Hey guys,

As a competitive player, I've tried magnus in a lot of different settings. However, I feel like Magnus is very situationnal and he is a warp charge wh** haha

Here is my point

1-Running a thousand son CAD is really expensive and force you to pay for taxes without giving you much WCs...

2-IMO, Magnus is a cool piece however he needs so many WCs to cast his D beam et his D shot that you have to pay for more psykers just to make sure he will be able to cast these since he can't make it by itself.... Which is really pricey for only 1 good piece ? My past games proved me that its only worth it versus few models armies and you will have a hard time versus any MSU...

3-I feel like the best way to run Magnus is with daemons. Obviously, you can get a lot of WCs from herald's anarchic, omniscient oracle or simply a daemon CAD. Giving cursed earth to the big guy feels great on paper ( 2++, re-roll 1's if you get a blessing on itself ), however getting this combo up can be very pricey in pts but also in WCs. Indeed, playing a screamer's star is most likely the best way to get cursed earth on a mobile unit to follow magnus. Unfortunately, this unit cost a lot and it forces you to play fateweaver as well just to make sure you will pass your grimoire so you don't lose the star too early... Don't get me wrong, this is a solid list ! But fateweaver doesn't get any chance to cast and a screamer's star doesn't do much offensively...

Brief, I don't think runnig a 895 + pts thousand son CAD and around 850 pts daemon will change the meta, especially in ITC where the 2++ re-roll 1's is nerfed and Force D is just fine...

4-Versus alpha strike, if you don't have the initative, you have to keep magnus in reserve because 4 centurions can get rid of him in 1 shooting phase if you are on the ground without your buffs.... Keeping Magnus in reserve is just so risky.... Can you imagine having a 650 pts model sleeping in reserve until turn 4 ? Especially when the rest of your list is based on him ? I don't think so...

5-Good point is, Magnus is almost immortal if you fly and you don't miss your blessing... T7 and 3++ re-roll 1's.... In snap fire ? Good luck ! However, if you are flying, you can't score objectives and you won't do much except casting a few powers ( Yeah Force D beam seems really good on paper but if you opponent isn't bad, he will consider your mouvement because you are Flying ( 12-24'', can't turn more then 90 degree ) and he will spread his army to avoid it... ). Magnus is simply a beast in close combat and flying the whole game is a waste IMO.

6-Let's compare Magnus with the Wraithknight and Stormsurge

The Wraithknight comes with GC ( FNP + stomp ) and Magnus is a FMC.

You can have 2 WKs for Magnus' points ( 295 / 650 )

You don't need more psykers to cast 2 Force D shots with the WK, since you have them for free, and you have twice his range.

WK has T8 and Magnus T7.

Magnus comes with a 200-300 pts taxe / WK doesnt come with a taxe

In close combat you can stomp Magnus ? What the f*** haha




Stormsurge has 2x f10 pa2 blast, 4D6 SMS, 2x flamers, 4x Force D and doesnt require more psykers to cast any of this.

Stormsurge is a GC ( FNP / Stompa ) Magnus is a FMC

Magnus has T7 W7 and Stormsurge has T6 W8 and they both rock a 4++

Marker drones gives Stormsurge CT 1 000 000 and ignore cover while Magnus needs to steal WCs from other psykers ( which cost way more )

Stormsurge can also stomps Magnus...

Stormsurge doesnt come with a 200-300 taxe, moreover you can take 2 without penality...




To conclude, all the taxes and the fact that Magnus is a unkillable model who needs way too many WCs to do the same domage as the other huge monsters, I would personally drop it to 500 points. This way, you can have something else than useless psykers with no WCs on the field !


Thanks guys !

Well you can just throw grimoire on him to make him near invincible but the point still stands he doesn't not contribute as much to the game for the price as he should. A lot of the hate for him comes form the over inflated value that StrD gets and the assumption that he automatically is flying with 2++ rerollable because of Blessing of Tzeentch and Cursed Earth following him which is not accurate. Many top competitive players i've talked to all say the same thing which is he is good and playable but not that competitive

This isn't an apples to apples scenario.

Magnus has line of sight to every single unit on the board and doesn't suffer perils. He's a level 5 Psyker so you should be casting a crapfest of spells every damn turn and laughing all the while.

Not to mention his initiative is insane and a 6 in CC means instant death, and he has 6 attacks. Charge with Magnus and the expected value of your instant deaths is nuts.

 Marmatag wrote:
This isn't an apples to apples scenario.

Magnus has line of sight to every single unit on the board and doesn't suffer perils. He's a level 5 Psyker so you should be casting a crapfest of spells every damn turn and laughing all the while.

Not to mention his initiative is insane and a 6 in CC means instant death.

How many warp charges does it take to cast the 5 powers he gets to cast? Even with manifesting on 2+ you still want to roll WCX+1 dice per power. So if he wants to cast his WC5 StrD beam, 3 WC3 powers (Flicker Fire, the 2nd Str D shot, and summon a chariot) and a WC1 he needs 20 warp charges to cast all those powers. Even if you rolled a 6 for the d6 WCs for the turn you still have to have bought 3 more Lvl 3 Psykers as a tax just so he can cast that crapfest of spells.

And yes his combat prowess is good but he has to trade in his ability to cast 12 of his 15 powers (since they are all witch fires) just to engage in close combat. And being on the ground make him prone to weapons that are actually a threat to him such as Force Weapons and Stomps.

You have to look at the big picture

I think Magnus is well costed.
He's not an auto include unless you're building around him and even then deploying him can be risky - as any insanely powerful points dump should be.

Lets not compare Magnus to Wraithknights and Stormsurges, both of them are undercosted, over powered and a slap in the face of proper MC armies. Magnus is a well costed Monstrous Creature where MCs belong.

 Marmatag wrote:
This isn't an apples to apples scenario.

Magnus has line of sight to every single unit on the board and doesn't suffer perils. He's a level 5 Psyker so you should be casting a crapfest of spells every damn turn and laughing all the while.

Not to mention his initiative is insane and a 6 in CC means instant death, and he has 6 attacks. Charge with Magnus and the expected value of your instant deaths is nuts.

Lvl 5 isnt enough for gaze of magnus which is 5 WCs... Spells aren't as good as weapons to inflict wounds... Just compare 2-3 spells with tau's fire power ... With Lvl 5 you won't even cast 2 force D shots while WK will gets 2x force D shots at you... Charging means you are on the ground and it also means to you are vulnerable unless you pay a lot of point to get that 2++ re-roll 1's which is a 2++/4++ in ITC. You also can't take down a Imperial knight neither a GC in close combat....


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 CrownAxe wrote:
Well you can just throw grimoire on him to make him near invincible but the point still stands he doesn't not contribute as much to the game for the price as he should. A lot of the hate for him comes form the over inflated value that StrD gets and the assumption that he automatically is flying with 2++ rerollable because of Blessing of Tzeentch and Cursed Earth following him which is not accurate. Many top competitive players i've talked to all say the same thing which is he is good and playable but not that competitive

I feel the same...

Thats funny because the two times ive used magnus so far he took one wound and more than made his points back. Cant say it was in tournament but theb lists were not weak by any means. Even his problem of not fitting in a thousand sons force is more of a problem with the thousand sons being way overcosted than magnus being the problem. I also think you are wrong on how hard it is to have cursed earth on him. Its rather easy and cheap as dirt. Keep in mind he is harnessing on 2+. That means you dont need many warp charges over what you are casting. His D beam is safe with 6 or 7 dice depending on how much you gamble. I hate to say this but I do not think people have really learned how to play Magnus yet. I think alot of people put way to much emphasis on his D powers and not enough on all the other things he can manifest, like a chariot per turn and turning centstars into your own gun battery, Syphon is there for a reason. Cast it. The other thing to keep in mind is Magnus is actually nasty in CC. Try setting him up to make a charge on a weakened target after he unleash's his powers.

Magnus, unlike most other LoW choices gets rapidly better the more support he has. He is mostly un-usable in a 1k sons list but that is what Ahriman is for. And once more, thats a problem with 1ksons and not Magnus. So, while Magnus is not the end all be all choice of LoW's but he is competitive and a lot of fun. He wont be sweeping tournaments but once more that has mostly to do with Tau and Eldar being so stanky than Magnus. I find him balanced for his price and have fun using him.

What attracts me to running Magnus isnt the D shots. Its everything else. The D shots are nice to have but they are not always what you should be casting. It takes a different way of playing and heavy micro in the psychic phase but that is to be expected in a army designed to dominate that phase of the game. Its also not everyones cup of tea. But for those of us who have a inner filing clerk screaming to get out, it can be a rewarding experience. Also remember dakka is a echo chamber of hyperbole and tends to only assign value to how good a model is in a meta that is dominated by Tau and Scat bilke spam. This is mostly not the case as I have seen. Most people are not running those ITC dump lists. Ive had to tone down my Magnus list for my local meta. If I ever get to a ITC tourney im sure I will get stuffed by the usual lists but that would be my fault for playing in that meta without a netlist of my own.

Table wrote:
Thats funny because the two times ive used magnus so far he took one wound and more than made his points back. Cant say it was in tournament but theb lists were not weak by any means. Even his problem of not fitting in a thousand sons force is more of a problem with the thousand sons being way overcosted than magnus being the problem. I also think you are wrong on how hard it is to have cursed earth on him. Its rather easy and cheap as dirt. Keep in mind he is harnessing on 2+. That means you dont need many warp charges over what you are casting. His D beam is safe with 6 or 7 dice depending on how much you gamble. I hate to say this but I do not think people have really learned how to play Magnus yet. I think alot of people put way to much emphasis on his D powers and not enough on all the other things he can manifest, like a chariot per turn and turning centstars into your own gun battery, Syphon is there for a reason. Cast it. The other thing to keep in mind is Magnus is actually nasty in CC. Try setting him up to make a charge on a weakened target after he unleash's his powers.

Magnus, unlike most other LoW choices gets rapidly better the more support he has. He is mostly un-usable in a 1k sons list but that is what Ahriman is for. And once more, thats a problem with 1ksons and not Magnus. So, while Magnus is not the end all be all choice of LoW's but he is competitive and a lot of fun. He wont be sweeping tournaments but once more that has mostly to do with Tau and Eldar being so stanky than Magnus. I find him balanced for his price and have fun using him.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, this is what this thread is for IMO harnessing a few mediocre powers do not equivalent the fire power of the actual meta, especially when magnus comes with a 300 pts taxe... but I respect your POV

alex0911 wrote:

Table wrote:
Thats funny because the two times ive used magnus so far he took one wound and more than made his points back. Cant say it was in tournament but theb lists were not weak by any means. Even his problem of not fitting in a thousand sons force is more of a problem with the thousand sons being way overcosted than magnus being the problem. I also think you are wrong on how hard it is to have cursed earth on him. Its rather easy and cheap as dirt. Keep in mind he is harnessing on 2+. That means you dont need many warp charges over what you are casting. His D beam is safe with 6 or 7 dice depending on how much you gamble. I hate to say this but I do not think people have really learned how to play Magnus yet. I think alot of people put way to much emphasis on his D powers and not enough on all the other things he can manifest, like a chariot per turn and turning centstars into your own gun battery, Syphon is there for a reason. Cast it. The other thing to keep in mind is Magnus is actually nasty in CC. Try setting him up to make a charge on a weakened target after he unleash's his powers.

Magnus, unlike most other LoW choices gets rapidly better the more support he has. He is mostly un-usable in a 1k sons list but that is what Ahriman is for. And once more, thats a problem with 1ksons and not Magnus. So, while Magnus is not the end all be all choice of LoW's but he is competitive and a lot of fun. He wont be sweeping tournaments but once more that has mostly to do with Tau and Eldar being so stanky than Magnus. I find him balanced for his price and have fun using him.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, this is what this thread is for IMO harnessing a few mediocre powers do not equivalent the fire power of the actual meta, especially when magnus comes with a 300 pts taxe... but I respect your POV

I appended the post above with additional information to help illustrate my opinion and experiences thus far. Mileage may vary of course.

Table wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Table wrote:
Thats funny because the two times ive used magnus so far he took one wound and more than made his points back. Cant say it was in tournament but theb lists were not weak by any means. Even his problem of not fitting in a thousand sons force is more of a problem with the thousand sons being way overcosted than magnus being the problem. I also think you are wrong on how hard it is to have cursed earth on him. Its rather easy and cheap as dirt. Keep in mind he is harnessing on 2+. That means you dont need many warp charges over what you are casting. His D beam is safe with 6 or 7 dice depending on how much you gamble. I hate to say this but I do not think people have really learned how to play Magnus yet. I think alot of people put way to much emphasis on his D powers and not enough on all the other things he can manifest, like a chariot per turn and turning centstars into your own gun battery, Syphon is there for a reason. Cast it. The other thing to keep in mind is Magnus is actually nasty in CC. Try setting him up to make a charge on a weakened target after he unleash's his powers.

Magnus, unlike most other LoW choices gets rapidly better the more support he has. He is mostly un-usable in a 1k sons list but that is what Ahriman is for. And once more, thats a problem with 1ksons and not Magnus. So, while Magnus is not the end all be all choice of LoW's but he is competitive and a lot of fun. He wont be sweeping tournaments but once more that has mostly to do with Tau and Eldar being so stanky than Magnus. I find him balanced for his price and have fun using him.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, this is what this thread is for IMO harnessing a few mediocre powers do not equivalent the fire power of the actual meta, especially when magnus comes with a 300 pts taxe... but I respect your POV

I appended the post above with additional information to help illustrate my opinion and experiences thus far. Mileage may vary of course.

Like you said, he has a few really good match up and a burning chariot is no joke. However, unless you are in range of a centurion star ( which is easy to avoid with gate of infinity ) or any other shooting deathstars, this isnt as good as the fire power of competitive armies... Moreover, deathstars dont win tournament anymore, its all about mobility, objective secured and durability ^^ But yes, casting D shots might not be worth it

I dont think Magnus is going to be shifting the tourney meta. But he may get a few lucky placements. But if pressed to say, I would say hes costed well by GW. A shocking display really and the fact it comes ona CSM unit gives me hope for the faction.

He is strong when played well, has a few bad match ups and requires an army be built around him.To bad they messed up his legion so badly.

He's around right. You're comparing him to WK and stormsurges. It's like comparing Huron to ST Celestine. Well, maybe 600.

With no way to get out of tarpits or access to things like biomancy/relics for more cc attacks he's stuck flying. Sure, he's a decent enough gunship, but hardly 650p worth, not even close.

I can agree that his problems are two-fold, since 1ksons is grossly overcosted from the get-go and his price point makes him into another burden to carry, he's a really bad fit for an 1ksons army. Running him in a casual tzeentch daemons army is fine though since you can much more cheaply get the wc needed to make use of him.
I ran a 4k point 1ksons vs DA match last week. It was really painful... treason helped a lot even though he had mostly msu with some plasma/melta scattered about. Grossly out-maneuvered and outmanned, i had all my scarabs/rubrics bogged down in tacs/bikers turn 2 and decided to land magnus turn 3. Bad mistake, he got jumped in a lucky assault and was dead by the end of t4, throwing a DP into the mix didnt help either.. though he made Belial into a spawn which was fun

He's an awkward damon prince. Too pricey and too much survivability for casual play, too pricey, too weak and fragile by far for competitive play.
Though, its not surprising 1ks turned into the weakest legion due to being written by a space wolf player...

Yonasu wrote:
With no way to get out of tarpits or access to things like biomancy/relics for more cc attacks he's stuck flying. Sure, he's a decent enough gunship, but hardly 650p worth, not even close.

I can agree that his problems are two-fold, since 1ksons is grossly overcosted from the get-go and his price point makes him into another burden to carry, he's a really bad fit for an 1ksons army. Running him in a casual tzeentch daemons army is fine though since you can much more cheaply get the wc needed to make use of him.
I ran a 4k point 1ksons vs DA match last week. It was really painful... treason helped a lot even though he had mostly msu with some plasma/melta scattered about. Grossly out-maneuvered and outmanned, i had all my scarabs/rubrics bogged down in tacs/bikers turn 2 and decided to land magnus turn 3. Bad mistake, he got jumped in a lucky assault and was dead by the end of t4, throwing a DP into the mix didnt help either.. though he made Belial into a spawn which was fun

He's an awkward damon prince. Too pricey and too much survivability for casual play, too pricey, too weak and fragile by far for competitive play.
Though, its not surprising 1ks turned into the weakest legion due to being written by a space wolf player...

Indeed, players who actually tried it know that you can't play him effectively in a list who lacks WCs... However, getting those extra WCs up and making the rest of your army a WC's bank is it really worth it to cast tzeentch / change powers ? Don't get me wrong, those spells are great but simply not as good as taus / eldars firepower / mobility IMO.


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 CrownAxe wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This isn't an apples to apples scenario.

Magnus has line of sight to every single unit on the board and doesn't suffer perils. He's a level 5 Psyker so you should be casting a crapfest of spells every damn turn and laughing all the while.

Not to mention his initiative is insane and a 6 in CC means instant death.

How many warp charges does it take to cast the 5 powers he gets to cast? Even with manifesting on 2+ you still want to roll WCX+1 dice per power. So if he wants to cast his WC5 StrD beam, 3 WC3 powers (Flicker Fire, the 2nd Str D shot, and summon a chariot) and a WC1 he needs 20 warp charges to cast all those powers. Even if you rolled a 6 for the d6 WCs for the turn you still have to have bought 3 more Lvl 3 Psykers as a tax just so he can cast that crapfest of spells.

And yes his combat prowess is good but he has to trade in his ability to cast 12 of his 15 powers (since they are all witch fires) just to engage in close combat. And being on the ground make him prone to weapons that are actually a threat to him such as Force Weapons and Stomps.

You have to look at the big picture

I think you are right.

Given how well he harnesses and uses powers, his worth amplifies the more psychic dice your generate, and diminishes the less psychic dice you generate. In effect, he is a focus, with other forces channelling the power they pay for through him for added bonus. In this way, it's extremely difficult to quantify his power. Magnus will be more powerful in a 2000 point game than he will in a 1500 point game.

I think an accurate cost for him would be 450 + 25 per psychic level mastery in your army, to a maximum of 800 points. However, I really don't like variable costs like that, so I think sticking him at 650 is more appropriate, as it takes a heavy investment to be worth it, but that investment can backfire spectacularly.

On a side note, the stormsurge needs other units in order to have D weapons. Plus if he fires two blasts he can't stomp and magnus can beat him to pieces even better.

Jorim wrote:
On a side note, the stormsurge needs other units in order to have D weapons. Plus if he fires two blasts he can't stomp and magnus can beat him to pieces even better.

Most of the time, stomping as a Stormsurge isnt needed because most armies are shooting in 40k and Stormsurge excelled at it. The question is, have you ever seen a Stormsurge which stays in his deployment zone being charged ? Since all the Tau's army gets to overwatch you, can use maker drones and the +1 BS while doing it, very few people have ever enjoy it. Some says it is still a legend

Yonasu wrote:

He's an awkward damon prince. Too pricey and too much survivability for casual play, too pricey, too weak and fragile by far for competitive play.
Though, its not surprising 1ks turned into the weakest legion due to being written by a space wolf player...

Uh... What? Yeah, 1ksons are not as strong as the top-tier legions, but they're still pretty good compared to the weaker options. You really think you could get more use out of the Iron Warriors?
1ksons got significantly better with the new book, and they're one of the better legions if you happen to have a lot of MEQ in your area. (Which, incidentally, a lot of players do. MEQ is pretty common, after all.)

Our local iron warrior player got to top tables in a 10 man tourney vs pretty powerful lists.

its a hard one, we have things at both ends of the spectrum, the wraithknight being woefully undercosted, and the GMC greater deamons being woefully over costed, magnus sits in the middle, he should be a GMC, or should be less points, but then we add flght and its gets even more murky what his cost should be.

EW, immune to POTW etc. drive that cost up even more, but based on my own experience with the game, other units, I feel 650 is too much, id put him at the 500-575 mark, but its chaos, so its gonna be overcosted

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
This isn't an apples to apples scenario.

Magnus has line of sight to every single unit on the board and doesn't suffer perils. He's a level 5 Psyker so you should be casting a crapfest of spells every damn turn and laughing all the while.

Not to mention his initiative is insane and a 6 in CC means instant death.

How many warp charges does it take to cast the 5 powers he gets to cast? Even with manifesting on 2+ you still want to roll WCX+1 dice per power. So if he wants to cast his WC5 StrD beam, 3 WC3 powers (Flicker Fire, the 2nd Str D shot, and summon a chariot) and a WC1 he needs 20 warp charges to cast all those powers. Even if you rolled a 6 for the d6 WCs for the turn you still have to have bought 3 more Lvl 3 Psykers as a tax just so he can cast that crapfest of spells.

And yes his combat prowess is good but he has to trade in his ability to cast 12 of his 15 powers (since they are all witch fires) just to engage in close combat. And being on the ground make him prone to weapons that are actually a threat to him such as Force Weapons and Stomps.

You have to look at the big picture

You could make the case that Tzeentch powers leave something to be desired. I don't disagree. If he had a good buff (blessing), that could be applied to other units, that'd be interesting.

But Magnus' individual stats are strong. And if he's the only psyker in your army... I think you're missing the point of bringing something like Magnus.

He can be ignored and costs 650 points. He's not op.

 Jaxler wrote:
He can be ignored and costs 650 points. He's not op.

He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

I think he's pretty well-costed.

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

I'd like to point out that against 2 WKs, Magnus wins most of the time. He just flies up, D-beams one or both of them, uses one of them to shoot at the other, then D-shots whichever one is left standing. It may take 2 turns, but he will get his points back in this scenario.
Only the WKs going first would shift the balance, but then you just reserve Magnus. Not ideal, but gives you an idea of where Magnus stands against 2 WKs

And as for FMCs being OMG TFG OP, I haven't seen any armies with FMCs winning any major tourneys lately.
Yes many armies struggle against FMCs, but that does mean others can't plink them out of the skies.

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Can we note what a strange distribution this poll has.

Also, OP, why even ask questions if you don't want answers?

 Galef wrote:
I'd like to point out that against 2 WKs, Magnus wins most of the time. He just flies up, D-beams one or both of them, uses one of them to shoot at the other, then D-shots whichever one is left standing. It may take 2 turns, but he will get his points back in this scenario.
Only the WKs going first would shift the balance, but then you just reserve Magnus. Not ideal, but gives you an idea of where Magnus stands against 2 WKs

And as for FMCs being OMG TFG OP, I haven't seen any armies with FMCs winning any major tourneys lately.
Yes many armies struggle against FMCs, but that does mean others can't plink them out of the skies.

Your senario doesnt work because you cant hit both at the time if the other guy isnt bad, plus you just have to move up the WK so magnus flies out of range so you get 2 rounds of free shooting while magnus his making his way back.

Like you stated, FMC can t score and they haven t been winning much lately...

If you kill the rest, magnus won t cast much and won t score anything...

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

I didn't say 1K. I said more than 750.


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alex0911 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I'd like to point out that against 2 WKs, Magnus wins most of the time. He just flies up, D-beams one or both of them, uses one of them to shoot at the other, then D-shots whichever one is left standing. It may take 2 turns, but he will get his points back in this scenario.
Only the WKs going first would shift the balance, but then you just reserve Magnus. Not ideal, but gives you an idea of where Magnus stands against 2 WKs

And as for FMCs being OMG TFG OP, I haven't seen any armies with FMCs winning any major tourneys lately.
Yes many armies struggle against FMCs, but that does mean others can't plink them out of the skies.

Your senario doesnt work because you cant hit both at the time if the other guy isnt bad, plus you just have to move up the WK so magnus flies out of range so you get 2 rounds of free shooting while magnus his making his way back.

Like you stated, FMC can t score and they haven t been winning much lately...

If you kill the rest, magnus won t cast much and won t score anything...

Big if.

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Well, the "original sin" is into designing MC with 2+ armour AND W>3 AND an invulnerable save >5+ AND T>5.
All together is just too much.

Gee I do wonder who designed something like this first.

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Thats right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

Also LOL at people voting more then 750. I guess all we should be able to play is 1 sorcerer, magnus and 2x cultists squad. I m sure we can beat 2x stormsurges + riptides wing or biker spam + WK easily with that list. Let s stay serious here, less then 400 is .... But so is more then 750... You have to take a look at the whole picture ( taxes, lack of WCs, no scoring, etc. ) And not only magnus stats line.

No. Not at all. There are already too many units that are too durable for their cost in 40K. Feth "looking at the whole picture". Tau can whine about how the rest of their army are T3 4+ chumpos, but that doesn't make their immortal undercosted suits any less immortal. You want an immortal sky god, that needs to be a HUGE chunk of points.

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Thats right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

Also LOL at people voting more then 750. I guess all we should be able to play is 1 sorcerer, magnus and 2x cultists squad. I m sure we can beat 2x stormsurges + riptides wing or biker spam + WK easily with that list. Let s stay serious here, less then 400 is .... But so is more then 750... You have to take a look at the whole picture ( taxes, lack of WCs, no scoring, etc. ) And not only magnus stats line.

Fair. I voted 650. There isn't enough data on his performance, and possible combos, to see. Also, the Thousand Sons will continue to get a lot of work, and there are updates that they can make, as a part of 8e, which favor them. If they EVER change the Tzeentch powers in any way shape or form for the better that is a huge buff to Magnus.

And seriously, there are some criminally overcosted independent characters, far more egregious point totals for what you get compared to Magnus.

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There's a lot of problems. How do you cost MCs in general when they have a laundry list of advantages over vehicles?

Thats right


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

alex0911 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
He's more than 750 because he's an FMC. Pay for your immortality.

Flying means no charge, 1 vector strike and a waste of points, thanks but yeah...

Hard to hit, chief.

Indeed, so having an immortal thing in the air means we should pay 1k point without considering the dommage input and his impact on the game ? Thanks for sharing lol

Quite a leap from 650 -> 1,000 points isn't it?

And you can't have both insane damage and insane survivability...

And LOL at people voting less than 400 points. A little lower and you'd see Kill Team Magnus. GW, never let this community anywhere near game balance.

Also LOL at people voting more then 750. I guess all we should be able to play is 1 sorcerer, magnus and 2x cultists squad. I m sure we can beat 2x stormsurges + riptides wing or biker spam + WK easily with that list. Let s stay serious here, less then 400 is .... But so is more then 750... You have to take a look at the whole picture ( taxes, lack of WCs, no scoring, etc. ) And not only magnus stats line.

Fair. I voted 650. There isn't enough data on his performance, and possible combos, to see. Also, the Thousand Sons will continue to get a lot of work, and there are updates that they can make, as a part of 8e, which favor them. If they EVER change the Tzeentch powers in any way shape or form for the better that is a huge buff to Magnus.

maybe you are right, 650 looks like the most popular answer by the community.

He's fine as is he's over coated.
Also Martel complaining about chaos again I Kean damn are you NAD chaos rules are starting to reflect our fluff I mean shock horror loyalist armies will struggle to deal with a daemon primarch I can't wait til they release mortarian I hope they make him next to impossible for blood angels to kill so I can laugh at you

Fluff arguments never end. Ever read BA fluff?

Yes I have they are a bunch of wannabe emo world eaters

Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

 Traditio wrote:
Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

That's not how pricing works.

Magnus wins over the (underpriced) Wraith Knights because he's exactly what WK's have trouble facing; Fliers with access to Strenght D.
You can pretty much put anything that flies and has high S AP1/3 shooting on the table, and it will beat the WK's.

As for Magnus costing 1500 pts, I can only assume that you're trolling or "joking". He can't even reliably cast his own power if there's no other psykers around to funnel warp charges into him.
Suddently you're looking at 2000 pts for ...1 Strenght D beam and 1 Strenght D shot. What a scary combined shooting and psychic phase that is ...not.

Edit: Wait, you're that guy who wanted to bann Magnus right? Guess I just wasted my time typing this reply...

 MinscS2 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

That's not how pricing works.

Magnus wins over the (underpriced) Wraith Knights because he's exactly what WK's have trouble facing; Fliers with access to Strenght D.
You can pretty much put anything that flies and has high S AP1/3 shooting on the table, and it will beat the WK's.

As for Magnus costing 1500 pts, I can only assume that you're trolling or "joking". He can't even reliably cast his own power if there's no other psykers around to funnel warp charges into him.
Suddently you're looking at 2000 pts for ...1 Strenght D beam and 1 Strenght D shot. What a scary combined shooting and psychic phase that is ...not.

1. That's not the only psychic power he has access to.

2. He's practically indestructible.

If you put Magnus against 1500 points of tactical marines, Magnus still probably wouldn't go down over the course of a game. He'd kill a whole bunch of tactical marines, though.

700 point wraithknight. 1500 point Magnus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To put things in perspective: Would you rather have 8 or so Shadow Captain Shrikes? Or 1 Magnus?

 Traditio wrote:
Actually, there you have it, straight from the mouth of Galef.

Magnus wins against 2 wraithknights most of the time.

A wraithknight, if it were fairly costed, should cost more than 400 ppm base.

Therefore, Magnus should cost more than 800 points.

Imho, the 400 point estimate for a wraithknight is too low. 700 points for a wraithknight. 1500 points for Magnus.

From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

Dakka Flyrants are OP.

There's a reason why Tyrranid players consider them an auto-include and try to spam as many of them as possible.

The Tyrranids codex as a whole is terrible, but dakka flyrants are as OP as wraithknights and riptides.

Flyrants are another one of those models that should cost 600+ points.

 Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Then they can just sit on objectives while magnus floats around plinking off conscripts with his D beam.
He can do that all game if he wants. The conscripts don't really mind. They still win.

And for the people who are going to say: "But tacticals vs. Magnus; here we go again with another lame Traditio false comparison!"

Ok. Suppose I have a fairly well balanced 1500 point space marine army replete with devastators, assault marines, tactical marines, let's say a predator, a vindicator, a thunderfire cannon....pfffffft...you get the idea. A well balanced 1500 point space marine list.

Magnus still probably won't go down. He will tear through some space marines, though.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

Dakka Flyrants are OP.

There's a reason why Tyrranid players consider them an auto-include and try to spam as many of them as possible.

The Tyrranids codex as a whole is terrible, but dakka flyrants are as OP as wraithknights and riptides.

Flyrants are another one of those models that should cost 600+ points.

Tradito, not everything you can't handle is OP. You play Space Marines, right? You have tanks that are excellent solutions to Flyrants, and more than enough Alpha-Strike capability to wipe one out if you get turn one.

Edit: And yes, he'll tear through Space Marines. but probably not 650 points of them, and even if he does, the Daemon army is playing with under 1,000 points of objective grabbers. Play to the mission and win.

Arson Fire wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Then they can just sit on objectives while magnus floats around plinking off conscripts with his D beam.
He can do that all game if he wants. The conscripts don't really mind. They still win.

Are you people really that myopic?

The d beam isn't the only psychic power that Magnus knows. He has access to like 15 different psychic powers, his chances of pulling off those psychic powers with minimal warp charges is a veritable certainty, and he CAN'T roll perils.

Magnus should be so costed that he should be practically unusable outside of very high points (4000+) games.

Can Beams even hit flying targets?

If not, Magnus only has 1 Str D attack at his disposal, and due to Jink it's *very* unlikely he'll kill one Flyrant a turn. (8,3%).

Ergo, Magnus is OP.
Flyrants beat Magnus.
Tyranids are twice as OP as Magnus.
Tyranids rule the galaxy?

The d beam isn't the only psychic power that Magnus knows. He has access to like 15 different psychic powers, his chances of pulling off those psychic powers with minimal warp charges is a veritable certainty, and he CAN'T roll perils.

You should read up on what Powers Magnus has at his disposal, they're really not that impressive outside of the Str D shot, Str D Beam, Treason of Tzeentch, Flickering Fire and possibly Degeneration or summoning a Chariot.
You might want to toss in Force there so he get's a 3++ but that's about it. The chance of him getting the majority of theese off without an external source of Warp Charges? Slimm & None.

Good point. Unless they changed it in the FAQ, beams explicitly say they cannot hit swooping FMCs.
Tyranid master race confirmed.

JNAProductions wrote:Tradito, not everything you can't handle is OP.

If most codex entries can't handle it, it's op.

If I have to bring a very specific thing or combination of things just to prepare for the off-chance that I just so happen to see one, then yes, it's OP.

Edit: And yes, he'll tear through Space Marines. but probably not 650 points of them, and even if he does, the Daemon army is playing with under 1,000 points of objective grabbers. Play to the mission and win.

Depending on what the space marine player brings? He very easily could tear through 650 points of them between close combat and the psychic phase over the course of 5-7 turns.

Ah, but if a Flyrant jinks, it neuters its shooting. So jinking might as well be dead for the purposes of one turn, at least, and besides, they do it with one dead in two turns anyway.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Ah, but if a Flyrant jinks, it neuters its shooting. So jinking might as well be dead for the purposes of one turn, at least, and besides, they do it with one dead in two turns anyway.

Except, it doesn't really "neuter" its shooting. That's how OP flyrants are.

12/1 X 1/6 = 2/1

10/1 X 1/6 = 10/6

You're still likely to get 3-4 hits with the twin-linked devourers even after you jink. Not to mention the free vector strike bull gak in the movement phase.

Ah, but if a Flyrant jinks, it neuters its shooting. So jinking might as well be dead for the purposes of one turn, at least, and besides, they do it with one dead in two turns anyway.

True, but they don't even have to jink, since it's pretty safe to play the odds; Only a 6 will kill it anyway.

Tyranids master race confirmed.

Now for the real question in this topic; How many points is a Flyrant really worth?

It's pretty piss-poor compared to its regular shooting.

In addition, Vector Strike counts as firing a weapon, so it loses you 6 shots.

 Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:From another point of view, 50 conscripts with a ministorum priest wins against Magnus most of the time. He's never breaking away from that combat.

That's only 175 points, and soundly neuters Magnus for the game. So clearly he must be worth less than that.

Or maybe the conscript blob should be worth over 650 points.

If your conscript blob and priest can tie up Magnus in close combat, then the person playing Magnus needs to git gud.

Then they can just sit on objectives while magnus floats around plinking off conscripts with his D beam.
He can do that all game if he wants. The conscripts don't really mind. They still win.

Are you people really that myopic?

The d beam isn't the only psychic power that Magnus knows. He has access to like 15 different psychic powers, his chances of pulling off those psychic powers with minimal warp charges is a veritable certainty, and he CAN'T roll perils.

Magnus should be so costed that he should be practically unusable outside of very high points (4000+) games.

Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs... You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's pretty piss-poor compared to its regular shooting.

Oh, sure. It goes from "Wow, OP fantastic shooting" to "Eh, not bad. Better than firing a single scatter laser."

In addition, Vector Strike counts as firing a weapon, so it loses you 6 shots.

I don't follow. Where in the rules does it say that you can't vector strike and then fire your guns in the shooting phase?

Hey-you have a good 40% chance of getting off the D-Beam with 5 dice!

Although the D-Shot is a good 96-97% chance of going off with just 5. Still, that's only one model dead a turn.

Edit: Read the Vector Strike rules. It counts as firing a gun. So you can only fire one in the following phase.

alex09 wrote:Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs...

You harness on a 2+ and can't roll perils. You also have excellent close combat capabilities.

Git gud.

You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?

The WK and SS are hideously underpriced and OP. They should both cost way more than they do now.

 Traditio wrote:

alex09 wrote:Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs...

You harness on a 2+ and can't roll perils. You also have excellent close combat capabilities.

Git gud.

You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?

The WK and SS are hideously underpriced and OP. They should both cost way more than they do now.

Yes, close combat capabilities that WILL get you tar-pitted and get rid of your "immortality".

JNAProductions wrote:Yes, close combat capabilities that WILL get you tar-pitted and get rid of your "immortality".

1. Magnus doesn't magically lose his invuln while in close combat.

2. He also doesn't lose the ability to cast psychic powers while in close combat.

3. Even on the ground, good luck catching him. He moves 12 inches in the movement phase and ignores terrain.

Magnus is more difficult to tarpit than a wraithknight.

 Traditio wrote:

JNAProductions wrote:Yes, close combat capabilities that WILL get you tar-pitted and get rid of your "immortality".

1. Magnus doesn't magically lose his invuln while in close combat.

2. He also doesn't lose the ability to cast psychic powers while in close combat.

3. Even on the ground, good luck catching him. He moves 12 inches in the movement phase and ignores terrain.

Magnus is more difficult to tarpit than a wraithknight.

1-No, but now anyone can hit him on their normal BS.

2-12 out of 15 of his powers, I believe, are witchfires. So yes-he DOES lose the ability to cast most of his powers in CC.

3-Assault Marines. Vanguard Veterans. Plague Drones. Dreadknights. Bikes of any sort...

JNAProductions wrote:1-No, but now anyone can hit him on their normal BS.

So what? You still have to roll to hit, to wound and then by pass his save. And then, once all of that happens, you have to survive his round of attacks, not fail your leadership check to fall back and/or get swept.

Good luck on that one.

2-12 out of 15 of his powers, I believe, are witchfires. So yes-he DOES lose the ability to cast most of his powers in CC.

He has non-witchfire psychic powers.

3-Assault Marines. Vanguard Veterans. Plague Drones. Dreadknights. Bikes of any sort...

Lol. Sure. Because any of those things is going to be able to beat Magnus in close combat...or even hold him for a turn or two. Or wound him, for that matter.

I mean, sure, JNA, now that you mention it, if I ever face Magnus, let me make sure that I bring my ravenguard vanguard veterans. They'll mess him up real nice. #Sarcasm.

Seriously, dude. Do you even read the stuff that you type before hitting the "submit" button?

Utterly ridiculous.

Skitarii Vanguard kill him easily if he's on the ground. I've done the math before. It takes only 2 max squads of Vanguard to one-turn kill him. That's 200 points. 200 points. (Edit: Okay, technically it takes 20.16 Vanguard. But let's go overboard and take 3 squads! Yeah, that'll kill him dead.)

Yes, he does! But his witchfires are the really scary ones. So if he's in close combat, he's pretty damn neutered.

And all it takes is a squad of maybe 8 to tie him up for a turn. They don't have to wound him-just feed him some cheap unit every turn, and he won't be able to do much of anything. Or tie him up for long enough for your powerful stuff to come mess him up. There are answers.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Skitarii Vanguard kill him easily if he's on the ground. I've done the math before. It takes only 2 max squads of Vanguard to one-turn kill him. That's 200 points. 200 points. (Edit: Okay, technically it takes 20.16 Vanguard. But let's go overboard and take 3 squads! Yeah, that'll kill him dead.)

The problem with postings like this is that you are making unreasonable assumptions. Why would Magnus be on the ground? If he's on the ground, why would he be within range?

If you have to make all sorts of unlikely assumptions, then what you are saying isn't reasonable.

And even if it were, so the feth what? Skitarri vanguard is one unit in one codex. How many codex entries are there in the game?

Yes, he does! But his witchfires are the really scary ones. So if he's in close combat, he's pretty damn neutered.

What's "scary" is his durability. The fact that he's that he's practically indestructible and has more damage dealing capacity than a wraithknight: that's what makes him OP.

And all it takes is a squad of maybe 8 to tie him up for a turn. They don't have to wound him-just feed him some cheap unit every turn, and he won't be able to do much of anything. Or tie him up for long enough for your powerful stuff to come mess him up. There are answers.

Again, you're just making unreasonable assumptions here.

You were the one who just said he's on the ground! I'll find the quote...

 Traditio wrote:

alex09 wrote:Ouf you obviously never played magnus... Grab your dices and have fun casting powers with 5 WCs...

You harness on a 2+ and can't roll perils. You also have excellent close combat capabilities.

Git gud.

You will figure out pretty fast that it's not as good as shooting especially when you have to pay for extra psykers to steal their WCs and make them useless. I would like to hear what you think of the WK or SS as well ? Should we play them only in 4k + games as well ?

The WK and SS are hideously underpriced and OP. They should both cost way more than they do now.

Excellent CC capabilities don't matter unless you're on the ground.

In addition, Sterngaurd Veterans-a unit from YOUR CODEX OF CHOICE-do much the similar thing.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Skitarii Vanguard kill him easily if he's on the ground. I've done the math before. It takes only 2 max squads of Vanguard to one-turn kill him. That's 200 points. 200 points. (Edit: Okay, technically it takes 20.16 Vanguard. But let's go overboard and take 3 squads! Yeah, that'll kill him dead.)

Yes, he does! But his witchfires are the really scary ones. So if he's in close combat, he's pretty damn neutered.

And all it takes is a squad of maybe 8 to tie him up for a turn. They don't have to wound him-just feed him some cheap unit every turn, and he won't be able to do much of anything. Or tie him up for long enough for your powerful stuff to come mess him up. There are answers.

Dude let it go, Traditio is right, with 5 WCs you can easily cast 12 powers, cultists aren't a dumb taxe to run magnus ( they are obviously much better than scatter bikes ), Magnus can't be kill on the ground especially versus imperial knights or any stomps because magnus is immortal...
#really?

Even 4 centurions can kill magnus in a alpha strike... and the major issue is that you have to pay so many extra WCs to make magnus very strong and those psykers do nothing on the battlefield... Just like your cultists...

Moreover, if you kill the other psykers, magnus is really a piece of gak which can only fire 1 D shot at 650 pts haha

Honestly, after reading all the posts, and considering the whole picture, I think magnus is worth 600 pts.

alex0911 wrote:Dude let it go, Traditio is right, with 5 WCs you can easily cast 12 powers, cultists aren't a dumb taxe to run magnus ( they are obviously much better than scatter bikes ), Magnus can't be kill on the ground especially versus imperial knights or any stomps because magnus is immortal...
#really?

Yeah, if that's what you got from my posting, then you should probably write to your congressman about the horrible reading education in your district.

#JustSaying

Even 4 centurions can kill magnus in a alpha strike

Assuming that the opponent is running centurions, is running them in such a way as to be able to alpha strike them AND gets turn 1.

You can't make those assumptions.

.. and the major issue is that you have to pay so many extra WCs to make magnus very strong and those psykers do nothing on the battlefield... Just like your cultists...

Moreover, if you kill the other psykers, magnus is really a piece of gak which can only fire 1 D shot at 650 pts haha

Honestly, after reading all the posts, and considering the whole picture, I think magnus is worth 600 pts.

If the 1 d-shot is the only possible use that you can think of for Magnus, then you're just a bad player. Git gud.

So what would YOU use him for? Apparently, he should never touch the ground, so on his own, you can only consistently get off one WC 3 power, which admittedly can be the Flickering Fire for horde control or the D-Shot for big stuff.

Oh, wait, he can also Vector strike! So that's one extra S8 AP2 hit.

And... What else, exactly?

Edit: Also, if your opponent is bringing Magnus, I'd expect you to bring your A-Game as well. Magnus is not the sort of thing you spring unexpected on an opponent-that's just rude. So yes, you probably SHOULD be fielding Centurions or something similar.

 Traditio wrote:

alex0911 wrote:Dude let it go, Traditio is right, with 5 WCs you can easily cast 12 powers, cultists aren't a dumb taxe to run magnus ( they are obviously much better than scatter bikes ), Magnus can't be kill on the ground especially versus imperial knights or any stomps because magnus is immortal...
#really?

Yeah, if that's what you got from my posting, then you should probably write to your congressman about the horrible reading education in your district.

#JustSaying

Even 4 centurions can kill magnus in a alpha strike

Assuming that the opponent is running centurions, is running them in such a way as to be able to alpha strike them AND gets turn 1.

You can't make those assumptions.

.. and the major issue is that you have to pay so many extra WCs to make magnus very strong and those psykers do nothing on the battlefield... Just like your cultists...

Moreover, if you kill the other psykers, magnus is really a piece of gak which can only fire 1 D shot at 650 pts haha

Honestly, after reading all the posts, and considering the whole picture, I think magnus is worth 600 pts.

If the 1 d-shot is the only possible use that you can think of for Magnus, then you're just a bad player. Git gud.

I won a few GTs for the reccord, ofc the D shot isnt everything, in fact, taking control of an ennemy unit is better in many occasions. However, you can't claim that casting 1 normal beam or str 6 witchfire d6 assault or a template is worth 650 pts ?

What I'm saying is, stop only looking at Magnus stats line and take a look at the taxes, the WC's addiction of magnus and the fact that flying a whole game sucks since you waste your CC ability and can't score any objectives.

By the way, don't play the smarty pants guy which knows everything when you are obviously thinking that casting 4-5 powers is better then the firepower that tau can bring for the same points.

Moreover, magnus can be easily ignored which is a bit sacarstic for a 650 pts piece. If he gets on the ground, just make sure to tight him up with worthless units....

Please show me your list with magnus and you might discover that he is hard to use and I can do better any days with taus / eldars / necrons.

In fact, pure daemon is so much better than magnus with omniscient oracles and herald s anarchic.

Open your eyes

Just for discussion, don't forget Devolution and Treason are both very good spells against Flyrant spam.

I would say Table is rather perceptive when he said people have not really learned how to play Magnus yet. Either with or against.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Just for discussion, don't forget Devolution and Treason are both very good spells against Flyrant spam.

I would say Table is rather perceptive when he said people have not really learned how to play Magnus yet. Either with or against.

Flyrant spam isnt a thing anymore...

That list hasn't won any tournaments lately and it won't get any better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:[/

Magnus is a great unit don't get me wrong ! But he isnt as good as other things we see often in competitive.


[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here was my take on Magnus FYI Traditio

Still not good enough to beat top lists


1850

CAD Thousand Son 895

Sorcerer Mark of Tzeentch, Lvl 3, 125

Cultists x10 Mark of tzeentch 60

Cultists x10 Mark of tzeentch 60

Magnus the red 650




Daemon CAD 540

Fateweaver 300

Blue horrors x11 55
Blue horrors x11 55
Blue horrors x11 55

Screamers x3 75



Herald Anarchic 415

Herald Lvl 3 Tzeentch, Disc, Grimoire 150
Herald Lvl 3 Tzeentch, Disc, Paradox 145
Herald Lvl 3 Tzeentch, Disc 120


Can you do better Mr Cocky ?

alex0911 wrote:
Flyrant spam isnt a thing anymore...

That list hasn't won any tournaments lately and it won't get any better.

That really wasn't the point.

I think he's costed pretty accurately.

 Melissia wrote:
I think he's costed pretty accurately.

I think so too ( 600-650 IMO )

I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.

there are several FMCs and MCs that are very over costed. and Magnus isn't actually very durable until you stuff assuming his invul save is getting creased by support units in his army.

Martel732 wrote:
I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.

Have you playtested 650 and found it overpowered?

I've played it, and while he destroyed an army by himself, the rest of my army was pretty terrible, relegating itself to using powers for survival (Ahriman kept casting Invisibility on his own unit of massive warp-generating power), and just feeding warp charge into Magnus. Also got a lucky 6 on a Gaze of Magnus D-beam against a Knight at max range, and was facing off against Imperial Guard, so it's not the most stringent of testings ;-)

That's what backs up my opinion that he's not really worth 650 in a completely on his own sort of way, but he ends up being worth more than 650 once you have sufficient back-up.

I'm not sure if one of my biggest concerns about Magnus is unfounded. I'm concerned with him (like every other big Daemon/CSM guy) is not being a GMC, hence he could be Stomped or D-weaponed. Has anyone actually had it happen/done it?

It is very much unfounded, because he definitely does have Eternal Warrior.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'd like to playtest at 775-800. GW chronically undercosts FMCs and MCs with tough defenses in particular.

Have you playtested 650 and found it overpowered?

I've only seen this guy once in a team game. But he was pretty stupid good.

he seems appropriately costed for what you get.

comparing him to 2 wraithknights seems odd as WK are undercosted and should go up about 50 points

 Yarium wrote:
It is very much unfounded, because he definitely does have Eternal Warrior.

Whoops! Re edited my post. What I meant was "Because he's not a GMC, he could be Stomped or D'ed on a 6 to be removed from play". I know it's unlikely to happen, but that was always my biggest concern about him (and the Primarchs) is that they could be removed on a 6.

 jreilly89 wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
It is very much unfounded, because he definitely does have Eternal Warrior.

Whoops! Re edited my post. What I meant was "Because he's not a GMC, he could be Stomped or D'ed on a 6 to be removed from play". I know it's unlikely to happen, but that was always my biggest concern about him (and the Primarchs) is that they could be removed on a 6.

The right circumstances can remove anything, really. In GW's live battle, he was 1-shotted by Hellfrost, which was like a 2% chance to happen, or something ridiculously low.

I think Magnus needs more playtesting from the community before we slam our faces into the "overpowered alarm button."

Obviously his power shifts as you think of him as a percentage of your army. At 3,000 points he's roughly 1/5 of your army. At 1,000 points, he's roughly 2/3 of your army. This goes back to my main point about GW balancing, they should publish point levels for specific kinds of games. (Small, medium, large, etc). It would help us frame any kind of discussion on how best to use Magnus, or what his intended use case is.

Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

Dakka Flyrants are OP.

There's a reason why Tyrranid players consider them an auto-include and try to spam as many of them as possible.

The Tyrranids codex as a whole is terrible, but dakka flyrants are as OP as wraithknights and riptides.

Flyrants are another one of those models that should cost 600+ points.

I never understood the mentality of a troll. Is your life so empty and void of human interaction that you have to live your life making idiotic statements just to get a rise out of people. Sad really.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Yeah, consider the following. Without support, it only takes 50.4 Devourer hits to kill Magnus (56.7 twin-linked shots). Each Flyrant is only 230 for 12 shots. So, for a similar price (690 as compared to 650) you can reliably kill Magnus in just two turns. Now, that is, of course, assuming he doesn't fight back. If he does, though, you'll probably lose a Flyrant a turn... Maybe? I mean, he's relying on 6s to kill them, since they can jink and even outright tank lesser D hits. But sure, let's assume Magnus kills one a turn, but the Flyrants also get turn 1

Turn 1-Flyrants pour out 36 shots, get 32 hits, 10.67 wounds, of which 4.44 go through. Magnus kills a Flyrant.

Turn 2-Flyrants do 24 shots now. 21.33 hit, 7.11 wound, 2.96 go through (for 7.4 total) and looky that, Magnus is dead!

I dunno. If Tyranids have an answer, it doesn't seem like an issue.

Dakka Flyrants are OP.

There's a reason why Tyrranid players consider them an auto-include and try to spam as many of them as possible.

The Tyrranids codex as a whole is terrible, but dakka flyrants are as OP as wraithknights and riptides.

Flyrants are another one of those models that should cost 600+ points.

I never understood the mentality of a troll. Is your life so empty and void of human interaction that you have to live your life making idiotic statements just to get a rise out of people. Sad really.

600 pts+ flyrants hahahahahahaha

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

The gap in capability between flying vehicles and FMCs is staggering. That's why I strongly suspect that GW has undercosted Magnus.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

Exactly and then magnus doesnt accomplish much without WCs for a 650 pts model...

I've so far played against Magnus 3 times with 3 different armies; a FSE CAD + drone net vx-01 (only MC/GC's were a non-OSC unit of ghostkeels), a Daemon incursion list (fateweaver with murderhost and forgehost), and a mono MSU harlequin list (Cegorachs revenge + Cegorachs jest). I won all 3 games.

First was Tau (FSE to be exact) against a Thousand sons grand coven, with Magnus, war cabal and war coven. the psychic powers were nuts admittedly (surprise surprise), and Magnus did survive... but nothing else did and I won quite handily. He had a ton of warp charges and abused the hell out of siphon magic, but not even summoning could keep so few models alive from Tau shooting. Treason of Tzeentch (takes control of one of my units and shoots with it) was annoying but with no stormsurges was hardly game breaking (although I could see it being incredibly powerful against stormsurges... but those could use more counters so who cares), due to the drones to eat the D-shots and high cover save, the ghostkeels were pretty much unmolested. Was a crushing victory. A warp charge spamming thousand sun list led by Magnus has too few models and overall too little durability to be truly competitive. A neat and awesome looking army though if somewhat gimmicky.

Second was some hot Daemon on Daemon action. I took the incursion (see above) against Magnus joining a Pandemoniad of Tzeentch with a lorestealer host, and heralds anarchic. This was a fun game between the two different warp storm tables (I, using the normal one, and he, using the Tzeentchian one). I lost everything but most of the fleshhounds. Fateweaver ate a D-shot to the face (boo!) and my soul grinders did some good damage but were eventually shot to death in a storm of D-shots, bolts of change and a doombolt (and were the only viable target for treason of Tzeentch). The flesh hounds ate through his army like a plague though and in the end, like the first game, all he had left was Magnus. I won the objective game again. His army had more models than the Thousand Sons one (although not by too much), but are much, much squishier (blue horrors have a paltry toughness 2) and suffers the same problems, low board control and low overall durability. Fun note, if anyone cares, this was one of the few games I was fishing for a 4 on the warp storm table (all daemons get -1 to invuls) to make his army that much squishier.

Third was my underused (and sadly under-painted) Harlies against the exact same Magnus + Pandemoniad list that my Daemons fought. It went almost the same except worse. I lost more of my army, and he actually had a squad of blue horrors, a herald, a summoned chariot and the blue scribes surviving in addition to Magnus but I still won based on objectives (by a mere 2 points). This was by far the closest and could have gone either way. The amount of warp charges he produces actually enabled him to deny a lot in my psychic phase which is devastating as a harlequin player. But still his army folds when you get them in close combat.

My overall impressions of Magnus is that he is adequate for his points, maybe even leaning on overcosted although I'm hesitant to say so since he is so new. If you want him to be anything other than a 650 point D shot than you need to build a warp charge heavy army around him which definitely has it's weaknesses. Obviously he is built around exploiting siphon magic which can be sort of awkward since he has to be close to as many friendly psykers as possible which can't always keep up with Magnus unless he lands which makes him quite a bit more vulnerable. Omniscient Eye (line of sight to every unit on the table) is good but is kind of limited by the low range on his witchfires. Between the 2 strength D powers and Treason of Tzeentch he is obviously going to be strong against SHV's and GC's which is good for the game at large since these really need more counters. On the flip side, MSU is going to counter Magnus lists pretty hard, making Treason and D shots excessive and low impact. Meanwhile MSU is simultaneously much better than Magnus lists at grabbing objectives. He is admittedly, incredibly hard to kill, but this is offset by the army you need to support him being incredibly easy to kill, and his value drops quickly as his warp charge batteries disappear. All in all my recommendation is to give Magnus a chance and actually play him a few times before doom saying (and more than once since one game does not indicate a trend).

Cheers!

I find it interesting that (at the time I am posting this) nearly half of the poll (44%) is saying Magnus should be cheaper, with 33% saying he is costed just right and only 24% saying he needs to be more expensive.

I think that if we assume equal trolling in both extremes we can say that Magnus is about where he needs to be.

For what it's worth, my Magnus should be here by Thursday! (along with Triumvirate)

 chalkobob wrote:
I've so far played against Magnus 3 times with 3 different armies; a FSE CAD + drone net vx-01 (only MC/GC's were a non-OSC unit of ghostkeels), a Daemon incursion list (fateweaver with murderhost and forgehost), and a mono MSU harlequin list (Cegorachs revenge + Cegorachs jest). I won all 3 games.

First was Tau (FSE to be exact) against a Thousand sons grand coven, with Magnus, war cabal and war coven. the psychic powers were nuts admittedly (surprise surprise), and Magnus did survive... but nothing else did and I won quite handily. He had a ton of warp charges and abused the hell out of siphon magic, but not even summoning could keep so few models alive from Tau shooting. Treason of Tzeentch (takes control of one of my units and shoots with it) was annoying but with no stormsurges was hardly game breaking (although I could see it being incredibly powerful against stormsurges... but those could use more counters so who cares), due to the drones to eat the D-shots and high cover save, the ghostkeels were pretty much unmolested. Was a crushing victory. A warp charge spamming thousand sun list led by Magnus has too few models and overall too little durability to be truly competitive. A neat and awesome looking army though if somewhat gimmicky.

Second was some hot Daemon on Daemon action. I took the incursion (see above) against Magnus joining a Pandemoniad of Tzeentch with a lorestealer host, and heralds anarchic. This was a fun game between the two different warp storm tables (I, using the normal one, and he, using the Tzeentchian one). I lost everything but most of the fleshhounds. Fateweaver ate a D-shot to the face (boo!) and my soul grinders did some good damage but were eventually shot to death in a storm of D-shots, bolts of change and a doombolt (and were the only viable target for treason of Tzeentch). The flesh hounds ate through his army like a plague though and in the end, like the first game, all he had left was Magnus. I won the objective game again. His army had more models than the Thousand Sons one (although not by too much), but are much, much squishier (blue horrors have a paltry toughness 2) and suffers the same problems, low board control and low overall durability. Fun note, if anyone cares, this was one of the few games I was fishing for a 4 on the warp storm table (all daemons get -1 to invuls) to make his army that much squishier.

Third was my underused (and sadly under-painted) Harlies against the exact same Magnus + Pandemoniad list that my Daemons fought. It went almost the same except worse. I lost more of my army, and he actually had a squad of blue horrors, a herald, a summoned chariot and the blue scribes surviving in addition to Magnus but I still won based on objectives (by a mere 2 points). This was by far the closest and could have gone either way. The amount of warp charges he produces actually enabled him to deny a lot in my psychic phase which is devastating as a harlequin player. But still his army folds when you get them in close combat.

My overall impressions of Magnus is that he is adequate for his points, maybe even leaning on overcosted although I'm hesitant to say so since he is so new. If you want him to be anything other than a 650 point D shot than you need to build a warp charge heavy army around him which definitely has it's weaknesses. Obviously he is built around exploiting siphon magic which can be sort of awkward since he has to be close to as many friendly psykers as possible which can't always keep up with Magnus unless he lands which makes him quite a bit more vulnerable. Omniscient Eye (line of sight to every unit on the table) is good but is kind of limited by the low range on his witchfires. Between the 2 strength D powers and Treason of Tzeentch he is obviously going to be strong against SHV's and GC's which is good for the game at large since these really need more counters. On the flip side, MSU is going to counter Magnus lists pretty hard, making Treason and D shots excessive and low impact. Meanwhile MSU is simultaneously much better than Magnus lists at grabbing objectives. He is admittedly, incredibly hard to kill, but this is offset by the army you need to support him being incredibly easy to kill, and his value drops quickly as his warp charge batteries disappear. All in all my recommendation is to give Magnus a chance and actually play him a few times before doom saying (and more than once since one game does not indicate a trend).

Cheers!

Thanks for the info! Summs up Magnus pretty well. A bit overpriced but cool and interesting centerpiece.

 Galef wrote:
I find it interesting that (at the time I am posting this) nearly half of the poll (44%) is saying Magnus should be cheaper, with 33% saying he is costed just right and only 24% saying he needs to be more expensive.

I think that if we assume equal trolling in both extremes we can say that Magnus is about where he needs to be.

But the small majority, or large minority or... something!

Obviously Magnus is worth 999pts /s

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I find it interesting that (at the time I am posting this) nearly half of the poll (44%) is saying Magnus should be cheaper, with 33% saying he is costed just right and only 24% saying he needs to be more expensive.

I think that if we assume equal trolling in both extremes we can say that Magnus is about where he needs to be.

But the small majority, or large minority or... something!

Obviously Magnus is worth 999pts /s

That sounds like a Traditio poll result.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

Against what i'm assuming is a battle demi company x2 for the free pods i'd probably land magnus and assault for days. Might not win, but he'd mop up a full unit each turn on top of casting spells.

It only takes (7 wounds, 16.8 after 4++ rerolling ones, wounding on 2s is 20.16, hitting on 3s is 30.24) about 15 Sternguard rapid-firing to kill Magnus. Landing him could easily be a death sentence.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It only takes (7 wounds, 16.8 after 4++ rerolling ones, wounding on 2s is 20.16, hitting on 3s is 30.24) about 15 Sternguard rapid-firing to kill Magnus. Landing him could easily be a death sentence.

I didn't think you could rapid fire hellfire rounds

You definitely can.

 JNAProductions wrote:
You definitely can.

Thanks, good info.

At times like this having a Baleflamer Heldrake on the table would be pretty helpful.

But I digress.

Losing Magnus or losing the game? It's not a perfect plan but assaulting away the Sternguard seems like the only option, short of trying to out shoot them or flat out run from them.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

Against what i'm assuming is a battle demi company x2 for the free pods i'd probably land magnus and assault for days. Might not win, but he'd mop up a full unit each turn on top of casting spells.

So would I but I play Nids and Space Wolves - risk and reward is how I play. The player with Magnus could only see the risk in dropping Magnus to glide for a turn before being able to charge.
One turn where every Space Marine that can shoot Magnus will shoot Magnus and they won't be hitting on 6s.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

Against what i'm assuming is a battle demi company x2 for the free pods i'd probably land magnus and assault for days. Might not win, but he'd mop up a full unit each turn on top of casting spells.

So would I but I play Nids and Space Wolves - risk and reward is how I play. The player with Magnus could only see the risk in dropping Magnus to glide for a turn before being able to charge.
One turn where every Space Marine that can shoot Magnus will shoot Magnus and they won't be hitting on 6s.

I dunno, you do have some flexibility where you land him, if you plan on landing him from the start.

We'll be bringing Magnus to 1,000 point games. He will land. He will assault.

EDIT - it might be awful and he might die horribly, but what are you going to do? Just leave him in the sky taking (admittedly dangerous) pot shots at things? Seems like you're getting half of a unit at that point.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

Against what i'm assuming is a battle demi company x2 for the free pods i'd probably land magnus and assault for days. Might not win, but he'd mop up a full unit each turn on top of casting spells.

So would I but I play Nids and Space Wolves - risk and reward is how I play. The player with Magnus could only see the risk in dropping Magnus to glide for a turn before being able to charge.
One turn where every Space Marine that can shoot Magnus will shoot Magnus and they won't be hitting on 6s.

I dunno, you do have some flexibility where you land him, if you plan on landing him from the start.

We'll be bringing Magnus to 1,000 point games. He will land. He will assault.

EDIT - it might be awful and he might die horribly, but what are you going to do? Just leave him in the sky taking (admittedly dangerous) pot shots at things? Seems like you're getting half of a unit at that point.

I don't read minds. I guess in his mind losing Magnus was worse than losing the game? Maybe his mind shut down when the last support psyker took a dirt nap?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Magnus is a large chunk of an 1850 point army - a large chunk that needs to be built around to be truly effective.
I'm making this sound a bit simple but I've seen it done - kill Magnus' pricey Psychic support and Magnus quickly drops in threat levels. Fifteen spells is cool but how many can you cast with eleven Warp Charge Dice...or six?
Turned into a standoff, if Magnus landed he would do some damage then die - If he stayed airborne the other team could just spread and grab objectives, on turn three that's a hard place to be.

Must have taken a highly mobile force to do that.

Assuming this player went at the top of turn 1, what'd they do?

Also, can you recall the approximate list for Magnus? I'd be curious to see if the army was wholly devoted to Magnus, or if it had some conventional army elements too...

Vanilla Marines.
Fairly general Marine list and a few squads of those vets with multiple ammo types drop podding in - just "Ignored" Magnus at the beginning and hunted the Psykers - had all of the Psykers except Magnus himself gone by the end of his turn three. Thousand Sons were stripped of four or five Warp Charge dice each turn.

Against what i'm assuming is a battle demi company x2 for the free pods i'd probably land magnus and assault for days. Might not win, but he'd mop up a full unit each turn on top of casting spells.

So would I but I play Nids and Space Wolves - risk and reward is how I play. The player with Magnus could only see the risk in dropping Magnus to glide for a turn before being able to charge.
One turn where every Space Marine that can shoot Magnus will shoot Magnus and they won't be hitting on 6s.

I dunno, you do have some flexibility where you land him, if you plan on landing him from the start.

We'll be bringing Magnus to 1,000 point games. He will land. He will assault.

EDIT - it might be awful and he might die horribly, but what are you going to do? Just leave him in the sky taking (admittedly dangerous) pot shots at things? Seems like you're getting half of a unit at that point.

I don't read minds. I guess in his mind losing Magnus was worse than losing the game? Maybe his mind shut down when the last support psyker took a dirt nap?

Not criticizing his strategy just remarking on what i'd do. Why is everyone so sensitive today? I can't see the game batrep, maybe he played optimally and that's not really here nor there. I'm just interested in discussing ways Magnus can be used.

I'm not being sensitive I just have no idea what his gameplan was. Me, I'd risk it all - better to get boardwiped in a glorious round of stupidity and bloodshed than to draw out a stalemate you know you can't win for two or three more turns.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not being sensitive I just have no idea what his gameplan was. Me, I'd risk it all - better to get boardwiped in a glorious round of stupidity and bloodshed than to draw out a stalemate you know you can't win for two or three more turns.

We're on the same page, for sure!

I guess this is why everyone is so split on how to cost Magnus. You don't just drop him on the board and win.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not being sensitive I just have no idea what his gameplan was. Me, I'd risk it all - better to get boardwiped in a glorious round of stupidity and bloodshed than to draw out a stalemate you know you can't win for two or three more turns.

We're on the same page, for sure!

I guess this is why everyone is so split on how to cost Magnus. You don't just drop him on the board and win.

Currently I don't think there are any Unique Characters you can drop and auto win. There's a couple of really mean combinations out there but nothing that guarantees victory - as far as I'm aware the worst stuff is spammed.
I've only glanced over Thousand Sons - I preordered both Warzone Fenris collections because Space Wolves and gave the Chaos rules in both boxes to a friend who does play Chaos (bloody expensive Xmas present, did make for a really good joke about Logan Grimnar being Santa Clawz though) - but as far as I can tell it's super restrictive to take him below 2000 points in a straight Chaos army. Where I have seen Magnus put down in terrifying fashion was unbound alongside Eldar, on paper that list was mental, on the tabletop Magus has a 24' Come the Apocalypse bubble that the player has to contend with but Eldar are stupidly mobile as is Magnus in Swooping mode. End of the day though he's still a whopper chunk of an army that can have his day absolutely ruined by the presence of Sisters of Silence or the Culexus Assassin.

I am actually unsure if I could kill Magnus without tailoring against him as Death Korps of Krieg, because I don't have any firepower capable of damaging him in large volumes (a few lascannons/laser destroyers will not really affect him) that aren't blasts. On the other hand, I don't think I actually need to kill him since I can probably barrage the rest of his army and then hold objectives, since 650 points would give me almost 9 Earthshakers.

So no, I don't think he's overpowered and is probably fine at 650 points. If his cost was to go up, they would need to reduce the rest of the Thousand Son's army. Hell, they would need to do that anyway.

 Aenarian wrote:
I am actually unsure if I could kill Magnus without tailoring against him as Death Korps of Krieg, because I don't have any firepower capable of damaging him in large volumes (a few lascannons/laser destroyers will not really affect him) that aren't blasts. On the other hand, I don't think I actually need to kill him since I can probably barrage the rest of his army and then hold objectives, since 650 points would give me almost 9 Earthshakers.

So no, I don't think he's overpowered and is probably fine at 650 points. If his cost was to go up, they would need to reduce the rest of the Thousand Son's army. Hell, they would need to do that anyway.

Flyers kind of have to be built for, it's the reason why Flyrant spam and Flying Circus work, they catch people out for not purchasing Skyfire but they don't have the weakness of relying on grounded units to operate.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
I am actually unsure if I could kill Magnus without tailoring against him as Death Korps of Krieg, because I don't have any firepower capable of damaging him in large volumes (a few lascannons/laser destroyers will not really affect him) that aren't blasts. On the other hand, I don't think I actually need to kill him since I can probably barrage the rest of his army and then hold objectives, since 650 points would give me almost 9 Earthshakers.

So no, I don't think he's overpowered and is probably fine at 650 points. If his cost was to go up, they would need to reduce the rest of the Thousand Son's army. Hell, they would need to do that anyway.

Flyers kind of have to be built for, it's the reason why Flyrant spam and Flying Circus work, they catch people out for not purchasing Skyfire but they don't have the weakness of relying on grounded units to operate.

Yes, but to down Magnus within a reasonable amount of time I would either need to take fighters (which I don't ever take) or something like three or four Hydras. I could see myself taking one or two perhaps in a normal game, but not four (which would cause something like 1.5-2 wounds per turn). Instead, I could just take more artillery and kill everything else.

May have missed a few parts of this but the main build I am seeing for Magnus is with 3 DP in the formation. That means 14+D6 WC. 4 FMC zooming around the board all dropping units of horrors and chariots/flamers all over the place to increase the WC pool and objective grab.

 Aenarian wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
I am actually unsure if I could kill Magnus without tailoring against him as Death Korps of Krieg, because I don't have any firepower capable of damaging him in large volumes (a few lascannons/laser destroyers will not really affect him) that aren't blasts. On the other hand, I don't think I actually need to kill him since I can probably barrage the rest of his army and then hold objectives, since 650 points would give me almost 9 Earthshakers.

So no, I don't think he's overpowered and is probably fine at 650 points. If his cost was to go up, they would need to reduce the rest of the Thousand Son's army. Hell, they would need to do that anyway.

Flyers kind of have to be built for, it's the reason why Flyrant spam and Flying Circus work, they catch people out for not purchasing Skyfire but they don't have the weakness of relying on grounded units to operate.

Yes, but to down Magnus within a reasonable amount of time I would either need to take fighters (which I don't ever take) or something like three or four Hydras. I could see myself taking one or two perhaps in a normal game, but not four (which would cause something like 1.5-2 wounds per turn). Instead, I could just take more artillery and kill everything else.

That was kind of the point.
Magnus isn't like Flyrant spam. Flyrant spam doesn't care about any tax units left on the ground, Magnus relies on the grounded units.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
I am actually unsure if I could kill Magnus without tailoring against him as Death Korps of Krieg, because I don't have any firepower capable of damaging him in large volumes (a few lascannons/laser destroyers will not really affect him) that aren't blasts. On the other hand, I don't think I actually need to kill him since I can probably barrage the rest of his army and then hold objectives, since 650 points would give me almost 9 Earthshakers.

So no, I don't think he's overpowered and is probably fine at 650 points. If his cost was to go up, they would need to reduce the rest of the Thousand Son's army. Hell, they would need to do that anyway.

Flyers kind of have to be built for, it's the reason why Flyrant spam and Flying Circus work, they catch people out for not purchasing Skyfire but they don't have the weakness of relying on grounded units to operate.

Yes, but to down Magnus within a reasonable amount of time I would either need to take fighters (which I don't ever take) or something like three or four Hydras. I could see myself taking one or two perhaps in a normal game, but not four (which would cause something like 1.5-2 wounds per turn). Instead, I could just take more artillery and kill everything else.

That was kind of the point.
Magnus isn't like Flyrant spam. Flyrant spam doesn't care about any tax units left on the ground, Magnus relies on the grounded units.

The issue is tournament wise he is likely to be flyrant spam with him and 3 x Lvl 3 DP whizzing around the board

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
I am actually unsure if I could kill Magnus without tailoring against him as Death Korps of Krieg, because I don't have any firepower capable of damaging him in large volumes (a few lascannons/laser destroyers will not really affect him) that aren't blasts. On the other hand, I don't think I actually need to kill him since I can probably barrage the rest of his army and then hold objectives, since 650 points would give me almost 9 Earthshakers.

So no, I don't think he's overpowered and is probably fine at 650 points. If his cost was to go up, they would need to reduce the rest of the Thousand Son's army. Hell, they would need to do that anyway.

Flyers kind of have to be built for, it's the reason why Flyrant spam and Flying Circus work, they catch people out for not purchasing Skyfire but they don't have the weakness of relying on grounded units to operate.

Yes, but to down Magnus within a reasonable amount of time I would either need to take fighters (which I don't ever take) or something like three or four Hydras. I could see myself taking one or two perhaps in a normal game, but not four (which would cause something like 1.5-2 wounds per turn). Instead, I could just take more artillery and kill everything else.

That was kind of the point.
Magnus isn't like Flyrant spam. Flyrant spam doesn't care about any tax units left on the ground, Magnus relies on the grounded units.

The issue is tournament wise he is likely to be flyrant spam with him and 3 x Lvl 3 DP whizzing around the board

For 2000 points I can make it happen, how are you getting it below 1850?

depending on how much below 1850 possibly go for hidden sorcerers instead of DP of drop the odd psychic level. Wouldn´t look to use him much below 1500 thought as he is taking up too many points then.

Well, magnus is worth around 600 according to the poll, thanks guys !

600pts actually came in 4th place.

You can't really establish a general consensus with a non-normal distribution.

It's hard to say. He's worth more in a competitive setting cause there are so many things that he's good against - centstars, big shooty robots, big stompy robots, flying around wufwufs. He's also great for killpoint missions that still tend to pop here and there at tourneys. You're also not likely to lose Magnus in the first 4 rounds and he's accidentally more effective at the start when he's still fuelled with WC from the rest of the army.

But in the more relaxed setting he starts to lag behind cause there are less and less good targets for his d-shots, beams and mindcontrols. The games are not usually ending on turn 4, so there's plenty of time to just crubstomp all the magic batteries and go ahead and score vp in a more versatile game of maelstorm simply ignoring or tying Magnus up.

If magnus gets to go first, then his points is well costed, or he might do even better than his current points.

However because of the current meta with stormsurges, drop pods with grav amped grav weapons, wraithknights, I feel he should be costed slightly less. Probably at 550-600 points.

bleak wrote:
If magnus gets to go first, then his points is well costed, or he might do even better than his current points.

However because of the current meta with stormsurges, drop pods with grav amped grav weapons, wraithknights, I feel he should be costed slightly less. Probably at 550-600 points.

That's Eldar and Tau logic.
Taking a big lump of points in a single model SHOULD be a risk.

bleak wrote:
If magnus gets to go first, then his points is well costed, or he might do even better than his current points.

However because of the current meta with stormsurges, drop pods with grav amped grav weapons, wraithknights, I feel he should be costed slightly less. Probably at 550-600 points.

Next you will be saying drop the cost of a WK because he only has 2 big guns and gets owned by grav.

In general, FMCs and GMCs need to cost more. I don't know why that's not true for Magnus. He's effectively immortal.

He is very expensive for a model that can be killed in 1 shot. I admit the WK needs to go up a little as he is auto include in a top end eldar list. and most top end tau lists as well

 rawne2510 wrote:
He is very expensive for a model that can be killed in 1 shot. I admit the WK needs to go up a little as he is auto include in a top end eldar list. and most top end tau lists as well

A revenant titan can be killed by 1 shot on the D table. Being able to be oneshot in a perfect situation is not how we determine points values. Magnus has to worry about being landed and hit by a D shot, or being in melee with a GMC and stomped out on a 6, id take those weakness for a model with his abilities anytime.

A magnus led DP list just won a GT, seems he was worth the 650 for this guy, magnus was his mvp in 4 of his 5 games

https://spikeybits.com/2017/01/magnus-storms-the-scarab-40k-gt.html

But a titan can only be killed by a 6 on the D table and you roll a 6 + 6

I love him as a model and think he should be 650 points for his abilities. I was replying to martel's statement that MC and GMC should be more expensive as they are effectively immortal. MC aren't immortal

 rawne2510 wrote:
But a titan can only be killed by a 6 on the D table and you roll a 6 + 6

I love him as a model and think he should be 650 points for his abilities. I was replying to martel's statement that MC and GMC should be more expensive as they are effectively immortal. MC aren't immortal

how is that different from magnus. You need the 6 to hit him when swooping, than another 6 to destroy him. If you have him on the ground while the wraithknight is still alive, your a weak player (or got siezed on). Mind you i despise the list in the link i provided, it seems niether fun to play as or against. I hate the psychic phase in 40k right now, but the guys a god when supported correctly.

because you can do it with anything that removes you from play on Magnus. the only way to get a titan out is 6 followed by 6 on the D table. there is no other way to do it in 1 shot

 rawne2510 wrote:
because you can do it with anything that removes you from play on Magnus. the only way to get a titan out is 6 followed by 6 on the D table. there is no other way to do it in 1 shot

Helfrost.

a list featuring and relying on Magnus won a grand tournament. it just came out. read his batreps.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
because you can do it with anything that removes you from play on Magnus. the only way to get a titan out is 6 followed by 6 on the D table. there is no other way to do it in 1 shot

Helfrost.

How does Hellfrost kill a titan in one shot? I'm not familiar with Hellfrost beyond its bad news towards MEQs.


Also, a Titan has Void Shields. Does D ignore Void Shields? I don't recall.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
because you can do it with anything that removes you from play on Magnus. the only way to get a titan out is 6 followed by 6 on the D table. there is no other way to do it in 1 shot

Helfrost.

How does Hellfrost kill a titan in one shot? I'm not familiar with Hellfrost beyond its bad news towards MEQs.


Also, a Titan has Void Shields. Does D ignore Void Shields? I don't recall.

It doesn't, I misread your post.
Helfrost has the potential to remove Magnus in one shot. Any wound caused by a Helfrost weapon forces a Strength test, 6 is a fail regardless of the model's strength. Failure on the strength test means model gets removed from play.
Titans don't have wounds so Helfrost is irrelevant.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
because you can do it with anything that removes you from play on Magnus. the only way to get a titan out is 6 followed by 6 on the D table. there is no other way to do it in 1 shot

Helfrost.

I'm talking about the titan.

 rawne2510 wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

 rawne2510 wrote:
because you can do it with anything that removes you from play on Magnus. the only way to get a titan out is 6 followed by 6 on the D table. there is no other way to do it in 1 shot

Helfrost.

I'm talking about the titan.

Yeah, misread.