do you think Calgar will yeild command of the Ultramarines back to him, or will he be hesitant?

Hopefully Calgar will be executed for his use of heretical weaponary.

LightKing wrote:
do you think Calgar will yeild command of the Ultramarines back to him, or will he be hesitant?

IIRC in one of the leaked pictures he’s there marching beside him.

A lot depends on the nature of his revival. From what I’ve heard it’s a mix of xenos stuff and AdMech. But that’s all I’ve heard. If it’s real heavy on the xenos stuff, I could see some doubt creeping in.

But at the end of the day, I think Calgar would serve loyally. Might be a little resentment, but only a tiny bit. I think the honour and pride of fighting alongside his primarch would overwhelm most everything else.

Will Roboute have command over the other chapters besides the Ultramarines?

LightKing wrote:
Will Roboute have command over the other chapters besides the Ultramarines?

He shouldn’t. Doesn’t mean he wont.

Chapters work together all the time. Normally the most senior officer is given command. Probably weighted with the older chapters having precedent. But lots of politics etc. and swing things.

In any imperial force, I think the assumption is that Roboute will have overall command. But it’s not a given. Any other marine chapter, even Ultramarine descendants, is a completely autonomous force. They can tell him to get stuffed, and be completely within their rights. Now they probably wont, but could.

He probably can’t just command guard or navy assets either. No more then a chapter master could. Again, if he speaks up, any admiral or general in the area is probably going to listen and obey. But it’s not required.

It’s almost like someone structured the armed forces of the imperium so one individual couldn’t just mobilize huge swaths of the war machine on his word.

LightKing wrote:
Will Roboute have command over the other chapters besides the Ultramarines?

I think most successor chapters would see their Primarch and bend knee.

So the real question is how will the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition react to Roboute's return

 Ketara wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Will Roboute have command over the other chapters besides the Ultramarines?

I think most successor chapters would see their Primarch and bend knee.

Honestly, I think any chapter would.

While not their direct father, he’s their “uncle”. Rouboute fought beside their primarch, knew him. He harkens back to the glory days of all marines. He knew/knows the Emperor. Almost literally one step removed from god.

And he wrote the book of warfare, and helped rebuild the imperium from the rubble of the heresy. He probably has more combat experience then anyone alive. While he might be a little behind on current events, he’s a genius and will probably be up to speed in no time.

I’m not going to say everyone is going to follow him blindly. Especially with the situation of his revival. But I think most people in the imperium would be hard pressed to find a reason not to give a lot of weight to what he has to say.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LightKing wrote:
So the real question is how will the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition react to Roboute's return

Politics could get ugly. No lie. The IoM is not in a good place right now, and a lot of that can be left at the feet of the HLoT. A living Primarch is a threat to the status quo, so those entrenched in power have a lot to fear. It could go a lot of different ways. I think it’s a bit early to tell how GW is going to write things.

Roboute in the field is not a big threat. He’ll just cruise around, putting out fires and killing xenos/traitors. But if starts to looks at the organization and infrastructure, things are going to end poorly for those at the top of the heap. At least some of them. And as logistics was RG’s big thing, he’s going to get to it eventually, assuming he survives in the field.

I'm sure Calgar would hand the chapter over to Guilliman if he asked but I doubt he will. One would think he would set his sights higher than just one little chapter.

I'm sure that if Guilliman has time to look at the Imperium's infrastructure he'd seriously shake things up, but I'm 99% certain that by the end of all this, Roberto will have nobly sacrificed himself in order to maintain the status quo.

 Nevelon wrote:
He probably has more combat experience then anyone alive.

I very strongly doubt that. He saw centuries of war during the heresy but has been asleep for millennia. Meanwhile most CSM are VotLW!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
He probably has more combat experience then anyone alive.

I very strongly doubt that. He saw centuries of war during the heresy but has been asleep for millennia. Meanwhile most CSM are VotLW!

And much of those few centuries were spent counting beans, pushing pencils and destroying peaceful cities belonging to other legions.

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
He probably has more combat experience then anyone alive.

I very strongly doubt that. He saw centuries of war during the heresy but has been asleep for millennia. Meanwhile most CSM are VotLW!

And much of those few centuries were spent counting beans, pushing pencils and destroying peaceful cities belonging to other legions.

I stand corrected.

I almost put a “In the IoM” note on that. Any time you talk about those alive, chaos will almost always win any comparison on timed things.

Yes. It is possible that as individuals Dark/Eldar may take the record (no one really knows how old Vect is) but as an overall faction it is difficult to beat CSM for longevity.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yes. It is possible that as individuals Dark/Eldar may take the record (no one really knows how old Vect is) but as an overall faction it is difficult to beat CSM for longevity.

Vect ascendency is about 6000 years old. In M35, he took control of Commoragh, the Kabal system was founded and Dark Eldars as we know them were born. Lelith is older than him if I'm not mistaken, while Urien was born at the beginning of Commoragh fall into decandence 25 000 years ago. As for Eldrad, he was already the leader of Ulthwé during the Horus Heresy. The Swarmlord consciousness might be millions of year old. In world of ancient monsters,, immortal demi-gods, a 300 years old Primarch is a child who wakes up in a world he doesn't know. Yarrick might have more war experience than him.

I'll be pissed if they have Roboute do a one in done for this book...like Vulkan in Beast Rises

epronovost wrote:
Vect ascendency is about 6000 years old.

He claims he was there to see the Fall of the Eldar. Now, he himself is obviously not a reliable source, but it is not impossible.

 Ashiraya wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Vect ascendency is about 6000 years old.

He claims he was there to see the Fall of the Eldar. Now, he himself is obviously not a reliable source, but it is not impossible.

He could very well be indeed. He is, afterall, at least 6000 years old. Lots of Eldar heroes have memories of the Fall or its early aftermath.

Rowboat Heresy?

Seeing all this emperor worship and the state of things, I reckon Rowboat would try to throw his weight around and get a lot of marines to his side- all ultramarine successor chapters would flock to him and he's have near half the loyalist marines on his side because of that. Fingers get pointed at rowboat hypocrite girlyman for having so many chapters under him; he'd deny it and say things are dire and he needs to take command personally cuz humans done gone fethed up; he begins his long time plan to take over the imperium *cue civil war and rowboat making another empire* why? Hey, he did write a book about why his dad sucks at ruling and how he'd have done it better. Rowboat, the secret traitor- cmon, marines have never been around to save the imperium and tyrannic wars don't count cuz they were just saving their own skins.... That's how I hope it goes at least. Probably be more space marine fanboyish though

epronovost wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

epronovost wrote:
Vect ascendency is about 6000 years old.

He claims he was there to see the Fall of the Eldar. Now, he himself is obviously not a reliable source, but it is not impossible.

He could very well be indeed. He is, afterall, at least 6000 years old. Lots of Eldar heroes have memories of the Fall or its early aftermath.

Right, he conquered commogaarath 6000 years ago. He might have had 10,000 years before that.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
He probably has more combat experience then anyone alive.

I very strongly doubt that. He saw centuries of war during the heresy but has been asleep for millennia. Meanwhile most CSM are VotLW!

He has been in stasis for millenia, so no time will have passed for him. It will be as if he wakes up seconds after he fell asleep

His perception of his time spent in stasis is not relevant to his combat experience.

 Ashiraya wrote:
His perception of his time spent in stasis is not relevant to his combat experience.

And by that same vein, most of those Veterans of the Long War have effectively experienced similar.

Remember that for some of them, the Siege of Terra was "just yesterday" while in the material universe time has long since gone by.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
His perception of his time spent in stasis is not relevant to his combat experience.

And by that same vein, most of those Veterans of the Long War have effectively experienced similar.

Remember that for some of them, the Siege of Terra was "just yesterday" while in the material universe time has long since gone by.

I would like to ask you for a source on that 'most' claim.

The Warp is irregular and unpredictable. Some have only experienced centuries (notably Talos' Night Lords) but this is not a rule.

Some, such as the Black Legion (according to their supplement at least) being spoken of throughout the supplement as having experienced ten millennia of warfare.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
His perception of his time spent in stasis is not relevant to his combat experience.

And by that same vein, most of those Veterans of the Long War have effectively experienced similar.

Remember that for some of them, the Siege of Terra was "just yesterday" while in the material universe time has long since gone by.

I would like to ask you for a source on that 'most' claim.

The Warp is irregular and unpredictable. Some have only experienced centuries (notably Talos' Night Lords) but this is not a rule.

And I would like to ask you for a source citing "most CSM are VotLW".

Seeing as how neither of us can produce one specific bit that the other will likely say is "canon", it's best to just take it at face value.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And I would like to ask you for a source citing "most CSM are VotLW".

IA13, page 16, first paragraph under 'Rites of Death'

Your turn.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And I would like to ask you for a source citing "most CSM are VotLW".

IA13, page 16, first paragraph under 'Rites of Death'

Your turn.

I don't have IA13, so that effectively means nothing.

Why? Because nothing published outside of that supports your assertion.

I take it Leviathan Dreadnoughts don't exist to you either because there is nothing supporting their existence outside of FW?

 Ashiraya wrote:
I take it Leviathan Dreadnoughts don't exist to you either because there is nothing supporting their existence outside of FW?

Do you understand the concept of "throwaway references"?

Leviathan Dreadnoughts, while a FW item, have more supporting them aside from a single line in one book.

Sure, call it a throwaway reference just because you don't like it.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Sure, call it a throwaway reference just because you don't like it.

Find any other source besides that one line in that one book citing it, or being generous, anything similar to that statement ("most CSM are Veterans of the Long War" or "many of the CSM fighting today are legionnaires who fought in the Heresy")

I call it a throwaway reference because it's a one and done.

That's absurd. A considerable part of the whole setting is only mentioned in one source, from characters and weapons to entire planets.

 Ashiraya wrote:
That's absurd. A considerable part of the whole setting is only mentioned in one source, from characters and weapons to entire planets.

Sure, one source maybe. But not only ever once in the entirety of a book.

Why would they need to repeat themselves?

In case you are interested

 Ashiraya wrote:
Why would they need to repeat themselves?

Who says it needs to be a repeat? Like I said, any variation of phrasing that effectively states "Most CSM are VoTLW" is fine.

I mean you would think that would be something in Traitor Legions or CSM, right? So why is it just in IA13?

Back on topic:

Is there anymore info on how Guilliman in revived/woken up?

Magister wrote:



Back on topic:

Is there anymore info on how Guilliman in revived/woken up?

Yvraine and Cawl. That's all we know.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So why is it just in IA13?

I don't know, and frankly, it's irrelevant. The words are there. Take them or leave them, but don't make up excuses for it - if you are going to deny it, then be frank and admit that you believe your own canon over FW's.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Magister wrote:



Back on topic:

Very well.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So why is it just in IA13?

I don't know, and frankly, it's irrelevant. The words are there. Take them or leave them, but don't make up excuses for it - if you are going to deny it, then be frank and admit that you believe your own canon over FW's.

All I'm asking for is a single collaborating source.

I'm not the one who is trying to build up some kind of canon to try to make regular CSM better than a Primarch.


Additionally? It's worth noting that if we really were to play the numbers game, that whole "most CSM are VotLW" would likely be negated by the number of traitor Astartes/renegades who have turned since the Heresy.

 Kanluwen wrote:


I'm not the one who is trying to build up some kind of canon to try to make regular CSM better than a Primarch.

CSM will not, ever, be the match of a primarch. They are more experienced than a loyalist primarch who has spent most of his life in stasis, yes, but that is not the same thing.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


I'm not the one who is trying to build up some kind of canon to try to make regular CSM better than a Primarch.

CSM will not, ever, be the match of a primarch. They are more experienced than a loyalist primarch who has spent most of his life in stasis, yes, but that is not the same thing.

Are they really though?

They have more time alive and active, that doesn't mean it is all spent in combat or anything like that.

Still more than if you are sitting in stasis.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Still more than if you are sitting in stasis.

Is it really though, if you're stuck in the Warp doing nothing?

Why would they sit in the Warp and do nothing? Raiding the Imperium, fighting Xenos, infighting in the Eye...

Could also be propaganda and lies, that's not the purview of the Imperium

there is no way CSM are on the level of a primarch, they might have more experience after all these years, but that doesn't mean their anywhere near primarch level in ability


i would venture to say 98.9999 percent of CSM today are probably more experienced than Roboute

and still Roboute would wreck 98.9999 percent of CSM

More like 99.9999999 (repeating), actually!

Do you guys think Roboute should smack Calgar, first thing, because of Calgar ruining the interpretation of the Codex Astartes (taking it too literal) when Roboute didn't want that

Furthermore, due to how the warp makes no sense, there's probably a bunch of CSM who popped out on their first raid since the Heresy only to find out that it's been 10 000 years since it has finished. I think that would interesting

 Alpharius wrote:
More like 99.9999999 (repeating), actually!

Anyone other than Abaddon that you think could take down a Primarch?

On the age topic shouldn't Guilliman be 250 years ish? Unless I'm mistakes the great crusade went on for about 230years, the Horus Heresy some 10years and then some time untill his showdown with Fulgrim. Calgar is about 400. I havn't doubble checked sources so take it with a grain of salt.

On topic: With a Primarch back, Cadia dead and Ynnead getting champions we're looking at a paradigm shif in 40k. I doubt the Ultramarines are going to stay the same after theese event though what will happen is anybodys guess. Presumably Roubert will either try to take command of the Imperium or build a new Imperium with Maccrage at its center, though it's all just speculation. Pretty sure Calgar will hand him the Ultramarines though Roubert will probably invent a new office for himself above the rank of Chapters master and have Calgar remain. I don't see anyone except the Inquisition being able to stop him.

 Alpharius wrote:
More like 99.9999999 (repeating), actually!

Probably not nearly that high. Remember there are 6-7 CSM Primarchs still alive. As someone names Alpharius I thought you would understand. I would put my money on Angron any day.

Assuming there are 500,000 CSM, that would limit it out at .99986. Also not so sure how Rowboat would do against Abby or Lucius.

 Nerak wrote:
though Roubert will probably invent a new office for himself above the rank of Chapters master and have Calgar remain. I don't see anyone except the Inquisition being able to stop him.

Legion Master?

 Ketara wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
though Roubert will probably invent a new office for himself above the rank of Chapters master and have Calgar remain. I don't see anyone except the Inquisition being able to stop him.

Legion Master?

Why, he'll just remain chapter master. Rouboute Guilliman will just lead the XIIIth Legion, like he did before, only now it has around 400.000 Space Marines, since from the 1 million SM in the galaxy, around 2 thirds are Ultramarines genewise, and I think at least 60-70% of those chapters will consider him their primarch.

And even if it's just 200.000 Marines, that is still a lot. And Calgar can just become First Chapter Master. Like in the olden days.

another possiability is Gulliman leaves Caligar as chapter master, and simply takes "Lord of Macragge" for himself

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


I'm not the one who is trying to build up some kind of canon to try to make regular CSM better than a Primarch.

CSM will not, ever, be the match of a primarch. They are more experienced than a loyalist primarch who has spent most of his life in stasis, yes, but that is not the same thing.

Are they really though?

They have more time alive and active, that doesn't mean it is all spent in combat or anything like that.

Plus this isn't dragon ball z. There is a limit on how good you can get. Super human or not their is not enough brain cells to r,ember 10000 years of stuff plus all the tactics and ext you seen. If they where pushed to the limits during the crusade they would not be much better then they where then just different tactics. There is a limit on every man and he can never surpass them and not all men are created eaqule.

Does anyone think that this will be a new era like how "Fantasy" went to "Age of Sigmar"

will the rumored 8th edition focus on Roboute's attempt to fix the Imperium,

Yes but just like whfb people will deny it til the game ends. They do say it is aosing but not that far.

But how much of it can burn, til it is far enough to burn you.

Aos would not of burnt me if not for name change and lore kill

OgreChubbs wrote:
Yes but just like whfb people will deny it til the game ends. They do say it is aosing but not that far.

But how much of it can burn, til it is far enough to burn you.

Aos would not of burnt me if not for name change and lore kill

I don't think we will see a massive universal restructure like Age of Sigmar

but i do think a new Imperium shaped by Roboute will happen

In terms of experience, there is more to it than just the raw number of years under your belt - there remains the issue of the amount of data you can take in as a result of experiencing something, and the further issue of incorporating your experiences into an applicable format.

Primarchs (like RG) are well-established to not only have their natural attributes set to 20 (out of a possible 10, on a logarithmic scale), but to also perceive and process information with details and at speeds that beggar description.

Comparing even a CSM who was outside the warp for all 10000 years and fought for nearly every single moment to a Primarch who spent only a few centuries in the Great Crusade would be the rough equivalent of comparing a month's worth of downloading on a 56k modem onto a 1980's computer to a day's worth of downloading on Google Fiber onto a modern supercomputer.

He'd seek out Bjorn the Fell-Handed being the only Loyalist from the same era and get himself updated on what has happened since the Heresy.
The Space Wolves don't do the Codex Astartes but they do make liquor strong enough to kill a human and poisons that allow a Space Marine or even a Primarch to feel it.

After hearing what has happened to the Imperium even RG is gonna need sommething bracing.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He'd seek out Bjorn the Fell-Handed being the only Loyalist from the same era and get himself updated on what has happened since the Heresy.
The Space Wolves don't do the Codex Astartes but they do make liquor strong enough to kill a human and poisons that allow a Space Marine or even a Primarch to feel it.

After hearing what has happened to the Imperium even RG is gonna need sommething bracing.

also just because the space wolves don't use the codex, doesn't mean they'd not give Gulliman some props. (I've always thought that a GREAT novel would be a combined Ultramarine/Space Wolf operation. they start off in conflcit over each others approuch, but by the end have come to appreciate each other. it's like a buddy cop movie with Marines )

as much as the whole spirtual leige thing is mocked, I do think Gulliman is most likely to be the most respected primarch among all marine chapters regardless of their background. if only for his role as a architect of the IoM

Not saying I wouldn't be delighted to read it - but how are you going to make it different to any story about the Space Wolves and Dark Angels?

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Not saying I wouldn't be delighted to read it - but how are you going to make it different to any story about the Space Wolves and Dark Angels?

well for a start the straight man isn't a unlikeable secretive asshat

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Not saying I wouldn't be delighted to read it - but how are you going to make it different to any story about the Space Wolves and Dark Angels?

well for a start the straight man isn't a unlikeable secretive asshat

Bam. Headshot.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Not saying I wouldn't be delighted to read it - but how are you going to make it different to any story about the Space Wolves and Dark Angels?

well for a start the straight man isn't a unlikeable secretive asshat

This. Relating to Dark Angels is difficult when they're so mysterious and secretive.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Not saying I wouldn't be delighted to read it - but how are you going to make it different to any story about the Space Wolves and Dark Angels?

well for a start the straight man isn't a unlikeable secretive asshat

This. Relating to Dark Angels is difficult when they're so mysterious and secretive.

Read the latest Ragnar Blackmane novel.
The Dark Angel in that is actually pretty relatable.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
More like 99.9999999 (repeating), actually!

Anyone other than Abaddon that you think could take down a Primarch?

Ork Snipers

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
More like 99.9999999 (repeating), actually!

Anyone other than Abaddon that you think could take down a Primarch?

Any of the world sundering weapons technology that exists in the 41st millenium? I mean a knife cut put him on life support so I think a D-cannon or Basilisk shot would, by all rights, evaporate him into dust and move on to the next target.

And yet there's this gakky novel where a primarch survives a Titan shot... Although I guess plot armor is best armor, till the plot needs you to go away.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And yet there's this gakky novel where a primarch survives a Titan shot... Although I guess plot armor is best armor, till the plot needs you to go away.

amazing what some of the most powerful psykers in existance can do innit?

I'd say its boring.

 Bobthehero wrote:
And yet there's this gakky novel where a primarch survives a Titan shot... Although I guess plot armor is best armor, till the plot needs you to go away.

Which one is that? Need to know so I can avoid reading it.

Betrayer

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And yet there's this gakky novel where a primarch survives a Titan shot... Although I guess plot armor is best armor, till the plot needs you to go away.

Which one is that? Need to know so I can avoid reading it.

While I'm not going to say that anyone's opinion is more or less valid than anyone else's, I feel Betrayer was one of, if not, the best Horus Heresy books thus far and that you would be seriously missing out if you decided to skip it.

Edit: misread the quotes

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And yet there's this gakky novel where a primarch survives a Titan shot... Although I guess plot armor is best armor, till the plot needs you to go away.

Which one is that? Need to know so I can avoid reading it.

While I'm not going to say that anyone's opinion is more or less valid than anyone else's, I feel Betrayer was one of, if not, the best Horus Heresy books thus far and that you would be seriously missing out if you decided to skip it.

I'll second that. the HH series is best when the story isn't "boltgun porn" and instead is something driven by story and character, betrayer very much is, even the "shot by a titan" bit in it, was done, from a story telling POV for a VERY specific reason, (to basicly demonstrate, clearly, how powerful Lorgar had become since embracing chaos). Betrayer is, IMHO one of the best stories out there, and anyone whose moderastly intreasted in the ultramarines, word bearers or world eaters, NEEDS to read it. (especially the world eaters. I'd argue it's their story)

Will Roboute be powerful still against someone like Abaddon

remember that Roboute lost a fight against Kor Phaeron during the Heresy

BrianDavion wrote:

 Blackhair Duckshape wrote:

 Skylifter1000 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
And yet there's this gakky novel where a primarch survives a Titan shot... Although I guess plot armor is best armor, till the plot needs you to go away.

Which one is that? Need to know so I can avoid reading it.

While I'm not going to say that anyone's opinion is more or less valid than anyone else's, I feel Betrayer was one of, if not, the best Horus Heresy books thus far and that you would be seriously missing out if you decided to skip it.

I'll second that. the HH series is best when the story isn't "boltgun porn" and instead is something driven by story and character, betrayer very much is, even the "shot by a titan" bit in it, was done, from a story telling POV for a VERY specific reason, (to basicly demonstrate, clearly, how powerful Lorgar had become since embracing chaos). Betrayer is, IMHO one of the best stories out there, and anyone whose moderastly intreasted in the ultramarines, word bearers or world eaters, NEEDS to read it. (especially the world eaters. I'd argue it's their story)

I have found ADB to be one of the best BL authors by a wide margin, up to now. So I will most likely read that novel. Thanks for the heads-up, anyway.

by the way


will Calgar give the gauntlets back to Roboute?

 Ashiraya wrote:
Meanwhile most CSM are VotLW!

The legions of Chaos Marines have taken losses from attrition and constant warfare, and have replaced those losses with new recruits, either vat-grown or traitors from more modern times. And that's withotu considering the natural predatory nature of the Warp itself taking many of them. I would be surprised if any more than a handful of the most notable Chaos Marines had such experience.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Meanwhile most CSM are VotLW!

The legions of Chaos Marines have taken losses from attrition and constant warfare, and have replaced those losses with new recruits, either vat-grown or traitors from more modern times. And that's withotu considering the natural predatory nature of the Warp itself taking many of them. I would be surprised if any more than a handful of the most notable Chaos Marines had such experience.

Honestly, whether you find the lore plausible or not is compeletely irrelevant. It's not going to go away no matter how much you dislike it.

If it's too unrealistic, maybe it's best to stick with your mind bullets, giant anime robots, and hulking British soccer hooligan mushroom-hybrid-creatures.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Honestly, whether you find the lore plausible or not is

What I stated IS lore. You being offended by Games Workshop contradicting itself is irrelevant.

I do not see what is contradictory here. You claim that they have taken losses over time, and have replaced these losses over time. This is true, and there are sources for this. But this does not contradict previously linked lore that most veterans still endure.

 Melissia wrote:
I would be surprised if any more than a handful of the most notable Chaos Marines had such experience.

This, however, is where the error lies. Unless you have a text from GW available to contradict, there is no reason to assume that the confirmed information we do have



is false.

 Melissia wrote:
You being offended by Games Workshop contradicting itself is irrelevant.

As much as I am sick of the 'haha did you get offended' crowd that infests the internet, since there are a fair few things that are indeed offensive and should be handled with appropriate tact, Games Workshop contradicting itself is not one of those things. This you will see should you be able to provide a verifiable quote that contradicts above image. I mean, if you can, that just places us in the same mess as 'how tall are space marines' and then there is nothing more to do about that tangent. But if there isn't one, then we just take the information we have, surely?

what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

In some places, yes it means they fought in the heresy. But in others it doesnt. I believe Huron has VotLW, and he certainly wasnt in the heresy. On the other hand I dont think Fabulous Bill has VotLW, while he did fight in the heresy.

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

In some places, yes it means they fought in the heresy. But in others it doesnt. I believe Huron has VotLW, and he certainly wasnt in the heresy. On the other hand I dont think Fabulous Bill has VotLW, while he did fight in the heresy.

right so in the term of the line from IA it's really a pretty useless term. does it mean "they all fought in the heresy? does it mean "they've all got a few fights vs the IoM under their belt"?

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

In some places, yes it means they fought in the heresy. But in others it doesnt. I believe Huron has VotLW, and he certainly wasnt in the heresy. On the other hand I dont think Fabulous Bill has VotLW, while he did fight in the heresy.

Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

In some places, yes it means they fought in the heresy. But in others it doesnt. I believe Huron has VotLW, and he certainly wasnt in the heresy. On the other hand I dont think Fabulous Bill has VotLW, while he did fight in the heresy.

Fabius does have VotLW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

 Ashiraya wrote:
This, however, is where the error lies. Unless you have a text from GW available to contradict, there is no reason to assume that the confirmed information we do have

GW itself disagrees. Things are stated as propaganda. Taking everything literally as absolutely true is ridiculous. Otherwise we have Marines both stated as supremely godlike beings... and being stupid enough that they happen to forget the important details of their briefings about the enemy they're going to face mere hours afterwards. Being stronger than the average person, but being unable to overpower a single strength 1 entity. I'm not really interested in arguing when the argument consists of grasping at single lines of text taken out of context from obscure books very few people have read.

Roboute better not be complaining about Chapters because he was the one who wrote the codex to split the legions

LightKing wrote:
Roboute better not be complaining about Chapters because he was the one who wrote the codex to split the legions

I doubt he'll complain, but the question is if he'll belive the policy needs to be reviewed.

another thing...

I wonder who is going to have more authority between Roboute and Celestine

can't one presume that she is at least on his level in terms of power?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

The point being that Veterans of the Long War may not necessarily refer to veteran of the long war in the sense FW used it, especially since it is not a rule in use by FW at all. Hence, stubborn may not necessarily be Stubborn, which is a comparable situation.

 Melissia wrote:
Things are stated as propaganda.

Well yeah but literally anything can be propaganda. The entire existence of the Sisters of Battle could be nothing but an incredibly elaborate and lengthy propaganda campaign designed to inspire common citizens with the possibility that humans too can fight with bolter, PA and chainsword and tackle the big beasties of the galaxy, and the same could be said for anything from the Custodes to the Titan Legions. Hell, basically the entirety of the setting could be nothing but propaganda meant only to ensure citizens are terrified of the wars supposedly being fought out there so they won't rebel. It's a bit of a non-argument.

 Melissia wrote:
I'm not really interested in arguing

Yet here you are.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
what exactly does "Veteran of the long war" MEAN though? do you have to have fought in the heresy? I don't recall it ever being defined

In some places, yes it means they fought in the heresy. But in others it doesnt. I believe Huron has VotLW, and he certainly wasnt in the heresy. On the other hand I dont think Fabulous Bill has VotLW, while he did fight in the heresy.

Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Yeah, guess I got it half right.

Still Huron was just an ordinary chapter master who went traitor in 900M41. He fought the Badab war for 8 years. You would expect he would only be 300-600 years old. Certainly a veteran of some sort, but not Heresy level.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

The point being that Veterans of the Long War may not necessarily refer to veteran of the long war in the sense FW used it, especially since it is not a rule in use by FW at all. Hence, stubborn may not necessarily be Stubborn, which is a comparable situation.

Guess its up to interpretation, then.

Will Roboute have authority over Celestine?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Huron has it so does Bile, it still supports the idea that VOTLW does not limit itself to SM that fought during the HH.

Only if you also think a character cannot be stubborn without being Stubborn.

What? Huron wasn't there during the HH, yet he has VOTLW, its pretty clear this means VOTLW isn't limited to the HH

The point being that Veterans of the Long War may not necessarily refer to veteran of the long war in the sense FW used it, especially since it is not a rule in use by FW at all. Hence, stubborn may not necessarily be Stubborn, which is a comparable situation.

Guess its up to interpretation, then.

40k really has a habit of throwing things that way, doesn't it...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LightKing wrote:
Will Roboute have authority over Celestine?

I am fairly sure both exist outside the formal heirarchy.

In practice, Guilliman is the literal son of the Emperor and I imagine Celestine is going to be his buddy out of respect if nothing else (which could be interesting as she is the physical manifestation of the idea that the Emperor is a god, something Guilliman is perhaps not a fan of.)

LightKing wrote:
another thing...

I wonder who is going to have more authority between Roboute and Celestine

can't one presume that she is at least on his level in terms of power?

I doubt it, Celestine's only authority comes from being a living saint. Gulliman has a host of titles to his name, and IIRC is basicly one of the "Apostles"

What i am most excited to see is how the other space marine chapters will react besides the Ultramarines

will they yeild to Roboute's rule?

whats preventing the more radical elements of the elesicarchy from whining that he is just a trick/mirage/faker due to the fact that xenos technology may have been used to revive him?

Girlyman is still technically a High Lord of Terra as they did not revoke his positon out of respect when he was presumed dead. So he out ranks everyone but other high lords.

As for other marines thats a non issue betwen retcons to Black Templars and them gutting Space pups and Imp Fists there is no one to stop them due to all the many UM successors still being subservient to the UM effectively making them a legion.

DragonRaptor wrote:
whats preventing the more radical elements of the elesicarchy from whining that he is just a trick/mirage/faker due to the fact that xenos technology may have been used to revive him?

St Celestine standing next to him and saying the Emperor protects (and also smites)

If they are able to work together that's some of the most powerful elements of the Imperium - the Church and the Astartes (well the loyal ones)
The Guard will follow the Church and the Astartes

The Mechanicus - well again if Cawl says its all good and he retains his status with Mars - again difficult to see them being against it.

What's left

The Inquisition - well likely as usual some will be against, some for and lots on the fence.
Maybe some Chapters of Astartes - but I think few would be against a Primarch

and even the inqusition would be inclined to accept it if Greyfax happened to give him a "clean bill of health" I suspect, given how much of a hard core puritan she is.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

SeanDrake wrote:
Girlyman is still technically a High Lord of Terra as they did not revoke his positon out of respect when he was presumed dead. So he out ranks everyone but other high lords.

As for other marines thats a non issue betwen retcons to Black Templars and them gutting Space pups and Imp Fists there is no one to stop them due to all the many UM successors still being subservient to the UM effectively making them a legion.

ugh, first of all, the UM sucessors aren't super duper subservant to the UMs any more then the feast of blades proves the IF sucessors are are secretly a legion. sure there is respect due to the common history, but that doesn't mean much, that said if the Primarch returns, yes I expect many if not all UM sucessors to at least hear him out, and if they reasonably can, follow his requests.

that said, the other sucessor chapters aren't going to nesscarily suddenly be hostile to him, he may not be THEIR Primarch, but he's A Primarch, and a VERY influential one at that. of all the Primarchs out there I suspect Gulliman commands the most respect of the loyalist primarchs outside of his own sons (save Sanguinis whose dead) hell we know Black Templars are traveling with Celestine, for all we know they'll be rallying their brethren to Gulliman's side. I mean, if it happens it's not hard to find out why. save the emperor himself returning, a crusade force lead by Gulliman and Celestine is pretty much the greatest crusade the IoM has known since the Great Crusade

and even the inqusition would be inclined to accept it if Greyfax happened to give him a "clean bill of health" I suspect, given how much of a hard core puritan she is

Hmm not sure how much weight she would have as:

She is apparently from a different era - but no clue when as apparently she recently killed Valeria as well (???) so who would know her?

Some of her peers may /conceivably detect the Necron mind shackle as Cawl did.

She is, ironically, the most heretical of the recent Imperial characters.

I think a lot of it will depend on what Roboute decides to do. He designed a lot of the current Imperial institutions and the fact the whole thing is still standing (just about) 9000 years later is a pretty impressive testament to that. Ironically he really needs to be made Warmaster in order to save the Imperium effectively and he worked very hard to make sure no one could ever wield that much power again.

I doubt the current state of the Imperium will please him but he is very smart and also a pragmatist. He will not want to cause any infighting while the Imperium is in such jeopardy. Most likely he will do whatever needs to be done to deal with the current crisis without making too many waves. Meanwhile, he will quietly be making plans for Imperium 2.0.

Is Celestine a "Command" authority? I sort of thought she was more like a temporary apparition that occurs and then disappears again. I would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy/Sisters Canonesses would be the natural authorities of any Sororitas task force, and function as an adjunct to regional Guard/Chapter command (with any of those factions acting as overall command).

I honestly don't know where Celestine fits in there.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Is Celestine a "Command" authority? I sort of thought she was more like a temporary apparition that occurs and then disappears again. I would have thought that the Ecclesiarchy/Sisters Canonesses would be the natural authorities of any Sororitas task force, and function as an adjunct to regional Guard/Chapter command (with any of those factions acting as overall command).

I honestly don't know where Celestine fits in there.

She is def more of a deus ex machina but her backing of RG would be as valuable as Cawls - if you have the Miltary, the Church and the Mechanicum there should be little than can stand against you - Vandire did not have that much and he pretty much ruled the Imperium until his death.

The Sororitas are as independant as the Astartes - you can ask them to do things but they choose, they have a wide brief to protect the holy and the church from both internal and external threats. They are however not found in large numbers.

would Gulliman even need her backing though? as I udnerstand it all of the loyalist primarchs are considered saints in their own right. I daresay Gulliman is remembered as "the greatest of primarchs" especially given that it's suggested the traitor primarchs are largely covered up, and much of Horus' achomplishments ended up laid at Gulliman's feet.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He'd seek out Bjorn the Fell-Handed being the only Loyalist from the same era and get himself updated on what has happened since the Heresy.
The Space Wolves don't do the Codex Astartes but they do make liquor strong enough to kill a human and poisons that allow a Space Marine or even a Primarch to feel it.

After hearing what has happened to the Imperium even RG is gonna need sommething bracing.

also just because the space wolves don't use the codex, doesn't mean they'd not give Gulliman some props. (I've always thought that a GREAT novel would be a combined Ultramarine/Space Wolf operation. they start off in conflcit over each others approuch, but by the end have come to appreciate each other. it's like a buddy cop movie with Marines )

as much as the whole spirtual leige thing is mocked, I do think Gulliman is most likely to be the most respected primarch among all marine chapters regardless of their background. if only for his role as a architect of the IoM

Man, that would work like an episode of the A Team. WIth Robute as Hannibal, Grimnar as BA Barakus, Cypher as Face and a Harliquin as Murdoch.

Durandal wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
He'd seek out Bjorn the Fell-Handed being the only Loyalist from the same era and get himself updated on what has happened since the Heresy.
The Space Wolves don't do the Codex Astartes but they do make liquor strong enough to kill a human and poisons that allow a Space Marine or even a Primarch to feel it.

After hearing what has happened to the Imperium even RG is gonna need sommething bracing.

also just because the space wolves don't use the codex, doesn't mean they'd not give Gulliman some props. (I've always thought that a GREAT novel would be a combined Ultramarine/Space Wolf operation. they start off in conflcit over each others approuch, but by the end have come to appreciate each other. it's like a buddy cop movie with Marines )

as much as the whole spirtual leige thing is mocked, I do think Gulliman is most likely to be the most respected primarch among all marine chapters regardless of their background. if only for his role as a architect of the IoM

Man, that would work like an episode of the A Team. WIth Robute as Hannibal, Grimnar as BA Barakus, Cypher as Face and a Harliquin as Murdoch.

<lights cigar>

I love it when a crusade comes together!

Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

LightKing wrote:
Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

No, that would be silly.

First, the Imperium is currently under siege from Abaddon's Black Crusade - he will want to address that before he does anything else.

Second, the Imperium has far bigger priorities than the existence of a Daemon Primarch who (at this point) isn't terribly active in realspace. Guilliman needs to focus on what he does best, and what he is uniquely capable of doing - slowing (but even for him, probably not stopping) the decline and losses of the Imperium to the various factions nibbling away at it.

Third, even IF Guilliman were capable of striking Fulgrim down (again), what effect would it really have? Fulgrim is a Daemon now, and he'll just respawn in the warp. That sounds like a complete waste of time and effort to me.

 Karhedron wrote:
I think a lot of it will depend on what Roboute decides to do. He designed a lot of the current Imperial institutions and the fact the whole thing is still standing (just about) 9000 years later is a pretty impressive testament to that. Ironically he really needs to be made Warmaster in order to save the Imperium effectively and he worked very hard to make sure no one could ever wield that much power again.

I doubt the current state of the Imperium will please him but he is very smart and also a pragmatist. He will not want to cause any infighting while the Imperium is in such jeopardy. Most likely he will do whatever needs to be done to deal with the current crisis without making too many waves. Meanwhile, he will quietly be making plans for Imperium 2.0.

Imperium 2.0....Imperium Secundus? Tricundus maybe

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

No, that would be silly.

First, the Imperium is currently under siege from Abaddon's Black Crusade - he will want to address that before he does anything else.

Second, the Imperium has far bigger priorities than the existence of a Daemon Primarch who (at this point) isn't terribly active in realspace. Guilliman needs to focus on what he does best, and what he is uniquely capable of doing - slowing (but even for him, probably not stopping) the decline and losses of the Imperium to the various factions nibbling away at it.

Third, even IF Guilliman were capable of striking Fulgrim down (again), what effect would it really have? Fulgrim is a Daemon now, and he'll just respawn in the warp. That sounds like a complete waste of time and effort to me.

fair point....

Im interested in how you think Roboute will interact with the church, the high lords of terra, the inqusition etc.?

LightKing wrote:
Im interested in how you think Roboute will interact with the church, the high lords of terra, the inqusition etc.?

Church: Probably doing more good them harm. Not what Dad wanted; deal with later.
HLoT: Probably doing more harm then good, but a massive problem to sort out. If handled poorly, has the power to screw everything up in a fit of pique, or just a reaction to a threat to their power. Assess angle of attack, reform system without resulting in civil war/anarchy. As to if a swift stroke or a slow turn is needed would require details we really don’t have. But someone of RG’s skills should be able to figure out. This problem is firmly in his wheelhouse.
Inquisition: Largely fragmented. Individuals can be threats or assets. Try to turn the first half into the second. Powerful tools if they can be harnessed/directed. Requires a subtle touch.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

LightKing wrote:
Guys,


should Roboute focus on getting revenge against Fulgrim

No, that would be silly.

First, the Imperium is currently under siege from Abaddon's Black Crusade - he will want to address that before he does anything else.

Second, the Imperium has far bigger priorities than the existence of a Daemon Primarch who (at this point) isn't terribly active in realspace. Guilliman needs to focus on what he does best, and what he is uniquely capable of doing - slowing (but even for him, probably not stopping) the decline and losses of the Imperium to the various factions nibbling away at it.

Third, even IF Guilliman were capable of striking Fulgrim down (again), what effect would it really have? Fulgrim is a Daemon now, and he'll just respawn in the warp. That sounds like a complete waste of time and effort to me.

Fourth, Guilliman and the imperium cant go after Fulgrim in the eye of terror. It's not like Rowboat can travel through the warp on his own, land on Fulgrim's planet and beat his way through a world of daemons to get to him. Even then, Fulgrim is no sloach, particularly when powered up in the eye.

Given all these observations about political realities / leadership of the Ultramarines / Imperial Church / presence of the Black Legion / revenge on Fulgrim / interaction with the High Lords of Terra, I am forced to ask: who in the universe would Roboute Guilliman not have a problem with?

Seems like he was better off dead.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Given all these observations about political realities / leadership of the Ultramarines / Imperial Church / presence of the Black Legion / revenge on Fulgrim / interaction with the High Lords of Terra, I am forced to ask: who in the universe would Roboute Guilliman not have a problem with?

Seems like he was better off dead.

I wonder about all this. GW's marketing campaign is fixed on having the Primarch "save the Imperium"

Yet everyone here seems to want Roboute to get bogged down in internal politics and not face the great narrative threat of Black Crusade.

While i have no doubt that our Primarch will have to make a lot of.....adjusments... to his new situation, i'm surprised so many people don't think he has the level of flexibility to make a Compromise or Two in order to Save the Imperium.

Because ultimately, that's what the Mission Statement is - Save the Imperium. All other considerations are going to go to the back burner.

The other issue of course is taht all these other internal institutions are facing the same exact problem....

The Ship of State is sinking, the Sharks in the water are circling... are they really that idiotic enough to complain about who gets to wear the shiny hat of leadership when Death might be upon them?

Gulliman I suspect isn't gonna come back and be a high Lord. he's gonna come back and be warmaster,

GrapeApe wrote:
I wonder about all this. GW's marketing campaign is fixed on having the Primarch "save the Imperium"

And the problem is that this is just kind of boring and cliche.

Oh look some relic from the past is coming along thinking he can solve all of our problems which he knows next to nothing about. How droll.

The idea that "the heroes of the past" are better than the heroes that are acting RIGHT NOW is as cliche as it gets in fiction, and it's one cliche I resoundingly reject.

 Melissia wrote:

GrapeApe wrote:
I wonder about all this. GW's marketing campaign is fixed on having the Primarch "save the Imperium"

And the problem is that this is just kind of boring and cliche.

Oh look some relic from the past is coming along thinking he can solve all of our problems which he knows next to nothing about. How droll.

The idea that "the heroes of the past" are better than the heroes that are acting RIGHT NOW is as cliche as it gets in fiction, and it's one cliche I resoundingly reject.

Oh i'm in agreement with your assessment.

Except... what's the ultimate limiting factor when assessing 40K lore - in terms of what GW will do?

Does this change to the Setting - will it Sell Models?

An intellectual property like Star Trek or Star Wars - figurines, games, etc are derivative merchandising connected to a story told either in books or movies.

Books/Movies/Stories come First, the rest is extra.

An intellectual property like 40K, the sales of Models and the Game come First. Fluff and story take a back seat to that focus.

The perfect example that springs to mind in this regard is what happened to Warhammer Fantasy and the Age of Sigmar.

I loved Warhammer Fantasy for its low-fantasy feel, but i've seen the figures in terms of AoS sales. I'm obviously in the minority.

When you step away from all the story elements for a second and just look at the Return of the Primarch thing from a business standpoint:

1.) SM sell. I've always wanted to see stats in terms of how much SM sells in comparison to the rest of the 40K pie. I've got a gnawing feeling that if group collectively, SM probably take up the lion's share.

2.) Ultramarines sell. They are often billed as your Basic Starter Chapter. So i'm assuming (and if i'm wrong, someone please show me some stats!) that Ultramarines Sales > Space Wolves or Dark Angels, or Blood Angels, etc.

So yeah - makes sense bringing back the Ultramarine Primarch to go fight [Insert Evil Thing].....even if it is Cliche.

I understand why they do it. Understanding something doesn't mean agreeing with it or finding it more interesting than other choices.

in fairness one of the major thematic elements of 40k from it's inception has indeed been that "the things of modern day are but a shadow of those of the past"

BrianDavion wrote:
in fairness one of the major thematic elements of 40k from it's inception has indeed been that "the things of modern day are but a shadow of those of the past"

exactly, the whole theme of 40k is that humanity was at a much greater state in the past, technology wise and also as a civilization

And another one is "countless unknown heroes sacrifice themselves to maintain the status quo, for however grim it is, it's still better than what it could be". Which to me is far more interesting than bringing back a hero from a forgotten age.

Take for example, the Grey Knights:

We do not know what our chances of survival are, so we fight as if they were zero. We do not know what we are facing, so we fight as if it was the dark gods themselves. No one will remember us now and we may never be buried beneath Titan, so we will build our own memorial here. The Chapter might lose us and the Imperium might never know we existed, but the Enemy - the Enemy will know. The Enemy will remember. We will hurt it so badly that it will never forget us until the stars burn out and the Emperor vanquishes it at the end of time. When Chaos is dying, its last thought will be of us. That is our memorial - carved into the heart of Chaos. We cannot lose, Grey Knights. We have already won.

Hell, I'll mock the over the top aspects of the Grey Knights as much as anyone, but that? THAT is awesome. That, to me, is the essence of what it means to be a Space Marine-- something that so many of GW's writers forget about when they're trying to write Sir Godslayer Worldshatter McBadassfist the Third.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 shinros wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:
My biggest question is why bring back Guilliman first?
Wouldn't it have been far better to bring back Russ to banish Magnus?
That would have made the writing so much better. Magnus single handedly destroyed a large battle fleet and was proving to be seemingly invincible. Until he gets distracted and the Grey Knights banish him out of nowhere.....
Would've made a lot more sense If Russ showed up with some serious buffs courtesy of Khorne, rallied the Imperial forces and then have EVERYONE throw EVERYTHING at Magnus, who would probably just barely be killed after exhausting Russ' Khorne buffs.
Would've made things more cinematic and would've made the most sense considering they introduced Magnus first.

That sounds pretty bad to me personally and I think RG makes the most sense to come back first considering the current threat the imperium is facing.

How is that bad? That's literally the most metal thing that could have happened. Its not exactly unlike Khorne to give favor to dudes explicitly against him so long as they spill gratutious amounts of blood...effectively worshipping him anyway.
Is RG gonna politick away the Chaos force heading for the imperium's throat? I know what you're saying: the Imperium's biggest problem right now is a lack of organization....and you're wrong.
Magnus showed up, turned Fenris (a fething ball of ice) into a desert and annihilated one of the most formidable fleets assembled in recent memory...effortlessly. If he were to show up on Terra the Imperium is done.
And hes likely far stronger now given that he has a firm hold in real space now that his daemon world is near Prospero. And there are fething 5 others!!!!
Some undone paperwork isnt as threatening to an empire as daemonic gods barreling down at you like a meteor is. Its that simple

Stuff like that is exactly why I don't want primarchs to come back.

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman I suspect isn't gonna come back and be a high Lord. he's gonna come back and be warmaster,

Not Warmaster, Lord Commander.

Also, how did he get The Emperors sword? Who gave it to him ... did he get to stand in His presence ?!

Mellow wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman I suspect isn't gonna come back and be a high Lord. he's gonna come back and be warmaster,

Not Warmaster, Lord Commander.

Also, how did he get The Emperors sword? Who gave it to him ... did he get to stand in His presence ?!

I used warmaster for a VERY specific reason

Re the sword,

one of the relics in codex Space Marines is "the burning blade" which is belived to have been the emperor's sword. the easiest explination is that Gulliman wields it.

if we move away from that and seek a more complex answer, consider that prior to his injury at Fulgrim's hands, Gulliman was the leader of the High Lords of Terra, and de facto, the Emperor's sucessor. it's possiable the sword was recovered, and the surviving primarchs universally agreed that Gulliman should have it, as it might serve as a symbol in his hands, and since his injury it has sat revered, in the vaults of Macragge.

Sounds like a sensible answer to me.

Although I prefer to think he walked up to the Throne and took it. With the help of Trayzn.