I alternate between two stores, about 10 minutes apart. Store A and B we'll call them. Started the hobby at store A 4 or 5 years ago I think. Owner had the store since the 90s, is the only person that runs the shop, so only open from 1 to 9. Bought most of my early stuff from them outside of a few things. Was really into painting, and they were DA, so I'd easily have whatever I bought painted within 2 weeks, and wasn't buying at a crazy pace so always played with painted models. I knew the owner liked painted models, and everyone there plays with painted models, but I definitely was just painting because I wanted to, not because I felt I had to. About a year later I also started going to store B, they had a decent bit more players and held a lot of events, and they're open until 2 a.m. or later on Fridays instead of 9 p.m. They function a lot more like a club (including an optional membership with benefits), and there's a couple owners that all hang out there at different times. Regardless, had a lot of friends from both stores that I'd play with. Do keep in mind that for the most part everyone goes to one store or the other, but I won't get into that because it's a mess that'd take 10 pages to explain. Although I'll touch on it later.

I forget how long ago it was now, but I took about a year long break from 40k. I think over a year ago actually? When I came back into the hobby, it was with a new job and new hours, noon to 8:30, as well as a new army, an entire guard army that I got all at once (and unfortunately not from either of the stores, since I didn't pay cash for any of it). Meaning that store A was out of the question, since my days off were Mon-Tues (with occasional weekend which I always arraged to line up with tournies at B). Started going every week or two to store B after I got off work, playing Friday nights (or going to the bar, or better yet doing both). Really get along with one of the owners, he would let me into the store on Mondays (normally closed) to play against him. Note here that I have not been painting much. Was excited to use it so spent a month assembling everything, but very slowly trickle out painting, mostly doing big stuff and characters. Barely any of my ~150 guardsmen are painted, most just white primed, outside of special weapons that I want to stand out and my kill team. This was always fine at store B, as a lot of people there have unpainted stuff. A handful are just guys that don't paint, some paint at a normal pace but own like 6 armies, and a couple are extremely good painters but takes them a long time to do it all. No one would ever complain about unpainted, although it is encouraged by most of them.

About 2 months ago my days off were changed to Thurs-Fri, opening up plenty of time for Friday 40k. At first I just started going to store B earlier so I'd have more time at the bar, but decided to stop by store A to see how things were going there, catch up with some people. Was asked if I wanted to get a game in, said sure, let me grab my guard out of the car. I start unloading the boxes and get a "oh" from my opponent. Is something wrong? "I didn't know they weren't painted." Oh, is that a problem? I don't have my DA with me, but if you don't want to play that's fine (I know some people are like that). "No, it's fine, I guess..." He seems kind of, idk, uncomfortable about it?

Set up all my stuff, start our game, about half an hour in store owner comes over after finishing whatever he had been doing. Stares very intently at my army. He says a couple things about them being unpainted, I explain how I ended up getting them and that I don't want to rush through a load of guardsmen, but he seems very unhappy about it. Says maybe I should bring my DA if I want to play there, that he doesn't want me using unpainted. Not an outright ban from using them, just that he strongly recommends I use painted. Kind of makes me feel like there'll be an "accident" in the parking lot if I don't

I know about half of you are going to be on his side, but why is that? Am I supposed to hold off playing with my new toys for a year after I buy them? Painting is supposed to be fun, and at this point in time it is not fun for me, and as such I really don't want to trudge through it and come to hate painting. Would you prefer I angrily slop paint on them? I get that they look cool when they're well done, but is it wrong for me to just want to throw some dice before I finish them? I'd obviously bring my DA if you want to record it or something, but for a casual pickup game?

And so now I do see why a lot of people don't play at store A. There are plenty of other reasons (this guy doesn't like that guy, and issues with one owner or the other, and that B holds events when A rarely does), but I'm pretty sure painted has to be one of them. Do I keep playing there with them and just ignore the displeasure of the owner? Stop going there and stick with B? I don't really feel like using my DA on their own, as that's partially why I took a break (totally not traitors marines vs yiff in hell marines vs sparkle in the sunlight marines vs spiritual liege marines...).

Or there's always the final option, just spend most of Friday at the bar....

 kingbobbito wrote:
I know about half of you are going to be on his side, but why is that?

Because 40k sucks as a game, and therefore a large part of my enjoyment is the aesthetic value of the models. Unpainted models look like and significantly damage that aesthetic value.

Am I supposed to hold off playing with my new toys for a year after I buy them?

If it takes you a year to paint a new unit then yes. Fortunately you have a different army you can use while you work on getting your new stuff up to an acceptable standard.

I'd say to completely ignore Peregrine there, first and foremost. Hobbies are not a job. It's about enjoyment. If you force yourself to paint a crap ton of units, you won't enjoy it and the quality will likely suffer greatly.

Secondly, it sounds like you should just stick to store B if Store A is going to give you issues. From the sounds of it they'll either keep treating you like you've pissed in their wheaties or perhaps even prevent you from playing your new army by denying you games.
Store B just sounds like a much better atmosphere to play and also sounds like it has better opportunities if you're into events.

You are 100% entitled to use unpainted models. Other people are 100% entitled to give preference to people who come with painted armies.

Why not use DA with a small number of Guard allies at Store A and gradually use more Guard as you get more painted? You could still use Guard at Store B.

 mmzero252 wrote:
It's about enjoyment.

And my enjoyment requires painted models. If you're willing to have a game with models that look like and can still enjoy it, great, but I'm not going to pretend that I find anything appealing about unpainted models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
It's about enjoyment.

And my enjoyment requires painted models. If you're willing to have a game with models that look like and can still enjoy it, great, but I'm not going to pretend that I find anything appealing about unpainted models.

Sounds like you'll fit right in with Store A along with the other people who feel you can dictate how other people enjoy THEIR hobby.

I don't really see what the issue is here. Nobody's seemingly being a prick about it, just one place has expressed a preference that you use painted models. If you don't want to use painted models, there's somewhere else you can go; if you want to play at store A, then you have another, painted, army you can use. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 Peregrine wrote:
If it takes you a year to paint a new unit then yes.

A unit is 150 guardsmen, 6 bullgryn, 10 scions, 2 chimeras, 8 rough riders (that need built), and the vendetta I'm getting next month ? I have several other hobbies, so I only paint a couple hours every week or two. 4 days a week I'm at the gym, I do a lot of pc gaming, a decent bit of time each day online, 40k once, board game nights, a night or two at the bar. Once the weather starts to warm up most of my spare time will be spent hiking or kayaking. Unlike some 40k is not my life, nor do I want it to be.

 mmzero252 wrote:
Sounds like you'll fit right in with Store A along with the other people who feel you can dictate how other people enjoy THEIR hobby.

I missed the part where I have any power to force anyone to paint anything. If you don't enjoy painting, fine, just don't expect to play against me. And don't expect me to pretend that your unpainted models are worthy of respect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:
A unit is 150 guardsmen, 6 bullgryn, 10 scions, 2 chimeras, 8 rough riders (that need built), and the vendetta I'm getting next month ? I have several other hobbies, so I only paint a couple hours every week or two. 4 days a week I'm at the gym, I do a lot of pc gaming, a decent bit of time each day online, 40k once, board game nights, a night or two at the bar. Once the weather starts to warm up most of my spare time will be spent hiking or kayaking. Unlike some 40k is not my life, nor do I want it to be.

Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

 Peregrine wrote:
And my enjoyment requires painted models. If you're willing to have a game with models that look like and can still enjoy it, great, but I'm not going to pretend that I find anything appealing about unpainted models.

Great for you. But why should the owner insist I use painted? He won't enjoy someone playing a game that he isn't even watching if I use unpainted? There are people there that are fine with unpainted, it's just a couple and the owner that insist upon it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

Because I don't find it enjoyable to run allies outside of 1850 or larger but I mostly play 1000.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
If it takes you a year to paint a new unit then yes.

A unit is 150 guardsmen, 6 bullgryn, 10 scions, 2 chimeras, 8 rough riders (that need built), and the vendetta I'm getting next month ? I have several other hobbies, so I only paint a couple hours every week or two. 4 days a week I'm at the gym, I do a lot of pc gaming, a decent bit of time each day online, 40k once, board game nights, a night or two at the bar. Once the weather starts to warm up most of my spare time will be spent hiking or kayaking. Unlike some 40k is not my life, nor do I want it to be.

I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, but it seems a bit like you're expecting everyone to adjust their gaming preferences to accommodate you, rather than being at all willing to compromise. Which you're free to do, but you can't expect everyone's going to like it. As has already been discussed, there's several possible compromises (use your painted army at store A; gradually add Guard units to it as you paint them; go to store B if you want to play with your unpainted stuff). Yet you're kinda chucking your toys out of the pram because not everyone's cool with you doing exactly as you please, i.e. using an unpainted army in a shop where the convention, and preference, is for painted models.

I wouldn't go as far as to say you're in the wrong, as such, because it's not really a clear-cut moral issue, rather just a nuance of social interaction, but maybe you should just chill a bit about this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And my enjoyment requires painted models. If you're willing to have a game with models that look like and can still enjoy it, great, but I'm not going to pretend that I find anything appealing about unpainted models.

Great for you. But why should the owner insist I use painted? He won't enjoy someone playing a game that he isn't even watching if I use unpainted? There are people there that are fine with unpainted, it's just a couple and the owner that insist upon it.

Ultimately, it boils down to "his shop, his rules". Don't like it? Then you don't have to go there.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

Because I don't find it enjoyable to run allies outside of 1850 or larger but I mostly play 1000.

I refer you to my previous comment in which I suggested you're maybe being a bit inflexible about this.

 Nazrak wrote:
I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, but it seems a bit like you're expecting everyone to adjust their gaming preferences to accommodate you, rather than being at all willing to compromise. Which you're free to do, but you can't expect everyone's going to like it.

It really is just the owner that's bothering me. I don't mind if a player says they don't want to play because I have unpainted, it's just there are 2 people I talked to that said they're totally cool with unpainted and would rather play against guard than DA, but that can't happen because of the store owner. Why does it bother him that I use unpainted?

What really makes me sad is that store B has about 25 40k players while store A has 6, all but 1 using marines. I just don't want A to die out all together.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

Because I don't find it enjoyable to run allies outside of 1850 or larger but I mostly play 1000.

Okay, so YOU don't find doing that enjoyable. Tell me, how is that any different to Store A's opinion? The guys at Store A don't find it enjoyable when you run unpainted plastic at them.
Either way, someone's enjoyment is stifled.

You don't like to paint, they don't like playing an unpainted army. No-one is more right than another. You are in full rights to do what you like with your models (although the "no time to paint" argument doesn't work - instead of going out and gaming with your models, spend a night in and paint a unit or so. Unless your issue with painting isn't time, and rather that you don't want to). They have full rights not to like it. Does that mean they can do anything about it? No - except the owner of store A. If they put in a rule of "no unpainted models", and they are fully obliged to, it's their store, then you will either have to paint them or not go into Store A.

The choice is yours. Store A doesn't have to change their policy, they own the store.
So, what matters more? Your enjoyment at the expense of others, or appeasing other people?

The guys I talked to that moved to B said 10 years ago he had about 30 or 40 regulars, but because of various rules he has laid out people keep leaving. It just makes me sad that his rules are killing his store.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, but it seems a bit like you're expecting everyone to adjust their gaming preferences to accommodate you, rather than being at all willing to compromise. Which you're free to do, but you can't expect everyone's going to like it.

It really is just the owner that's bothering me. I don't mind if a player says they don't want to play because I have unpainted, it's just there are 2 people I talked to that said they're totally cool with unpainted and would rather play against guard than DA, but that can't happen because of the store owner. Why does it bother him that I use unpainted?

What really makes me sad is that store B has about 25 40k players while store A has 6, all but 1 using marines. I just don't want A to die out all together.

Some people just prefer painted models and, ultimately, if that's the store owner's preference, then what he says goes.

As for the second part, maybe it's worth having a one-to-one chat with the owner and see if you can reach some kind of understanding – explain that, given the abundance of marine players, you'd prefer to use Guard, and maybe the other players would appreciate the variety. Maybe offer to work towards painting, say, one squad every couple of weeks (or whatever rate the two of you can agree on), until it's all done?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
He's not necessarily going to agree to it, but maybe if you demonstrate a willingness to compromise, he will too? Certainly can't hurt to try.

 kingbobbito wrote:
The guys I talked to that moved to B said 10 years ago he had about 30 or 40 regulars, but because of various rules he has laid out people keep leaving. It just makes me sad that his rules are killing his store.

If that's what he wants, leave him to it.

But he is the owner, and if you want to game in store A, you are more or less required to do so by his rules, or you don't go in there.

Something else that just occurred to me – if you find painting a bit of a chore, and don't have much time for it, have you considered farming the Guard army out to a commission painter?

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, but it seems a bit like you're expecting everyone to adjust their gaming preferences to accommodate you, rather than being at all willing to compromise. Which you're free to do, but you can't expect everyone's going to like it.

It really is just the owner that's bothering me. I don't mind if a player says they don't want to play because I have unpainted, it's just there are 2 people I talked to that said they're totally cool with unpainted and would rather play against guard than DA, but that can't happen because of the store owner. Why does it bother him that I use unpainted?

What really makes me sad is that store B has about 25 40k players while store A has 6, all but 1 using marines. I just don't want A to die out all together.

It sounds like A is losing it's player base because of the owner's attitude. I've heard a couple stories like this before and it was the same way with them. You at least have an alternative store close to go to otherwise.

Another option is to maybe try and get Store A to do some killteam games if you enjoy that game mode. You can play Guard while other people can jump in at a low entry cost/easy enough amount of units to fully paint. My local store held 3-4 killteam tournaments and the player turnout increased each time. It's also a good way for Store A to maybe get some variety in armies...unless the marine guys are literally only interested in marines.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

Because I don't find it enjoyable to run allies outside of 1850 or larger but I mostly play 1000.

Okay, so YOU don't find doing that enjoyable. Tell me, how is that any different to Store A's opinion? The guys at Store A don't find it enjoyable when you run unpainted plastic at them.
Either way, someone's enjoyment is stifled.

You don't like to paint, they don't like playing an unpainted army. No-one is more right than another. You are in full rights to do what you like with your models (although the "no time to paint" argument doesn't work - instead of going out and gaming with your models, spend a night in and paint a unit or so. Unless your issue with painting isn't time, and rather that you don't want to). They have full rights not to like it. Does that mean they can do anything about it? No - except the owner of store A. If they put in a rule of "no unpainted models", and they are fully obliged to, it's their store, then you will either have to paint them or not go into Store A.

The choice is yours. Store A doesn't have to change their policy, they own the store.
So, what matters more? Your enjoyment at the expense of others, or appeasing other people?

Again. 2 of 6 of the people at store A want me to use my guard. And I want to use my guard. Because marines vs marines vs marines vs marines is not fun. I am not forcing those 2 people to play my unpainted models. They want to. The owner is the only one preventing it. And they are thinking of abandoning store A so they can play against me. Is it really worth dropping down to four total players?

 kingbobbito wrote:
But why should the owner insist I use painted?

Because a major purpose of having in-store gaming is marketing. People come into the store for other things, see the game, and decide to buy it. A game between painted armies looks interesting and helps sell the product. A game with unpainted looks like and doesn't sell the product as well. And, as a nice bonus, requiring painted models as a general rule means less arguing about it for individual games. It's just the accepted standard that you paint your models before you bring them in.

 Peregrine wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
But why should the owner insist I use painted?

Because a major purpose of having in-store gaming is marketing. People come into the store for other things, see the game, and decide to buy it. A game between painted armies looks interesting and helps sell the product. A game with unpainted looks like and doesn't sell the product as well.

No games going on sells even less

Sounds like the store should just pull warhammer products from the shelves because all the people are leaving.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

Because I don't find it enjoyable to run allies outside of 1850 or larger but I mostly play 1000.

Okay, so YOU don't find doing that enjoyable. Tell me, how is that any different to Store A's opinion? The guys at Store A don't find it enjoyable when you run unpainted plastic at them.
Either way, someone's enjoyment is stifled.

You don't like to paint, they don't like playing an unpainted army. No-one is more right than another. You are in full rights to do what you like with your models (although the "no time to paint" argument doesn't work - instead of going out and gaming with your models, spend a night in and paint a unit or so. Unless your issue with painting isn't time, and rather that you don't want to). They have full rights not to like it. Does that mean they can do anything about it? No - except the owner of store A. If they put in a rule of "no unpainted models", and they are fully obliged to, it's their store, then you will either have to paint them or not go into Store A.

The choice is yours. Store A doesn't have to change their policy, they own the store.
So, what matters more? Your enjoyment at the expense of others, or appeasing other people?

Again. 2 of 6 of the people at store A want me to use my guard. And I want to use my guard. Because marines vs marines vs marines vs marines is not fun. I am not forcing those 2 people to play my unpainted models. They want to. The owner is the only one preventing it. And they are thinking of abandoning store A so they can play against me. Is it really worth dropping down to four total players?

Again, maybe it's worth bringing this up with the store owner in question. He's certainly going to be more able to address your issues with his policy than a bunch of randos on the Internet. And remember, he's not inherently in the wrong here, it's very much just a difference of opinion, so if you can bring it up politely, and demonstrate that, while you don't hold the same viewpoint, you're respectful of his, then he's much more likely to hear you out.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Why do you have to paint it all at once? You can paint single units and add them to your painted DA army, keeping a painted army at all times.

Because I don't find it enjoyable to run allies outside of 1850 or larger but I mostly play 1000.

Okay, so YOU don't find doing that enjoyable. Tell me, how is that any different to Store A's opinion? The guys at Store A don't find it enjoyable when you run unpainted plastic at them.
Either way, someone's enjoyment is stifled.

You don't like to paint, they don't like playing an unpainted army. No-one is more right than another. You are in full rights to do what you like with your models (although the "no time to paint" argument doesn't work - instead of going out and gaming with your models, spend a night in and paint a unit or so. Unless your issue with painting isn't time, and rather that you don't want to). They have full rights not to like it. Does that mean they can do anything about it? No - except the owner of store A. If they put in a rule of "no unpainted models", and they are fully obliged to, it's their store, then you will either have to paint them or not go into Store A.

The choice is yours. Store A doesn't have to change their policy, they own the store.
So, what matters more? Your enjoyment at the expense of others, or appeasing other people?

Again. 2 of 6 of the people at store A want me to use my guard. And I want to use my guard. Because marines vs marines vs marines vs marines is not fun. I am not forcing those 2 people to play my unpainted models. They want to. The owner is the only one preventing it. And they are thinking of abandoning store A so they can play against me. Is it really worth dropping down to four total players?

If Store A's rules say that you should use painted models, then them's the rules.
It's up to you if you want to follow them or not.

What matters more to you?
Playing a game with your guardsmen, and not compromising? Offending the store owner, who has all rights to remove you?
Keeping Store A afloat, even though it's own rules seem to be hurting it?
Compromising and painting your models instead of going in, then allowing you to play in store A without anyone leaving?

Dude, you have store B that allows your unpainted models, and there is Store B that prefers painted models.

Store A's owner has clearly cultivated a very different gaming community in his store, which he probably finds his customers prefer and which he probably prefers himself. I doubt he regards his store as just a business. With hours like 1-9pm, I'd imagine he regards it as business/hobby/lifestyle all rolled into one. Also, he is suggesting a strong preference, not insisting. If he sees your army becoming more painted rapidly, I'm sure he'll cut you some slack. Myself and others responded to your reasonably phrased initial post with sympathy and suggestions, but at the end of the day, if the owner doesn't want you to use unpainted models at his store, well, tough, go to store B. And if Peregrine and others only enjoy playing against painted armies, then tough, find other opponents.

For the record, I'll play against unpainted opponents. My own armies are rarely 100% painted, which disappoints me. But if I have a choice of playing against my mate Ian (Arbitorian from this forum - you all know how awesome his armies look) and my other friend or Dan's unpainted Admech, I'll probably prefer Ian. But I know Dan's Admech will be painted soon, so I won't throw my toys out of the pram if he offers a game with them.

 mmzero252 wrote:
It sounds like A is losing it's player base because of the owner's attitude. I've heard a couple stories like this before and it was the same way with them. You at least have an alternative store close to go to otherwise.

Another option is to maybe try and get Store A to do some killteam games if you enjoy that game mode. You can play Guard while other people can jump in at a low entry cost/easy enough amount of units to fully paint. My local store held 3-4 killteam tournaments and the player turnout increased each time. It's also a good way for Store A to maybe get some variety in armies...unless the marine guys are literally only interested in marines.

I tried to start a kill team league a while back to get players interested. Even though it earned him revenue since I got 4 new players started, he didn't want a league that people didn't have to pay for. Have to buy at least $15 worth of stuff every week if you want to play in it, even though these are brand new players who aren't familiar with the game or sure they want to invest much in the game. Didn't hurt me since I was building my army at the time, but after 3 weeks they had all quit. Instead of letting them learn the ropes and take their time, they were given an ultimatum of spend money or drop the game.

So I guess there are more reasons than this that I dislike owner of A.

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
But why should the owner insist I use painted?

Because a major purpose of having in-store gaming is marketing. People come into the store for other things, see the game, and decide to buy it. A game between painted armies looks interesting and helps sell the product. A game with unpainted looks like and doesn't sell the product as well.

No games going on sells even less

Sounds like the store should just pull warhammer products from the shelves because all the people are leaving.

The store owner can put whatever rule they want in. If they're getting enough income to hang in there, so be it.
They don't have to change unless they want to.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 kingbobbito wrote:
But why should the owner insist I use painted?

Because a major purpose of having in-store gaming is marketing. People come into the store for other things, see the game, and decide to buy it. A game between painted armies looks interesting and helps sell the product. A game with unpainted looks like and doesn't sell the product as well.

No games going on sells even less

Sounds like the store should just pull warhammer products from the shelves because all the people are leaving.

The store owner can put whatever rule they want in. If they're getting enough income to hang in there, so be it.
They don't have to change unless they want to.

I've got no issue with how the store runs things. It's just my opinion based on Bobbito's claim that he won't have any warhammer players soon. Maybe non-regulars, but my local store was already shrinking their stock down to nearly nothing before we brought a HUGE surge of players back. My local store just 7 months ago had maybe 1-2 regular players and had stopped all events because of it. They were about to stop carrying the game entirely because that amount of people couldn't make them a profit.

Again, no games going on means it will be hard for customers passing through to be exposed to the game. Painted or unpainted, no free marketing means less sales.

And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

I'm a big fan of painting units in parts so I can get all the nooks and crannies. But I've gotten extraordinarily good at blue tacking arms and heads onto infantry so you would never know. It's all just temporary until I finish painting them, but in a pinch (tournaments with 1 week notice), it works out well enough.

I have played against some armies that were fully assembled before painting that you couldn't even tell though. All depends on the painter.

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

Not sure this is necessarily true – it's perfectly possible to paint all the IG models I've ever seen to a good standard without resorting to sub-assemblies.

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

I don't think I've seen more then 2 people in the last 10 years paint their models' parts before assemble.

And 1 of them is because he paints commissions professionally

It's your time. Spend it how you want to.

Playing the game is not about painted miniatures. It's about playing the game. Painting the miniatures is it's own little subset of the hobby as a whole.

I don't play with people who have elitist attitudes about ANY facet of the hobby. But I DEFINITELY would not play against anyone who was giving someone crap about having an unpainted army. I would actively avoid spending any of my time with them.

The game has so many barriers to entry. Besides stigma against it, you have cost of miniatures, cost of rules, complexity of the game and the semi steep learning curve, time of assembly of miniatures. If someone who is thinking about taking the dive and getting into the hobby witnesses some jerk asses in the store giving people crap because the models are not painted more likely than not we as a community just lost a potential member.

Nothing is worse for the hobby/community.

 mmzero252 wrote:
I'd say to completely ignore Peregrine there, first and foremost. Hobbies are not a job. It's about enjoyment. If you force yourself to paint a crap ton of units, you won't enjoy it and the quality will likely suffer greatly.

Secondly, it sounds like you should just stick to store B if Store A is going to give you issues. From the sounds of it they'll either keep treating you like you've pissed in their wheaties or perhaps even prevent you from playing your new army by denying you games.
Store B just sounds like a much better atmosphere to play and also sounds like it has better opportunities if you're into events.

Agreed. Hobby is supposed to be fun! If unpainted doesn't interfere with that for you then go for it.

Now whether to play at store A is bit of more issue. Obviously opponents are free to not play against unpainted army(if it hurts their enjoyment why should they be forced to play? It goes both way) so you might be getting less willing opponents there. Still since you do have the painted army you could just use that. Or shift playing completely to store B but if you still enjoy playing at store A that might be just shooting at your own foot.

Now if attitude of owner of store A annoys you there's easy counter point. Buy from store B. You aren't in requirement to buy from them so if they don't want you to buy from them(by making you feel unwelcome) then don't buy from them. It's their job to entice you to buy from them. Not yours to buy from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
It's about enjoyment.

And my enjoyment requires painted models. If you're willing to have a game with models that look like and can still enjoy it, great, but I'm not going to pretend that I find anything appealing about unpainted models.

That gives you right to not play vs unpainted. Not right to demand them to paint models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kingbobbito wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
I don't want to sound like I'm having a go here, but it seems a bit like you're expecting everyone to adjust their gaming preferences to accommodate you, rather than being at all willing to compromise. Which you're free to do, but you can't expect everyone's going to like it.

It really is just the owner that's bothering me. I don't mind if a player says they don't want to play because I have unpainted, it's just there are 2 people I talked to that said they're totally cool with unpainted and would rather play against guard than DA, but that can't happen because of the store owner. Why does it bother him that I use unpainted?

What really makes me sad is that store B has about 25 40k players while store A has 6, all but 1 using marines. I just don't want A to die out all together.

Easy solution then. Play at store A. Either with DA or IG and ignore owner. Just don't buy from them.

If your problem is with owner then punish him rather than yourself or other players there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nazrak wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

Not sure this is necessarily true – it's perfectly possible to paint all the IG models I've ever seen to a good standard without resorting to sub-assemblies.

Yeah. IG aren't hard that way. And if there's nook that's hard to paint that's nook that ain't visible afterwards anyway so no biggie anyway.

Horus gave it his 110%. He failed in the end but at least he tried.

For myself. Meh I'd probably smirk and have a momentary look of amusement in my eyes. Then I'd shrug and get on with the game. Might get the occasional question to help me distinguish between the grey.

Just don't come with a bag of cheetohs please, I won't unpack a single model.

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Might get the occasional question to help me distinguish between the grey.

The one thing I do make sure of is to paint guys with special weapons to distinguish them from the squad better, and my command squads are painted. I'm working on getting priests, commissars, and psykers painted right now.

 kingbobbito wrote:

 ProwlerPC wrote:
Might get the occasional question to help me distinguish between the grey.

The one thing I do make sure of is to paint guys with special weapons to distinguish them from the squad better, and my command squads are painted. I'm working on getting priests, commissars, and psykers painted right now.

That's more important for me than whether army is painted right now. If I can see periodic progress then no complains. Horde armies take ages to paint. I have painted several so I know from bitter experience FB orcs, 40k orks(twice), IG(twice), skaven...

When i got back into 40k i decided not to play with plastic or merely primed models. Slowly growing an army, adding single units i do from building to basing and only then taking them to the table is far more satisfying than i expected. Granted i dont get nearly as many games in as i did in the days of the gray hordes, but when i do i get far more enjoyment out of it.
If you, however, don't get to paint much or don't want to but you DO want to play, there is nothing wrong with that. Just don't get mad at that store owner, if he wants only painted models on his tables (which are probably entirely painted as well ). In a completionist way, he is right about the hobby.
On a side note i'm a pretty busy person, married, father and dog owner, with a tendency to outdoors things. So i know how much that hurts to invest those 2-3 hobby hours into doing something you don't actually feel like. If that's the case try to get more fun out of painting, like listening to podcasts or music. I tend to go to the flgs to paint, so i can have some proper 40k discussions while prettying up my toys

A lot of opinions round here sound like "If you can't paint a perfectly straight line on a tiny piece of shoulder trim then you don't deserve to play with us" to me. I think i'll go burn all of my space marines.

Regarding store A. I would think you "unpainted army" might be better received if every time you take it there there is noticeable progress toward getting it painted. I think it would be as easy as just painting a few models and mention getting models painted while you were there. Kinda like smoke and mirrors. But at the same time just keep finding time to paint more of your models.
And then point those out at every opportunity.

 warhead01 wrote:
Regarding store A. I would think you "unpainted army" might be better received if every time you take it there there is noticeable progress toward getting it painted. I think it would be as easy as just painting a few models and mention getting models painted while you were there. Kinda like smoke and mirrors. But at the same time just keep finding time to paint more of your models.
And then point those out at every opportunity.

Problem with that theory being OP got wrath of owner upon him on very first time he brought IG to table(unless I misread post). So owner didn't even give chance to see progress.

I don't know anyone who wouldn't prefer to play against a gloriously painted army over straight plastic (ignoring owner and their attitude, personality, etc).

But anyone who refuses to play against it is pretty much an asshat. You dictate how you treat your models. If the owner doesn't want your unpainted guys elsewhere, he'll keep that attitude til he closes. Anyone is free to refuse a game based on paint color, day of the week, or lack of paint. Doesn't make them right. But they can do it. But nobody can dictate how you treat your models. That's your choice. Anyone telling you otherwise is a person you should put on your ignore list; both on here and in real life.

First and foremost...a shop owner can dictate who plays in his/her store and what/how. They will either sink or swim as a result of their decisions. Short of discussing it with the owner, it's not up to you or anyone else. Same way a store owner can kick someone out for smelling like butt. The store owner gets to dictate the environment they want to put forth. GW stores are the same way (and there's technically nothing different between a GW store and a normal hobby shop). GW is in business to sell GW products so they can make any rules they want regarding what models you can/can't use and how they should be painted, etc.

Like it or not, tabletop miniatures games are intended to be played on 3D terrain with painted terrain/figures. If not, we'd use paper standies or 2D chits or tiles, etc. A lot of people don't have the time or money (or motivation) to paint big armies, so that's a tough break on them. You're free to play however you wish, but don't hold a grudge against people because they expect you to do your "part" toward creating a better gaming environment. Playing any game like this is part of a community effort (often sharing the cost of tables, terrain, painted armies, dice, templates, etc.). When you show up to the table you're bringing your part of the gaming experience.

I'm fortunate that in my mid-30's now I mainly play with an established group of games, mostly older than me, who agree to play games at an elevated level. Nothing fancy, but unpainted stuff doesn't hit the table. If we're going to find time to game, we'll make sure it's worth it and it's simply a matter of respect to show up and bring painted stuff (including terrain, etc.). We don't play on soda cans and cardboard because we're no longer broke 14-15 year olds. Painting models to a reasonable, playable standard isn't hard (making gigantic 40K armies probably is...that's why I still prefer skirmish games).

No one is telling anyone how to enjoy THEIR hobby, but understand that it's insulting if you put time/effort into creating a gaming experience to show up and find cardboard shoe boxes and unassembled/half-painted models ("oh these legs are my dreadnought") on the table. At that point you're impacting the other person's enjoyment of the game. You might be having fun, but you're not pulling your weight to create the spectacle (who doesn't want to play out the big beautiful games you've seen in White Dwarf as a kid? That's the point isn't it?). Put in some effort. There's nothing elitist or wrong wanting to play an aesthetically pleasing game. If it takes you six months to put together a force? No big deal. There are plenty of fantastic things you can play in the meantime.

While my gaming group can enjoy beautiful large scenic wargames, we'll just as readily throw down some X-Wing or Zombicide, or BSieged, etc. Many people in my gaming group "host" games where they provide everything so many of the games we've played have been in progress for a year or more. That's just good old fashioned patience.

Just shop at the other store and reccomend to everyone else to do so. vote with your wallet

NivlacSupreme wrote:
A lot of opinions round here sound like "If you can't paint a perfectly straight line on a tiny piece of shoulder trim then you don't deserve to play with us" to me. I think i'll go burn all of my space marines.

You do that. Make sure to film it and set it to some death metal. That'll get loads of views on the youtube.

It has been said many times before, a store owner can put down any rules he or she wishes. It might be a plus if they are visible in writing. I know of a store that has a back room as a dedicated game room, and they have the rules on the wall. Nothing really fancy, lot of common sense stuff like cleaning up afterwards, clearing the tables after use, no fat or greasy snacks just to keep the area, tables and scenery clean by preventing leakage, that sort of rules. People can choose to live by those rules or seek games (and business) elsewhere. The more restrictive the rules become, for example by forcing people to only play with fully painted armies, the smaller the chances are that all players attending the store will be able to follow them. I get that a game in progress, with two beautiful fully painted armies, is a grand sight to behold, and is also a fine advertisement for the game itself. Unless the players playing with the beautiful fully painted armies are total failures themselves (for whatever reasons, such as low personal hygene, or being elitist scum, or chasing away other customers because they don't like to be watched).

That said, I always feel free to play a game against somebody I seem to like. I couldn't care about the paint-state of his or her army. As long as I can tell which model is what, and am aware of any special cases, I'm fine with that. I might refuse to play people with a beautiful fully painted army if they come off as total social failures. I once visited a store where a guy had a beautiful fully painted army. Nobody wanted to play with him, however. Physically throwing a kid to the floor because it was about to touch his models was a jerk reaction. I know people tend to get protective of their beautiful fully painted army. But call back the kid. Verbally reprimand it in a stern but fair way. Have a little chat about common courtesy rules and property, teaching the young'uns something valuable. Oddly, the store owner didn't respond to any of this, at all.

Something else that has been mentioned before, is the satisfaction of painting a single unit or character, and having it done (well). Then add it to your army. I get that, I see that as well, and any time I finsih a unit, I feel that hobby satisfaction too. I also enjoy a battle between beautiful fully painted armies just that little more than a battle without beautiful fully painted armies for the visual spectacle it brings. But I have a job for at least 40 hours a week. I have a wife who needs some attention every now and then. I like movies and tv series. Sports, parents, shopping sprees and groceries. Holiday breaks spent away from home and the hobby area. Walking the dog. Currently performing maintainance on the house, to put it up for sale and move on to a bigger house. When I was 14, I had very little cares in the world. Now at 40 something I have a lot to do, which I never saw coming. And all of which interferes with the hobby more than going to school, making home work, and having all the free time I once had.

Which bring me to the OP. You mentioned the gym. You mentioned board game nights. You mentioned a lot of other things. You seem to be a little like me. As such, you can afford to be a little more picky where and with whom you spend your time. And money. No longer liek how store A is being run? Skip it, go to store B. Want to save store A? Talk to the manager or owner about what irks you. Depending on the response you might still choose to frequent store A, or simply mention that the attitude they give you is the reason why store B now has those same 10, 20, 30 customers that used to hang out at store A first. Or don't mention that. As BrianDavion said, simply vote with your wallet.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
Just don't get mad at that store owner, if he wants only painted models on his tables (which are probably entirely painted as well ). In a completionist way, he is right about the hobby.

The funny thing is, when he relocated his store he decided not to use his old tables as they were very dilapidated, I think he might have sold them or even just gotten rid of them. His plan was to build new tables, but 6 months later and everyone there is still playing on plywood.

Something that I noticed that no one seems to have mention could be that you disappeared for a year then suddenly show up with a massive unpainted guard army.

Is it possible that on top of the army not being painted the owner might be a little salty that you did not buy the army from him?

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
Something that I noticed that no one seems to have mention could be that you disappeared for a year then suddenly show up with a massive unpainted guard army.

Is it possible that on top of the army not being painted the owner might be a little salty that you did not buy the army from him?

One of the first things I talked about with him and the guys there is how I got my new guard army (trading for tf2 hats) and at that point he didn't have any objections, just that he's surprised digital hats go for hundreds of dollars.

...Elaborate on how you make money from TF2? I do have some, er, science titans projects I want...

 Verviedi wrote:
...Elaborate on how you make money from TF2? I do have some, er, science titans projects I want...

Keep in mind that this was over years, and that there is a reasonable amount of investment (time and money) required, and that normally you can only sell items for steam credit.

There are plenty of tutorials online for it, but basically you use the item drop and crafting systems combined with trading and familiarity with the market. Keep in mind over 4 years I probably spent $300, but because I got lucky with 2 crates and did a lot of trading I had almost $1000 worth of items.

Again, normally you trade items via the steam market, which results in steam credit. However, I have a few trustworthy individuals that wanted my items. I gave them a slight discount over what I'd charge them on the steam store, just gifted it to them, and in exchange they'd buy x dollars of a list of models that I wanted with my address as the shipping destination.

Not something everyone can do, and it's sort of gambling at times, and it took 4 years.

Ack. Understood. Best thing I ever got was worth $5.

 Peregrine wrote:
And here's another issue: if you're doing a good job of painting your models you're almost certainly doing it with unassembled parts since fully assembled models usually have areas that are impossible to reach and paint cleanly (guns held across the model's chest, vehicle interiors, etc). So unless you're willing to ruin your models before painting them those unpainted models are probably more like legs on bases, cardboard boxes with "Chimera" written on them, etc.

Umm...not necessarily. I've seen perfectly good results from people who painted fully assembled models as opposed to subassemblies. Myself included, although I don't think I'm an amazing painter or anything. I have done some models in subassemblies (particularly larger ones), but the vast majority of my stuff is fully assembled before I paint it. The only spots you are likely to miss with this method are ones that will be impossible to see anyway. For large and/or complex models, subassemblies are indeed the way to go, as it can be awkward trying to hold a large model in your hand and paint a small detail precisely.

I've also seen people game with their WIP models in subassemblies and just hold them together with poster tack and rubber bands. It works for long enough to play a game, and you can easily take the model back apart to finish working on it afterwards.

In short, nobody is "ruining" their models by fully assembling them before painting. They just want to be able to game with them. It's fine if you don't like playing with or against unpainted models; you are certainly entitled to choose who you play with. Different strokes for different folks, and all that.

Maybe because I am in the pro-painted only camp, but I am not seeing the hostility from posters that agree that miniatures should be painted or store owner's store, store owner's rules.

However, posts from Lance845 and timetowaste85 seem particularly aggressive (and borderline hypocritical) to people like me who don't enjoy games with unpainted miniatures. My miniatures are mine, I don't have to game with anyone I don't want to, and they have the exact same right. If I encountered someone that didn't like the level of my painting on my miniatures and didn't want a game that is their prerogative. No bad feelings I my part.

For me, I just don't see the point to playing a miniatures game for 2+ hours with either side having bare plastic miniatures. My enjoyment comes out of the spectacle of a good looking table with with decently painted forces. To do otherwise, just seems fairly pointless and a bit of a waste of money.

I have declined games with other players for unpainted armies. I knew they were not new to miniatures gaming and many had owned said army for some time with not a lick primer (and often half constructed as well). I tried to be as respectful as I could and attempted to explain where I was coming from and there is nothing wrong with playing unpainted miniatures. Only that I would be less than enthusiastic to play due to this and could result in a pretty boring game since I wouldn't be giving it my all. Most players understood my reasons, even if they didn't agree with them.

The thing is I am not telling anyone they can't play with unpainted miniatures. However, unpainted miniatures drops below my level of enjoyment to be worthwhile. I understand this limits my pool of opponents. I am fine with that. So much so that rather than having to decline games, I stopped going to gaming stores. I don't feel bad explaining my reasons and the other person isn't put into an uncomfortable position.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Maybe because I am in the pro-painted only camp, but I am not seeing the hostility from posters that agree that miniatures should be painted or store owner's store, store owner's rules.

However, posts from Lance845 and timetowaste85 seem particularly aggressive (and borderline hypocritical) to people like me who don't enjoy games with unpainted miniatures. My miniatures are mine, I don't have to game with anyone I don't want to, and they have the exact same right. If I encountered someone that didn't like the level of my painting on my miniatures and didn't want a game that is their prerogative. No bad feelings I my part.

I am glad you don't have bad feelings. My aggressiveness is because I can see the damage it does to the community. While YOU might take no offense, as a gamer, participating in games, which are social and require other people, any attitude that actively discourages people from playing (playing being a very key word here... not in the sense of a game is going but that it's a GAME you PLAY for FUN) is destructive to that community. As I said, the hobby itself is already a lot to get past for new people to come join and have some fun. Throw in members of the community who's attitude towards playing other people is elitist and you actively work against the core values of the hobby and push new blood away.

For me, I just don't see the point to playing a miniatures game for 2+ hours with either side having bare plastic miniatures. My enjoyment comes out of the spectacle of a good looking table with with decently painted forces. To do otherwise, just seems fairly pointless and a bit of a waste of money.

It's fine that you enjoy that. But the paint is not the game. Playing the game does not require paint. Its requires following the rules. Again, it's about the community you help foster. Those unpainted armies could one day be the best paint jobs you ever see. A noob who knows nothing about the hobby might see some painted minis and be interested in jumping in. Then they might see one player or the store owner put down another player for having grey plastic and decide their time is better spent having actual fun with people who don't have a stick up their ass.

I have declined games with other players for unpainted armies. I knew they were not new to miniatures gaming and many had owned said army for some time with not a lick primer (and often half constructed as well). I tried to be as respectful as I could and attempted to explain where I was coming from and there is nothing wrong with playing unpainted miniatures. Only that I would be less than enthusiastic to play due to this and could result in a pretty boring game since I wouldn't be giving it my all. Most players understood my reasons, even if they didn't agree with them.

Some people don't enjoy painting, or modeling. Some players just like to play the game. The hobby as a whole is multifaceted and people will do what they enjoy to the extent they enjoy it.

The thing is I am not telling anyone they can't play with unpainted miniatures. However, unpainted miniatures drops below my level of enjoyment to be worthwhile. I understand this limits my pool of opponents. I am fine with that. So much so that rather than having to decline games, I stopped going to gaming stores. I don't feel bad explaining my reasons and the other person isn't put into an uncomfortable position.

I am glad you don't go to game stores anymore. I am not against your reasons or your enjoyment. I am against the impact your attitude has in places that should be fostering as many people joining up, learning, and having some fun. But unfortunately I have been to too many places where your attitude about a single facet of the hobby was dug in so deep that the location was boarder line hostile to the "grey unpainted" and that helps nobody.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
I don't know anyone who wouldn't prefer to play against a gloriously painted army over straight plastic (ignoring owner and their attitude, personality, etc).

Well in the context of this specific thread, I'd rather play an unpainted guard army than a gloriously painted space marine army As long as I can tell what stuff is.

It sounds like you really enjoy the painting and modeling. You should make dioramas. You should find other like minded individuals who might want to work on a project to build a large battle scene diorama and then show off the fruit of your labors. More power to you.

But the moment you begin participating in another facet of the hobby (the game) it is your responsibility as a member of the community to understand how your actions foster that aspect of the hobby.

It's as vital as good sportsmanship and a handshake before/after the game. It's as vital as basic respect. A bad attitude towards playing a game with someone because they have not or do not want to participate in painting is as bad as poor sportsmanship. As bad as being disrespectful. It's corrosive to the community.

Yes, I am aggressive and hostile towards that.

 Lance845 wrote:
any attitude that actively discourages people from playing (playing being a very key word here... not in the sense of a game is going but that it's a GAME you PLAY for FUN) is destructive to that community.

So we agree that using unpainted models is destructive to the community, as some of us are discouraged from playing when we have to look at unpainted when we play. Conclusion: paint your models.

Throw in members of the community who's attitude towards playing other people is elitist and you actively work against the core values of the hobby and push new blood away.

Counter-point: if those new players aren't going to paint their models then I don't care if they are pushed away. Nothing of value to me is being lost. In fact, by removing the awkward situation where I have to choose between slogging through an unpleasant experience against an unpainted army or making someone upset by refusing a game, pushing those players away adds value to the community.

But the paint is not the game.

Of course it is. The aesthetic value of the game is just as important as the rules, especially in a game like 40k where the rules are an exercise in masochism.

Those unpainted armies could one day be the best paint jobs you ever see.

Maybe, but not terribly likely given the number of unpainted armies I've seen that stay unpainted indefinitely with no sign of ever changing. The only way most of those models are getting painted is if the community collectively says "paint your models or you aren't welcome here".

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
any attitude that actively discourages people from playing (playing being a very key word here... not in the sense of a game is going but that it's a GAME you PLAY for FUN) is destructive to that community.

"paint your models or you aren't welcome here".

Peregrine is exactly the kind of person I would never have anything to do with.

 Lance845 wrote:
Peregrine is exactly the kind of person I would never have anything to do with.

An attitude which, by your own standards, is destructive to the community. It's interesting how destructive behavior that you agree with seems to be ok, and only things that you don't agree with are worthy of outrage.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Peregrine is exactly the kind of person I would never have anything to do with.

An attitude which, by your own standards, is destructive to the community. It's interesting how destructive behavior that you agree with seems to be ok, and only things that you don't agree with are worthy of outrage.

Here is your logical argument written out about a different topic.

Me: "Bigotry is bs. I don't want anything to do with anyone who is racist/sexist/homophobic. It's a crap ideology that actively damages the community that should be encouraging people from all walks of life!"

You: "But the National Socialist Movement is a walk of life! Your attitude of shunning me is, by your own standards, destructive to a community that encourages people from all walks of life!"

If you cannot understand the difference nobody on the internet is going to be able to explain it to you.

Do you even still play 40k, Peregrine? Based on your posts you make it sound like every game of 40k is terrible for you. I just picture you playing 40k as some sort of masochistic endeavour.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Do you even still play 40k, Peregrine? Based on your posts you make it sound like every game of 40k is terrible for you. I just picture you playing 40k as some sort of masochistic endeavour.

Rarely, mostly I just work on the models. The lack of painted armies in the area is a major factor, if people didn't have so much gray plastic I'd probably be more interested in playing.

 Lance845 wrote:
Here is your logical argument written out about a different topic.

Me: "Bigotry is bs. I don't want anything to do with anyone who is racist/sexist/homophobic. It's a crap ideology that actively damages the community that should be encouraging people from all walks of life!"

You: "But the National Socialist Movement is a walk of life! Your attitude of shunning me is, by your own standards, destructive to a community that encourages people from all walks of life!"

If you cannot understand the difference nobody on the internet is going to be able to explain it to you.

Yes, because "I don't want to play against painted models" is totally equivalent to Nazism, and this is a reasonable thing to say...

No, I said it was your logical argument.

I said A is counter to B
B is desirable.
A should be shunned.

You said the act of shunning A is, by your argument, counter to B.

I didn't say you were a Nazi. I said your argument was dumb and then I used a comparison by inserting something anyone would be able to see is stupid into your arguments structure.

If you have a point to make about your attitudes effect on the community you are going to need a better argument to support it.

Sorry, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who thinks making comparisons between "I don't want unpainted models in the community" and Nazism is a reasonable thing to say.

Perfect. I often find it difficult to continue a debate with someone who doesn't understand metaphors and comparisons as a way to debunk false equivalencies and bad arguments.

But then... your not the kind of person I would want anything to do with anyway. So win-win.

Not going to lie, but Peregrine has the right of it.

You're comparing a harmless preference of painting plastic models to Nazism.
I don't know where to begin.

 Lance845 wrote:
Perfect. I often find it difficult to continue a debate with someone who doesn't understand metaphors and comparisons as a way to debunk false equivalencies and bad arguments.

But then... your not the kind of person I would want anything to do with anyway. So win-win.

I too would deny anyone with his attitude games. My local store frowns on people turning down friendly games, but they would probably ask him to leave regardless.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not going to lie, but Peregrine has the right of it.

You're comparing a harmless preference of painting plastic models to Nazism.
I don't know where to begin.

::rolls eyes:: I did not. I swapped a few words in our arguments to show how fallible his was. I never said, "Not wanting to fight unpainted models is the equivalent of Nazis". I said the logical argument he was making in one debate is the same as making that same argument in a different debate. The logic fails. If you look at the Nazi argument as a logical statement and you see how flawed the logic is then you should easily be able to look at Peregrines argument against the attitude of shunning unpainted models and see the same holes.

It's incredible how fixated you and he are on a comparative statement about the validity of his argument. Not even about his actual stance.

I hate it when people moan about not having painted miniatures! I am a terrible painter, not much skill, very slow at it and most of the time I struggle to get it all done. I see no problem with having unpainted miniatures as long as they are all stuck together properly. I find quickly base coating a whole line of them so they are 'playable' ruins the quality of models with sloppy paint jobs. Funny story to tell...

I got right told off at GW Nottingham because I had some models assembled but not painted. The hierarchy came over and said 'well its because you could have stolen those miniatures and assembled them quickly from a shop, so you can't use them'. Now part of his argument is fair but would anyone really open up the boxes, steal some clipper and glue, fix them up and then start playing in front of everyone? I think not!' I tried to explain the reasons why they weren't painted and they were having none of it. I was told I was 'banned from playing or entering GW' Now I don't know if he meant GW Nottingham or all the stores ???? !!!!!

Whilst I was being chastised for unpainted miniatures, there was a guy playing Necron's with terribly painted black basecoat. His 'best model' was the C'tan Nightbringer which was base coated but not glued together! What did he use you ask? He stuck the arms on with Blu-Tack, yes Blu-Tack! And he was allowed to play!

Since then I quit 40K and as of this year have decided to give it another go on a small scale, in which I paint my models fully to the best of my meagre abilities in one go.

So the owner has a strong opinion on only painted models for games, how does he attract new customers.
Example: a kid buys into the hobby, builds his models then comes in for a game with them unpainted. Is the owner going to tell him he can't play in store.
I agree that having two well painted armies in a game is good for the shops marketing, but the owner has to remember its the customers time and effort in painting said models that makes his shop look better. If he's then banning unpainted models, well that makes Shop B look better and will drive newer customers to them.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I hate it when people moan about not having painted miniatures! I am a terrible painter, not much skill, very slow at it and most of the time I struggle to get it all done. I see no problem with having unpainted miniatures as long as they are all stuck together properly. I find quickly base coating a whole line of them so they are 'playable' ruins the quality of models with sloppy paint jobs. Funny story to tell...

I got right told off at GW Nottingham because I had some models assembled but not painted. The hierarchy came over and said 'well its because you could have stolen those miniatures and assembled them quickly from a shop, so you can't use them'. Now part of his argument is fair but would anyone really open up the boxes, steal some clipper and glue, fix them up and then start playing in front of everyone? I think not!' I tried to explain the reasons why they weren't painted and they were having none of it. I was told I was 'banned from playing or entering GW' Now I don't know if he meant GW Nottingham or all the stores?!

Whilst I was being chastised for unpainted miniatures, there was a guy playing Necron's with terribly painted black basecoat. His 'best model' was the C'tan Nightbringer which was base coated but not glued together! What did he use you ask? He stuck the arms on with Blu-Tack, yes Blu-Tack! And he was allowed to play!

Since then I quit 40K and as of this year have decided to give it another go on a small scale, in which I paint my models fully to the best of my meagre abilities in one go.

If you were going to steal those by going through that whole chain of events why wouldn't you paint them in the store as well?

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Perfect. I often find it difficult to continue a debate with someone who doesn't understand metaphors and comparisons as a way to debunk false equivalencies and bad arguments.

But then... your not the kind of person I would want anything to do with anyway. So win-win.

I too would deny anyone with his attitude games. My local store frowns on people turning down friendly games, but they would probably ask him to leave regardless.

Why do people have to compromise their own enjoyment of the game to satisfy others? Just because what other people enjoy about the game is different than what you enjoy doesn't mean they are inherently wrong.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Perfect. I often find it difficult to continue a debate with someone who doesn't understand metaphors and comparisons as a way to debunk false equivalencies and bad arguments.

But then... your not the kind of person I would want anything to do with anyway. So win-win.

I too would deny anyone with his attitude games. My local store frowns on people turning down friendly games, but they would probably ask him to leave regardless.

Why do people have to compromise their own enjoyment of the game to satisfy others? Just because what other people enjoy about the game is different than what you enjoy doesn't mean they are inherently wrong.

Because painting is not the game and encouraging a elitist attitude damages the growth of the community. That second part IS inherently wrong.

 Lance845 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Perfect. I often find it difficult to continue a debate with someone who doesn't understand metaphors and comparisons as a way to debunk false equivalencies and bad arguments.

But then... your not the kind of person I would want anything to do with anyway. So win-win.

I too would deny anyone with his attitude games. My local store frowns on people turning down friendly games, but they would probably ask him to leave regardless.

Why do people have to compromise their own enjoyment of the game to satisfy others? Just because what other people enjoy about the game is different than what you enjoy doesn't mean they are inherently wrong.

Because painting is not the game and encouraging a elitist attitude damages the growth of the community. That second part IS inherently wrong.

Painting models is just as much of the game as assembling models is. Just ask GW.

You're saying that those who like a painted army are "elitist". They're just people with a different preference to yours.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Painting models is just as much of the game as assembling models is. Just ask GW.

Funny, looking over my rule book I do not see a single rule that says anything about having to apply a single coat of anything on the models. Encouraged? Sure! But no... not required. Not a part of the actual game. Completely possible to play the game without it.

Can you find me a rule saying models need paint to be valid?

You're saying that those who like a painted army are "elitist". They're just people with a different preference to yours.

No I am not. I like painted armies. I paint my models. I encourage others to give painting a try. Next month I am running a P&M workshop at my LFGS to help introduce the 10 or so new people we have to the game to give painting a try. Liking painted armies is not elitist.

Refusing to play with people who don't have painted armies is. Creating a culture of looking down on people who have no interest in painting by refusing to let them take part in the game portion of the hobby that they do enjoy is elitist. It's not a different preference. People with that attitude are not just a neutral component to your community. You are a negative. You actively degrade it. If you were willing to allow to each their own and help everyone have fun on their terms you would be great. Show up to the LGS and do some painting there of your own to help people see a part of the hobby they might be nervous to try. And when they decide they don't enjoy that don't segregate them for it.

But if you ARE going to segregate them for it. And worse, make excuses for why it's ok and spread that attitude to others... well... then it's better if you don't show up at all.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Painting models is just as much of the game as assembling models is. Just ask GW.

Funny, looking over my rule book I do not see a single rule that says anything about having to apply a single coat of anything on the models. Encouraged? Sure! But no... not required. Not a part of the actual game. Completely possible to play the game without it.

Can you find me a rule saying models need paint to be valid?

You're saying that those who like a painted army are "elitist". They're just people with a different preference to yours.

No I am not. I like painted armies. I paint my models. I encourage others to give painting a try. Next month I am running a P&M workshop at my LFGS to help introduce the 10 or so new people we have to the game to give painting a try. Liking painted armies is not elitist.

Refusing to play with people who don't have painted armies is. Creating a culture of looking down on people who have no interest in painting by refusing to let them take part in the game portion of the hobby that they do enjoy is elitist. It's not a different preference. People with that attitude are not just a neutral component to your community. You are a negative. You actively degrade it. If you were willing to allow to each their own and help everyone have fun on their terms you would be great. Show up to the LGS and do some painting there of your own to help people see a part of the hobby they might be nervous to try. And when they decide they don't enjoy that don't segregate them for it.

ut if you ARE going to segregate them for it. And worse, make excuses for why it's ok and spread that attitude to others... well... then it's better if you don't show up at all.

Just because you enjoy the gaming side of the hobby the most doesn't mean that not everyone does. Why do people who enjoy the painting side of the hobby the most have to accommodate others when their enjoyment of the game is being negatively affected? If they're being obnoxious about it, fine. But why is it wrong for them to politely decline a game if they think they wouldn't enjoy it?

I only know of one rule that requires painted models. Under the shattered legion rules for HH vehicles are assigned legions based on paintjobs. A colored sticker could probably have the same effect.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Painting models is just as much of the game as assembling models is. Just ask GW.

Funny, looking over my rule book I do not see a single rule that says anything about having to apply a single coat of anything on the models. Encouraged? Sure! But no... not required. Not a part of the actual game. Completely possible to play the game without it.

Can you find me a rule saying models need paint to be valid?

You're saying that those who like a painted army are "elitist". They're just people with a different preference to yours.

No I am not. I like painted armies. I paint my models. I encourage others to give painting a try. Next month I am running a P&M workshop at my LFGS to help introduce the 10 or so new people we have to the game to give painting a try. Liking painted armies is not elitist.

Refusing to play with people who don't have painted armies is. Creating a culture of looking down on people who have no interest in painting by refusing to let them take part in the game portion of the hobby that they do enjoy is elitist. It's not a different preference. People with that attitude are not just a neutral component to your community. You are a negative. You actively degrade it. If you were willing to allow to each their own and help everyone have fun on their terms you would be great. Show up to the LGS and do some painting there of your own to help people see a part of the hobby they might be nervous to try. And when they decide they don't enjoy that don't segregate them for it.

ut if you ARE going to segregate them for it. And worse, make excuses for why it's ok and spread that attitude to others... well... then it's better if you don't show up at all.

Just because you enjoy the gaming side of the hobby the most doesn't mean that not everyone does. Why do people who enjoy the painting side of the hobby the most have to accommodate others when their enjoyment of the game is being negatively affected? If they're being obnoxious about it, fine. But why is it wrong for them to politely decline a game if they think they wouldn't enjoy it?

Funny... I never said I enjoyed the game the most. In fact I spend a lot of time in proposed rules talking about how bad a lot of the game actually is.

In fact the part of the hobby I enjoy the most is doing kit bashes and conversions. I love making custom models. It's a blast when I pull out my Exocrines and people are my local shop go.."What is that thing?! That looks really cool."

Me liking conversions does not mean I expect OTHERS to do conversions. That would be insane. I don't go to other players and tell them "If you haven't stepped outside of the instructions book and built a model using a knife, glue, and some green stuff at least 3 times with the list you put down then I refuse to play with you." That attitude is ridiculous.

You liking paint should not place any ANY expectation on another player. The only expectations you should have when playing the GAME is good sportsmanship and adherence to the rules. If you actually have a worse time because the guy on the other side of the table didn't spend the hours and hours of work you did painting your guys then I would say you should go talk to somebody and get your gak straightened out about what is and is not important. You care way to much about gak that doesn't mater if it has any negative impact on you at all.

And again, any promotion of an attitude in your community that fosters an elitist attitude degrades your community. You make it harder for new people to join and segregate those who don't live up to some imaginary standard. That is wrong. Why do you need to ask why that is wrong?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I only know of one rule that requires painted models. Under the shattered legion rules for HH vehicles are assigned legions based on paintjobs. A colored sticker could probably have the same effect.

Arguably there is one other in the ork codex. Red paint for fast. Yellow for splody. Again... a sticker on the base would suffice. Stick a red glass marker on there. Put a red die next to it. Any indicator the opponent could understand would work. But nothing in the BRB says it's necessary.

So you're shaming others about what they enjoy about the hobby? I don't know what to tell you if you can't understand that people enjoy different things. If sportsmanship and adherence to the rules is what you value that's great. But to some the game is just an excuse to put down beautiful armies on the table and enjoy a few moments in the 41st millennium.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
So you're shaming others about what they enjoy about the hobby?

Again, no. I encourage everyone to like what they like so long as it's not effecting anyone else.

I am shaming others for not having the wherewithal to understand how when they project their crap onto others it hurts everyone. It's not about telling you you are wrong for enjoying taking the time to paint your minis or appreciating another painted army. I am telling you that when your sole reason for not playing another player, in a game that does not require paint, is that they did not paint that you are making your community worse. If you want to invite other players to your home based on the quality of their paint jobs do so. Get enough of them together that you have all the matches you could want with all the prettiest armies. But the moment you step into your LGS you are now representative of the hobbies community. You can either make it better or worse. The attitude you are attempting to defend makes it worse.

Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Painting models is just as much of the game as assembling models is. Just ask GW.

Funny, looking over my rule book I do not see a single rule that says anything about having to apply a single coat of anything on the models. Encouraged? Sure! But no... not required. Not a part of the actual game. Completely possible to play the game without it.

As can I with cardboard cut-outs, provided that they have the right dimensions. And again, ask GW what their view on painting is.

Can you find me a rule saying models need paint to be valid?

Can you show me a rule saying I need models to be fully assembled? Or that I can't play a game with cardboard cut-outs?

You're saying that those who like a painted army are "elitist". They're just people with a different preference to yours.

No I am not. I like painted armies. I paint my models. I encourage others to give painting a try. Next month I am running a P&M workshop at my LFGS to help introduce the 10 or so new people we have to the game to give painting a try. Liking painted armies is not elitist.

Refusing to play with people who don't have painted armies is. Creating a culture of looking down on people who have no interest in painting by refusing to let them take part in the game portion of the hobby that they do enjoy is elitist. It's not a different preference. People with that attitude are not just a neutral component to your community. You are a negative. You actively degrade it. If you were willing to allow to each their own and help everyone have fun on their terms you would be great. Show up to the LGS and do some painting there of your own to help people see a part of the hobby they might be nervous to try. And when they decide they don't enjoy that don't segregate them for it.

That's where you're wrong.

Peregrine has no obligation to play a game he doesn't want to. You have no obligation to play a game you don't want to. We don't exist in a world where the default answer is "yes, I'll play a game". We exist in a world where both players need to consent to a game - if one party doesn't want to play, that's okay. They are not forced to, and nor should they.

I am well within my rights to refuse a game because my opponent brings a flyer.
My opponent is well within their rights to refuse a game because I brought a Superheavy.
Peregrine is within their rights to refuse a game because he doesn't want to play against unpainted models.
You are well within your rights to refuse a game against Peregrine because you dislike his attitude.

If you call Peregrine elitist for refusing a game when he has no obligation to accept, then what are you if you refuse to play against someone with an attitude you dislike?

At the end of the day, both parties walk away happy, and the person who wanted a game can play against someone else, if someone else wants a game.

But if you ARE going to segregate them for it. And worse, make excuses for why it's ok and spread that attitude to others... well... then it's better if you don't show up at all.

Again, people can adopt whatever attitude they want. Why is one attitude inherently worse than another?
Peregrine thinks it's okay to refuse a game based on paint.
You think it's okay to refuse a game based on a player's attitude.

Why is Peregrine's inherently worse than yours? You're segregating Peregrine - according to yourself, "it's better if you don't show up at all." Does the same not apply to you?

Lance845 wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
So you're shaming others about what they enjoy about the hobby?

Again, no. I encourage everyone to like what they like so long as it's not effecting anyone else.

I am shaming others for not having the wherewithal to understand how when they project their crap onto others it hurts everyone. It's not about telling you you are wrong for enjoying taking the time to paint your minis or appreciating another painted army. I am telling you that when your sole reason for not playing another player, in a game that does not require paint, is that they did not paint that you are making your community worse. If you want to invite other players to your home based on the quality of their paint jobs do so. Get enough of them together that you have all the matches you could want with all the prettiest armies.

But in the OP's example, it is the host who is making that rule. The OP is the person entering the host's "home", and not following the host's rules.
In that regard, you support the owner of store A then, do you not?

But the moment you step into your LGS you are now representative of the hobbies community. You can either make it better or worse. The attitude you are attempting to defend makes it worse.

You also support segregation though. You support the segregation of those who deny a game, even though they are well within their right to.

You are making one critical assumption - that I am obliged to play a game. I am not. I don't have to play a game if I don't want to, and nor does my opponent. If they want to, that's fine. If they don',t that's on them. They are allowed to deny a game for any reason, because it's a game. If I want a game, I'll go find someone else.

I would just like to clarify for my own sake - I do not share Peregrine's view on refusing unpainted models. I'll happily play against an unpainted army. But if Peregrine doesn't want to, that's up to them, and I respect their view, same as I respect your view of refusing games because you dislike their attitude.

Honestly it sounds like store a is run by a complete idiot which is sadly, and a lot of game stores since you get people that have no business sense but think all they need to know is how to sell and play games. Playing the my store my rules card only goes so far until people realize that you are a fething moron and go elsewhere

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly it sounds like store a is run by a complete idiot which is sadly, and a lot of game stores since you get people that have no business sense but think all they need to know is how to sell and play games. Playing the my store my rules card only goes so far until people realize that you are a fething moron and go elsewhere

And then they complain why nobody buys from them and blame everyting but themselves.

Hey, just remember Roll Safe

No one can Criticize you for badly painted models if you dont paint them at all...

My wife has an allergy to paint and goes berserk at the sight of a paintbrush. I am not going to argue with my wife to please some people at a game store.

So my armies' paint scheme is unbroken plastic gray. Deal with it.

You most certainly can paint most models to a good standard Unassembled it just takes longer. Probably why I've been playing guard for nearly 20yrs and still my entire army is not completely painted.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:
My wife has an allergy to paint and goes berserk at the sight of a paintbrush. I am not going to argue with my wife to please some people at a game store.

So my armies' paint scheme is unbroken plastic gray. Deal with it.

How is this even possible it's water based acrylic paint. There is like nothing in it thats airborne. My wife has a severe allergy to red dye however she needs to injest it to have an allergic reaction.

@Lance845

You say there is no rules that require the miniatures be painted. By that token, there are no rules that I must accept all games, or I must foster my local gaming community no matter what I want out of a game.

I have a live and let live attitude when in comes to miniatures wargaming. I don't see it as elitist to decline a game based on player's/host's personal preferences in said game. I see not playing a person based unpainted miniatures the same as not wanting to play a game I didn't want to.

Tell me, if you went your local gaming store, and a player came up and asked if you wanted a game but the game turned out to be Warmachine (or some other miniatures game you don't like) instead of Warhammer 40K (don't worry this player has brought forces for both side) would accept of decline the game even though you came to play 40K and don't like Warmachine. I wouldn't play I as I wanted to play 40K and not Warmachine. The same goes for painted and unpainted. I wasn't there to grow the Warmachine community just like I am not there to grow the community regardless of what I want of out the game.

As a player I have no more responsibility to foster the gaming community that you do to paint you miniatures. You might say it is my own self-interest to foster my community, As Peregrine already stated I see no real loss in players that don't want paint their miniatures to community as large as already mentioned I would decline playing them anyways.

That is not to say I glad they are staying out of the hobby. I am not happy about that, quite the opposite if fact. They shouldn't let my personal preference dissuade them as there are many players that don't seem to care at all what anyone's miniatures look like and they could always game with them. But everyone game is mutual agreement from both parties whose intention should be fun and enjoyment. If one party doesn't like hard-core, WAAC gaming and the other does I see no reason for that game to take place. Both parties want very different things and the game is likely to suffer for it. It is the same for painted and unpainted miniatures.

I get it. Rejection, even the small rejection of declining a game, stings. That doesn't mean I shouldn't turn down games that I don't want to play. I try to be friendly, but firm that my personal preference is games with painted miniatures. So no game until that happens. However, it seems the majority of players don't have that preference so that player should seek them out and I am sure they will be more than happy to get in a game.

I am not out there belong condensing and a jerk about it. If the other person wants to get irate or think I am an elitist snob, I can't do anything more about that. Most players that I have turned down a game seemed to understand it is just my personal preference, but I don't understand the ones that seem to get angry at this preference as I see the same as my preference to which games I enjoy.

 Sentinel1 wrote:
I hate it when people moan about not having painted miniatures! I am a terrible painter, not much skill, very slow at it and most of the time I struggle to get it all done. I see no problem with having unpainted miniatures as long as they are all stuck together properly. I find quickly base coating a whole line of them so they are 'playable' ruins the quality of models with sloppy paint jobs. Funny story to tell...

I got right told off at GW Nottingham because I had some models assembled but not painted. The hierarchy came over and said 'well its because you could have stolen those miniatures and assembled them quickly from a shop, so you can't use them'. Now part of his argument is fair but would anyone really open up the boxes, steal some clipper and glue, fix them up and then start playing in front of everyone? I think not!' I tried to explain the reasons why they weren't painted and they were having none of it. I was told I was 'banned from playing or entering GW' Now I don't know if he meant GW Nottingham or all the stores ???? !!!!!

Whilst I was being chastised for unpainted miniatures, there was a guy playing Necron's with terribly painted black basecoat. His 'best model' was the C'tan Nightbringer which was base coated but not glued together! What did he use you ask? He stuck the arms on with Blu-Tack, yes Blu-Tack! And he was allowed to play!

Since then I quit 40K and as of this year have decided to give it another go on a small scale, in which I paint my models fully to the best of my meagre abilities in one go.

Tangential point, it's that kind of gak from GW staff that really boils my piss. I've ran into similar such incidents with my young self not realising the burden of proof is on the accuser and not you. You should have just asked them to prove you stole them and carried on.

I've got a laundry list of stories regarding GW staff swinging their proverbials around, but that is another topic...

Lance845, you are wrong.

1) I don't have a responsibility to grow the community. I might accept that responsibility if I want to, and then your arguments make some sense, but I don't have to.

2) Maybe I am playing a different game to you then. I have never played in a competetive tournament, and whilst I do my best, I am not designing killer lists to thump people or eking out an extra 1/4" to get the charge or preventing them moving if they accidentally did some shooting on the opposite end of the board already. I am way more interested in telling a good story. The story is told best with painted miniatures on an awesome board. I'll generally play with partially painted miniatures on a scrappy board if I like the person, but if I don't want to, I don't have to. Nobody can make me. Nor does Peregrine.

Frankly though, I think it is quite impressive that you have made Peregrine look reasoned and sensible. Normally, whilst I agree with him, he does come across as abrupt and with no compromise, but you make him look very reasonable! Well done!

@ Fifty & Saturmourn

It's true. You are not REQUIRED to not be a dick head in society. People are welcome to go around being as big or as little of a jerk as they want to. If you wanted to sit on the side of the road and yell obscenities your welcome to do so. That comes with all the consequences that come with your actions.

You can do as little or as much as you want to be a toxic element in your personal or gaming community. And believe me, I am reading what you are writing and I understand that you TRY to be POLITE while fostering an attitude in your local gaming communities that is self destructive. It's great really. You guys should be rewarded for not being the WORST and instead being just kind of bad.

I didn't say you were obligated to play with every person every time. You can choose not to play for any reason including just not feeling like playing a game right now. BUT, IF your reason is simply because that persons army is unpainted than you are part of the problem this thread got started because of. You help cause incidents like the one the OP experienced. You foster incidents like this one in your local communities even if you are not the person with the hostile unwelcoming attitude because you try to be polite about it. By putting that attitude out there and making excuses for why it's ok you encourage others to behave that way.

@ Fifty I have also never played in a competitive tournament. I play nids and own 0 mucolid spores. I think it's a jerk move to bring more than 1 Flyrant for every 1k points in the game so I currently own 2. One for each of the up to 2k points I generally enjoy playing. I only build TAC lists.

I try to compare lists with my opponent because I think the best matches are ones that come down to the wire and are real close. If by the end of turn 2 things are looking pretty hopeless for one side the game tends to become more of an unfun slog for both of us.

Rules:

Pages 8+ read the opening paragraph, Models and base sizes, Forming a unit, and page 14 LoS.

Since 40k is a permission based rule set it sounds like you do not have permission to play with cardboard cut outs and that the models are required to be at least mostly built in order to comply with the rule requirements for the game.

feth store A. Who cares? Arranges games with you people you wanna play at store B.

It was the guys at store A who wanted to play the game in the first place. It was the other player who said okay when it wasn't really okay. The owner sounds like a grognard who can't empathize with non grognards, which is why he torpedo'd your killteam league. I've heard of a buy in for campaigns before. A couple bucks or whatever. Even tournaments have entry fees. But $15 per week? fething lol, feth that guy.

Man, I paint a bunch and IMHO to a high standard, but I'd be pretty pissed off if I got that attitude from a store owner. I buy from local gaming stores because they give space to play. I'm not getting paid for marketing, nor for my time painting my army.

Sure, it would be nice to have an army slowly get painted, but that time barrier is rather severe. Some times I don't have time to devote to painting, or, hell, I'd rather be relaxing or hanging out or playing.

If you're amiable/not disruptive and support the store, I think that's about all that should be required.

 Lance845 wrote:
@ Fifty & Saturmourn

It's true. You are not REQUIRED to not be a dick head in society. People are welcome to go around being as big or as little of a jerk as they want to. If you wanted to sit on the side of the road and yell obscenities your welcome to do so. That comes with all the consequences that come with your actions.

You can do as little or as much as you want to be a toxic element in your personal or gaming community. And believe me, I am reading what you are writing and I understand that you TRY to be POLITE while fostering an attitude in your local gaming communities that is self destructive. It's great really. You guys should be rewarded for not being the WORST and instead being just kind of bad.

And yet you are turning players away too.
Self destructive, if you ask me.

I didn't say you were obligated to play with every person every time. You can choose not to play for any reason including just not feeling like playing a game right now. BUT, IF your reason is simply because that persons army is unpainted than you are part of the problem this thread got started because of. You help cause incidents like the one the OP experienced. You foster incidents like this one in your local communities even if you are not the person with the hostile unwelcoming attitude because you try to be polite about it. By putting that attitude out there and making excuses for why it's ok you encourage others to behave that way.

So you're saying that I can turn people away UNLESS it's for XYZ reason. I wasn't aware that was objective.
Huh. I guess I could say that you are also at fault for turning people away because XYZ.

And no, you justified the owner of Store A yourself. You said: "If you want to invite other players to your home based on the quality of their paint jobs do so. Get enough of them together that you have all the matches you could want with all the prettiest armies." The owner of Store A is effectively doing just that. They are letting OP into their "home", on the condition he plays by A's rules, because he's in A's "home".

You're encouraging the owner of Store A yourself.

Rules:

Pages 8+ read the opening paragraph, Models and base sizes, Forming a unit, and page 14 LoS.

Since 40k is a permission based rule set it sounds like you do not have permission to play with cardboard cut outs and that the models are required to be at least mostly built in order to comply with the rule requirements for the game.

I acknowledge your point on cardboard cut-outs. Fair point, which I concede. But still - are they required to be mostly built?
Interestingly enough, on Page 8 about the "Citadel Miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000": no non-GW models can be used in 40k, I guess, because they're not Citadel Miniatures, and cannot therefore be classed as models for game purposes. The more you know.

Still, you've missed my point, and avoided what I've said: ask GW how they view painting. For reference, allow me to quote what every GW event pack pack asks for: your army to be "fully assembled and painted".
They, the creators, see painting as important. I don't think it's unreasonable for someone to share that view.

Given everything you've said OP, go to store B. It's more what you prefer, and if you disagree with store A's policy, so be it. Let them suffer for it, it's not your fault. If the owner wants to run it that way, let him. Store B will always accept you.

Pretty long thread for what's ultimately fairly simple.

Nobody has any requirement to play.
Nobody has any requirement to play against anybody.
Nobody is better or worse in the hobby whether he paints or not.

And here problem is funnily enough with the store owner rather than players. Store owner seems to be hell bent on making sure his business go out of business!

tneva82 wrote:
Pretty long thread for what's ultimately fairly simple.

Nobody has any requirement to play.
Nobody has any requirement to play against anybody.
Nobody is better or worse in the hobby whether he paints or not.

And here problem is funnily enough with the store owner rather than players. Store owner seems to be hell bent on making sure his business go out of business!

This.

 Lance845 wrote:
@ Fifty & Saturmourn

It's true. You are not REQUIRED to not be a dick head in society. People are welcome to go around being as big or as little of a jerk as they want to. If you wanted to sit on the side of the road and yell obscenities your welcome to do so. That comes with all the consequences that come with your actions.

You can do as little or as much as you want to be a toxic element in your personal or gaming community. And believe me, I am reading what you are writing and I understand that you TRY to be POLITE while fostering an attitude in your local gaming communities that is self destructive. It's great really. You guys should be rewarded for not being the WORST and instead being just kind of bad.

I didn't say you were obligated to play with every person every time. You can choose not to play for any reason including just not feeling like playing a game right now. BUT, IF your reason is simply because that persons army is unpainted than you are part of the problem this thread got started because of. You help cause incidents like the one the OP experienced. You foster incidents like this one in your local communities even if you are not the person with the hostile unwelcoming attitude because you try to be polite about it. By putting that attitude out there and making excuses for why it's ok you encourage others to behave that way.

@ Fifty I have also never played in a competitive tournament. I play nids and own 0 mucolid spores. I think it's a jerk move to bring more than 1 Flyrant for every 1k points in the game so I currently own 2. One for each of the up to 2k points I generally enjoy playing. I only build TAC lists.

I try to compare lists with my opponent because I think the best matches are ones that come down to the wire and are real close. If by the end of turn 2 things are looking pretty hopeless for one side the game tends to become more of an unfun slog for both of us.

Rules:

Pages 8+ read the opening paragraph, Models and base sizes, Forming a unit, and page 14 LoS.

Since 40k is a permission based rule set it sounds like you do not have permission to play with cardboard cut outs and that the models are required to be at least mostly built in order to comply with the rule requirements for the game.

The rules never define what a "Model" nor what a "Citadel miniature" is. Presumably it's a model kit sold by Games Workshop that's fully assembled according to the instructions provided barring individual conversions/kitbashes. But nothing in the rules state as much. A Citadel miniature could just be a bunch of ground up sprues glued onto a base. Heck, it sounds like you can use cardboard cut outs as long as they are sold under the Citadel brand.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And yet you are turning players away too.
Self destructive, if you ask me.


So you're saying that I can turn people away UNLESS it's for XYZ reason. I wasn't aware that was objective.
Huh. I guess I could say that you are also at fault for turning people away because XYZ.

And no, you justified the owner of Store A yourself. You said: "If you want to invite other players to your home based on the quality of their paint jobs do so. Get enough of them together that you have all the matches you could want with all the prettiest armies." The owner of Store A is effectively doing just that. They are letting OP into their "home", on the condition he plays by A's rules, because he's in A's "home".

You're encouraging the owner of Store A yourself.

These are the exact same flawed logical arguments Peregrine tried to use. They are straw men arguments with no merit what so ever. See my comparison for why they are invalid.

It's always funny when people bust out the "you're intolerant for not approving my intolerance!"

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
And yet you are turning players away too.
Self destructive, if you ask me.


So you're saying that I can turn people away UNLESS it's for XYZ reason. I wasn't aware that was objective.
Huh. I guess I could say that you are also at fault for turning people away because XYZ.

And no, you justified the owner of Store A yourself. You said: "If you want to invite other players to your home based on the quality of their paint jobs do so. Get enough of them together that you have all the matches you could want with all the prettiest armies." The owner of Store A is effectively doing just that. They are letting OP into their "home", on the condition he plays by A's rules, because he's in A's "home".

You're encouraging the owner of Store A yourself.

These are the exact same flawed logical arguments Peregrine tried to use. They are straw men arguments with no merit what so ever. See my comparison for why they are invalid.

Which argument? Could you please be specific?

The store owner can do whatever he wants to refuse business. Could hurt his business or rep, though, especially with competition not that far away.

Lance, you are really close to calling me a dill weed and toxic. Please be very careful, because if you go any further, I will report you for it.

Also, whilst you did not call people Nazis, it is very much not the appropriate way of explaining your point, because by the very nature of yoru argument, you equated one half of the logic to Nazis. If you even tangetially imply anyone is a Nazi, I'll also request mods to look at that too, if they are not already.

Peregrine's attitude might indeed make some people not want to play. Your attitude is definitely making me less likely to want to play.

 Fifty wrote:
Lance, you are really close to calling me a dill weed and toxic. Please be very careful, because if you go any further, I will report you for it.

Also, whilst you did not call people Nazis, it is very much not the appropriate way of explaining your point, because by the very nature of yoru argument, you equated one half of the logic to Nazis. If you even tangetially imply anyone is a Nazi, I'll also request mods to look at that too, if they are not already.

Peregrine's attitude might indeed make some people not want to play. Your attitude is definitely making me less likely to want to play.

Threatening to tell mommy because someone called you a name is imbarassing and proves your counter argument is childish along with your personality. If someone calls your analogy a straw man then use more substance in your argument not go Nuh uh I'm telling on you.

 Fifty wrote:
Lance, you are really close to calling me a dill weed and toxic. Please be very careful, because if you go any further, I will report you for it.

Also, whilst you did not call people Nazis, it is very much not the appropriate way of explaining your point, because by the very nature of yoru argument, you equated one half of the logic to Nazis. If you even tangetially imply anyone is a Nazi, I'll also request mods to look at that too, if they are not already.

Peregrine's attitude might indeed make some people not want to play. Your attitude is definitely making me less likely to want to play.

Report whatever you want lol.

I explained how the attitude is toxic. I have explained how people have a right to act any way they like. Wanna be a jerk? Go be a jerk. The consequences of acting like a jerk is people call you a jerk. Don't like being called a jerk? Stop acting like one.

Don't bring false equivalencies into a debate. If your false equivalency is crushed by a comparative argument you don't like, how about, instead of complaining that you didn't like the comparison you find a new argument and continue the discussion in a productive way by making some actual points.

Fact is my stance this entire time has been about taking personal responsibility for your actions and how they help foster your gaming community whether you want to be fostering your community or not. If you bring crap attitudes to your community you ARE toxic. Justifying the crap attitude because you "try to be as polite as possible" doesn't make it any less a part of the problem.

I am sorry you do not like being told that the ideas you are holding on to are bad ones. I am sorry that the 3 people in this thread who have tried to defend those ideas have fallen back onto the exact same failed logical argument to defend it. If you have any actual points to make that counter this core argument,

"Fact is my stance this entire time has been about taking personal responsibility for your actions and how they help foster your gaming community whether you want to be fostering your community or not."

in defiance of this attitude,

 Peregrine wrote:

"paint your models or you aren't welcome here".

I am happy to discuss them with everyone and anyone. Instead of getting offended because your loosing you could participate or learn something. If your attitude is the same as Peregrines then I am happy to loose you. The community would do better without it. But if instead you understood the ways in which your attitude could impact your community and you became better, well that is a net gain and we will have all won.

 slip wrote:
feth store A. Who cares? Arranges games with you people you wanna play at store B.

It was the guys at store A who wanted to play the game in the first place. It was the other player who said okay when it wasn't really okay. The owner sounds like a grognard who can't empathize with non grognards, which is why he torpedo'd your killteam league. I've heard of a buy in for campaigns before. A couple bucks or whatever. Even tournaments have entry fees. But $15 per week? fething lol, feth that guy.

If you can't sp be $15 a week, why are you even in this expensive hobby? The store owner probably don't want people playing with 'toy' soldiers at his store, but rather gaming with models; the standard he wants to uphold is his business, if you can't and unwilling to meet it then go to store B. From what the OP has stated, he's simply giving excuses not to work on the painting side of the hobby, which is fine, but then complains why store A should lower their standards. I think if the OP genuinely put in some effort in painting his models squad at a time while playing, the owner would have no objection.

 Big Mac wrote:
I think if the OP genuinely put in some effort in painting his models squad at a time while playing, the owner would have no objection.

So somehow OP is carrying sign that "I won't paint these IG troopers" despite some BEING painted so that owner of store can tell immediately on the very first time he brought them to the store that he won't paint them...

...Yeah right.

Store owner didn't give OP chance to paint them squad at a time. Sorry your thought was busted.

 Lance845 wrote:

I didn't say you were obligated to play with every person every time. You can choose not to play for any reason including just not feeling like playing a game right now. BUT, IF your reason is simply because that persons army is unpainted than you are part of the problem this thread got started because of. You help cause incidents like the one the OP experienced. You foster incidents like this one in your local communities even if you are not the person with the hostile unwelcoming attitude because you try to be polite about it. By putting that attitude out there and making excuses for why it's ok you encourage others to behave that way.

Conversely, you contribute to the toxicity of the community by stating the players that only want to play opponents with painted models are the WORST. You do know there are robust wargaming communities out there that playing with painted models is so ingrained that they wouldn't even think playing with unpainted models is a thing. They don't look down upon it, just the idea would never occur to them.

It could be argued that the reason this thread exists is that players feel entitled to play games with any opponent regardless of the opponent's preferences in a game. If players had the expectation of painted models with players asking for their opponent's permission to use unpainted (similar to proxy or count as) models the OP wouldn't experienced what they did. I don't know if I would make that argument, but it is all about perspective.

I don't condone rude behavior. I don't think my attitude concerning unpainted models has any connection to how others behave. I am sorry if some Napoleonics playing old grognard told you off a long time ago for having unpainted stuff. It wasn't called for back then, and it is call for now. But you should at least acknowledge that players have different things they want out of their gaming with different levels of willingness to game. I would take it as a kindness if a group of gamers told me they were powergamers and played very competitively before hand as I don't want that out of my gaming and it would save me a lot time and frustration with that information upfront. The same can be said about unpainted to painted. Neither is right, neither is wrong but some players, like myself, don't enjoy the game with unpainted miniatures to the point its probably best not to game.

OgreChubbs wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
Lance, you are really close to calling me a dill weed and toxic. Please be very careful, because if you go any further, I will report you for it.

Also, whilst you did not call people Nazis, it is very much not the appropriate way of explaining your point, because by the very nature of yoru argument, you equated one half of the logic to Nazis. If you even tangetially imply anyone is a Nazi, I'll also request mods to look at that too, if they are not already.

Peregrine's attitude might indeed make some people not want to play. Your attitude is definitely making me less likely to want to play.

Threatening to tell mommy because someone called you a name is imbarassing and proves your counter argument is childish along with your personality. If someone calls your analogy a straw man then use more substance in your argument not go Nuh uh I'm telling on you.

Lance845 didn't call Fifty's analogy a strawman. That was mine.
Know who you're insulting before you insult them.

Lance845 wrote:

 Fifty wrote:
Lance, you are really close to calling me a dill weed and toxic. Please be very careful, because if you go any further, I will report you for it.

Also, whilst you did not call people Nazis, it is very much not the appropriate way of explaining your point, because by the very nature of yoru argument, you equated one half of the logic to Nazis. If you even tangetially imply anyone is a Nazi, I'll also request mods to look at that too, if they are not already.

Peregrine's attitude might indeed make some people not want to play. Your attitude is definitely making me less likely to want to play.

Report whatever you want lol.

I explained how the attitude is toxic. I have explained how people have a right to act any way they like. Wanna be a jerk? Go be a jerk. The consequences of acting like a jerk is people call you a jerk. Don't like being called a jerk? Stop acting like one.

It may appear that someone isn't listening to your advice.

Don't bring false equivalencies into a debate. If your false equivalency is crushed by a comparative argument you don't like, how about, instead of complaining that you didn't like the comparison you find a new argument and continue the discussion in a productive way by making some actual points.

The thing is that your own points are combating yourself.
You're saying it's wrong to refuse a game on Reason XYZ, yet, you're more than happy to segregate people based on XYZ reasons.

Fact is my stance this entire time has been about taking personal responsibility for your actions and how they help foster your gaming community whether you want to be fostering your community or not. If you bring crap attitudes to your community you ARE toxic. Justifying the crap attitude because you "try to be as polite as possible" doesn't make it any less a part of the problem.

Hmm. Maybe someone needs to listen to that advice.

I am sorry you do not like being told that the ideas you are holding on to are bad ones. I am sorry that the 3 people in this thread who have tried to defend those ideas have fallen back onto the exact same failed logical argument to defend it.

I have said myself:
"I do not share Peregrine's view on refusing unpainted models. I'll happily play against an unpainted army. But if Peregrine doesn't want to, that's up to them, and I respect their view, same as I respect your view of refusing games because you dislike their attitude."

I believe that Peregrine has as much right to refuse a game as you do to refuse to play him. Regardless of reasoning.
If you're allowed to deny a game, so is he.

And please, show us the error of our argument. That hasn't been disproved already.

If you have any actual points to make that counter this core argument,

"Fact is my stance this entire time has been about taking personal responsibility for your actions and how they help foster your gaming community whether you want to be fostering your community or not."

in defiance of this attitude,

 Peregrine wrote:

"paint your models or you aren't welcome here".

And I quote yourself, talking about people who segregate others (which YOU ARE ADVOCATING FOR PEREGRINE): "It's better if you don't show up at all."

You outright say that you want to segregate Peregrine, and then say you oppose people who segregate others.

You are doing exactly what Peregrine is.

I am happy to discuss them with everyone and anyone. Instead of getting offended because your loosing you could participate or learn something.

I'm not contradicting myself. If contradicting myself means winning an argument, then I guess I've lost.
People are getting offended because someone seems very close to breaking Rule 1.

If your attitude is the same as Peregrines then I am happy to loose you.

Again, that segregation talk coming back in - IOW, if you're not with me, you're against me etc etc.

And I've told you my view on Peregrine's opinion. I don't support it myself, but I support his freedom to it. I do not have the same attitude, and I would appreciate if you didn't attempt to lump anyone who disagrees with you into the same net.

The community would do better without it.

What's that I hear? The sound of...
Segregation?

But if instead you understood the ways in which your attitude could impact your community and you became better, well that is a net gain and we will have all won.

Maybe it's not just Peregrine's attitude that's the issue here.

Your issue with Peregrine is that he wants to segregate a group of people. Your solution? Segregate Peregrine.
I think that speaks for itself.

Well... Yikes.

I think a lot of people here need to take a breath of fresh air. You'd save the Mods doing it for you if this goes the way it is going.

I see the problem clearly from both sides, as someone who paints very slow, but who also dislikes unpainted/partially painted armies. However, it's important to recognise effort here; if someone is actively trying to paint up their army, but just can't muster enough units for most games in the store, people should respect that and not take them to task for bringing a partially painted army.

Playing against painted armies is much more fun than painting against an unpainted one, and having a fully painted army should be pursued by everyone, either by hand or by commission (because let's be honest, if you don't have the time to paint yourself, chances are you have the money to get someone else to make something that will please your eyes every time you unpack it at the club)

Is a rule saying that you should only play with a painted army a good idea? I think it's really contextual based on who visits the store, although I'll frankly say, even as someone who would really prefer if you bring a painted army (and that I only play if I have everything painted too), that not playing them based on that sole fact is a little too immature for my liking, certainly not something I'd expect a fully grown adult to come out with if I told them I might have to bring my new Valkyrie to our next game unpainted.

Fight the right battles when it comes to this hobby people.

G.A

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

I didn't say you were obligated to play with every person every time. You can choose not to play for any reason including just not feeling like playing a game right now. BUT, IF your reason is simply because that persons army is unpainted than you are part of the problem this thread got started because of. You help cause incidents like the one the OP experienced. You foster incidents like this one in your local communities even if you are not the person with the hostile unwelcoming attitude because you try to be polite about it. By putting that attitude out there and making excuses for why it's ok you encourage others to behave that way.

Conversely, you contribute to the toxicity of the community by stating the players that only want to play opponents with painted models are the WORST. You do know there are robust wargaming communities out there that playing with painted models is so ingrained that they wouldn't even think playing with unpainted models is a thing. They don't look down upon it, just the idea would never occur to them.

I am aware. They are primarily made up of people who have been playing for a long time and have the least amount of growth because of course they do. It takes so much MORE to get involved in that community that so more less are willing to do all the extra work just to get their foot in the door. I also never said they were "the WORST" I said they were bad. And that the bad attitude spreads and causes a growth of the attitude present in store A.

It could be argued that the reason this thread exists is that players feel entitled to play games with any opponent regardless of the opponent's preferences in a game. If players had the expectation of painted models with players asking for their opponent's permission to use unpainted (similar to proxy or count as) models the OP wouldn't experienced what they did. I don't know if I would make that argument, but it is all about perspective.

I don't think it's fair to say people feel entitled to a game. The OP didn't come here and start this thread saying he demanded that he get games where ever he goes. He came in saying the crap he got because of a lack of paint for very reasonable reasons (and even ... I don't like/want to paint is a very reasonable reason) created an uncomfortable and unwelcoming situation inside of a place where the community is supposed to be all welcoming and supporting the growth of the community.

The more barriers to entry to you create the less the community grows. It's a simple math equation. I know I would not make that argument. It's a bad argument. And that perspective is toxic to the community.

I don't condone rude behavior. I don't think my attitude concerning unpainted models has any connection to how other behave. I am sorry if some Napoleonics playing old grognard told you off a long time ago for having unpainted stuff. It wasn't called for back then, and it is call for now. But you should at least acknowledge that players have different things they want out of their gaming with different levels of willingness to game. I would take it as a kindness if a group of gamers told me they were powergamers and played very competitively before hand as I don't want that out of my gaming and it would save me a lot time and frustration with that information upfront. The same can be said about unpainted to painted. Neither is right, neither is wrong but some players, like myself, don't enjoy the game with unpainted miniatures to the point its probably best not to game.

Another assumption about me and my past experiences. I started painting fro the get go. I got my army built. I played 1 game to see how it worked. And then I got to work painting. My first model was a full magnetized Hive Tyrant with all options painted. The heads were magnetized to swap between Swarmlord and HT. I even disliked the SL head and used greenstuff to customize it. I built, magnetized, and base coated that model before I bought my second model. Nothing happened to me that "scared me against the bullys". I simply understand how communities work, and this thread not being the only thread on here in which someone had the same or similar experiences shows that there is a pattern with that perspective. Do the math.

I agree that it's nice for people to talk about what they expect out of a game! The powergamers in your example would do wonders explaining that. There is a appropriate time and place for all things. Pick up games at the LGS are not the place to make the game unwelcoming and you should expect nothing but the bare minimum from games in that setting. Good sportsmanship, follow the rules.

When TFG brings his cut throat hyper competitive tourney list to bear against the guy who is just looking for a pick up game in his LGS without talking about the power level of the game first is also being toxic and dragging down the community. JUST LIKE the guy who refuses to play against unpainted. Again, if you want to play a bunch vs all painted armies buy a table and terrain, set it up in your house, and invite all the prettiest armies you can find. Don't degrade the place where the community grows by bringing the bad attitude into the store.

Where did we get this idea that elitism is bad? I have elitist standards about many things. I expect your models to be painted. I expect you to have bathed recently and wear clean clothes. I expect you to be capable of good sportsmanship and not be a poor loser or rules-lawyering TFG. I expect you to buy legitimate models and not support illegal recasters, especially if you're playing in a store that sells those models. If you can't do those things then no, I don't want you in the community. Part of having a healthy community is having standards beyond "have the greatest possible number of members".

 Peregrine wrote:
Where did we get this idea that elitism is bad?

It can be if you end up pushing out people who just want to enjoy something with you.

Perhaps a lazy "hobbyist" who just rolls up with seas of grey plastic with no intention of ever painting it/getting it painted should be warned that they will not find a pickup game very often, but should we also prosecute a person who does try their hardest to paint, but would never be seen from again if they said they won't turn up till they have everything for their list painted up?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your issue with Peregrine is that he wants to segregate a group of people. Your solution? Segregate Peregrine.
I think that speaks for itself.

 slip wrote:
It's always funny when people bust out the "you're intolerant for not approving my intolerance!"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Where did we get this idea that elitism is bad? I have elitist standards about many things. I expect your models to be painted. I expect you to have bathed recently and wear clean clothes. I expect you to be capable of good sportsmanship and not be a poor loser or rules-lawyering TFG. I expect you to buy legitimate models and not support illegal recasters, especially if you're playing in a store that sells those models. If you can't do those things then no, I don't want you in the community. Part of having a healthy community is having standards beyond "have the greatest possible number of members".

Everything you have listed there that is not about paint is not elitist. That is just common courtesy. It's the base line. The basics. You're not elitist for not wanting to be around someone who doesn't bathe. You are not elitist for expect that people support the store that provides a space for them to play in.

It is elitist to expect people to go beyond one facet of the hobby and do other parts of the hobby just to play the game. A guy in my LGS has shaky hands and no artistic ability. He doesn't want to paint. He has no interest in it. He likes playing the game. He also has brought 3 other people into the store since last November 2 of which have signed up for my P&M workshop next month.

Your stance would have pushed him out the door. Those 3 other players would have never gotten started when he quit playing because the community shunned him. Those 2 people would not be signed up to learn about the other facets of the hobby because they would have never gotten started with any part of the hobby.

Can you start to see the toxicity?

Gonna throw it out there: I reckon melts getting furious and bickering on the Internet is way more detrimental to the hobby than people saying they'd prefer to only play games with painted models.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your issue with Peregrine is that he wants to segregate a group of people. Your solution? Segregate Peregrine.
I think that speaks for itself.

 slip wrote:
It's always funny when people bust out the "you're intolerant for not approving my intolerance!"

Isn't that sentence self-fulfilling?

Person A: I'm intolerant.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance.
Person A: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance of your intolerance.
etc etc

At the end of the day, Person A and B are both intolerant. Neither is in the right.

And neither is your solution. You are doing exactly what you accuse Peregrine of. By your own logic, you deserve to be segregated.
Do you support that?

EDIT: All this talk of elitism: Are you not also elitist for expecting someone give up their own personal time and energy to obey something not supported by the rules of the game? That rule being both players consenting to a game?

This thread should have been a poll, you are worse than Horus for that alone.

 General Annoyance wrote:
It can be if you end up pushing out people who just want to enjoy something with you.

But why is this a problem, if I don't want to enjoy something with them? If a person brings unpainted models, refuses to bathe, etc, I'm not going to enjoy playing with them. And I don't have an obligation to entertain them at my own expense. If refusing to play with them pushes them out then nothing of value to me is lost.

but should we also prosecute a person who does try their hardest to paint, but would never be seen from again if they said they won't turn up till they have everything for their list painted up?

If someone is making a good-faith effort to get everything painted then my standards can be a bit flexible, though I'd rather play a smaller game with fully painted armies using the stuff they do have painted. But in my experience most of the people with unpainted models aren't making that effort. They don't want to paint, proudly tell everyone that they don't want to paint and painting shouldn't be a requirement, and will only ever paint anything if they have no other choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lance845 wrote:
Everything you have listed there that is not about paint is not elitist. That is just common courtesy.

IOW: "The things I expect people to do are just common courtesy. The things Peregrine expects people to do, which I don't care about, are elitism."

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your issue with Peregrine is that he wants to segregate a group of people. Your solution? Segregate Peregrine.
I think that speaks for itself.

 slip wrote:
It's always funny when people bust out the "you're intolerant for not approving my intolerance!"

Isn't that sentence self-fulfilling?

Person A: I'm intolerant.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance.
Person A: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance of your intolerance.
etc etc

At the end of the day, Person A and B are both intolerant. Neither is in the right.

And neither is your solution. You are doing exactly what you accuse Peregrine of. By your own logic, you deserve to be segregated.
Do you support that?

I am sorry the logic of the argument is beyond your grasp. If you cannot understand it from how it has been explained thus far there is nothing I can do to teach it to you. I refuse to debate your strawman and poor logic any further because it's just going to be a repeat of page 2 of this thread. If you have any OTHER point to make I am happy to discuss it.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your issue with Peregrine is that he wants to segregate a group of people. Your solution? Segregate Peregrine.
I think that speaks for itself.

 slip wrote:
It's always funny when people bust out the "you're intolerant for not approving my intolerance!"

Isn't that sentence self-fulfilling?

Person A: I'm intolerant.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance.
Person A: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance of your intolerance.
etc etc

At the end of the day, Person A and B are both intolerant. Neither is in the right.

And neither is your solution. You are doing exactly what you accuse Peregrine of. By your own logic, you deserve to be segregated.
Do you support that?

I am sorry the logic of the argument is beyond your grasp. If you cannot understand it from how it has been explained thus far there is nothing I can do to teach it to you. I refuse to debate your strawman and poor logic any further because it's just going to be a repeat of page 2 of this thread. If you have any OTHER point to make I am happy to discuss it.

How is my argument a strawman? Please explain. As is "common courtesy", as you put it.

If you're just going to use strawman as a buzzword as to why you don't want to argue and address my points any more, that's fine. You're welcome to do so. But you have no disproved in any way how you and Peregrine are not the same.

EDIT: And yes. There are many points I have addressed on page 3 which you have not responded directly to. I would be happy if you could address them, preferably without using buzzwords.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Your issue with Peregrine is that he wants to segregate a group of people. Your solution? Segregate Peregrine.
I think that speaks for itself.

 slip wrote:
It's always funny when people bust out the "you're intolerant for not approving my intolerance!"

Isn't that sentence self-fulfilling?

Person A: I'm intolerant.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance.
Person A: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance.
Person B: I'm intolerant of your intolerance of my intolerance of your intolerance.
etc etc

At the end of the day, Person A and B are both intolerant. Neither is in the right.

And neither is your solution. You are doing exactly what you accuse Peregrine of. By your own logic, you deserve to be segregated.
Do you support that?

I am sorry the logic of the argument is beyond your grasp. If you cannot understand it from how it has been explained thus far there is nothing I can do to teach it to you. I refuse to debate your strawman and poor logic any further because it's just going to be a repeat of page 2 of this thread. If you have any OTHER point to make I am happy to discuss it.

How is my argument a strawman? Please explain. As is "common courtesy", as you put it.

If you're just going to use strawman as a buzzword as to why you don't want to argue and address my points any more, that's fine. You're welcome to do so. But you have no disproved in any way how you and Peregrine are not the same.

EDIT: And yes. There are many points I have addressed on page 3 which you have not responded directly to. I would be happy if you could address them, preferably without using buzzwords.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informal_fallacy

Your argument that being intolerant of intolerance is, itself, intolerant is a informal fallacy in the form of a strawman argument.

I state. Intolerance is bad. It degrades the community. Or, A is bad. It hurts C.

I state. We are better off without people who are intolerant. Or Since A hurts C, C is better off without A

You state. Well if C doesn't have A then isn't C = A?

The answer is no. C not having A around does not make C A. It's a strawman following this example

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

Person 1 asserts proposition X.
Person 2 argues against a superficially similar proposition Y, falsely, as if an argument against Y were an argument against X.

This reasoning is a fallacy of relevance: it fails to address the proposition in question by misrepresenting the opposing position.

For further reading.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Enjoy.

Temp lock until I can deal with all the alerts caused by this thread...