He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

If that's how he views it that's how he views it, we're not going to have a random argument that is going to magically change his mind. If you are trying to approach it from the "but look how cool they are while maintaining WYSIWYG", then google images for whatever model you're trying to convince him of.

With that said, without you understanding where he's coming from, and WHY he thinks what he thinks, you're not going to convince him. Show him all the pretty pictures in the world, but if he views it as proxying because they are not the model exactly as supplied, then you're never going to get anywhere.

Also, you need to ask yourself why it even matters to you that he views it like that. Differences of opinion are perfectly okay in this world, especially when multiple viewpoints are valid.

I suppose another question to ask is this;

Are they wrong?

I suppose from a purist point of view there are the official GW models as they are made, and everything else is a proxy.

Not sure why that really matters, though.

Tyranid Shrieks cannot be fielded without conversions. The wings don't exist anymore.

Neither do Skyslasher swarms.


Further, how is doing all the extra work of making a conversion lazy?

Could be a front for envying the skill and imagination to do it himself. He might be playing devil's advocate if he knows it winds you up. Whatever the reason, doesn't have to matter to you.

Roller Girl Tasha Skar wrote:

I suppose from a purist point of view there are the official GW models as they are made, and everything else is a proxy.

Sure, but that would be from the point of view of an insane corporate worshipper and should rightfully be rejected.

I would say it depends entirely on the parts you use to make those conversions. If the model is WYSIWYG, conforms to the rules and the majority of the components are of GW origin, then I would be unable to comprehend why anyone would compare it to a proxy.

I find it hilarious that he thinks a beautiful exorcist conversion which combines parts from several IoM units is equal to putting an empty soda can down and saying that's an exorcist cause I marked it with an E with a permanent marker.

Also, I take it he doesn't play Orks, whom are literally designed in the lore to allow for conversions?

I don't know if there is a good counterargument to a point of view that utterly strange.

Personally i love conversions and would also be totally down with playing agains orks that were just ork smiley faces drawn on round pieces of carboard, though

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying.

So?
And therefore... what?
He looks down his nose and makes snide comments?
He won't let you on anyone else he plays field them?
He smashes every conversion model that crosses his path, lights them on fire, buries them, then salts the earth to prevent other conversions from growing there?

The Grenade argument usually shuts them down.

Buy a white dwarf and show him the blanchu part or just any old army book / codex. Converting is an essential part of this hobby and it is endorsed by gw.

However some are better than others

This is a pack of Fenrisian Wolves


This is a unit of Fenrisian Wolves with all the customising the kit allows


If your friend doesn't see the problem here it isn't worth arguing with him.

Orks. Orks are your counter argument. I've seen some ork.conversions that look miles better then any official model from GW.

Simply explain the existence of rough riders. Then watch as he fails to find a counter argument.

He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Why do you care what he thinks? If you need to find internet-spouted wisdom to justify your thoughts, the argument is already lost.

For what it's worth I think he has it backwards, though I agree with him to a point. A lot of people pass off terrible piss-poor proxies as "oh it's converted" because they slapped space marine shoulder pads on a muscle-man figure. Meh.

GW games appeal to a young audience in general, and as such you have a lot of 12-15 year olds cutting their teeth on modeling and painting. The end result is often terrible or borne out of lack of funds, etc. That tends to skew the scales to the side of "poorly done". That's just the nature of appealing to such a young crowd. Most of those kids will eventually get better and better.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Does he refuse to play against you when you use them?

If so, only play him when you don't want to use them.

If not, only play him if you don't mind him expressing the occasional opinion you disagree with.

If his opinions bother you to the point you don't enjoy playing with him, then stop playing with him.

Welcome to a common new age problem. Lots of newer and (usually, but not all the time) younger people keep seeing all the "off the shelf" kits GW puts out and thinks that must be the one and only true way, while a lot of us "old guys" remember the days when HUGE amounts of codex options had to be converted to exist. For instance, it took from 2nd edition until about 4th edition for Chaos Marines to even have an official model at all for a marine with an Autocannon despite it being a common option, and it was a single metal sculpt in the Havoks box. For years and years (and years), both sides of Marines lacked several Dreadnought weapons. Forgeworld actually gave things like Dreadnought Autocannons and Plasma Cannons to us first, years after they appeared in a codex!

Some Tyranid options? Hilarity.

Conversions are the spice of this hobby. You might as well restrict models to certain 'official' paintjobs, too. He needs to understand there's miles between a conversion and a proxy. They are not synonymous at all.

There's a person at our local store that is exactly like this. Any converting or proxying (because the model is OOP) is considered a proxy by him. He refuses to play against people that "proxy" models because it's not clear to him what models are what. This is the case for literally any unit or any amount of units. Even if the model is just a gun difference, he'll still whine about it.

It becomes a massive issue if he participates in tournaments. In just this last one the store had, he was matched up as my ALLY in a 2v2 and he constantly complained about my units not being correct. It cost us all but one game because I couldn't carry his terrible purist units hard enough.

Deodorant Tank from White Dwarf 95 says your friend's argument is invalid. With instructions on how to build it, no less.

If your friend doesn't like your conversions, tell him that he is more than welcome to buy you the "official" models and shut up about it.

He'd better be leaving all his stuff unpainted, still on the sprues, inside the box with the plastic wrap intact. Removing the plastic wrap or, Emprah forbid, cutting the plastic with a knife to get the pieces off the sprues would be converting them from the form they arrived in from the factory, and converting is just as bad as proxying.

And what about units that don't have models yet?
Granted, that's all been with Forgeworld stuff, but what do with the Macrocarid Explorator before the model for that came out?
You had to mosey on up with a Landraider of sorts, with a few Myrmidon gubbins if you wanted to WYSIWYG, unless you're just using the triple-lascannon loadout.

See, this is the kind of thinking that gets us Deathwatch Librarians that aren't allowed to ride Bikes.

Your friend is an idiot

I don't think you're friend is familiar with the hobby aspect of the game and focuses entirely too much on dice rolling.

I don't know, maybe point him to a definition of conversions. like here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniature_conversion#Types_of_conversion

Weathering is a type of conversion for example. Am I proxying an older model when I do it? What about when I file off the flash? Am I proxying a cast model for one that was scuplted?

I don't know, ask your friend where his real space marine army is. Tell him you don't like proxies.

Yech. This sounds like the kind of -OMITTED- thinking that got us the ridiculous Deathwatch options and removal of everything without a Games™ Workshop™ Model™.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

In his defense many conversions out there are lazy and done just to be cheap. You just don't see them on Dakkadakka.

My in-progress rough riders would like to say otherwise.

 Verviedi wrote:
Yech. This sounds like the kind of -OMITTED- thinking that got us the ridiculous Deathwatch options and removal of everything without a Games™ Workshop™ Model™.

Yeah...not really.

Regarding the OP's friend...

Maybe take the time to explain that conversions can be proxies, but that isn't necessarily the case?

Example:
Billy converts a squad of Imperial Guardsmen to be holding Autoguns, which just use the normal Lasgun and Imperial Guard Infantry Squad rules.
Dave converts a squad of Imperial Guardsmen wearing Fire Warrior armor with Pulse Rifles/Carbines/Blasters and runs them as Fire Warriors of the respective teams.
George converts an Imperial Guard Officer wearing a Fire Warrior chestplate, with a CCW and Laspistol to represent the Carapace Armor upgrade that the IGO can take.


Billy's conversion "proxies" the Autoguns as Lasguns.
Dave's conversion "proxies" the Guardsmen wearing Fire Warrior armor as Fire Warriors.
George's conversion is just that, a conversion.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

In his defense many conversions out there are lazy and done just to be cheap. You just don't see them on Dakkadakka.

Like what?
Besides you're not going to get better without practice and sometimes you need the model ASAP so you can play with mildly proper representation.

@OP: just tell your friend he's being a stuck up gakbird. Conversions are part of the game. And GW prints rules for things that they don't even sell bits for, so I'm not even sure where he gets off.

Using DV models as Plague Marines or MoN Marines is just fine. Your friend is the one with the problem. Conversions should be encouraged.

I was going to give a counterargument.... but you know what? I think he has a fair perspective. Though I disagree with it.

Don't get disheartened though, endeavour to do the best you can; try create those few conversions that aren't just lazy, badly done proxies. Make something to be proud of.

Here are my attempts to create renegade blood angels (so still chaos, but not so much from the Nurgle) using 'rescued' DV set.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-74952-44362_Dark%20Vengeance%20Chaos%20Blood%20Angel%20Conversions.html

If I am going to be honest I'm not that proud of all of these models. You can tell; some never were really properly finished.

While you might want not to be lazy, I think the other side of the coin I've learnt with conversions is not to overdo it either.

Another thing, is a good paint job will go a long way. You can create (and alter) a lot of detail with paint.

My final point is to think of the story behind the models you are creating. Why are there a bunch of Nurgle marines in mark 7 armor? Were they wearing it when they turned traitor? Did they loot it as replacement parts after defeating some 40k loyalists? Are they newly created recruits for traitor Legions using parts taken during the Fall of Cadia?

 mmzero252 wrote:
There's a person at our local store that is exactly like this. Any converting or proxying (because the model is OOP) is considered a proxy by him. He refuses to play against people that "proxy" models because it's not clear to him what models are what. This is the case for literally any unit or any amount of units. Even if the model is just a gun difference, he'll still whine about it.

It becomes a massive issue if he participates in tournaments. In just this last one the store had, he was matched up as my ALLY in a 2v2 and he constantly complained about my units not being correct. It cost us all but one game because I couldn't carry his terrible purist units hard enough.

Ugh that sounds awful.

I mean if people are proxying coke cans for drop pods yeah, I understand that's annoying. But if you're making legit proxies based on what looks cool, and putting in effort, that should be encouraged. But there should still be consistency within your army.

As an afterthought, I think is unfair to dismiss conversions because most of them are lazy, bad proxies; if this is the quality you perceive most conversions as, you probably perceive most models to be lazy and badly assembled regardless of if they are a conversion or not.

OP, can you post some of your coversions here?

OP you need to just find new people to play with.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
See, this is the kind of thinking that gets us Deathwatch Librarians that aren't allowed to ride Bikes.

Whut they do not have a bike option :\

Cheap? Lazy? I'll bet his broke arse couldn't afford any of my work ¬_¬

It sounds like he also would not want your work. Regardless, nothing has been said to indicate the friend is broke.

 troa wrote:
It sounds like he also would not want your work. Regardless, nothing has been said to indicate the friend is broke.

Just a joke My point was more that some people will pay much, much more for a professionally finished and/or modified piece than they would for one that was simply assembled and painted.

 oldzoggy wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
See, this is the kind of thinking that gets us Deathwatch Librarians that aren't allowed to ride Bikes.

Whut they do not have a bike option :\

That's the whole point. GW has been turning their model design & rules design to the point where they have written new codices with rules for just the models they have in their current range. Speaking of which, look at the Deathwatch Watch Master. The model has almost no options (none in the clam pack anyways, IIRC) and as such the rules in the book have almost no options. In order to field one, you almost certainly have to have one, instead of just building your own terrific model with all manner of magnetized parts to be able to swap between gear configurations. If the rules would have allowed, for example, the Deathwatch Watch Master to have a power sword and a storm shield, people would be simply using left over bits and a regular (Death Watch) marine body, instead of buying a specific Deathwatch Watch Master mono-pose character.
Many people have a Librarian Biker in their collection. You would not find one in the GW stores or their webshop. Lazy or not, fugly or masterfully done, all such Librarian Bikers would either be Rogue Trader era out of print metalics, or conversions. And if this trend in GW rules design continues, I do believe one day we will either see a specific "Space Marine Librarian With Space Marine Bike" model, or there would be a new Codex Space Marines in which a Space Marine Librarian would not have the option to take a bike.

Which brings us to proxies and conversions...

I always thought a proxy to be a stand-in model for one of two reasons. Either there wasn't a model available at all (whether by not having existed ever, or being OOP), so you would have to use something else to represent it on the tabletop. Or you could proxy a model because you just didn't have the model it should represent just yet. More often than not, this proxy would allow you try out a model before committing funds, time, energy, only to find the rules or actual model lacking. In my experience, people who allow their opponents to use proxies are often just as curious as to what a specific rule can do. They don't care about model accuracy and WYSIWYG in this specific instance.
The other side of the spectrum to me is a conversion, where there is an existing model, and you just alter it. The simplest of these would be to swap the head, or a weapon. The more elaborate ones change the pose and dynamics of a model. From a standing Space Marine Captain with a power sword to a running Space Marine Captain with a power sword, for example.

And to the OP...

That last example I gave. If I recall correctly, there are no (current) models available for a running power-armoured Space Marine Captain with power sword. So when I make a conversion of it, it is also a sort of a proxy. The same goes for a Chaos Terminator with a Plasmagun-Combi-Weapon. I couldn't find any, but I could make a conversion (which could then be called a proxy as there is no in print model or part for a Chaos Terminator Plasmagun-Combi-Weapon). From a certain point of view, your friend could be right about conversions actually being proxies. I cannot subscribe to the notion that all of them are 'lazy' (though I have seen Chaos Terminators with a regular combi-bolter with a plasmagun bit superglued on top of it, which looked sort of silly to my opinion). Like I said above, some options in current codices are not available as a model without converting/proxying.

I don't want to offend your friend at face value here (always two sides to a story and some such), but I, too, cannot fathom his problems with converting/proxying, and his responses seem, for a lack of better words, "uninformed". Some armies, most notably Orks and Chaos, practically beg for conversions, kitbashes, and for what it's worth, some proxies.

Does your friend also play warmachine?

I mean a significant portion of this is collecting.

I personally really like the aesthetic of Deathwing Knights, with the robes and shields, and that will be the base for my terminators / Grey Knights (although, I will paint my Grey Knights gold, call them Gold Knights, and the primary difference is that instead of leaving no witnesses they broadcast their victories on 40k social media, like Metal-Objects-In-Your-Face-Book).

I guess technically that's converting. If someone started actually getting in my face and telling me I was ruining the game, I honestly wouldn't know what to say. That is incredibly rude, for one, and two, it's just an opinion, being conveyed in the most aggressive way possible. I could easily see my response being, "Well that's just like, your opinion man. But don't worry, we won't ever be playing together."

 n0t_u wrote:
Does your friend also play warmachine?

You've got the wrong end of the stick there. WMH's conversion rules are rather relaxed and have been for some time. The only thing you cannot change is the weapon type (and even then, these rules only apply for Steamroller events). As long as your opponent can tell what it is, then there is no problem. I've got loads of converted Jacks (mainly for my Mercenaries). All are easily identifiable and nobody has ever complained. Even our stickler TFG whom at our last tournament insisted one of our players swap out his Eyriss3 (whom he was using as Eyriss2 as he liked the model more, yes he was technically correct, but he wasn't running the tournament nor was he playing him. I had no issue as Eyriss3 is a CA and Eyriss2 is a solo and he had no units Eyriss3 could possibly be attached to in his forces.) said nothing about my converted Doom Reaver Ogrun Bokurs, neither of which are made from PP models or the DR unit leader made from the free Khorne guy from WD.

I LOVE converting models. It's one of my favorite parts of the hobby, making a unit completely unique. Granted I take a lot of time on mine and make sure they're WYSIWYG. If I pour hours of my time and energy into a model to make something cool and unique (especially if it's painted and WYSIWYG) I cant imagine anyone not wanting to play it?

So long as the compliments outweigh the negativity I'd say you're heading in the right direction.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Largely depends on how well you implement it, but yeah, that does walk the line. I'd be on his side if the end result was still very clearly a dark angel that didn't look nurgly at all.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Largely depends on how well you implement it, but yeah, that does walk the line. I'd be on his side if the end result was still very clearly a dark angel that didn't look nurgly at all.

I thought the Dark Vengance set had a group of chaos marines in it, just not marked ones- am I thinking of the wrong set?

I remember back when I got started in the game, (as an Ork player,) a friend refused to let me use some converted Kommandos that I'd made by brutalizing some Ork Boyz. It wasn't exactly a great looking conversion, but they also weren't finished yet, and I'd been playing for about two months at the time.
This was especially frustrating because they hadn't seen the models until after the game started, when I brought them in from reserve, and were refusing to let me play with them mid-game.

 B Stores wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Largely depends on how well you implement it, but yeah, that does walk the line. I'd be on his side if the end result was still very clearly a dark angel that didn't look nurgly at all.

I thought the Dark Vengance set had a group of chaos marines in it, just not marked ones- am I thinking of the wrong set?

I can't quite tell if this is a joke about Dark Angels being secret traitors or not...

The impression I got from the OP was he wanted to convert the dark angels into chaos marines. Interesting question whether his friend objects to the dark angels conversions or the crimson slaughter ones too.

as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

 supreme overlord wrote:
as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

I don't mind this if they just started the army, or if it's a new model, but if it's something that's been out a while and they have a large collection, I usually put my foot down. For example - A regular opponent of mine plays Daemons, and has been for ages - He didn't have any Blue or Brimstone horrors, obviously, but I didn't mind him using zombies (which happen to be blue, except the unpainted ones, which are basecoated black,) as stand-ins. If a year goes by and he still lacks new horrors, though, that'll be a problem.

 supreme overlord wrote:
as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

This is an example of proxying, not an example of conversions. A conversion is an attempt to make a model not built to the instructions/official specifications that makes a significant effort to be the right size and have the correct equipment. A proxy is a stand-in for a model that makes no effort to look correct.

People get mad at proxies because of exactly this situation, where someone's going to try using paperclips or coins or cardboard tokens out of cheapness or laziness and it makes the game look terrible. Conversions that are done properly (which I would define as "sufficiently WYSIWYG to not cause confusion, and not immediately obvious as a conversion (i.e. with no random patches of unfinished greenstuff) when painted") are awesome and should be encouraged. Players shouldn't be forced to have all duplicates of the same unit entry look exactly the *bleep*ing same, just because GW can't be bothered to make more than one Death Jester or whatever.

A lot of these types of behavior is promoted by the organizers for tournament. If there are anyone to blame, it is them. WYSIWYG is a good concept but everyone misinterprets to the extreme. Conversion generally takes more work than buying the exact models. If you friend views it as being lazy, he has a problem, not you. The entire 40K community should boycott these type of behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Waaaghpower wrote:
I remember back when I got started in the game, (as an Ork player,) a friend refused to let me use some converted Kommandos that I'd made by brutalizing some Ork Boyz. It wasn't exactly a great looking conversion, but they also weren't finished yet, and I'd been playing for about two months at the time.
This was especially frustrating because they hadn't seen the models until after the game started, when I brought them in from reserve, and were refusing to let me play with them mid-game.

For all conversions and proxies, it is a courtesy to let your opponent know what you are using for what purposes before the game starts. He can either accept or refuse to play you at the start and then hold his peace afterward.

nareik wrote:

 B Stores wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Largely depends on how well you implement it, but yeah, that does walk the line. I'd be on his side if the end result was still very clearly a dark angel that didn't look nurgly at all.

I thought the Dark Vengance set had a group of chaos marines in it, just not marked ones- am I thinking of the wrong set?

I can't quite tell if this is a joke about Dark Angels being secret traitors or not...

The impression I got from the OP was he wanted to convert the dark angels into chaos marines. Interesting question whether his friend objects to the dark angels conversions or the crimson slaughter ones too.

No joke here. The Dark vengeance starter set has the Dark Angels Space Marines and a Chaos Space Marines force (couple of cultists, couple of Chaos Space Marine Chosen and a Chaos Space Marines Lord which might be painted up to look Nurgly and such, a mono-pose Hellbrute.

does he own a gaming store and annoyed at missing out on some clamshell sales?

 Lord Xcapobl wrote:

nareik wrote:

 B Stores wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

Largely depends on how well you implement it, but yeah, that does walk the line. I'd be on his side if the end result was still very clearly a dark angel that didn't look nurgly at all.

I thought the Dark Vengance set had a group of chaos marines in it, just not marked ones- am I thinking of the wrong set?

I can't quite tell if this is a joke about Dark Angels being secret traitors or not...

The impression I got from the OP was he wanted to convert the dark angels into chaos marines. Interesting question whether his friend objects to the dark angels conversions or the crimson slaughter ones too.

No joke here. The Dark vengeance starter set has the Dark Angels Space Marines and a Chaos Space Marines force (couple of cultists, couple of Chaos Space Marine Chosen and a Chaos Space Marines Lord which might be painted up to look Nurgly and such, a mono-pose Hellbrute.

Those are the ones I was thinking of! I made a Nurglitch hellbrute from that kit if I remember rightly. If you spread the parts around I think there were enough parts for a group of chaos marines as well as the cultists.

Ruin wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
Does your friend also play warmachine?

You've got the wrong end of the stick there. WMH's conversion rules are rather relaxed and have been for some time. The only thing you cannot change is the weapon type (and even then, these rules only apply for Steamroller events). As long as your opponent can tell what it is, then there is no problem. I've got loads of converted Jacks (mainly for my Mercenaries). All are easily identifiable and nobody has ever complained. Even our stickler TFG whom at our last tournament insisted one of our players swap out his Eyriss3 (whom he was using as Eyriss2 as he liked the model more, yes he was technically correct, but he wasn't running the tournament nor was he playing him. I had no issue as Eyriss3 is a CA and Eyriss2 is a solo and he had no units Eyriss3 could possibly be attached to in his forces.) said nothing about my converted Doom Reaver Ogrun Bokurs, neither of which are made from PP models or the DR unit leader made from the free Khorne guy from WD.

I'll admit the last time I checked the models were all metal and the playerbase was seemingly filled with idiotic screeching TFGs.

Largely depends on how well you implement it, but yeah, that does walk the line. I'd be on his side if the end result was still very clearly a dark angel that didn't look nurgly at all.

I get not wanting to allow it if the end result still looks too much like a Dark Angel (although personally I would still allow it as I'm fairly laid back about all this), but in what way does it "walk the line"?

Is the concern the Mk 7 armor? The Dark Angels iconography? Personally, I've read enough 40K fluff over the years that I've seen "modern" marines turn to chaos on a surprisingly regular basis. Heck, go read James Swallow's Blood Angels anthology (awful book - don't actually read it). It goes something like this: Word Bearers: "Mumble mumble mumble ... CHAOS MAGIC!" This turns half the Blood Angels in the book evil on the spot.
Look at all the Space Wolves (and other loyalist marines) Huron has in his fleet. I mean heck, all you have to do to make a Red Corsair is paint a red "x" over one shoulder pad. So with all that, I'm not sure why the OP's Dark Angels would "walk the line". I could easily see plenty of scenarios where they become Nurgle marines.

To the OP: Like some others have said, you probably aren't going to convince this person to change their mind. I would just recommend playing someone else.

First of all your friend is an idiot, because if the conversion looks good, its fine.

Second point out to your friend that there are many cases in which GW had rules but no models to represet the unit, IE void shield generators, titan, and pipelines, thunderhawks for a time. So ask him well what then? You were forced to do conversions/scratch build.

Your friend is being that guy, tell him not to be that guy, tell him to be this guy.

Whoo I just remembered that GW did the same thing as OP recently and wrote an article about it : )


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/19/bearers-of-the-word-article-one/

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He says that almost all conversions are lazy and bad and are basicly proxying. Can you give me some good counterarguments in the form of some stuff you've done or seen?

So looking to wiki for a "proper" definition:

Miniature conversion refers to the practice of altering the appearance of a miniature or model so as to deviate from the standard version purchased in a boxed set.

Then for definition for "Proxy" best I could find is this:

"Proxy" is when you use something as a stand-in for something else. Say using one standard model as a different one or some object to act as a "stand-in".

Then to go a step further (also found, not my words):

"Counts-as" is when you create something cool, outside the norm, and use the rules for something else to represent its abilities on the tabletop. Best used to represent things that exist in the background, but does not yet have a model or rules.

I would argue in this order:
1) To be "lazy" would be to keep to the original design of the model: it is just plain easier to build "as-is".
2) He would have to define what would be the "bad" conversions.
2a) Plain old parts swaps are hard to go wrong since the parts are from the same company and maintain a similar esthetic.
2b) Third party add-on parts can be quite nice and again it is hard for those to go wrong since they are "professionally" done.
2c) If a person sculpts or scratch builds pieces some respect should at least be given for the effort and would beg the question "Can your friend do any better?".

In the end it is your friend's opinion.
I think it is in error going by what is said above and also not terribly nice being nasty about people's efforts that I feel are not "lazy" at all.
I think it really depends on what models he has in mind that bugged him.

I still regret playing a game against "troops" that were only legs glued to a base.

 oldzoggy wrote:
Whoo I just remembered that GW did the same thing as OP recently and wrote an article about it : )


https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/02/19/bearers-of-the-word-article-one/

They ought to have taken that model and used just a bit of greenstuff to get the spiky extensions from the armour rim into the middle of the plates. And with all the spare book parts in the GK kits they've got no excuse for not giving their new Word Bearer Praetor a copy of the Book of Lorgar.

The GS and sculpting tools are in the mail right now, should be able to start work over the weekend.

Also this friend is my brother (LUMINARTI CUNFIRMED) so I don't really have options for playing with someone else, and the game store isn't very big.

 supreme overlord wrote:
as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

That would be pretty alright if he gave you the ones you managed to beat up.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
The GS and sculpting tools are in the mail right now, should be able to start work over the weekend.

Also this friend is my brother (LUMINARTI CUNFIRMED) so I don't really have options for playing with someone else, and the game store isn't very big.

...Oh, good. That means you have easy access to him. The first thing you need is a low-light projector. While he's sleeping, project an autoscrolling slideshow of amazing conversions, and plant a hidden speaker in his room that plays conversion guides at a very low volume. Issue should fix itself.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 supreme overlord wrote:
as a flip side to this I had a friend attempt to use penny's as summoned bloodletters in his KDK army. Put the kibosh on that real quick lol

That would be pretty alright if he gave you the ones you managed to beat up.

lol I'd consider it if they were dollars and the end of the game was at the strip club

Your friend/brother is an idiot and you should IMMEDIATELY disassociate yourself with him regarding all things.

Thats good advice right there...

Your friend is an A**hat.

He must be lonely then "your friend" playing all by himself

"He" must really dislike John Blanche then the ArchProxier Blanshitsu master himself!

In 2nd Edition GW literally sold a cardboard proxy for an Ork Dreadnought in the starter set.
I use some proxies nowadays - 2 Giant Skaven beasts to represent my Giant Chaos Spawn, who have never had models made for them. Still look good.
Whilst my normal Chaos Spawn are mostly all conversions, not proxies, and look great for it. Considering Chaos Spawn are supposed to be randomly mutated, wouldn't it be strange if they all looked the same?

When I play, as long as the model is legal, has the gear on it it's meant to, then it's a conversion, not a proxy.

Proxy is useful to try new things before purchase, or new tactics. Your bro is being a bit of a pendant, but keep at to convert him yourself, and he'll be much better for it.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
He takes particular issue with me converting the Dark Vengeance set to nurgely chaos.

I'm playing Devil's advocate here, because it's so easy to take your statement and say you're right, but clearly there is a tiny possibility that you misinterpreted his statements and that his mindset wasn't all that dumb - who knows.


Maybe because going for Dark Vengeance or any other deeply discounted starter set and converting everything out of it doesn't quite look the part and is intentionally cheap.

There's a big difference between converting for the pleasure, good converting because you've got no money, and bad converting because you're cheap.

I suggested that a friend of mine should use Genestealer models instead of Chaos Spawn, because they look slightly alike and are way cheaper.
Now his Genestealers weren't converted in any way, and were they lightly converted, they'd still look like Genestealers and not Chaos Spawn.
It would make sense to find that not as good as the actual official miniatures.

One of the big issues with DV and the likes is that some of these models are way too static and way too overexposed.
I remember someone lashing at BTP because they had used the AoBR boss model as basis for a conversion because that was the cheapest option.

Maybe your friend would be fine with good conversions where the sole driver wasn't money.



I'm a big fan of scratchbuilding and kitbashing, but many kitbash and scratchbuilds just plain suck (the obvious plastic dinosaur for the Orks, vehicles that don't look anything like 40K, scratchbuilds that basically look like a badly converted wood proportions-figure-thingy you use for drawing ..)
If you're going to spend your time making something that sucks more than what you could've bought, that's good for you, but nobody should be forced to like it or accept it.

How am I to field a Vendetta, veterans with shotguns, priests with plasmaguns or combi-flamers, veterans with 3x plasmaguns or 3x meltaguns, extra armour on veichles, plasmapistols on sergeants, bolt pistols/bolters on sergeants, demo charges in special weapons squad, platoon command squads or veterans with close combat weapons and laspistols?

All are Astra militarum choices the requires converting or that you cough up more money then the squad cost in the first place for blisters. Have your friend explain how I'm to play the game if I'm not allowed to use models the codex represents.

EDIT: I'm going to assume your friend place Space marines. They are far more covered plastically then anything else.

@morgoth - you clearly stated you were playing Devil's Advocate, so please note that this is directed at your argument and NOT you. It just so happens I've seen this attitude quite a bit IRL and on the forum.

There's a big difference between converting for the pleasure, good converting because you've got no money, and bad converting because you're cheap.

"Bu ... bu .... but ... YOU DIDN'T SPEND ENOUGH MONEY!"

I run into this more and more lately. So many people put up conversions (a lot of them are VERY cool), and ask if people would play against them. A lot of the board says "no". Then someone complains about an opponent not letting them use a Death Korps of Krieg army and the response is "Hey! You spent all that money you DESERVE to use those minis!". While the Krieg player SHOULD be allowed to use them, basing it on cost is silly. Especially when everyone screams about how much GW stuff costs to being with. Any fool with a credit card can get a Krieg army. It takes time, dedication and skill to do a conversion. Some of the best conversions I've ever seen started with 2$ miniatures from a bitz box. Why? Because they were the *gasp* cheapest option!

At the end of the day, a bad conversion is a bad conversion. How much that cost should have NOTHING to do with it. Yeah, if someone glues some random bits to a soda can, sloppily paints it, and calls it a Devilfish - yeah, that sucks. On the other hand - look at that deodorant tank from WD. It cost very little to make and it's pretty cool! So saying a conversion is unacceptable because not enough money was spent just wreaks or elitism, snobbery and a lack of imagination IMO.

One of the big issues with DV and the likes is that some of these models are way too static and way too overexposed.

So if people aren't allowed to convert these without being hassled, do we now also harass those folks who use these models in their regular armies ... because that was the cheapest option? This just makes no sense to me ...

morgoth wrote:
...doesn't quite look the part...

THIS needs to be the bar. Not 'did you spend enough money?', not 'does GW officially endorse this particular configuration of plastic?', only 'does it look like the thing (rules/lore) you're using it as?' If you want to use the DV Dark Angels as Chaos Marines (leaving aside the issue that CSM aren't allowed plasma cannons) you shouldn't be worrying about people griping at what official kits are supposed to represent which models, you should be worrying about making the DV models look Chaosified.

If your opponent plonks down bare plastic DV Dark Angels and tells you he's using them as CSM, and the plasma cannon and assault cannon represent something else, you've got grounds to complain about laziness (unless he's just starting the hobby and doesn't have anything else yet). If your opponent plonks down based, painted DV Dark Angels with the plasma cannon and the assault cannon swapped out for kit Chaos can use and the models pitted/scarred up to represent ten thousand years of war and has a backstory all plotted out for his Fallen warband, then he's being cool and you've got absolutely no grounds to complain.

Tycho wrote:
@morgoth - you clearly stated you were playing Devil's Advocate, so please note that this is directed at your argument and NOT you. It just so happens I've seen this attitude quite a bit IRL and on the forum.

There's a big difference between converting for the pleasure, good converting because you've got no money, and bad converting because you're cheap.

"Bu ... bu .... but ... YOU DIDN'T SPEND ENOUGH MONEY!"

I run into this more and more lately. So many people put up conversions (a lot of them are VERY cool), and ask if people would play against them. A lot of the board says "no". Then someone complains about an opponent not letting them use a Death Korps of Krieg army and the response is "Hey! You spent all that money you DESERVE to use those minis!". While the Krieg player SHOULD be allowed to use them, basing it on cost is silly. Especially when everyone screams about how much GW stuff costs to being with. Any fool with a credit card can get a Krieg army. It takes time, dedication and skill to do a conversion. Some of the best conversions I've ever seen started with 2$ miniatures from a bitz box. Why? Because they were the *gasp* cheapest option!

At the end of the day, a bad conversion is a bad conversion. How much that cost should have NOTHING to do with it. Yeah, if someone glues some random bits to a soda can, sloppily paints it, and calls it a Devilfish - yeah, that sucks. On the other hand - look at that deodorant tank from WD. It cost very little to make and it's pretty cool! So saying a conversion is unacceptable because not enough money was spent just wreaks or elitism, snobbery and a lack of imagination IMO.

I think the problem with "cheap" is "little investment".

Everybody plays this game with a major investment in time and some investment in cash.

When somebody comes with the cheapest model ever, with the cheapest conversion ever and a cheap paint job on top, it detracts from the experience and it clearly comes from the lack of personal investment of that person.
When he's the tenth guy you see pulling the same trick, it makes sense to say: "no more of that gak" - and it may sound exactly like the OP's brother at times.

And that Deodorant tank from WD's past does look a bit like garbage, I'd rather not play against that sorry - even though that's one sick deodorant tank.

Remember we're arguing against conversions that basically look like gak - I don't think anyone has anything against a good conversion which doesn't look like someone glued two things together and which fits the 40K universe.

When somebody comes with the cheapest model ever, with the cheapest conversion ever and a cheap paint job on top, it detracts from the experience and it clearly comes from the lack of personal investment of that person.

Again though, it should only "detract" from the experience if the conversion is actually bad. How much it cost should have nothing to do with it. Again, I've seen someone buy $7 of Greenstuff, a $2 miniature from a bitz box and produce a pretty incredible conversion (they already had paints so no need to buy new paint). The conversion was on the correct base, had the right weapons and was the size equivalent of the model it was intended to replace. Again, it also looked awesome. So does it detract from the experience because it's essentially a $9 model replacing a $40 model? It's a sad sad day if anyone can answer "yes" to that ...

morgoth wrote:
...we're arguing against conversions that basically look like gak...

So stop arguing about price. Price is irrelevant. Throw price out the window. You could make a terrible model out of hundreds of dollars of Forge World bits. You could make a fabulous model out of random spare parts and a bit of greenstuff.

The quality of a conversion is a function of price, skill, and time. If you're rushing and you've got no skill you may need to spend more to make your model look good, but if you know what you're doing and you spend a lot of time on it you could be working from random scraps and a bit of putty and end up with a good-looking model.

Poly Ranger wrote:
In 2nd Edition GW literally sold a cardboard proxy for an Ork Dreadnought in the starter set.
I use some proxies nowadays - 2 Giant Skaven beasts to represent my Giant Chaos Spawn, who have never had models made for them. Still look good.
Whilst my normal Chaos Spawn are mostly all conversions, not proxies, and look great for it. Considering Chaos Spawn are supposed to be randomly mutated, wouldn't it be strange if they all looked the same?

Rogue Trader had Battle for the Farm, with a couple of sets of figures that you had to photocopy, and stick to card and base.

I'd love to see a 'tournament legal' ork army using orks/nobz from this set, with heavy support in the form of the 2nd ed dreadnoughts!

Would be using the whfb 4th ed stone thrower as a lobba be to much of a proxy?

 Zingraff wrote:
I would say it depends entirely on the parts you use to make those conversions. If the model is WYSIWYG, conforms to the rules and the majority of the components are of GW origin, then I would be unable to comprehend why anyone would compare it to a proxy.

 JamesY wrote:
Could be a front for envying the skill and imagination to do it himself. He might be playing devil's advocate if he knows it winds you up. Whatever the reason, doesn't have to matter to you.

^This

Part of 40K is about being creative with your army, and let's not forget that GW actively encourages converting (or at least editing) models as it sells Green Stuff. If he's going to be that pedantic then is it really worth playing with him?
I plan to create some of my CSM with loyalist marines which have their aquilas removed/vandalised along with some chaosy addons. As well as saving money, it's fluffy and still complies with WYSIWYG.

Having said that, I've seen some terrible "conversions" on ebay where people stick a bunch of weapon Bitz onto a model and sell it as an "Obliterator". I think it really depends on the quality; if your opponent has no way of telling what the model is then it's not much of a conversion.

You know, I do have a memory/thought of when I got all upset about proxies.

My friends and I arranged to have a big Apocalypse type battle 6 people, 3 per side and thought it was a good time since we all had finished up most of our assembly and painting.
The one guy was very competitive and knew what armies we had and what we had painted up.

He sprang on us the "Carnival of Pain" formation for Dark Eldar.
The thing being is that all the models were printed out in colour, double sided and placed on dowel bases cut to the right thickness for mounting.
It was executed well but he had a TON of actual models and decided to field that entire proxy army when the intent was to get a big "painted" battle together.
When pointed out that the proxy "models" were not ideal, we got from him "Do you have any idea how much Grotesques, Talos and Wracks cost??" and he was quite angry about it.
I had to point out "I would also love to field a Warlord Titan but do you have any idea how much that costs??, wait one minute, I can print one out on poster paper.".
Anyway, no one won in that bit: we were upset for doing all that work for everything to look good and this guy did spend some effort in making an entire proxy army but it was all about the win when it boiled down to it.
We played anyway but it was not one of our more... pleasant games.
The formation certainly caved face well (I was on the main receiving end of that) so that goal was accomplished.

My army was not tactically ideal, it was everything I had that fit the written intent for the game: to have something look good on the table.
We each spent time assembling and painting up terrain so it looked awesome.

Sometimes people want to try out some tactics, proxy whatever you want is fine: people have been playing with unpainted chess pieces for years: it is no big deal.
Sometimes people want a good looking game so it is more than just pushing around unfinished "toys" on a table.

Your friend is a kind of a dumbass. I mean, what a gakky opinion... Man. Even Games Workshop supports conversions. They even have a section In some White Dwarfs called "Sprues and Glue," WHICH IS ALL ABOUT CONVERTING MODELS! Even if WD didn't have enough that section, how can you possibly think there's something wrong with it? And how is it "lazy?"

Personally, I would drop your friend and not talk to him. You and I both know his stupidity is going to bring you down.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

morgoth wrote:
...we're arguing against conversions that basically look like gak...

So stop arguing about price. Price is irrelevant. Throw price out the window. You could make a terrible model out of hundreds of dollars of Forge World bits. You could make a fabulous model out of random spare parts and a bit of greenstuff.

The quality of a conversion is a function of price, skill, and time. If you're rushing and you've got no skill you may need to spend more to make your model look good, but if you know what you're doing and you spend a lot of time on it you could be working from random scraps and a bit of putty and end up with a good-looking model.

There's no "price" argument, just the "lack of personal investment" argument.

When something sucks, and it was a honorable attempt by someone who did all they could to make it not suck, people tend to be nicer than when it sucks and it's obvious the person didn't even try to do it right.

That implies investment in time and/or money.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Considering Chaos Spawn are supposed to be randomly mutated, wouldn't it be strange if they all looked the same?

I agree 100%! There shouldn't even be a model for the chaos spawn!

Pass him a Warhammer 3rd Edition, Realms of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness book and tell him to generate a chaos champion and warband.

A quick dice roll for me created:

Slaanesh Lvl 10 Human Wizard who has the face of a Fiend of Slaanesh, Eyestalks, Prehensile Tail, limb loss (arm).

While my warband consists of after 3 dice rolls.
3 Goblins with Bows
7 Beastmen
1 Troll with a Mane of Hair

Then ask him how he is going to field it on the battlefield?

Good luck doing it without some converting.

Or check these out from Eavy Metal back in the day. Spoiler for size.

While he irritates me don't insult my brother.

Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

Hi there, your friend is full of it.

I proxy an entire Imperial Guard force with Only star wars miniatures, because I'm lazy.
Conversion takes Actual effort as you kitbash, re-pose, and paint new and (sometimes) interesting New models.

Your friend can, and should!, eat his own foot.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
While he irritates me don't insult my brother.

Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

"You're hobbying wrong. Stop having badwrongfun." ?

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

Let me guess: only a couple years difference in age as brothers?
It is his job to bug the living heck out of you!
My brother was 7 years younger than me and not a single model, Star Wars action figure or comic book from my childhood survived him, he destroyed them utterly.
Don't get me started about my Magic the Gathering cards from when the game first released way back when...

So feel perfectly free to point out the shortcomings of your brother's army:
"Ah, the vanilla paint by numbers brigade... again!"
"Which one is your squad leader again? They all look the same...."
"So, if I fold the model instructions wrong in front of you, will your head explode?"
"If I wanted a better opinion, I should have had a sister."
<pick up a model of his> "What the heck is that??? Do you need glasses or assemble in the dark... oh, never mind..." <put the model down quickly like it has a disease, rub your hands on your pants>
<squint your eyes at his army and mutter> "... Is that the paint, or not wet enough, or using a glue brush???.... <give your head a shake and continue what you were doing>

Or the all time favorite comment:

<pick up model, look at it..> "Nice coverage!!".

This is irritating garbage reserved for your brother or sister, to be used sparingly with friends with great laughter and to be used on strangers you would rather not know... ever.

Post some pics of what you have "proxied".
Context would be helpful.

A model is a representation of something, typically in the context of an ideal representation. In our case as wargamers, the models are the central part of the hobby whether painting or gaming. Without the models, this hobby would not exist.

From a painting and collecting perspective, there is nothing wrong at all with doing conversion work, especially if you have painted dozens or hundreds of miniatures. Converting gives you an additional creative outlet in an already creative hobby. By converting, you are making a statement that "this is my model, it is unique and one of a kind, and it is mine". It gives individuals a chance to make their mark on this great hobby and own their little piece of it. Converting is also handy if you feel burnout on a particular kind of model, giving you a chance to make something a little bit different from the other models to stand out on its own.

Gaming wise, all models are "proxies" if you want to get really technical. When you are building your army, you select the army, formations, and units based on the combination of rules and aesthetics. This collection of rules is then represented by small figurines on bases made from various materials to play the game. To represent a Tactical Marine, you use a model. To represent an Obliterator, you use a model. To represent a Warhound Titan, you use a model. Any thing can be used to "represent" the unit or model profile from the rules. Sure, there are "official" models that are sold for that purpose, but you don't have to use them.

The only time that conversions can cause an issue is if their representations are causing confusion to your opponent; such as a converted model representing a Plasma Gun wielding Space Marine is modeled with a Melta Gun. In this case, conversions can hurt your game. But any other time, they are fine. So long as they fit the scale of the game you are playing, getting close in visual profile and on the appropriate base size, then there should be no issues with using conversions in your army.

If someone takes the time to put together a cool conversion to play their army, it should be okay. I converted up a bunch of Imperial Guard Ogryns and Rough Riders back in the day because I dislike working with and painting pewter models (I still dislike it), and I have seen many people convert up alternate models simply because they did not care for the currently offered products or even as a personal challenge to accomplish. There is one guy in my area who is a MASTER of converting models and using Green Stuff; if anyone refused to play him for his model works, I would put that person on my do-not-play list.

Converting is a fun and creative outlet. I feel genuine pity to folks who refuse to give a chance to making and creating new and unique models. If you unable to spend the money, time, or effort on converting models, that is okay, just don't act elitist or snobbish. Criticizing someone else for doing what they consider to be fun only hurts feelings and fractures our wargamer community.

Here's what I have so far with the green stuff. I plan to add more, to the legs and such. After these guys I've got 5 termies, 3 bikes, chaplain to sorcerer, Chaos Lord, Aspiring Champion.

You've made some pretty cool gribble there!

If you have access to spare chaos pieces you could consider doing hand/weapon swaps to alter the silhouette of the model.

I found altering the backpacks or adding horns/spikes/etc to helmets also helped.

These guys were originally bolter marines (and the sergeant) from the DV box.

 Cleatus wrote:
Deodorant Tank from White Dwarf 95 says your friend's argument is invalid. With instructions on how to build it, no less.

Spoiler:

If your friend doesn't like your conversions, tell him that he is more than welcome to buy you the "official" models and shut up about it.

This.
This is the 40k I know and love.

Looks good to me as a chaos space marine force suffering the effects of Papa Nurgle and once you have them painted up in suitably unhealthy colours I can't see any problem in facing them across the battlefield.

Looks nurgly to me. And not too over the top either. Kudos.

 MrVulcanator wrote:
Also he says that specifically what I'm doing is lazy. He thinks that I can't do a good job. He says it's not about money but some other vague concept that I can't remember.

How are we meant to come up with a counter-argument to an argument you don't even remember?

Looking at your models, they aren't terrible, but I wouldn't say they look great either. I'd say the gold standard for a good conversion is that it should look better than the original model and yours don't achieve that in my mind. Still, everyone has to start somewhere and from what you are telling us your brother is being unreasonable (but most people can make someone arguing against them seem unreasonable when they tell the story of the argument to a third party and can't even remember what the other person said).

Miaow. If you can't say something nice... :p
They look cool to me, especially for a beginner- my first models were atrocious xD