I was looking back on GW's site after not playing 40k in a bit, and was pretty amazed how they released a primarch. I have a couple questions about it though.
-Is Gulliman allowed to be in normal games? Or is rising storm it's on thing?

-Is Gulliman good? Not asking for stats, but does he stand a chance against most other armies?

-And if you have played him and recommend him, what kind of army would you build around him? You don't have to go into detail, but like maybe throw some general ideas around maybe?

Thanks in advance

He can be used in normal games, and for a character that's priced at 350 points, he's worth double that. So he's good. Ridiculously so.

Gulliman is a lord of war option for ANY army of the Imperium (so you can take him with a SOB army, a guard army, a space marine army, a admech army)

he's good but has a few weaknesses a savvy player can exploit, he's a MC so he can't join units, and load up on transports, so he's got to hoof it across the battlefield. he could be hurt bad by grav for example, but he's still plenty good

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is a lord of war option for ANY army of the Imperium (so you can take him with a SOB army, a guard army, a space marine army, a admech army)

he's good but has a few weaknesses a savvy player can exploit, he's a MC so he can't join units, and load up on transports, so he's got to hoof it across the battlefield. he could be hurt bad by grav for example, but he's still plenty good

The 3++ invuln save sort of negates a lot of the impact of Grav to be honest. Hoofing it isn't that much of an issue with you consider how durable he is - he's far superior to the Avatar, Greater Daemons or Hive Tyrants on foot who are in the same position in turns of durability.

A 2+/3++, 6 Wounds, EW, Fleet and the ability to get back up on his feet makes footslogging less of an issue to be honest. Add to that Precision Shots and Strikes it means even with what little shooting he has he's still singling out characters and special weapons etc.

Also he's got an ap2 heavy bolter. There are 2 negatives I can see are him being an MC so no."look out sir " and no assault grenades. I couldn't believe he was really that cheap. Especially with his Roboute protocols.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Also he's got an ap2 heavy bolter. There are 2 negatives I can see are him being an MC so no."look out sir " and no assault grenades. I couldn't believe he was really that cheap. Especially with his Roboute protocols.

Don't think lack of grenades is much of issue with his durability. Also wasn't there some formation that gives him LOS with that formations unit? Though of course more points.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is a lord of war option for ANY army of the Imperium (so you can take him with a SOB army, a guard army, a space marine army, a admech army)

he's good but has a few weaknesses a savvy player can exploit, he's a MC so he can't join units, and load up on transports, so he's got to hoof it across the battlefield. he could be hurt bad by grav for example, but he's still plenty good

The 3++ invuln save sort of negates a lot of the impact of Grav to be honest. Hoofing it isn't that much of an issue with you consider how durable he is - he's far superior to the Avatar, Greater Daemons or Hive Tyrants on foot who are in the same position in turns of durability.

A 2+/3++, 6 Wounds, EW, Fleet and the ability to get back up on his feet makes footslogging less of an issue to be honest. Add to that Precision Shots and Strikes it means even with what little shooting he has he's still singling out characters and special weapons etc.

ohh definatly, he's a FANTASTIC character, those weaknesses aren't too big a deal. I'm pointing them out simply in the intreast of noting them, I am very much NOT of the mind that "OMG he doesn't move as fast as a jetbike and have a 2++ re-rollable he sucks" to be honest I'm not sure I can think of any way they could have improved it and still stuck to the feel of the character

It sounds though that if an Avatar of Khaine gets into combat with him, he's going to be stuck. He's got armor to ward off blows, but the avatar is immune to his attacks (soul blaze automatically). So he can deal with a lot. But there is a troll-counter to him.

I love that he has fearless so he can't use Our Weapons Are Useless to back out of the avatar fight.

If the Space Marine player lets an Avatar into combat with Guilliman, they are bad and should feel bad.

The Emperor invented Grav for a reason, battle brothers!

Edit: Guilliman is alright if hes unsupported by Psykers, and a murder machine if he is. I dont think hes worth easily worth double his points as an above poster over exaggerated, but he is fairly good. Keep him near something the enemy wants to charge, and make em risk getting a fisting full of Guilliman.

He seems bizzarely designed when weighed against the 30k Primarchs (who aren't MCs and can join units/enter vehicles).

The 30k Primarchs are relatively fairly priced at 400-500pts apeice (Magnus may be underpriced and Angron is definitely overpriced), seeing Guilliman with similar performance in most areas weighing in at 350pts without the ability to join units/use transports doesn't seem that far-fetched to me.

I don't get why people are gushing over the Gulliman's rules, they're not that great.

He won't be able to pick his fights because he is among the slowest units in the game. There is a reason why a daemon prince without wings is utter gak and a Daemon prince with wings is great. Gulliman is basically a +1 Daemon prince without wings.

Hell, a knight is superior to him in just about every way for 25 more points.

He's alright, but as pointed out a few times here, he suffers from severe speed issues. Yes, anything (other than an Avatar) that Roboute gets his big blue hands on is toast, but without a transport or anything to boost his speed to more than 6" + charge range/run per turn, the amount of damage he will cause will ultimately be determined by how much his opponent lets him touch.

Guilliman is a character whos stats, equipment, special rules and paraphernalia total out to just over a thousand points. He knows every Command Warlord trait, is incredibly tanky with a 2+/3++ plus FNP plus Eternal Warrior, incredibly shooty with a BS 6 Assault3 A6 AP2 heavy bolter, hits like a gak brickhouse with 6 attacks base, plus two CCw, plus all the buffs the Emperors own pimpstick gives him (including 'D' close combat hits on a 6), not to mention all the other special rules he has....

Yeah, a 1000ish point model priced at 350 points is more than worth taking.

As usual he is either:

Rubbish and useless and overpointed (as he is too slow)

Super OP and breaks the game.

Well, if you have massed 'D' or massed grav he should be doable. Or Tau shooting. Just.
Anything else and your fethed.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Guilliman is a character whos stats, equipment, special rules and paraphernalia total out to just over a thousand points. He knows every Command Warlord trait, is incredibly tanky with a 2+/3++ plus FNP plus Eternal Warrior, incredibly shooty with a BS 6 Assault3 A6 AP2 heavy bolter, hits like a gak brickhouse with 6 attacks base, plus two CCw, plus all the buffs the Emperors own pimpstick gives him (including 'D' close combat hits on a 6), not to mention all the other special rules he has....

Yeah, a 1000ish point model priced at 350 points is more than worth taking.

He has two CCWs? I didn't know that.

And while I'd argue he's worth more than 350, he is NOT a 1,000 point model.

Yeah. A Knight is faster, hits with more D, and has better guns.

Guilliman's a tank no doubt, but he doesn't seem that hard to handle either. If it's unreasonable to try to kill him, then avoid him. As an MC you're going to see him coming from a mile away.

Guilliman's a tank no doubt, but he doesn't seem that hard to handle either. If it's unreasonable to try to kill him, then avoid him. As an MC you're going to see him coming from a mile away.

Agree. He's crazy powerful for his cost because you might not get to use him on anything worthy of his abilities. He's very easy to kite and bubble wrap against. I'll gladly let him mulch a unit of 10 Kroot or 5 Fire Warriors for an extra shooting phase. Most of the time, it's best to just kill his army out from under him, screening your important units as necessary.

So you're saying he can't win a dance-off with the harlequins? Uncle Emps is gonna be unhappy.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Guilliman is a character whos stats, equipment, special rules and paraphernalia total out to just over a thousand points. He knows every Command Warlord trait, is incredibly tanky with a 2+/3++ plus FNP plus Eternal Warrior, incredibly shooty with a BS 6 Assault3 A6 AP2 heavy bolter, hits like a gak brickhouse with 6 attacks base, plus two CCw, plus all the buffs the Emperors own pimpstick gives him (including 'D' close combat hits on a 6), not to mention all the other special rules he has....

Yeah, a 1000ish point model priced at 350 points is more than worth taking.

He has two CCWs? I didn't know that.

And while I'd argue he's worth more than 350, he is NOT a 1,000 point model.

He has two weapons whcih are combined into one profile for close combat - does that count as two CCWs? Not sure it does.

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is a lord of war option for ANY army of the Imperium (so you can take him with a SOB army, a guard army, a space marine army, a admech army)

Actually he can't. The faction symbol on his data sheet is Space Marines. Only Space Marines with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics can take him as a Lord of War.

The only way to take him in other Imperial armies is through the Triumvirate of the Primarch formation.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is a lord of war option for ANY army of the Imperium (so you can take him with a SOB army, a guard army, a space marine army, a admech army)

Actually he can't. The faction symbol on his data sheet is Space Marines. Only Space Marines with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics can take him as a Lord of War.

The only way to take him in other Imperial armies is through the Triumvirate of the Primarch formation.

The symbol means nothing. Celestine has Adepta Sororitas' symbol, Cawl has the AdMech symbol, Greyfax has Inquisition...all three can be included in any Imperium army.

From the actual book:
"This section includes four datasheets – the mysterious Cypher (pg 120), the Fallen (pg 122), Grand Master Voldus of the Grey Knights (pg 124) and Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines himself (pg 128). Grand Master Voldus and Roboute Guilliman are new Army List Entries that can be included in any Armies of the
Imperium Detachment, regardless of their Faction."

 mmzero252 wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Gulliman is a lord of war option for ANY army of the Imperium (so you can take him with a SOB army, a guard army, a space marine army, a admech army)

Actually he can't. The faction symbol on his data sheet is Space Marines. Only Space Marines with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics can take him as a Lord of War.

The only way to take him in other Imperial armies is through the Triumvirate of the Primarch formation.

The symbol means nothing. Celestine has Adepta Sororitas' symbol, Cawl has the AdMech symbol, Greyfax has Inquisition...all three can be included in any Imperium army.

From the actual book:
"This section includes four datasheets – the mysterious Cypher (pg 120), the Fallen (pg 122), Grand Master Voldus of the Grey Knights (pg 124) and Roboute Guilliman, the Primarch of the Ultramarines himself (pg 128). Grand Master Voldus and Roboute Guilliman are new Army List Entries that can be included in any Armies of the
Imperium Detachment, regardless of their Faction."

See the above reply? That's the rules.

So before you state something contrary, read the gorram book first

Faction symbol is meaningless for Guilliman in terms of choosing him for an army. He follows the same selection rules as Cawl, Greyfax and Celestine do, much like the Ynnari triumvirate do the same with Eldar/DE/Harlequin armies.

The only character who is slightly different is Cypher - as he doesn't take up a Force Org slot and behaves differently if taken as part of a Fallen formation with alliance levels.

In the other persons' defense, that is ONLY stated two pages before the start of the datasheets. It's on a big page of text (granted it's literally the first thing the page says), but the page seems rather filled with unnecessary things.

There's nothing noting this exception on any of their individual datasheets.

Bobby is decent, and he can be a wrecking ball if the mission forces the units to gather or stay somewhere static, like relic or emperor's will.

But in most games his low mobility just keeps him from being a competitive choice, especially in maelstrom or tourney games that incorporate maelstrom like ITC. He will essentially be a 350 point 3 shot gun that is giving you doctrines and rerolls of 1's for days, at least until the dudes around him have all been shot to death. He pretty much has "carnifex-itis."

In most cases I would rather have a knight in his place.

 mmzero252 wrote:
In the other persons' defense, that is ONLY stated two pages before the start of the datasheets. It's on a big page of text (granted it's literally the first thing the page says), but the page seems rather filled with unnecessary things.

There's nothing noting this exception on any of their individual datasheets.

It's nice to know GW still know how to write a book with the rules scattered randomly throughout instead of all in one place

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 mmzero252 wrote:
In the other persons' defense, that is ONLY stated two pages before the start of the datasheets. It's on a big page of text (granted it's literally the first thing the page says), but the page seems rather filled with unnecessary things.

There's nothing noting this exception on any of their individual datasheets.

It's nice to know GW still know how to write a book with the rules scattered randomly throughout instead of all in one place

They haven't even learned how to write decently balanced rules...You think they would understand how the flow of information should go?

If Guilliman was not a monstrous creature, then yeah, he would be strong. It's debatable if he would be imperial knight level (which is probably the go-to LoW for imperial armies) if he were not a monstrous creature as he replaces superior offensive power of an imperial knight (from shooting, melee/stomps, and general speed) for more durability and utility.

All the potential offensive punch of Guilliman does not mean much if he cannot use it. There are quite a few examples of monstrous creatures with offensive punch who rarely get to use it due to footslogging, wingless daemon princes, wingless hive tyrant, skarbrand, the avatar, swarmlord, etc.

Is he a fun, fluffy model that I will use in my games? Most certainly!

Is he the second coming of the wraithknight? No, he is not.

 mmzero252 wrote:
In the other persons' defense, that is ONLY stated two pages before the start of the datasheets. It's on a big page of text (granted it's literally the first thing the page says), but the page seems rather filled with unnecessary things.

There's nothing noting this exception on any of their individual datasheets.

Yes, I missed that. Thank you for the information.

Can you kill a FNP riptide? If the answer is yes then you can kill Gman. The difference is the Riptide is 100+ points less and WAY more dangerous from turn 1.

Personally, he is over priced as he is. You need to spend even more points on either a super heavy transport or a librarius conclave to sort his mobility issue and in some formats neither resolves the issue well.

Without MC status he would be great!

I'd love to have a tyranid MC with Guilliman's rules

The main argument against him seems to be "He very slow thus is not very good".

I know that every unit that comes out that doesn't move like an eldar jetbike or gargantuan creature is considered crap by comparison and I do see that point as fast movement is very valuable in this game but if you play with objectives and other faster elements units that move at the normal 6" can still prove useful especially if they are as deadly as RG. Also placing all of your objective as close together in one area of the table helps alot here as well.

And talking about his speed he's not as slow as people seem to think:

Turn 1 - don't fire the bolter, run! With his fleet, move through cover and extra 1" run you'll get an average of 11" with him leaving you just shy of the table centre.

Turn 2 - Charge something! Again with fleet, move through cover and an extra 1" charge you have an average threat range of 15-16" which covers a massive area of the board. If the opponent declines to move that close great, you now have some control of where he does and doesn't go, use it and move RG 11" towards them.

15" charge range might not be quite thunderwolf range but it's not bad and certainly not "one of the slowest units in the game".

The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

Boohoo, muh ultra powerful super unit has a single aspect that is not massively broken.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

Boohoo, muh ultra powerful super unit has a single aspect that is not massively broken.

He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

I'm actually curious, did you just ram everything into him or?

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The real fact is that if you aren't compatible with gladius - you arent that good.

Gurlyman requires Tiggy/Conclave to shunt him into combat and Tiggy requires a beefy unit to keep him alive. This basically makes gladius a no go.

The Ultramarines formation isn't terrible. You still have to take a CAD to get FA drop pods to put Tiggy in for the shunt move. The real bummer is the GAK formations that came with the book. It's too bad Guryl didn't come with a formation that was designed to get him into combat quickly. Instead we get sterngards and vangards that can't take transports....and basically a gladius minus 1.

Boohoo, muh ultra powerful super unit has a single aspect that is not massively broken.

He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

God tier stats, D close combat attacks, S6 AP2 Rending Heavy Bolter, FNp, EW, insane abilities on his sword, knows all of the Command Warlord Traits, as someone else pointed out is averaging 11" move (including running) on turn one giving him a threat range of 23" on turn one if he chooses to charge (12" deploy + 6" move + 2D6" charge, has a 2+/3++ plus FNP, is an MC......
All that and more for 350 points. I wish my Guard had something that was as terrible as Girlyman.

So he's melee riptide. Tau can have an army of shooting riptides.

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

He is way more durable than a Riptide... And even without D his attacs are still s10 ap1 amourbane, so he has quite good chances against both knights and wraithknights in combat.
And wraithknights are op so what does that say about him?

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

I small something, and it isn't fresh flowers.

What list and what exactly did you do? Assuming you did that.

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

He is way more durable than a Riptide... And even without D his attacs are still s10 ap1 amourbane, so he has quite good chances against both knights and wraithknights in combat.
And wraithknights are op so what does that say about him?

How is he more durable thsn a stimtide?

S10 ap 1 doesn't mean much to a sword/board knight that swings str d every attack. Plus he can get stomped.

He's a CC beast that can't get in CC without huge support. His 6 warlord traits...guess what no one ever mentions? Gladius + ultra marines chapter tactics already gives you reroll 1's to hits for 2 turns (and lots of twin linked too) so it's really useless. Gladius gives you even more reroll 1's...do you notice a trend?

This would be comparable to giving gardsmen an additional lasgun - knowing they can only shoot 1 las gun.

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Jorim wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


He's not that great, imo. His speed kills him as a great unit.

So you are saying that a MC with the option of D hits and the ability to come back after being killed, aswell as buffing most of your army is not even great, martel? ;-)
I thought you of all people would totaly call that op.

No, because I've seen celestine in the front of a bunch of TWC. That's much, much worse. Much worse.

This guy gets D hits on a "6"? He's 130 pts more than a Riptide and has similar durability? And slower? And has a worse shooting attack?

And he's incompatible with Gladius. Grats you just turned your marines into BA.

He's also more than a sword/board WK that swings at D all the time and stomps and is immune to poison and moves 12" and is considerably harder to wound.

He is way more durable than a Riptide... And even without D his attacs are still s10 ap1 amourbane, so he has quite good chances against both knights and wraithknights in combat.
And wraithknights are op so what does that say about him?

How is he more durable thsn a stimtide?

S10 ap 1 doesn't mean much to a sword/board knight that swings str d every attack. Plus he can get stomped.

He has more wounds, always a 3++, EW, and can get up after being killed. So yes he appears a little bit more durable.
Against a wraithknight he hits first, hits on 3s, so If he gets the charge he has 7 attacs at ini 6, and gets rerolles on most things so statistically he should win most fights. And even in the rarer cases in which he dies he can just get back up on a 4+...

The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

 curran12 wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Let me put it this way: On Saturday, I played a 1500 point goff killmob, and tabled white scars and genestealers in two separate games.

I challenged gulliman, just gulliman, because I knew exactly what would happen. And I wasn't wrong, gulliman tabled my entire army by turn 5, on his own.

I did a single wound to him.

I small something, and it isn't fresh flowers.

What list and what exactly did you do? Assuming you did that.

Well, see the attached picture, for you 'pics or didn't happen folks'. Like I said, it was a goff killmob, more or less base. Nobz had 6x big choppas, one pk, waagh banner, the named warboss (forget the name), kans had grotzookas, dreads had extra power klaw and skorchas, 2 boyz had nobz with Pk, one with a big choppa.

The match was just for curiosity's sake. I pretty much set up, let him place gulliman wherever he wanted and gave him first turn to be 'fair'.

First turn, he charged the nobz, killed 6. Warboss and PK nob survived, did like 4 hits, bounced off invlun. Sweeping advanced.

My turn, charged with 2x groups of 20 boyz and gorkanaut. Had to challenge with big choppa nob. Whirlwinded, killed nob and like 10 boyz, stunned the gorkanaut. Didn't hit with either the gorknauat or the remaining PK nob (hits on 5s). Boyz hit on 5, wound on 6s, he has a 2+ save and FNP. That's literally the best unbuffed protection in the game. Made my mob rules.

his turn 2 , whirlwinded again, killed the PK nob and blew up the gorkanaut. explosion killed about half of the remaining boyz. They did no damage. failed mob rules and were sweeping advanced.

My turn 2, charged with both deff dreads and killa kans. If I recall, I think he blew up both deff dreads and 2 of the kans before they could swing.

his turn 3, killed remaining killa kan.

My turn 3, charged with last unit of boyz. Did one wound in shooting, oddly. PK nob had to challenge, was instakilled, along with 8 or so boyz. No damage to him. Sweeping advanced.

And don't get me wrong. I told everyone there I was going to get my ass kicked, so it didn't come as a surprise to me.

The problem is that I cannot kill 2+ FNP MCs at range. I can't shoot riptides to death, for example. I have to assault them.

gulliman is like a riptide, which I can't shoot to death, that also walks through 1500 points of an melee army. That's a problem.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

I didn't say underpowered. He's obviously better than anything in my codex, but then again, he's an MC, so duh.

I just love the selective outrage, even though MCs have been owning 7th edition all along. There's now one additional Imperial MC. The end is NEAR!

So you literally gave Guilliman -EXACTLY- the best case scenario to win by giving him the choice of deployment, not shooting him and feeding him one or two units at a time? And you're using the fact that by playing incredibly badly (in such a way that it is clearly weighted in RG's favor) that this is somehow proof of him being broken?

"The problem is that I cannot kill 2+ FNP MCs at range. I can't shoot riptides to death, for example. I have to assault them. "

You're ahead of me then, because I can't do it either way.

 curran12 wrote:
So you literally gave Guilliman -EXACTLY- the best case scenario to win by giving him the choice of deployment, not shooting him and feeding him one or two units at a time? And you're using the fact that by playing incredibly badly (in such a way that it is clearly weighted in RG's favor) that this is somehow proof of him being broken?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'feeding'. I charged him with as much as I could fit on his base, as often as I could. I shot him as much as I could. If I had given myself first turn, nothing would have been different, other than another pathetic round of shooting.

If I had set up like a normal game, the only difference is he would walk toward me, me toward him. Just saved time.

I mean, does 350 points walking through 1500 not sound broken to you?

And this wasn't a set-myself-up-to-fail list. I had tabled white scars and genestealers with the same list earlier in the day. It was just what I had out and I thought I'd see if gulliman was as broken as I feared.

It's not the best list in the world, I'll freely admit. And far from ideal from tackling gulliman. But still, it illustrates that as orks, I am going to seriously struggle with just gulliman, much less him with an army at his back.

First off, it's 1500 pts of Orks. That's like talking about 1500 pts of DE or BA.

Secondly, this is the exact crap I've been dealing with for quite some time now against Tau using BA. Sure, he might be undercosted. Is he Riptide undercosted? I doubt it. Does he get to shoot you off the table before you do ANYTHING? No.

If we look at list that aren't BA or Orks, solutions appear. Feed him some wraiths and lol all the way to the bank. Stomps, D weapons, all the fun 7th ed stuff we all know and love.

Yea, orks will just shoot models off the board lol. And why feed him units one at a time when he attacks first? You charge a single squad of orks at him, and he has the potential to kill them all before they even respond. Throwing the maximum amount of orks at him to have some potentially survive would be the only way.

Taking the fact that orks are terrible out of the equation, why should any model be able to kill a standard army size on his own? Riptides could not do what guilliman did there.

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

Meanwhile Chaos, Tyranid, Ork, AM and Dark Eldar players are looking at this monstrosity and scratching their heads as to what exactly they can do. 6+ S10 AP1 attacks deletes any tarpit you can throw at it, a 2+/3++ pretty much ignores weight of fire and the fact he can get back up once brought down basically means the 2-3 turns of focused fire it takes for these armies to down him goes to waste.

People keep trying to compare him to things like the Swarmlord and Foot Daemon Princes....

What you don't realise is that pointswise he's comparable to them (Swarmlord and some Guard, PA ML3 Prince with Artefact) but statwise he is far, far superior...

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

Meanwhile Chaos, Tyranid, Ork, AM and Dark Eldar players are looking at this monstrosity and scratching their heads as to what exactly they can do. 6+ S10 AP1 attacks deletes any tarpit you can throw at it, a 2+/3++ pretty much ignores weight of fire and the fact he can get back up once brought down basically means the 2-3 turns of focused fire it takes for these armies to down him goes to waste.

People keep trying to compare him to things like the Swarmlord and Foot Daemon Princes....

What you don't realise is that pointswise he's comparable to them (Swarmlord and some Guard, PA ML3 Prince with Artefact) but statwise he is far, far superior...

Exactly my point. I can throw my entire 1.5K armies worth of shooting at him for three/four turns and I might still not be able to bring him down. At 2K I might just be able to do it in three turns with my Macro Cannon. And THEN, after having spent half/over half the game bringing him down I then have a 50/50 chance of having to do it all over again.
And this is assuming the impossible situation that I do not lose any of my units over the course of the entire game, which I will. So it might take me the entire game to bring him down the first time, assuming that I shoot nothing else.

I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Do we yet know if RG size is a result of his fancy new armor?

I wonder if future primarchs will be MC's or if this is a direct result of the armor.

The OG rumors I thought had RG in some sort of dreadknight armor I thought. Can see how that easily could have been a misconception bases on the medical armor.

I think if you put him in the middle of an IG gun line designed for maximum long range fire, then he will be quite powerful. His command abilities will make the IG shine and he becomes the perfect counter attack unit when the enemy hits your lines.

This all sounds eerily familiar to the hemming and hawing I was hearing when Imperial Knights came around.

Seems like 40k survived those dark times, I'm sure Rowboat Cunningham won't break the game wide open.

As an Ork player, I agree with most of my kin in that he still doesn't seem more overpowered than the ridiculous cheese already present in the meta. Just another thing on an already long list of models we'll struggle to fight against...

 master of ordinance wrote:
I wish my Guard had something that was as terrible as Girlyman.

Amusingly... they can! Because Girlyman is a unit of the Imperium rather than an astartes unit, you can take him with any Imperial army. Which just makes me shake my head and sigh at the at-best-obnoxious fluff implications, but that's life.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skerr wrote:
I wonder if future primarchs will be MC's or if this is a direct result of the armor.

I think he's an MC because of his ego demanding that he stand alone.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Except a riptide is blasting you with a demolisher cannon (basically) every turn from 60 inch range - in the riptid wing hes doing it twice. The riptide is also a stand alone unit that can do almost everything well. Gurly requires support and hes still only doing 1 thing well - and even then is still not as strong as a wraitknight in CC whilst being slower.

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Will you ever stop complaining about Riptides in every single thread?

 Melissia wrote:
I think he's an MC because of his ego demanding that he stand alone.

It's just GW continuing their trend 'let's make things that have absolutely no business being MC into MCs, because who even knows'.

Like you know, Dreadknight, Riptide, every form of 30k and 40k battle-automata and so on and so forth.

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Will you ever stop complaining about Riptides in every single thread?

Well, it's an MC. And this guy is an MC. They both have 2+, so the comparison seems unavoidable. We can also compare to DK, if you like.

I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Except a riptide is blasting you with a demolisher cannon (basically) every turn from 60 inch range - in the riptid wing hes doing it twice. The riptide is also a stand alone unit that can do almost everything well. Gurly requires support and hes still only doing 1 thing well - and even then is still not as strong as a wraitknight in CC whilst being slower.

So your arguement from this is...

Guilliman is bad because he's not Tau or Eldar.

Am I reading this right?

It's a known issue that Tau and Eldar are underpriced as anything. But Guilliman fills a different role and manages to do it very well in comparison. The only other things that are in a similar boat in terms of what they're supposed to be doing are, for the sake of argument the Avatar and the Swarmlord.

For one, the closest you can get to the buff bubble that Guilliman is would be the Avatar. Robbie's 100 points more, far more survivable (2+/3++, FNP, Eternal Warrior, the ability to get back up compared to a 3+/5++), provides far, far more utility in his bubble (for one his reroll buff is tablewide and factionwide - the Avatar only affects Craftworlders, not Dark Eldar or Harlies) and, oh yeah, the entire Command Trait tree.

That's right folks, Robbie's 12 inch bubble brings - substituting his own Ld for the units own (on top of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning and Fear checks), forcing enemy units to use their lowest LD in the bubble, Move through Cover, 1 inch extra to running and charging, rerolls of To Hit of 1 for shooting and Assault.

The Avatar gives you...uh...Fearless, Furious Charge and Rage.

I'm not even factoring the Swarmlord into this because...let's be honest. For his points cost the Swarmlord is useless. Sure, he's got a bigger bubble. But...that's really all he has. He has none of the utility of Robbie or the Avatar. He buffs a single unit, they buff ALL of them.

Robbie might seem useless if you're running bike or drop spam. But Robbie in a fireline or advancing forward to be mid-range? Oh lordy. Let's not forget Precision Strikes and Shots with his S6 AP 2 rending heavy bolter. Robbie can happily waddle forward each turn and selectively pick out a heavy weapon, special weapon and character from a unit per turn on his own. Considering the amount of Deathstars that rely on a single tough character soaking the wounds of their ridiculous unit this is....rather brutal.

But here's the kicker.

Robbie can be slapped in the same army as Cawl and Celestine. You have 3 very difficult to take down buffers who are no slouches in combat. Sure, you're looking at 750 points of characters. But my god, one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

And that list instantly loses to Gladius. Good job, Robbie.

EddieJA wrote:
I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I'm just using ++ as an indicator of invuln.

So it's 2+/3++/5+ FNP. With Eternal warrior. And an ability to rez on a 4+ with D3 wounds. Who also rerolls 1s to hit in shooting and assault. With Precision Strikes/Shots.

Really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
And that list instantly loses to Gladius. Good job, Robbie.

Hey, nice ability to read.

one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

Unsurprisingly the 'half the armies in the game' statement doesn't include the Holy Trinity of Tau, Eldar and SM. You're still special snowflakes. Don't worry.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

EddieJA wrote:
I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I'm just using ++ as an indicator of invuln.

So it's 2+/3++/5+ FNP. With Eternal warrior. And an ability to rez on a 4+ with D3 wounds. Who also rerolls 1s to hit in shooting and assault. With Precision Strikes/Shots.

Really.

So he's basically 1.5 stimtides in a riptide wing. Who has to punch things to be dangerous. As many times as I haven't even made it to CC vs Tau and Eldar, I can't feel bad for them about this. Robbie changes nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

EddieJA wrote:
I frequently see people say that Guilliman's invul is 3++. If someone wouldn't mind explaining where that reroll is coming from? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks!

I'm just using ++ as an indicator of invuln.

So it's 2+/3++/5+ FNP. With Eternal warrior. And an ability to rez on a 4+ with D3 wounds. Who also rerolls 1s to hit in shooting and assault. With Precision Strikes/Shots.

Really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
And that list instantly loses to Gladius. Good job, Robbie.

Hey, nice ability to read.

one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

Unsurprisingly the 'half the armies in the game' statement doesn't include the Holy Trinity of Tau, Eldar and SM. You're still special snowflakes. Don't worry.

Gladius doesn't need to remove them to win. That's the point.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Unsurprisingly the 'half the armies in the game' statement doesn't include the Holy Trinity of Tau, Eldar and SM. You're still special snowflakes. Don't worry.

But now you're trying to talk logic instead of emotions, and we all know that's not going to help.

I still think Celestine is most horrifying with SW. She makes them even special snowflakier.

Martel732 wrote:

 Battlegrinder wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Will you ever stop complaining about Riptides in every single thread?

Well, it's an MC. And this guy is an MC. They both have 2+, so the comparison seems unavoidable. We can also compare to DK, if you like.

except the fill totally TOTALLY differant battlefield ROLES. you can't compare the two.

The feth I can't. We are talking about durability/pt here.

Martel732 wrote:
The feth I can't. We are talking about durability/pt here.

Ok. You're now missing the point. (Again).

Robbie is a figurehead buffbot. The closest you will get to him in term of battlefield role and type is the Avatar of Khaine and the Swarmlord.

Robbie outshines those two by such a margin it's not even funny.

Maybe the other two are very poorly designed. The command trait tree isn't really terrifying me.

Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I've been in the same boat vs Riptides for a long time now. I don't see how this model changes anything.

Except a riptide is blasting you with a demolisher cannon (basically) every turn from 60 inch range - in the riptid wing hes doing it twice. The riptide is also a stand alone unit that can do almost everything well. Gurly requires support and hes still only doing 1 thing well - and even then is still not as strong as a wraitknight in CC whilst being slower.

So your arguement from this is...

Guilliman is bad because he's not Tau or Eldar.

Am I reading this right?

It's a known issue that Tau and Eldar are underpriced as anything. But Guilliman fills a different role and manages to do it very well in comparison. The only other things that are in a similar boat in terms of what they're supposed to be doing are, for the sake of argument the Avatar and the Swarmlord.

For one, the closest you can get to the buff bubble that Guilliman is would be the Avatar. Robbie's 100 points more, far more survivable (2+/3++, FNP, Eternal Warrior, the ability to get back up compared to a 3+/5++), provides far, far more utility in his bubble (for one his reroll buff is tablewide and factionwide - the Avatar only affects Craftworlders, not Dark Eldar or Harlies) and, oh yeah, the entire Command Trait tree.

That's right folks, Robbie's 12 inch bubble brings - substituting his own Ld for the units own (on top of rerolling failed Morale, Pinning and Fear checks), forcing enemy units to use their lowest LD in the bubble, Move through Cover, 1 inch extra to running and charging, rerolls of To Hit of 1 for shooting and Assault.

The Avatar gives you...uh...Fearless, Furious Charge and Rage.

I'm not even factoring the Swarmlord into this because...let's be honest. For his points cost the Swarmlord is useless. Sure, he's got a bigger bubble. But...that's really all he has. He has none of the utility of Robbie or the Avatar. He buffs a single unit, they buff ALL of them.

Robbie might seem useless if you're running bike or drop spam. But Robbie in a fireline or advancing forward to be mid-range? Oh lordy. Let's not forget Precision Strikes and Shots with his S6 AP 2 rending heavy bolter. Robbie can happily waddle forward each turn and selectively pick out a heavy weapon, special weapon and character from a unit per turn on his own. Considering the amount of Deathstars that rely on a single tough character soaking the wounds of their ridiculous unit this is....rather brutal.

But here's the kicker.

Robbie can be slapped in the same army as Cawl and Celestine. You have 3 very difficult to take down buffers who are no slouches in combat. Sure, you're looking at 750 points of characters. But my god, one of those is a challenge for half the armies in the game to remove...nevermind all three of them.

My argument is - the riptide is a good unit. To call Gurlyman a good unit you have to messure him up to actually good units. Having ultra marines chapter tactics he basically adds nothing to an ultra marine force (these guys are already called reroll marines for a reason). for 25 more points you can get an IK - which is faster - has more firepower- and in reality might not be as tough but is a much more powerful unit in CC. So if you trying to make a good list - you wont be including gurlyman - you will be including an IK.

Not really. I have no intention of ever using this model, as he's not a BA.

CSM got magnus: a source of D shots that is basically immortal. But I was ALREADY dealing with D shots I can't really kill.

Orks could stand to have quite a few upgrades.

Robbie isn't terrible, he's just not as good as what's already out there in terms of being abusive.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Compare him to a unit of THSS terms. for 350 you can get 9 of them. Thats 9 2+/3++ wounds that move 6 inches. They produce 27 str 8 ap2 attacks on the charge compared to 7 from gurly str 10 ap 1. They can even deep strike to ensure they charge the turn after they arrive - Gurly cant...NOPE people don't take them - because they are terrible units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The feth I can't. We are talking about durability/pt here.

Ok. You're now missing the point. (Again).

Robbie is a figurehead buffbot. The closest you will get to him in term of battlefield role and type is the Avatar of Khaine and the Swarmlord.

Robbie outshines those two by such a margin it's not even funny.

If he gave rage and furious charge to all marines in 12" bubble he would be amazing. He gives reroll 1's to units that already reroll 1's. On turn 3 he might actaully start to buff things...unless the ultra marines brough any kind of formation which gives them even more better rerolls...He's not terrible for an IG gunline - I conceed that much.

They don't buff their units, have no ranged weapons and strike at I1. Furthermore, Roboute can spin to win to get as many attacks as he needs, he might get bogged by single models with good saves, but that's about it.

Only bad thing about him is his movement speed, his 350 points is a bargain for anything else.

Which is easily rectified by a librarian/librarius conclave.

And if you're running UM might as well take one of the best psykers in the game, tigurius

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Not at all. The major issue with Guilliman is that when you compare it to other things SM armies have at their disposal, he's just ok. Space Marines already have an enormous array of excellent units, and Guilliman doesn't stack up that well against things that SM can already do.

He makes way more sense leading a Guard army or something, where he can tank against opponents who would normally be assaulting them. Which is fine by me, honestly.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem.

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Not at all. The major issue with Guilliman is that when you compare it to other things SM armies have at their disposal, he's just ok. Space Marines already have an enormous array of excellent units, and Guilliman doesn't stack up that well against things that SM can already do.

He makes way more sense leading a Guard army or something, where he can tank against opponents who would normally be assaulting them. Which is fine by me, honestly.

But here's the rub.

He can do just that. His rules are written in such a way that any Imperial army can take him as a LoW slot. So his value isn't just being measured against his inclusion in a SM army - he can be put in any Imperial army and as such that buff bubble of his applies to far more than just Marines.

I play SMs and I think Gulliman's a pretty solid unit. the new "decurion" IMHO is better then the gladius IF you're not running a Battle company. as you trade the free rhinos for OS on everything.

he's a tough buff bot for SM that will tank and probably beat back stuff that enters melee. But him being an MC makes him kinda reasonable. Not too op but definetely on the more powerfull side of the spectrum.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

But here's the rub.

He can do just that. His rules are written in such a way that any Imperial army can take him as a LoW slot. So his value isn't just being measured against his inclusion in a SM army - he can be put in any Imperial army and as such that buff bubble of his applies to far more than just Marines.

I don't see the problem?

You seemed to take issues with SM players saying he's not that good. I'm just saying why he's not that good from an SM players perspective. He doesn't synergize well with them unless you're doing something very specific.

I don't have a problem that IG can take him. If' he's great for IG, I don't really have a problem with that.

I still think that in a general sense, a Knight is a better investment for the points, but it probably depends on what you're trying to do with your army.

Edit:
I'll also mention that most of the other units that are in the same realm of points or toughness, often come in multiples. 2 Wraithknights, 2 Knights. It's a good day when your opponent only has one Riptide.

Actually, if I understand his rules, you can only run him with Ultramarines/vanilla SM's, and other Imperial armies only gain access to him through the formation.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Actually, if I understand his rules, you can only run him with Ultramarines/vanilla SM's, and other Imperial armies only gain access to him through the formation.

you understand wrong, his rules state he's a LOW choice for ALL factions. now the obvious question is, can I take him as a LOW choice in say.. an imperial fists CAD given he has chapter tactics Ultramarines

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once again we are seeing Dakka's local SM fanboys crying that Robbie is terrible because he's not Tau or Eldar.

You know, I'm willing to bet if you gave Orks a version of Ghazgkhull that was similarly statted, pointed and had as much a buff bubble you'd be pissing blood that it was OP and needed to be nerfed to the ground.

If you gave a similar buff and statstick to Chaos you'd be up in arms threatening to burn the witch.

But because you got it...it's not a problem

Got it. Bias is a thing here.

Not at all. The major issue with Guilliman is that when you compare it to other things SM armies have at their disposal, he's just ok. Space Marines already have an enormous array of excellent units, and Guilliman doesn't stack up that well against things that SM can already do.

He makes way more sense leading a Guard army or something, where he can tank against opponents who would normally be assaulting them. Which is fine by me, honestly.

But here's the rub.

He can do just that. His rules are written in such a way that any Imperial army can take him as a LoW slot. So his value isn't just being measured against his inclusion in a SM army - he can be put in any Imperial army and as such that buff bubble of his applies to far more than just Marines.

You wanna abuse him in any LoW slot? Take him in an Imperial Knight Household Detachment and turn him into a Super-Heavy Walker thanks to the Lord Baron bonus. Now you've got a Rowboat that's too good.

Breaking 40k aside, I think he's about fairly costed for what he brings. Just like Magnus.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
The ibe I am getting from our die-hard Marine players is:
"He doesnt instantly win me the game on his own so he is underpowered"

I didn't say underpowered. He's obviously better than anything in my codex, but then again, he's an MC, so duh.

I just love the selective outrage, even though MCs have been owning 7th edition all along. There's now one additional Imperial MC. The end is NEAR!

Gotta agree with martel, he is awesome once he sees combat, but until then he is kite-able and ignorable. MSU laughs at him.

Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

Martel732 wrote:
Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

He doesnt need to move masssively and he can already do 11" average on a run, 12.5" on a charge. Sheesh Martel, the guy is literally a massively buffed 30K primarch for less than half the points cost, what more do you want?

Also keep in mind the whole idea of area control. In most objective based games, all you need to do is march Gully onto whatever he's holding, and you've pretty much denied your opponent the objective. Anything that gets Objective Secured is going to get melted by him the moment they step into range. And if you try to just kill him, it's probably going to take a considerable effort from an entire army to move him off of whatever he's guarding.

Someone mentioned DE having issues with Gman - how wrong. Poison works just fine as does dark light.

Even with 3++ and fnp, an MSU DE army can kill him.

Its around 48 lance shots to get through the 3++/fnp 6 wounds and around 160 poison shots for the same.

My DE army would do it in just over 2 rounds of fire with lances but I can easily put 160 poison shots down range turn 1.

And since he cant ride transports and join units, he is easily targetable - and likely one of the few actual targets the venoms will have given all the metal boxes marines like to hide in

 Fafnir wrote:
Also keep in mind the whole idea of area control. In most objective based games, all you need to do is march Gully onto whatever he's holding, and you've pretty much denied your opponent the objective. Anything that gets Objective Secured is going to get melted by him the moment they step into range. And if you try to just kill him, it's probably going to take a considerable effort from an entire army to move him off of whatever he's guarding.

thats another thing worth noting, taken as part of the Victrix detachment, Gulliman has OS. not nesscarily HUGE but a notable thing

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

He doesnt need to move masssively and he can already do 11" average on a run, 12.5" on a charge. Sheesh Martel, the guy is literally a massively buffed 30K primarch for less than half the points cost, what more do you want?

15" is greater than any of those numbers. Plus you have to pay for his enterage more than likely. I'm just not convinced this guy is as abusive as the MCs/GMCs currently in the game. I fear magnus way more than this guy.

 Massaen wrote:
Someone mentioned DE having issues with Gman - how wrong. Poison works just fine as does dark light.

Even with 3++ and fnp, an MSU DE army can kill him.

Its around 48 lance shots to get through the 3++/fnp 6 wounds and around 160 poison shots for the same.

My DE army would do it in just over 2 rounds of fire with lances but I can easily put 160 poison shots down range turn 1.

And since he cant ride transports and join units, he is easily targetable - and likely one of the few actual targets the venoms will have given all the metal boxes marines like to hide in

Ok.

So your DE army pours 2 rounds of firepower into Guilliman.

What do you do about the rest of the Imperial army since you've chosen to ignore them for him? And what do you do when he rolls that 4+ and gets back on to his feet?

Even better, if he's in a Victrix Strike Force, what do you do about the Victrix Guard formation that're also giving him LOS just for standing near them?

I mean, hell, you're assuming you're getting this all off, rolling the right amount of dice, everything is exactly within range and you're taking no casualties in those 2 turns. You're assuming he doesn't deploy in such a way that LoS is blocked for a chunk of your army.

Sorry, but I don't really find your 2 turns approach to be satisfactory in dealing with him.

2 turns focusing solely on him? Assuming he doesn't get lucky with a Fleet Run and assault you Turn 2 and just start deleting your army.

And conveniently forgetting he's providing that bonus inch of assault to the Vanguard Vets accompanying him as well.

2 turns of perfect numbers to deal with something at the cost of dealing with anything else is a sign that you can't really deal with it.


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Martel732 wrote:


15" is greater than any of those numbers. Plus you have to pay for his enterage more than likely. I'm just not convinced this guy is as abusive as the MCs/GMCs currently in the game. I fear magnus way more than this guy.

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

I'll name one for Magnus.

Culexus Assassin. Awfully hard to be a psychic powerhouse when you're channelling warp charge on 6s and your buffs don't stick to you. Sure, you can fly around and be a scary assault monster. But if you're doing that you're basically paying 750 points for something less effective at doing just that than the Bloodthirster that costs half the points

140 pts of Wraiths are probably pretty damn close. But if the CSM kill that assassin, which isn't the craziest thing ever, Magnus is back in business. Hell, can't Magnus just move away from the assassin?

@Darkstarsable - I said 160 poison shots - which I can deliver in a single turn from just my venoms at 1850.

The lance salvos are not practical which I said.

I also said the venoms had very little to do in the first turn while my lances emptied metal boxes that marines bring along oh so often.

If you do run the formation that allows LoS from him - even better as marines on foot die oh so quickly to poison from venoms.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Only bad thing about him is his movement speed, his 350 points is a bargain for anything else.

Which is easily rectified by a librarian/librarius conclave.

And if you're running UM might as well take one of the best psykers in the game, tigurius

Why one of the best, what's better than TIgurius ?


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BrianDavion wrote:
I play SMs and I think Gulliman's a pretty solid unit. the new "decurion" IMHO is better then the gladius IF you're not running a Battle company. as you trade the free rhinos for OS on everything.

They're not Rhinos unless you're shooting yourself in the foot, iirc.


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 Massaen wrote:
Someone mentioned DE having issues with Gman - how wrong. Poison works just fine as does dark light.

Even with 3++ and fnp, an MSU DE army can kill him.

Its around 48 lance shots to get through the 3++/fnp 6 wounds and around 160 poison shots for the same.

My DE army would do it in just over 2 rounds of fire with lances but I can easily put 160 poison shots down range turn 1.

And since he cant ride transports and join units, he is easily targetable - and likely one of the few actual targets the venoms will have given all the metal boxes marines like to hide in

Yes, but your army sucks against everything else.
People saying DE would have a hard time were probably thinking about the less sucky Carnival build.

For the "Guilliman is a Riptide" Argument
Sure both have a 2+/3++ (Nova Charge Riptide)
Sure both are T6
Sure both have FNP (Stim Injector)

But do you know what the Riptide lacks?
ETERNAL
WARRIOR
If lucky, a Force Sword can 1 shot a Riptide
Can a Force Sword 1 Shot Gulliman? NO
Can the Imperial Space Marines "Disintergration Gun" 1 Shot Gulliman? NO

Instant Death is the Bane of MCs, but Because Gulliman has EW, is makes him 10x Tougher

Good luck getting a force sword into combat with a Riptide.

But do you know what the Riptide lacks?
ETERNAL
WARRIOR
If lucky, a Force Sword can 1 shot a Riptide
Can a Force Sword 1 Shot Gulliman? NO
Can the Imperial Space Marines "Disintergration Gun" 1 Shot Gulliman? NO

Why is a Force Sword getting near a Jet Pack Tau MC? Jump Shoot Jump is going to prevent that in most cases... Same with the 18" Disintegration gun.

If instant death were ever a thing that occurred with Riptides on a remotely common basis, I wouldn't mind them as much. Ranged ID basically doesn't exist, and melee? Good luck.

 Massaen wrote:
@Darkstarsable - I said 160 poison shots - which I can deliver in a single turn from just my venoms at 1850.

The lance salvos are not practical which I said.

I also said the venoms had very little to do in the first turn while my lances emptied metal boxes that marines bring along oh so often.

If you do run the formation that allows LoS from him - even better as marines on foot die oh so quickly to poison from venoms.

you actually didn't.

You gave me the statistics for Lances and Poison.

Now you are saying, that you are going to focus fire on transports while your venoms, with their very little to do focus fire on Guilliman. You still do not acknowledge that Line of Sight blocking cover exists, that the formation that grants LoS exists and in an ideal world you might have everything in range...but really, you won't. So you are still spending at least 2 turns shooting at Guilliman, largely because your lances have a pathetically low range and you want to find transports? K. Shoot the drop pods. Wait. You can't.

So you blow your load Turn 1 on Guilliman. Don't kill him - by your own phrasing it will take you 2 turns.

Turn 1 Imperial drop pods land, take out chunks of venoms and lance units. If you were silly enough to move forward so all your venoms could get LoS or take pot shots at Robbie...well, any surviving Vanguard and Robbie are going to jump on them because you were foolish enough to cross the distance for him.

So what we've just witnessed in at least 2-3 venoms getting ripped to shreds in assault, easily another 2-3 more being shot up by drop podding units and your other support units getting the anti-infantry attention.

You've described to us that your best way of dealing with Guilliman is with a terrible army that every other component of a standard Marine army will rip to tiny shreds and the only way you are going to be able to meet your 2 turn deadline is by crossing the distance to ensure you have LoS and range. Which will also kill you because Robbie is deceptively fast especially if you do half the work for him.


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Martel732 wrote:
If instant death were ever a thing that occurred with Riptides on a remotely common basis, I wouldn't mind them as much. Ranged ID basically doesn't exist, and melee? Good luck.

If ranged ID were to exist in any measure it would be the Deathknell of Tyranids unless they went back to 4th ed. EW Synapse.

Just to point out, Papa smurf allows the doctrines to be stacked because it says you can use them each once per game as well as any others you may be able to use, so if your running ultras you can use each ultra doctrine twice. If you're not, you get to use em once each

He doesn't seem to fit either tactically or thematically in a Raven Guard/Raptors army, so.....meh. I guess the ultramarine players will be happy.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

Shooting DE lists with tons of lances or poisoned shots won't win a single competitive game, so they're not an option.

DE can be mid tiers thanks to grotesques, reavers, talos, all assaulting units.

And any list that is assault oriented is almost crippled with guilliman.

Of course he's overpowered, he's a SM new release, he has to be overpowered by definition.

Actually best way to deal with him seems to play objectives and make him assault units that he doesn't want to assault, tarpit him if you can. Actually he always hit on 3s thanks to stupid rules that make WS9 as good as WS5 so 1/3 of his attacks would always be misses. Even with his special attack he won't cause more than 10-12 wounds, a blob of 20-30 infantries can tarpit him for a turn and considering that he's on foot it can be enough.

Unless you have tons of D weapons but 1-2 armies have that, and you probably want those precious shots not to be wasted on a 3+ invuln, 6 wounds dude that can resurrect and absorb too much firepower.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

If a 140 point model is forcing a 750 point model to stay away from it....

That's doin a damn good job in my opinion

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

If a 140 point model is forcing a 750 point model to stay away from it....

That's doin a damn good job in my opinion

That would be true if Magnus was 750 , but "shutting down" it ain't.

Either way I'll stand by my answer to the challenge. A squad of 5 Wraithguard for 160 has better than a 50/50 chance of killing him in a single volley. Guilliman might still get back up, but then he's just down to a 1-3 wounds, and that's a lot easier to handle. Once Magnus is flying, he's a lot harder to do something about.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Name a 140 point unit that can shut down Roboute entirely. Go on.

If a unit of Wraithguard roll a single 6 with their multiple D weapons, Guilliman's gone. That's a 160 point unit.

Mind you that's not "shutting down" Guilliman. That's erasing him. They'll erase Magnus or Guilliman, although at least Magnus can be flying to they'll only be able to fire Snap Shots at him.

While the Culexus is awesome at shutting down Psychic powers that are already in effect, the response by a mobile Psyker is to just get out of the 12" bubble and re-cast. Does it count as "shutting down" if the target can just move (Jump Or Fly) away? I sorta don't think so.

Thats a lot of ifs in order to be effectiv and as soon as not being able to be one-shoted by D weapons becomes the new standard in order to be good, then nearly nothing is good.
On a more serious note that one squad will get 0,555 6s so in order to bring him down you will need at least two squads, so a minimum of 320 points and seeing as they can't walk or else are dead before they arrive they will need x100 points of transports and with that firepower you can kill titans. And even if everything goes completly right and they shoot him down, all of that will be made useless on the roll of a 4+ as he gets back up and murders one of the units.

 Insectum7 wrote:

That would be true if Magnus was 750 , but "shutting down" it ain't.

650. Still bloody good for a 140 point unit that can now be freely included in a super detachment alongside returning SM, AM or Inquisition units.

I just don't see a foot assassin as a realistic counter to an fmc.

Jorim wrote:

Thats a lot of ifs in order to be effectiv and as soon as not being able to be one-shoted by D weapons becomes the new standard in order to be good, then nearly nothing is good.
On a more serious note that one squad will get 0,555 6s so in order to bring him down you will need at least two squads, so a minimum of 320 points and seeing as they can't walk or else are dead before they arrive they will need x100 points of transports and with that firepower you can kill titans. And even if everything goes completly right and they shoot him down, all of that will be made useless on the roll of a 4+ as he gets back up and murders one of the units.

It wasn't my intention to say whether Guilliman was good or not. He's clearly a good unit. (although I probably wouldn't take him in a Space Marine list, as he eats up valuable points in getting to Company Support)

I was just answering the "140 point challenge". Wraithguard happen to be some of the best single-model-killers in the game, but we all knew that.

Guilliman is slow. He can't mount a transport. You can use psykers to throw him around the table, which is what I do for elements of my Chaos army. But my Chaos army also hides it's champions in huge units of guys, which Guilliman also can't do because he's an MC. This makes him more vulnerable to D than lots of other characters. I'm not saying he's bad, not at all. But I'd say it's a fairly big shortcoming in a competitive scene where Wraithknights are more common. I think his value depends more on context than other units. A Similarly costed Knight, for example, is arguably more well rounded, and probably a better buy in most cases.






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 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

That would be true if Magnus was 750 , but "shutting down" it ain't.

650. Still bloody good for a 140 point unit that can now be freely included in a super detachment alongside returning SM, AM or Inquisition units.

Sorta good. It's a 140 point unit that Magnus can just fly away from/avoid. It's also a 140 point unit that's a bit lackluster if the opponent doesn't have psykers.

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

Never mind - ignore

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Especially MSU in free transports that move faster than him.

He doesnt need to move masssively and he can already do 11" average on a run, 12.5" on a charge. Sheesh Martel, the guy is literally a massively buffed 30K primarch for less than half the points cost, what more do you want?

15" is greater than any of those numbers. Plus you have to pay for his enterage more than likely. I'm just not convinced this guy is as abusive as the MCs/GMCs currently in the game. I fear magnus way more than this guy.

Magnus 650 points, you SHOULD fear him more. there is a 300 point differance between them. put into prespective, comparing them is like comparing a dreadnought to an Imperial Knight.

It's interesting to see people talking past each other in this thread.

It's obvious to me that Roboute is a good model and is probably more powerful than is balanced, mostly due to his silly defensive stats. It's equally obvious that there are many more powerful models in the game, because 40K is filled with poorly-designed mistakes.

Wraithknights, Riptides, deathstars, etc., etc. - they're all badly-designed units that are overpowered. Roboute is also overpowered, but not to the degree that those other offenders are. Ideally 40K wouldn't have any of them in their current form and they'd all be redesigned or at least given more appropriate points values.

Just because Roboute isn't the most obnoxious model in the game doesn't mean he isn't obnoxious. The existence of other terrible fun destroyers doesn't mean it's okay to add another fun destroyer to the mix. But because he isn't the most obnoxious model means that there are bigger fish to fry on the game balance front before we get to him.

 Massaen wrote:
Never mind - ignore

But... but... you took the time to post, and it would be incredibly impolite to just ignore you! Please! Share your thoughts! Let us revel in your wisdom, and thus, all be enlightened! Share with us brother!

After hearing that Roboute was making a comeback (but don't call it a comeback!), and cast about looking at the feasibility of making an Ultramarines army. I planned on 1500 out of 2000 points, thinking he would be around 500. Boy, was I wrong on that one! So instead, I have a 1850 army with a very, very good Primarch to anchor it with.

Is he good? Depends. Ask a Deamon player when they throw Skarbrand or some other Greater Deamon on the table how good it is. The answer is, yes*.

*Yes as long as you take the right army to support them, and yes if you play at least somewhat skillfully.

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

At WS 1. Shooting at the Culexus is also at BS 1.

And the thing is? A CSM detachment that heavily features Magnus? Is going to be psyker heavy. It's going to be the Culexus' wet dream of targets he can Instant Death off the face of the board with ease.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

At WS 1. Shooting at the Culexus is also at BS 1.

And the thing is? A CSM detachment that heavily features Magnus? Is going to be psyker heavy. It's going to be the Culexus' wet dream of targets he can Instant Death off the face of the board with ease.

Or use as batteries for his psyocculum.

Not that I'd necessarily pit him against Magnus himself.

 Fafnir wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

At WS 1. Shooting at the Culexus is also at BS 1.

And the thing is? A CSM detachment that heavily features Magnus? Is going to be psyker heavy. It's going to be the Culexus' wet dream of targets he can Instant Death off the face of the board with ease.

Or use as batteries for his psyocculum.

Not that I'd necessarily pit him against Magnus himself.

And that's the thing. It's a single 140 point model.

If it can literally deny a 24 inch bubble from my opponent's 650 point FMC LoW Warlord and force him to the outskirts of the table with powers that average between 18-24" in range then I'd consider that a bloody good investment.

And that's assuming you don't also slot in a small Sisters of Silence detachment (which to be honest might be a decent investment for an Imperial army considering how Psyker heavy Eldar are - especially since their forthcoming book seems to also give them Rhinos).

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

At WS 1. Shooting at the Culexus is also at BS 1.

And the thing is? A CSM detachment that heavily features Magnus? Is going to be psyker heavy. It's going to be the Culexus' wet dream of targets he can Instant Death off the face of the board with ease.

I knew I forgot something. Unfortunately the WS rolls top out at a 5+ to hit, and with Magnus at 6 Attacks and S 8 doubling out the Assassin, chances are Magnus will still pull him in half in a round. Since Magnus can't be ID'd, the Culexus isn't doing too much damage back.

A Culexus is awesome at sniping out support models for sure, although to charge his battery he wants to be near the Chaos army. In which case the best counter is. . . ?

But that's the thing, they're not expecting the assassin to duel magnus in to submission. Just nullify a huge swath of his abilities for cheap.

Which... he does.

Girlyman is a very solid choice.

 Melissia wrote:
But that's the thing, they're not expecting the assassin to duel magnus in to submission. Just nullify a huge swath of his abilities for cheap.

Which... he does.

Girlyman is a very solid choice.

Very solid is exactly how I'd classify him.

 Fafnir wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

I don't know the Culexus rules off the top of my head, but I'd guess that Magnus could just charge him and murder him. Besides being a psyker, Magnus is also a huge monster.

At WS 1. Shooting at the Culexus is also at BS 1.

And the thing is? A CSM detachment that heavily features Magnus? Is going to be psyker heavy. It's going to be the Culexus' wet dream of targets he can Instant Death off the face of the board with ease.

Or use as batteries for his psyocculum.

Not that I'd necessarily pit him against Magnus himself.

Just throw 10 Sisters of Silence at him, as well as an Xenos Inquisitor with Rad and Psychostroke grenades, then laugh as turns into a greasy stain.

He's never on the ground. Same reason my SG can't push around flyrants.

Complete lack of mobility means you depend on psychic powers to move him around, but most tournaments ban AOD so he's easily avoided.

Getting the command traits is rather meh, too. Everything would have to be close to an almost immobile unit to take advantage.

Magnus would vaporize him with D lasers.

 Melissia wrote:
But that's the thing, they're not expecting the assassin to duel magnus in to submission. Just nullify a huge swath of his abilities for cheap.

Which... he does.

I think in the context of an actual game he doesn't do so well against Magnus. Not that he's a bad take, but IMO the most valuable ability of the Culexus, by far, is the ability to shut down active blessings on a deathstar. Against a Bark Star, for example, the Culexus is brilliant. There are lots of primarily CC units that require those blessings to remain safe. Armies that are reliant on those units tend to be CC oriented and have to advance right into the range of the defending Culexus in order to be effective. The Culexus shines in those setups.

I don't think a well played Magnus fights in the same way though, the Culexus does little to protect against multiple D psychic powers. (The beams wont affect him, but they still affect everything around him, for example.)
The fact that Magnus flies is pretty similar to free Invisibility (most weapons only Snap Shot, immune to blasts and templates). Also because he flies, it's easy for him to avoid the Culexus bubble, and cast powers freely. He also has some sideways options available, like forcing the Culexus friendly units to shoot at it. IMO, for Magnus the Culexus is a speedbump.

 Melissia wrote:
Girlyman is a very solid choice.

He's big and slow. I have trouble imagining him in competitive play. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think his damage output is good enough for his points.

As an aside, as a natural Ultramarine player I'm not fond of him philosophically, and the whole big primarch thing is kinda dumb.

As an Imperium thing, I sorta enjoy a mecha-hitler, but that's a little different than how I'd prefer the Space Marine hero image to be. I am totally cool with a mecha-hitler leading Imperial Guard or Sisters, and I loved the old Throne of Judgement model. But as the "scalpel" of Imperial Forces, having a leader that can't embark on a vehicle is kind of obnoxious. (Maybe they can Drop Pod him like a Dreadnought? - thank god they didn't allow it in game)