I often see English inscriptions on Imperial objects. GW is, after all, an English company.
But the Imperium is said to use Gothic. Gothic is said to be
...represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages.
Wouldn't it then be highly incongruous and out of place to see English text?
I think it's almost as bad as accidentally seeing movie mistakes like this:
Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak. Or maybe they put in it english so we can actually read it. You pick.
Mudrat wrote: Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak.
read the OP again
Mudrat wrote: Or maybe they put in it english so we can actually read it.
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Mudrat wrote: Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak.
read the OP again
I'm sorry, but I don't get the difference. There is no guarantee that 38,000 years in the future 'gothic' language is anything like the old german one. For all we know, 40k gothic could be closer to todays Korean. GW writing in english is likely mainly due to their general tendency to avoid doing additional work.
Mudrat wrote: Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak.
read the OP again
I'm sorry, but I don't get the difference. There is no guarantee that 38,000 years in the future 'gothic' language is anything like the old german one. For all we know, 40k gothic could be closer to todays Korean. GW writing in english is likely mainly due to their general tendency to avoid doing additional work.
When you said "in the future English is just called gothic", that confuses people.
Maybe, but we have Ork cuneiform, Eldar sigils, Necron glyphs
Mudrat wrote: Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak.
read the OP again
I'm sorry, but I don't get the difference. There is no guarantee that 38,000 years in the future 'gothic' language is anything like the old german one. For all we know, 40k gothic could be closer to todays Korean. GW writing in english is likely mainly due to their general tendency to avoid doing additional work.
The British Empire took back its strength under the command of a female Aussie "Goth" how said Goth got command is lost to history as is the term "Aussie". Being an Aussie and possessing a very Aussie sense of humour the Goth decreed the conquest to be in the name of "Gothica" and when asked if she would rename the planet as well replied "It's a holey terror". Paper pushers - misunderstanding the Aussie accent, heard and wrote " Holy Terra".
The rest, as they say "is history".
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Yeah, so we can read what it says on an in-universe object.
This is no different from Germans speaking English in some WW2 films. Its just for convenience.
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Yeah, so we can read what it says on an in-universe object.
This is no different from Germans speaking English in some WW2 films. Its just for convenience.
But 40k images should show what they look like in-universe. I don't see them inscribing English on Necron and Eldar things.
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Yeah, so we can read what it says on an in-universe object. This is no different from Germans speaking English in some WW2 films. Its just for convenience.
But 40k images should show what they look like in-universe. I don't see them inscribing English on Necron and Eldar things.
Maybe its because Eldar and Necrons are not human societies using a human language that's supposedly derived from several ancestral human languages. Its hard to call something alien when they are clearly using a familiar text. The Imperium is definitely not alien. Note that for the sake of convenience, aliens speak english / your friendly local language. Their text is still in alien. Like German in WW2 films.
I personally would have preferred necrons to speak exclusively in binary, hex or even ASCII, but that's just me.
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Yeah, so we can read what it says on an in-universe object.
This is no different from Germans speaking English in some WW2 films. Its just for convenience.
But 40k images should show what they look like in-universe. I don't see them inscribing English on Necron and Eldar things.
Maybe its because Eldar and Necrons are not human societies using a human language that's supposedly derived from several ancestral human languages.
Its hard to call something alien when they are clearly using a familiar language. The Imperium is definitely not alien.
Eldar and Necron thought and meanings are not entirely alien to us humans, Eldar and Necron dialogue are commonly found in 40k.
Gothic is said to be unintelligible to English speakers too. Almost like an alien, foreign language.
Besides, they should portray in-universe things as they appear in-universe right?
It would be like visiting a Chinese speaking country, taking photos, and then photoshopping English words onto all the Chinese text.
Besides, they should portray in-universe things as they appear in-universe right?
Since the universe doesn't exist, they can portray it as they see fit. The point of the artwork is to convey an emotional theme or an allusion to European medieval art, culture and sensibilities. The text is part of that. You can't convey much if all the writing is meaningless symbols.
If you insist, just think of it as someone painstakingly going through all the pictures and translating the text into something you can read.
Why should Necrons communicate in our computer codes (you could argue that binary might be "universal", but not hexadecimal and certainly not ASCII)? They're not computers. They should communicate in whatever language they spoke before they were machines. Remember, the whole point of the Necrons is that they adopted machine bodies to achieve immortality, then realised they'd given up their emotions and "souls". They're like Pinocchio, or Data - they want to be living beings again; a thematic opposition to the Adeptus Mechanicus, and a warning which the Mechanicus has failed to understand.
The language of Gothic and High Gothic are portrayed as English and faux Latin respectively to give a sense of how one derived from the other within the 40K universe. There is no indication it is actually English or Latin. It is similar to how in Star Wars, they speak English and they talk of X-Wing fighters, even though they are supposedly speaking Galactic Basic and writing using Aurebesh (which has no letter that looks like X).
GodDamUser wrote: GW once described it more akin to the asian languages
I don't have my copy of the original Rogue Trader (and other books of that era like Book of the Astronomicon) handy at the moment, but I do recall a reference that the language was a very distant descendant of English that had absorbed Asian language influences. Of course over so many thousands of years, it is unrecognizable to English speakers. Ultimately the basic point is that GW use English so that we readers can understand what they read and write, not necessarily what they really use in the 40K universe.
Iracundus wrote: The language of Gothic and High Gothic are portrayed as English and faux Latin respectively to give a sense of how one derived from the other within the 40K universe. There is no indication it is actually English or Latin. It is similar to how in Star Wars, they speak English and they talk of X-Wing fighters, even though they are supposedly speaking Galactic Basic and writing using Aurebesh (which has no letter that looks like X).
First of all, I've made it clear from the get go that I know it is not actually English. C'mon man, you need to read more carefully.
And, Exactly! In Star Wars they write Aurebesh, though there is no such equivalent for the IoM.
Even in Star Wars, "aurebesh" isn't necessarily a different language. It's just a substitution cipher for words written in English (with 8 additional symbols representing common English letter pairs like CH and OO). In the case of numerals, it's not even that - just a fancy font.
But then, Star Wars doesn't use the specific written words to evoke the themes, unlike 40k. In Star Wars, what little written text we see is deliberately alien, to give the sense that the galaxy far, far away is alien The fact that you can't understand what it says is the point (although there are some easter eggs for nerds with patience and a comparison chart). By contrast, the text in 40k is deliberately trying to allude to historical themes; it's the words themselves that are important, not just the shapes of the symbols, and that familiarity is necessary.
Comparing written text in 40k to that in Star Wars misses the point, because the art directors are using it in completely opposite ways.
Besides, they should portray in-universe things as they appear in-universe right?
Since the universe doesn't exist, they can portray it as they see fit.
Well, they did state that English does not appear within their own created universe.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The point of the artwork is to convey an emotional theme or an allusion to European medieval art, culture and sensibilities. The text is part of that. You can't convey much if all the writing is meaningless symbols.
I ask all these interesting questions, and then some people rush to the defense of a status quo that doesn't really exist, and sometimes I really have to doubt whether these people thought about this issue before I asked it, and doubt that they thought about it much before posting.
They have conveyed the allusions through the murals, clothes, objects and architecture, and most importantly, the fluff. They don't need to write English on the objects in-universe in order to convey that, and in fact, you don't often encounter in-universe English writing. Most of the art doesn't have it.
What about Necrons and Eldar? They could spell out "Dynasty" on the Necron structures instead of having fancy glyphs. But Necrons don't use English, and... neither does the Imperium.
In fact, Necron and Eldar glyphs were carefully designed to convey a theme without having to be intelligible.
Why should Necrons communicate in our computer codes (you could argue that binary might be "universal", but not hexadecimal and certainly not ASCII)? They're not computers. They should communicate in whatever language they spoke before they were machines. Remember, the whole point of the Necrons is that they adopted machine bodies to achieve immortality, then realised they'd given up their emotions and "souls". They're like Pinocchio, or Data - they want to be living beings again; a thematic opposition to the Adeptus Mechanicus, and a warning which the Mechanicus has failed to understand.
I'm sorry but I think you're going off topic here.
But then, Star Wars doesn't use the specific written words to evoke the themes, unlike 40k.
In Star Wars, what little written text we see is deliberately alien, to give the sense that the galaxy far, far away is alien The fact that you can't understand what it says is the point (although there are some easter eggs for nerds with patience and a comparison chart).
By contrast, the text in 40k is deliberately trying to allude to historical themes; it's the words themselves that are important, not just the shapes of the symbols, and that familiarity is necessary.
Comparing written text in 40k to that in Star Wars misses the point, because the art directors are using it in completely opposite ways.
An allusion to the historical use of English you say? But to resolve this, we must turn to GW.
Have they ever said that they would deliberately inscribe English in-universe despite specifying that the IoM doesn't use English, and also hereby declaring that they would never come up with a Gothic script?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Andrew, its not like GW has never done scripts for 40k humans before.
The Fenrisians have their runic scripts.
This Word Bearer has Colchisian runes all over his armour:
I'm not really sure what you want from people. We have written on them what is written on them. I think they should stick to using Latin or similar terms in the text but I think being able to read them is a plus also.
Should they not be in English? Probably.
Are they? Yes.
Do most people have a problem with it? Doesn't seem like it.
Where you want to go from there is up to you, I don't really see this as a background conversation rather than a "what's on the models" conversation.
The comment on Necrons as a reply to CthuluIsSpy. What was that about not reading the posts?
Yes, the allusions are conveyed through other elements of the artwork - but the text is an important part of that.
Other races are supposed to be alien. The different writing glyphs are used - like in Star Wars - to denote Otherness. The actual information contained in those "words" is irrelevant. However the setting is from the Imperium's point of view - we're supposed to understand them.
Assuming all the artwork we see is "in-universe photographs" or even in-universe paintings, for that matter), why should we not assume they haven't been edited for clarity, when clearly all the written words have been?
Obviously they haven't come out and stated this in so many words. But why should they? The reasoning is clear. It's simply the same thing as is done whenever someone writes a fantasy or sf novel in a language the readers will understand. Films are almost always made in the language of the country they're made for, regardless of what language the characters would "really" speak (the only exception I can think of from Hoolywood is The Passion of the Christ, filmed in Aramaic and Latin). This is just the same, only the information is conveyed by visual means rather than auditory.
If you really want an answer why, you're going to have to go and ask the artists, but I bet the answer will be roughly what I've said.
Note that the point of displaying those runes is specifically to make them look like some obscure text that the reader can't understand - a bit like Minoan Linear A (although not like cuneiform, which has been deciphered).
I wonder if the cuneiform on the cover of that novel is lifted from an atual historical document, and if so, what it says? Probably someone's tax records.
Mudrat wrote: Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak.
read the OP again
Mudrat wrote: Or maybe they put in it english so we can actually read it.
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Because inscribing a model or image with a made-up futuristic language that's hybridised from all other modern and ancient languages plus a few millennia of development from now would be impossible. They just write in English because everyone can understand English.
Who is to say that the current Latin/Roman characters aren't still used with High Gothic? The characters don't need to change for the Language to be unintelligible to modern English readers.
It's also likely that the pronunciation of characters would have changed over time.
Furthermore, not every word needs to be completely unintelligible for a language for the entire language to be utterly unintelligible.
Now Exterminatus, as an example, is a word that sounds similar to the English word Exterminate that is derived from the Latin Exterminatus... however in 40k Exterminatus means so much more than either of those 2 words. It's a very specific solution that describes the utter annihilation of an entire planet and all life upon it - and in some cases the planet itself. It isn't as broad of a term and in a way it's unintelligible at a glance to an English speaker. Not utterly, but it is but one word out of many. Additionally it might not be pronounced the way we normally hear it. It could - in 'reality' if such a word can be used - sound like garbled nonsense due to 38, 000 years of shifting pronunciations. Just look at the history of English with the great vowel shift. There are many words that we still use today that were pronounced completely differently. Combine that with Asian influences on pronunciation and several libraries worth of word that are probably have their roots in Asian dialects with Anglicised characters and it would make the language utterly unintelligible.
It's also possible the the structure and syntax is alien the English users too. Instead of being Subject-Verb-Object (SVO) it could be OVS, VSO, OSV, etc. or even something completely alien.
So there are a lot of ways it's possible for High Gothic to be utterly incomprehensible to English speakers while still be presented the way it is.
That being said there are many art pieces out there where it will be plain English and faux-Latin in a typically English structure... in those cases it's definitely for both the ease of the audience and the ease of the creator.
Other races are supposed to be alien. The different writing glyphs are used - like in Star Wars - to denote Otherness. The actual information contained in those "words" is irrelevant. However the setting is from the Imperium's point of view - we're supposed to understand them.
But they do write lots of fluff for us to understand the Xenos too.
Then, what about Fenrisians and Colchisians? While runes and cuneiform are based on historical scripts, those that appear in 40k are not meant to intelligible like the in-universe English.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Assuming all the artwork we see is "in-universe photographs" or even in-universe paintings, for that matter), why should we not assume they haven't been edited for clarity, when clearly all the written words have been?
They could, but it'd be really odd, don't you think?
AndrewGPaul wrote: It's simply the same thing as is done whenever someone writes a fantasy or sf novel in a language the readers will understand. Films are almost always made in the language of the country they're made for, regardless of what language the characters would "really" speak (the only exception I can think of from Hoolywood is The Passion of the Christ, filmed in Aramaic and Latin).
And they did say that they do that when writing the fluff.
Can you give me some specific examples of these movies though. Can't think of one at the moment.
AndrewGPaul wrote: If you really want an answer why, you're going to have to go and ask the artists, but I bet the answer will be roughly what I've said.
Alright, I will.
My best guess is that it's just something that has flown under GW's radar for many, many years.
Either they will end up declaring that there is no Gothic script, and no need for one, or they will retcon some gak. Both are highly agreeable to me.
I wish they would do something like Futurama, release a script and let fans figure it out.
The language on the in-universe objects is not actually English or even in the Latin alphabet. The artists just render it as English text so that we can actually read it. It is no use making up a fancy alphabet and language if you want people to be able to understand what it says... The pictures are not actual photographs of something in-universe (that would be quite impossible). They are out of universe drawings that give us an idea how something might look like in-universe. In order to do this in an effective manner, the drawing is abstracted to some degree (as all drawings are) so that the artist may finish it within a reasonable timeframe and so that the audience will fully understand the picture and not be distracted by needless details. For example, on a picture of a Space Marine not every single rivet, scratch or speck of dirt that would be on his armour is going to be drawn. Rendering all text as English to represent Low Gothic, pseudo-Latin to represent High Gothic or runes and cuneiform to represent yet another language is part of this process of abstraction.
Iron_Captain wrote: The language on the in-universe objects is not actually English or even in the Latin alphabet. The artists just render it as English text so that we can actually read it. It is no use making up a fancy alphabet and language if you want people to be able to understand what it says...
The pictures are not actual photographs of something in-universe (that would be quite impossible). They are out of universe drawings that give us an idea how something might look like in-universe. In order to do this in an effective manner, the drawing is abstracted to some degree (as all drawings are) so that the artist may finish it within a reasonable timeframe and so that the audience will fully understand the picture and not be distracted by needless details. For example, on a picture of a Space Marine not every single rivet, scratch or speck of dirt that would be on his armour is going to be drawn. Rendering all text as English to represent Low Gothic, pseudo-Latin to represent High Gothic or runes and cuneiform to represent yet another language is part of this process of abstraction.
But this is sci-fi, people love a fancy alphabet. Wouldn't be too hard for them to "translate" it for us. Besides the words that do appear aren't terribly important.
Iron_Captain wrote: The language on the in-universe objects is not actually English or even in the Latin alphabet. The artists just render it as English text so that we can actually read it. It is no use making up a fancy alphabet and language if you want people to be able to understand what it says...
The pictures are not actual photographs of something in-universe (that would be quite impossible). They are out of universe drawings that give us an idea how something might look like in-universe. In order to do this in an effective manner, the drawing is abstracted to some degree (as all drawings are) so that the artist may finish it within a reasonable timeframe and so that the audience will fully understand the picture and not be distracted by needless details. For example, on a picture of a Space Marine not every single rivet, scratch or speck of dirt that would be on his armour is going to be drawn. Rendering all text as English to represent Low Gothic, pseudo-Latin to represent High Gothic or runes and cuneiform to represent yet another language is part of this process of abstraction.
But this is sci-fi, people love a fancy alphabet. Wouldn't be too hard for them to "translate" it for us. Besides the words that do appear aren't terribly important.
Yeah, I'd love for GW to make fancy alphabets for the Imperium and the xenos (the Eldar in fact have some beginnings of it), but doing that is a lot of work and costs a lot of money. That is why GW isn't likely to be going to do it.
Iron_Captain wrote: The language on the in-universe objects is not actually English or even in the Latin alphabet. The artists just render it as English text so that we can actually read it. It is no use making up a fancy alphabet and language if you want people to be able to understand what it says...
The pictures are not actual photographs of something in-universe (that would be quite impossible). They are out of universe drawings that give us an idea how something might look like in-universe. In order to do this in an effective manner, the drawing is abstracted to some degree (as all drawings are) so that the artist may finish it within a reasonable timeframe and so that the audience will fully understand the picture and not be distracted by needless details. For example, on a picture of a Space Marine not every single rivet, scratch or speck of dirt that would be on his armour is going to be drawn. Rendering all text as English to represent Low Gothic, pseudo-Latin to represent High Gothic or runes and cuneiform to represent yet another language is part of this process of abstraction.
High Gothic does use the Latin/Roman alphabet. It can be seen in the High Gothic inscriptions on holy or official items in the Imperium, such as the Grey Knights Aegis armor and in some Mechanicus iconography.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maximus Bitch wrote: I often see English inscriptions on Imperial objects. GW is, after all, an English company.
But the Imperium is said to use Gothic. Gothic is said to be
...represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages.
Wouldn't it then be highly incongruous and out of place to see English text?
I think it's almost as bad as accidentally seeing movie mistakes like this:
What do you guys think?
There are two variations of Gothic. Low Gothic is the one presented as plain English for the benefit of the player/reader. Low Gothic, which is just a catch-all term for the native languages spoken across the Imperium's many worlds (incorrectly called "dialects" by GW), many of which are just bastardized variations on High Gothic.
What the Imperium calls High Gothic or Tech, is the one usually presented as pseudo-Latin rather than English. Which is fitting, since Latin was one of the component languages of High Gothic.
Iron_Captain wrote: The language on the in-universe objects is not actually English or even in the Latin alphabet. The artists just render it as English text so that we can actually read it. It is no use making up a fancy alphabet and language if you want people to be able to understand what it says...
The pictures are not actual photographs of something in-universe (that would be quite impossible). They are out of universe drawings that give us an idea how something might look like in-universe. In order to do this in an effective manner, the drawing is abstracted to some degree (as all drawings are) so that the artist may finish it within a reasonable timeframe and so that the audience will fully understand the picture and not be distracted by needless details. For example, on a picture of a Space Marine not every single rivet, scratch or speck of dirt that would be on his armour is going to be drawn. Rendering all text as English to represent Low Gothic, pseudo-Latin to represent High Gothic or runes and cuneiform to represent yet another language is part of this process of abstraction.
High Gothic does use the Latin/Roman alphabet. It can be seen in the High Gothic inscriptions on holy or official items in the Imperium, such as the Grey Knights Aegis armor and in some Mechanicus iconography.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maximus Bitch wrote: I often see English inscriptions on Imperial objects. GW is, after all, an English company.
But the Imperium is said to use Gothic. Gothic is said to be
...represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages.
Wouldn't it then be highly incongruous and out of place to see English text?
I think it's almost as bad as accidentally seeing movie mistakes like this:
What do you guys think?
There are two variations of Gothic. Low Gothic is the one presented as plain English for the benefit of the player/reader. Low Gothic, which is just a catch-all term for the native languages spoken across the Imperium's many worlds (incorrectly called "dialects" by GW), many of which are just bastardized variations on High Gothic.
What the Imperium calls High Gothic or Tech, is the one usually presented as pseudo-Latin rather than English. Which is fitting, since Latin was one of the component languages of High Gothic.
But shouldn't we assume that pseudo-Latin is to High Gothic what English is to Low Gothic?
according to Andrew, we should just assume that all in-universe images have been edited with Google Translate, and that is most probably GW's intention, also signalling their intention to never invent a Gothic script.
Iron_Captain wrote: The language on the in-universe objects is not actually English or even in the Latin alphabet. The artists just render it as English text so that we can actually read it. It is no use making up a fancy alphabet and language if you want people to be able to understand what it says...
The pictures are not actual photographs of something in-universe (that would be quite impossible). They are out of universe drawings that give us an idea how something might look like in-universe. In order to do this in an effective manner, the drawing is abstracted to some degree (as all drawings are) so that the artist may finish it within a reasonable timeframe and so that the audience will fully understand the picture and not be distracted by needless details. For example, on a picture of a Space Marine not every single rivet, scratch or speck of dirt that would be on his armour is going to be drawn. Rendering all text as English to represent Low Gothic, pseudo-Latin to represent High Gothic or runes and cuneiform to represent yet another language is part of this process of abstraction.
But this is sci-fi, people love a fancy alphabet. Wouldn't be too hard for them to "translate" it for us. Besides the words that do appear aren't terribly important.
Yeah, I'd love for GW to make fancy alphabets for the Imperium and the xenos (the Eldar in fact have some beginnings of it), but doing that is a lot of work and costs a lot of money. That is why GW isn't likely to be going to do it.
Making an alphabet is expensive?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ceann wrote: I'm not really sure what you want from people. We have written on them what is written on them. I think they should stick to using Latin or similar terms in the text but I think being able to read them is a plus also.
Should they not be in English? Probably.
Are they? Yes.
Do most people have a problem with it? Doesn't seem like it.
Where you want to go from there is up to you, I don't really see this as a background conversation rather than a "what's on the models" conversation.
Well it wouldn't be a background problem had GW made their intentions clear. Which is why I contacted them.
Anyway, don't you find it incongruous for them to Google Camera Translate their own universe?
Mudrat wrote: Maybe 38,000 years in the future English is just called gothic. High gothic is the proper british speak, and low gothic is american/aussie/football ooligan speak.
read the OP again
Mudrat wrote: Or maybe they put in it english so we can actually read it.
They do. But to inscribe it on an in-universe object?
Because inscribing a model or image with a made-up futuristic language that's hybridised from all other modern and ancient languages plus a few millennia of development from now would be impossible. They just write in English because everyone can understand English.
but its not impossible if its made up. why is it impossible? its just imagination
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: That being said there are many art pieces out there where it will be plain English and faux-Latin in a typically English structure... in those cases it's definitely for both the ease of the audience and the ease of the creator.
Not for the Orks, Eldar or Necrons though. I find it incongruous to use "Google Translate Camera" on all the Gothic text. Could be done. but just incongruous.
At the same time though the Eldar Orks and Necrons scripts aren't languages either. Eldar is probably the closest and it's still far from properly resembling an actual language.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: At the same time though the Eldar Orks and Necrons scripts aren't languages either. Eldar is probably the closest and it's still far from properly resembling an actual language.
They are supposed to represent languages though. Because, its really not that important to have words in "pict captures". Xenos picts manage fine. Most Imperial picts don't contain text.
The symbols are supposed to represent a setting that is foreign to us 21st century humans. Gothic is described as foreign too, but it is not depicted as such. In fact, you could say that it is not depicted at all.
which is, by all reasonable means, rather incongruous.
About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.
Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.
So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.
This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.
Lord Perversor wrote: About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.
Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.
So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.
This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.
Eh, this thread isn't about the differences between High & Low Gothic.
Lord Perversor wrote: About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.
Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.
So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.
This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.
Eh, this thread isn't about the differences between High & Low Gothic.
Was just a point about why there is English or Latin at the products just as a way to convey an idea while still offering some comprehension behind the text.
Most current example of how Gothic may sound way be the way Belters speak in the Expanse,
Lord Perversor wrote: About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.
Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.
So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.
This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.
Eh, this thread isn't about the differences between High & Low Gothic.
Was just a point about why there is English or Latin at the products just as a way to convey an idea while still offering some comprehension behind the text.
Most current example of how Gothic may sound way be the way Belters speak in the Expanse,
My point was about why not GW increase the immersion by not putting English text in the pictures.
It doesn't matter in we can't comprehend what it written in Xenos art because they are meant to feel alien.
Humanity is meant to feel somewhat familiar so we can empathise with them even though their society is almost completely alien too us. Making it impossible to even understand any inscriptions and the like in the artwork would remove that connection, leaving it to "well, we're both the same species I guess...".
It doesn't matter in we can't comprehend what it written in Xenos art because they are meant to feel alien.
Humanity is meant to feel somewhat familiar so we can empathise with them even though their society is almost completely alien too us. Making it impossible to even understand any inscriptions and the like in the artwork would remove that connection, leaving it to "well, we're both the same species I guess...".
I feel that having a Gothic script would be more immersive, it wouldn't be incongruous. Lots of settings have it. LOTR, TES. These are the medieval ones. In many space ones they have it for humans too.
I love the use of Latin and English in the Imperium. It is one of the key elements that gives the Imperium such a distinctive flavour.
I have always understood that Low Gothic was English and High Gothic was Latin. Do we have any modern sources to say that when a character is speaking English, they are instead speaking another language unintelligible to us? People always seem to reference Rogue Trader which had quite a lot of odd-ball fluff that hasn't been carried forward as the setting was progressed.
Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...
Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.
In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.
Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...
Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.
In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.
For LOTR and TES, I'm just referring to the scripts, not the speech.
well, they use English because its for an English-speaking audience, and the Latin is to make it sound posh.
I'm just wondering if they could put some Gothic inscriptions on the in-universe objects. They could do that and still write the fluff in English and pseudo-Latin right?
Unless you're telling me that you totally loathe the idea of any Gothic inscriptions and you must have English carved on all the objects. I've also pointed out that there are Colchisian cuneiform and glyphs.
The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).
Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.
Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!
Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.
Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.
The same BL person (Marc Gascoigne) that claimed there was no such thing as canon was also the one that claimed there would never ever be any novels or stories from an alien POV.
Given how there is the Dark Eldar trilogy by Andy Chambers, the Eldar Valedor novel, a couple Eldar audioplays also by Gav Thorpe, the Asurmen novel by Gav Thorpe, and the upcoming Jain Zarr novel by Gav Thorpe, I think we can safely say that Marc is discredited.
... Or the editorial direction changed. It was true when he said it, but things change. In any case, less than a dozen publications is a blip on the radar.
AndrewGPaul wrote: ... Or the editorial direction changed. It was true when he said it, but things change. In any case, less than a dozen publications is a blip on the radar.
He's still right about the canon thing, though.
No he isn't. 40K clearly has a canon in operation even if they don't use that term. A rose by any other name is still a rose. A loose canon compared to some other universes, but the fact that there are stable "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE" facts about the universe is the definition of a canon. Space Marines exist. Bolters fire bolts. Horus existed and rebelled. The fact there may be some mistakes, contradictions, or retcons does not in itself mean there is no canon. It means the canon is imperfect but then so is just about every other IP property.
See this following quote from Gav Thorpe on his website about submitting to BL:
Approved submissions get notified, and we work out the next step. Usually this is “Await our instructions”, but it could be specific feedback like “You’ve not quite got the dialogue for Space Marines right, please make more formal” or “This isn’t how the warp works, please check the 40k rulebook” or “Would this not be better from the Tau point of view?” At this stage we are inviting the submitter to tweak their work to make up for what we see as its weak points.
The fact that aspiring writers sending in submissions to BL have to adhere to certain standards and facts about the 40K universe show there is an operating canon. If the editors can say "This isn't how the warp works" (i.e. "You've got it wrong") shows it is not anything goes, and those limits are what canon is.
Marc Gascoigne was simply wrong about this just as he was wrong about the supposed impossibility of writing from a xenos POV (which was the supposed rationale for the "Human POV only" BL policy). The fact there are now multiple works in which there are xenos POV show it is not the impossibility he thought it was. There are far more than a dozen examples if one includes the xenos POV parts in human protagonist POV novels in addition to the pure xenos POV novels.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).
Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.
Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!
Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.
AndrewGPaul wrote: ... Or the editorial direction changed. It was true when he said it, but things change. In any case, less than a dozen publications is a blip on the radar.
He's still right about the canon thing, though.
No he isn't. 40K clearly has a canon in operation even if they don't use that term. A rose by any other name is still a rose. A loose canon compared to some other universes, but the fact that there are stable "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE" facts about the universe is the definition of a canon. Space Marines exist. Bolters fire bolts. Horus existed and rebelled. The fact there may be some mistakes, contradictions, or retcons does not in itself mean there is no canon. It means the canon is imperfect but then so is just about every other IP property.
See this following quote from Gav Thorpe on his website about submitting to BL:
Approved submissions get notified, and we work out the next step. Usually this is “Await our instructions”, but it could be specific feedback like “You’ve not quite got the dialogue for Space Marines right, please make more formal” or “This isn’t how the warp works, please check the 40k rulebook” or “Would this not be better from the Tau point of view?” At this stage we are inviting the submitter to tweak their work to make up for what we see as its weak points.
The fact that aspiring writers sending in submissions to BL have to adhere to certain standards and facts about the 40K universe show there is an operating canon. If the editors can say "This isn't how the warp works" (i.e. "You've got it wrong") shows it is not anything goes, and those limits are what canon is.
Loose canon is one in which there is much looser and less rigorous oversight compared to a tight canon. The old Star Wars EU was an example of a rather tight canon, with a lot more checking of continuity and detail. GW and BL are much looser and I doubt they would spot or care overly much about minor continuity errors, but they still would care if a writer tried to write that the Emperor and Space Marines never ever existed, or that bolters shot laser beams.
However whether loose or tight, whether riddled with errors or airtight, the fact is there is a de facto canon in operation for virtually all IPs. Some might call it the internal consistency or internal logic of the fictional work. Readers might suspend disbelief for certain things (like magic or superpowers in a fantasy or superhero work for example) but the authors generally still have to adhere to the rules and boundaries established when they first created the fictional universe.
Loose canon is one in which there is much looser and less rigorous oversight compared to a tight canon. The old Star Wars EU was an example of a rather tight canon, with a lot more checking of continuity and detail. GW and BL are much looser and I doubt they would spot or care overly much about minor continuity errors, but they still would care if a writer tried to write that the Emperor and Space Marines never ever existed, or that bolters shot laser beams.
However whether loose or tight, whether riddled with errors or airtight, the fact is there is a de facto canon in operation for virtually all IPs. Some might call it the internal consistency or internal logic of the fictional work. Readers might suspend disbelief for certain things (like magic or superpowers in a fantasy or superhero work for example) but the authors generally still have to adhere to the rules and boundaries established when they first created the fictional universe.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).
Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.
Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!
Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.
AndrewGPaul wrote: It's simply the same thing as is done whenever someone writes a fantasy or sf novel in a language the readers will understand. Films are almost always made in the language of the country they're made for, regardless of what language the characters would "really" speak (the only exception I can think of from Hoolywood is The Passion of the Christ, filmed in Aramaic and Latin).
And they did say that they do that when writing the fluff.
Can you give me some specific examples of these movies though. Can't think of one at the moment.
As for off-topic, I'm not sure you can control that, I'm afraid. You start the topic off, and then it's like riding a bronco - it goes where it goes, and you just hang on.
AndrewGPaul wrote: The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).
Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.
Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!
Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.
Are you replying to me?
Yes. You asked for examples, in a previous post
Oh, that was so far back.
Ok, take Exodus:Gods and Kings for example. Its set in Ancient Egypt with an English-speaking cast. Yet, I think audiences would be appalled if the hieroglyphs on the walls were replaced with English!
Same goes for Prince of Persia.
I can't remember, but I think LOTR did feature some English text though. I'm not sure about Allo Allo, but its not serious haha.
What source do you have that High/low Gothic isn't written with the Latin alphabet?
As I mentioned before, I only hear people cite old Rogue Trader fluff In regard to this. But Rogue Trader has lots of old fluff that cannot really be considered part of modern 40k.
GodDamUser wrote: I think your issue here, is that you are comparing something where there is already an established language, with a completely made up one.
The issue is also that Imperial Gothic isn't consistent throughout the Galaxy.. Even High Gothic has variation depending on where you are
An alternate setting is an alternate setting. I mean, most people can't read hieroglyphs either. I don't think its highly necessary to be able to understand the words within a picture, and not using English definitely increases the amount of immersion.
Well, the Roman alphabet spread throughout its empire and is now the dominant script in the world. When China's "God-Emperor" Qin won his unification wars, he made all of China use one script. As Islam spread throughout the western half of Asia and through Africa, so did the Arabic script.
So though Gothic might not be the same everywhere, they might all use the same script.
What source do you have that High/low Gothic isn't written with the Latin alphabet?
As I mentioned before, I only hear people cite old Rogue Trader fluff In regard to this. But Rogue Trader has lots of old fluff that cannot really be considered part of modern 40k.
Well, Low Gothic is very different from English, and High Gothic is very different from Latin or pseudo Latin.
So if they were written with the Roman Alphabet, they would be totally different words.
"Mechanicus" might become "Wiodpfssrt". No longer the same.
GodDamUser wrote: I think your issue here, is that you are comparing something where there is already an established language, with a completely made up one.
The issue is also that Imperial Gothic isn't consistent throughout the Galaxy.. Even High Gothic has variation depending on where you are
An alternate setting is an alternate setting. I mean, most people can't read hieroglyphs either. I don't think its highly necessary to be able to understand the words within a picture, and not using English definitely increases the amount of immersion.
Well, the Roman alphabet spread throughout its empire and is now the dominant script in the world. When China's "God-Emperor" Qin won his unification wars, he made all of China use one script. As Islam spread throughout the western half of Asia and through Africa, so did the Arabic script.
So though Gothic might not be the same everywhere, they might all use the same script.
What source do you have that High/low Gothic isn't written with the Latin alphabet?
As I mentioned before, I only hear people cite old Rogue Trader fluff In regard to this. But Rogue Trader has lots of old fluff that cannot really be considered part of modern 40k.
Well, Low Gothic is very different from English, and High Gothic is very different from Latin or pseudo Latin.
So if they were written with the Roman Alphabet, they would be totally different words.
"Mechanicus" might become "Wiodpfssrt". No longer the same.
I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin
Deadshot wrote: I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin
It is also known as Aquila armour.
I say pseudo-Latin because GW doesn't use accurate latin, because they don't know and they know most of their audience doesn't either, and they're not too serious about that.
According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."
Deadshot wrote: I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin
It is also known as Aquila armour.
I say pseudo-Latin because GW doesn't use accurate latin, because they don't know and they know most of their audience doesn't either, and they're not too serious about that.
According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."
I don't have the original sources though.
The wikias aren't 100% accurate - there's a good chance that it's not supported in canon, and is instead a leap of logic by the author of the article.
If there's a BL source for that, I'd happily accept it.
Deadshot wrote: I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin
It is also known as Aquila armour.
I say pseudo-Latin because GW doesn't use accurate latin, because they don't know and they know most of their audience doesn't either, and they're not too serious about that.
According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."
I don't have the original sources though.
The wikias aren't 100% accurate - there's a good chance that it's not supported in canon, and is instead a leap of logic by the author of the article.
If there's a BL source for that, I'd happily accept it.
So you believe that the "real" High Gothic is exactly pseudo-Latin?
From the wikia " it is represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages. "
Maximus Bitch wrote: According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."
I don't have the original sources though.
The original source for that is the original Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader rulebook. Is it still canon? It is ff you want.
Maximus Bitch wrote: According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."
I don't have the original sources though.
The original source for that is the original Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader rulebook. Is it still canon? It is ff you want.
Bottle is asserting that people in 40K do actually speak English.
Maximus Bitch wrote: Ok, take Exodus:Gods and Kings for example. Its set in Ancient Egypt with an English-speaking cast. Yet, I think audiences would be appalled if the hieroglyphs on the walls were replaced with English!
No more appalled than they were at having to watch it. If the "text" of the hieroglyphs were relevant to the film, it would have been, though. We're back to the way alien races' written texts are displayed. Heiroglyphs in that movie were just set dressing; no-one was expected to read them. Unlike the depictions of written Imperial text , where the actual information content is just as important as having gothic squiggles on the page.
Why did BL discourage it?
No idea. The Imperium has always been the point of view for the entire setting. Probably because we can understand their thinking because we're humans. With aliens, being able to understand them runs the risk of them simply feeling like humans in rubber masks, rather than properly alien psychologies.
If it's Earth, why call it "Terra"? It's called "gothic" to invoke a theme. If there is anything beyond Rogue Trader as a source that states it is not English and Psuedo-Latin I will happily concede the point, but even if the spoken language is completely different it doesn't mean the scripts can't be the same (and even the words). Cantonese and Manadarin are both written in the same written language but are spoken aloud differently as far as I understand, so it could be like that. There are so many examples of English and Pseudo-Latin words appearing in the artwork/on miniatures there is a strong case that the languages written are at least English and Psuedo-Latin even if the spoken languages differ.
Maximus Bitch wrote: Ok, take Exodus:Gods and Kings for example. Its set in Ancient Egypt with an English-speaking cast. Yet, I think audiences would be appalled if the hieroglyphs on the walls were replaced with English!
No more appalled than they were at having to watch it. If the "text" of the hieroglyphs were relevant to the film, it would have been, though. We're back to the way alien races' written texts are displayed. Heiroglyphs in that movie were just set dressing; no-one was expected to read them. Unlike the depictions of written Imperial text , where the actual information content is just as important as having gothic squiggles on the page.
Why did BL discourage it?
No idea. The Imperium has always been the point of view for the entire setting. Probably because we can understand their thinking because we're humans. With aliens, being able to understand them runs the risk of them simply feeling like humans in rubber masks, rather than properly alien psychologies.
Most of the words in Imperial picts are just decorative too
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Bottle wrote: If it's Earth, why call it "Terra"? It's called "gothic" to invoke a theme. If there is anything beyond Rogue Trader as a source that states it is not English and Psuedo-Latin I will happily concede the point
Cos Earth is Low Gothic and Terra is High Gothic. But they don't actually speak English anyway! Canon remains until it is retconned.
Bottle wrote: even if the spoken language is completely different it doesn't mean the scripts can't be the same (and even the words). Cantonese and Manadarin are both written in the same written language but are spoken aloud differently as far as I understand, so it could be like that. There are so many examples of English and Pseudo-Latin words appearing in the artwork/on miniatures there is a strong case that the languages written are at least English and Psuedo-Latin even if the spoken languages differ.
Nah, I am okay. I am happy to keep thinking High Gothic is Pseudo-Latin and low gothic is English. All the artwork and miniatures support this, and it is cool and atmospheric.
If someone shows me a modern source, I will happily concede but I have no pressing desire to go through the entire 5th edition rule book to find otherwise.
40k is the Dark Ages in space. 30k is Antiquity in space. I mean, if you're not happy about them speaking Latin, are you happy with them plastering themselves in Romanesque iconography, symbols and heraldry, that building are based off Roman architecture (for example the Ultramarines), or do you think that is all rendered into things familiar to us too and in actual fact they are dressed wildly different in buildings made of bizarre shapes and materials?
Bottle wrote: Nah, I am okay. I am happy to keep thinking High Gothic is Pseudo-Latin and low gothic is English. All the artwork and miniatures support this, and it is cool and atmospheric.
If someone shows me a modern source, I will happily concede but I have no pressing desire to go through the entire 5th edition rule book to find otherwise.
40k is the Dark Ages in space. 30k is Antiquity in space. I mean, if you're not happy about them speaking Latin, are you happy with them plastering themselves in Romanesque iconography, symbols and heraldry, that building are based off Roman architecture (for example the Ultramarines), or do you think that is all rendered into things familiar to us too and in actual fact they are dressed wildly different in buildings made of bizarre shapes and materials?
No, that's not what I meant. I meant, why inscribe English when they can inscribe something cooler and something that is actually part of the setting.
Maximus Bitch wrote: Most of the words in Imperial picts are just decorative too
Exactly. the words are the important element - i.e. the semantic meaning represented by the squiggles on the page, not simply the squiggles themselves. You need to be able to understand, not just see the words to get the complete effect.
Maximus Bitch wrote: Most of the words in Imperial picts are just decorative too
Exactly. the words are the important element - i.e. the semantic meaning represented by the squiggles on the page, not simply the squiggles themselves. You need to be able to understand, not just see the words to get the complete effect.
Bottle wrote: There's nothing cooler and it is just as much part of the setting as all the Roman columns and iconography.
Nothing cooler?
I mean, we use roman letters everyday.
This is a good example. The Latin on the stairs looks all kinds of awesome. What would you rather have written there? Nothing could be cooler. Obviously this is contextual. There are other instances when runes or symbols look cooler, but for displaying the crumbling ruin of the Imperium, Latin fits best.
Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...
Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.
In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.
For LOTR and TES, I'm just referring to the scripts, not the speech.
well, they use English because its for an English-speaking audience, and the Latin is to make it sound posh.
I'm just wondering if they could put some Gothic inscriptions on the in-universe objects. They could do that and still write the fluff in English and pseudo-Latin right?
Unless you're telling me that you totally loathe the idea of any Gothic inscriptions and you must have English carved on all the objects. I've also pointed out that there are Colchisian cuneiform and glyphs.
Actually, In LotR they also use the Latin alphabet to represent Westron (Common Speech). TES also has almost all of its writing in the Latin alphabet, unless it is in a foreign language (Daedric or Dragon-tongue) or you set the game's language to Russian (in which case everything will be in the Cyrillic alphabet). The only work of fantasy or science fiction that doesn't use the Latin Alphabet to represent the 'normal' language of the protagonists is Star Wars afaik.
Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...
Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.
In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.
For LOTR and TES, I'm just referring to the scripts, not the speech.
well, they use English because its for an English-speaking audience, and the Latin is to make it sound posh.
I'm just wondering if they could put some Gothic inscriptions on the in-universe objects. They could do that and still write the fluff in English and pseudo-Latin right?
Unless you're telling me that you totally loathe the idea of any Gothic inscriptions and you must have English carved on all the objects. I've also pointed out that there are Colchisian cuneiform and glyphs.
Actually, In LotR they also use the Latin alphabet to represent Westron (Common Speech).
TES also has almost all of its writing in the Latin alphabet, unless it is in a foreign language (Daedric or Dragon-tongue) or you set the game's language to Russian (in which case everything will be in the Cyrillic alphabet).
The only work of fantasy or science fiction that doesn't not use the Latin Alphabet to represent the 'normal' language of the protagonists is Star Wars afaik.
Hmm yes I'm aware of that.
So far there hasn't been a need to read stuff in 40k
Bottle wrote: If it's Earth, why call it "Terra"? It's called "gothic" to invoke a theme. If there is anything beyond Rogue Trader as a source that states it is not English and Psuedo-Latin I will happily concede the point, but even if the spoken language is completely different it doesn't mean the scripts can't be the same (and even the words). Cantonese and Manadarin are both written in the same written language but are spoken aloud differently as far as I understand, so it could be like that. There are so many examples of English and Pseudo-Latin words appearing in the artwork/on miniatures there is a strong case that the languages written are at least English and Psuedo-Latin even if the spoken languages differ.
Rogue Trader fluff is still valid as long as it hasn't been superseded by more modern fluff. Much of the foundations of 40k fluff come from Rogue Trader.
If you want to read some more modern fluff about the languages of the Imperium, there is some information in the roleplaying sourcebooks altough that says nothing on their origin.
Regardless, common sense dictates that after 40000 years, English and Latin can no longer exist, at least not in a form we could possibly recognise. It is common knowledge that languages change rapidly over time.
The English of 1000 years ago is completely unintelligible to modern English. If a 1000 years changes a language like that, than what will 40000 years do?
Furthermore, Low Gothic isn't English because it is Low Gothic. If it had been English it would have been called English. A language's name for itself is one of the few things that doesn't change. Furthermore, pseudo-Latin is not High Gothic because High Gothic is supposed to be a functional language, and the pseudo-Latin that GW uses is not a language at all but rather unconnected strings of words.
Of course, the Imperium could very well be using the Latin alphabet. Writing systems tend to be used across multiple languages, making them far more lasting than the languages themselves. But they would use the Latin Alphabet to write Low and High Gothic, not English or Latin.
Bottle wrote: All the miniatures and art with English and Psuedo-Latin say otherwise. 40k doesn't have to be a plausible far future setting.
Names of languages can change, the Korean language was first called 훈민정음 (humminjeongeom) and is now called 한글 (Hangul).
Your last point I can agree with.
English and Pseudo-Latin are only used to represent Low and High Gothic. So what is it that they would say otherwise?
40k does have to be plausible enough not to break the willing suspension of disbelief. Therefore we assume that unless otherwise noted (such as with the Warp) the 40k universe is governed by the same fundamental laws as our universe. Otherwise you might as well start denying gravity exists in 40k or that humans in 40k need to use the bathroom.
Also, my knowledge of Korea and Korean is unfortunately limited, but as far as I know Hangul is the name of a writing system and Humminjeongeom is the name of the document in which this writing system was published. Neither of them are languages. Afaik, the Koreans call their language Hanguk-eo.
Bottle wrote: All the miniatures and art with English and Psuedo-Latin say otherwise. 40k doesn't have to be a plausible far future setting.
Names of languages can change, the Korean language was first called 훈민정음 (humminjeongeom) and is now called 한글 (Hangul).
Your last point I can agree with.
English and Pseudo-Latin are only used to represent Low and High Gothic. So what is it that they would say otherwise?
40k does have to be plausible enough not to break the willing suspension of disbelief. Therefore we assume that unless otherwise noted (such as with the Warp) the 40k universe is governed by the same fundamental laws as our universe. Otherwise you might as well start denying gravity exists in 40k or that humans in 40k need to use the bathroom.
Also, my knowledge of Korea and Korean is unfortunately limited, but as far as I know Hangul is the name of a writing system and Humminjeongeom is the name of the document in which this writing system was published. Neither of them are languages. Afaik, the Koreans call their language Hanguk-eo.
Fair enough, I thought we were including written languages in the names of languages never changing. It was originally named after the document, and held that name for 400 years before being renamed. If we are just going for spoken languages then both South Korea and North Korea have different names for the same language - but this is getting off topic.
If you think that Low Gothic is not English, I would like to know where you draw the line. Are the names of characters the real names or are they too representations of the new language they are speaking? If they are the real names, then we have characters like Lion El'Johnson who is also known as the "The Lion". Presumably the word lion would be something else, but then why would Lion El'Johnson be known as "The Lion" if the word for lion was something different. Or is it all a big coincidence that his name and nickname are identical?
Talking about suspension of disbelief, people are fine that 40'000 years in the future people build Romanesque buildings, use Romanesque architecture, cover themselves in iconography that resembles Roman iconography, structures their military in a similar way etc etc etc but when they also speak like Romans, that's it? The line too far and all suspension of belief is lost? It seems odd to me, why does language have to be held to such strict standards but other aspects of culture not?
From the wikia " it is represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages. "
I'll try to get the direct source.
If its English, why call it Low Gothic?
Becase its 38000 years in the future and our words for everything is completely different; Activation Runes instead of buttons, pict feed instead of video, etc
From the wikia " it is represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages. "
I'll try to get the direct source.
If its English, why call it Low Gothic?
Becase its 38000 years in the future and our words for everything is completely different; Activation Runes instead of buttons, pict feed instead of video, etc
So you also believe that Low Gothic is actually English?
In all honesty Low Gothic isn't even a single unified language. It's simply represented in english for ease of portrayal. Many low gothic speakers from different planets can't even communicate with each other.
High gothic by comparison is the language of bureaucracy, akin to Latin in the Catholic church or the Late Roman Empire. Used simply to help reduce miscommunications for those from different parts of the empire. Eventually getting an almost religious status.
The whole reason High Gothic uses pseudo-Latin as it's representation is to help give a sense of familiarity but ultimately giving a sense it's a dead language for day to day speech. So only those who are highly educated will recognise it's in depth reasoning.
The use of plain English is jarring to me only on certain models. For example, the "Wrath of Caliban" inscription on the Ravenwing Command Champion's sword just looks too straight forward and contemporary. But personally it's a matter of typeset and design more than which language's characters they're using.
Bottle wrote: If you think that Low Gothic is not English, I would like to know where you draw the line. Are the names of characters the real names or are they too representations of the new language they are speaking? If they are the real names, then we have characters like Lion El'Johnson who is also known as the "The Lion". Presumably the word lion would be something else, but then why would Lion El'Johnson be known as "The Lion" if the word for lion was something different. Or is it all a big coincidence that his name and nickname are identical?
Of course it is not a coincidence, but in-universe it could very well be. But it could also be that the word for lion in the language of Caliban coincidentally is the same as the one in english (those things happen) or that the people of Caliban spoke a language that is directly descended from English in which some words have not changed.
Bottle wrote: Talking about suspension of disbelief, people are fine that 40'000 years in the future people build Romanesque buildings, use Romanesque architecture, cover themselves in iconography that resembles Roman iconography, structures their military in a similar way etc etc etc but when they also speak like Romans, that's it? The line too far and all suspension of belief is lost? It seems odd to me, why does language have to be held to such strict standards but other aspects of culture not?
That is a good question. I think it is because language changes much more rapidly than many other aspects of cultures. Languages can change entirely in the span of just a few hundred years. In the present day, we still build Romanesque buildings and draw on the Romans for inspiration on lots of things. We have been building Roman-style buildings for 2000 years, yet we do no longer speak or write in Latin. Nowadays, Roman influences can be found all over the world, even in areas that never had contact with the Romans such as Japan. But while the Japanese may build Roman-style buildings, they do not speak Latin. Things like architecture are more easily transferred between different cultures than language. In 2000 years from now they will likely still build large monumental buildings in the Roman style, but I am pretty sure they won't be speaking Latin. I think that is why language is held to stricter standard in this regard. Because it changes so much, people expect it to change. Therefore, when a language doesn't change, it seems weird. Something like the influence and appeal of Roman styles on the other hand seem eternal because they are so old and unchanging. Therefore people do not regard it as weird to see them in a future setting, even though it would make sense that after 40000 years no one actually remembers the Romans.
Bottle wrote: If you think that Low Gothic is not English, I would like to know where you draw the line. Are the names of characters the real names or are they too representations of the new language they are speaking? If they are the real names, then we have characters like Lion El'Johnson who is also known as the "The Lion". Presumably the word lion would be something else, but then why would Lion El'Johnson be known as "The Lion" if the word for lion was something different. Or is it all a big coincidence that his name and nickname are identical?
Of course it is not a coincidence, but in-universe it could very well be. But it could also be that the word for lion in the language of Caliban coincidentally is the same as the one in english (those things happen) or that the people of Caliban spoke a language that is directly descended from English in which some words have not changed.
Bottle wrote: Talking about suspension of disbelief, people are fine that 40'000 years in the future people build Romanesque buildings, use Romanesque architecture, cover themselves in iconography that resembles Roman iconography, structures their military in a similar way etc etc etc but when they also speak like Romans, that's it? The line too far and all suspension of belief is lost? It seems odd to me, why does language have to be held to such strict standards but other aspects of culture not?
That is a good question. I think it is because language changes much more rapidly than many other aspects of cultures. Languages can change entirely in the span of just a few hundred years. In the present day, we still build Romanesque buildings and draw on the Romans for inspiration on lots of things. We have been building Roman-style buildings for 2000 years, yet we do no longer speak or write in Latin. Nowadays, Roman influences can be found all over the world, even in areas that never had contact with the Romans such as Japan. But while the Japanese may build Roman-style buildings, they do not speak Latin. Things like architecture are more easily transferred between different cultures than language. In 2000 years from now they will likely still build large monumental buildings in the Roman style, but I am pretty sure they won't be speaking Latin.
I think that is why language is held to stricter standard in this regard. Because it changes so much, people expect it to change. Therefore, when a language doesn't change, it seems weird. Something like the influence and appeal of Roman styles on the other hand seem eternal because they are so old and unchanging. Therefore people do not regard it as weird to see them in a future setting, even though it would make sense that after 40000 years no one actually remembers the Romans.
Well said. Also, they've stated that they don't speak English in the far future. Everything has similarities to our old Earth cultures, but they're not identical. All have been modified in some way.
As for the Lion, I guess you can assume "Lion El' Jonson" is the most "Englishy" translation of his true Gothic/Calibanite name.
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Luciferian wrote: The use of plain English is jarring to me only on certain models. For example, the "Wrath of Caliban" inscription on the Ravenwing Command Champion's sword just looks too straight forward and contemporary. But personally it's a matter of typeset and design more than which language's characters they're using.
Yeah exactly. I feel it'd be more immersive and less jarring if they used a Gothic script. Doesn't matter so much that we have to be able to read it.
@Iron_Captain: I would never argue against the fact that language changes rapidly in the real world, and that realistically in 38,000 years time the language of any humans would not be recognisable to a modern language. But the setting of 40k doesn't adhere to those rules.
I would be interested to hear what you had to say on the following. If language evolves rapidly in 40k as it does in the real world, when Guilliman is resurrected, how is it that he speaks an identical language to those around him, immediately? It shows that in the span of 10,000 years, low or high gothic have not altered at all. He is able to direct a strategically complex counter attack with no linguistical problems, but following the logic of the real world he would have extreme difficulty in expressing even the most basic of ideas with language.
It's not just Guilliman, we have other characters from millennia past cropping up in the story line. Language hasn't changed in that time, and if that's the case why would the preceding 28,000 years need to be radically different?
I appreciate your explanation of why people find language to not alter being more jarring than other aspects of culture, but I want to challenge the idea still.
Look at Guilliman:
Are people really fine with all the very obvious Roman trappings around him, but can't accept the Latin script carved into the stone? It's true that we still use Roman architecture in some contexts, we still use the Roman alphabet too. People like the OP (Maximus Bitch) are arguing that the script can't be there, that it would look completely different, but they are fine with everything else lifted from the Roman era in that picture above.
I know you have said the script could really be there, so the above doesn't directly relate to mine and your discussion. But I would like you to think about in the span of 40,000 years and the breadth from one end of the galaxy to another, when all ancient Terran history has been long lost, is it really plausible that a culture with obviously direct inspiration of the Roman era would arise? I would say no, but I would also say that's fine, because for me 40k doesn't have to, or aim to be a plausible setting. It is a world where the atmospheric trumps realism, and so when the Latin script is written on a building I am fine with it really being there and it does nothing to my suspension of belief.
As for the Lion, I guess you can assume "Lion El' Jonson" is the most "Englishy" translation of his true Gothic/Calibanite name.
Ah, so you believe none of the made-up names for characters are the real names of them? But they have "true" made up names we'll never know and instead the writers give them different made-up names?
Why?
Lion El'Jonson's name in a Calibanite dialect of Low Gothic means "Lion, Son of the Forest". But you're saying his true name is just as likely to be "Gnhjarkiuop" and it is merely being translated into "Lion El' Jonson"?
Why?
If that was the case they should either call him "Lion, Son of the Forest" or call him "Gnhjarkiuop" - why would they make another nonsensical name for him? You say it sounds "Englishy", but there are countless names that don't sound like any English word. Take "Jaghatai" of the White Scars, or take the planet "Macragge". What English words do these sound like? When I hear the word Macragge, what sort of connection is it making that calling it by it's "true" name wouldn't?
Do you think that every character they make, is under the presumption that it isn't their true name? All based on a line from a sourcebook from the 80s?
People can chime in if I am mistaken, but I think 99% of the player base take the names of characters to be their actual names and not some weird translation (weird because most the names are nonsensical).
Moving back to Lion El'Jonson, we have his name meaning "Lion, Son of the Forest", so two similarities to English (Lion and Son). It leaves us with the following:
Lion in English is spelt "Lion"
Lion in a Calibanite Dialect of Low Gothic is spelt "Lion"
We have a language that directly connects English and the Calibanite Dialect of Low Gothic, and that is Low Gothic itself. Is it not common sense to assume that Lion in Low Gothic is also spelt "Lion"?
I've said before that I am fine with Low Gothic being not identical to English, but I will argue it is largely the same and most importantly when it says "Purge" carved into the armour plates of a terminator, those are the script and characters really being used and that the written word "PURGE" in Low Gothic probably means purge in English.
As I said before, 40k is a setting where atmosphere and flavour trumps plausibility. It is not plausible that characters would have sword fights in the middle of pitched fully mechanised battles, but it is cool, so it happens.
It is not plausible that High Gothic really just is Psuedo Latin, but it's atmospheric, which is why it's the case.
Bottle wrote: I do. And I think real low gothic is just English.
But the fluff states that Gothic isn't English. They don't speak English in 40k
Not universally. But it's possible that a bastardized version may be still be spoken on some worlds in the 41st Millennium. It wasn't unusual for dead or moribund languages to be revived during Earth's early colonization period, when some groups left for out of the way worlds for reasons of nationalism or ethnic identity politics. There is no indication that this practice died out when Humanity united in an interstellar federation, circa M22 (Imperial Calendar).
Also, there are probably "dialects" of Low Gothic that have obvious links to modern English. Much in the same way that the Low Gothic spoken by Valhallans, Vostroyans, and the denizens of Fenris have obvious links to their parent Terran languages we are familiar with.
Maximus Bitch wrote:
But shouldn't we assume that pseudo-Latin is to High Gothic what English is to Low Gothic?
according to Andrew, we should just assume that all in-universe images have been edited with Google Translate, and that is most probably GW's intention, also signalling their intention to never invent a Gothic script.
Not necessarily. The pseudo-Latin (with some "Latinized" Greek words) is likely what High Gothic actually is. It looks, sounds, and feels imposing, ancient, and foreboding. Which fits the Imperium of Man to a tee.
As for the second, I don't subscribe to that idea. Everything we've seen so far indicates that the Roman alphabet is still used, especially in writing High Gothic (among other languages). And if something isn't written exclusively in the Roman alphabet, or uses Arabic and Roman numerals exclusively, then it's in ancient Greek lettering, Egyptian-inspired glyphs, or in mathematical symbols. These symbols and alphabets have survived millennia IRL. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't be continued to be used, in some form, for many more millennia in the future, regardless of language evolution or linguistic drift.
Maybe its done that way so people relate more to the Imperium as ourselves. that would explain why races get their own languages we can't read because the Imperium as a whole i.e. the basic guardsmen couldn't.
I prefer to think of it as a complete translation. it's like how in Tolkens stuff, the language of rohan wasn't actually Saxon, but it was used ans the explination was "because it bares the same relation to english, as the tounge of rohan does to the common tounge"
Not necessarily. The pseudo-Latin (with some "Latinized" Greek words) is likely what High Gothic actually is. It looks, sounds, and feels imposing, ancient, and foreboding. Which fits the Imperium of Man to a tee.
As for the second, I don't subscribe to that idea. Everything we've seen so far indicates that the Roman alphabet is still used, especially in writing High Gothic (among other languages). And if something isn't written exclusively in the Roman alphabet, or uses Arabic and Roman numerals exclusively, then it's in ancient Greek lettering, Egyptian-inspired glyphs, or in mathematical symbols. These symbols and alphabets have survived millennia IRL. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't be continued to be used, in some form, for many more millennia in the future, regardless of language evolution or linguistic drift.
But the IoM could be speaking something imposing and foreboding that we really wouldn't be able to make out, and then it is translated into something also imposing and foreboding, but which we can make out.
Well, plain English appears anyway.
Many ancient Greek alphabets, and Egyptian coptic script are no longer used. Maybe the Roman alphabet meets a similar fate sometime in the far future.
But, okay, let's assume that the Roman alphabet survives. What does it look like when they use the Roman alphabet to write the Gothic dialect that's totally unlike English?
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BrianDavion wrote: I prefer to think of it as a complete translation. it's like how in Tolkens stuff, the language of rohan wasn't actually Saxon, but it was used ans the explination was "because it bares the same relation to english, as the tounge of rohan does to the common tounge"
Like a linguistic analogy!
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Anaerian wrote: Maybe its done that way so people relate more to the Imperium as ourselves. that would explain why races get their own languages we can't read because the Imperium as a whole i.e. the basic guardsmen couldn't.
Well GW has never said anything on why they do it.
right, it makes sense when you view it that way. it's not that low gothic is english and high gothic is latin, but that high gothic is to latin as low gothic is to english
Put it this way. If they wrote Horus Rising all in low gothic, or even just the speech (because lets face it, that's what they're all speaking) and you couldn't understand a word of it, would you be happy? Probably not if there wasn't an accompanying English (or your preferred 2017 language) translation on the opposite page. What about an artwork of say, a man standing, shoulders slumped, head down in front of a dark building, with an unintelligible language over the door? Would it not have more meaning to the viewer if it says even just "factory" or "recruitment office" over it? Now quit yer bitching about non-issues and recognise the simple answer that if you are trying to write or draw something and get people to relate to it they need to be able to understand it.
Before you start, the reason, as I think has already been said, for the SW or necrons having runes and alien script is to project an otherness. When the artist/author wants us to feel distance to the characters portrayed, they put that barrier up. If they want us to connect to them (say, any normal human and most space marines in the imperium, or even aliens if the story is from their point of view) they're gonna remove the language barrier.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Put it this way. If they wrote Horus Rising all in low gothic, or even just the speech (because lets face it, that's what they're all speaking) and you couldn't understand a word of it, would you be happy? Probably not if there wasn't an accompanying English (or your preferred 2017 language) translation on the opposite page.
I'm not asking for a Gothic language version of all the speech in a novel. After all, we have to read the speech when reading a novel.
It might be cool if they teach us a few Gothic words though.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: What about an artwork of say, a man standing, shoulders slumped, head down in front of a dark building, with an unintelligible language over the door? Would it not have more meaning to the viewer if it says even just "factory" or "recruitment office" over it?
It could, but it also could have artistic value if there were some Gothicky inscriptions over the door.
Hey, I'm not "bitching". Let us please discuss respectfully and disagree respectfully.
We shouldn't ask each other to "quit" because we don't agree with each other.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: the simple answer that if you are trying to write or draw something and get people to relate to it they need to be able to understand it.
Not strictly necessary. It could be through the lighting, the surroundings, the poses.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Before you start, the reason, as I think has already been said, for the SW or necrons having runes and alien script is to project an otherness. When the artist/author wants us to feel distance to the characters portrayed, they put that barrier up. If they want us to connect to them (say, any normal human and most space marines in the imperium, or even aliens if the story is from their point of view) they're gonna remove the language barrier.
I understand that. But what if they wanted to immerse us in a far-future setting where English is no longer the lingua franca, where psykers are born amongst us. I wonder what your thoughts would be if GW published a Gothic script.
An English to Low Gothic and English to High Gothic dictionary would be 2 seperate books to sell, plus if they put it in art and models, it would be more copyrigjtable?
Sorry, that was meant to be a joke regarding your username. And if they published a gothic script, I'd happily ignore it because all the books will still be in English and all the art and models will still have English on them. In all seriousness I don't think it would add anything, only detract from the experience.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Sorry, that was meant to be a joke regarding your username. And if they published a gothic script, I'd happily ignore it because all the books will still be in English and all the art and models will still have English on them. In all seriousness I don't think it would add anything, only detract from the experience.
Oh, I see. haha.
With the release of a script, they would release new art of things with Gothic with written on them. Like the image of a Word Bearer with Colchisian runes that I posted earlier.
I do think it adds something. If not then why come up with Colchisian runes? But to each his own.
We could take it even further. I think it'd be fun to hang banners written in Gothic at WH40K events. Is that too nerdy though?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Sorry, that was meant to be a joke regarding your username. And if they published a gothic script, I'd happily ignore it because all the books will still be in English and all the art and models will still have English on them. In all seriousness I don't think it would add anything, only detract from the experience.
Oh, I see. haha.
With the release of a script, they would release new art of things with Gothic with written on them. Like the image of a Word Bearer with Colchisian runes that I posted earlier.
I do think it adds something. If not then why come up with Colchisian runes? But to each his own.
The runes of the Word Bearers are there to evoke a mysterious otherness and to enhance their association with dark rituals and daemons (an association which runes carry thanks to the early Church). The Imperium meanwhile, are the guys we as 21st Century people are supposed to connect and relate to. They serve as our viewpoint into the setting. That is why they use English and the Latin Alphabet (or other languages if you read stuff in a different language), so we can actually understand them. Without understanding, there is no relatability and therefore little connection. Sure, a cool script would be nice and artsy, but it is better to save that effort for Xenos, Chaos or others that are supposed to be enigmatic and mysterious or otherwise have a sense of 'otherness'.
Maximus Bitch wrote: We could take it even further. I think it'd be fun to hang banners written in Gothic at WH40K events. Is that too nerdy though?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Sorry, that was meant to be a joke regarding your username. And if they published a gothic script, I'd happily ignore it because all the books will still be in English and all the art and models will still have English on them. In all seriousness I don't think it would add anything, only detract from the experience.
Oh, I see. haha.
With the release of a script, they would release new art of things with Gothic with written on them. Like the image of a Word Bearer with Colchisian runes that I posted earlier.
I do think it adds something. If not then why come up with Colchisian runes? But to each his own.
The runes of the Word Bearers are there to evoke a mysterious otherness and to enhance their association with dark rituals and daemons (an association which runes carry thanks to the early Church).
The Imperium meanwhile, are the guys we as 21st Century people are supposed to connect and relate to. They serve as our viewpoint into the setting. That is why they use English and the Latin Alphabet (or other languages if you read stuff in a different language), so we can actually understand them. Without understanding, there is no relatability and therefore little connection.
Sure, a cool script would be nice and artsy, but it is better to save that effort for Xenos, Chaos or others that are supposed to be enigmatic and mysterious or otherwise have a sense of 'otherness'.
Maximus Bitch wrote: We could take it even further. I think it'd be fun to hang banners written in Gothic at WH40K events. Is that too nerdy though?
Yes.
Well, the Word Bearers have been made so relatable with all the novels written about them. They're human after all.
Chaos humans can still use the Gothic script. Well, I'm sure GW can muster enough manpower to create a script.
Haha, we mustn't be too nerdy, lest others laugh at us wargamers.
