Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."

I don't have the original sources though.

The original source for that is the original Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader rulebook. Is it still canon? It is ff you want.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."

I don't have the original sources though.

The original source for that is the original Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader rulebook. Is it still canon? It is ff you want.

Bottle is asserting that people in 40K do actually speak English.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Ok, take Exodus:Gods and Kings for example. Its set in Ancient Egypt with an English-speaking cast. Yet, I think audiences would be appalled if the hieroglyphs on the walls were replaced with English!

No more appalled than they were at having to watch it. If the "text" of the hieroglyphs were relevant to the film, it would have been, though. We're back to the way alien races' written texts are displayed. Heiroglyphs in that movie were just set dressing; no-one was expected to read them. Unlike the depictions of written Imperial text , where the actual information content is just as important as having gothic squiggles on the page.

Why did BL discourage it?

No idea. The Imperium has always been the point of view for the entire setting. Probably because we can understand their thinking because we're humans. With aliens, being able to understand them runs the risk of them simply feeling like humans in rubber masks, rather than properly alien psychologies.

If it's Earth, why call it "Terra"? It's called "gothic" to invoke a theme. If there is anything beyond Rogue Trader as a source that states it is not English and Psuedo-Latin I will happily concede the point, but even if the spoken language is completely different it doesn't mean the scripts can't be the same (and even the words). Cantonese and Manadarin are both written in the same written language but are spoken aloud differently as far as I understand, so it could be like that. There are so many examples of English and Pseudo-Latin words appearing in the artwork/on miniatures there is a strong case that the languages written are at least English and Psuedo-Latin even if the spoken languages differ.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Ok, take Exodus:Gods and Kings for example. Its set in Ancient Egypt with an English-speaking cast. Yet, I think audiences would be appalled if the hieroglyphs on the walls were replaced with English!

No more appalled than they were at having to watch it. If the "text" of the hieroglyphs were relevant to the film, it would have been, though. We're back to the way alien races' written texts are displayed. Heiroglyphs in that movie were just set dressing; no-one was expected to read them. Unlike the depictions of written Imperial text , where the actual information content is just as important as having gothic squiggles on the page.

Why did BL discourage it?

No idea. The Imperium has always been the point of view for the entire setting. Probably because we can understand their thinking because we're humans. With aliens, being able to understand them runs the risk of them simply feeling like humans in rubber masks, rather than properly alien psychologies.

Most of the words in Imperial picts are just decorative too


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bottle wrote:
If it's Earth, why call it "Terra"? It's called "gothic" to invoke a theme. If there is anything beyond Rogue Trader as a source that states it is not English and Psuedo-Latin I will happily concede the point

Cos Earth is Low Gothic and Terra is High Gothic. But they don't actually speak English anyway! Canon remains until it is retconned.

 Bottle wrote:
even if the spoken language is completely different it doesn't mean the scripts can't be the same (and even the words). Cantonese and Manadarin are both written in the same written language but are spoken aloud differently as far as I understand, so it could be like that. There are so many examples of English and Pseudo-Latin words appearing in the artwork/on miniatures there is a strong case that the languages written are at least English and Psuedo-Latin even if the spoken languages differ.

again

Maximus Bitch wrote:

So if they were written with the Roman Alphabet, they would be totally different words.

"Mechanicus" might become "Wiodpfssrt". No longer the same.

Lastly, there's a difference between logographies and phonemies.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
the source is supposed to be in here somewhere:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/56195218/Warhammer-40k-5E-Rulebook

I couldn't find it though. See if you can find it.

Nah, I am okay. I am happy to keep thinking High Gothic is Pseudo-Latin and low gothic is English. All the artwork and miniatures support this, and it is cool and atmospheric.

If someone shows me a modern source, I will happily concede but I have no pressing desire to go through the entire 5th edition rule book to find otherwise.

40k is the Dark Ages in space. 30k is Antiquity in space. I mean, if you're not happy about them speaking Latin, are you happy with them plastering themselves in Romanesque iconography, symbols and heraldry, that building are based off Roman architecture (for example the Ultramarines), or do you think that is all rendered into things familiar to us too and in actual fact they are dressed wildly different in buildings made of bizarre shapes and materials?

 Bottle wrote:
Nah, I am okay. I am happy to keep thinking High Gothic is Pseudo-Latin and low gothic is English. All the artwork and miniatures support this, and it is cool and atmospheric.

If someone shows me a modern source, I will happily concede but I have no pressing desire to go through the entire 5th edition rule book to find otherwise.

40k is the Dark Ages in space. 30k is Antiquity in space. I mean, if you're not happy about them speaking Latin, are you happy with them plastering themselves in Romanesque iconography, symbols and heraldry, that building are based off Roman architecture (for example the Ultramarines), or do you think that is all rendered into things familiar to us too and in actual fact they are dressed wildly different in buildings made of bizarre shapes and materials?

No, that's not what I meant. I meant, why inscribe English when they can inscribe something cooler and something that is actually part of the setting.

There's nothing cooler and it is just as much part of the setting as all the Roman columns and iconography.

 Bottle wrote:
There's nothing cooler and it is just as much part of the setting as all the Roman columns and iconography.

Nothing cooler?

I mean, we use roman letters everyday.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Most of the words in Imperial picts are just decorative too

Exactly. the words are the important element - i.e. the semantic meaning represented by the squiggles on the page, not simply the squiggles themselves. You need to be able to understand, not just see the words to get the complete effect.

That's not the case for the alien symbols.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Most of the words in Imperial picts are just decorative too

Exactly. the words are the important element - i.e. the semantic meaning represented by the squiggles on the page, not simply the squiggles themselves. You need to be able to understand, not just see the words to get the complete effect.

Umm, I don't think so.

Presumably the artists do, otherwise they wouldn't be putting the writing in the artwork.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Presumably the artists do, otherwise they wouldn't be putting the writing in the artwork.

But the text doesn't occupy a prominent position in most works. Also, due to the lack of a Gothic script.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
There's nothing cooler and it is just as much part of the setting as all the Roman columns and iconography.

Nothing cooler?

I mean, we use roman letters everyday.

This is a good example. The Latin on the stairs looks all kinds of awesome. What would you rather have written there? Nothing could be cooler. Obviously this is contextual. There are other instances when runes or symbols look cooler, but for displaying the crumbling ruin of the Imperium, Latin fits best.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Calnos wrote:

Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...

Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.

In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.

For LOTR and TES, I'm just referring to the scripts, not the speech.

well, they use English because its for an English-speaking audience, and the Latin is to make it sound posh.

I'm just wondering if they could put some Gothic inscriptions on the in-universe objects. They could do that and still write the fluff in English and pseudo-Latin right?


Unless you're telling me that you totally loathe the idea of any Gothic inscriptions and you must have English carved on all the objects. I've also pointed out that there are Colchisian cuneiform and glyphs.

Actually, In LotR they also use the Latin alphabet to represent Westron (Common Speech).

TES also has almost all of its writing in the Latin alphabet, unless it is in a foreign language (Daedric or Dragon-tongue) or you set the game's language to Russian (in which case everything will be in the Cyrillic alphabet).
The only work of fantasy or science fiction that doesn't use the Latin Alphabet to represent the 'normal' language of the protagonists is Star Wars afaik.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Calnos wrote:

Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...

Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.

In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.

For LOTR and TES, I'm just referring to the scripts, not the speech.

well, they use English because its for an English-speaking audience, and the Latin is to make it sound posh.

I'm just wondering if they could put some Gothic inscriptions on the in-universe objects. They could do that and still write the fluff in English and pseudo-Latin right?


Unless you're telling me that you totally loathe the idea of any Gothic inscriptions and you must have English carved on all the objects. I've also pointed out that there are Colchisian cuneiform and glyphs.

Actually, In LotR they also use the Latin alphabet to represent Westron (Common Speech).

TES also has almost all of its writing in the Latin alphabet, unless it is in a foreign language (Daedric or Dragon-tongue) or you set the game's language to Russian (in which case everything will be in the Cyrillic alphabet).
The only work of fantasy or science fiction that doesn't not use the Latin Alphabet to represent the 'normal' language of the protagonists is Star Wars afaik.

Hmm yes I'm aware of that.

So far there hasn't been a need to read stuff in 40k

 Bottle wrote:
If it's Earth, why call it "Terra"? It's called "gothic" to invoke a theme. If there is anything beyond Rogue Trader as a source that states it is not English and Psuedo-Latin I will happily concede the point, but even if the spoken language is completely different it doesn't mean the scripts can't be the same (and even the words). Cantonese and Manadarin are both written in the same written language but are spoken aloud differently as far as I understand, so it could be like that. There are so many examples of English and Pseudo-Latin words appearing in the artwork/on miniatures there is a strong case that the languages written are at least English and Psuedo-Latin even if the spoken languages differ.

Rogue Trader fluff is still valid as long as it hasn't been superseded by more modern fluff. Much of the foundations of 40k fluff come from Rogue Trader.
If you want to read some more modern fluff about the languages of the Imperium, there is some information in the roleplaying sourcebooks altough that says nothing on their origin.
Regardless, common sense dictates that after 40000 years, English and Latin can no longer exist, at least not in a form we could possibly recognise. It is common knowledge that languages change rapidly over time.
The English of 1000 years ago is completely unintelligible to modern English. If a 1000 years changes a language like that, than what will 40000 years do?
Furthermore, Low Gothic isn't English because it is Low Gothic. If it had been English it would have been called English. A language's name for itself is one of the few things that doesn't change. Furthermore, pseudo-Latin is not High Gothic because High Gothic is supposed to be a functional language, and the pseudo-Latin that GW uses is not a language at all but rather unconnected strings of words.

Of course, the Imperium could very well be using the Latin alphabet. Writing systems tend to be used across multiple languages, making them far more lasting than the languages themselves. But they would use the Latin Alphabet to write Low and High Gothic, not English or Latin.

All the miniatures and art with English and Psuedo-Latin say otherwise. 40k doesn't have to be a plausible far future setting.

Names of languages can change, the Korean language was first called 훈민정음 (humminjeongeom) and is now called 한글 (Hangul).

Your last point I can agree with.

 Bottle wrote:
All the miniatures and art with English and Psuedo-Latin say otherwise. 40k doesn't have to be a plausible far future setting.

Names of languages can change, the Korean language was first called 훈민정음 (humminjeongeom) and is now called 한글 (Hangul).

Your last point I can agree with.

English and Pseudo-Latin are only used to represent Low and High Gothic. So what is it that they would say otherwise?
40k does have to be plausible enough not to break the willing suspension of disbelief. Therefore we assume that unless otherwise noted (such as with the Warp) the 40k universe is governed by the same fundamental laws as our universe. Otherwise you might as well start denying gravity exists in 40k or that humans in 40k need to use the bathroom.

Also, my knowledge of Korea and Korean is unfortunately limited, but as far as I know Hangul is the name of a writing system and Humminjeongeom is the name of the document in which this writing system was published. Neither of them are languages. Afaik, the Koreans call their language Hanguk-eo.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
All the miniatures and art with English and Psuedo-Latin say otherwise. 40k doesn't have to be a plausible far future setting.

Names of languages can change, the Korean language was first called 훈민정음 (humminjeongeom) and is now called 한글 (Hangul).

Your last point I can agree with.

English and Pseudo-Latin are only used to represent Low and High Gothic. So what is it that they would say otherwise?
40k does have to be plausible enough not to break the willing suspension of disbelief. Therefore we assume that unless otherwise noted (such as with the Warp) the 40k universe is governed by the same fundamental laws as our universe. Otherwise you might as well start denying gravity exists in 40k or that humans in 40k need to use the bathroom.

Also, my knowledge of Korea and Korean is unfortunately limited, but as far as I know Hangul is the name of a writing system and Humminjeongeom is the name of the document in which this writing system was published. Neither of them are languages. Afaik, the Koreans call their language Hanguk-eo.

Fair enough, I thought we were including written languages in the names of languages never changing. It was originally named after the document, and held that name for 400 years before being renamed. If we are just going for spoken languages then both South Korea and North Korea have different names for the same language - but this is getting off topic.

If you think that Low Gothic is not English, I would like to know where you draw the line. Are the names of characters the real names or are they too representations of the new language they are speaking? If they are the real names, then we have characters like Lion El'Johnson who is also known as the "The Lion". Presumably the word lion would be something else, but then why would Lion El'Johnson be known as "The Lion" if the word for lion was something different. Or is it all a big coincidence that his name and nickname are identical?

Talking about suspension of disbelief, people are fine that 40'000 years in the future people build Romanesque buildings, use Romanesque architecture, cover themselves in iconography that resembles Roman iconography, structures their military in a similar way etc etc etc but when they also speak like Romans, that's it? The line too far and all suspension of belief is lost? It seems odd to me, why does language have to be held to such strict standards but other aspects of culture not?

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Can you provide a source?

From the wikia " it is represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages. "

I'll try to get the direct source.

If its English, why call it Low Gothic?

Becase its 38000 years in the future and our words for everything is completely different; Activation Runes instead of buttons, pict feed instead of video, etc

 Deadshot wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Can you provide a source?

From the wikia " it is represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages. "

I'll try to get the direct source.

If its English, why call it Low Gothic?

Becase its 38000 years in the future and our words for everything is completely different; Activation Runes instead of buttons, pict feed instead of video, etc

So you also believe that Low Gothic is actually English?

In all honesty Low Gothic isn't even a single unified language. It's simply represented in english for ease of portrayal. Many low gothic speakers from different planets can't even communicate with each other.

High gothic by comparison is the language of bureaucracy, akin to Latin in the Catholic church or the Late Roman Empire. Used simply to help reduce miscommunications for those from different parts of the empire. Eventually getting an almost religious status.

The whole reason High Gothic uses pseudo-Latin as it's representation is to help give a sense of familiarity but ultimately giving a sense it's a dead language for day to day speech. So only those who are highly educated will recognise it's in depth reasoning.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Presumably the artists do, otherwise they wouldn't be putting the writing in the artwork.

Damnit, GW has refused to answer my question. Too hard a question for them.

The use of plain English is jarring to me only on certain models. For example, the "Wrath of Caliban" inscription on the Ravenwing Command Champion's sword just looks too straight forward and contemporary. But personally it's a matter of typeset and design more than which language's characters they're using.

 Bottle wrote:
If you think that Low Gothic is not English, I would like to know where you draw the line. Are the names of characters the real names or are they too representations of the new language they are speaking? If they are the real names, then we have characters like Lion El'Johnson who is also known as the "The Lion". Presumably the word lion would be something else, but then why would Lion El'Johnson be known as "The Lion" if the word for lion was something different. Or is it all a big coincidence that his name and nickname are identical?

Of course it is not a coincidence, but in-universe it could very well be. But it could also be that the word for lion in the language of Caliban coincidentally is the same as the one in english (those things happen) or that the people of Caliban spoke a language that is directly descended from English in which some words have not changed.

 Bottle wrote:
Talking about suspension of disbelief, people are fine that 40'000 years in the future people build Romanesque buildings, use Romanesque architecture, cover themselves in iconography that resembles Roman iconography, structures their military in a similar way etc etc etc but when they also speak like Romans, that's it? The line too far and all suspension of belief is lost? It seems odd to me, why does language have to be held to such strict standards but other aspects of culture not?

That is a good question. I think it is because language changes much more rapidly than many other aspects of cultures. Languages can change entirely in the span of just a few hundred years. In the present day, we still build Romanesque buildings and draw on the Romans for inspiration on lots of things. We have been building Roman-style buildings for 2000 years, yet we do no longer speak or write in Latin. Nowadays, Roman influences can be found all over the world, even in areas that never had contact with the Romans such as Japan. But while the Japanese may build Roman-style buildings, they do not speak Latin. Things like architecture are more easily transferred between different cultures than language. In 2000 years from now they will likely still build large monumental buildings in the Roman style, but I am pretty sure they won't be speaking Latin.
I think that is why language is held to stricter standard in this regard. Because it changes so much, people expect it to change. Therefore, when a language doesn't change, it seems weird. Something like the influence and appeal of Roman styles on the other hand seem eternal because they are so old and unchanging. Therefore people do not regard it as weird to see them in a future setting, even though it would make sense that after 40000 years no one actually remembers the Romans.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
If you think that Low Gothic is not English, I would like to know where you draw the line. Are the names of characters the real names or are they too representations of the new language they are speaking? If they are the real names, then we have characters like Lion El'Johnson who is also known as the "The Lion". Presumably the word lion would be something else, but then why would Lion El'Johnson be known as "The Lion" if the word for lion was something different. Or is it all a big coincidence that his name and nickname are identical?

Of course it is not a coincidence, but in-universe it could very well be. But it could also be that the word for lion in the language of Caliban coincidentally is the same as the one in english (those things happen) or that the people of Caliban spoke a language that is directly descended from English in which some words have not changed.

 Bottle wrote:
Talking about suspension of disbelief, people are fine that 40'000 years in the future people build Romanesque buildings, use Romanesque architecture, cover themselves in iconography that resembles Roman iconography, structures their military in a similar way etc etc etc but when they also speak like Romans, that's it? The line too far and all suspension of belief is lost? It seems odd to me, why does language have to be held to such strict standards but other aspects of culture not?

That is a good question. I think it is because language changes much more rapidly than many other aspects of cultures. Languages can change entirely in the span of just a few hundred years. In the present day, we still build Romanesque buildings and draw on the Romans for inspiration on lots of things. We have been building Roman-style buildings for 2000 years, yet we do no longer speak or write in Latin. Nowadays, Roman influences can be found all over the world, even in areas that never had contact with the Romans such as Japan. But while the Japanese may build Roman-style buildings, they do not speak Latin. Things like architecture are more easily transferred between different cultures than language. In 2000 years from now they will likely still build large monumental buildings in the Roman style, but I am pretty sure they won't be speaking Latin.
I think that is why language is held to stricter standard in this regard. Because it changes so much, people expect it to change. Therefore, when a language doesn't change, it seems weird. Something like the influence and appeal of Roman styles on the other hand seem eternal because they are so old and unchanging. Therefore people do not regard it as weird to see them in a future setting, even though it would make sense that after 40000 years no one actually remembers the Romans.

Well said. Also, they've stated that they don't speak English in the far future. Everything has similarities to our old Earth cultures, but they're not identical. All have been modified in some way.

As for the Lion, I guess you can assume "Lion El' Jonson" is the most "Englishy" translation of his true Gothic/Calibanite name.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Luciferian wrote:
The use of plain English is jarring to me only on certain models. For example, the "Wrath of Caliban" inscription on the Ravenwing Command Champion's sword just looks too straight forward and contemporary. But personally it's a matter of typeset and design more than which language's characters they're using.

Yeah exactly. I feel it'd be more immersive and less jarring if they used a Gothic script. Doesn't matter so much that we have to be able to read it.

@Iron_Captain: I would never argue against the fact that language changes rapidly in the real world, and that realistically in 38,000 years time the language of any humans would not be recognisable to a modern language. But the setting of 40k doesn't adhere to those rules.

I would be interested to hear what you had to say on the following. If language evolves rapidly in 40k as it does in the real world, when Guilliman is resurrected, how is it that he speaks an identical language to those around him, immediately? It shows that in the span of 10,000 years, low or high gothic have not altered at all. He is able to direct a strategically complex counter attack with no linguistical problems, but following the logic of the real world he would have extreme difficulty in expressing even the most basic of ideas with language.

It's not just Guilliman, we have other characters from millennia past cropping up in the story line. Language hasn't changed in that time, and if that's the case why would the preceding 28,000 years need to be radically different?

I appreciate your explanation of why people find language to not alter being more jarring than other aspects of culture, but I want to challenge the idea still.

Look at Guilliman:



Are people really fine with all the very obvious Roman trappings around him, but can't accept the Latin script carved into the stone? It's true that we still use Roman architecture in some contexts, we still use the Roman alphabet too. People like the OP (Maximus Bitch) are arguing that the script can't be there, that it would look completely different, but they are fine with everything else lifted from the Roman era in that picture above.

I know you have said the script could really be there, so the above doesn't directly relate to mine and your discussion. But I would like you to think about in the span of 40,000 years and the breadth from one end of the galaxy to another, when all ancient Terran history has been long lost, is it really plausible that a culture with obviously direct inspiration of the Roman era would arise? I would say no, but I would also say that's fine, because for me 40k doesn't have to, or aim to be a plausible setting. It is a world where the atmospheric trumps realism, and so when the Latin script is written on a building I am fine with it really being there and it does nothing to my suspension of belief.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

As for the Lion, I guess you can assume "Lion El' Jonson" is the most "Englishy" translation of his true Gothic/Calibanite name.

Ah, so you believe none of the made-up names for characters are the real names of them? But they have "true" made up names we'll never know and instead the writers give them different made-up names?

Why?

Lion El'Jonson's name in a Calibanite dialect of Low Gothic means "Lion, Son of the Forest". But you're saying his true name is just as likely to be "Gnhjarkiuop" and it is merely being translated into "Lion El' Jonson"?

Why?

If that was the case they should either call him "Lion, Son of the Forest" or call him "Gnhjarkiuop" - why would they make another nonsensical name for him? You say it sounds "Englishy", but there are countless names that don't sound like any English word. Take "Jaghatai" of the White Scars, or take the planet "Macragge". What English words do these sound like? When I hear the word Macragge, what sort of connection is it making that calling it by it's "true" name wouldn't?

Do you think that every character they make, is under the presumption that it isn't their true name? All based on a line from a sourcebook from the 80s?

People can chime in if I am mistaken, but I think 99% of the player base take the names of characters to be their actual names and not some weird translation (weird because most the names are nonsensical).

Moving back to Lion El'Jonson, we have his name meaning "Lion, Son of the Forest", so two similarities to English (Lion and Son). It leaves us with the following:

Lion in English is spelt "Lion"
Lion in a Calibanite Dialect of Low Gothic is spelt "Lion"
We have a language that directly connects English and the Calibanite Dialect of Low Gothic, and that is Low Gothic itself. Is it not common sense to assume that Lion in Low Gothic is also spelt "Lion"?

I've said before that I am fine with Low Gothic being not identical to English, but I will argue it is largely the same and most importantly when it says "Purge" carved into the armour plates of a terminator, those are the script and characters really being used and that the written word "PURGE" in Low Gothic probably means purge in English.

As I said before, 40k is a setting where atmosphere and flavour trumps plausibility. It is not plausible that characters would have sword fights in the middle of pitched fully mechanised battles, but it is cool, so it happens.

It is not plausible that High Gothic really just is Psuedo Latin, but it's atmospheric, which is why it's the case.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
I do. And I think real low gothic is just English.

But the fluff states that Gothic isn't English. They don't speak English in 40k

Not universally. But it's possible that a bastardized version may be still be spoken on some worlds in the 41st Millennium. It wasn't unusual for dead or moribund languages to be revived during Earth's early colonization period, when some groups left for out of the way worlds for reasons of nationalism or ethnic identity politics. There is no indication that this practice died out when Humanity united in an interstellar federation, circa M22 (Imperial Calendar).



Also, there are probably "dialects" of Low Gothic that have obvious links to modern English. Much in the same way that the Low Gothic spoken by Valhallans, Vostroyans, and the denizens of Fenris have obvious links to their parent Terran languages we are familiar with.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

But shouldn't we assume that pseudo-Latin is to High Gothic what English is to Low Gothic?

according to Andrew, we should just assume that all in-universe images have been edited with Google Translate, and that is most probably GW's intention, also signalling their intention to never invent a Gothic script.

Not necessarily. The pseudo-Latin (with some "Latinized" Greek words) is likely what High Gothic actually is. It looks, sounds, and feels imposing, ancient, and foreboding. Which fits the Imperium of Man to a tee.


As for the second, I don't subscribe to that idea. Everything we've seen so far indicates that the Roman alphabet is still used, especially in writing High Gothic (among other languages). And if something isn't written exclusively in the Roman alphabet, or uses Arabic and Roman numerals exclusively, then it's in ancient Greek lettering, Egyptian-inspired glyphs, or in mathematical symbols. These symbols and alphabets have survived millennia IRL. There is no reason to believe that they wouldn't be continued to be used, in some form, for many more millennia in the future, regardless of language evolution or linguistic drift.

Maybe its done that way so people relate more to the Imperium as ourselves. that would explain why races get their own languages we can't read because the Imperium as a whole i.e. the basic guardsmen couldn't.