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 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
At the same time though the Eldar Orks and Necrons scripts aren't languages either. Eldar is probably the closest and it's still far from properly resembling an actual language.

They are supposed to represent languages though. Because, its really not that important to have words in "pict captures". Xenos picts manage fine. Most Imperial picts don't contain text.

The symbols are supposed to represent a setting that is foreign to us 21st century humans. Gothic is described as foreign too, but it is not depicted as such. In fact, you could say that it is not depicted at all.

which is, by all reasonable means, rather incongruous.

About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.

Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.

So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.

This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.

Lord Perversor wrote:
About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.

Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.

So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.

This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.

Eh, this thread isn't about the differences between High & Low Gothic.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:
About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.

Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.

So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.

This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.

Eh, this thread isn't about the differences between High & Low Gothic.

Was just a point about why there is English or Latin at the products just as a way to convey an idea while still offering some comprehension behind the text.

Most current example of how Gothic may sound way be the way Belters speak in the Expanse,

Lord Perversor wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Lord Perversor wrote:
About the high Gothic vs Low gothic, we have little to no idea of how it is.

Some people on GW stated long long time ago, that the use of English vs Latin, was more of a *fixed* view in order to get an idea of the differences between both languages.

So we can use Latin or psudolatin to grasp the idea of High gothic (while the language per se it's different) and english for Low gothic.

This grant us a little imagen of how both work to each other with some words still sharing the same meaning or looking similar but both looking/sounding absolut different.

Eh, this thread isn't about the differences between High & Low Gothic.

Was just a point about why there is English or Latin at the products just as a way to convey an idea while still offering some comprehension behind the text.

Most current example of how Gothic may sound way be the way Belters speak in the Expanse,

My point was about why not GW increase the immersion by not putting English text in the pictures.

Because it would take away context.

It doesn't matter in we can't comprehend what it written in Xenos art because they are meant to feel alien.

Humanity is meant to feel somewhat familiar so we can empathise with them even though their society is almost completely alien too us. Making it impossible to even understand any inscriptions and the like in the artwork would remove that connection, leaving it to "well, we're both the same species I guess...".

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Because it would take away context.

It doesn't matter in we can't comprehend what it written in Xenos art because they are meant to feel alien.

Humanity is meant to feel somewhat familiar so we can empathise with them even though their society is almost completely alien too us. Making it impossible to even understand any inscriptions and the like in the artwork would remove that connection, leaving it to "well, we're both the same species I guess...".

I feel that having a Gothic script would be more immersive, it wouldn't be incongruous. Lots of settings have it. LOTR, TES. These are the medieval ones. In many space ones they have it for humans too.

I love the use of Latin and English in the Imperium. It is one of the key elements that gives the Imperium such a distinctive flavour.

I have always understood that Low Gothic was English and High Gothic was Latin. Do we have any modern sources to say that when a character is speaking English, they are instead speaking another language unintelligible to us? People always seem to reference Rogue Trader which had quite a lot of odd-ball fluff that hasn't been carried forward as the setting was progressed.

Matt.Kingsley's point is spot on.

Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...

Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.

In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.

Calnos wrote:

Your comparison to other fantasy settings doesn't really hold. The common tongue in LOTR is English. Maybe I missed your point...

Most settings base their protagonist species around English (or the language of origin), and anything alien is given alternate script / language. There is never an assumption that the actual language used in the setting is really English, but that is how it is interpreted for the reader.

In the end its up to personal preference, however I think you'll find (like Bottle) that many people find the use of Latin and English a distinguishing feature for the setting and replacing it with unnecessary extra script unwanted.

For LOTR and TES, I'm just referring to the scripts, not the speech.

well, they use English because its for an English-speaking audience, and the Latin is to make it sound posh.

I'm just wondering if they could put some Gothic inscriptions on the in-universe objects. They could do that and still write the fluff in English and pseudo-Latin right?


Unless you're telling me that you totally loathe the idea of any Gothic inscriptions and you must have English carved on all the objects. I've also pointed out that there are Colchisian cuneiform and glyphs.

The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).

Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.

Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!

Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.

The same BL person (Marc Gascoigne) that claimed there was no such thing as canon was also the one that claimed there would never ever be any novels or stories from an alien POV.

Given how there is the Dark Eldar trilogy by Andy Chambers, the Eldar Valedor novel, a couple Eldar audioplays also by Gav Thorpe, the Asurmen novel by Gav Thorpe, and the upcoming Jain Zarr novel by Gav Thorpe, I think we can safely say that Marc is discredited.

... Or the editorial direction changed. It was true when he said it, but things change. In any case, less than a dozen publications is a blip on the radar.

He's still right about the canon thing, though.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
... Or the editorial direction changed. It was true when he said it, but things change. In any case, less than a dozen publications is a blip on the radar.

He's still right about the canon thing, though.

No he isn't. 40K clearly has a canon in operation even if they don't use that term. A rose by any other name is still a rose. A loose canon compared to some other universes, but the fact that there are stable "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE" facts about the universe is the definition of a canon. Space Marines exist. Bolters fire bolts. Horus existed and rebelled. The fact there may be some mistakes, contradictions, or retcons does not in itself mean there is no canon. It means the canon is imperfect but then so is just about every other IP property.

See this following quote from Gav Thorpe on his website about submitting to BL:

Approved submissions get notified, and we work out the next step. Usually this is “Await our instructions”, but it could be specific feedback like “You’ve not quite got the dialogue for Space Marines right, please make more formal” or “This isn’t how the warp works, please check the 40k rulebook” or “Would this not be better from the Tau point of view?” At this stage we are inviting the submitter to tweak their work to make up for what we see as its weak points.

https://gavthorpe.co.uk/2017/03/31/march-2017-qa/

The fact that aspiring writers sending in submissions to BL have to adhere to certain standards and facts about the 40K universe show there is an operating canon. If the editors can say "This isn't how the warp works" (i.e. "You've got it wrong") shows it is not anything goes, and those limits are what canon is.


Marc Gascoigne was simply wrong about this just as he was wrong about the supposed impossibility of writing from a xenos POV (which was the supposed rationale for the "Human POV only" BL policy). The fact there are now multiple works in which there are xenos POV show it is not the impossibility he thought it was. There are far more than a dozen examples if one includes the xenos POV parts in human protagonist POV novels in addition to the pure xenos POV novels.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).

Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.

Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!

Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.

Are you replying to me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Iracundus wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
... Or the editorial direction changed. It was true when he said it, but things change. In any case, less than a dozen publications is a blip on the radar.

He's still right about the canon thing, though.

No he isn't. 40K clearly has a canon in operation even if they don't use that term. A rose by any other name is still a rose. A loose canon compared to some other universes, but the fact that there are stable "THIS IS THE WAY THINGS ARE" facts about the universe is the definition of a canon. Space Marines exist. Bolters fire bolts. Horus existed and rebelled. The fact there may be some mistakes, contradictions, or retcons does not in itself mean there is no canon. It means the canon is imperfect but then so is just about every other IP property.

See this following quote from Gav Thorpe on his website about submitting to BL:

Approved submissions get notified, and we work out the next step. Usually this is “Await our instructions”, but it could be specific feedback like “You’ve not quite got the dialogue for Space Marines right, please make more formal” or “This isn’t how the warp works, please check the 40k rulebook” or “Would this not be better from the Tau point of view?” At this stage we are inviting the submitter to tweak their work to make up for what we see as its weak points.

https://gavthorpe.co.uk/2017/03/31/march-2017-qa/

The fact that aspiring writers sending in submissions to BL have to adhere to certain standards and facts about the 40K universe show there is an operating canon. If the editors can say "This isn't how the warp works" (i.e. "You've got it wrong") shows it is not anything goes, and those limits are what canon is.

Yes, a loose canon. haha, nice term.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Yes, a loose canon. haha, nice term.

Pun was unintended.

Loose canon is one in which there is much looser and less rigorous oversight compared to a tight canon. The old Star Wars EU was an example of a rather tight canon, with a lot more checking of continuity and detail. GW and BL are much looser and I doubt they would spot or care overly much about minor continuity errors, but they still would care if a writer tried to write that the Emperor and Space Marines never ever existed, or that bolters shot laser beams.

However whether loose or tight, whether riddled with errors or airtight, the fact is there is a de facto canon in operation for virtually all IPs. Some might call it the internal consistency or internal logic of the fictional work. Readers might suspend disbelief for certain things (like magic or superpowers in a fantasy or superhero work for example) but the authors generally still have to adhere to the rules and boundaries established when they first created the fictional universe.

Iracundus wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

Yes, a loose canon. haha, nice term.

Pun was unintended.

Loose canon is one in which there is much looser and less rigorous oversight compared to a tight canon. The old Star Wars EU was an example of a rather tight canon, with a lot more checking of continuity and detail. GW and BL are much looser and I doubt they would spot or care overly much about minor continuity errors, but they still would care if a writer tried to write that the Emperor and Space Marines never ever existed, or that bolters shot laser beams.

However whether loose or tight, whether riddled with errors or airtight, the fact is there is a de facto canon in operation for virtually all IPs. Some might call it the internal consistency or internal logic of the fictional work. Readers might suspend disbelief for certain things (like magic or superpowers in a fantasy or superhero work for example) but the authors generally still have to adhere to the rules and boundaries established when they first created the fictional universe.

Thank you, but we're digressing here.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).

Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.

Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!

Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.

Are you replying to me?

Yes. You asked for examples, in a previous post:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
It's simply the same thing as is done whenever someone writes a fantasy or sf novel in a language the readers will understand. Films are almost always made in the language of the country they're made for, regardless of what language the characters would "really" speak (the only exception I can think of from Hoolywood is The Passion of the Christ, filmed in Aramaic and Latin).

And they did say that they do that when writing the fluff.

Can you give me some specific examples of these movies though. Can't think of one at the moment.

As for off-topic, I'm not sure you can control that, I'm afraid. You start the topic off, and then it's like riding a bronco - it goes where it goes, and you just hang on.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The endnotes for Lord of the Rings explicitly tell us that the Common Speech is not English, so there's an example of how the entire work has been translated (it even discusses the coincidence that some puns in the "original" language still work in English).

Another example would be Prince of Persia - they would all "really" be speaking Farsi or whatever else they speak out there, but it's all in English. Ben Kingsley might have been able to make a go of an appropriate language, but probably not the rest of them.

Or there's 'Allo 'Allo, where they're all speaking French , but it's rendered onscreen by a selection of (comically bad) accents and everyone speaking English. They even manage to have one character be obviously speaking bad French!

Almost all the fluff is from the Imperium's point of view, or from that of an omniscient observer. Even direct quotes are taken from conversations with Imperial authors. There's been hardly anything published from the aliens' POV; Deff Skwadron and Gav Thorpe's Eldar series is all I can think of. It was actively discouraged by Black Library for quite a while.

Are you replying to me?

Yes. You asked for examples, in a previous post

Oh, that was so far back.

Ok, take Exodus:Gods and Kings for example. Its set in Ancient Egypt with an English-speaking cast. Yet, I think audiences would be appalled if the hieroglyphs on the walls were replaced with English!

Same goes for Prince of Persia.

I can't remember, but I think LOTR did feature some English text though. I'm not sure about Allo Allo, but its not serious haha.


Why did BL discourage it?

I think your issue here, is that you are comparing something where there is already an established language, with a completely made up one.

The issue is also that Imperial Gothic isn't consistent throughout the Galaxy.. Even High Gothic has variation depending on where you are

@OP

What source do you have that High/low Gothic isn't written with the Latin alphabet?

As I mentioned before, I only hear people cite old Rogue Trader fluff In regard to this. But Rogue Trader has lots of old fluff that cannot really be considered part of modern 40k.

GodDamUser wrote:
I think your issue here, is that you are comparing something where there is already an established language, with a completely made up one.

The issue is also that Imperial Gothic isn't consistent throughout the Galaxy.. Even High Gothic has variation depending on where you are

An alternate setting is an alternate setting. I mean, most people can't read hieroglyphs either. I don't think its highly necessary to be able to understand the words within a picture, and not using English definitely increases the amount of immersion.

Well, the Roman alphabet spread throughout its empire and is now the dominant script in the world. When China's "God-Emperor" Qin won his unification wars, he made all of China use one script. As Islam spread throughout the western half of Asia and through Africa, so did the Arabic script.

So though Gothic might not be the same everywhere, they might all use the same script.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bottle wrote:
@OP

What source do you have that High/low Gothic isn't written with the Latin alphabet?

As I mentioned before, I only hear people cite old Rogue Trader fluff In regard to this. But Rogue Trader has lots of old fluff that cannot really be considered part of modern 40k.

Well, Low Gothic is very different from English, and High Gothic is very different from Latin or pseudo Latin.

So if they were written with the Roman Alphabet, they would be totally different words.

"Mechanicus" might become "Wiodpfssrt". No longer the same.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:
I think your issue here, is that you are comparing something where there is already an established language, with a completely made up one.

The issue is also that Imperial Gothic isn't consistent throughout the Galaxy.. Even High Gothic has variation depending on where you are

An alternate setting is an alternate setting. I mean, most people can't read hieroglyphs either. I don't think its highly necessary to be able to understand the words within a picture, and not using English definitely increases the amount of immersion.

Well, the Roman alphabet spread throughout its empire and is now the dominant script in the world. When China's "God-Emperor" Qin won his unification wars, he made all of China use one script. As Islam spread throughout the western half of Asia and through Africa, so did the Arabic script.

So though Gothic might not be the same everywhere, they might all use the same script.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bottle wrote:
@OP

What source do you have that High/low Gothic isn't written with the Latin alphabet?

As I mentioned before, I only hear people cite old Rogue Trader fluff In regard to this. But Rogue Trader has lots of old fluff that cannot really be considered part of modern 40k.

Well, Low Gothic is very different from English, and High Gothic is very different from Latin or pseudo Latin.

So if they were written with the Roman Alphabet, they would be totally different words.

"Mechanicus" might become "Wiodpfssrt". No longer the same.

I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin

 Deadshot wrote:
I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin

It is also known as Aquila armour.

I say pseudo-Latin because GW doesn't use accurate latin, because they don't know and they know most of their audience doesn't either, and they're not too serious about that.

According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."

I don't have the original sources though.

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin

It is also known as Aquila armour.

I say pseudo-Latin because GW doesn't use accurate latin, because they don't know and they know most of their audience doesn't either, and they're not too serious about that.

According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."

I don't have the original sources though.

The wikias aren't 100% accurate - there's a good chance that it's not supported in canon, and is instead a leap of logic by the author of the article.
If there's a BL source for that, I'd happily accept it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
I disagree about the Pseudo-Latin, hence why its "Pseudo." Many words and phrases have changed in 40k to mean something different to real Latin, for example, Armorum Imperator, the High Gothic name of Mk 7 armour, which in Latin translates to Emperor Armour but in High Gothic to Eagle Armour. Therefore I suggest High Gothic is pure and simple Pseudo Latin

It is also known as Aquila armour.

I say pseudo-Latin because GW doesn't use accurate latin, because they don't know and they know most of their audience doesn't either, and they're not too serious about that.

According to the wikias,"High Gothic (represented in the game by pseudo-Latinised English)" and "This developed during the Dark Age of Technology. It derives from the common tongue of the time, in the Merican/Pan-Pacific region."

I don't have the original sources though.

The wikias aren't 100% accurate - there's a good chance that it's not supported in canon, and is instead a leap of logic by the author of the article.
If there's a BL source for that, I'd happily accept it.

So you believe that the "real" High Gothic is exactly pseudo-Latin?

I do. And I think real low gothic is just English.

 Bottle wrote:
I do. And I think real low gothic is just English.

But the fluff states that Gothic isn't English. They don't speak English in 40k

Can you provide a source?

 Bottle wrote:
Can you provide a source?

From the wikia " it is represented for our purposes as twenty-first century English in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, though in fact it would be utterly unintelligible to English-speakers after tens of thousands of Terran years of linguistic drift and hybridisation with other languages. "

I'll try to get the direct source.

If its English, why call it Low Gothic?