So I play 40k with my sister. We don't have a lot of money so i used DND miniatures to represent the armies. I've seen the prices that GW puts on their Tyranid miniatures and have also seen some of them 3d printed. But what if I printed out of paper? It would be easy to create armies that cost a lot of points and to accurately size the models. I've printed a small 500 point simple army of Tyranids and it works but I'm only using them for personal use right now, so no one go freaking out about my doing so. But seriously, what if we had these in tournaments?

Personal time, do whatever you want. Tournaments? No thanks. I like the showcase of modeling and painting, and paper leads to a lot of potential for abuse in games.

Just make sure they're on proper bases and proper sized and your gold.

Just don't think Tournaments will accept this at all.

If both players are fine with it, go ahead, GW isn't going to be sending its SWAT team through your window.

Personally, I would refuse to play against you in even the most casual of games let alone a tournament.

I'm sorry but if you don't have the money for monitored this is not the hobby for you. There's shadow wars where you need minimal models and can make scenery out if stuff in your house or computer games set in the 40k universe but you're kind of missing the point if you're playing full sized 40k games with bits of paper...

Ignore these guys. You play the game how you and your opponent want, not some rando on the internet's way. All that matters is your opponent doesn't care. Try talking to your local "Scene" and see who isn't a tight-ass, and play them. Maybe you get money for 40K, maybe you don't. You do you.


If we, as a community, would be more open to these ideas, maybe we wouldn't be so stagnant.

Do whatever you want among friends and family. You might want to check out Wyloch on youtube (the 4 episodes linked below). He's made loads of paper flat miniatures.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWWu9Ny8cW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foQj8PDNF9w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQe0LJv9BOE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srpNOjjt-3k

I think it would be very rude though, to bring paper marines to a store, club or convention that is run in connection with someone who sells miniatures.

If people are willing to play with you, then who cares?
Personally, I don't know why one would bother with 7th edition rules without the models to back them up. I personally wouldn't be happy with paper models unless someone wanted to try it out for one game.

This is a paper model

Depends on the effort you're putting into the paper models, the tank in the post above was pretty cool.
Casual I could easily tolerate a base sized piece of paper with names and load-outs written on them.
For a tournament your paper better be three dimensional and detailed.


That'd satisfy me.

I am sorry, but if you can't afford the hobby, then don't do it, or stick casually playing with your sister OP. Just my opinion.

 Rippy wrote:
I am sorry, but if you can't afford the hobby, then don't do it, or stick casually playing with your sister OP. Just my opinion.

Why do you get to define "this hobby" for other people? Or do you mean just because the OP asked about tournaments and only not for tournaments? If so, I agree.

I agree that tournaments should use actual miniatures only. And they should all be painted. It's a matter of sportsmanship to give the opponent a great gaming experience. Tournaments are also often connected with stores that sell miniatures. It would be very rude to bring models that basically say "Ha! I found a way not to buy the sponsor's products!" If even a small percentage of people did that stores and miniature companies might stop supporting events with either space to run them in or with prizes. I know a couple local conventions would collapse without the support of the retailers that sponsor them.

What I would tell someone on a budget is to get into terrain making and painting as a starting point. There are so many great youtube videos on it and they often use very economical materials. Many channels use dollar store materials and craft paint and make great stuff. You can end up with like what Wyloch has with his terrain and paper armies and then down the road get into real miniatures if that works out.

Paper miniatures are for home use and can be awesome for that.

Just between you and your sister do what you want. However I definitely wouldn't use them for tournaments. In casual play I wouldn't mind playing vs a paper army 2-3 times but I would want to see the paper phased out for plastic over time if it was going to be a long term thing, maybe 1 more plastic squad each time we played.
Have you tried looking on ebay for cheaper models?
I doubt stores would want you playing with paper either unless you were gradually building up a plastic army that you were buying from them, which would probably be more expensive than buying from ebay.

There's still tons of games that use cardboard chits and paper hex maps instead of miniatures and plastic terrain. They're often very well-designed and many of them fit in a small box that you can take on road trips, camping, etc. Well worth checking out if you're into paper gaming.

For 40K, the visual appeal is more important than the rules, so I wouldn't want to play against a paper proxy army myself.

No. Most of the appeal of 40k is the aesthetic value of the models, and paper models* look like garbage. You can do whatever you like in private, but if you try to bring your paper army to a pickup game you shouldn't expect to find many people willing to play against it. And you have essentially zero chance of getting to use it in any kind of tournament or formal event.

*Unless you are one of the few god-level artists making stuff that looks as good as the plastic kits but takes vastly more time and effort to build. You aren't one of those people.

They are allowed GW even sold them not that long ago its is just that most players and store owners don't like it if you play with them. I would not enjoy a game vs cut out 2d paper mini's, however good paper craft 3d mini's that have been painted to a decent standard I can enjoy. They can be made to look better than most of the unpainted blobs that are all too common.

In my opinion armies that lack conversions and/or scratch built models are just expensive toys.

Paper models can be extremely cool, if done proper. Always better than original models badly painted. Just keep in mind and respect the WYSIWYG rule.

Plasticard vehicles and green stuff sculptures/conversions are very nice too. An army like orks for example can't be played with 8 identical original plastic trukks. There shouldn't be two identical orks or two orks vehicles that look too similar.

I'd rather play a game with a sporting player that uses a lot of scratch built models than facing a win-at-any-cost dude that plays the most overpowered list available with every model painted in a golden demon level.

About tournaments there isn't a general rule, you have to ask the organizers.

hi,

newbie posted. But had to post on this.

DO NONE OF YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE LAST 10 PAGES OF ROGUE TRADER WERE THEN? the blue paper pages.....

any of you?

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Most of the appeal of 40k is the aesthetic value of the models, and paper models* look like garbage. You can do whatever you like in private, but if you try to bring your paper army to a pickup game you shouldn't expect to find many people willing to play against it. And you have essentially zero chance of getting to use it in any kind of tournament or formal event.

*Unless you are one of the few god-level artists making stuff that looks as good as the plastic kits but takes vastly more time and effort to build. You aren't one of those people.

Most of the appeal of 40k FOR YOU is the aesthetic value of the models.

You cannot speak for anyone else or the value they get out of any other aspect of the hobby.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I am sorry, but if you can't afford the hobby, then don't do it, or stick casually playing with your sister OP. Just my opinion.

Why do you get to define "this hobby" for other people? Or do you mean just because the OP asked about tournaments and only not for tournaments? If so, I agree.

I mean in tournaments. But don't expect a game with me if you are using all 2D cut outs​, glued on bases.

only been playing since a couple months into 7e.

Id have no issue playing against your paper minis. specially if they look like that tank.

Honestly most of my games are against a couple neighbors. One has some necrons that are painted, the other main opponent has most every army just primed. On of my largest games was 4k points a side. half the orks i fought didnt have heads, or arms or in some cases legs. Ive played with a slip of paper w stats taped to a base to be my figures a few time while stuff was in mail.

Tourneys.. those guys/gals are pretty anal about only using GW minis and not too happy to see 3rd party bits let alone a NON-GW figure being something in your army.

Stores - no clue.. i play in my garage..

id battle against you though. sure id love to see figures instead of paper, but i wouldnt limit you to 1 game or 3 games before you needed figures. Half the fun for me is watching the figures i fight against turn from grey plastic to black or white prime to full colored.

If, for you, 40k is just the game, play any way you can. Game away all you like, with paper troops, coke cans drop pods, books for hills, etc.
If you take that army to a mate's house, it's up to them if they play you.
Playing at a club is the same, but people will want to see some models eventually.
Playing in a store or tournament needs fully painted and based models all the way.

So, of you want to, use paper. You will get to know the game better, and get to know what kind of army you like to play.
But, as shown in so much above, expect people other than your sister to grumble or refuse to play you.
Or, get really good at making paper models

If they are paper craft like the tank pictured above, even most tournaments would have no issue playing you. Cut outs won't fly at tournaments. For pick up play I think you risk people getting salty pretty quickly if you don't start to build models at some point (for cutouts). Especially if you "power game" at all. I would play against paper minis if they were proxies for an army you were intending on building, and you slowly collected in If you just continually brought the "new hotness" and stomped my army that I spent time to collect and build, I'd opt out pretty quick. I'd also say that if I had a choice of opponents and one had minis and the other cut outs, all other things being equal I'd play the minis.

I think the best bet is to start buying some minis, I think people will be more likely to be ok with cut outs if they view you as a new player who is slowly building up an army (and see evidence of you doing so.)

As others have suggested try ebay, find some stuff you can afford. You may not end up with your ideal build but you will find some minis you can afford. Just a quick look shows me a squad of 30 gaunts for $20, Several genestealer broods 5 for $15, older hive tyrant models for $20 (some winged for $30-40). I see a mixed lot of a ton of stuff for $26.

So over time I'm sure you can make it work.

If your talking about additive printing of a 3d printed paper army. That would be cool to see. LIke one printed on a MCOR arke.

bipolarbob wrote:
hi,

newbie posted. But had to post on this.

DO NONE OF YOU REMEMBER WHAT THE LAST 10 PAGES OF ROGUE TRADER WERE THEN? the blue paper pages.....

any of you?

I remember these. Played my first few games of 40k using them back in the day. Had lots of fun.
Would I do it these days, no - but by the same token, I wouldn't play the current edition with models, either.

I would allow it provided that you promise me you will eventually replace them with real models (although if you use cardstock to build models that are near indistinguishable from the real thing, that's fine too).

This hobby is expensive so it's understandable that you may not actually have all the models you need at once. However this is a hobby first, not just a game, and the models are an integral part of it. You would be missing out on a lot of the fun if you just played it for the game aspect (especially the pride of owning a model or even army that you converted/sculpted and then painted).

Fine with me. Less money for gw seems good.

As long as your friends opponents are ok with it, and the printed paper accurately represents what it is supposed to be then I would have no problem with it. When I started playing I had a friend who used torn up pieces of paper to represent part of his Tyranid army. It was annoying because it was hard to remember what units the pieces represented and some of them were smaller than the base of a unit would be, so he could have them closer together and get more around you. Also when I started out my painting skills were not what they were now, and I am sure others here were the same. Units were painted but they did not look the greatest. And we all run into opponents who are starting out with armies like that.

So again, if it is a 3d paper that looks like the unit it is supposed to represent and is appropriately sized I would not have a problem with it and I don't think others should either. As far as tournaments go, if the rules say you have to have models, then those are the rules, if it were not specified, I would ask the tournament organizer before showing up. If they say its ok, then go with it. If anyone at the tournament has a problem with it, that's their issue.

I think playing against a nicely printed paper army would be as good as or better than playing against a poorly painted miniature army that everyone has had at one point or another.

While the game is more important as an aesthetic experience for me - I think it is more enjoyable with painted models than not - I wouldn't deny a game against paper proxies as long as some effort went into them. There are levels to it, of course - torn scraps of printer paper and color coded bottle caps would be pretty lame, while color printed and mounted card stock would be better. As long as it seems like you put some effort in it's fine.

As far as playing in stores or tournaments though, there's the store owners to think about. Most game stores provide space to play as an investment to bring customers in. If you're putting in effort to avoid being a customer while still benefiting from the space they provide it's less likely that they'll be hospitable to you.

As this thread indicates, paper models may make the grumps at the gamestore flinch, but they are absolutely a viable option for play with anyone who isn't going to be that way.

In my day, we were young, poor, and company's didn't make as much as they do now, so everything was cardboard and improve. The original Battletech boxed sets even came with cardboard standees to use for Mech's. (Google "Battletech cardboard" for examples) And, as mentioned above, the 2nd Ed 40k box had a card standee Ork dreadnought. (Although, as I recall, I made my own out of the missile launcher arm from a Destroid toy, some ork bits from a buggy kit, and a couple of the cheapie AT-ST walker kits. It was ugly, but it was orky. )

So, if I were playing you, I'd gladly play your paper army. And if I was feeling snooty and felt it wasn't up to snuff, I would lend my photoshop skills and supply of printer cardstock to help you make an even nicer version. So long as you're rolling dice and telling stories, you're doing it right.

I'll throw in as a jerk who would turn his nose up at the prospect of playing against 2d paper armies. As much effort as people put in to making their armies look decent for the tabletop, it's a tad disrespectful to play against a fully painted army with something you printed out of your DeskJet, especially at an event or tournament. Between friends and family, do whatever you feel like. But don't expect other opponents to relish the thought of playing against you, or store owners/tournament organizers to even allow you to play at all.

Hell, if people play this game without models and just paper, you can play with paper models.

Tournaments? No. You need actual models.

At home? Use whatever the feth you want. Bottle caps, coke cans, phones, I don't care. It's your house, your rules.

At a gaming store? Eh... Maybe? Make sure you support your gaming space, and probably ask the owner/manager if it's okay. One thing that's pretty legitimate is using paper models UNTIL YOU BUY THE REAL MODELS. So, let's say you want to pick up Grav Centurions, you use paper stand-ins until you save up enough to afford them.

I find it amusing that people are denouncing people who say they would not play against paper models. You're doing the same thing you're accusing them of doing.

Secondly: As others have said, our opinions don't matter. The only ones that matter are those of the people you may actually play against.

As for me...The modeling aspect is part of the game for me. I associate heavy proxying without any movement towards getting/painting the models with power gamers due to past experience, and paper models would create the same associations in my head.
Tournament? Definitely not.
Random man/woman at the game store or elsewhere? Only if they were just getting into 40k and I were teaching them how to play, and they were building up their army (meaning they were buying models as they could paint, and they were actually making progress).
Friend who is just starting to get into the game? Sure, for awhile, but eventually I'd likely stop (same as random guy at the store).

In short...If you're building up and using them as temporary proxies, sure. Otherwise, I'd not play you for long with them, if at all.

 troa wrote:
I find it amusing that people are denouncing people who say they would not play against paper models. You're doing the same thing you're accusing them of doing.

Secondly: As others have said, our opinions don't matter. The only ones that matter are those of the people you may actually play against.

As for me...The modeling aspect is part of the game for me. I associate heavy proxying without any movement towards getting/painting the models with power gamers due to past experience, and paper models would create the same associations in my head.
Tournament? Definitely not.
Random man/woman at the game store or elsewhere? Only if they were just getting into 40k and I were teaching them how to play, and they were building up their army (meaning they were buying models as they could paint, and they were actually making progress).
Friend who is just starting to get into the game? Sure, for awhile, but eventually I'd likely stop (same as random guy at the store).

In short...If you're building up and using them as temporary proxies, sure. Otherwise, I'd not play you for long with them, if at all.

This...

I said earlier no I wouldn't play against a paper army but made the suggestion that if you can't afford the miniatures this is not the hobby for you and suggested maybe the 40k computer games or small kill team or SW games. A big part of the hobby is the modelling, converting and painting side of things and unless we are talking about some really high quality 3D paper prints (which I am assuming the OP is not) I would find it rather disrespectful if someone kept turning up with bits of paper and I was called "grumpy" or whatever because I don't want to put countless hours of effort into my army, not to mention funds and someone else wants to not have to bother.

Some may say that it is unfair on new players but I have and will continue to be probably even more engaged with new players since I tend to be the one in store that staff ask if I'll help out a newbie and give them a game to teach them the ropes since I now play at least three times a week and most weeks it's more like 6-8 games average. In my opinion I am much more appreciative of a new player showing some commitment and buying and painting a single squad at a time and I'll happily take on their single tactical squad with one of mine. I would find it even more offensive if I was one of those new players or god forbid a kid saving up to buy my next box of models while someone else just printed out an army. If someone doesn't want to take the journey of building a full army and putting some love in, there are commission painters who will do that for you if you're not that way inclined. If you can't afford that however and you just want to print an army to save you money it's a slap in the face to everyone that makes that commitment to the hobby and to the gaming group.

As people have said before if you're at home and just playing with you're sister that's fine but my impression since the question is being asked to the wider community is that you want to know if it's acceptable in said community. To me the answer from everyone should be a flat no.

The big issue is where do you draw the line? Do you let people print out a full 1850 point army to play with? you shouldn't. If you're that new you should be playing really small games to get a good grip on the game. how long should someone have to wait for that paper army to get replaced? and how slowly will it be replaced? This is the reason why I am happy that the local store has started giving people bonuses in game for fully painted armies because once people started accepting games against even not undercoated miniatures the quality of the armies aesthetically has really dropped to a point where I have seen even empty bases used for models that people can't be bothered building and painting. Once it was a full marker drone unit... like how hard is a drone to paint? really.

Yes there were paper models back in rogue trader but we have moved on since then so that's not an excuse.

I don't like the tone of some people with their backhanded comments about others who dont want to play an army that isn't miniatures because it would degrade the part of the hobby they enjoy most. People are entitled to their opinions but to me it shows a lack of respect for the people who are making sacrifices financially and with their time to put miniature armies on the table. If you want to play against paper cutouts fine go ahead but, just as I will not appreciate playing against someone who deploys 1500 points of grey plastic, I will not accept a game against whatever your home printer has spat out and I am not a bad person for it.

If I'm wrong OP please feel free to post pictures of your really great 3D paper printed Nids as I really enjoy seeing the ingenuity of people in this hobby and I'm always open to be proved wrong.

While I have no issues with how people arrive at the armies they use, be it purchased models, handcrafted models, or printed representations, when I faced an opponent that fielded paper cut outs in place of actual units without him informing me first, it really did put me out of the game. If he had informed me before hand, or if the cut outs were actually handcrafted models, it would have been less jarring.

My younger brother has been crafting his own models from paper and cardboard for decades, from transformers that actually transform to his first Reaver Titan, he puts a lot of imagination and ingenuity into crafting units he'd like to have yet couldn't afford at the time. It's a joy to play versus his armies because you can appreciate his dedication to the hobby by the effort he puts into crafting his models.

I guess my message is to start the hobby on your terms but don't be satisfied with just your starting point. The hobby is more than the game, it's the artistry, the lore, and the community. Have fun. Talk to you opponents. Build a narrative. Grow. Be inclusive, not exclusive.

And welcome to the hobby!

SJ

 Peregrine wrote:
No. Most of the appeal of 40k is the aesthetic value of the models, and paper models* look like garbage. You can do whatever you like in private, but if you try to bring your paper army to a pickup game you shouldn't expect to find many people willing to play against it. And you have essentially zero chance of getting to use it in any kind of tournament or formal event.

*Unless you are one of the few god-level artists making stuff that looks as good as the plastic kits but takes vastly more time and effort to build. You aren't one of those people.

This.

I'll echo Pr3Mu5 a little-it depends how much is paper. One squad that you have yet to buy in an 1850 game? No biggie.

Three Riptides in a 1,000 point game? Biggie.

It's not just making "the grumps at the game store flinch" it's actually really rude to the store operator to bring them there. It's waving a giant flag saying "I'm here to play but not to buy anything.". And if such an approach was imitated by others, that could seriously damage the support of local events by those in the gaming business.

The same would be true if you brought an all 3d printed army. You'd basically be telling the host that you're there to take advantage of the terrain and space but will never be contributing towards the sole means a business operates-- selling products.

For at home gaming go ahead. For private clubs, it will be about the scope of the mandate of the club. If you want to start a pro paper club, go ahead.

Saddly the responses in this thread are kinda why ive stayed OUT of game stores and only been to GW store here twice.

Go in for a game, my army is primed. get told to leave cuz it dont have 3 colors.. Go in for game to nother store after having put on 3 colors, get told go home it dont have 5 colors. Spend half a year painting an army, play in a tourney to check it out. get told my army is straight gak.. feth playing in stores.

like said before dont care what someone uses 3dprint paper. i enjoy the lore and storyline.. but i enjoy the battles, the dice rolling. id rather play a battle against someone with paper or even unprimed minis then someone whos going to complain about how crappy i painted a tactical marine, how i should have drybrushed instead of washed it a bunch..

I play tabletop wargames for the full aesthetic appearance that the game provides. I've not interest in playing against printed out paper armies. That being said, I'd let you run one of my second armies, or help you find ways of getting real miniatures and getting into painting them. Money is always tight around hobbies but there are plenty of ways to source decent miniatures for relatively cheap (eBay is a good start).

If 40K is really far outside of your budget there are a lot of ways to address that. SWA is an excellent choice - making terrain at home is pretty easy, and you can get into for $20-40 worth of models (second hand or not). Heck, some big buyers could set you up with a dozen models for free. Failing that, maybe skip proper 40K and try some other smaller games first. Money will come with time and you can move into what you want.

I'm a big believer in a proper wargame being a fun, exciting, attractive experience - and that each player should bring "their part" to the game unless someone is hosting (I frequently host large Old West games where I provide everything, people just show up to play). I think it's bad form to show up with unpainted minis, lackluster terrain, no dice, templates, or even knowing the rules. That's my personal opinion, but a lot of people won't agree - and that's fine. I think it'd be a bit rude to show up with a printed paper army unannounced to your opponent. Much in the same way I feel it's a bit rude to run a game at a convention...and when players show up the minis/table/terrain aren't painted/finished etc. Just bad form.

Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

Games Workshop Warhammer World is currently selling a range of paper cut out miniatures as part of their 30th Anniversary Rogue Trader reissue.

ssisal wrote:
Saddly the responses in this thread are kinda why ive stayed OUT of game stores and only been to GW store here twice.

Go in for a game, my army is primed. get told to leave cuz it dont have 3 colors.. Go in for game to nother store after having put on 3 colors, get told go home it dont have 5 colors. Spend half a year painting an army, play in a tourney to check it out. get told my army is straight gak.. feth playing in stores.

like said before dont care what someone uses 3dprint paper. i enjoy the lore and storyline.. but i enjoy the battles, the dice rolling. id rather play a battle against someone with paper or even unprimed minis then someone whos going to complain about how crappy i painted a tactical marine, how i should have drybrushed instead of washed it a bunch..

Oh come on, I'm sure no one at a tournament told you that your army was straight gak. The judges have a grading rubric for painting which most frequently awards points for having at least three colors, having some kind of shading such as a wash, and some kind of highlighting such as drybrushing. If your models don't have one of those things, you don't get the points for it. Most of the time they're not even looking at how neat your final results are, just that you at least made the effort. Base coating in three colors, washing and drybrushing is commonly held as the "tabletop standard", and it is not only a great way to develop your skill and eye as a painter, it's fairly easy and quick to achieve once you have some practice. Those kinds of standards at stores and events aren't put in place so that people can scoff at your army or proclaim themselves gatekeepers over the hobby - they exist to encourage people to learn and develop as painters and take pride in their work. I'm sure if you have any questions about ways you could improve and would be willing to learn, the staff at your local stores would be more than willing to give you some tips. So would everyone who frequents the Painting and Modeling section of this forum.

A game is meant to be a fun bit of leisure time. How you have fun is entirely up to you and no one should hold you hostage for their fun. However, this goes both ways. If someone does not have fun playing with paper models do not be mad at them for not playing with you. Others though will have no problem, I personally wouldn't care but that's because my fun isn't derived primarily from the minis. At the end of the day a game, any game can be played however you and the other players agree that makes it fun for ya'll. No right way to have fun only infinite wrong ways.

OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

That said, the sizes of the paper cut-outs should ideally be decently close to the actual models.

Martel732 wrote:
Fine with me. Less money for gw seems good.

Why are you even here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

I like this game because of the aesthetic, actually.

There isn't much better in the world for me than having a battle with two painted armies against each other.

But thank you for putting everyone who doesn't want to play against cheap looking bits of paper in the same basket.

I don't even play with or against unpainted miniatures anymore. I wouldn't opt out of gaming with paper miniatures on the table because I think the person is cheap or a peasant, but simply that it would be lacking elements I find enjoyable in the hobby. For others that it works for, I hope they have fun.

I still maintain though that it has no place in tournaments or in any venue/event connected with the sale of miniatures.

It's down to the reasoning behind the army, to me. If you're playing a paper army because you're working on a shoestring budget, you want to try out the game/an army/a unit before dumping money into it, and you intend to get models at some point, I will grumble but I'll roll with it. If you're playing a paper army because you're on Martel's whiny bandwagon and have no intention of ever getting any real models, then no. I shall put my monocle back in and sneer with the rest.

The difference here is between "can't" and "won't". If your issue is merely budgetary and you're trying to get a sense of the game before dumping boatloads of money into it you'll get a more favourable response (I will be helpful, answer questions, give recommendations for stretching a small budget further, suggest you look at other, cheaper miniatures games...). If you've got some moral point to make, or don't see why people who have dumped hundreds of hours into their armies might be annoyed to see you trying to sit down at the same table with half an hour's worth of paper and cardboard, or otherwise could build an actual army but choose not to, then I've got no sympathy.

The bit that frequently gets left by the wayside in these discussions in favour of strawmen ("You don't care about the game!"/"You only care about the money!") is that most wargamers care a lot more about the effort involved/whether the army looks good than how much you spent on it. Someone who has spent thousands of dollars on Forge World models and plonked them down unpainted is going to get a much more hostile reception than someone who scrounged together some secondhand Orks on a shoestring budget, scratchbuilt all the vehicles out of cardboard and old toy trucks, and gave the whole lot a solid, respectable paintjob (with watered-down bulk acrylics when miniature paint proved too expensive).

Paper proxies as an end result rather than a stopgap are never going to fly. That doesn't mean you should accept that 40k is ridiculously expensive and give up, that means you should try and find a small-budget approach that lets you end up with models and preserve the illusion of the 41st Milennium we're attempting to create when we play a game, rather than showing up with an army made of graphics glitches.

(For inspiration/an example here's a 'Tyranid' army made of a mixture of Lizardmen models and dinosaur toys: http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/kurindans.html.)

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

That said, the sizes of the paper cut-outs should ideally be decently close to the actual models.

Well, that was a great way to personally attack almost everyone who's posted in this thread, so good job for that.

In all seriousness, if you are into this game, on the tabletop, you're into the miniatures and their associated narrative and aesthetic qualities. The rules are not that good (at least not at the moment) and there are plenty of other games to play that a frankly better as well as being less expensive in terms of both time and money. 40k and its communities of fans has always been centered around the hobby itself. A person's economic situation has nothing to do with how well they will be accepted - but the time and effort they put into the hobby, and the respect that they show it and other players will. There is nothing fun, for me, in spending hundreds of hours painting a bunch of plastic models to the best of my personal ability if I'm just going to be playing it against paper tokens that took absolutely no time, effort or creativity to produce.

I have seen some awesome paper craft minis, and would have no issues vs'ing them on a table.. but pieces of paper with spezmarine written on it wouldn't make me happy

What if someone printed their models with this printer?

Youn wrote:
What if someone printed their models with this printer?...

Slight difference between paper proxies and advanced 3d printers.

And I suspect that you'll find pretty quickly that 3d-printing your army isn't significantly cheaper than just going and buying it off GW.

Actually, it is cheaper in plastic. As 1 roll of ABS is enough to print about 15 rhinos. One roll costs 22.50.

But, having said that, most home built 3d printers take alot of messing with to actually print in high enough resolution to actually be acceptable for miniatures.

For reference, I own a reprap prusa i3.

I only really use it to print extra weapon for things like my razorbacks. And other items like objective markers.

Also, that bust is a paper bust.

I would play you, but you would have to make sure I didnt bring my squirt gun, because I dont think I could help myself with the temptation

If you go to the tutorials section of Dakka Dakka there is a poster who has a bunch of thrifty guides. He has a youtube channel, and on there he describes how to make some pretty printed card models.


And put away the super soakers, I believe he does even suggest lamination.

 Luciferian wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
OP:

What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

I would be willing to play against a D&D style paper army, depending upon the army composition. If you did print-outs for the latest net list, then no thanks. But then, I wouldn't want to play against the latest net list even if it were a plastic army.

That said, the sizes of the paper cut-outs should ideally be decently close to the actual models.

Well, that was a great way to personally attack almost everyone who's posted in this thread, so good job for that.

In all seriousness, if you are into this game, on the tabletop, you're into the miniatures and their associated narrative and aesthetic qualities. The rules are not that good (at least not at the moment) and there are plenty of other games to play that a frankly better as well as being less expensive in terms of both time and money. 40k and its communities of fans has always been centered around the hobby itself. A person's economic situation has nothing to do with how well they will be accepted - but the time and effort they put into the hobby, and the respect that they show it and other players will. There is nothing fun, for me, in spending hundreds of hours painting a bunch of plastic models to the best of my personal ability if I'm just going to be playing it against paper tokens that took absolutely no time, effort or creativity to produce.

It's Tradito one of the most hostile users of this forum; what did you expect?


Either way I wouldn't play 40k with you OP; I would play SW:A or Kill Team. But not one where I had to move an army of models to the store, you stand a chance to break them everytime they're moved.

 Elbows wrote:
I play tabletop wargames for the full aesthetic appearance that the game provides. I've not interest in playing against printed out paper armies. That being said, I'd let you run one of my second armies, or help you find ways of getting real miniatures and getting into painting them. Money is always tight around hobbies but there are plenty of ways to source decent miniatures for relatively cheap (eBay is a good start).

If 40K is really far outside of your budget there are a lot of ways to address that. SWA is an excellent choice - making terrain at home is pretty easy, and you can get into for $20-40 worth of models (second hand or not). Heck, some big buyers could set you up with a dozen models for free. Failing that, maybe skip proper 40K and try some other smaller games first. Money will come with time and you can move into what you want.

I'm a big believer in a proper wargame being a fun, exciting, attractive experience - and that each player should bring "their part" to the game unless someone is hosting (I frequently host large Old West games where I provide everything, people just show up to play). I think it's bad form to show up with unpainted minis, lackluster terrain, no dice, templates, or even knowing the rules. That's my personal opinion, but a lot of people won't agree - and that's fine. I think it'd be a bit rude to show up with a printed paper army unannounced to your opponent. Much in the same way I feel it's a bit rude to run a game at a convention...and when players show up the minis/table/terrain aren't painted/finished etc. Just bad form.

Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

I think this is a well-measured, excellent response. I completely agree.

!00% I'd play against paper. Hell I play against bare bases and plastic disks for drop pods. Its about rolling dice, taking minis off the table, having fun and relaxing. This is a game people you already use your imagination to pew pew why not just imagine a fully painted model? Maybe we play for different reasons but me personally I could still visualize a paper space marine chopping through a squad of firewarriors just as easily as a plastic one.

Maybe I'm just lucky and my local game store is chill but we spend money on soda, candy, books, dice, dice bags, they have 3d printed goods; its not just 40k keeping them afloat, magic alone does that. Just to make it clear I have a reaver, 4 knights, two warhounds, a storm lord, too much Tau.. too much.. Nids, GK, Eldar, Skittari, Daemons, Inquisition and you can use any of them if you play w/ me hell its prolly the only time I'll ever see my titans in use. Plus letting someone play with a model they never thought they would see let alone use puts a smile on my face xD. Some people aren't lucky enough to have the spare cash its no reason to belittle them they could be really great people and you are passing up the chance to form a friendship just because they don't have the same level of investment as you? That's just...

Instead of putting someone down for having no minis how about you offer to let them use one of your own armies? So instead of saying "No, I wont play you because you have no/paper minis." look at the fact someone is interested in the hobby and be like "Hey Instead of playing that paper SM army why not try a game with one of these?" Maybe you could even sell them that old army you have that's gathering dust to fuel your current one.

 Lance845 wrote:
Most of the appeal of 40k FOR YOU is the aesthetic value of the models.

You cannot speak for anyone else or the value they get out of any other aspect of the hobby.

Yes, thank you for stating the obvious that when I post my opinion on something it is, in fact, my opinion. If you want to play against models that look like trash go ahead, I'm not going to stop you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
What you have to understand is that many of the people who play 40k have a would-be bourgeois, snobbish, elitist attitude towards the game. So, no, of course they wouldn't play against your cheap paper model army, you peasant. Go back to plowing the fields and leave the war-gaming to the fine gentlemen in suits and top hats.

Other people, however, actually enjoy playing the game and don't view it merely as a faux status symbol.

Alternatively, the aesthetic value of the models is a major part of the appeal of the game for many people, myself included. It has nothing to do with "LOL YOU PEASANT", a game against an unpainted or paper cutout army is just not something I enjoy because it looks like on the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheBoy wrote:
Instead of putting someone down for having no minis how about you offer to let them use one of your own armies?

Because some of us don't have other armies, and even the people that do don't usually haul a bunch of extra armies to a random pickup game.

The use of flat paper terrain templates seems (sadly) common in Warmachine. I'm surprised no-one's taken the next step and started using cylinders of the appropriate diameter and height (the "actual" height of a model is defined in its stats, and doesn't actually match the size of the miniature) with a picture of what it's meant to be stuck to the front (or its name written on, I suppose).

That'd work better with the rules of 40k than flat bits of paper.

I wouldn't look down on you for doing this - the arguments that "40k's expensive and if you can't afford it, then do something else" are pathetic; snobbery and envy aren't pleasant to see - but I wouldn't be keen to play you. Like Peregrine, part of the appeal for me is two painted forces on a modelled and painted battlefield. If you've got friends who are fine with it, then more power to you.

Depending on where you live you can get single figures off of eBay or some bitz sellers for relatively cheap and play something like Inq28 or Hinterlands/AoS28. Add in making terrain and scenarios and you can have a very complete and very rewarding miniature hobby in a warhammer universe for very little money.

I agree that saying "if you don't have the money, don't play" is dumb. It's far better to explain why paper miniatures aren't something I'd like to see at tournaments, stores or conventions rather than just saying that.

In follow up to my previous post,

Obviously fully assembled and nicely painted is the ideal, but I'd rather play against something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srpNOjjt-3k&index=4&list=PLOt6UN-cmqk1zHORa-HfJ5JFw7i2ChTF1

than half assembled / unpainted miniatures.

Second hand miniatures, lots of scrubbing and lots of scratch building will get you very far on very few dollars.

I'm not sure it's very applicable to tyranids though, you might want to check Imperial Guard or Orks instead for massively cheap yet very time intensive armies.


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 Elbows wrote:
Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

Actually 40K is one of the most affordable hobbies out there.
Try another hobby for once, most sports will set you back more than an MSRP 40K army.
And let's not get started on any one of the expensive hobbies, like cars, bikes, LARP, Airsoft, TCG, Pool, Movies, ...

morgoth wrote:
Second hand miniatures, lots of scrubbing and lots of scratch building will get you very far on very few dollars.

I'm not sure it's very applicable to tyranids though, you might want to check Imperial Guard or Orks instead for massively cheap yet very time intensive armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

Actually 40K is one of the most affordable hobbies out there.
Try another hobby for once, most sports will set you back more than an MSRP 40K army.
And let's not get started on any one of the expensive hobbies, like cars, bikes, LARP, Airsoft, TCG, Pool, Movies, ...

TCG...cardboard crack.
You go to a pre-release, everybody around you draws amazing stuff, you get rubbish...logical response "Well, that sucked, guess I don't have the luck for this game".
TCG player response "I'll pre-order a Booster Box, then trade for what I need" on failing at that it's off to ebay and Star City Games to buy from the 2nd hand market.

 roflmajog wrote:
Just between you and your sister do what you want. However I definitely wouldn't use them for tournaments. In casual play I wouldn't mind playing vs a paper army 2-3 times but I would want to see the paper phased out for plastic over time if it was going to be a long term thing, maybe 1 more plastic squad each time we played.
Have you tried looking on ebay for cheaper models?
I doubt stores would want you playing with paper either unless you were gradually building up a plastic army that you were buying from them, which would probably be more expensive than buying from ebay.

Like this guy says, I'd probably be willing to indulge you if you were trying out and army or filling in the gaps for your halfway-done forces. I probably wouldn't play against you regularily though, and certainly not if this paper army was a permanent thing rather than a temporary solution to your lack of funds.

A store definitely wouldn't be okay with you playing there with paper, I wouldn't suggest trying that. Among friends or family (or any player not against it), go for it! These guys that are saying 'if you're poor this hobby isn't for you' are un-fething-believable. Screw 'em.

nareik wrote:
In follow up to my previous post,

Obviously fully assembled and nicely painted is the ideal, but I'd rather play against something like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srpNOjjt-3k&index=4&list=PLOt6UN-cmqk1zHORa-HfJ5JFw7i2ChTF1

than half assembled / unpainted miniatures.

This, nothing else to add, really.
Good looking 2D paper troops like that beat Space Marine torsos without heads and arms any day.
And some of the stuff you can find online, especially the papercraft stuff is pretty amazing and I totally wouldn't mind playing against it:



Playing with friends, buds and in a dedicated club everything goes as long as your opponent gives his okay.
Of course, tournaments are a different beast and organizers should be consulted and send pictures of what you plan to bring, but expect 90% (especially if sponsored by a store) of them to say no, but in the end it is their event and they give the OK...
Independent stores it depends, bringing paper print outs or 3D printed models is an absolute no-go as a stranger, if you buy stuff there often/regularly they might however be okay with it if you do it one or two times to test out what you want to buy next via proxies, provided you ask.
Don't even try in GW stores if you value your reputation and want to be able to pu a foot inside the store ever again.

TheBoy wrote:
!00% I'd play against paper. Hell I play against bare bases and plastic disks for drop pods. Its about rolling dice, taking minis off the table, having fun and relaxing. This is a game people you already use your imagination to pew pew why not just imagine a fully painted model? Maybe we play for different reasons but me personally I could still visualize a paper space marine chopping through a squad of firewarriors just as easily as a plastic one.

Maybe I'm just lucky and my local game store is chill but we spend money on soda, candy, books, dice, dice bags, they have 3d printed goods; its not just 40k keeping them afloat, magic alone does that. Just to make it clear I have a reaver, 4 knights, two warhounds, a storm lord, too much Tau.. too much.. Nids, GK, Eldar, Skittari, Daemons, Inquisition and you can use any of them if you play w/ me hell its prolly the only time I'll ever see my titans in use. Plus letting someone play with a model they never thought they would see let alone use puts a smile on my face xD. Some people aren't lucky enough to have the spare cash its no reason to belittle them they could be really great people and you are passing up the chance to form a friendship just because they don't have the same level of investment as you? That's just...

Instead of putting someone down for having no minis how about you offer to let them use one of your own armies? So instead of saying "No, I wont play you because you have no/paper minis." look at the fact someone is interested in the hobby and be like "Hey Instead of playing that paper SM army why not try a game with one of these?" Maybe you could even sell them that old army you have that's gathering dust to fuel your current one.

I agree with this post entirely. Use your imagination. I have played against a person who had a few completed tyranid models, some not completed ones, and a lot of paper markers. I could still imagine a horde of tyranids advancing towards my space marines who were trying desperately to gun them down before the Tyranids closed. I also played against an imperial guard person who did not have enough models, and I let him use some of my space marine tanks that I wasn't using to represent a leman russ or chimera. It did not ruin the game.

I find it funny the people who are saying that they would never play against someone who was using paper models or markers or incomplete models. Did all of you have a fully assembled and painted army when you started playing? I am guessing no, you had a few models that were assembled and painted, then maybe some that were not painted, and you may have even used some markers for models. Also, if you say you won't play against someone who doesn't have a fully painted complete army, does the quality of their paint job matter? If their painting is not as good as you would like does it ruin it for you?

My advice to the OP, find others in your area who don't mind you using paper models. As you can see by the responses here there are people out there who would play against you. If you find several people you can form a group and you can set up your own tournament. There is nothing that says a tournament has to be run by a store.

I personally wouldn't want to play against strips of paper, but the paper models that others have shown would be fine with me. So long as the things your using look like the thing your trying to represent im happy. Im also happy to play against unpainted or partially painted models as i can say from experience, that can take bloody ages. I regularly have more models unfinished painting wise than finished.

I also wouldnt mind bringing extra models down to lend someone for a game either so they didnt have to use so many paper ones, same goes for terrain. I think i agree with some other posters that there is a bit of an elitist attitude amongst parts of the community, but thats inevitable with most gaming communities. For every elitist who wont play with me because my army is half finished, and half with only its base coat on it, there are 3 more who will and are of a similar mind to me. So its really the others who lose out in the end.

IF your new and just cant afford to buy like 500 points at a time [most of us cant] make friendly with some local gamers and see if they will either a) lend models for games to you from their collection, or b) ask if they mind playing small scale games to help you get used to the game and to learn what models would best expand your army with your hard earned and limited cash. i ve done this with like 5 or more of my friends over the last year and now they all have caught the 40k bug =D [and i have 5 more mates to play with, and my local store now gets more regular business so everyone is a winner!]


edit: grammar/spelling

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

 roflmajog wrote:
Just between you and your sister do what you want. However I definitely wouldn't use them for tournaments. In casual play I wouldn't mind playing vs a paper army 2-3 times but I would want to see the paper phased out for plastic over time if it was going to be a long term thing, maybe 1 more plastic squad each time we played.
Have you tried looking on ebay for cheaper models?
I doubt stores would want you playing with paper either unless you were gradually building up a plastic army that you were buying from them, which would probably be more expensive than buying from ebay.

Like this guy says, I'd probably be willing to indulge you if you were trying out and army or filling in the gaps for your halfway-done forces. I probably wouldn't play against you regularily though, and certainly not if this paper army was a permanent thing rather than a temporary solution to your lack of funds.

A store definitely wouldn't be okay with you playing there with paper, I wouldn't suggest trying that. Among friends or family (or any player not against it), go for it! These guys that are saying 'if you're poor this hobby isn't for you' are un-fething-believable. Screw 'em.

It might depend on the store honestly, if you are slowly buying models from them while using paper to supplement, some might be ok with it. If I were an owner and had a customer who bought say a box of models once a month, while playing with paper I'd be ok with it, it might encourage others to do the same. In the end sales are sales. That said if you aren't buying stuff, and working on your army, then I would be against it as the owner.

Now this is just my opinion, but I feel the game would benefit if people would give guys like this 1-2 small point games. I know lots of people that like the models, but they stop dead from actually attempting the hobby stating that any time they approach anyone they're told. "Come back when you have a fully painted 1850 army."

Sometimes I feel like this is one of the few hobbies where a large portion of the population actively works against pulling new people into the hobby.

I know I had bad experiences with this kind of behavior where I couldn't even get people willing to do a quick fight against dark vengeance box set pieces as a hello when I started and felt completely snubbed right after trying to join the community.

I'm not saying devote your entire day to guys like the OP, but I think it would do a world of wonder for the hobby in general to give him a quick 500- point game once and add you would like him to have a squad or two next time you played.

 TheIngeniusNoob wrote:
So I play 40k with my sister. We don't have a lot of money so i used DND miniatures to represent the armies. I've seen the prices that GW puts on their Tyranid miniatures and have also seen some of them 3d printed. But what if I printed out of paper? It would be easy to create armies that cost a lot of points and to accurately size the models. I've printed a small 500 point simple army of Tyranids and it works but I'm only using them for personal use right now, so no one go freaking out about my doing so. But seriously, what if we had these in tournaments?

If you and your sister are having fun at home, please continue to do so! If your friends are up for it too, great! The hobby has room for all!

Tournaments? You'll more than likely be told no, sorry.

I agree, Hatachi.

I feel the '2.4k standard game' the playerbase fixated on did a lot more to kill Warhammer Fantasy than anything GW did.

This is one of the reasons for the success for AoS; you can just grab a few models and get going.

I'm sure with time AoS will bloat to steadfasthorde MCstar shenanigans that eventually killed fantasy.

In the mean time, lets enjoy the 40k rule reboot until everyone starts deciding the 'correct way to play' is with $1000 armies.

I would play small 500-1000 point games with new players all day. I would even show them what I've learned about Ebay-fu, the cheapest ways to get miniatures, and help them model and paint their army.

At the moment I have about 1700 points of Dark Angels bikes and terminators that I got for less than $200 by buying the DV set, using /r/MiniSwap to trade all of the things I didn't want for things I did, then using Ebay bits stores and a lot of conversion work to fill in the gaps. I'm not even setting them on the table until they're finished.

Start collecting sets and each of the forces from the DV set can be had for about $60, and I would be happy to play against any one of those. That's pretty much the cost of any other high-end board game or miniatures game out there. Even a kid or someone with a tight budget can set aside that much if they're truly interested in something. And seeing some of the amazing scratch builds out there that are so close to the real thing proves that a will can find a way within basically any means.

There just aren't many excuses for not having SOME kind of models. One valid reason people have brought up is that you would like to test out the game or a certain unit's rules and are using proxies temporarily. But even that is for one or two games. If the question is whether or not it's acceptable to permanently use 2D, printed proxies because you're either too lazy, too cheap or too uninterested to invest a minimal amount of time and effort, even when people are more than willing to offer their own time and resources to help you out, then my answer is NO. And I'm not ashamed of that at all.

morgoth wrote:
Second hand miniatures, lots of scrubbing and lots of scratch building will get you very far on very few dollars.

I'm not sure it's very applicable to tyranids though, you might want to check Imperial Guard or Orks instead for massively cheap yet very time intensive armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Wargaming can be an expensive hobby. 40K is one of the worst (expensive models with exceptionally large forces considered "normal").that I've seen as far as cost. There's no shame in being unable to dive into it. There are heaps of thing I know I can't afford to do that I'd like (heck wargaming is the cheaper of my two main hobbies, sadly). I'd imagine 85% of the people on this board started by buying a single blister or a small box at an early age, and slowly (sometimes very slowly) expanding into the full game mode. It happens, no worries there.

Actually 40K is one of the most affordable hobbies out there.
Try another hobby for once, most sports will set you back more than an MSRP 40K army.
And let's not get started on any one of the expensive hobbies, like cars, bikes, LARP, Airsoft, TCG, Pool, Movies, ...

Morgoth, I meant in terms of wargaming...40K is one of the most expensive. I agree it pales in comparison to other hobbies. My other main hobby is firearms...so...(sigh) yeah. But some people are put off by 40K and assume that's how much wargames cost when in reality that's not the case for the vast majority of other games. Only Flames of War is really up there in my mind as being as expensive.

Elbows, I agree that it isn't on the level of firearms/ cars etc expensive in the long term. The issue I come across is that compared to other participatory group hobbies like sports it has a larger buy in to do a quick overview. Most martial arts dojos or adult hobby level sports teams will usually loan you gear to give it a go once or twice. They want to give you that quick taste to try to pull you in.

At home with friends and family, Yes. If you're starting out use lego or salt shakers or what ever you have on hand.

At the FLGS, No.

At tournaments, No.

It is tabletop miniature wargaming. A large part of the game/hobby is the assembly, painting and fielding of miniatures.

I find it really amusing that;
1. This conversation is still ongoing and,
2. Some people are creating excuses based on hypotheticals that don’t apply to the question posed.
The OP has said that they have already printed out a 500 point army of nids and played game with their sister at home. Therefore the argument that it might be alright for someone to play with paper cut-outs if they just want to try the game out is irrelevant. The OP has already tried the game.
Then there is the suggestion that those who say they wouldn’t want to play against the paper army are suggesting they build a 1500-1850 point army and paint it and come back. No-one has said this in fact I said quite the opposite. I suggested that the poster try SWA or explore some of the other cheaper ways to be involved in 40k. Investing in a single box of minis isn’t the same as building a full army. On top of that as I have already stated I will quite happily play new players with a unit or two while they slowly build and will happily give my advice on building up an army slowly and for as little money as possible <cough> ebay <cough>. It’s ok if you don’t have the money to build a full army immediately and I’m not going to say you can’t be part of the hobby, I will even try and help you find ways to mitigate the issue but it isn’t appropriate to use it as an excuse to try and get an exemption from buying miniatures for a miniature wargame.
Now I will move onto the suggestion that we should give them some of our minis to play with so the new people can try the game out. Firstly I can’t tell you how many times I have actually done this myself but it is a lot and even seen others amongst our regulars do the same. Someone said that “not everyone lugs a full second army to a club so we can’t” and I agree to an extent. I generally tend to bring more than I need and will happily offer someone some of my units split down the middle or grab a load of stuff and tell them to take what they like the look of most for a mini game. The issue with this is that this person is not trying out the game, they have already tried it out as per the Ops first post. This person has already printed them and used them at home. They know how the game plays and they have specifically said that the only reason they haven’t bought minis is because of the price.
So… now I’ll move onto some other repeated suggestions. The first of which is the parroted point about the quality of paper 3D minis. If they are really finely crafted out of paper and the quality is at the level of some of the previously posted pictures then fine…. Right? Well I suggested that this doesn’t apply in this case because if it did we’d have been made aware as such earlier and probably in the original post. I even made the suggestion that they share images of these print outs in an earlier post. They have not obliged so I can only assume that they are not one of the few people who can make such amazing pieces of craftsmanship. I would therefore suggest people stop making the point about the quality of the paper model because it is again irrelevant.
I’ll now address the point a number of people have made about there being a snobbish or elitist element of the community. I would suggest that just because our views on what make a game fun differ from yours does not make us less of a person than you, which is what you infer when you suggest we turn our nose up at people. I think you’ll find pretty much everyone who has said they wouldn’t play against such an army has not said no-one ever should. Most of the people on here have said that if you want to play games like that feel free it just doesn’t fall into what we consider fun. Maybe some of the people who think that others are elitist for not adhering to the idea that 40k is just “rolling dice and having fun” are themselves elitist as you think you know better than us. It is just indicative of some peoples inability to accept the views of others. I mean… this is a long post and if you have read this far I hope you see where I am coming from and if not well you’ve kind of proven my point.
As a last point I will repeat a point I made in an earlier reply stating that I think it would be disrespectful to expect someone to play against a paper army purely because you don’t want to pay the prices everyone else does. That is the case in this instance as the OP has specifically stated it.
For me it’s about more than just the dice rolling. I fi wanted to roll dice and have fun I’d go back to Las Vegas. There is something, for me anyway, inherently satisfying about putting two painted forces on the table with painted terrain and creating something through the game that is pleasing to look at.
The suggestion that someone would rather play against a paper army rather than a half painted one for me again is irrelevant. I really dislike playing against unpainted armies. I have seen 2500 point armies dropped on the table with only a handful of minis having made it past priming. The whole playing with unpainted minis in my opinion should be actively discouraged. I am not going to make a big deal out of it if it happens but I’ll mention it and certainly wont play that person again unless they can demonstrate they’ve made strides to paint some of their collection. This is from a gaming area where I’ve seen multiple people play week in week out, with large armies (1500+ points of unfinished models) with no progress for months at a time. And I mean NO progress.
To me it shows real lack of respect for yourself and your opponents if you’re happy to put don’t unbuilt and/or unpainted miniatures down. More than anything it’s disrespectful of the effort that some people put into their armies if you’re not willing to make that effort yourself. This is the reason why I have and will never play with an unpainted mini.
This then applies, in my mind, to a paper cut out army. It shows a lack of wiliness to at least try and meet the effort made by others. I think we should all work to help each other have good experiences and it tends to be when this goal isn’t the interest of one participant that people have unhappy experiences. There are so many different ways different people enjoy 40k but I don’t think it is acceptable to put any one person’s interest above another. That’s why I’d appreciate it if those who would rather label others as elitist took a look at themselves and stopped judging others for voicing their opinions

As long as you have put genuine effort into making the paper mini look good and represent the unit it stands in for, then I have no problems with it. That being said, I appear to be in the minority here so it probably isn't a good idea to take to your FLGS.

The answer to your question actually is:

Tournaments normally want official models.

If you want a "fun" paper tournament, you should start one in your area.

Ask your opponent "do you mind if I use my 2d paper models?"
If they do mind, ask someone different.

Paper 2-D figure flats, no. Awesome 3-d papercraft vehicles, absolutely.

If you came over for a game and put a paper army on the table because that's all you could afford then I would not hav a problem. I've been in a situation where hobby dollars were scarce and living dollars even more so. Same as if you were using stand in figures. As long as we know what's what, I have no problem!

I only want to say that some paperhammer armies are really cool and have effort put into them. Personally I'll have 0 problems playing against something likes this:


They are even better that some official GW models for that same units!

But normally is a polite thing to ask your opponent beforehand to use things that deviaty from the norm. So, as always, ask first. And a "No" is a "no". If someone don't want to play against your paper army, thats totally fine, he is in his right, and he isn't a jerk oor something like that for refusing to play against you. Obviously, if you ask him politely and he negates politely. If he says something like "Paper models? Did really you try to play against ME with that crap? Omg, you are such a looser!" then maybe is better to just don't play against that person, with or without plastic models

Your table, your call.

Not your table, your opponent has a vote.

Against a child, I would make considerations unless the child was scummy. And yes, there are scummy little brats.

Against your little sister- if she's anything like the little girl I played against, I'd gladly let her sub things in. And I'd see what I could dig up to help her out with starting her collections.

A grown adult with a job writing 'SPESS MEHREEN' on a piece of paper with 'BULTER GUN' underneath it, playing an apocalypse army with a bunch of trash on the table? No.

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
To me it shows real lack of respect for yourself and your opponents if you’re happy to put don’t unbuilt and/or unpainted miniatures down. More than anything it’s disrespectful of the effort that some people put into their armies if you’re not willing to make that effort yourself. This is the reason why I have and will never play with an unpainted mini.
This then applies, in my mind, to a paper cut out army. It shows a lack of wiliness to at least try and meet the effort made by others. I think we should all work to help each other have good experiences and it tends to be when this goal isn’t the interest of one participant that people have unhappy experiences. There are so many different ways different people enjoy 40k but I don’t think it is acceptable to put any one person’s interest above another. That’s why I’d appreciate it if those who would rather label others as elitist took a look at themselves and stopped judging others for voicing their opinions

This is where people see the elitist attitude sir. You cant in one breath say that people find different parts of warhammer fun and that's totally cool, and then in the next breath say they are some how disrespecting you and others but not having enough time and/or money to have not painted all 3 base coats, every layer and every detail on every model they own if they want to play the game the models are made for!

I for one couldnt give a damn if all the models are painted, i enjoy warhammer for the game and building/collecting the armies. Painting for me is boring as gak and i suck at it, so my models have the base coat/layer, and major details done. [one of the reasons i picked ultramarines - i love blue and the major details arent hard to do, no multiple layers, no airbrushing, no technical paints etc.] But is my lack of enjoyment and skill in the painting department genuinely DISRESPECTFUL to you?!!? Really?! If we put that in another light, those folks who struggled in maths class at school are somehow disrespecting the odd person in the class who enjoys maths? No of course not that would be insane.

At the end of the day, if i have 2000 point army built but partially painted, and you have a 2000 point army painted to level 10 mastery, we have still spent the same amount of money on our hobby [equal commitment], however, for all you know having half my army painted and not just base coated was MORE effort for me to do than for you to do your whole army, because i suck at painting.

Now i understand you're not trying to be elitist and i dont think actually are, but you do come across that way from your choice of words - as mentioned above. Just as you said, you have to accept other peoples opinions, but you must also accept that people have different interests and skill levels within this awesome hobby game, and that has nothing to do with them disrespecting you, because if they were that would require a conscious decision to do so. They arent not painting their armies to specifically piss you off.

 TheIngeniusNoob wrote:
So I play 40k with my sister. We don't have a lot of money so i used DND miniatures to represent the armies. I've seen the prices that GW puts on their Tyranid miniatures and have also seen some of them 3d printed. But what if I printed out of paper? It would be easy to create armies that cost a lot of points and to accurately size the models. I've printed a small 500 point simple army of Tyranids and it works but I'm only using them for personal use right now, so no one go freaking out about my doing so. But seriously, what if we had these in tournaments?

For personal use, just to play the game between you, your sister, and perhaps a couple of other friends and family members, I'd say go for it. Having read all the above superficially, there are enough people who would play with you, possibly even just to see if they like the play style of an army and try it before they buy it. Heck, even I still have the Rogue Trader original book (not that 30th anniversary reprint), with the blue pages wich cut out counters for Pedro Cantor, 15 Space Marines, and a bunch of Ork Boyz and their characters.

What would my own stance on this be? I play this game for the fun of rolling dice and shoving models. Built, possibly primed, and maybe even painted models. I would play with you, and your paper or cardboard army, but I would probably start to advertise buying models. It's not my place to judge you for not having the money to get army after army, add glue, paint and brushes and other supplies to that. But my enjoyment of the game is not just in rolling dice or reading the books. I appreciate the models and a bit of effort that went into them.

Tournaments... Good luck on that. I have never seen a single tournament that didn't have the "3-colour minimum on your models" rule, usually expluding a primer layer. I guess it is up to the individual tournament organizer to decide, but as they are usually publically available and accessible happenings, most tournaments will likely expect you to have the models, at least, perhaps even a paintjob minimum.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I am sorry, but if you can't afford the hobby, then don't do it, or stick casually playing with your sister OP. Just my opinion.

Why do you get to define "this hobby" for other people? Or do you mean just because the OP asked about tournaments and only not for tournaments? If so, I agree.

Paper miniatures are for home use and can be awesome for that.

Rippy isn't "defining the hobby" for anyone. The hobby is Miniatures Wargaming. It was defined long before Rippy was probably born so getting up on him about " the hobby" is BS. The same pretty much goes for anyone claiming cardboard cut-outs are perfectly fine just because GW released a couple of them 20+ years ago. Miniatures wargaming has evolved as the market has grown to accommodate and the sculptors have had time to create these beautiful game pieces. To make the cut-out argument realistic would be to collect a bunch of the original cutouts and field them. Which would be sweet af to be honest.

To the OP, that having been said, it's your game and do it how you want in your own home. I'd suggest making it a real hobby and doing something like Printable Heroes does with 2-sided hand drawn figures printed out and glued together for stand up figures. I think you already get that idea using DnD miniatures to game with but it could be a fun project to add some greater immersion into the hobby. There's plenty of graphics available that would do just fine for starting armies if you don't have much time, or like me, much natural talent for artistic endeavors.

No GW store I've ever been to would allow that style army in store, however. Most game shops selling the miniatures would be loathe to accommodate you as well. There are, however, plenty of beer & pretzel wargamers like myself who wouldn't mind it and would even love to help you with making a cool little cut out army. Now that I'm thinking about it, a Printable Heroes style deal would be pretty awesome to face...

the appeal of using a paper army is that by setting a model down in front of someone you immediately know whether or not they are worth spending an hour and a half with.

If they're okay with it, then great.

If they aren't then also great; you just saved yourself having to spend 90 minutes with a pedant

 Galas wrote:
I only want to say that some paperhammer armies are really cool and have effort put into them. Personally I'll have 0 problems playing against something likes this:

Spoiler:

They are even better that some official GW models for that same units!

But normally is a polite thing to ask your opponent beforehand to use things that deviaty from the norm. So, as always, ask first. And a "No" is a "no". If someone don't want to play against your paper army, thats totally fine, he is in his right, and he isn't a jerk oor something like that for refusing to play against you. Obviously, if you ask him politely and he negates politely. If he says something like "Paper models? Did really you try to play against ME with that crap? Omg, you are such a looser!" then maybe is better to just don't play against that person, with or without plastic models

I wouldn't mind playing against an army like that, but as I've already said, it's all about effort for me. Those are based, and it looks like their creator may have hand drawn every individual model. They are the correct size, some of them have 3D elements, and they perfectly represent the models they stand in for in a WYSIWYG sense. It's a pretty big difference from printing off promotional photos from the GW site and gluing them to irregularly sized, bare cardboard bases or something like that.

 davou wrote:
the appeal of using a paper army is that by setting a model down in front of someone you immediately know whether or not they are worth spending an hour and a half with.

If they're okay with it, then great.

If they aren't then also great; you just saved yourself having to spend 90 minutes with a pedant

If only it were that simple...

People have many facets, and the fact that they may be fine with paper miniatures tells nothing about most of these.

It's a pretty good start; Its kinda like showing up to play with someone and they haven't bothered to bathe or shower. I'm probably going to conflict with certain people, based almost entirely upon some things they decide to do or not do.

Another big one for me is people who are nasty or overly competitive against newcomers... If you can't be arsed to make something fun for someone that literally requires no effort to beat into a pulp why should I put faith in your ability to cooperate with me over a game that's meant to be fun for both of us.

I've played with people who didn't have enough points for a proper game, and I encouraged them to use empty bases to represent so that they could get started.

I assume that someone whose new, and considering paper miniatures will EVENTUALLY be bitten and start collecting actualy miniatures because they are cool.... Or else drop the hobby. Barring them from that first 'hook' because its not how you choose to play is petty and pedantic.

I think it really comes down to the attitude of the player. If it's being done for financial reasons but the player is clearly out to have a good time and is likeable, I wouldn't have a problem playing against anything. If over time, an attempt is being made to make things better then great. I personally don't like the mass of grey plastic some players have which doesn't change over days, weeks and months.

As for the snobby "Not a chance" brigade we've seen here. I'd like to see how they would feel if somebody didn't play with them because of their badly painted minis or ugly face.

 purplkrush wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I am sorry, but if you can't afford the hobby, then don't do it, or stick casually playing with your sister OP. Just my opinion.

Why do you get to define "this hobby" for other people? Or do you mean just because the OP asked about tournaments and only not for tournaments? If so, I agree.

Paper miniatures are for home use and can be awesome for that.

Rippy isn't "defining the hobby" for anyone. The hobby is Miniatures Wargaming. It was defined long before Rippy was probably born so getting up on him about " the hobby" is BS.

And yet, Rogue Trader and 2nd edition 40k came with paper flats to play the game with.



Can you tell me where the material and the dimensional number of the miniatures in question is codified?

What's this?



Gamers from decades ago should have definitely traveled to the future so you could define miniature wargaming for them.

 Hollow wrote:
if somebody didn't play with them because of their badly painted minis or ugly face.

I wouldn't want to play with someone so shallow that they cared about my beautiful face, and if someone doesn't like my fully painted and based army, it's not like there aren't a plethora of other people to play with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 frozenwastes wrote:

 purplkrush wrote:

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I am sorry, but if you can't afford the hobby, then don't do it, or stick casually playing with your sister OP. Just my opinion.

Why do you get to define "this hobby" for other people? Or do you mean just because the OP asked about tournaments and only not for tournaments? If so, I agree.

Paper miniatures are for home use and can be awesome for that.

Rippy isn't "defining the hobby" for anyone. The hobby is Miniatures Wargaming. It was defined long before Rippy was probably born so getting up on him about " the hobby" is BS.

And yet, Rogue Trader and 2nd edition 40k came with paper flats to play the game with.

Can you tell me where the material and the dimensional number of the miniatures in question is codified?

What's this?

Spoiler:

Gamers from decades ago should have definitely traveled to the future so you could define miniature wargaming for them.

They look terrible by today's standards

 Rippy wrote:

They look terrible by today's standards

Is that relevant to whether or not they are a part of the hobby?

I won't play against unpainted miniatures, but I won't deny that those doing so are participating in miniature wargaming. My aesthetic evaluation is irrelevant.

I'm against paper miniatures at events and in tournaments. Just as I am against unpainted miniatures in events and tournaments. Or gaming in public in general. Doesn't mean I'd define doing so as not even being in the hobby. That's just bizarre.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Rippy wrote:

They look terrible by today's standards

Is that relevant to whether or not they are a part of the hobby?

I won't play against unpainted miniatures, but I won't deny that those doing so are participating in miniature wargaming. My aesthetic evaluation is irrelevant.

I never tried to define the hobby, someone else claimed my personal opinion is defining the hobby haha. I said what my opinion is, as in, ME. I wouldn't want to play against unpainted armies or paper miniatures for the same reason.

if it were a friend I would absolutely play paper models taped to pennies as bases. if you seem nice and wanted to learn the game before diving in to try an army sure. heck if you were in my club's facebook group we would probably bring the models you wanted to try out if we collectively have them for the evening. That said in a tournament setting the answer is a firm no, and in a local store setting if it was paper models coming in week after week the local store is a business so I would really hope you would try and scrape together the funds to buy a box here and there to phase out the paper.

I agree on the formal tournament setting. But outright refusing to play someone whose enthusiastic enough about the game to make a paper army, in a casual setting smacks of a person I have no interest in playing.

 davou wrote:
I agree on the formal tournament setting. But outright refusing to play someone whose enthusiastic enough about the game to make a paper army, in a casual setting smacks of a person I have no interest in playing.

I can make a paper army in 20 minutes, that doesn't make me enthusiastic.

Don't get me wrong, if someone wanted to try the game for the first time, and has a phobia of entering GW stores to do so for some reason (Games Phobic?), I would let them try with paper minis. But by that stage, I would just let them use my other army.


EDIT: and you playing with them doesn't make you a hero. This game takes a fair bit of effort as it is, setting up etc. Just seems like a waste of time to me if you are playing pieces of paper, not worth the time. Doesn't mean I wouldn't offer to do something different with OP, maybe go for a brisk jog, a latte at a cafe, or even play a little bit of video games. Turning on my xbox involves about the same effort as printing paper miniatures infact!

Proxies are a great way to test armies or units before you buy.. If this was your plan or you were short on scratch for a proper army it would be fine.
As you can see people's opinions vary on this.

Unless you spammed the best units in the army i would be fine. A few years back we had a friendly weekend tourney at a friend's house, just bros.

One friend used note cards to represent ork bikes. And other card stock to represent others. No bases, no 3 dimension no graphics just laying flat blank note cards. His whole army consisted of 2-3 units spammed with note cards for 2000 points. We were like... dude get decent proxies, balance your list or gtfo. Of course we did not make him gtfo but he certainly knew pretty quickly it was not cool.

When you're playing privately and you know your opponent, anything goes. But when you play people you don't know for a pickup game or tournament there is the expectation you have the correct models. Its important to consider your opponent's enjoyment of the game, which may be affected by the visual aspect of seeing the physical models. Its about respect.

Of course there are strangers who wouldn't care, but there are also strangers who not only want to play vs models, but they want to play vs *painted* models. Best is to clarify with the stranger before. But you shouldn't be offended if people don't want to play you.

I remember when I was 10 or 11 and just starting I used lego on top of cardboard squares (whfb) when I was at home. But I never took lego into my local hobby store... I played with the models I had.

It's like a 40k marine player going and trying to play 30k with their army. Yea people won't mind initially that you're using 40k proxies, like thunderfire as a quad-mortar etc. But you're going to get an army eventually right?

A large reason people play is because of the aesthetic, paper slips aren't part of it. Would I play Infinity with Bolt Action minis? (TLoS nonwithstanding) No.

Would I show up to a LARP in a LEGO Knights outfit? Maybe. Just once though for a good laugh.

For the people who would like to see proper models on the table, they're not ask you pay top dollar for the premium plastic GW puts out. They're asking for you to put genuine effort into the hobby, as we all.

In an extreme case, I respect the man who goes out and builds an entire army of papercraft IG tanks over the man who spends 10 grand on a professionally painted and assembled army for which he probably just saw in person last night.

However I personally feel that the gaming aspect is the weakest part of the hobby (between the recent bad rule writing and the utter vitriol that is the rules discussion, there's a lot to be left desired for the gaming aspect atm), so skipping the rest of it just to jump to the game doesn't necessarily offend me, but makes me feel like the person playing is missing out or glossing over it. Understandably the people I know who continued with the hobby are invariably ones who I've helped get their first models off the floor; those that just keep borrowing my models eventually feel disenfranchised with the game as the army is not truly "Theirs".

While I understand financial situations can make army building hard or impossible at times, I also feel like I should point out that the 40k hobby isn't something that can be accomplished in a week or a month. Hell for me some armies took me years to finish (in fact I've only recently finished 3 of my dozens of armies). And hunting down the models for cheap can often be a bit of fun on it's own (especially when you find that awesome deal and snag it up).

Bottom line is, if you just want to try the game for an afternoon or something, paper models are perfectly ok (even at stores). But just know that the hobby has a much wider scope, and in spite of what we know of the costs (and the constant complaining about it), some money and effort must be sank into this if you want to join the hobby as a whole.

If you were looking for a game outside of the house with 2d miniatures the way to go about it might be to open with, "hey, look at this project I've been working on, it is a little different to normal," instead of going straight into asking for a game. That way you can gauge this persons response to your army first. 2d figures are a bit quirky and not something everyone is really familiar with. They might be quite interested to see such a novelty in person, especially if you have gone to the effort of high res images cut to size and scenically based.

This is really only appropriate at friends houses or in private clubs. I don't think it would be so cool to do something like this in a store, unless the manager is enthusiastic about it too.

 Rippy wrote:

 davou wrote:
I agree on the formal tournament setting. But outright refusing to play someone whose enthusiastic enough about the game to make a paper army, in a casual setting smacks of a person I have no interest in playing.

I can make a paper army in 20 minutes, that doesn't make me enthusiastic.

Don't get me wrong, if someone wanted to try the game for the first time, and has a phobia of entering GW stores to do so for some reason (Games Phobic?), I would let them try with paper minis. But by that stage, I would just let them use my other army.


EDIT: and you playing with them doesn't make you a hero. This game takes a fair bit of effort as it is, setting up etc. Just seems like a waste of time to me if you are playing pieces of paper, not worth the time. Doesn't mean I wouldn't offer to do something different with OP, maybe go for a brisk jog, a latte at a cafe, or even play a little bit of video games. Turning on my xbox involves about the same effort as printing paper miniatures infact!

I don't think you could do a good job of it in 20 minutes, though.

Just sourcing and resizing for printing (or even hand drawing and colouring) is going to take way longer than that. And that is before you consider the effort that will go into 'de-sprueing' and basing.

Some people will put much greater time and effort into their 2d miniatures than many (most?) put into their 3d figures. I'd rather play the first group than the second! I think I may be in the minority there though.

 Quickjager wrote:
It's like a 40k marine player going and trying to play 30k with their army. Yea people won't mind initially that you're using 40k proxies, like thunderfire as a quad-mortar etc. But you're going to get an army eventually right?

Yes I plan on getting an army built off of Ebay and GW. I'm still getting used to the rules and am waiting until I know exactly what i need for my army.

 TheIngeniusNoob wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
It's like a 40k marine player going and trying to play 30k with their army. Yea people won't mind initially that you're using 40k proxies, like thunderfire as a quad-mortar etc. But you're going to get an army eventually right?

Yes I plan on getting an army built off of Ebay and GW. I'm still getting used to the rules and am waiting until I know exactly what i need for my army.

you should look into vassel and other virtual games to give it a go. also most clubs have facebook groups, see local clubs or flgs express interest and I bet people with spare armies would let you test pilot one to see what you like.

if you back them with cereal boxes I reserve the right to deduct victory points from you due to underhanded distraction tactics.

craggy wrote:
if you back them with cereal boxes I reserve the right to deduct victory points from you due to underhanded distraction tactics.

lol

Personally I wouldn't mind at all as long as you have the army written down for me to look at and agree to. In a tourney setting rules are rules so they may not allow it but that's up to them but personally if you wanted a friendly match in a game shop I'd be fine with it. Most of my armies are fluff ones anyway and not built for super OP metagame so any opportunity for some fun story progression of my Orks is a welcome thing.

I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

Tournaments are the 40k equivalent of a dog show.

Would you show up to a dog show with a stuffed animal?

The pseudo-bourgeois elitism really knows no boundaries.

It's all reducible to class warfare.

 davou wrote:
has a phobia of entering GW stores to do so for some reason (Games Phobic?)

They have a sense of smell and don't want to hurl?
There's a reason gamer reek is aka "the funk of 40,000 years" and it's not just because the aircon isn't up to the task.

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

A tournament is a more serious setting; its the same reason I would let someone take a move back in chess if we were playing in a cafe and they saw a major fuckup a split second after putting their move down, or why I would let someone start from a certain position in a Jiujitsu match. I'm here to have fun and help you have fun. I expect the same thing from you so that the engagement bears repeating.

Starting something 'for fun' with a dictate sets myself up for no fun. In a tournament of whatever sort... I'm not here to have fun, Im here to test myself at the highest effort, and expect the same in return. I wouldn't be allowed to play a 3 drop pods and 4 sodapop bottles list, and neither should someone else. Even if the intention wasn't for exploit, it smacks of being a place where people would exploit the best expensive or hard to acquire models in proxy.

TLDR : You're paper army is fine if we're having fun, and even better if you're a bit nervous about it and buy me a beer bribe. Its certainly not if we both paid to be here and/or are fighting over a prize of some kind, even if its a token.

Yes, they should be allowed. I don't care if its a tournament or not. This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them, so long as they can proxy them sufficiently to meet the standards of the game (TLoS, appropriate base sizes, etc.)

Me? I have the actual models. I'm a glutton for punishment, and I find the hobbying aspect quite enjoyable (no doubt I suck at it, but I enjoy it).

That said, I don't mind if presentation is part of a tournament score (there's a distinction to be drawn between forcing and encouraging behavior), and I've yet to participate in any actual tournaments (except as a judge at an unofficial one in the LGS) so my take on appropriateness in a tournament setting is quite limited.

I applaud the inclusiveness (too many of us nerds are mean spirited), but I have to disagree with the tournament thing.

Sure the game is expencive, and no one should be excluded.... but that does not mean you get a pass on being included either. Entering a tournament is elective; the organizers should be as free to refuse you as you are to refuse to participate. ((I've been around when a tournament decided that despite not having enough games to fill a store, were going to disallow anyone else use of the empty tables in a game shop that they didn't own... Walking up to the counter and cancelling a few hundred bucks in pre-order had the owner shut them up pretty quick))

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

If your opponent agrees, then why not? If you enjoy the hobby, enjoy it the way you want to. I don't think people will freak, but admins at tournaments definitely will. You may not have as much of an immersive story, but you could definitely do it. Please, just don't be the guy that stands a bag filled with gravel onto the table and says that it's a Ta'Unar Supremacy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jeez I just read through the other comments, and this is a very toxic topic...

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

a few reasons, the first being the same as a previous answer. if it is a pickup game at a club, public space or home that is different than using paper craft in a game store where the owners are trying to run a business. most tournaments I have seen are run by a store with prize support. Sometimes there is an entry fee, but often it is $5-10 with 10 or so players and the prizes are worth more than the entry fees plus the time of having a judge there be it the owner's time to be said judge or an employee they pay to do it.

secondly if the tournament was at a club or just a standalone tournament then if the models were wysiwyg AND somehow also occupied the same 3d space then ok sure but it would include the infantry as it is easier to hide a sliver of paper taped to a base than it is a 3d model.

 Traditio wrote:

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

Tournaments are the 40k equivalent of a dog show.

Would you show up to a dog show with a stuffed animal?

The pseudo-bourgeois elitism really knows no boundaries.

It's all reducible to class warfare.

My god, this man's a Marxist!

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

To be clear I said I'd be happy as long as progress was being made in some manner to having a "real" army.

But as to tournaments, there is a large enough problem with repetitive army lists in tournaments already, if you remove the need to have built and painted models everyone will be playing the same paper army, which to me just seems uninteresting. Further in the pick up game case, I didn't spend any money to play that game, I did pay for the tournament so expecting a certain standard to me seems fair. Now I wouldn't oppose a TO who wanted to allow anything, I might just choose not to go myself.

Pr3Mu5 wrote:I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

Usually because the TO says so. That's reason enough. If you don't agree with that, then you don't take part in the tournament.

Every tournament I've done has asked for as close to WYSIWYG, three colours, and based, using official models. I agreed to those rules, and took part. If I didn't agree to that, I wouldn't play.

If you're in a FLGS or even a GW store, the store owner is within any rights to deny you access to play a game. It's their store, their rules. That's why the only place you can always get away with paper models is in your own store or house. Beyond that, you're relying on the opinion of the store owner, who most likely is not in this discussion. Tournaments, nearly always, ask for full models. They don't even need a reason for it, beyond "because I said so". That's why you can't bring paper models into most tournaments: because the rules of the event prohibit it.

 TheIngeniusNoob wrote:
So I play 40k with my sister.

You have an awesome sister.

We don't have a lot of money so i used DND miniatures to represent the armies.

It would be interesting to keep track of what was what due to WYSIWYG issues but if you can make sense of it: OK.

I've seen the prices that GW puts on their Tyranid miniatures and have also seen some of them 3d printed. But what if I printed out of paper? It would be easy to create armies that cost a lot of points and to accurately size the models. I've printed a small 500 point simple army of Tyranids and it works but I'm only using them for personal use right now, so no one go freaking out about my doing so.

If you have some affordability issues this is the most logical solution and gets the look of the "models" more in line for being representative for ease of play.
Where you would get into trouble is when you go to play with someone with assembled and painted models... it is nice to get a game in BUT it is looks-wise not as nice.
Personal example story here:So it really all boils down to what your opponent likes as well.
If the models are little more than chess pieces to you and them: awesome, do what you want.
I would say that going into 40k as a tactical exercise like chess: you are playing the wrong game, this is not a tactically balanced game, it is more like an RPG sandbox.

But seriously, what if we had these in tournaments?

Then every last person would field the absolute best paper army they could without a model in sight.
It could only be off-set by some best looking army award... barely.
It would be a sad day.
I think GW would also have something to say about their primary income of being a model company and not investing further in pulp and paper.

Well, when I started, I filled out my platoons with green army men.

I also one time made 9 Basilisks out of dowel and 2x4 because I was on an Imperium vs. Xenos team for an Apocalypse game and, to put it mildly, we were going to be badly outnumbered if I didn't make a lot of tanks appear magically overnight.

Me today would cringe at me then.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, when I started, I filled out my platoons with green army men.

I also one time made 9 Basilisks out of dowel and 2x4 because I was on an Imperium vs. Xenos team for an Apocalypse game and, to put it mildly, we were going to be badly outnumbered if I didn't make a lot of tanks appear magically overnight.

Me today would cringe at me then.

no H8 there especially in apoc where tone side needs points. on the army men front I have seen some decently painted cheapo green army men

personally when I started the game I wanted orks and ork trukks, I has some boyz and a warboss so I built scale trukks and battlewagons out of K'nex I even made artillery out of them until I had the scratch to purchase the real models.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Well, when I started, I filled out my platoons with green army men.

I also one time made 9 Basilisks out of dowel and 2x4 because I was on an Imperium vs. Xenos team for an Apocalypse game and, to put it mildly, we were going to be badly outnumbered if I didn't make a lot of tanks appear magically overnight.

Me today would cringe at me then.

no H8 there especially in apoc where tone side needs points. on the army men front I have seen some decently painted cheapo green army men

personally when I started the game I wanted orks and ork trukks, I has some boyz and a warboss so I built scale trukks and battlewagons out of K'nex I even made artillery out of them until I had the scratch to purchase the real models.

My brother plays Orks, and he built a battlefortress out of plywood, nails, balsa, card, a few small pieces of tiny corrugated metal, and leftover lumber. He built a battlewagon the same way too, with a spiky toilet paper tube for a deffrolla, and it actually looks pretty good, but it's annoyingly gigantic so it's Battlefortress #2.

Today, I'm perfectly willing to pay $80 for every squad and then an extra $10 per Sister Superior and Sister w/ Special Weapon to ensure my entire army is WYSIWYG. I do remind myself though, before I laugh at the guy who has a bunch of bases with grey legs, that one time I was there with a bunch of green army men for my Conscripts.

 Pr3Mu5 wrote:
I'm just wondering, for those who have said they'd happily play against it outside of a tournament setting but think that tournaments should require models, what is the rationale behind this position?

If there is a tournament that endorses paper models, even flat ones on appropriately sized bases, I'd say go for it. Who am I to proscribe the rules a Tournament Organiser should or would enforce?

However, most tournaments I have seen were in a publically accessible space. A couple in a shop, most at a convention, where other attendees could wander by the tables and look at what's there. To the TO, especially if it is a store owner or if GW starts to organise their own events again, that might also be matter of visual appeal, and downright advertising. And to GW itself, the Hobby is about buying models, assembling them, painting them. And then play a game with them if you want to. The latter has been an afterthought for such a long time. I have no stakes in this. I have no GW bonds or shares to increase my bank account. I can just see the appeal as a hobbyist that does buy models (at discounts from time to time, of course), assembles them (sometimes with intricate conversion work), paints them (to the best of my willingness and ability), and then plays a game with them. Almost every TO I know is like me, but just that little more driven about the hobby. After all, he, she or it spends time beyond buy/assemble/paint/play as they also organise the 'let others play' part, with or without prize support from GW, independent stores, or simply tournament income.

I guess that I feel like their extra effort just needs to be rewarded by seeing the Hobby at its fullest. I think it would be disrespectful to just show up with proxies, paper cut-outs, blank bases and other such 'not assembled and painted miniatures' just because, regardless of your reasons. If you ask beforehand, and they allow it, great. If they don't organise your own 'everything goes' tournament, and enjoy that part of the Hobby (as I do believe it is such as well) in your own way. Therefor, in a casual game, especially at home, I don't care. Use proxies and paper counters. Try that army, and when money comes, money comes. You'll buy miniatures. Or bread, milk, and electricity, mayhap some clothes for your children. You can have your personal priorities there. No problem.

 davou wrote:
I applaud the inclusiveness (too many of us nerds are mean spirited), but I have to disagree with the tournament thing.

Sure the game is expencive, and no one should be excluded.... but that does not mean you get a pass on being included either. Entering a tournament is elective; the organizers should be as free to refuse you as you are to refuse to participate. ((I've been around when a tournament decided that despite not having enough games to fill a store, were going to disallow anyone else use of the empty tables in a game shop that they didn't own... Walking up to the counter and cancelling a few hundred bucks in pre-order had the owner shut them up pretty quick))

Playing any game is elective. Wait, are you being held against your free will, being forced in to playing non-tournament games? Blink twice if you need assistance.

When it comes to it, yes, I do want to play against painted figures. It's called Miniatures Wargaming for a reason.

But I'm willing to play against paper figures, because it's hard to get into the game and I'd rather you play now and have fun, and buy some actual models later, than never play a game, become discouraged, and leave.


As I said, I started by filling out my units with green army soldiers. I was fortunate. My first game was played with models borrowed from a friend, about 3 dozen guardsmen and a Lascannon team. I was later given those models as a gift, and that's how I got started. I bought a second hand Leman Russ Tank that was in very poor condition and revitalized it, comprised the rest of my foot troops with green army men, and made a squadron mate for the tank out of wood. If I hadn't been able to use the wooden tanks and green army men, I probably wouldn't have continued playing, since with 35 guys and a tank you can barely make 500 points, much less the 1500-2000 everyone was playing at. Over time, I figured out what I wanted my army to be and replaced units of green army men and wooden tanks with real models, and now I have Guardsmen, Sisters, and Space Wolves, and take pride in being WYSIWYG when I put my models out on the board.

I'd rather play with you, against your bases with legs or paper cut outs, and have you enjoy the hobby and buy models later, than turn you away to play Dawn of War.

morgoth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

As an adult, $400 is not too bad (though that's a fairly restricted army list, and most people would have to invest a LOT more than that to get a diverse ability to play, particularly the diversity needed to change and adapt to the shifting meta of a tournament setting).

For people just getting into it, $400 is a lot, and I'd rather not have that sort of paywall to participation in the game.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

As an adult, $400 is not too bad (though that's a fairly restricted army list, and most people would have to invest a LOT more than that to get a diverse ability to play, particularly the diversity needed to change and adapt to the shifting meta of a tournament setting).

For people just getting into it, $400 is a lot, and I'd rather not have that sort of paywall to participation in the game.

$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

By the time the new generation is old enough to afford the game, they're already invested in some other hobby.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

Well, as I worked out in another thread, for $400 you can get ~1500 points IG ABG, ~1250 points footguard, or ~750 points Sisters of Battle. These are by no means the most efficient armies to start as, but $300-$400 is a pretty fair expectation for starting an army.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

Well, as I worked out in another thread, for $400 you can get ~1500 points IG ABG, ~1250 points footguard, or ~750 points Sisters of Battle. These are by no means the most efficient armies to start as, but $300-$400 is a pretty fair expectation for starting an army.

Yes but generally you would be collecting armies in bits&pieces rather than huge blob of plastic waiting to be painted.

Who says newbie has to have 1850 pts armies right off the bat? That's players pushing artificially barrier up. And generally not good especially for newbie who will likely make expensive mistakes with that.

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

Of course who buys 400$ at once? Not really that good way to start the game or even new army.

Well, as I worked out in another thread, for $400 you can get ~1500 points IG ABG, ~1250 points footguard, or ~750 points Sisters of Battle. These are by no means the most efficient armies to start as, but $300-$400 is a pretty fair expectation for starting an army.

Yes but generally you would be collecting armies in bits&pieces rather than huge blob of plastic waiting to be painted.

Who says newbie has to have 1850 pts armies right off the bat? That's players pushing artificially barrier up. And generally not good especially for newbie who will likely make expensive mistakes with that.

I found, when I was starting, the bar was set around 1000 points. 500 was the absolute minimum.

From a practical attracting people to the hobby viewpoint: I only had people seem impressed with the game when fully painted and non-proxied models were used.
I don't look at what shortcuts used as "offensive", more as a source of ridicule by the uninitiated.
Though, when you have an opponent that consistently fields and expands these kinds of armies rather than replace elements with "proper" models, it gets rather... tiring to see.
It is an expensive hobby and in the past, GW was a bit nuts so I did not mind people finding alternative supplies of models.
Every time I see paper models, I think of the first Battletech box set I got. I never used the punch out models even once.
But I have been building models since I was 12 so those always came first to me.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

morgoth wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
This is an insanely expensive hobby, and I don't think anyone should be forced to buy and paint models to participate in them,

I don't think a hobby which costs you about 400 bucks to get a full-sized army can be considered insanely expensive.
Most hobbies and sports cost at least 150 bucks every three months more or less (running shoes, 3x racquets, other gear, games+internet+console/pc, even books).

As an adult, $400 is not too bad (though that's a fairly restricted army list, and most people would have to invest a LOT more than that to get a diverse ability to play, particularly the diversity needed to change and adapt to the shifting meta of a tournament setting).

For people just getting into it, $400 is a lot, and I'd rather not have that sort of paywall to participation in the game.

$400 is nothing for an adult with a regular paycheck. But for a college student it's well beyond what he's probably willing to spend on anything, and well beyond what a high school student's parents would be willing to buy at once. That's the crux of the problem, I think.

By the time the new generation is old enough to afford the game, they're already invested in some other hobby.

Adult with a regular paycheck here. Between the mortgage, house payments, clothing and feeding children, etc. - I have less money than I did as a teenager to spend on hobbies.

As a high school and college student, I didn't spend $400 in a go, but I did accumulate things. If a table tipped well or I covered an extra shift, I could stop by the store on my way home and pick up a Terminator or a pair of troopers to gradually fill in a regiment. Those added up pretty quickly into good-sized armies.

It points to another trend I've noticed in the hobby. People I see at stores or online make a list and collect the miniatures needed to make that list. In the past, people collected miniatures and made a list out of those miniatures for each game. Both work, but the former probably contributes to the perception that you need to spend $400 to play the game.

 Asmodai wrote:

Adult with a regular paycheck here. Between the mortgage, house payments, clothing and feeding children, etc. - I have less money than I did as a teenager to spend on hobbies.

As a high school and college student, I didn't spend $400 in a go, but I did accumulate things. If a table tipped well or I covered an extra shift, I could stop by the store on my way home and pick up a Terminator or a pair of troopers to gradually fill in a regiment. Those added up pretty quickly into good-sized armies.

It points to another trend I've noticed in the hobby. People I see at stores or online make a list and collect the miniatures needed to make that list. In the past, people collected miniatures and made a list out of those miniatures for each game. Both work, but the former probably contributes to the perception that you need to spend $400 to play the game.

Adult with an irregular paycheck here. I too did most of my army building purchases when I was attending university.
And lets not forget that the increase in prices of 40K has vastly outpaced inflation.
I were a student now, I don't think I would be able to buy half the stuff I bought 10 years ago.
Getting started was far easier back then.

As for the paper mini's. Play the game any way you like, but don't expect everyone to like the game for the same reasons you do. And tournaments are free to set whatever guidelines they choose.
Personally, I cannot imagine anybody wanting to play the current ruleset, even with fully painted models. But 8th edition might well change that.

If you have played this game long enough, you have probably seen some pretty silly models over the year. I still remember when this was a real model in game. Circa 1989.

Youn wrote:
If you have played this game long enough, you have probably seen some pretty silly models over the year. I still remember when this was a real model in game. Circa 1989.

That is a piece of history.
First showed up in Rogue trader as an example of scratch building.
That picture is an example for the custom vehicle points pricing scheme they cam up with.(much later, 3rd or 4th edition?)
I made an excel sheet for those rules.
Silly? Oh there was far worse.
The CSM with the stubby bat wing jump packs were gimpy in the extreme.
My 3 tiny Obliterators raised eyebrows when I dust them off (originals that fit on a 1" base).
The thing is, models give some creative outlet to make an army your own.
I would be happy facing that "Hello Kitty" marine army any day.

I started playing WHFB with cardboard cutouts. And paper terrian.

I'm fine with Proxy40k, as long as everything is the right size, and 3D. If it's on a guardsman sized base, takes up about the same volume that a guardsman does and has 'guardsman' written on it, I'm down with it.