Movment in 8th edition:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/

I am not sure if i like this:

If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you! This does, however, open up a vast range of tactical options for armies like the Astra Militarum, who will now be able to effectively deploy in firing lines, with each row falling back from any assaults in good order (if they survived) while the unit behind them fires at the attackers. It goes both ways though – if you have a dedicated assault unit that specializes in killing infantry (like Warp Talons) your opponent will find it much harder to pin them down in combat with heavily armoured units for the entire game.

Guess it makes the game more dynamic. But i think it will hurt my Tyranids. When i finally get my Hormagants or Reaveners into CC. And in the nest turn my opponent gets his guys out of the CC. He will just shoot rest off the board. But we have to wait for the rest of the rules to be released. And If it is still IGOYGO or not.

What that does is make it so Assault troops aren't safe by tarpitting an opponent.

Example:
Blood angels assault squad charges Imperial guard squad. They activate and kill all but 3 guardsman. At end turn guardsman get lucky and don't get eliminated.

Currently, Guardsman are tied up in combat and therefore the Blood angels are immune to shooting.

WIth the changed rule, the Imperial Guard player drops his guardsman back and opens up with his entire army on that assault marine squad.

It also means good assault units can avoid being tarpitted themselves. If I have some Custodes trying to attack Renegades and Heretics, I can now try to maneuver around Plague Zombies (for example).

I like this change and I say this as a lover of assault armies.

I agree. Yes, it does hurt my orks since most shooty armies will just fall back their turn, tarpitting is an annoying practice that wastes time and needs to die.

In the big picture, this means things like 2+ rerollable screamer stars, necron stars, etc. are severely crippled.

How does AoS handles "Run" mechanics? Mostly wondering if different type of units (Bikes vs Infantry) have the same run distance(D6 or 2D6)?

Yeah this change is awesome in my mind. I always thought tarpitting was a little too static and cause for a lot of exploitation. The example they gave, of setting up guardsman lines and falling back each line for the ones behind to open up sounds so awesome.
Just to point out though, this also means that the assaulting army can then charge again, charging in 8th now giving a huge advantage, so I don't consider this a nerf to assault armies personally

Yep, even though I'm playing orks I like this change.

The game should be about moving and ultimately dynamic, not a static game of two player craps.

Tautastic wrote:
How does AoS handles "Run" mechanics? Mostly wondering if different type of units (Bikes vs Infantry) have the same run distance(D6 or 2D6)?

It's mostly a universal D6 extra, while some particularly fast units can roll multiple when specified

Honestly what I'm most worried about in movement is my boyz getting like 4 inches of movement. I can deal with 5, but I really hope most standard infantry will just be 6.

Meganobz will almost definitely be 4, considering termies are 5.

Come to think of it, with this movement change, do you think they'll get rid the no running penalty for SnP? It seems redundant if movement is dynamic, now.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah this change is awesome in my mind. I always thought tarpitting was a little too static and cause for a lot of exploitation. The example they gave, of setting up guardsman lines and falling back each line for the ones behind to open up sounds so awesome.
Just to point out though, this also means that the assaulting army can then charge again, charging in 8th now giving a huge advantage, so I don't consider this a nerf to assault armies personally

I wonder why they didn't use tau or eldar in that example ; )

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Honestly what I'm most worried about in movement is my boyz getting like 4 inches of movement. I can deal with 5, but I really hope most standard infantry will just be 6.

Meganobz will almost definitely be 4, considering termies are 5.

Come to think of it, with this movement change, do you think they'll get rid the no running penalty for SnP? It seems redundant if movement is dynamic, now.

It's possible that Orks will have a slower movement speed, as the Ironjawz faction of Orks in AoS have 4" movement. However, they have plenty of rules in stuff like battalions (formations) that help them move much quicker across the board for some sweet melee action. That said, they're meant to be heavily armoured, and the other faction of Orks, who play more like 40k Orks, have a move speed more akin to other armies. So it could go either way or perhaps we'll see multiple factions of Orks in the future like in AoS

 Tiberius501 wrote:

Tautastic wrote:
How does AoS handles "Run" mechanics? Mostly wondering if different type of units (Bikes vs Infantry) have the same run distance(D6 or 2D6)?

It's mostly a universal D6 extra, while some particularly fast units can roll multiple when specified

Argh I hope not...I hope they at least do something like 1/2 of Movement value + D6. So to have some difference in movements.

I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

 Vitali Advenil wrote:
Honestly what I'm most worried about in movement is my boyz getting like 4 inches of movement. I can deal with 5, but I really hope most standard infantry will just be 6.

Meganobz will almost definitely be 4, considering termies are 5.

Come to think of it, with this movement change, do you think they'll get rid the no running penalty for SnP? It seems redundant if movement is dynamic, now.

if matt ward had anything to say about it like 6th edition anything to screw over orks. they have to be the whipping boys for space mary sues err marines

 obsidianaura wrote:
I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

The 2 wounds they've shown them having now seems pretty good. And -3 AP (which a lascannon has now) takes them to a 5+ save, which is like their old invulnerable save. So I'd say they're probably going to be tougher than before. Other weapons having AP values to modify their save is probably still going to take time to get through a unit of 2 wound models

Tautastic wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

Tautastic wrote:
How does AoS handles "Run" mechanics? Mostly wondering if different type of units (Bikes vs Infantry) have the same run distance(D6 or 2D6)?

It's mostly a universal D6 extra, while some particularly fast units can roll multiple when specified

Argh I hope not...I hope they at least do something like 1/2 of Movement value + D6. So to have some difference in movements.

You do already have differences in movement. It's called the Movement value.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

The 2 wounds they've shown them having now seems pretty good. And -3 AP (which a lascannon has now) takes them to a 5+ save, which is like their old invulnerable save. So I'd say they're probably going to be tougher than before. Other weapons having AP values to modify their save is probably still going to take time to get through a unit of 2 wound models

That seems fair. I've not seen that 2 wounds thing yet thanks

Wait! That makes me wonder how many wounds Paladins will have now!

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

The 2 wounds they've shown them having now seems pretty good. And -3 AP (which a lascannon has now) takes them to a 5+ save, which is like their old invulnerable save. So I'd say they're probably going to be tougher than before. Other weapons having AP values to modify their save is probably still going to take time to get through a unit of 2 wound models

True, but alot of the heavy hitting weapons like lascannons will do D6 wounds per hit now.

 obsidianaura wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

The 2 wounds they've shown them having now seems pretty good. And -3 AP (which a lascannon has now) takes them to a 5+ save, which is like their old invulnerable save. So I'd say they're probably going to be tougher than before. Other weapons having AP values to modify their save is probably still going to take time to get through a unit of 2 wound models

That seems fair. I've not seen that 2 wounds thing yet thanks

Wait! That makes me wonder how many wounds Paladins will have now! :O

Yeah that'll be interesting. Or Wraithguard! I'm also quite interested in how Guardsman Sentinals and Roughriders will fair as well

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

The 2 wounds they've shown them having now seems pretty good. And -3 AP (which a lascannon has now) takes them to a 5+ save, which is like their old invulnerable save. So I'd say they're probably going to be tougher than before. Other weapons having AP values to modify their save is probably still going to take time to get through a unit of 2 wound models

True, but alot of the heavy hitting weapons like lascannons will do D6 wounds per hit now.

Considering lascannons are anti-tank weapons I think this is fine. Honestly, single-shot weapons needed a buff for MCs and the like.

 FEARtheMoose wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 obsidianaura wrote:
I wonder how terminator armies will get on, they'll be slower and their armour save will be changed by the new (old) AP deducting from saves system.

What will they do to mitigate that hit?

The 2 wounds they've shown them having now seems pretty good. And -3 AP (which a lascannon has now) takes them to a 5+ save, which is like their old invulnerable save. So I'd say they're probably going to be tougher than before. Other weapons having AP values to modify their save is probably still going to take time to get through a unit of 2 wound models

True, but alot of the heavy hitting weapons like lascannons will do D6 wounds per hit now.

Though they suggested that the damage of each hit goes towards a single model. So we'll likely see anti-vehicle weapons being low amounts of hits but high dmg and anti-infantry weapons being high amounts of hits but low damage per hit

Has anyone heard if overwatch will still be a thing in 8th? I'm wondering how this fall back will work if it is still a thing.

Im holding out hope that overwatch will require you to set an action in your turn, but allow for full BS.

Overall, I'm ok with the concept.

But I don't think it should happen automatically, or for free. There should be some kind of test to see if you get away (both sides roll a dice, add movement, highest value decides who leaves or stays), or maybe lose models based on a leadership test.

But the idea of just "I'm leaving now, bye" like in AoS, is a bit silly.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Overall, I'm ok with the concept.

But I don't think it should happen automatically, or for free. There should be some kind of test to see if you get away (both sides roll a dice, add movement, highest value decides who leaves or stays), or maybe lose models based on a leadership test.

But the idea of just "I'm leaving now, bye" like in AoS, is a bit silly.

Or sacrificing a few extra models as you run, that would be fine.

It's not free. It comes at the cost of being effectively pinned for your turn; and is only worth doing if you didn't want to be in assault with that unit anyway.

There's already a cost/benefit element to it, and the reason you would evaluate that cost is probably because you were already loosing models. Adding more losses to it isn't really required, you can leave and then your pinned.

Whats REALLY interesting here is that it introduces a way for them to reintroduce consolidating into the next combat without it being massively broken

This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

 Vitali Advenil wrote:


Or sacrificing a few extra models as you run, that would be fine.

Yeah, I mean, something. I know that unit already takes a penalty for falling back, but they shouldn't be able to guaranteed escape a combat and take no additional losses. But, we don't know all the specifics yet. I think it's fine, generally, even as assault-heavy orks.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Overall, I'm ok with the concept.

But I don't think it should happen automatically, or for free. There should be some kind of test to see if you get away (both sides roll a dice, add movement, highest value decides who leaves or stays), or maybe lose models based on a leadership test.

But the idea of just "I'm leaving now, bye" like in AoS, is a bit silly.

It depends on the narrative you build in your mind. Because movement, shooting, and melee are all limited to specific times it can sometimes seem like "I'm leaving now bye" but it might be accurate to think of the last round of combat as a fighting withdrawal, with the movement not depicted until the proper phase. Similar to how units that move and then charge now aren't really moving, stopping, then moving again in "reality"

Also if "morale" works like AOS, it is very possible that units will die quicker in melee, so what this really stops is trying not to kill the opponent.

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

Maybe there'll be some kind of adjusted sweeping advance rule to help

I hope so

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

I mean, they're gonna move. On your turn, you could just move up and charge them again if you really want. What you're really worried about is not being able to use 'locked in combat' as a way to avoid getting shot off the board, which has less to do with movement and more to do with the sheer power of shooting in 7th. We don't know if it's gonna be that bad now. Surviving a round of gunfire might not be the daunting proposition it is now. Point costs and abilities might change enough it's easier to threat overload an opponent too so you'd have multiple assault units for your next turn.

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

This is the reason why I don't believe overwatch will be a thing in 8th. You have a lot more freedom in a gunline to shoot advancing assault armies, so I think overwatch will be scrapped. I could be wrong though


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:
This is probably the change that i actually dont like.

I mean, if you dont have hard alphastrike units or you roll gak. The enemy is gonna run away and you basicly just advanced deeper into a gunline. I have a slight feeling the extra 1 wound on terminators arent gonna quite make them great again.

I hope im wrong.

I mean, they're gonna move. On your turn, you could just move up and charge them again if you really want. What you're really worried about is not being able to use 'locked in combat' as a way to avoid getting shot off the board, which has less to do with movement and more to do with the sheer power of shooting in 7th. We don't know if it's gonna be that bad now. Surviving a round of gunfire might not be the daunting proposition it is now. Point costs and abilities might change enough it's easier to threat overload an opponent too so you'd have multiple assault units for your next turn.

I agree. I think an entire unit being unable to do anything that turn is a big enough penalty and works perfectly well in AoS. It just prevents tarpitting, which was annoying. Also, being able to charge out of transports means assault armies will presumably be able to have more options to avoiding gunline fire.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Overall, I'm ok with the concept.

But I don't think it should happen automatically, or for free. There should be some kind of test to see if you get away (both sides roll a dice, add movement, highest value decides who leaves or stays), or maybe lose models based on a leadership test.

But the idea of just "I'm leaving now, bye" like in AoS, is a bit silly.

According to the post they made, you make the decision to fall back on your movement phase, and then the leaving unit cannot move, shoot or charge that turn. Essentially your unit to fall back will have to just stand there to be fired by enemy army.
This sounds very good change, the player who wants to be in melee will want to have multiple good melee units instead of one big star, as it should. And actually this thing sounds even more realistic, how ridiculous is it that one squad of yours is in melee with huge scary melee unit, and then no one fires at it! They just sit and watch their friends die.

This might even encourage traditionally shooty armies to take multiple kind of tarpitting units to protect the shooting elements, ending up making the game more balanced as there maybe wouldnt be 100% shooting lists.

I am hoping overwatch is a command point ability.

I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

One thing that occurs to me is that this makes multi-assaulting (assuming it still exists) huge. Running away is not such a great option if it means having large portions of your army incapable of doing anything for the next turn. It also makes things like durable, fast, but not killy units good for assaulting your opponents good shooting units.

Breng77 wrote:
One thing that occurs to me is that this makes multi-assaulting (assuming it still exists) huge. Running away is not such a great option if it means having large portions of your army incapable of doing anything for the next turn. It also makes things like durable, fast, but not killy units good for assaulting your opponents good shooting units.

OOOOOOooooooohhhhhh

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

Maybe ive missed something. But where is that risk?

You move the unit out at the start of the turn, then move around the melee unit with your other units, shoot it down. Risk of getting charged = Gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:
One thing that occurs to me is that this makes multi-assaulting (assuming it still exists) huge. Running away is not such a great option if it means having large portions of your army incapable of doing anything for the next turn. It also makes things like durable, fast, but not killy units good for assaulting your opponents good shooting units.

Good point, and if you can assault out of rhinos. GW are gonna sell plastic like there is no tormorrow

I like the movement values for each unit, it better represents a faster or slower unit (Harlequins should outrun Termies for instance). Hopefully this "advance" feature is something simple like 2xmovement instead of a die roll, would speed up the process more and be reliable.

Loved this new addition. No more snake-eyes-rolling Pathfinders holding people for 3 turns!

 Brutallica wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

Maybe ive missed something. But where is that risk?

You move the unit out at the start of the turn, then move around the melee unit with your other units, shoot it down. Risk of getting charged = Gone.

The risk is there because none of that is guaranteed. First, you need your other units in the right place which doesn't always happen, and then the unit has to be completely destroyed in one shooting phase, which has a possibility to not happen. So that unit might be alive to charge again. The unit doesn't just die because you walked away from it and target it with other units - and what if killing it isn't even a priority but more about avoiding inconvenience? So there's how there could be a risk of being charged again.

Hmm no more cool aid manning through walls and running happening at the time of movement? this game is looking better and better.

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

Well depend on how widespread is Turn 1 charges...I mean if only 1-2 units in an army can pull it off consistently fine...But if 4-5 units can then that is a different story...

Now that you can withdraw and have other units shoot at the enemy, you can set up a picket to protect valuable units without fear of blocking your own shots. It will require new tactics but that's one of the exciting things about a new edition, shaking up the meta, turning convention on its head, and figuring out new ways to tear your opponent down.

keep in mind that if you bubble wrap, then fall back, you may suddenly provide cover to the unit that had assaulted you against the shooting you intend to put into it.

Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

It isn't more time than the current model though. You are already rolling for every unit you want to run. Only now you are measuring distance for them twice each turn. Also fewer units will run now because there won't be times where you think you might shoot, but your target dies and you run instead. Sure double move is quicker, but that makes high movement super powerful (if I have a 12" move I now run 24") We don't know for sure every unit will run D6, there might be special rules like turbo boost that change it for certain units.

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

A flat doubling of movement is far more advantageous to already fast units than slow units. It would also quickly get out of hand for fast vehicles, since they use the same rule set.

A meganob moving 8" instead of 4" is manageable. A jetbike with a 12" move suddenly being able to go 24" risks breaking the game.

Tarpitting wasn't only annoying, it was a very powerful mechanic that when played well could tip the match in your favor.

Having a great tar pit forces your opponent to move his assault units along other routes, which allows me to line up my guns on those routes, which forces him to shoot at those units first.

Having this tarpit option in my army now allows my other units more movement, not less, since the scary rerolling lol-star is now nudged in another direction or into a certain path.

If played with an active tactic, its much less boring.

I'm not saying that the change in movement as presented for 8th is a bad thing, just that it changes the mechanic and encourages different movement, not automatically more movement across the board just like that.

This pleases me. They said in a previous article that Hormagaunts run faster than I believe Eldar, or was it jet bikes as an example of move speeds. Rest assured, no matter how far all of the prey runs, they will be caught.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

A flat doubling of movement is far more advantageous to already fast units than slow units. It would also quickly get out of hand for fast vehicles, since they use the same rule set.

A meganob moving 8" instead of 4" is manageable. A jetbike with a 12" move suddenly being able to go 24" risks breaking the game.

Do you mean the jetbikes that can currently move up to 84" in one turn compared to the 6" (+2d6 if charging) of a meganob? Having them go a whole 24" would be so broken!

Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit.

Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

Edit: Hopefully overwatch is no longer a thing that just happens (since a combination of "running away and overwatching the unit attempting to catch up" would be maddening), and perhaps locking a unit in melee is a command ability.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit. Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

If you tar pitted a large squiggly beast and it leaves combat then its not doing anything for the rest of its turn. i see no problem.

but think about how great it will be if the squishy grots are relatively quick! They can run up, provide cover the whole time, and then absorb charges and cause pinning on choice targets.

 roflmajog wrote:

Do you mean the jetbikes that can currently move up to 84" in one turn compared to the 6" (+2d6 if charging) of a meganob? Having them go a whole 24" would be so broken!

1) The point was in the concept, not the specific example.
2) Jetbikes being able to move 84" in one turn doesn't strike me as a desirable game mechanic.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Think the D6+Movement advance is weak sauce personally (and I say that as someone who uses it in my own game). Just double the damn Movement.

Once again, despite saying the opposite...you're going to end up with MORE special rules to increase movement for certain units. This is a stupid decision and...again, contrary to what they state, actually adds more time to the game (one more dice roll for every unit in your game you want to run). Just use 2nd, and double it.

A flat doubling of movement is far more advantageous to already fast units than slow units. It would also quickly get out of hand for fast vehicles, since they use the same rule set.

A meganob moving 8" instead of 4" is manageable. A jetbike with a 12" move suddenly being able to go 24" risks breaking the game.

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

 Desubot wrote:
If you tar pitted a large squiggly beast and it leaves combat then its not doing anything for the rest of its turn. i see no problem.

The difference is potentially one turn of inconvenience vs potentially several turns of inconvenience :V

There's also the question of how far the retreat move is. you move your full movement or higher, I could see some units you manage to assault once... and then they just move away and you never catch them again.

I do imagine that retreating doesn't allow you to move through units, so if you surround the target that might lock them in as well. So that grot hold down might still apply!.. as long as you're not force to move the shortest distance with assault like currently

This really all comes down to how assault will work if retreating is a mild annoyance or a major devastation to assault armies

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:


There's also the question of how far the retreat move is. you move your full movement or higher, I could see some units you manage to assault once... and then they just move away and you never catch them again.

They run away their whole move and are stuck; you get to move, and then charge.

we're talking about tactics now in a game whose full rules we don't know; its kinda pointless.

Bubble wrap was a thing, and will still be a thing. Having to deal with it was always a question, and looks like it still will be. What tools we have to do so will be an interesting thing to figure out, but there's no reason to think the sky is falling just because it changed.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Why not half? Is math really that hard?

Still it allows for it to be balanced by randomness instead of taking responsibility for defining it for every unit from the M stat.

Breng77 wrote:
It depends on the narrative you build in your mind. Because movement, shooting, and melee are all limited to specific times it can sometimes seem like "I'm leaving now bye" but it might be accurate to think of the last round of combat as a fighting withdrawal, with the movement not depicted until the proper phase. Similar to how units that move and then charge now aren't really moving, stopping, then moving again in "reality"

I like the visual of the fighting withdrawal. It makes units being able to leave combat feel better in my head. Thanks!

Sadly withdrawing from a fight would have been as simple as making an Initiative check...but then those disappeared.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit.

Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

I actually think it would be cool if not only defenders could fall back from combat, but assaulting units could push through. No more dreadnoughts sitting 6" away from away from a Weirdboy but unable to advance due to a handful of grots.

People should be able to use some units to screen and protect other units, but I don't think it should be as much of a hard stop as it is. Like, maybe a unit can give up its attacks and move as though through dangerous terrain to try to push through? The defending unit could basically still chase and attack them the entire way, but wouldn't be able to fully stop them. Maybe only certain units like Terminator Assault Squads or Meganobz can bully their way through, or they get a bonus to doing so. Maybe some units like Hive Guard or Imperial Fists Veterans are a hard stop that can't be pushed through.

It's probably too clunky of a mechanic to implement, so I won't be too sad if it's not included.

 Elbows wrote:
Sadly withdrawing from a fight would have been as simple as making an Initiative check...but then those disappeared.

Which would've only benefited the high I races.. Because we really wanted Eldar to have ANOTHER benefit over slower I races didn't we?

Dark Eldar would've loved it, but giving Eldar another one is just.. iffy.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Why not half? Is math really that hard?

Still it allows for it to be balanced by randomness instead of taking responsibility for defining it for every unit from the M stat.

I assume you mean round down to half? Hm could work. And i can't see why i should be a dice role. Why should RNGesus decide how fast a unit runs. Shouldn’t they run equally fast?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Disappointed about being able to walk out of assaults. Tarpitting bigger squiggly beasts with my grots was always funny, and making sure you didn't get the crap shot out of you whle you were advancing up field as really important to the health of your unit. This seems more of a boon to units that don't want to be in assault, because even if that unit can't do anything that turn after retreating it's still preferable to not being able to do anything, getting your butt kicked, and also preventing your army from shooting that unit.

Combined with apparently sweeping advance going away, and I'm kinda worried about the capability of assault units to kill other units.

I actually think it would be cool if not only defenders could fall back from combat, but assaulting units could push through. No more dreadnoughts sitting 6" away from away from a Weirdboy but unable to advance due to a handful of grots.

People should be able to use some units to screen and protect other units, but I don't think it should be as much of a hard stop as it is. Like, maybe a unit can give up its attacks and move as though through dangerous terrain to try to push through? The defending unit could basically still chase and attack them the entire way, but wouldn't be able to fully stop them. Maybe only certain units like Terminator Assault Squads or Meganobz can bully their way through, or they get a bonus to doing so. Maybe some units like Hive Guard or Imperial Fists Veterans are a hard stop that can't be pushed through.

It's probably too clunky of a mechanic to implement, so I won't be too sad if it's not included.

I like that idea but only the winner should be able to push through. Would create the opportunity for epic situations. Like Space Marines trying to hack their way trough masses of Gants or Guardsmen to get to an objective for example.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Sadly withdrawing from a fight would have been as simple as making an Initiative check...but then those disappeared.

Which would've only benefited the high I races.. Because we really wanted Eldar to have ANOTHER benefit over slower I races didn't we?

Dark Eldar would've loved it, but giving Eldar another one is just.. iffy.

And whose to say that some Eldar/Dark Eldar units may not have the capacity to not be impeded after withdrawing from a fight?

Eldar units, no matter the source, have often crazy rules to allow them to be expensive and frail.

nordsturmking wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:

I think it shouldn’t be a role or double. Not sure what it should be. I can't come up with a good and easy solution . And another thing are you gonna be able to assault later if you ran? I would like to know that . Can't wait to get my hands on the full rules .

A flat 3" or so of extra movement wouldn't have been a bad idea. GW does love its dice rolls, though.

Why not half? Is math really that hard?

Still it allows for it to be balanced by randomness instead of taking responsibility for defining it for every unit from the M stat.

I assume you mean round down to half? Hm could work. And i can't see why i should be a dice role. Why should RNGesus decide how fast a unit runs. Shouldn’t they run equally fast?

GW has given a fluff reason for the role of dice involved with Running, so I won't address that.

However, when it comes to balance, let's face it, no matter the implementation of a set number, be it a variable off the M stat or a solid number, some units will benefit more than others from it. A low bonus will benefit slower units more while a higher bonus will make fast units obnoxious. Enter the die. Its role is to balance it out so that no one unit gains too much advantage out of it.

It also speeds up development, as it removes responsibility for balancing a unit on the ramifications of Running (and maybe Charging) from its M stat. That usually gets screwed up by the Eldar and Tyranids, anyway, no matter the movement method.

It may be a lazy step of development, but it can also cause quite a stir of "made it" or "oh crap, that's useless". Randomness brings out more cheers and moans in a game than anything with set numbers does.

My gun line can fall back now.

I'm loving this.

They basically just ported over the AoS system of falling back out of combat. And I can tell you its really not that big of a deal. Granted 40k has more shooting, but they did say combat would be stronger. In AoS you can only retreat if you end your move at least 3 inches away, so if you are in a large combat and you have a not so great move you're kinda stuck. It really forces you to position your melee units better to trap them.

 Traditio wrote:
My gun line can fall back now.

I'm loving this.

Little early for that, we have 0 idea who/what benefits from this because we don't know how the rest of the systems work.

I also like the fact that they said that you can't go through solid walls.

That's a big nerf to bikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Don Savik wrote:
They basically just ported over the AoS system of falling back out of combat. And I can tell you its really not that big of a deal. Granted 40k has more shooting, but they did say combat would be stronger. In AoS you can only retreat if you end your move at least 3 inches away, so if you are in a large combat and you have a not so great move you're kinda stuck. It really forces you to position your melee units better to trap them.

I would be fine with that, and note, this would add a strategic layer to the game.

You want a gunline? Ok. But you better make sure that you don't get flanked.

You want to assault? Ok, but you better make sure that they don't get away.

Random running never bothered me, you should never count on it (where people go wrong), but can provide an extra couple of inches to maybe make an assault easier, or provide bonus movement to units that can't shoot anyway.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah this change is awesome in my mind. I always thought tarpitting was a little too static and cause for a lot of exploitation. The example they gave, of setting up guardsman lines and falling back each line for the ones behind to open up sounds so awesome.
Just to point out though, this also means that the assaulting army can then charge again, charging in 8th now giving a huge advantage, so I don't consider this a nerf to assault armies personally

They can charge again if the survive a turn of standing around in the open with their dicks in their hands.

This is a huge nerf to assault armies because the only thing that made assault the least bit viable was getting stuck in combat through your opponents turn. Close combat was a huge risk for a bit of reward, and now it's suicide.

And while some people don't like tar pits, those people play tau triple storm surge or deathstars. For many armies tar pitting is the only way to deal with OP shooting units and deathstars. It's only disliked by people who play lists that can only be dealt with by tar pits.
.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:
I think we are seeing the compromise that allows for turn 1 charges and assaulting out of vehicles. The problem with CC was it was too sticky, Now that people can just leave (albeit at the risk of getting charged again) ranged armies like the Tau can better respond to melee threats.

How often did tau struggle against melee armies though? Sure if a melee army got in CC with tau, but that rarely happened as they'd get gunned down on the way easily.

Anyone who thought close combat needed a nerf raise their hand

Danny slag wrote:


And while some people don't like tar pits, those people play tau triple storm surge or deathstars. For many armies tar pitting is the only way to deal with OP shooting units and deathstars. It's only disliked by people who play lists that can only be dealt with by tar pits.

I know it's fun to be salty, but I don't play those lists and I don't like tar pits - I'm sure I'm not the only one.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

 Kellevil wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

Why cant it be both?

 Desubot wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

Why cant it be both?

Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

 amanita wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Well warhammer is a game of dice ..

Some people seem to be allergic to that idea.

I disagree. Yahtzee is a dice game. 40k is a tabletop war game.

Why cant it be both?

Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Not really seeing how the dice are making you decide whether to run or not. you certainly have to make decisions after the results but thats all games. (did you manage to hit the target and kill it, did you not? what next?)

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

I just dont understand the benefit of a random run / charge distances. I dont cheer when I get a good roll i say '*whew* that didnt suck'. And when i get a bad roll, of course, I throw a kitten in a wood chipper.

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

 Kellevil wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

I just dont understand the benefit of a random run / charge distances. I dont cheer when I get a good roll i say '*whew* that didnt suck'. And when i get a bad roll, of course, I throw a kitten in a wood chipper.

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

Well if the game was absolutely rigid then you would know exactly how everything would turn out. should you be able to shoot something and not have to roll to hit or kill?

its the same concept. if you dont like dice then you shouldn't like the shooting system ether.

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

Certainly. In our game we use 2D6 and pick the higher for running. My comment was a general one, not so much a specific one but the original comment, even if in jest, seemed a carte blanche justification for using dice to determine more than necessary.

 amanita wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 amanita wrote:
Why should it be? Dice for a wargame should be used to resolve players' decisions, not make the decisions for them.

Which is one of the reasons it sucks for Warlord Traits and Psyker Powers. However, if you choose to Run, would this not be resolving the player's decision, and not making the decision?

Certainly. In our game we use 2D6 and pick the higher for running. My comment was a general one, not so much a specific one but the original comment, even if in jest, seemed a carte blanche justification for using dice to determine more than necessary.

Yeah it started getting way overboard on some things like randomly generated psychic table. like seriously. im absolutely ecstatic that its gone.

 Kellevil wrote:

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

When everyone moved the same distance, it would be possible to stay 1" outside charge and shoot people as you moved back.

However, failing a 4" charge is the pits. I'm disappointed they don't seem to have taken the opportunity to institute some minimum guarantee (always charge at least you M value or something maybe?)

Well if the game was absolutely rigid then you would know exactly how everything would turn out. should you be able to shoot something and not have to roll to hit or kill?

its the same concept. if you dont like dice then you shouldn't like the shooting system ether.

I dont see that as a solid argument. I like the dice roll for shooting. I dont like it for movement. I dont think it accuratey represents the movement of units. We dont have random rolls for vehicles and nobody thinks it breaks the game. But not knowing how fast your own unit can move prevents solid strategic thinking. You end up just moving as far as you can so you get have a higher likelyhood of getting to where you want to go by the end of turn 5. If you were sure of your movement distance you could do it with a solid plan. Just think how it would be for chess if the movement distance was random. There would be no strategy.

 Kellevil wrote:

Well if the game was absolutely rigid then you would know exactly how everything would turn out. should you be able to shoot something and not have to roll to hit or kill?

its the same concept. if you dont like dice then you shouldn't like the shooting system ether.

I dont see that as a solid argument. I like the dice roll for shooting. I dont like it for movement. I dont think it accuratey represents the movement of units. We dont have random rolls for vehicles and nobody thinks it breaks the game. But not knowing how fast your own unit can move prevents solid strategic thinking. You end up just moving as far as you can so you get have a higher likelyhood of getting to where you want to go by the end of turn 5. If you were sure of your movement distance you could do it with a solid plan. Just think how it would be for chess if the movement distance was random. There would be no strategy.

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

Kellevil wrote:I just dont understand the benefit of a random run / charge distances. I dont cheer when I get a good roll i say '*whew* that didnt suck'. And when i get a bad roll, of course, I throw a kitten in a wood chipper.

I have never played with anyone who appreciates random movement values. Can you explain why you like it?

It's not that I like it, I just understand it and its usefulness as a balancing mechanic. I actually like reliability and consistency.

At least its not like Battletech where if you move through difficult terrain, you could randomly end up on your face (a really Bad Thing if that area is also mined).

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:When everyone moved the same distance, it would be possible to stay 1" outside charge and shoot people as you moved back.

And here is a good reason for random movement. Its a little too reliable in WHM, imo.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:However, failing a 4" charge is the pits. I'm disappointed they don't seem to have taken the opportunity to institute some minimum guarantee (always charge at least you M value or something maybe?)

And here is the bad reason. Even if you have a 7" Charge range at is is M+D3, you could still easily end up missing out if your Movement is 4".

Kellevil wrote:I dont see that as a solid argument. I like the dice roll for shooting. I dont like it for movement. I dont think it accuratey represents the movement of units. We dont have random rolls for vehicles and nobody thinks it breaks the game. But not knowing how fast your own unit can move prevents solid strategic thinking. You end up just moving as far as you can so you get have a higher likelyhood of getting to where you want to go by the end of turn 5. If you were sure of your movement distance you could do it with a solid plan. Just think how it would be for chess if the movement distance was random. There would be no strategy.

I think the reasons given for random movement are appropriate. Running is giving that extra burst more that you just may not have, because you've dodged incoming fire, hit a gopher hole, or pulled a Monty Python and started good but turned back for good reason and got stuck in between. Stuff happens and you can't always control it.

 Kellevil wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

it would be easier for me to say why i dont like static values. it becomes too predictable, too easy to skirt people. i dont want 40k to just be chess.

 Desubot wrote:

it would be easier for me to say why i dont like static values. it becomes too predictable, too easy to skirt people. i dont want 40k to just be chess.

Indeed. If I want to play it completely predictable I'd play chess, checkers, or tic-tac-toe. The unpredictable nature of dice rolls does help keep some mystery in the game that can't be controlled by organic computers.

Now, if you are good with dice, you could encourage rolls to go your way, but then, why are you playing a tabletop game that costs money and not playing craps at your nearest locations of choice?

As a side note, it is also one reason I hate card games. Aside from some superstitions about dice only coming with a certain number of good rolls, the 1's and 6's are always available. In a game like Magic or Malifaux, early success can screw your late game.

 Kellevil wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

My group has enjoyed it, though I have to admit we are a beer and pretzel group. It adds a dynamic that give both excitement and builds tension to cookie cutter games.

One game my Vanguard Vets led by Shrike fail a 3" charge agaist a bunch of boyz with a power klaw nob. It was not going to be fun for the 20+ boyz, but when it failed we both had to laugh and moved on. The next turn the ork player pulled off an 10" and 11" charge. It changed what was gojng to be a one sided fight into a very interesting game that came down to only a half dozen models.
Now from a competition point of view I can see where random charge is bad, but from us Dr. Pepper & Chips players it is a different story aot of the time.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

 Kellevil wrote:

i dont understand how you could be unsure of your movement. its there in black and white. and now with units moving at different rates things have changed. the extra run move is just gravy on top. it doesnt really change any sort of plan.

running isnt gravy on top. You trade your shooting for it.

If i told you to walk forward and shoot and i told the guy next to you to just run flat out and we repeated the sequence 10 times the run and walk/shoot distance would be easily measured and counted on if I ask you to do it an 11th time

Which is more or less how the D6 system works. 10 tries will more likely than not move you pretty close to 3.5" per try.

If the random factor is really this big of an issue for you, why are you playing a dice game at all?

Back to the dice game argument huh? None of you have explained why you like it. That was my question. Why is that mechanic fun?

I have been playing Shadow War armageddon and it has a fixed move, run and charge value. I really like it. i think it adds more strategic depth. It doesnt break the game. It doesnt even hurt it.

My group has enjoyed it, though I have to admit we are a beer and pretzel group. It adds a dynamic that give both excitement and builds tension to cookie cutter games.

One game my Vanguard Vets led by Shrike fail a 3" charge agaist a bunch of boyz with a power klaw nob. It was not going to be fun for the 20+ boyz, but when it failed we both had to laugh and moved on. The next turn the ork player pulled off an 10" and 11" charge. It changed what was gojng to be a one sided fight into a very interesting game that came down to only a half dozen models.
Now from a competition point of view I can see where random charge is bad, but from us Dr. Pepper & Chips players it is a different story aot of the time.

Iv had a game where my SM were being charged by my friends necron wraiths and 3 times he was off by 1"

we both had a laugh. and i still hold all of his failures over his head.

Anyone here plays Warmachine Hordes as well?

They have set charging distance. In their recent edition update they added a rule stating you can measure at any time.

This INSTANTLY devolved the game from balanced lists to Shooting heavy lists due to the fact that now shooting lists knew EXACTLY how far they needed to be to not be charged.

Having exact charge distances would be... a NERF TO MELEE...

 Talamare wrote:
Anyone here plays Warmachine Hordes as well?

They have set charging distance. In their recent edition update they added a rule stating you can measure at any time.

This INSTANTLY devolved the game from balanced lists to Shooting heavy lists due to the fact that now shooting lists knew EXACTLY how far they needed to be to not be charged.

Having exact charge distances would be... a NERF TO MELEE...

Jesus i forgot about that.

Fair enough. Thats what I wanted to know. What people liked about it.

It doesnt seem to hurt SW:A but maybe that is because of the scale.

I hope you can only hit flyers if you get a double 6s.

So now we have units able to wimp out of melee so their buddies can shoot the stronger melee force.

Please bring back consolidation from successful assaults!
You want to wimp out and fall back? That's cool, if I survive your buddy's shooting, catch the wussy unit and finish the job I roll 2d6 against movement to continue onto your next unit, your cowardice has given me a possible double melee phase.

And now units can overwatch multiple times. So more nerfs to melee.
Love everything I've read thus far about 8th except the slaps to close combat.

Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

Wouldn't it be more of a walk by?

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

Wouldn't it be more of a walk by?

Or ride by, or jump by, or fly by.
You are right of course but quit busting my balls.

Danny slag wrote:And now units can overwatch multiple times. So more nerfs to melee.
Love everything I've read thus far about 8th except the slaps to close combat.

Yes, and no on that multiple Overwatches. In most cases, units won't be able to Overwatch twice or more because they will be the equivalent of Engaged now. So, that restriction hasn't gone away.

But gone are the days of a unit needing to hold back on Overwatch just in case their Charger didn't make it.

I think I like these changes that streamline the movement some and think they could make the game more interesting. I think that this has the potential to be an interestingly dynamic system if they include movement bonuses or penalties in wargear choices. For example, taking the large tau rifles might confer a -1 movement which wouldn't be too big of a disadvantage, but would make them easier to catch and would represent the difficulties of carrying such a large weapon. Conversely, certain choices could confer bonuses such as combat drugs of some kind or choosing to use a lighter armour. I do worry though that unless they change the tau's overwatch gimmick, combined with the new retreating rules and unlimited overwatches for each unit that assaulting a tau gunline may become impossible.

 Traditio wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Actually, I do have one hope.
In the 7th ed rules one of the bold points is that a unit that fired in the shooting phase may only charge the unit it targeted during the shooting phase.

Since it hasn't been mentioned in the teasers for shooting or charging I'm hoping this means opening fire on a unit doesn't mean having to charge that unit.

Hash tag drive by.

Wouldn't it be more of a walk by?

In my severely sleep deprived state, I am now picturing a flinstones-esque foot powered car full of guardsmen wandering the battlefield, performing mob style drive by shootings.