so this are the new Psychic Phase rules.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/28/new-warhammer-40000-psychic-phase/

Mortal wounds are a thing now in 40k.

Mortal Wounds are a new mechanic too – these cannot be saved by any means and punch straight through thick armour and even invulnerable saves! Ouch.

And the Psychic Phase works a bit like magic in WHF i like that.

What do you think about the new rules?

I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

Yeah this looks great and essentially how it works in AoS. Much simpler and more fun

Mortal goes through Invul... Stormshields and terminators better be freakin cheap

Seems interesting, just have to see the powers and how units like Magnus work with powerful psychic powers. I do like the idea of each psyker being able to do something

Ooohh I wonder if 7th "rend" will be the new 8th "mortal wound"? I hope it is since it seems like there will be a lot more T7+ models with 3+ or better saves and a bucket loads of wounds.

 Brutallica wrote:
Mortal goes through Invul... Stormshields and terminators better be freakin cheap

depends on how common mortal wounds are.

Beyond that I like this better than the 7th edition rules because it means bringing one psyker is viable. I also like the seeming elimination of BRB powers I like different armies having different powers, it also makes powers easier to balance. The new system also could make extremely powerful abilities far more unreliable as a means of balance. If something like invisibility still exists but casts on say an 11+ it wouldn't be nearly as bad.

I don't think a lot of things will be inflicting mortal wounds; I like that this gets through armour and invuls because it's attacking your brain. However, we'll have to see how psychic defence works; having a few psykers in your army just to help defend against other psykers will probably be a big deal.

Looking forward to seeing how Force Weapons work.

 Brutallica wrote:
Mortal goes through Invul... Stormshields and terminators better be freakin cheap

I would say it depends on the proliferation of these weapons, if it is the new instant death and only a few weapons have it then it might mean some multiwound models survive like D3 mortal wound, gets 2 wounds average. sure it kills a terminator but a chapter master survives it rather than just removed as a casualty to instant death

Pretty likely any old D-weapons will now inflict mortal wounds

Tiberius501 wrote:Yeah this looks great and essentially how it works in AoS. Much simpler and more fun

Jacksmiles wrote:I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

Yep me too *so Hyped*. Can't wait to see the Necron psychic lore I hope Necrons get some sort of psychic defense because Smite looks really deadly if all psychicers can cast it.

Mortal wounds!
Psychic powers that you can't aim

Yet to be seen
- how to deny

Every faction will have its own psychic lore with a range of thematic powers.
Tau
Necrons
DEldar

With that updated Galaxy map, and the increased warp rifts will we see these 3 races somehow become anti psykers or psychically charged?

Not liking this, means pyker heavy armies are gonna be good, also the way the word it, it does not sound like there are pyker schools anymore, you get these spells. I really hope they let us choose a school to draw out of, I really liked fulmination, or maybe I felt like using librarius.

Another change I'm not liking.

That said, props on the casting value system, much easier to deal with.

I'm really interested to see what Force does now. Maybe mortal wound on a wound roll of 6? GK will be scary with all the Force weapons

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

They never stated they were keeping Mastery levels in the article. They only mentioned them as a being a previous mechanic of the game. So I'm betting that the generic Librarians and psykers will be limited to casting and blocking a single power per turn. Casting/blocking more than one power will probably be limited to special characters and/or units like the Eldar Farseer and Tigurius.

Just as long as powerful spells are costed correctly. I like knowing the spells ahead of time and being able to cast them all.

The psychic mechanics are fine with me. Mortal Wounds can be worrisome as they can suffer from some of the issues D weapons did, but at least with the Smite power portrayed it looked somewhat finicky to properly deploy as it targets the nearest enemy unit, not necessarily the one of your choice, so will often require work to pull off right.

Each time you pick a psyker, you can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level) and there’s a simpler, two-dice mechanic for casting, you just need to beat the warp charge value.
The more potent the power, the harder it will be to cast.

To me, if this is means that each Psyker datasheet will have the spells they know listed on the sheet?

If the psyker only casts the spells on their data sheet, I think that you're going to see different psyker profiles, at different price points that only cast certain subsets of powers.
examples -

Fire Psyker - 120pts - knows
- Fire Sheild
- Flame Breath
- Molten Beam
+ Smite (they all know smite now)

Combat Psyker - 180pts - knows
- Iron Arm
- Warp Speed
- Endurance
+ Smite

I like this. It lends itself to the hobby aspect - people can model psykers appropriately and give them appropriate paint jobs

Also means you don't sit and roll for random powers

Takes some of the cheese out of psychic phase as you'll have to pay for a certain psyker that has access to a special godly power.

Yep, knowing them ahead of time will certainly be way less of a headache than having to roll random powers. I always hated random power generation in 7th edition. You could either buy one psyker and generally be next to useless, or you just go hog wild and buy all the ALL the psykers and just go fishing for powers like Invisibility. (Looking at you, Libby Conclave and Daemon armies)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, since every faction knows the Smite power, what happened to the Force power? I wonder if Force weapons just have their special Instant Death power wrapped up in the weapon stats itself? Maybe Force weapons do mortal wounds on a wound roll or to hit roll of 6+ now?

 Vaktathi wrote:
The psychic mechanics are fine with me. Mortal Wounds can be worrisome as they can suffer from some of the issues D weapons did, but at least with the Smite power portrayed it looked somewhat finicky to properly deploy as it targets the nearest enemy unit, not necessarily the one of your choice, so will often require work to pull off right.

And you could couter Smite by butting a ceap unit closer to the psyker.

 bomtek80 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

They never stated they were keeping Mastery levels in the article. They only mentioned them as a being a previous mechanic of the game. So I'm betting that the generic Librarians and psykers will be limited to casting and blocking a single power per turn. Casting/blocking more than one power will probably be limited to special characters and/or units like the Eldar Farseer and Tigurius.

In the new system, the Psychic phase has been re-worked from the ground up.
Each time you pick a psyker, you can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level) and there’s a simpler, two-dice mechanic for casting, you just need to beat the warp charge value. The more potent the power, the harder it will be to cast.

If your Librarian is a Lvl 2 in 7th then he will know 2 powers and can attempt 2 powers in 8th. From the sound of it, each faction will have its own set of powers to pull from and hopefully there will be some common/universal powers like we have now.

As for Mortal Wounds. In AoS Mortal Wounds are mostly regulated to Magic and some special attacks. It's not a super common ability outside of Magic but all factions do have some kind of access to it on non-wizards. On top of that there are rules that let you discount Mortal Wounds, usually on a 6, and usually double as an extra save against normal saves.

I feel like Instant Death is gonna be changed into Mortal wounds now

 commander dante wrote:
I feel like Instant Death is gonna be changed into Mortal wounds now

Yeah, which would also make Force weapons boss.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

They never stated they were keeping Mastery levels in the article. They only mentioned them as a being a previous mechanic of the game. So I'm betting that the generic Librarians and psykers will be limited to casting and blocking a single power per turn. Casting/blocking more than one power will probably be limited to special characters and/or units like the Eldar Farseer and Tigurius.

In the new system, the Psychic phase has been re-worked from the ground up.
Each time you pick a psyker, you can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level) and there’s a simpler, two-dice mechanic for casting, you just need to beat the warp charge value. The more potent the power, the harder it will be to cast.

If your Librarian is a Lvl 2 in 7th then he will know 2 powers and can attempt 2 powers in 8th. From the sound of it, each faction will have its own set of powers to pull from and hopefully there will be some common/universal powers like we have now.

As for Mortal Wounds. In AoS Mortal Wounds are mostly regulated to Magic and some special attacks. It's not a super common ability outside of Magic but all factions do have some kind of access to it on non-wizards. On top of that there are rules that let you discount Mortal Wounds, usually on a 6, and usually double as an extra save against normal saves.

Yes but the article doesn't really state that Mastery levels are still present in the new system. Only that they may cast as many spells as their data sheet allows.

In AoS most magic users can only cast/unbind one spell per hero phase. Even the more powerful special characters are limited to two spells per phase. So I suspect that only the really powerful casters like Magnus and Fateweaver and the like will be able to cast 3 or more spells per phase.

 bomtek80 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

They never stated they were keeping Mastery levels in the article. They only mentioned them as a being a previous mechanic of the game. So I'm betting that the generic Librarians and psykers will be limited to casting and blocking a single power per turn. Casting/blocking more than one power will probably be limited to special characters and/or units like the Eldar Farseer and Tigurius.

"You can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level)."

Close enough? Dunno why you need to play semantics with it. It's possible everything generic will be the equilavent of current ML1, but "the same as their [current] mastery level" read to me like this won't be the case, and I hope that's true.

You can say they haven't said Mastery Level is in, and that's true - but they're implying that datasheets will state how many spells a model can cast, and there's no reason yet to believe that number is typically 1. I'm hoping they'll keep the current "buy more mastery levels" system.

Hello Psycher Biker Gangs runnin up on your warlord!

The Psychic Hogs?

The Sons of Smite?

Audustum wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
I feel like Instant Death is gonna be changed into Mortal wounds now

Yeah, which would also make Force weapons boss.

It would also then make sense for GK to be using their force weapons.
They are supposed to be anti-daemon and yet have been armed with a weapon that in no way helps them fight daemons...(In current 40K)

Audustum wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
I feel like Instant Death is gonna be changed into Mortal wounds now

Yeah, which would also make Force weapons boss.

well, that assumes that Instant Death stays (has that been confirmed? I would be surprised if it did now that we have multiwound weapons back again) and that Force continues to use it as its mechanic. We'll see how that pans out.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

They never stated they were keeping Mastery levels in the article. They only mentioned them as a being a previous mechanic of the game. So I'm betting that the generic Librarians and psykers will be limited to casting and blocking a single power per turn. Casting/blocking more than one power will probably be limited to special characters and/or units like the Eldar Farseer and Tigurius.

"You can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level)."

Close enough? Dunno why you need to play semantics with it. It's possible everything generic will be the equilavent of current ML1, but "the same as their [current] mastery level" read to me like this won't be the case, and I hope that's true.

You can say they haven't said Mastery Level is in, and that's true - but they're implying that datasheets will state how many spells a model can cast, and there's no reason yet to believe that number is typically 1. I'm hoping they'll keep the current "buy more mastery levels" system.

Actually I'm hoping for that as well. Just being slightly too pessimistic I guess.

"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment"

 Vaktathi wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 commander dante wrote:
I feel like Instant Death is gonna be changed into Mortal wounds now

Yeah, which would also make Force weapons boss.

well, that assumes that Instant Death stays (has that been confirmed? I would be surprised if it did now that we have multiwound weapons back again) and that Force continues to use it as its mechanic. We'll see how that pans out.

Actually, my post was predicated on the assumption that Instant Death would be replaced by Mortal Wounds. That would be a major buff in my eyes to current Force weapons.

I think powers of the C'Tan will get rolled into the psychic phase, it would be weird for a librarian to counter them, but that's a sacrifice I'd be happy to make if I get to choose which powers I'm using. This is the kind of streamlining we've come to expect, and I have to say I'm pretty happy about it.

BomBomHotdog wrote:

As for Mortal Wounds. In AoS Mortal Wounds are mostly regulated to Magic and some special attacks. It's not a super common ability outside of Magic but all factions do have some kind of access to it on non-wizards. On top of that there are rules that let you discount Mortal Wounds, usually on a 6, and usually double as an extra save against normal saves.

Thats a problem with AoS. I think it's WAY too easy to get mortal wounds for some races. This was one of the worries I had regarding 8th, the age of mortal wounds spam. Stormcast has tons of mortal wounds, Skaven got easy access and so does a lot of the other factions. I just played a Khorne vs Stormcast where my friend delivered 10 mortal wounds in the first turn against me. It wasn't even fun.

Jacksmiles wrote:

 bomtek80 wrote:

Jacksmiles wrote:
I'm excited for this. I like that they kept mastery levels rather than everyone just gets 1 spell per turn (typically) like AOS. Everything is just so so good-looking and I'm so hyped.

They never stated they were keeping Mastery levels in the article. They only mentioned them as a being a previous mechanic of the game. So I'm betting that the generic Librarians and psykers will be limited to casting and blocking a single power per turn. Casting/blocking more than one power will probably be limited to special characters and/or units like the Eldar Farseer and Tigurius.

"You can cast as many spells as their datasheet states (which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level)."

Close enough? Dunno why you need to play semantics with it. It's possible everything generic will be the equilavent of current ML1, but "the same as their [current] mastery level" read to me like this won't be the case, and I hope that's true.

You can say they haven't said Mastery Level is in, and that's true - but they're implying that datasheets will state how many spells a model can cast, and there's no reason yet to believe that number is typically 1. I'm hoping they'll keep the current "buy more mastery levels" system.

I am in agreement with this, to me it reads as if:


"This Librarian has Mastery Level 2 in the 7th Ed Codex. His 8th Ed Codex will permit him to cast 2 powers maximum per turn, selected/rolled from this list of powers: XYZ"


There's nothing to suggest that they will limit base psykers and in fact that kinda spoils the narrative elements of bringing along a powerful psyker of your army, and only special charcaters being ML2 or higher. They specifically mention Magnus as a bad thing for psykers.


The new powers mechanic seems to be a blend of 5th Edition leadership test and 6th/7th Ed Warp Charge. Roll 2D6 and beat a particular score. Except instead of being Ld, where 99% of psykers have Ld9-10 anyway, they test based on the difficulty of the power. They also mention "a psyker's mastery" will play a role in casting and denying. Here is my theory.


"To cast a psychic power, roll 2D6 and add the model's Mastery Level. If the score is equal to or greater than the Warp Charge, the power is cast."

This would mean a surpremely powerful psyker like Tigurius, ML3, would pretty much always be able to cast a basic power like Smite (5+ Warp Charge) while even a ML1 psyker would have a very good chance, while a Warp Charge 11 power (eg, Invisibility) would need a superbly high roll of 10+ to pass, but for Tiggy would only need 8, and Eldrad only 7.

I assume denying would work in a similar way to old psychic hoods given that any psyker within a particular range would be able to deny. I imagine

"To deny an enemy psychic power, roll 2D6 and add the model's ML value. If the score is greater than the opponent's psychic test roll, the power is nullified."

So, a ML1 Psyker casts smite, rolls and adds for a total of 8. ML3 Tiggy comes in and rolls 3 on both dice, and adds his mastery level for total of 9, denying the power.

This is only my theory but it seems very very streamlined and takes the best of both sides of 5th and 6-7th Eds.


As for Perils of the Warp, I could see going back to 5th on that as well, with or being Perils (maybe inflicting D3 and D6 mortal wounds respectively, as the psyker fails to harnass the Warp or draws WAAAAYYYY too much power than he can handle?). This would mean that my earlier example of a ML3+ psyker pretty much auto-casting a basic ability like Smite would still have a chance to hurt or kill himself through this.



Again, this is just my theory based on what they've revealed, though I like this idea myself and hope this is at least partially accurate. Also, if I've nailed it, let it be officially stated that I called it first

My Grey Knights are loving these changes.

My Space Marines are suffering a bit.

 Grimgold wrote:
I think powers of the C'Tan will get rolled into the psychic phase, it would be weird for a librarian to counter them, but that's a sacrifice I'd be happy to make if I get to choose which powers I'm using. This is the kind of streamlining we've come to expect, and I have to say I'm pretty happy about it.

It would make the most sense for that to be the case (edit - I mean mechanically). Edit 2 - looks like it was confirmed on facebook that this will not be true.

As far as librarian countering them, envision something like the librarian opening a hole into the warp for whatever the c'tan shoots to go through instead of hitting the space marines or something. It doesn't necessarily have to be considered magic countering magic, could be a magic shield thrown up at the last second that the power bounces off (but doesn't have an actual spell for as it's purely instinctual maybe).


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 Marmatag wrote:

My Space Marines are suffering a bit.

Due to the lack of ap on bolters now or something else? Just curious.

Grimgold wrote:I think powers of the C'Tan will get rolled into the psychic phase, it would be weird for a librarian to counter them, but that's a sacrifice I'd be happy to make if I get to choose which powers I'm using. This is the kind of streamlining we've come to expect, and I have to say I'm pretty happy about it.

Cayhn wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:

As for Mortal Wounds. In AoS Mortal Wounds are mostly regulated to Magic and some special attacks. It's not a super common ability outside of Magic but all factions do have some kind of access to it on non-wizards. On top of that there are rules that let you discount Mortal Wounds, usually on a 6, and usually double as an extra save against normal saves.

Thats a problem with AoS. I think it's WAY too easy to get mortal wounds for some races. This was one of the worries I had regarding 8th, the age of mortal wounds spam. Stormcast has tons of mortal wounds, Skaven got easy access and so does a lot of the other factions. I just played a Khorne vs Stormcast where my friend delivered 10 mortal wounds in the first turn against me. It wasn't even fun.

I would say that for races like Necrons, Deldar and Tau, some of their more powerful weaponry would have the Mortal Wounds rule. For example, C'tan powers might get rolled into the Psychic Phase and be counted as the same (although not psychic, close enough). Or, the most powerful weapons such as the Doomscythe Deathray, Annihilator Ark cannon, Tau Railguns or ion weapons, to name some, would get MW special rule.






















I also want to expand on my earlier theory for Denying in the new format and apply it to Tyranids, as I think this could be an opportunity for them to really get back their mojo, at least in terms of Shadow in the Warp and anti-psykerism.


Assuming my earlier theory was correct about how powers are cast and denied, here are my two theorys on Shadow in the Warp

Version 1


This is the more fluff version, that makes it more difficult to access the Warp and thus receive injury, either through overstraining themselves or going mad from the billions of chittering voices in their brain.


Version 2


This is a more neutral version that is more about psychic defence for the Tyranids and one I would be happy to play with.

It should also be noted that in AoS, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. If that follows, Smite spam will not be a thing.

 curran12 wrote:
It should also be noted that in AoS, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. If that follows, Smite spam will not be a thing.

Just one per turn? Is that per-caster, or do you get to pick ONE thing to cast every turn? That would severely limit psychic's potential.

 Jambles wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
It should also be noted that in AoS, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. If that follows, Smite spam will not be a thing.

Just one per turn? Is that per-caster, or do you get to pick ONE thing to cast every turn? That would severely limit psychic's potential.

Each wizard can cast as many spells as it says on their profile/warscroll, however, each spell may only be attempted once per turn per army.

For example, one of the universal AoS spells is Mystic Shield, a straight +1 to a unit's save that pretty much all wizards have access to. However, despite every wizard having access, your army may only attempt to cast it once on your turn, so it can't be sapmmed. In this case, every psyker may have Smite, but you're only gonna shoot it once per turn, though each of your psykers will likely have a list of other spells, unique to them, that they can manifest.

It's the first of the three rules of 1;

Number one, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn.

They did it because spells were not balanced at all, and the number of casters was quite high. So you'd have an entire army with arcane armor (which with cover could get saves to 1+), or summoning an army out of thin air. Even fans of AoS (which I count myself among) don't like to talk about the dark days before the general handbook.

However, the rules of 1 were a band-aid to staunch the bleeding. With thoughtful design, they wouldn't have needed them in the first place, which I'm hoping is the case in 40k cause they felt like kludges until faction spell lists started to come out.

So after discussing this, we came to some realizations:


1. They say psykers are limited to cast the number of powers defined in their mastery level

2. It makes no mention of the powers and schools they know, or have access to.

3. Therefore, it's possible your psykers could have access to multiple schools, and could pick and choose.

I really, really hope it's like this. Having literal mages running around on the field with a lot of diverse spells would make the game so COOL.

 curran12 wrote:

 Jambles wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
It should also be noted that in AoS, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. If that follows, Smite spam will not be a thing.

Just one per turn? Is that per-caster, or do you get to pick ONE thing to cast every turn? That would severely limit psychic's potential.

Each wizard can cast as many spells as it says on their profile/warscroll, however, each spell may only be attempted once per turn per army.

For example, one of the universal AoS spells is Mystic Shield, a straight +1 to a unit's save that pretty much all wizards have access to. However, despite every wizard having access, your army may only attempt to cast it once on your turn, so it can't be sapmmed. In this case, every psyker may have Smite, but you're only gonna shoot it once per turn, though each of your psykers will likely have a list of other spells, unique to them, that they can manifest.

Got it! I like this rule, like you say removes spamming the same powers over the whole army.

 Jambles wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
It should also be noted that in AoS, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. If that follows, Smite spam will not be a thing.

Just one per turn? Is that per-caster, or do you get to pick ONE thing to cast every turn? That would severely limit psychic's potential.

Each different spell can only be cast (or attempted to cast) once per turn. So you could have 3 Wizards on the field, each knowing the 2 base spells, Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield, and they each have their own spells. You can cast each spell once, fail or success with one of those Wizards, and they each have so many spells that they can cast.

It helps to cut down on some powerful combos, and gives you a reason to not rely completely on magic for your armies. When you are forced to choose between buffing your guys, doing some piddly ranged damage, or going all out for a powerful spell, it really makes you think more tactically about what to do, as you can only do so much with your wizard, and it really makes you look for ways to increase your casting rolls and dispell your opponent's spells, or to spend your army points on just more guys on the field.

Each spell can only be used once per turn, period (unless a special rule says otherwise). So, each wizard can use a different spell, but you can't use the same spell from multiple different wizards (even if it fails).

jade_angel wrote:
Each spell can only be used once per turn, period (unless a special rule says otherwise). So, each wizard can use a different spell, but you can't use the same spell from multiple different wizards (even if it fails).

I don't know if I like that for 40k though.

I'd keep it as the current 7ed 'one power per unit'.

So it's kinda like the psykic powers system from first edition dark heresy? I'm okay with that

My thoughts immediately went to Tzeentch Horrors: not only are these guys troop choices but they are psychers with split on top of that! If they're still psychers in 8th they will become the most overpowered unit. (Just a prediction should they not change them)

 mrhappyface wrote:
My thoughts immediately went to Tzeentch Horrors: not only are these guys troop choices but they are psychers with split on top of that! If they're still psychers in 8th they will become the most overpowered unit. (Just a prediction should they not change them)

Perhaps they will not be psykers but simply have ranged weapons, ie, Bolt of Tzeentch, Str 4 AP -2 D1

 Deadshot wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
My thoughts immediately went to Tzeentch Horrors: not only are these guys troop choices but they are psychers with split on top of that! If they're still psychers in 8th they will become the most overpowered unit. (Just a prediction should they not change them)

Perhaps they will not be psykers but simply have ranged weapons, ie, Bolt of Tzeentch, Str 4 AP -2 D1

IIRC in AoS Pink Horrors are wizards but the whole unit casts/dispels once per turn, not each model. Blue Horrors are not wizards. Both Pink and Blue Horrors have a magical flames ranged attack that doesn't count as a spell, it just counts as a normal ranged attack.

Who knows what things will be like in 8th Ed. 40k.

Grey Knights interceptor squads will be the go to anti-death-star unit. Shunt 30", smite deathstar, follow up with psycannons which are going to get better when they overhaul salvo rules, or just stick to incinerators and deal a pile of auto hits. Even basic strike squads are going to get a huge boost of being able to deepstrike in turn 1 in a nemesis strike force and smite a unit well above their points level.

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
Grey Knights interceptor squads will be the go to anti-death-star unit. Shunt 30", smite deathstar, follow up with psycannons which are going to get better when they overhaul salvo rules, or just stick to incinerators and deal a pile of auto hits. Even basic strike squads are going to get a huge boost of being able to deepstrike in turn 1 in a nemesis strike force and smite a unit well above their points level.

Assuming Shunt is still a thing, that it's still 30"

Also Nemesis strike force will be gone GW have said there will be 14 detachments available in the new rules

 Renesco P. Blue wrote:
Grey Knights interceptor squads will be the go to anti-death-star unit. Shunt 30", smite deathstar, follow up with psycannons which are going to get better when they overhaul salvo rules, or just stick to incinerators and deal a pile of auto hits. Even basic strike squads are going to get a huge boost of being able to deepstrike in turn 1 in a nemesis strike force and smite a unit well above their points level.

and where is write they will be like that? are you aware each unit will deeply change in 8th ed?

Here are my hopes:

1. This seems to be a direct port from AoS. I'm hoping that they add the rule of 1. It's not stated in the article whether or not it's going to be in there. I'm hoping that it is.

2. I'm hoping that they remove all of the OP powers like Eldritch storm and invisibility.

I don't care what the difficulty of casting it is. They don't belong in the game.

 Traditio wrote:
Here are my hopes:

1. This seems to be a direct port from AoS. I'm hoping that they add the rule of 1. It's not stated in the article whether or not it's going to be in there. I'm hoping that it is.

2. I'm hoping that they remove all of the OP powers like Eldritch storm and invisibility.

I don't care what the difficulty of casting it is. They don't belong in the game.

I would prefer some psychic powers still be very powerful like that, but cost per warp charge, you choose your powers, and ones like invisibility/storm become warp charge 3. so a mastery level 3 psyche can buy it but then that is the only power and you better really hope you get off that cast by throwing enough dice at it and risking perils.

I would rather Invisibility just be straight up gone. While I don't mind strong powers Invisibility is such a game changer in so many ways that never should've gotten through.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Here are my hopes:

1. This seems to be a direct port from AoS. I'm hoping that they add the rule of 1. It's not stated in the article whether or not it's going to be in there. I'm hoping that it is.

2. I'm hoping that they remove all of the OP powers like Eldritch storm and invisibility.

I don't care what the difficulty of casting it is. They don't belong in the game.

I would prefer some psychic powers still be very powerful like that, but cost per warp charge, you choose your powers, and ones like invisibility/storm become warp charge 3. so a mastery level 3 psyche can buy it but then that is the only power and you better really hope you get off that cast by throwing enough dice at it and risking perils.

That's not how psychic powers are going to work in 8th edition. It's going to be just like in AoS.

The way that you cast a power is that psychic powers have a difficulty, say, 5, and you roll 2d6. If you beat the difficulty, you cast the power, assuming your opponent doesn't try to deny.

So 5 is actually very easy to pull off, since the average 2d6 roll is a 7.

 Traditio wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Here are my hopes:

1. This seems to be a direct port from AoS. I'm hoping that they add the rule of 1. It's not stated in the article whether or not it's going to be in there. I'm hoping that it is.

2. I'm hoping that they remove all of the OP powers like Eldritch storm and invisibility.

I don't care what the difficulty of casting it is. They don't belong in the game.

I would prefer some psychic powers still be very powerful like that, but cost per warp charge, you choose your powers, and ones like invisibility/storm become warp charge 3. so a mastery level 3 psyche can buy it but then that is the only power and you better really hope you get off that cast by throwing enough dice at it and risking perils.

That's not how psychic powers are going to work in 8th edition. It's going to be just like in AoS.

The way that you cast a power is that psychic powers have a difficulty, say, 5, and you roll 2d6. If you beat the difficulty, you cast the power, assuming your opponent doesn't try to deny.

So 5 is actually very easy to pull off, since the average 2d6 roll is a 7.

have they said how psychic powers will work, I was just speculating. for 2d6 system like AOS I would like to see super powerful spells like that be a 9+

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Here are my hopes:

1. This seems to be a direct port from AoS. I'm hoping that they add the rule of 1. It's not stated in the article whether or not it's going to be in there. I'm hoping that it is.

2. I'm hoping that they remove all of the OP powers like Eldritch storm and invisibility.

I don't care what the difficulty of casting it is. They don't belong in the game.

I would prefer some psychic powers still be very powerful like that, but cost per warp charge, you choose your powers, and ones like invisibility/storm become warp charge 3. so a mastery level 3 psyche can buy it but then that is the only power and you better really hope you get off that cast by throwing enough dice at it and risking perils.

That's not how psychic powers are going to work in 8th edition. It's going to be just like in AoS.

The way that you cast a power is that psychic powers have a difficulty, say, 5, and you roll 2d6. If you beat the difficulty, you cast the power, assuming your opponent doesn't try to deny.

So 5 is actually very easy to pull off, since the average 2d6 roll is a 7.

have they said how psychic powers will work, I was just speculating. for 2d6 system like AOS I would like to see super powerful spells like that be a 9+

Yeah they have. It's what we're discussing in this thread. I can't link from work but it's on the Warhammer Community site as of today.

This sounds painful.
Straight up 2d6 results of 10, 11 and 12 inflicting unsavable wounds as opposed fearing a double six and the Perils table.
High risk, questionable reward.

 Jambles wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
It should also be noted that in AoS, you can only attempt to cast a spell once per turn. If that follows, Smite spam will not be a thing.

Just one per turn? Is that per-caster, or do you get to pick ONE thing to cast every turn? That would severely limit psychic's potential.

presumably he means if I have Tigerous, whose ML3, I can't have him cast Smite 3 times a turn.

I hope Zoanthropes warp blast is an actual "weapon" instead of a psychic power then since it would make multiple zoanthrope broods kinda useless since only one would be able to warp blast. Also I wonder if a psyker can fire a weapon and use a psychic power or is the psychic attack power done in the weapons fireing phase now.

Timeshadow wrote:
I hope Zoanthropes warp blast is an actual "weapon" instead of a psychic power then since it would make multiple zoanthrope broods kinda useless since only one would be able to warp blast. Also I wonder if a psyker can fire a weapon and use a psychic power or is the psychic attack power done in the weapons fireing phase now.

depends how the rules work, if you can only cast a power once per unit with it, which is how I suspect the intent is, it won't be too bad.

I'm not sure if I want to see daemon summoning as a psychic power or as an ability on icons or what. I think the way it works in AoS works well. Basically the summoning spell for a particular unit of daemons is on the warscroll/dataslate for the unit and then you cast that with a different unit. You then place the models and they can't move that turn. In matched play you have to set aside the points for the daemons.

also dont forget the rule of one in AoS.

I reakon they'll put this in matched play aswell. Would stop 90% of spam summoning list

mchammadad wrote:
also dont forget the rule of one in AoS.

I reakon they'll put this in matched play aswell. Would stop 90% of spam summoning list

Rule of One?

 Marmatag wrote:
My Grey Knights are loving these changes.

My Space Marines are suffering a bit.

Man, Grey Knights look like they're gonna be AMAZING in 7th
2W 2+ Troops?
YES
Everyone is a Psyker?
YES


All i HOPE is that Crowe gets more Wounds (And make his sword a bit better)
His 2W was a massive sting in his Profile

BrianDavion wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
also dont forget the rule of one in AoS.

I reakon they'll put this in matched play aswell. Would stop 90% of spam summoning list

Rule of One?

There are three "Rules of One" in AoS, which basically serve to keep things from getting stupid in matched play. The pertinent one being that no spell may be attempted to be cast more than once per turn by your army.

 commander dante wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
My Grey Knights are loving these changes.

My Space Marines are suffering a bit.

Man, Grey Knights look like they're gonna be AMAZING in 7th
2W 2+ Troops?
YES
Everyone is a Psyker?
YES


All i HOPE is that Crowe gets more Wounds (And make his sword a bit better)
His 2W was a massive sting in his Profile

I've been thinking about a M42 Crowe for a long time and there's only 3 possibilities.


1. He continues to block the sword's power; Str User AP - D1 Abilities Nada

2. He finally gives into the sword becoming the first corrupt Grey Knight, giving him a massive stat boost and the following weapon: Str x2, AP -3 D D3, Abilities Mortal Wounds

3: He enslaves the blade with his mind and gets some of the effects of the blade (maybe Mortal Wounds) of option 2. He also woundnt get the stat boost.

 Fafnir wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
also dont forget the rule of one in AoS.

I reakon they'll put this in matched play aswell. Would stop 90% of spam summoning list

Rule of One?

There are three "Rules of One" in AoS, which basically serve to keep things from getting stupid in matched play. The pertinent one being that no spell may be attempted to be cast more than once per turn by your army.

that could be problematic if other aspects of 40k where straight transfered over, such as Grey Knight squads hammer hand.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
also dont forget the rule of one in AoS.

I reakon they'll put this in matched play aswell. Would stop 90% of spam summoning list

Rule of One?

There are three "Rules of One" in AoS, which basically serve to keep things from getting stupid in matched play. The pertinent one being that no spell may be attempted to be cast more than once per turn by your army.

that could be problematic if other aspects of 40k where straight transfered over, such as Grey Knight squads hammer hand.

Perhaps particular powers (Primaris?) would have that restriction lifted andimited to 1 per squad.

Timeshadow wrote:
I hope Zoanthropes warp blast is an actual "weapon" instead of a psychic power then since it would make multiple zoanthrope broods kinda useless since only one would be able to warp blast. Also I wonder if a psyker can fire a weapon and use a psychic power or is the psychic attack power done in the weapons fireing phase now.

Likely it'll be the same as 3rd edition; you get the "blast" version all the time (auto success, or succeed on 3 for 2d6), but with a passed psychic test you can "upgrade" it to the Warp Lance (probably 7 on 2d6).

It sounds kinda meh to me, would have rather them remove it and made psychic powers a type of command power. That every race would get something in the list, Maybe remove the stupid Khorne do not get to do stuff here!

Apple fox wrote:
It sounds kinda meh to me, would have rather them remove it and made psychic powers a type of command power. That every race would get something in the list, Maybe remove the stupid Khorne do not get to do stuff here!

Khorne is completely opposed to Psychic powers, to have Khorne have psychic powers would be counterfluffy. Better in my opinion to give a flat bonus to Khorne units when Denying (such as +2 for standard, +3 for characters, +4 for Bloodthirsters and Kharn?)

nordsturmking wrote:
And the Psychic Phase works a bit like magic in WHF i like that.

What do you think about the new rules?

How did it work in WHF? I know how it works for AoS but never played WHF. May you please explain. I am liking the new stuff I am reading, not sure how this would work since you compared it to WHF.

Davor

I guess that mortal wounds can be saved by an inv save. The same should hold against force weapons.
But against perils of the warp the psyker has no save whatsoever.

Every faction will get its own psychic lore. Singular. How does this work with Chaos factions who have multiple themes within the same faction (slannesh/nurgle/tzeentch). Potentially just an oversight on the publicity team's part, or potentially an indication that the various chaos gods will be split into separate factions.

 Deadshot wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
It sounds kinda meh to me, would have rather them remove it and made psychic powers a type of command power. That every race would get something in the list, Maybe remove the stupid Khorne do not get to do stuff here!

Khorne is completely opposed to Psychic powers, to have Khorne have psychic powers would be counterfluffy. Better in my opinion to give a flat bonus to Khorne units when Denying (such as +2 for standard, +3 for characters, +4 for Bloodthirsters and Kharn?)

I did not say anything about khrone having Psychic powers, I mean powers every race has. Tau, Necrons, Khorne. That they can use at different points in the game, The psychic phase is dumb. Just have power like inspiring as a non psychic power for a Hero in the guard. why a zappy stuff for the psychic users. Give every army something that they can use, rather than have a phase that entire Factions are encouraged not to use.

(On the side note, Khorne being opposed to psychic powers is what happens when you get really boring people taking a joke seriously . Lets give the creature made of this power not like this power, Because he actually thinks about it in that way. honestly, if they retcon that I would actually give points up for this edition )

 wuestenfux wrote:
I guess that mortal wounds can be saved by an inv save. The same should hold against force weapons.
But against perils of the warp the psyker has no save whatsoever.

They explicitly say in the article that invulnerable saves cannot be taken against Mortal Wounds.

Since we are guessing, I would say for Necrons their "psychic" powers would be technology but used in the psychic phase or when ever psychic powers are used. I do hope they get rid of the psychic phase and use psychic powers when needed either be it in the movement phase or shooting/assault phase.
As for Tyranids, I am guessing we can have the "use 3 dice and pick the two lowest" or "-3 to leadership" can still apply or let's be mean and have them both.

They have confirmed in facebook that Tau, Necron and Tyranid will not receive a Psychic power table. (Tyranids? They mention 3 but I can't remember the last one)
Maybe they will receibe a "Not psychic table". Personally I have 0 problems with my Tau's having 0 Psychic powers if they get another more fluffy thing.

Davor wrote:
Since we are guessing, I would say for Necrons their "psychic" powers would be technology but used in the psychic phase or when ever psychic powers are used. I do hope they get rid of the psychic phase and use psychic powers when needed either be it in the movement phase or shooting/assault phase.
As for Tyranids, I am guessing we can have the "use 3 dice and pick the two lowest" or "-3 to leadership" can still apply or let's be mean and have them both.

They'll probably bring back the Cryptek abilities that they gutted from 5th in a different form I bet.

I'm not sure but isn't it some kind of hero phase that covers various activity such as psykic, command, pokem...C'tan etc. abilities? Would be a simple enough name to use without pigeon holing all fluff into psykic on the crunch.

My theory is that they're going to remove "schools" at launch and there will be a couple of universal powers every Psyker knows and then characters will have specific ones in their rules.

The way AoS does it is like this. And in the Battletombs (Codecies) for each army, they have a list of spells specific to that army, and your wizards can know one each, in addition to the ones they already know. I think this will replace the schools as we know it.

I also think that the spells will pretty much all be redone, replaced or just taken out, most handed out to specific characters as the special spell they know. If powers like invisibility are still in there, they'll have been rebalanced or repurposed.

If the rest of the game has been revised and rebalanced, I don't see why current broken spells like Invisibility would stay the same or even need to stay in the game, depending on how much they've revised the Psychic section of the rules

 Galas wrote:
They have confirmed in facebook that Tau, Necron and Tyranid will not receive a Psychic power table. (Tyranids? They mention 3 but I can't remember the last one)
Maybe they will receibe a "Not psychic table". Personally I have 0 problems with my Tau's having 0 Psychic powers if they get another more fluffy thing.

Dark Eldar were the third - not Tyranids (who have had strong psykers since 2nd ed.).

It's a safe bet that Sisters of Silence won't be rocking any psykers either.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
also dont forget the rule of one in AoS.

I reakon they'll put this in matched play aswell. Would stop 90% of spam summoning list

Rule of One?

There are three "Rules of One" in AoS, which basically serve to keep things from getting stupid in matched play. The pertinent one being that no spell may be attempted to be cast more than once per turn by your army.

that could be problematic if other aspects of 40k where straight transfered over, such as Grey Knight squads hammer hand.

It's likely that such powers would be repurposed or removed entirely. Back in the Daemonhunters codex, Grey Knights were just strength 6.

Do mortal wounds only affect non vehicle?

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Do mortal wounds only affect non vehicle?

There are no vehicles in 8th.

Apple fox wrote:It sounds kinda meh to me, would have rather them remove it and made psychic powers a type of command power. That every race would get something in the list, Maybe remove the stupid Khorne do not get to do stuff here!

The way I interpret it, each race will have something to do in the Psychic phase, but not necessarily cast psychic powers. Khorne will likely get something similar to the blessings (which have similar effects to magic) from the Blades of Khorne AoS battletome. Basically, Slaughterpriests roll a d6 in the Hero Phase, and on a 4+, the blessing goes off, but on a 1, he takes d3 mortal wounds.

Necrons will likely get C'Tan powers and possibly Cryptek abilities (guess I'll have to scratch build some Cryptek models).

One think I haven't heard mentioned in this thread is that GW did state that Perils of the Warp will still be around. I didn't see them mention how that's work in the article, though. Maybe perils on any double ala the Weirdnob Shaman?

 mrhappyface wrote:

 CadianGateTroll wrote:
Do mortal wounds only affect non vehicle?

There are no vehicles in 8th.

We don't really know that. Though vehicle as a unit type doesn't seem to have been retained (since everything that is unit-type is done either by the stat line or in the "bespoke" rules in the warscroll), GW has stated that there are key words that still have effect. I'd be utterly surprised if there wasn't some sort of "vehicle" keyword that interacted with bespoke special rules that are described as having EMP-like effects and/or biology-based weapons like Poisons.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Galas wrote:
They have confirmed in facebook that Tau, Necron and Tyranid will not receive a Psychic power table. (Tyranids? They mention 3 but I can't remember the last one)
Maybe they will receibe a "Not psychic table". Personally I have 0 problems with my Tau's having 0 Psychic powers if they get another more fluffy thing.

Dark Eldar were the third - not Tyranids (who have had strong psykers since 2nd ed.).

Was going to say...

It'll be interesting to see what balance GW will implement for the psyker-less factions. Maybe something subtle like a 10% point cost decrease? For some reason, for fluffy reasons, I'm thinking it WON'T be resistances to magic. Well, maybe Necrons, since they're soul-less?

Probably just the same thing that they ended up doing for factions that don't have mages in AoS. Nothing, really. Mostly just balancing armies around that.

Sigmarines get a fancy form of magic under a different name that essentially bypasses the interference other mages can give. Khorne gets culty-blood-magic effects, often based or boosted by having their not-mages build up a body count, while also being able to run their own interference as part of the package.

While mages in AoS are certainly potent and filled with utility, they're usually not such a dominant force that you'd feel like you'd be marginalized for putting your points elsewhere. You can get by with or without them for a lot of armies.

 Fafnir wrote:
Probably just the same thing that they ended up doing for factions that don't have mages in AoS. Nothing, really. Mostly just balancing armies around that.

Sigmarines get a fancy form of magic under a different name that essentially bypasses the interference other mages can give. Khorne gets culty-blood-magic effects, often based or boosted by having their not-mages build up a body count, while also being able to run their own interference as part of the package.

While mages in AoS are certainly potent and filled with utility, they're usually not such a dominant force that you'd feel like you'd be marginalized for putting your points elsewhere. You can get by with or without them for a lot of armies.

For example the new Kharadron Overlords have no magic or prayer system at all.

Earlier in the thread, I read the theory that you would add your mastery levels to a spells cast dice to see if you would cast it and the opponent would add their mastery level to the decast dice to see if they dispell it.

That is a terrible thing if they implement it.

That means a ML1 psyker would cast a WC8 power 21/36ths of the time (fair enough) but then a ML3 psyker would dispell it 5/6ths of the time (even better for a ML4). Meaning the ML1 psyker will only get a power off 9.7% of the time. A ML3/4 psyker could basically shut down an entire army of ML1/2 psykers.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Earlier in the thread, I read the theory that you would add your mastery levels to a spells cast dice to see if you would cast it and the opponent would add their mastery level to the decast dice to see if they dispell it.

That is a terrible thing if they implement it.

That means a ML1 psyker would cast a WC8 power 21/36ths of the time (fair enough) but then a ML3 psyker would dispell it 5/6ths of the time (even better for a ML4). Meaning the ML1 psyker will only get a power off 9.7% of the time. A ML3/4 psyker could basically shut down an entire army of ML1/2 psykers.

The theory was mine, and here's why you're not looking at this correctly.

A ML1 psyker represents a basically trained field psyker, such as a Codicer Librarian, Santioned Psyker, low level Chaos Sorceror. Such a psyker should be able to handle basic powers like Smite fairly easily but with a little risk, or the more difficult powers with a little difficulty (WC8). A ML3 psyker represents a very powerful psyker who exceeds normal psykers powers by a lot. Examples being Tiguirius, Mephiston, Farseers, top level Grey Knight Librarians, Sorcerors and Daemon Princes. These beings are powerful enough that they should be able to block such basic abilities with ease. It would be like in Attack of the Clones, with Anakin and Obi-Wan representing a ML1 Psyker, Dooku a ML2, and Yoda just shutting him down completely at ML3. ML4 on the other hand is another category altogether, these psykers being rediculously powerful to the point where a ML1 or 2 shouldn't even be able to challenge them.

From a purely game perspective, it is easily balanced as we have confirmation that the Denying psyker must be within 24" of the caster, and you could also see stipulations such as "A psyker may only attempt to deny one Malediction or Witchfre per turn" as well as points balancing. The first codex to introduce Mastery Levels was the GK 5th Ed and had a straight cost of 50pts per Mastery Level, which applied to both the ML1 Grand Master and ML2 Librarian (upgrading to ML2 and 3 respectively). That's a steep cost to pay, and while seemingly cheap in psychic heavy 7th, a more balanced 8th would see such a cost go back to being steep but useful

 Deadshot wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Earlier in the thread, I read the theory that you would add your mastery levels to a spells cast dice to see if you would cast it and the opponent would add their mastery level to the decast dice to see if they dispell it.

That is a terrible thing if they implement it.

That means a ML1 psyker would cast a WC8 power 21/36ths of the time (fair enough) but then a ML3 psyker would dispell it 5/6ths of the time (even better for a ML4). Meaning the ML1 psyker will only get a power off 9.7% of the time. A ML3/4 psyker could basically shut down an entire army of ML1/2 psykers.

The theory was mine, and here's why you're not looking at this correctly.

A ML1 psyker represents a basically trained field psyker, such as a Codicer Librarian, Santioned Psyker, low level Chaos Sorceror. Such a psyker should be able to handle basic powers like Smite fairly easily but with a little risk, or the more difficult powers with a little difficulty (WC8). A ML3 psyker represents a very powerful psyker who exceeds normal psykers powers by a lot. Examples being Tiguirius, Mephiston, Farseers, top level Grey Knight Librarians, Sorcerors and Daemon Princes. These beings are powerful enough that they should be able to block such basic abilities with ease. It would be like in Attack of the Clones, with Anakin and Obi-Wan representing a ML1 Psyker, Dooku a ML2, and Yoda just shutting him down completely at ML3. ML4 on the other hand is another category altogether, these psykers being rediculously powerful to the point where a ML1 or 2 shouldn't even be able to challenge them.

From a purely game perspective, it is easily balanced as we have confirmation that the Denying psyker must be within 24" of the caster, and you could also see stipulations such as "A psyker may only attempt to deny one Malediction or Witchfre per turn" as well as points balancing. The first codex to introduce Mastery Levels was the GK 5th Ed and had a straight cost of 50pts per Mastery Level, which applied to both the ML1 Grand Master and ML2 Librarian (upgrading to ML2 and 3 respectively). That's a steep cost to pay, and while seemingly cheap in psychic heavy 7th, a more balanced 8th would see such a cost go back to being steep but useful

That would be fine if as you say MLs are a steep increase in points and if they could only deny 1 (Or maybe 2 with a special rule) each a turn. Otherwise if your army doesn't have access to a lvl3 or 4 psyker, there would be no point in taking one.
24" is huge though. That's a 49" diameter on a normal base and a 51" on something like a DP.

Davor wrote:

nordsturmking wrote:
And the Psychic Phase works a bit like magic in WHF i like that.

What do you think about the new rules?

How did it work in WHF? I know how it works for AoS but never played WHF. May you please explain. I am liking the new stuff I am reading, not sure how this would work since you compared it to WHF.

Davor

In WHF wizards had a power lvl from 1-4. In the magic phase the player whose turn it is would roll 2d6 to determine how many dice he would have for casting spells. If a wizard wanted to cast a spell the player had to roll 5+ for a Fireball which was a basic spell and a 13+ for Fire Column which was the most difficult one from the lore of fire for example. He could choose how many power dice from his 2d6 he wanted to use. And he would get a bonus to the roll equal to is power lvl. The opponent could then try to dispell the spell by using is his dispell dice which would be equal to the higher dice roll of the 2d6. And he would also get a bonus to the roll equal to is power lvl.

I hope my explanation was good enough. There is a lot more to the magic phase in WHF but these are the basics.

The entry is quite explicit that there is a limit to the number of times a psyker can try to deny another's power:

Enemy psykers will then have a chance to block these powers if they are within 24″, and again, the mastery of the psyker will dictate how often they can block a power each turn.

Given the mastery referred to is itself a reference to that "which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level" in an earlier paragraph, there's good reason to believe that the limit of denial attempts is equal to the number of powers you can manifest per turn, i.e. the Mastery Level.

Do you not all see the massive issue with balance that method would have? A ML4 psyker will be many many times of magnitude more powerful than 4 ML1 psyker s. He will be able to cast the same number of spells as all of them put together but will be able to deny almost all of theirs and have very very few denied in response.
This is fine fluff wise I suppose but balance wise this is horrendous unless the 4 ML1 psykers are significantly cheaper than 1 ML4 psyker.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
The entry is quite explicit that there is a limit to the number of times a psyker can try to deny another's power:

Enemy psykers will then have a chance to block these powers if they are within 24″, and again, the mastery of the psyker will dictate how often they can block a power each turn.

Given the mastery referred to is itself a reference to that "which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level" in an earlier paragraph, there's good reason to believe that the limit of denial attempts is equal to the number of powers you can manifest per turn, i.e. the Mastery Level.

Well, there was suggestion that this new edition would take an alternate activation system rather than a IGO,UGO system. If such a thing were the case, perhaps the number of spells and denials each psyker can make per game turn are linked. So a ML4 psyker could cast 4 powers and deny none, or deny 4 and cast 0, or 3/1 or 1/3 or 2/2, per game turn?

Perhaps it won't be as I originally theorised, and ML wont be a factor in denying.

My original version

To Deny, select a psyker within 24" of the caster. Roll 2D6 and add the Denier's mastery level. If the total is greater than the caster's psychic test (ie, their 2D6+ML), the power is denied

Revised version accounting for relative ML power levels and Alternate Activation

To Deny, select a psyker within 24" of the caster. Roll 2D6 and add 1 if the ML of the Denier is greater than the ML of the caster. If the total is greater than the caster's psychic test (ie, their 2D6+ML), the power is denied

This balances it slightly, and also accounts for the caster rolling a (resulting in a score of 13-16) where a denier can reach a maximum score of 13, thus unable to deny such a power (representing the caster getting his Over 9000!!!!!! power level)

 Deadshot wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
The entry is quite explicit that there is a limit to the number of times a psyker can try to deny another's power:

Enemy psykers will then have a chance to block these powers if they are within 24″, and again, the mastery of the psyker will dictate how often they can block a power each turn.

Given the mastery referred to is itself a reference to that "which would previously be the same as their Mastery Level" in an earlier paragraph, there's good reason to believe that the limit of denial attempts is equal to the number of powers you can manifest per turn, i.e. the Mastery Level.

Well, there was suggestion that this new edition would take an alternate activation system rather than a IGO,UGO system. If such a thing were the case, perhaps the number of spells and denials each psyker can make per game turn are linked. So a ML4 psyker could cast 4 powers and deny none, or deny 4 and cast 0, or 3/1 or 1/3 or 2/2, per game turn?

This would be A LOT more balanced. Meaning that whilst the ML4 psyker will pretty much auto deny, say 2 of the opponents powers and have a very good chance of casting 2 of their own without denial, it means 2 of the ML1 psykers will actually get to cast a power. Still not totally balanced unless the ML4 psyker is pretty darn expensive.

 Brutallica wrote:
Mortal goes through Invul... Stormshields and terminators better be freakin cheap

Terminators have two wounds now, and smite only inflicts D3, D6 if empowered. So smite would only be able to kill 1-3 terminators, 3 being a rarity. Keep in mind that its closest visible unit too, so put fodder in front of the terminators.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Do you not all see the massive issue with balance that method would have? A ML4 psyker will be many many times of magnitude more powerful than 4 ML1 psyker s. He will be able to cast the same number of spells as all of them put together but will be able to deny almost all of theirs and have very very few denied in response.
This is fine fluff wise I suppose but balance wise this is horrendous unless the 4 ML1 psykers are significantly cheaper than 1 ML4 psyker.

Well this is entirely dependant on whether my theory is correct or not. And also on whether this edition will focus on fluff or gameplay. If its fluff this is fine, as a ML4 Psyker is not 4 x ML1, but rather closer to ML1x2^4 in the fluff. A ML4 Psyker is close or representative of an Alpha level psyker (considering that ML3 like Tiguirius is a high Beta and ML5 Magnus is an Alpha+), where a ML1 would be a high Gamma or low Beta at best.


As I also said, most codexes so far, dating right back to 5th Ed Space Marines, psykers could buy a ML for 50pts. So assuming that a ML1 psyker costs, say, 35pts for the model, and then 50 for the ML for a base cost of 85pts, a ML4 psyker would cost 235pts (before factoring in his rules and gear for added costs).

You're also not taking into account that to date ML3 psykers have represented the peak of normal psyker powers. We're talking, on the Imperial side, the likes of Tigurius, Mephiston and GK Librarians, who are some of, if not the most powerful Imperial psykers, and on the Chaos side you have Sorcerors and DPs. Eldar you have Farseers (who devote their whole life to their psychic powers, which are considerable already as an Eldar). They aren't common or cheap.

On the other hand, where have we seen ML4 psykers? Ahriman, Eldrad? Who else? Fateweaver? Some of the literal top dogs of psykers in 40k? Magnus is the first and only Level 5 and said to be the next best thing to the Emperor or Tzeentch himself.

Edit:

I have no problem letting ML 3 and 4 psykers dominate multiple ML 1 and 2 psykers while the ML 3 and 4 psykers remain on the table, particularly given the former tend to have quite high point costs. Feel absolutely free to believe that putting all of your expensive eggs into a single basket is not going to offer an appropriately tempting target, especially with the indications that you can't hide them in units anymore.

At least 4 ML 1 psykers will probably A) have more wounds overall, and so be on the table longer, and B) be capable of spreading across the board (perhaps even beyond/outside that ML 4's 24" bubble).