Here it is:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/02/new-warhammer-40000-fight-phase-may2gw-homepage-post-4/

Across the board, these changes lead to combats that are more deadly than ever. Generals who successfully coordinate a battlefield-wide charge will be rewarded with a phase of utter carnage, while their opponent will have to work hard to minimise taking damage, and carefully consider their retaliatory options.

I like that some CC took way to long.

Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch). Enemy gun lines will need to be careful about how they position their supporting units, so as to avoid getting dragged into the fight too.

This makes a lot of sense fluff wise. Now you have to keep you units more than 4" away from CC if you don’t want them to get dragged in to it. So no more situations where you are 1" away from a CC and don’t care about it. "There is a Gene Stealer fighting with a Space marine 2 meters away from me but i don’t care what could go wrong"


And lot of stuff got carried over from AoS. I am not sure if i like the activation mechanic. But it gives more room for tactical decisions. And lash whips are gonna be useful again.

Great, IGOUGO system....i cant wait.

Plays just like AoS with the exception of Charges going first. So combat will look like:

Player A's Charging Units
Players B's unit
Player A's unit if already engaged

I love this, amazing!.
Also love the part that you can engage other units currently not in CC if they are within one inch, and they don't get over watch!

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Plays just like AoS with the exception of Charges going first. So combat will look like:

Player A's Charging Units
Players B's unit
Player A's unit if already engaged

Not quite, you assuming that charging units attacking counts as player A going first. Its only said charging units go first before other units So there is a good chance it means

Charging units strike first
Decide who gets to activate first
Player A gets to attack first.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Great, IGOUGO system....i cant wait.

IGOUGO systems can work out pretty well. I thought Dust Warfare did a pretty good job with it adding a Command Phase that gave players the option to get in half actions with some of their units before the turn started off proper. Along with Warfare's reaction system, it kept the inactive player invested in the active player's turn. However, I don't think 8th edition is going to have anything like that. It is probably going to be more of the same.

So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Great, IGOUGO system....i cant wait.

IGOUGO systems can work out pretty well. I thought Dust Warfare did a pretty good job with it adding a Command Phase that gave players the option to get in half actions with some of their units before the turn started off proper. Along with Warfare's reaction system, it kept the inactive player invested in the active player's turn. However, I don't think 8th edition is going to have anything like that. It is probably going to be more of the same.

The all combat at once system kept player interaction because everyone was fighting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

Oh crap i forgot about consolidating into combat lol, guess thats back again boys.

Looks good and I'm pretty positive on it.

One side effect that seems likely though is combat will be get less exciting as the phase goes on.

Player A's chargers attack
Player B now chooses a unit to fit and probably picks their most elite unit so it'll get it's swings in.
Player A probably follows the same logic.

So you'll likely start off with the epic fight between the Deathwing Knights and the Bloodthirster at the start of the phase, and then escalate to the Scouts fighting Flesh Hounds after. It seems opposite of how you'd want to structure the narrative.

Seems Slaaneshi units will do quite well in causing problems outside of their turn. Now maybe Lucius will finally have a purpose!

I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

 Asmodai wrote:
Looks good and I'm pretty positive on it.

One side effect that seems likely though is combat will be get less exciting as the phase goes on.

Player A's chargers attack
Player B now chooses a unit to fit and probably picks their most elite unit so it'll get it's swings in.
Player A probably follows the same logic.

So you'll likely start off with the epic fight between the Deathwing Knights and the Bloodthirster at the start of the phase, and then escalate to the Scouts fighting Flesh Hounds after. It seems opposite of how you'd want to structure the narrative.

Actually it might look quite a bit different than that.

It will likely look more like

DA player activates DW knights to attack the bloodthirster.
Daemon Player activates Fleshounds to attack scouts (because the thirster is either dead, or in no danger because the Knights have already attacked)
DA player activates scouts (if any live)
Daemon Player activates thirster.

essentially you will almost always activate units that have not been attacked yet, unless multiple units are attacking a single unit of your own. You will also likely look to activate your less durable units first. So you might decide that your DW knights will weather the Blood thirster attacks reasonably well, so you attack with your scouts first, believing that they may be wiped out should you not. Very tactical I like it.

Welp. so much for playing my Krieg list again and having fun with it.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Great, IGOUGO system....i cant wait.

Dude, that's alternating activations 100%, if you're going to whine about game mechanics then at least know what those mechanics are.

Side: The previous melee system was 'compare stat sheets in excel to see who's is higher overall and once you recover from your boredom coma whoever had a lower number removes his models.'

I like how you can use the 3 inch pile-in to catch someone in close combat. That's very useful! The alternating activations seem cool too - very cinematic.

I read the part about activation and don't understand.

So you charge, and the squads that charged get to attack first. Afterwards, each side picks a unit one at a time to resolve combats? Is that how it works?

The part about being within 1 inch - does that mean you get to attack other units during combat?

These rules seem pretty good! I like the 3" move after making a charge, that plus the 1" to reach combat seems like it will not allow for much advantage or possible gaming of the system by 'weaving' units inbetween each other that could otherwise happen.

 Asmodai wrote:
So you'll likely start off with the epic fight between the Deathwing Knights and the Bloodthirster at the start of the phase, and then escalate to the Scouts fighting Flesh Hounds after. It seems opposite of how you'd want to structure the narrative.

In AoS it doesn't always work out this way. There are times where you would be better off having a "lower tier" unit go before your more elite units simply because they are fresher and have less casualties. You can also bet on which unit your opponent chooses to activate and hold off, bit of a gamble though.

I'm more interested how the verticality works. If I have 2 different units using a set of ruins, one of the bottom floor and one on the next floor, about 3" up, is the unit on the top floor engaged? What if it's a larger model like a walker or MC? Do we draw from the base or the model? If its bases then obviously they are not, but if its model-to-model then things get a bit....yeah

I'm about an edition behind, so I apologize if this is a known thing: Does unit activation happen simultaneously--for instance, like if 2 Initiative 5 units fought in previous editions--or does it happen sequentially.

Meaning, if you activate a unit and it kills 3 models, are those models removed from play or do they get a chance to strike? And if no chance, I sure hope the defender gets to pick the models that are pulled.

Initiative is gone, orangewhips, it is removed from 8th edition statlines. In this, it is done by activation, so if you activate one unit and they weaken an enemy before it activates, it's exactly that.

That said, it works well as a tactical layer in AoS, because you can direct the flow of a battle very well and fight with who you most want to before they are hit back.

I suppose that means powerfusts and hammers are going to be the new power unit.

Quite possibly. Though who knows where the rules will fall with regards to them.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

Abuse is a possibility but remember that I think we are also getting the ability to withdraw from combat in good order so gunline armies are certainly not DoA.

I just want a system where it feels like any style of army is equally viable if played well. 40K has always been vulnerable to rock-paper-scissors syndrome where certain match-ups favour one opponent over the other from the outset. With CC being easier to achieve but also easier to leave, my hope is that some balance can be restored here. It remains to be seen if this is the case in practice or if it will just create a new set of imbalances.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Welp. so much for playing my Krieg list again and having fun with it.

Yeah, mechanized IG may be functional, but infantry based IG armies are simply going to be way too vulnerable to that gimmicky 4" CC pile in bubble to be viable methinks.

Perhaps, though also remember that the fixed rolls will be helping masses of IG just punch stuff to death as well. And as someone else mentioned, there is withdrawing out of combat.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

Abuse is a possibility but remember that I think we are also getting the ability to withdraw from combat in good order so gunline armies are certainly not DoA.

I just want a system where it feels like any style of army is equally viable if played well. 40K has always been vulnerable to rock-paper-scissors syndrome where certain match-ups favour one opponent over the other from the outset. With CC being easier to achieve but also easier to leave, my hope is that some balance can be restored here. It remains to be seen if this is the case in practice or if it will just create a new set of imbalances.

I think thats what everyone wants. Part of the problem is that there are too many armies operating over too large a scale range trying to portray forces of radically different natures, many that would not face each other in the manner a 40k battle portrays (e.g. Dark Eldar would never face an IG tank company in a pitched frontal firefight the way a 40k battle would start). Part of the problem, at least in this instance, is also simply board space, there isnt enough room for an IG infantry army to properly deploy and spread out, and moving out of CC, even if allowed, can likewise be difficult if there is no room to actually move to.

Did they suggest there'd be a movespeed increase when charging? Or do you just move within 3" during the movement phase, and then pile in the fight phase?

As, they notably said Overwatch still exists, so that can clear up speculation on whether that still exists.

Not sure how I feel about the alternating activation element of combat. Doesn't that kinda penalise armies that will be engaging with multiple units? If you're just running a deathstar and no other melee units, you'll likely be able to maximise your damage within a phase. If you have many small units, your opponent can choose to fight those which haven't activated yet to limit their effectiveness. Not sure how I feel about that, but this definitely has the potential to be interesting.

Breng77 wrote:

essentially you will almost always activate units that have not been attacked yet, unless multiple units are attacking a single unit of your own. You will also likely look to activate your less durable units first. So you might decide that your DW knights will weather the Blood thirster attacks reasonably well, so you attack with your scouts first, believing that they may be wiped out should you not. Very tactical I like it.

That's not exactly correct, your goal should always be to maximize your attacks while minimizing your opponents. With that in mind, you will almost always want to attack units that have not gone yet in order to reduce their attacks against you. Your secondary concern is using your most effective units early in the phase to minimize the effect of casualties. Finally, being able to figure out your opponent's order of activation in advance will let you take risky moves (violations to the first two rules) to gain an advantage. Alternating activations is the part haters miss when they say AoS has no tactical depth, It's absolutely more tactical than any equivalent system in in 40k. I'm happy to see it making the jump to 40k.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Plays just like AoS with the exception of Charges going first. So combat will look like:

Player A's Charging Units
Players B's unit
Player A's unit if already engaged

What of multiple units charging different targets do they all get to go first before the igyg?

If I had to guess, it would break down like this:

All charging units attack
Controlling player chooses first unit that has not charged to attack
Second player chooses

And so on until all units are activated.

 Desubot wrote:

BomBomHotdog wrote:
Plays just like AoS with the exception of Charges going first. So combat will look like:

Player A's Charging Units
Players B's unit
Player A's unit if already engaged

What of multiple units charging different targets do they all get to go first before the igyg?

My understanding is that you don't resolve one combat at a time, but rather all units that are involved in combats.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Welp. so much for playing my Krieg list again and having fun with it.

Yeah, mechanized IG may be functional, but infantry based IG armies are simply going to be way too vulnerable to that gimmicky 4" CC pile in bubble to be viable methinks.

Its a good thing I accidentally sprouted a Stormtrooper army

 Vaktathi wrote:
on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing.

Why? I mean sure, maybe you can't stand three or four units side-by-side with 4"" between them, but there's more then enough depth on a table to checker-board multiple squads.

And you also need to take into consideration that sweeping advances don't exist anymore- so any units that survive a round of combat can just leave on the next turn, which leaves those melee squads out in the open.

For foot guard, two layers of chaff units conga-lined across the board is going to be very difficult for melee units to get past in order to assault the units that matter.

Hahaha, they think khorne berserkers won't be killed by my 50 man conscript blobs. Come closer, we'll be happy to do the charging if we get to strike first!

Few things said here I want to comment on.

Consolidation:
There is no mention of consolidation after combat. If combat is going to be like it is in AoS then there will not be any consolidation. If there is a consolidation move my guess will be that you need to remain outside of 1"

Pile-In:
Pile-In is still 3", however, HOW Pile-In works is now different. In 7th you can simply move models to get into combat range but in 8th they have specifically said that you need to move towards the nearest enemy model. You have a setup where you have a model that can move and have 2 potential enemy models, one from the engaged unit and one not engaged. If the nearest model is from the engaged unit you MUST move towards it, even if you want to move to engage the other model and force the other unit into combat. Now, depending on the distance, you COULD still force the other unit to engage but its going to come down to model positioning.

Effectively Charging will be used to setup where your models are at to maximize Pile-Ins. It's the same in AoS.

ok, so can someone help me understand this as I've looked it over (With work weary eyes) and I'm trying to determine how this works:

So take it that we have a chaos marine unit and a space marine unit tied up from a previous round. 2 units of raptors charge in to the fray to support, would turn activation go as such:

Both units of raptors attack because of charging in and striking first.
It is my turn, so when resolving alternating activation, I have first activation for my chaos marines.
If the space marines survive this, it is then their turn to activate.

and would this concept follow true across the entire field? Eg, I could focus on one side of the field entirely to dominate that area whilst my opponent resolves across from the other side of the field to dominate that side?

Tristanleo wrote:
ok, so can someone help me understand this as I've looked it over (With work weary eyes) and I'm trying to determine how this works:

So take it that we have a chaos marine unit and a space marine unit tied up from a previous round. 2 units of raptors charge in to the fray to support, would turn activation go as such:

Both units of raptors attack because of charging in and striking first.
It is my turn, so when resolving alternating activation, I have first activation for my chaos marines.
If the space marines survive this, it is then their turn to activate.

and would this concept follow true across the entire field? Eg, I could focus on one side of the field entirely to dominate that area whilst my opponent resolves across from the other side of the field to dominate that side?

Say you had another squad of C Marines attacking scouts on the otherside of the table.

it would go (likely) like this.

both raptors attack first.
your turn so you have priority so you use your chaos marines to attack the squad the raptors are on.
enemy turn, they for whatever reason attack with the marines that just got attacked.
your turn you activate the remaining squad on the other side against the scouts.
enemy turn if the scouts live then they attack as thats the last one left.

assuming EVERYONE lives some how.

next turn

Enemy attacks with the marine,
your turn you get to activate one of raptors or c marine squads then it keeps going that way.

Considering you can move out of combat freely, this makes sense.

Also - this doesn't kill the viability of any army. It just means you can't stack gunlines right on top of each other.

I really like this change.

Just noticed another way that these new rules benefit the defender.

They can essentially force an attacking unit to engage more defending troops than they want to. Say three shooty blobs who on their own wouldn't be able to handle a marine unit, or some ork survivors charging them, they rank up together, interspersed, and suddenly the 20 man unit that your combat experts want to charge, is effectively forcing you to fight 60 models, who even though your good in combat, will crush you through weight of numbers, because if you charge one, your'e 3inches of movement will force you to fight the others too.

secretForge wrote:
Just noticed another way that these new rules benefit the defender.

They can essentially force an attacking unit to engage more defending troops than they want to. Say three shooty blobs who on their own wouldn't be able to handle a marine unit, or some ork survivors charging them, they rank up together, interspersed, and suddenly the 20 man unit that your combat experts want to charge, is effectively forcing you to fight 60 models, who even though your good in combat, will crush you through weight of numbers, because if you charge one, your'e 3inches of movement will force you to fight the others too.

I highly doubt you will get all 60 models into combat though.

it really depends on how reach is going to work.

reality its probably going to be 30 instead of 20 which could be good or bad.

Ok admittedly 60 was a bad example, but I bet a truck of boyz wouldn't want to fight 30 marines.

And you can also intersperse your counter charge units with your gun line, so that they can be effective on your opponents turn, instead of having to wait for your own.

Either way, almost all of the ability to affect these things is on the defending player. the charging player, has less options, because he/she has had to put most of their efforts into just getting to the position where they might actually make it to combat.

Yeah this is interesting. You won't be able to snipe particular models in CC without activating nearby bubble wrap. I like this.

secretForge wrote:
Ok admittedly 60 was a bad example, but I bet a truck of boyz wouldn't want to fight 30 marines.

If the Trukk Boyz manage to tie them up for a shooting round that isn't too bad actually.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

secretForge wrote:
Ok admittedly 60 was a bad example, but I bet a truck of boyz wouldn't want to fight 30 marines.

If the Trukk Boyz manage to tie them up for a shooting round that isn't too bad actually.

Gotta soften them up.

speaking of trukks

i wonder how tank shocks and rams are going to work. i could see an interesting tactic of shocking your way into the middle of a bubble wrap and going ham in assault with all the boyz that pop out.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

That 3" bonus move is probably going to be even worse than the old consolidation thing, even if it says "closest". I'm sure it'll be exploited.

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

You don't need spacing... no templates

Seems to me the ability to drag other units into combat is the reason you do need spacing still.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

Abuse is a possibility but remember that I think we are also getting the ability to withdraw from combat in good order so gunline armies are certainly not DoA.

I just want a system where it feels like any style of army is equally viable if played well. 40K has always been vulnerable to rock-paper-scissors syndrome where certain match-ups favour one opponent over the other from the outset. With CC being easier to achieve but also easier to leave, my hope is that some balance can be restored here. It remains to be seen if this is the case in practice or if it will just create a new set of imbalances.

I think thats what everyone wants. Part of the problem is that there are too many armies operating over too large a scale range trying to portray forces of radically different natures, many that would not face each other in the manner a 40k battle portrays (e.g. Dark Eldar would never face an IG tank company in a pitched frontal firefight the way a 40k battle would start). Part of the problem, at least in this instance, is also simply board space, there isnt enough room for an IG infantry army to properly deploy and spread out, and moving out of CC, even if allowed, can likewise be difficult if there is no room to actually move to.

Could be the case. But remember templates are gone so you can pack your models really tight together.

Wait, now there might be rules still missing, but what if you can get into 3 inches without charging. Maybe there is a mechanic in the game that prevent you from moving with 3 inches like AOS, or maybe its a way to let you avoid overwatch at the expense of your charge bonus. Kind of like sneaking up and getting the drop on your enemy.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

That 3" bonus move is probably going to be even worse than the old consolidation thing, even if it says "closest". I'm sure it'll be exploited.

Probably exploitable in both directions.

Would someone please explain to me how consolidation into close combat works?

What it says is that when a unit activates, it moves to the closest unit, even if that unit is not currently in close combat.

But to activate, you already have to be in close combat, right?

What am I missing?

 Traditio wrote:
Would someone please explain to me how consolidation into close combat works?

What it says is that when a unit activates, it moves to the closest unit, even if that unit is not currently in close combat.

But to activate, you already have to be in close combat, right?

What am I missing?

You have to be in close combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean the closest unit is the one you're in close combat with. Another possibility would be that as you move closer to the unit you're in combat with, you come within 1" of another unit.

Formerly Wu wrote:You have to be in close combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean the closest unit is the one you're in close combat with. Another possibility would be that as you move closer to the unit you're in combat with, you come within 1" of another unit.

Right. But I'm assuming that a unit does not activate if it's not currently in close combat, right?

For example, let's assume that A is in close combat with unit B. Unit B is also in close combat with unit C.

A and C belong to player 1. B belongs to player 2.

A activates and kills unit B.

I'm assuming that unit C doesn't get to activate, since B has ceased to be on the table?

And for the record, let me say in advance how bad of an idea this talk of "the closest" is. This is just going to start more arguments about which unit is closest. They should have made it read "any unit within 3 inches to which you can draw a straight line while retaining unit coherency."

 Traditio wrote:

Formerly Wu wrote:You have to be in close combat, but that doesn't necessarily mean the closest unit is the one you're in close combat with. Another possibility would be that as you move closer to the unit you're in combat with, you come within 1" of another unit.

Right. But I'm assuming that a unit does not activate if it's not currently in close combat, right?

For example, let's assume that A is in close combat with unit B. Unit B is also in close combat with unit C.

A and C belong to play 1. B belongs to player 2.

A activates and kills unit B.

I'm assuming that unit C doesn't get to activate, since B has ceased to be on the table?

That would be my assumption, yes.

And for the record, let me say in advance how bad of an idea this talk of "the closest" is. This is just going to start more arguments about which unit is closest. They should have made it read "any unit within 3 inches to which you can draw a straight line while retaining unit coherency."

Since you measure "closest" in relation to the particular model you're moving, not the unit as a whole, then a simple tape measure should be able to solve that problem.

Formerly Wu wrote:Since you measure "closest" in relation to the particular model you're moving, not the unit as a whole, then a simple tape measure should be able to solve that problem.

Fair enough.

I don't think that this is going to be particularly helpful for assault armies.

I just don't see this rule being relevant all that often.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, if anything, if they've removed the consolidation move, this is actually a nerf to assault armies.

Considering the 3' pile in has to be to the nearest model, and it doesn't specify engaged models, then it's unlikely for units to get dragged in unless the charging unit has a decent movement or rolled higher than needed for their charge phase. And you stacked your units shoulder to shoulder, which is really your fault heck, it's something that non assault armies can benefit from! big wave of ork boyz coming down on your head? Throw a counter assault units that piles into other units and forces them to retreat.

For those saying it's gimmick, it's only as gimmicky as overwatch, but at least this has some spacial element to it and not just "Do nothing, get kills".

Beyond that there's not much information on assault. the alternate activation we kinda already knew about, and "weapons and units will have special rules that'll make them more useful" was obvious from the start.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

You don't need spacing... no templates

Templates are gone, but an area of effect style weapon might still be in the game because that is the case with AoS. As for spacing, you'll need to be at least 4 inches away from other units, because someone could kill the closest model and then consolidate to your nearby unit, maybe five inches just to be on the safe side. You can also remain safe by removing casualties from the middle of your unit, so they can't collapse a flank and be on you like white on rice.With a good deployment and casualty management, it will be a non-issue.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
it's something that non assault armies can benefit from! big wave of ork boyz coming down on your head? Throw a counter assault units that piles into other units and forces them to retreat.

What counter assault unit can Krieg use?

Can they have rough riders? Or ogryn?
Maybe they have shooty rough rider and no ogryn.

Ah yes, I forgot about the Death Riders actually, pretty decent unit, oops.

But no Ogryns

With the removal of templates,units will be clumped together now, so a lot more tablespace actually.

My Guess
All Charges are resolved in a separate step
All Fast Attacks are resolved in a separate step

Player2 may choose to activate a combat that his side has not done an action

Player1 may choose to activate a combat that his side has not done an action.


Player 1 Charged into Guardsman successfully, he piled in 3" to catch a Heavy Weapons Team

Player 2 decides instead of striking back, to retreat the Heavy Weapons team

Player 1 has no models that has yet to activate.

Player 2 decides to strike back since he has Yarrick in the squad!

Lobukia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

You don't need spacing... no templates

nordsturmking wrote:

Could be the case. But remember templates are gone so you can pack your models really tight together.

While true in some respects, the realities of the table between terrain, model count, need for bubblewrap, etc will still be a limiting factor. If you plop down an IG army with 90 models, including a dozen or more big heavy weapons teams, your space to make ensure no CC consolidation bubbles exist is going to be basically nonexistent.

To say nothing of how silly tables look with combat units of infantry clumped up shoulder to shoulder all the time

 Vaktathi wrote:

Lobukia wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

You don't need spacing... no templates

nordsturmking wrote:

Could be the case. But remember templates are gone so you can pack your models really tight together.

While true in some respects, the realities of the table between terrain, model count, need for bubblewrap, etc will still be a limiting factor. If you plop down an IG army with 90 models, including a dozen or more big heavy weapons teams, your space to make ensure no CC consolidation bubbles exist is going to be basically nonexistent.

To say nothing of how silly tables look with combat units of infantry clumped up shoulder to shoulder all the time

So basically, you have to choice between keeping your units together to benefit of buffs, support and bubbles, or separate them to evite the units charging you from taking into a meele battle more units... I don't think thats a bad thing. They are both valid tactical choices.
And, to be honest, I don't know if assault units will be capable of sustain 2-3 units of Guardsmen hitting them in the head with fixed to hit rolls. So maybe if they charge more than one unit of infantry guardsmen, they can bite more that they can chew.

Well, my point really is that there isn't a choice, with that many models they just go wherever they can, particularly with a relatively static horde army like IG infantry.

There's a reason infantry IG armies didnt show well in editions with consolidation into new combats allowed. It's just not possible to clear adequate space.

Fixed to hit rolls wont make much of a difference anyway unless the IG are hitting on 3's now or something, if it's 4's then unless the opponent was weapon skill 7+ before, therr wont be any change.

Vaktathi:

It's not a consolidation move. It's a pile in move.

At the risk of sounding alarmist, this makes me think I'm not gonna be playing my Cult Mech or Skitarii units very often, as assault-heavy armies are already my bane. Most of the Cult Mech units melee like wet noodles, and the actually melee useful units are in no way equal to other armies' melee strengths.

 Traditio wrote:
Vaktathi:

It's not a consolidation move. It's a pile in move.

I just slipped back into the old term. The effect is much the same however.

ashmanonar wrote:
At the risk of sounding alarmist, this makes me think I'm not gonna be playing my Cult Mech or Skitarii units very often, as assault-heavy armies are already my bane. Most of the Cult Mech units melee like wet noodles, and the actually melee useful units are in no way equal to other armies' melee strengths.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusions without seeing rules. Electro-priest weapons might get a major buff, and I would imagine Ruststalkers will get some crazy movement rules.

Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn.

Now the Unit of Space Marines have the option of wussing out at the cost of their shooting phase or charging extra units into the fray, or just hanging about in melee hoping they roll first activation.

On the flip-side if I charge two squads of TWC into the first squad of Marines, kill them with the first unit and use the second unit of TWCs 3" free move to tag a nearby unit of enemy Space Marines the fighting continues?

 Bobthehero wrote:
*stuff*

Taking a quick glance at their army list, there is the aforementioned Death Riders, but there's also Engineers. Since sweeping advance seems to be gone, a +4 armor save and a decent LD means they can stick into an assault against non-elite assault units and drag them down. Plus that Hades drill sounds like FUN(tm).

That said, we don't know how assault and non-walker vehicles work now. So for all we know the answer could be "a Leman Russ squadron"

Another though with assault is that, since the pile in is compulsory, it might be possible to have "bully" units that you stick close to body guard your squishier units, so that assault units have to move to the other flank to avoid dragging in a unit they don't want to fight.

Edit

Dakka Wolf wrote:Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn. "

You're not reading it right, actually. Pile in comes first, which means that if those three thunderwolves' nearest models are the original squad and I presume they still have to keep cohension, they can't move into another squad unless it's closer (at which point mutli-assaulting would be preferable)

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn.

Incorrect. You pile in when you're activated, not after the combat's been resolved.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
*stuff*

Taking a quick glance at their army list, there is the aforementioned Death Riders, but there's also Engineers. Since sweeping advance seems to be gone, a +4 armor save and a decent LD means they can stick into an assault against non-elite assault units and drag them down. Plus that Hades drill sounds like FUN(tm).

It's a miracle when my Engineers last more than the turn they charge, thus letting my enemy consolidate towards my gunline. The Drill was usually taken out before it could do much, because its a bit hard to get saturation with it.

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
Am I reading this right?
I attack one squad of five Space Marines with one squad of three Thunderwolves, after Overwatch the Thunderwolves roll for charge, make it and vaporise the Space Marines, I use my free three inch "Consolidation" to tag a second squad of Space Marines who happened to be too close, the Space Marines have their activation and attack my TWC then the melee phase ends and with it my turn.

Incorrect. You pile in when you're activated, not after the combat's been resolved.

Consolidation my arse.
That means cheap sacrifices can still block a melee unit's paths as easily as they could in 7th, easier now that flame templates and blast markers are gone.

Vaktathi wrote:I just slipped back into the old term. The effect is much the same however.

The effect is completely different. It's the difference between progressive motion and lateral motion.

Thus the reason GW keeps saying: "Waves. Waves. PUT YOUR UNITS IN WAVES. Did we mention that WAVES are a good idea?"

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

 Traditio wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I just slipped back into the old term. The effect is much the same however.

The effect is completely different. It's the difference between progressive motion and lateral motion.

Thus the reason GW keeps saying: "Waves. Waves. PUT YOUR UNITS IN WAVES. Did we mention that WAVES are a good idea?"

That's a rather small difference that often will be irrelevant or easily worked around, and unless the deployment zones are radically changing, when you have a high model count army, you're going to have to spread out, you can only stack units so deep before you run out of room, especially stuff with IG heavy weapons team bases. Particularly if I'm not spending 40 minutes at the start of the game carefully deploying everything in neat ordered rows with measured spacing and whatnot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

we can hope, but if they follow the trend of every codex they have ever had, I would be doubtful. Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

We can hope though.

ashmanonar wrote:
At the risk of sounding alarmist, this makes me think I'm not gonna be playing my Cult Mech or Skitarii units very often, as assault-heavy armies are already my bane. Most of the Cult Mech units melee like wet noodles, and the actually melee useful units are in no way equal to other armies' melee strengths.

I was literally laugh out loud when i read the noodles part. I imagine a guy holding a bunch of wet noodles trying to defend himself. Man this is too funny. I almost pissed in the pants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

GW said they had people play test the game a lot. That makes me optimistic and i think the age of the broken stuff is almost over.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

Thats the problem with basically every codex out there. Even the "OMG OP" factions like Eldar, Tau, Marines and Daemons, what its OP is really 3-4 units or combos. The other 80% of the codex is normally from mediocre to totally useless.
A better internal balance will be a nice welcome in 8th edition if they achieve that.

PD: Vespids

Well the being able to pull units into combat rule.. can be useful for CC units.. that don't actually want to wipe out a unit during their turn, just to be shot at the following.. well potentially cop less shots.. with the disengage rules

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

There have never been true dark days for eldar. Eldar currently have a host of undercosted units that need nerfs or price increases.

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

There have never been true dark days for eldar. Eldar currently have a host of undercosted units that need nerfs or price increases.

Hahahaha.... No.

Hahahaha.. yes. You sound very much like someone who wants easy wins with little effort. Because that's what the current Eldar codex is all about. The Eldar are currently defined by their overpowered units. What few underpowered units they have are very unimportant.

There is a reason that eldar tournament appearance over the last few years has risen to rival the combined flavors of marines, and it ain't cause they're weak.

(Reminds me of those peeps that say the riptide is fine and somehow don't notice the 3-5 riptides in every other tournament list.)

The laughing doesn't bolster your argument, either. It's a cheap attempt to dismiss my position when all the evidence is stacked against you.

Basic Eldar is one of the few lists that can compete with the Superfriends lists if I remember right?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Basic Eldar is one of the few lists that can compete with the Superfriends lists if I remember right?

Aye. Most armies at events are crazy combos of allies or ridiculous formations. Eldar? They just bring a CAD.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Basic Eldar is one of the few lists that can compete with the Superfriends lists if I remember right?

Yes, it is. Tournaments that try any kind of comp or formation restrictions just hand the whole thing to Eldar, since they have the most broken troop the game has ever seen. And hopefully will ever see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm HOPING the new GW regime sees the wisdom of making every model they produce at least fieldable.

 Rippy wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I hope all Harlequins have a "these guy strike first" rule. Outside of Initiative 7 or higher enemies, which are extremely few and far between, they always strike first.

I really hope Eldar and their friends don't get "we are better in every way" rules again, and if they do, their models better be priced properly to compensate.

The whole thing about Harlequins is that they're glass cannons, and even then only in close combat! They're the most Eldar of the Aeldari. I actually dislike Craftworlds because they are very tough, with great firepower, high speed, and powerful guns, backed up by units that can be phenomenal in close combat too (oh, and forgot that they have the best psykers in the galaxy). Harlequins only take the speed and close combat bits (and they got weird psychic powers; not necessarily the best psykers by any means, just very different psychic abilities).

So, yeah, speed. That's them. Striking first in combat is as much their thing as it is a Genestealer's, a Dark Eldar Archon's, or a Daemon Prince's.

Martel732 wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Every time Eldar get an update, they get "because Space Elfs should just be better" treatment, and rocket to the top of the power heap if they werent already therr. And I say that as someone with 5k+ points of Eldar.

Not so! I distinctly recall shelving my pre-Wraithknight Eldar for years on end. Dark days, my friend, dark days.

Right now Eldar is just almost right. Just fix a few underpowered units and they'd be fine.

There have never been true dark days for eldar.

You clearly didn't play Eldar during 3rd pre-Serpent...

I played against them. They were still a respectable list. Not marine good, but decent. I know decent is code for crap with Eldar now, but I can't help that.

Martel732 wrote:
I played against them. They were still a respectable list. Not marine good, but decent. I know decent is code for crap with Eldar now, but I can't help that.

It is my hope that Eldar will finally be decent in 8th edition.

In fact, I hope that Eldar is the MOST decent faction in all of 8th.

I hope that they're even more decent than the Tau.

And I hope that wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents and wraithguard are the most decent units in the entire army list.

I am also confused by this. I'm actually thinking that fighting and shooting is resolved in the same kind of phase. That would explain the fall back option to let other units shoot and what wounds get resolved first. Im thinking 2 main phases first is movmeny next is shooting/combat.This whole thing is foggy to me though. I'm suprised at how much info on 8th they are actually dropping.

It's still a bit confusing without the whole of the rules to glue it all together.

nateprati wrote:
I am also confused by this. I'm actually thinking that fighting and shooting is resolved in the same kind of phase. That would explain the fall back option to let other units shoot and what wounds get resolved first. Im thinking 2 main phases first is movmeny next is shooting/combat.This whole thing is foggy to me though. I'm suprised at how much info on 8th they are actually dropping.

Phases break down like this:

Movement: Move units, run units, retreat units from combat

Psycic Phase: Mental Pew Pews with 2d6 to meet the required roll to use a power.

Shooting: Dakka Dakka. No real change except that only Pistols can shoot when within 1" of an enemy unit.

Charge: Pick a unit to charge with one of your units that is w/in 12". Enemy unit Overwatches and then the chosen unit move 2D6, hopefully closing with the enemy unit.

Combat: Charging units attack first then alternating combats between players.

Morale: Hinted its similar to AoS Battleshock. Will find out on the next rules spoiler

Looks like my slannesh daemons still get to strike first!

Considering given information I would say pile-in to nearest enemy is not a nice thing to HtH oriented army. Here is the example: (sorry for poor painting, it is a nightmare to draw via phone)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/a5st7gy6cffo6kd/1.png?dl=0

Red guys is about to charge yellow ones. Yellow uses tank as melee cover:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/okb5jcj7xgqmx2r/39468153-1851-4b5b-9aef-233423b667fd.png?dl=0

And now 3 of 5 red models have to waste their attacks on the tank as it is the closest model:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4iruc6jazbuzqf6/57bc05ac-71ec-4956-b693-85214375a61b.png?dl=0

Although I don't wish to stand in the way of those who want to trash entire lists, builds, armies and factions due to the interpretation of how a single aspect of a single rule within a single phase may or may not play out, In a game that hasn't even been released yet and about which we don't know all the info, I just say this. Please send me your various disbanded forces.

Yeah , I get a feeling ebay is going to be gold mine when 8th launches.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
So consolidations into new combats is back in a slightly changed manner...on paper that sounds like it'll kill any idea of running an IG infantry based army viably, there just isn't enough tablespace for such armies to fit and have adequate spacing. We'll see if I'm wrong, but the ability to move about and lock new units in combat in such a "gimmicky" way really feels open to abuse, just the way consolidating into new combats was in 3rd and 4th.

Abuse is a possibility but remember that I think we are also getting the ability to withdraw from combat in good order so gunline armies are certainly not DoA.

I just want a system where it feels like any style of army is equally viable if played well. 40K has always been vulnerable to rock-paper-scissors syndrome where certain match-ups favour one opponent over the other from the outset. With CC being easier to achieve but also easier to leave, my hope is that some balance can be restored here. It remains to be seen if this is the case in practice or if it will just create a new set of imbalances.

I think thats what everyone wants. Part of the problem is that there are too many armies operating over too large a scale range trying to portray forces of radically different natures, many that would not face each other in the manner a 40k battle portrays (e.g. Dark Eldar would never face an IG tank company in a pitched frontal firefight the way a 40k battle would start). Part of the problem, at least in this instance, is also simply board space, there isnt enough room for an IG infantry army to properly deploy and spread out, and moving out of CC, even if allowed, can likewise be difficult if there is no room to actually move to.

I suppose with the removal of templates you wont need to spread your guys out as much.

I quite like that idea at least. Will make tight close formations look cinematic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As you're in combat if you're within an inch now.

Do you think it'd be legal to just advance your troops into combat, thus not triggering overwatch but forfeiting a guaranteed strike first?

One thing that took me some time to figure out with this rule in AoS is that as long as you end the "pile in" closer to the model that was closest to you before beginning the move, you are allowed to move even closer to a second unit if able.

So the model that is the closest to me this turn might not be so on the next turn. It allows for a lot of movement during combat and a big pile of fighting models can move across the board as models pile and casualties removed.

So if you want to lock models down and stop them from moving, make sure to get into base contact.