I am not sure which sub-forum this would belong to, so if it isn't in the right place, Mods please move it, thanks.

I wanted to throw out some of the speculation I have for Windriders.
SInce "turboboosting" is being rolled into the same "Advancing" step as Run, I think Windriders are going to have a pretty big M stat.
I'd be willing to bet more than 12". Likely close to 18". But no more Jump-shoot-jump
And/or their Advance move might be 2D6"

Onto weapons. I also think "Relentless" will no longer be a thing. So even Bikes will have a -1 to Hit with Heavy weapons (like the Scatter Laser)
Shuriken weapons will almost certainly be AP -1, although GW might play around with the S and # of shots. If they do it will be less S, but more shots if anything
So a Shuricat would either be S4 Assault 2 like now, or S3 Assault 3

And for those of you who are hoping that the weapon upgrades go back to 1 per 3, just look at the current kit. It isn't going away soon and there are 3 Scatters, 3 Shuricats and 3 Shuricannons in the box of only 3 Bikes.
Fully upgraded units will not be going away....

...unless Black Guardian Windriders make it into the rules and stay Elite (or whatever the 8th equivalent is). That way the kit can stay relevant and be a dual kit. 1 unit can be Windriders that can only take 1 per 2 weapons, or you can make them a unit of BGs that can take all weapons.

What do you think? Does this sound likely?
WIll -1 to hit for Scatterbikes help them become balanced?
Will Shurikens being AP -1 make Shuricannons a better option? Especially considering that vehicles in 8th now fit the "niche" unit that the Shuricannon was better at in 7th?

My theory is that Scatterbikes will not be the go-to loadout because of the outcry for the community, but Shuricannon bikes may be the new hotness.

-

Given how AoS handled things I'd bet on Windriders just moving out of Troops/Core/Battleline entirely (except possibly for some highly-restricted Saim-Hann theme list).

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Given how AoS handled things I'd bet on Windriders just moving out of Troops/Core/Battleline entirely (except possibly for some highly-restricted Saim-Hann theme list).

As long as a Saim-Hann style detachment allowed it, I would be cool with that. Jetbikes have been Troops/Core for over a decade and have been my preferred troop since 4th ed (which is why I started Eldar)
I doubt GW will deny this option that so many players have.

-

Well, they denied orks our nob troops.

I think you're right on most counts. The main difference is that I expect Scatter Lasers will go down a point in Strength, and have no AP modifications. That'll help them go back to their role of infantry-killer rather than light-tank killer. Without denying vehicles their armour saves and having 1 point lower strength, vehicles will be more resilient to them.

It's possible that their Advance rule lets them move 2d6", but it could even be further. In fact, it might just be a double their movement if their movement is 12". Agreed that they'll almost certainly lose Jump-Shoot-Jump. I wouldn't be surprised if almost all bikers get a rule that lets them Hit & Run in a way though, so these bikes may still be very hard to keep locked down.

You'll still have the option to take all Scatbikes, because they sold them like that. I wouldn't be surprised though if they just bump up the points of having these heavy weapons in the unit, and/or of the unit as a whole.

Anyways, that's my thoughts on it.

 koooaei wrote:
Well, they denied orks our nob troops.

The difference is that Nobs always had to be "unlocked" as Troops. Bikes have been flat out Troops since the 4th ed codex, maybe even before.
What you are suggesting has already happened to Eldar. Wraithguard used to be unlockable Troops if you take a Spiritseer. That can no longer happen, yet Bikes remained Troops
In the past decade, GW has only denied Troops that had to be unlocked, but to my knowledge, units that were always Troops, stayed Troops

That said, I could see Windriders not being Troops/Core for any Eldar army unless it is Saim-Hann


@ Yarium: I agree. Scatter lasers will not have an AP modifier. I could see them taking the S down to 5, but it may very well stay 6. Now that AV is gone, that difference is not as significant.
For example, a S5 Scatter laser can wound a T7 Dread just as easily as a S6 scatter laser can cause a HP on an AV12 Dread.
The fact that the new T7 8W dread also has a 3+ armour, means that taking Scatter to S5 is a HUGE nerf for them.

If Rhinos are say, T6 with a 4+ save and most likely 5-6W (just a guess mind you), it will be much harder for a S6 Scatter laser to take it out compared to an AV11 with only 3HP.
A full unit of 3 Scatterbikes can take out a Rhiino in 7th. If the Rhino stat is anywhere close to my guess above and Scatter lasers end up being -1 to Hit for moving, even with S6 they will not be able to take out the 8th ed Rhino in 1 turn (which is a good thing as it will encourage the use of weapons that have AP modifiers and Mortal wounds)

-

I hope GW will keep consistent movement value for all eldar jetbikes, to make things easier to remember. If that's indeed the case, a 12" is the max they can give them, otherwise it would make melee-focused jetbikes too fast.
So my guess would be a 12", with a better advance move than standard models.

Shuriken-based weapons might get a -1 rend instead of bladestorm. But AoS has many things that can inflict mortal wounds on rolls on 6, so they might keep some form of rending. Mortal wounds are way too powerful to be spammed, but a -3 rend on a to-wound of 6 could exist.

If I had to re-design the weapons, I'd make the shuri catapults S4, -1 rend, assault 2, the scatt las S5, no rend, heavy 4, and the shuri cannon S6, -1 rend, heavy 2, assuming no relentless-ness.

I really doubt Shuricannons would be Heavy or only 2 shots. They literally fire light weight, near invisibly thin discs at a very high rate. if they change at all, it would be S5, Assault 4

Edit: On Morale: Even though Windriders are currently LD8, I think they will probably be LD7 now. This will mean that a unit of 3 is almost immune to Morale (and LD8 would be immune)
Lets say 3 Windriders take 1 casualty. At the end of the turn, if they roll a 6, then still pass at LD7, but if they take 2 casualties, a roll of a 6 would kill the last bike
This makes larger units of bikes a bad idea overall.

If Windriders become LD7, hopefully Warlocks stay LD8. I have always wanted Warlocks to be more useful in bike units.

-

Bikes retain ability to upgrade weapons. Scatterlaser and Shuriken Cannon need better parody, such as -1 saves for Cannon but more shots for Scatterlaser. Bikes will have a -1 to hit roll.

The 48" total move in a turn needs to be drastically toned down.

All speculation, time will tell.

I have no idea how they will balance the units with insane mobility.

The scatterlaser is a problem, but not nearly as big a problem as being totally and completely unable to ever catch the windriders.

I can deal with Strength 6 heavy 4 with no AP, but i can't deal with unit that is uncatchable.

As with everything I'm just hoping for balance. To me that means fairly pointed units with rules that make them a fair choice in any army, but not a must have.
That's an across the board hope for every unit/army in the game. But more specifically for scatter laser jet bikes here's hoping they retain their speed, but those weapons need to be toned down in strength and perhaps even range. To me they're speed would preclude them from needing a long range cannon, it would be more like an assault rifle.

I hope they're nerfed into the ground

As someone who thinks Eldar were way over tuned this edition, I don't think they will have to change wind riders much for 8th. Scatter lasers doing a single wound a hit would put them out of the running for anti-vehicle work, and a 0 ap means they won't be good against heavy infantry either. I'm betting that MSM is gone (too easy to abuse), so battle focus will probably be rolled into the Eldar's movement phase.

I would advise people try not to speculate too hard on a single unit. Even if GW were to just throw out the stats for them now, not knowing the full context could lead to runaway speculation and 'sky is falling' reactions. But then again...this IS Dakka...

Oh, something that I forgot to mention: With cover providing + to armour save, I highly anticipate Windrider to only have a 4+ armour to start with.

whether Jink exists in 8th or if moving fast (Advancing) grants a +1 armour similar to how turbo-boosting granted cover bonuses in prior editions, this would FINALLY be a good representation of how "Eldar rely on speed for durability"

I actually have my fingers crossed for this. 4+ sv naturally, but moving at full M stat grants +1 armour or choosing to Advance does. They would really "feel" like they should.
It would also be another way to penalize Scatterbikes (without nerfing them into the ground):
Do you want to stay still and not take the -1 to hit? Or move and get +1 armour? That could be a serious choice.

-

Scatterbikes are overpowered because they are actually overpowered

27 points for 4 shots at 36" and strength 6 from a T4, Sav+3

Let's compare that directly to a unit of SM Devastators using Heavy Bolters

27 points for 3 shots at 36" and strength 5 from a T4, Sav+3

Maybe it's a bad comparison. People complain about Tau, let's see how they do with 36" shooting, with Crisis Suits...

52 points for 4 shots at 36" and strength 7 from a T4, Sav+3

Oh, what about an IG Heavy Weapons Team, those guys are pretty cost efficient...
25 points for 3 shots at 36" and strength 5 from a T3, Sav+5


I understand there are probably some better examples to be found, but it's not difficult to see that Scatterbikes are simply mathematically amazing. Even with ignoring a lot of their bonuses such as access to Jink and the increased Mobility.

Even a simple point cost increase, maybe like 2~5 higher for the basic bike and another 5 for Scatter Laser would have made the Windriders pretty balanced.

If they don't have a way to ignore the -1 to Hit if they move and the Assault Move is removed (and instead they just have a really high base Mv value) that'll help, especially if Scatter Lasers are AP0, Damage 1.

Of course, it'll still depend on points values and if Windriders are still Troops and can take 1 Scatter Laser each. It's a slight possibility that they'll be moved to FA or be split into 2 units (A troop units with 1 weapon upgrade per 3 and a FA/HS option that can take one each).

The only thing that would really nerf jetbikes is if they simply changed one sentence on the datasheet from "Any windrider can exchange...." to "One in every three windriders can exchange.....".

It would be a very simple change that would completely change how that unit works.

I would expect all bikes to be able to purchase a heavy weapon.
I would expect -1 to shoot that heavy weapon.
Shuriken weapons are probably Rend +1. Lasers most likely will have no Rend.
Jetbikes will likely be susceptible to Morale. Killing 1 jetbike might see you lose the unit.
Str 6 shooting in general will probably get a nerf - in that most things will have more wounds and armor in general, and you will need Str 8-10 to do reliable damage to vehicles, unlike how mass Str 6 murders everything in the game.

Something as simple as a Dreadnaught will actually be difficult for Scatterlasers to kill now. Scatbikes will mow down infantry, but struggle against walkers and vehicles - as they should.


5+ to Wound, with a 3+ save and 8 wounds. If I did my math right, three current Scatterlaser bikes will do less than 1 wound a turn to a dreadnought.

One final edit: this all sums up to say that I just don't think it will be useful to bring loads of scatterbikes to a game - even if they remain a powerful option. You won't be able to deal with diversity of threats like you could in 7th Ed.

My guess is something like the Rhino will have T6 and 4-6 Wounds with a 3+ or 4+ save as well.

I've been using Scatterlasers as a huge baseline for my shooting since 5th edition; back then it was 9 War Walkers and Wave Serpents. It is a really good baseline for shooting, then add in other tools, such as Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Wraithknights and Warp Hunters for more all comer type design. I'd pay 180 points for 6 Scatterlaser War Walkers and 166 points for 6 Scatterlaser bikes. But, bikes were great as they could get Obsec in a CAD and their turbo boost late game had significant impact.

I don't think the Scatterlaser role will substantially change, but finding the right balance between Scatterlasers and other weapons will be key. This is where Scatbikes in masses may not become the defacto choice.

 Galef wrote:
@ Yarium: I agree. Scatter lasers will not have an AP modifier. I could see them taking the S down to 5, but it may very well stay 6. Now that AV is gone, that difference is not as significant.
For example, a S5 Scatter laser can wound a T7 Dread just as easily as a S6 scatter laser can cause a HP on an AV12 Dread.

But with S6 they wound twice as often...

The fact that the new T7 8W dread also has a 3+ armour, means that taking Scatter to S5 is a HUGE nerf for them.

Scat lasers aren't supposed to be anti tank weapon....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Youn wrote:
The only thing that would really nerf jetbikes is if they simply changed one sentence on the datasheet from "Any windrider can exchange...." to "One in every three windriders can exchange.....".

It would be a very simple change that would completely change how that unit works.

Ain't happening since they went for box of 1 bike rather than box with 3 bikes

High elves have a Bravery of 6 unless they are elite units in which case their Bravery is 7. What they means is eldar guardian on Jetbike will have a 6 most likely.


3 Jetbikes take 1 casualty in the turn 1+1d6 - 6 means they only lose a second bike if another 6 is rolled. So, they aren't immune to Moral but they are most likely near immune.

Silver spears on the other hand should have a 7. Which will make them near immune in squads of 3.

With the new To Wound chart released, I and thinking the Scatter lasers will remain S6 as they no longer wound T4 on 2+, yet they'll wound T7-T11 on 5+

I think it is also a good speculation that Shuriken catapults are likely to be S3 now. if they are Ap -1 like we all assume, being S3 will make them less able to kill Vehicles/MCs, yet also allow weapons like Guass (which I also suspect will be AP -1) to be a bit different (i.e. keep their S4)

My personal guess:

Bike/Cavalry move speeds will be 10"

The concept of Jetbikes will cease to exist.

Scatterlasers will be heavy 4 strength 6 still, but with no save mod.

The new wound chart and -1BS when firing heavy weapons on the move are a notable nerf to scatbikes against most targets anyway.

If I had to speculate on further changes, I'll bet Galef is right on the money with armor, and they'll probably also switch Windriders back to one in three, while letting Black Guardian bikes take heavies across the board but in an Elite or FA slot. Points changes are on the table too of course.

My bet is that scatterbikes won't be nerfed into the ground, but will be nerfed rather significantly. They need to be, not only for external balance, but for internal balance too: give folks a reason to want Guardians, Dire Avengers or Rangers.

 Marmatag wrote:
My personal guess:

Bike/Cavalry move speeds will be 10"

The concept of Jetbikes will cease to exist.

I don't disagree that Jetbikes and Bikes are likely to be the same "type" of unit. however, I am almost positive that Eldar Jetbkes will significantly faster than most other bikes.
If a Space marine bike ends up having a 10" M stat, Windriders could likely have an 16"+ M stat. Bikes in general tend to move over twice as fast as a person can run, so if Eldar are M 7" (very likely), then Windriders will be a minimum of 14"

That is assuming that Bikes don't get an accelerated Advance move, like 2D6.


Being able to Split fire is kinda worrisome for me. We can pretty much assume that WIndriders (at least as Black Guardian Elites as Jade_angel says above) will retain the ability to take all weapon upgrade (becasue, again the kit allows) so you could have mixed units with some Scatters and some Shuricannons and still wreck face.

On Morale, someone brought either in another thread or on Facebook that Elves in AoS are mostly Bravery 6. With the way morale works, I kinda feel like this will be the case for most Eldar. So a unit of Windriders that lose 1 bike will take Morale at D6+1-6, therefore could lose 1 model if a '6' is rolled. I like this because it means that 3-man units are at least slightly vulnerable to Morale.

-

If your average bike has a move of 10 inches, and an Eldar bike had a move of 12 inches, that wouldn't be so bad. It's the turbo boosting and stuff that gets out of hand.

Scatter lasers are a heavy weapon. Meaning if they move, they're hitting on 4's.

Hitting on 4's and wounding on 3's isn't so bad, compared to hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's as before. This drops their effectiveness at shooting by 40%.

But to me, movement + range is still the big issue. They can easily and comfortably do all of their damage out of range of most things.

 Marmatag wrote:
If your average bike has a move of 10 inches, and an Eldar bike had a move of 12 inches, that wouldn't be so bad. It's the turbo boosting and stuff that gets out of hand.

But that's the thing though, if Run/Turboboost has been rolled into a D6 or 2D6 "Advance" move as part of the move phase, then the egregious 36" Turboboost is thankfully gone.
Run is D6" and bikes and/or cavalry are probably only 2D6". That means that the regular M stat for individual bikes can now be what represents the differences between units.
If Marines have M6", Marine bikes will almost assuredly be M12" (not 10).
I am really confident that Eldar bikes will be at least M15", if not 18"

18" move + 2D6 is a max of 30". Much better than the 48" they could go before.

Side Edit: I just realized that Dark Eldar Reavers might finally be faster than Windriders. Afterall, that is the entire reason Reavers are less armoured.

-

There's nothing wrong with Scatbikes that being shifted over to Fast Attack wouldn't solve.

They will still be scatty

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
There's nothing wrong with Scatbikes that being shifted over to Fast Attack wouldn't solve.

Yes there is something wrong with that. GW has already established Jetbikes as a core for one of the major Craftworlds and quite plentiful on other Craftworlds.
Some of use started Eldar with Jetbikes and have very few (if any) actual infantry. Jetbikes no longer being Troops would invalidate a major army type (which GW has confirmed will not happen) that has been around since WAAAAYY longer than they dreaded Scatterbike spam was a thing.

If anything, Troop Windriders will revert back to 1 per 3 and Elite Black Guardian Windriders will still be able to take all special weapons. This is the bare bones worst case scenario and we have already seen a detachment that allows tons of Elites. So Scatterbike spam will still exist in 8th. PERIOD. It just might be better balanced (fingers crossed)

However, I am glad to see the changes so far. If Scatters only wound Marines on 3+ and will likely hit on 4+ (they are Heavy and Relentless is likely gone) AND stripping HPs is gone, then Scatter lasers are in a MUCH more balanced place. Even if they stay "cheap" and spammable, they'll hardly be egregious.

Based on recent reveals, here's my new prediction:

Basic guardians/windriders are back to BS3. Black Guardians/windriders will be BS4.

Scatter Laser will stay S6, and will wound both Marines and Bikers on a 3+, Imperial Guard on a 2+, and almost all vehicles on a 5+.

Jetbikes won't ignore the BS penalty, with their benefit being a huge Movement rate that ignores terrain, 2d6 Advance, and will be able to shoot after Falling Back (which will be broken until they fix it in a year).

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
I hope they're nerfed into the ground

This. I purposefully modeled my recently remodeled bikes with catapults and shuriken cannons one to three. Done. I like my cheese melted on round toast or cold and blue with an anchovy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Yarium wrote:
Based on recent reveals, here's my new prediction:

Basic guardians/windriders are back to BS3. Black Guardians/windriders will be BS4.

Scatter Laser will stay S6, and will wound both Marines and Bikers on a 3+, Imperial Guard on a 2+, and almost all vehicles on a 5+.

Jetbikes won't ignore the BS penalty, with their benefit being a huge Movement rate that ignores terrain, 2d6 Advance, and will be able to shoot after Falling Back (which will be broken until they fix it in a year).

I like it.

Fingers crossed for nerfing them to balance.

they should be tuned down or appropriately costed, but the new edition partially does that if it removes ap completely and is just a 4 shot str 6 as it will be only wounding t3 models on a 2, t4 on 5's. I do agree they should probably lso see BS down to 3 so average 2 hits, and 1 wound on a space marine or necron per scatter bike. I do sort of like the movement they get as it makes for interesting games planning moves against it and where they could go/ so keeping units with clear sight lines to most places they can hide. they are still pretty fragile if they cannot break LOS

One other possibility that I didn't see mentioned. Scatbikes may receive the same treatment as Broadsides. In other words, they don't have the same Scatter Laser we see on the Vehicles, but a down-graded version, either in rate of fire, Str, or both.

Models are not invalidated, but perhaps, less desirable than before.

 Charistoph wrote:
One other possibility that I didn't see mentioned. Scatbikes may receive the same treatment as Broadsides. In other words, they don't have the same Scatter Laser we see on the Vehicles, but a down-graded version, either in rate of fire, Str, or both.

Models are not invalidated, but perhaps, less desirable than before.

I wish they had left the rail gun alone on broadsides, that nerf meant everybody took missiles as they were so much better. I am seriously hoping they change them back this edition. now sure the pathfinder rail gun option should probably stay the same str 6 ap1 (now rend -3 or whatever)

So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

50 pts a model and I'm good.

Martel732 wrote:

50 pts a model and I'm good.

Several things are wrong with that statement.
1) we have no idea what the points scale is. Windriders could be 50ppm, but Tac Marines could be 30ppm

2) so much of what 'broke' jetbikes before was their movement.
Jump-shot-jump and 36" turbo-boost could be gone (hopefully), and that dramatically puts Windriders back into the realm of "a few point more than a Marine is fine"

3) we don't know the stats for the Windrider.
We can be sure that the bike will have Twin-catapults and can upgrade those to Scatter or Shuricannon, but that's about it. They could have 4+ armour for all we know.

Personally, I am hoping that a basic Windrider is LESS than twice the points cost of a basic Marine, and does not double its own cost when upgraded.

-

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

I doubt scatter lasers will get an ap at all, likely will have scatter lasers at str 6 ap 0 4 shots and shurican cannons at str 6 ap -1 3 shots that way you have to choose extra shot or minus save

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

I doubt scatter lasers will get an ap at all, likely will have scatter lasers at str 6 ap 0 4 shots and shurican cannons at str 6 ap -1 3 shots that way you have to choose extra shot or minus save

I think he is referring to the TL shuri-catapults. With the new rule leak, TL now just double the shots and since shuri-catapult are currently Assault 2 TL on windriders....If the weapon profile does not change then a shuri-catapult will be dishing 4 shots and most likely at -1AP.

I have a feeling that scatterlaser and/or shuri-cannon will see significant changes. With scatterlaser being anti-infantry and shuri-cannon as anti-heavy infantry.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

I doubt scatter lasers will get an ap at all, likely will have scatter lasers at str 6 ap 0 4 shots and shurican cannons at str 6 ap -1 3 shots that way you have to choose extra shot or minus save

I am really starting to think that Shuriken weapon will have less Strength. S3 for Shuircats, S5 for Shuricannons, but both will have AP -1. Combine with the fact that they can both wound any target, this wound better represent the light weight discs thrown, which really shouldn't have the same penetrating power as a bolter projectile. Shurikens shred, they don't punch through.

I had originally suspected that they would get more shots too, but after seeing how Twin-linked works, I hope Cats stay Assault 2, because Assault 6 for the bikes would be RIDICULOUS!
Shuricannons can be assault 4, Str5, AP -1 though

Oh, btw, there is a chance that Scatter lasers become Heavy D6 like they were a few editions ago. I kinda hope not, but GW seems to like bringing back old rules lately.

-

I can see scatterlasers being S6 AP- D1 and shred (only when S>T) to keep its roll as an anti-infantry but barely scratches MC/Vehicle. Currently scatterlaser has a 5/6 chance of wounding a T4 and below per hit. With the addition of shred it will be 8/9 per hit which is only about a 5% increase. Also, with cover being +1 or 2 to AS infantry will still be harder to kill with scatterlaser compared to now. More interesting will be how will they change shuri-cannons!

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

50 pts a model and I'm good.

Several things are wrong with that statement.
1) we have no idea what the points scale is. Windriders could be 50ppm, but Tac Marines could be 30ppm

2) so much of what 'broke' jetbikes before was their movement.
Jump-shot-jump and 36" turbo-boost could be gone (hopefully), and that dramatically puts Windriders back into the realm of "a few point more than a Marine is fine"

3) we don't know the stats for the Windrider.
We can be sure that the bike will have Twin-catapults and can upgrade those to Scatter or Shuricannon, but that's about it. They could have 4+ armour for all we know.

Personally, I am hoping that a basic Windrider is LESS than twice the points cost of a basic Marine, and does not double its own cost when upgraded.

-

I'm hoping they are overcosted so I can go an edition without seeing them.

Just get rid of turbo boost and cap their move at 10"

Strength 6, -0 AP, heavy 4 doesn't scare me on that platform.

Martel732 wrote:

I'm hoping they are overcosted so I can go an edition without seeing them.

I don't even know how to respond to that without breaking several forum rules....

Pretty sure I saw someone working on a "salty" orkmoticon. I think that would be the proper response.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

I'm hoping they are overcosted so I can go an edition without seeing them.

I don't even know how to respond to that without breaking several forum rules....

You could, I don't know, expect to get into a fight when you start asking questions about scatterbikes? Remember all those Proposed Rules threads that disintegrated into arguments about whether scatterbikes were unfair in principle or fair in principle and undercosted in practice?

Damn straight I'm salty about those things. I'm SO sick of seeing them.

I'm only talking moderately overcosted here. Just enough that they're rarely used, but still usable.

Martel732 wrote:
Damn straight I'm salty about those things. I'm SO sick of seeing them.

I'm only talking moderately overcosted here. Just enough that they're rarely used, but still usable.

But over costing them would mean I get to bring less of them. I'd rather bring more that are mediocre than less that are still good.
What you are asking for is an invalidation of a play style that has been around for decades and is what got me personally started with Eldar.

Wishing them to be "so bad they'll be rarely used" is crossing the line. I would never wish the same against your Blood Angels, even if that is effectively what happened to them in 6th/7th.
I hope Blood Angels do well in 8th, as with every other army. I would hope you would wish the same for Windrider based armies.


-

Invalidation is too strong. I want them to NOT be the power choice, so *I* don't have to see them spammed. The best way to do that is just slightly overcost them. That makes them rare, but usable.

Martel732 wrote:
Invalidation is too strong. I want them to NOT be the power choice, so *I* don't have to see them spammed. The best way to do that is just slightly overcost them. That makes them rare, but usable.

I don't want them to be a "power choice" either, but I don't want them to be so expensive that bringing around 20 (which is about how many I own including characters) becomes such a liability that the army is crap.
Overcosting them is NOT the best way. Making them better balanced in the 8th system (so likely on 4+ save, no more Jump-shoot-jump or ridiculously high Advance move, etc) can make them more balanced WITHOUT making the cost a lot.
We already know that Scatter lasers (assuming they stay as they are, Str6, 4 shots AP0) will probably have -1 to hit on moving Bikes and will only wound T4 on 3+. They also won't be as good at popping vehicles because vehicles now have armour saves and way more wounds than their previous HPs.

Those changes alone make Scatterbikes much less of a "power choice". We can also guess that Shuricannons will have AP -1. So Scatterbikes may have better internal balance amongst the other choices the unit can take.
But slapping +10 or +15 ppm 'just because' doesn't make them balanced. It means you can take less of them.....which invalidates the play style.

I should also add that if we use their 7th ed stat as reference, 20ppm would be reasonable (30/35ppm with weapon upgrade), but it sounds like you want them to 50ppm, which is ridiculous

-

Am betting jet bikes can Shoot,Advance (In any direction) and Charge in the same turn.

So, it will look like:

Bike moves 10", Shoots, Advances 1d6", Charges 2d6"

Or
Bike moves 10" (From behind rock), Shoots, Advances 1d6"(Back behind rock)

Let eldar be mid tier at best. Then I could actually play more of them.

Simple....move them to Fast Attack choice. Then if you really want to play that Saim Hann themed force, you choose the datasheet that has Fast as troop options (sure, you may lose some command points, but you're choosing a unique organization). Same would work for Ravenwing. There is absolutely no reason to fill them as Troop choices.
Scatter laser probably still 4 shots, but S6 is no longer devastating to T4 and there will be no AP adjustment. Shuricannons at a -1 AP will make them a more viable choice (I'm a huge fan of shuri weapons in general)

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Invalidation is too strong. I want them to NOT be the power choice, so *I* don't have to see them spammed. The best way to do that is just slightly overcost them. That makes them rare, but usable.

I don't want them to be a "power choice" either, but I don't want them to be so expensive that bringing around 20 (which is about how many I own including characters) becomes such a liability that the army is crap.
Overcosting them is NOT the best way. Making them better balanced in the 8th system (so likely on 4+ save, no more Jump-shoot-jump or ridiculously high Advance move, etc) can make them more balanced WITHOUT making the cost a lot.
We already know that Scatter lasers (assuming they stay as they are, Str6, 4 shots AP0) will probably have -1 to hit on moving Bikes and will only wound T4 on 3+. They also won't be as good at popping vehicles because vehicles now have armour saves and way more wounds than their previous HPs.

Those changes alone make Scatterbikes much less of a "power choice". We can also guess that Shuricannons will have AP -1. So Scatterbikes may have better internal balance amongst the other choices the unit can take.
But slapping +10 or +15 ppm 'just because' doesn't make them balanced. It means you can take less of them.....which invalidates the play style.

I should also add that if we use their 7th ed stat as reference, 20ppm would be reasonable (30/35ppm with weapon upgrade), but it sounds like you want them to 50ppm, which is ridiculous

-

It was hyperbole for sure. Currently, they are worth 37 ppm model. Maybe with 8th ed changes, they will be a true 27 ppm model, but that is ruined if they make them 15 ppm.

Did you see the "power" for the Rubric Marines? GW said that untis will have points cost for Match play, but for free/narrative play, they have been given "Power levels".
4 Rubrics + Sorceror is Power 8 no matter how they are equipped. adding 5 models adds +6 up to 20 total models for Power 24 total.

Super weird. It doesn't look like Windriders will have to pay anything different for Scatter lasers. 5 Scatterbike will be the same Power level as 5 Shuricat Bikes

-

I don't do free/narrative play, so i don't have to care about power.

 Galef wrote:
Did you see the "power" for the Rubric Marines? GW said that untis will have points cost for Match play, but for free/narrative play, they have been given "Power levels".
4 Rubrics + Sorceror is Power 8 no matter how they are equipped. adding 5 models adds +6 up to 20 total models for Power 24 total.

Super weird. It doesn't look like Windriders will have to pay anything different for Scatter lasers. 5 Scatterbike will be the same Power level as 5 Shuricat Bikes

-

I doubt they will give open play the every one a heavy weapon option, I am betting on it being an option in the competitive rules. of course I have no proof of it being that way just an old man's hunch

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I doubt they will give open play the every one a heavy weapon option, I am betting on it being an option in the competitive rules. of course I have no proof of it being that way just an old man's hunch

Gotta agree with G00fy on this one; they'll probably make it only an option for competitive play, so that way they can smooth it out while still saying all your models are legal

Actually, I'll bet the Black Guardians will be the out for that one: troop Windriders will probably be limited to 1-in-3, or even only catapults, while Black Guardians will sit in an Elite or FA slot.

All your models are legal now. (Also, power-level-based narrative games may see some of the same problems as some units in AoS, where if you don't take every option they legally can, you're gimping yourself.)

 Yarium wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
I doubt they will give open play the every one a heavy weapon option, I am betting on it being an option in the competitive rules. of course I have no proof of it being that way just an old man's hunch

Gotta agree with G00fy on this one; they'll probably make it only an option for competitive play, so that way they can smooth it out while still saying all your models are legal

I don't know, the Rubric Marine datasheet looks like that main template for the unit and that mathc play will just add points cost, but otherwise not alter which models can take what.

So if the Windrider datasheet shows 1 per 3, or all can take weapon upgrades, that is how you'll be able to build them in ANY form of play.
Something I find interesting it using both Power levels and Points cost at the same time may create a better balance

Using the Rubrics for example, in a 50 power lever game, you could be 2-3 units with whatever (legal) loadout you want. When you then apply points costs, though, those same Rubrics might be well more expensive than another units also valued at 50 power level. So that would force you to either drop models or options to meet BOTH the power level and points cost for even play.

maybe

-

The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

 Karhedron wrote:

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

^^^This guy gets it.

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.
But Scatter laser spam in 7th was effective for several reasons: range, speed of the platform, and stripping HPs.
The basic changes to the main rules we know so far are painting a clear picture that Scatterbikes will be much less effective. Like around 50% less effective against so many targets.

The will likely even be worse against their intended targets too, Infantry, due to cover adding +1 to armour saves. Marines in cover will have a 2+ save and only be wounded on 3+ by Scatters.
So yeah, Scatterbike spam will almost assuredly still be possible, but it isn't likely to be the competitive choice. And I like that.

-

 Galef wrote:
...Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view...

So...Dark Eldar (one special weapon per five, one heavy weapon per ten on Warriors), Necrons (two S4 shots or one S5 shot is all you're getting out of Troops), Tyranids (one bio-cannon per three Warriors, nothing on the rest), Orks (one gun per ten Boyz), and non-Farsight Tau (the S5 spam is kind of borderline, but they're nothing like the anti-everything killing machine scatterbikes are) have joined the Imperium now?

I wouldn't mind current scatbikes if a scatlazer cost 25 pts. Not 10.

I would hope they sort the nonsense about them having a 3+ armour save for no good reason.

 Karhedron wrote:
The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

Still too effective for a weapon that goes on every bike.

Martel732 wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:
The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

Still too effective for a weapon that goes on every bike.

depends on how much they cost. If they are 20+ points they are not too effective.

 Galef wrote:

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.
-

No, that's a balanced game point of view. No other Troops unit in the game gets to spam heavy weapons the way Windriders do. If they shift them to Fast Attack, then fair play move on. However, if they remain Troops, they damn well better be nerfed hard.

Also, shuricats had better not get -1 AP, nor should anyone else's basic infantry weapons. Shuricannons, sure, they are a heavy weapon after all. Shuriken weapons can keep Bladestorm and get an occasional -3 AP, but the blanket AP -1 to basic infantry weapons is unacceptable.

My turn to say this guy gets it.

Eldar Guardians have 1 heavy per 10, so there is that.
I am not opposed to the "Troop" jetbikes having 1 per 3, I just don't think GW will do it because the kit allows each bike to have any weapon
Black Guardians could be the solution by having them be Elites and being able to take any weapon while the Troop Windriders only get 1 per 3. That change I would like very much.

But what I am opposed to is Jetbikes no longer being Troops in any form or the basic jetbike being nerfed and overcosted to the point that they are unappealing even in friendly games.
Given what we now know about points (Marines are 13ppm, Multi-metla is 27ppm) I think Scatter lasers should not exceed 15ppm in any case.

-

Woah! Did not realize there was such dislike on scatbikes...Maybe because my FLGS is pretty competitive group that I do not even bat an eye seeing scatbike spams.

I guess scatbikes just cripple a lot of non-competitive builds such as orks/IG/and etc. But against Riptide wing/ Gladius/Admech/Barkstar/etc they do not seem to be OP.

I am speculating/hoping that scatbikes be given a high Power Rating for open/narrative games but a comparable point cost on other armies competitive builds. I mean they will most likely lose that insane mobility of 36" turbo (rightfully so) and scatterlasser is actually comparable to heavy bolter in 8th (assuming sactterlaser is S6 AP- D1 Heavy 4). So my opinion will be that they should cost more than a marine with HB but less than a marine on a bike with HB.

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Guardians have 1 heavy per 10, so there is that.
I am not opposed to the "Troop" jetbikes having 1 per 3, I just don't think GW will do it because the kit allows each bike to have any weapon
Black Guardians could be the solution by having them be Elites and being able to take any weapon while the Troop Windriders only get 1 per 3. That change I would like very much.

But what I am opposed to is Jetbikes no longer being Troops in any form or the basic jetbike being nerfed and overcosted to the point that they are unappealing even in friendly games.
Given what we now know about points (Marines are 13ppm, Multi-metla is 27ppm) I think Scatter lasers should not exceed 15ppm in any case.

-

Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Eldar Guardians have 1 heavy per 10, so there is that.
I am not opposed to the "Troop" jetbikes having 1 per 3, I just don't think GW will do it because the kit allows each bike to have any weapon
Black Guardians could be the solution by having them be Elites and being able to take any weapon while the Troop Windriders only get 1 per 3. That change I would like very much.

But what I am opposed to is Jetbikes no longer being Troops in any form or the basic jetbike being nerfed and overcosted to the point that they are unappealing even in friendly games.
Given what we now know about points (Marines are 13ppm, Multi-metla is 27ppm) I think Scatter lasers should not exceed 15ppm in any case.

-

Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

I do not get this fixation with "Troops" when it is simply a designation no different than Elite/FA/HS. I get it in 7th when troops gained an advantage by having ObSec but with 3/14 FOC that was released for 8th, troop did not gain any special rule. Also, I am fairly confident that there will be FOC that will not make troops mandatory and instead will make Elite/FA/HS be the main focus. That should solve the problem of "spammability".

Martel732 wrote:
Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

The sad part is, I don't think that them being Fast Attack will make a hill of gold worth of difference. As was mentioned several times in several places, there are 14 different basic detachments, and one of them is almost guaranteed to be Fast Attack oriented for all the White Scars, Ravenwings, Saim Hann, and Speed Kult players out there.

Unless being a Jet Bike also comes with a significant game penalty, like being unable to secure an objective at all, I don't think that this is going to improve Scatbike lists in opponent's eyes.

Either their Power Level/Point Cost has to be ridiculous, or the Scatterlaser they will get will be a severely nerfed version of what they have now (see Tau Broadside Suits for reference).

Then the eldar rage will continue i suppose.

Martel732 wrote:

Jetbikes should not be troops. Period. In any list. Especially when they can all upgrade to a heavy weapon. That makes them troops that are better than marine devastators or CSM havocs. Scatterlasers on tanks for 10 pts is fine, but for jetbikes, its currently worth 20 pts easy.

Being Troops has little to do with how powerful a unit is. It has to do with how common or readily available a certain type of unit/wargear an army can call upon.
It is why Grey Knights can take Terminators as Troops.
Normally Termies are Elites in other armies, but because the GKs have enough Tactical Dreadnought Armour for literally every single one of their battle brothers, Termies get to be Troops.
Likewise, White Scars and Ravenwing can take bikes as Troops: because they have a large number of them available and enough battle brothers trained in mounted combat.

Eldar are the undisputed masters of anti-grav tech. Most Craftworlds, especially Saim-Hann, probably have enough jetbikes for every single guardian to ride into battle. This is especially true since they are a "dying" race. They more Eldar that die, the more gear becomes available to distribute amongst the survivors

-

There is actually a big difference between lists that access to non-tax troops and those that don't. So all troops need to be tax units or not tax units.

I really don't care about the fluff-based argument, I only care about balance and fairness. I don't see how unlimited undercosted units with incredible movement and tremendous firepower are fair.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't see how unlimited undercosted units with incredible movement and tremendous firepower are fair.

Those kinds of units aren't fair. But making them not-Troops isn't the best answer.
The best answer (because it also satisfies the fluff, which is important even if you don't think it is) is making them cost appropriate with reasonable speed and firepower.

-Make the weapons they have access too less effective, which 8th seems to have already done with the update To Wound chart and -1 to hit for heavy weapons (and Relentless likely gone)
-Make them have the more appropriate armour save of 4+
-Take away the Jump-shoot-jump and 36" turbo-boost, replace this with a flat M stat of around 14-18" and 2d6 Advance move
-Keep them about the cost of 2-3 Guardians with weapon upgrades costing roughly 1-2 Guardians more

If those changes are not enough for you, you aren't looking for balance, you are looking for revenge.

-

" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I can't say anything about the cost without knowing what guardians cost. They should cost a LOT more than space marine devastators. That's a more fair comparison.

Martel732 wrote:
" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I disagree that GW doesn't think fluff is important. So many of their design choices are fluff based. They just haven't been very good at it. That's a distinct difference.

I actually agree with you on the range. I would not mind 24" Scatter lasers. Especially since it seems very likely that Eldar will have very high M stats across the board.
I would be very surprised if Jetbikes have less that 14" moves, probably 18" as long as they get rid of the turboboost.
24" Scatter laser would also mean the Shuricannon needs to go to 18" or so.

Also keep in mind that the comparison between Scatter laser and Assault cannon will be dramatically different in 8th due to the AP system.
Scatters in 7th did damage but forcing tons of saves. Assault cannons had to rely on 6s
if the Rubric Marine Soulreaper is any indication, Assault cannons will be AP -2 (-1 to represent AP4 and an additional -1 for Rending)
Assault cannons shoulf cause WAY more wounds than Scatter lasers in 8th.

-

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I disagree that GW doesn't think fluff is important. So many of their design choices are fluff based. They just haven't been very good at it. That's a distinct difference.

I actually agree with you on the range. I would not mind 24" Scatter lasers. Especially since it seems very likely that Eldar will have very high M stats across the board.
I would be very surprised if Jetbikes have less that 14" moves, probably 18" as long as they get rid of the turboboost.
24" Scatter laser would also mean the Shuricannon needs to go to 18" or so.

Also keep in mind that the comparison between Scatter laser and Assault cannon will be dramatically different in 8th due to the AP system.
Scatters in 7th did damage but forcing tons of saves. Assault cannons had to rely on 6s
if the Rubric Marine Soulreaper is any indication, Assault cannons will be AP -2 (-1 to represent AP4 and an additional -1 for Rending)
Assault cannons shoulf cause WAY more wounds than Scatter lasers in 8th.

-

But they won't because they come in ones and twos and scatterlasers come in the dozens. Eldar equip their toasters with them. I suspect opportunity cost for assault cannons will make them unplayable crap as usual.

 Karhedron wrote:
The box allows the option to upgrade all windriders to shuricannons or scatter lasers. I would bet strongly that the new Datasheet for them will allow every bike to carry one, just like they do currently.

The thing is that this will not necessarily make them as powerful as they are now. Relentless is going away meaning that they will probably have a -1 to hit when they move whereas twin-linked shuricats will now be getting 4 shots at normal BS.

Also, with tanks getting an armour save, Scatter lasers won't be anywhere near as good at stripping hull points anymore. Pus the fact that tanks have more wounds than they did hull points will make them even less effective.

Let's consider moving scatter bikes firing at a Dreadnought in 7th and 8th editions for a comparison since we have dreadnought stats. Let's also assume that the scatter laser is heavy 4, damage 1 and Ap0.

In 7th edition the bikes needed 3s to hit and 6s to glance so 27 shots were needed to kill a dreadnought by glancing off all 3 hull points. 3 bikes would normally take just over 2 rounds of firing to kill a dread (assuming front shots).

In 8th, the bikes will need 4s to hit, 5s to wound but then the Dread gets a 3+ save and has 8 wounds to chew through. Now it takes a whopping 144 scatter laser shots to kill a Dread on average. 3 Scatter bikes would take 12 rounds to kill a Dreadnought!

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

do you really think the problem of scatterbikes in 7th was about destroy a dread? seriously? if is true they listen to community sure scatterbike will be underpowered, ANY eldar list at major tournaments in last 2 years play lot of them and not for just veichles hunting they killed anything, they need a revision, period.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" which is important even if you don't think it is"

It's not just me that doesn't think it is important. GW doesn't think it's important on the tabletop AT ALL.

Cut the scatterlaser to 24" so its more in line with the assault cannon as well. 36" is too much for such a cheap weapon. That, or make it MUCH more expensive.

I disagree that GW doesn't think fluff is important. So many of their design choices are fluff based. They just haven't been very good at it. That's a distinct difference.

I actually agree with you on the range. I would not mind 24" Scatter lasers. Especially since it seems very likely that Eldar will have very high M stats across the board.
I would be very surprised if Jetbikes have less that 14" moves, probably 18" as long as they get rid of the turboboost.
24" Scatter laser would also mean the Shuricannon needs to go to 18" or so.

Also keep in mind that the comparison between Scatter laser and Assault cannon will be dramatically different in 8th due to the AP system.
Scatters in 7th did damage but forcing tons of saves. Assault cannons had to rely on 6s
if the Rubric Marine Soulreaper is any indication, Assault cannons will be AP -2 (-1 to represent AP4 and an additional -1 for Rending)
Assault cannons shoulf cause WAY more wounds than Scatter lasers in 8th.

-

But they won't because they come in ones and twos and scatterlasers come in the dozens. Eldar equip their toasters with them. I suspect opportunity cost for assault cannons will make them unplayable crap as usual.

I actually expect assault cannons to be one of the best options in the game, already ap4 with rending so they will have great rend -X likely and at str 6 they can hurt anything. razerbacks with 8 shot str 6 AP-2 will be hotness. scatter lasers if they lose AP then wounding SM on 3's and they still get normal armor so they are less effective but still pretty good. personally I would rather they nerf my jetbike shooting than their movement though.

Being Troops has little to do with how powerful a unit is. It has to do with how common or readily available a certain type of unit/wargear an army can call upon

but in a game where 2/3 of games was objective control and/or maelstrom a TROOP which move to 36 IS a factor or are you playing another game?

 blackmage wrote:

Being Troops has little to do with how powerful a unit is. It has to do with how common or readily available a certain type of unit/wargear an army can call upon

but in a game where 2/3 of games was objective control and/or maelstrom a TROOP which move to 36 IS a factor or are you playing another game?

I don't disagree that that way ludicrous. A total 48" move was way too much, especially for an ObSec unit. That needs to go.
But that was a consequence of the game mechanics that hopefully have been fixed in 8th.

Jetbike Troops make sense and (as Charistoph mentioned) there are likely several Fast Attack heavy detachments, so moving them from Troops to Fast Attack would be pointless.
And even if (as I hope) Elite Black Guardian bikes are the only option that can take all weapon uprades, leaving Troop Windriders at 1 per 3, we already know there is a detachment with tons of Elites available.
So players who want to spam Scatterbikes still will be able to.

I really like the idea of making some of the Eldar weapons have a shorter range, but give the models themselves very fast movement.
Eldar Infantry are likely M7" or higher, meaning it is reasonable to think that Jetbikes could be up to M18".
By making Shuricannons also 18" range, the total effective range for them is the same as now (36") while 24" Scatter lasers would be about 6" less effective range than now.
But it means the model has to get closer and hopefully with no JSJ, that will make them easier targets for short ranged weapon and assaults.

-

I have the sinking feeling I'm going to still want these things to die in a fire in 8th. I don't think any of these nerfs are happening except maybe turbo boost. Rage mode = on for 8th. I won't know how much rage until I see the stats for a Rhino.

 Galef wrote:

Jetbike Troops make sense and (as Charistoph mentioned) there are likely several Fast Attack heavy detachments, so moving them from Troops to Fast Attack would be pointless.

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that the Fast Attack heavy detachments will come at an opportunity cost - probably receiving less Command Points than Troops-primary detachments. So, if Windriders aren't shifted to Fast Attack, then it would yet again be a case of Eldar players getting to have their cake and eat it too.

Also, let's remember that scatter lasers aren't the only option Windriders get for their upgrades. Even if scatter lasers are nerfed in the new rules, I think it's reasonable to expect that shuricannons will get -AP -1, and shuriken weapons will probably retain Bladestorm in some form or another in order to differentiate Eldar weaponry from everyone else's. Plus, I think it highly unlikely GW will go back on allowing all members of the squad to upgrade when the kit has enough upgrades for every member of the squad. Finally, even non-upgraded Windriders are going to be packing 4 shots now with the upcoming change to twin-linked weapons. Even if they are pried stratospherically high, Eldar players would still be saving a considerable opportunity cost by being able to take them as compulsory Troops choices in Troops-primary detachments that, presumably, yield the most Command Points, saving their Fast Attack slots for things like Warp Spiders.

So, with all that in mind, Windriders as Troops are apt to remain broken. There is no compelling case for them to remain Troops. The only reason they were shifted from Fast Attack to Troops in the first place was as a nod to Saim Hann players who bought their models in accordance with 3rd ed's Codex: Craftworld Eldar. The mechanic for supporting such armies now is to have detachments focusing on the appropriate unit type. It looks strongly like 8th ed is going to include an opportunity cost for fielding such detachments. So, the appropriate place for Wind Riders to go is Fast Attack. You can be sure if that doesn't happen, GW is going to be hearing about it from displeased customers in an awful hurry.

Well with the release of numarines, stats for krak grenades! (S6, AP-1, Dd3). With those stats it is not farfetched to assume most S6-8 weapons getting D3 damage!

So scatterlasser might be S6, AP-, Dd3!!!

 Galef wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

^^^This guy gets it.

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.

...not really. IG can take gobs of heavy weapons on each Troops FoC slot, up to 21, not counting transports (which raises this to a potential of 45 heavy weapons) or special weapons. Meanwhile Necrons dont have access to Heavy Weapons at all in Troops.

The issue wasn't just the heavy weapons, it was the volume of heavy weapons being wayyyy too effective against literally anything that wasnt AV13 or better, at low cost, excellent range, good survivability, and absolutely unmatched mobility.

But Scatter laser spam in 7th was effective for several reasons: range, speed of the platform, and stripping HPs.

We can't ignore their effectiveness againdt infantry. HP's were not the only thing wrong with scatter laser jetbike. Being able to kill 7-8 marines or 22 Orks, reliably, from across the board, with a Troops unit costing only a couple upgrades more than a kitted Tac squad, was an issue, a big one.

While the Scatterlaser will be less effective against some targets, particularly vehicles, it will remain exceedingly powerful against infantry, and unless there are other changes, will remain just as mobile, long ranged, and resilient, meaning that unless they become notably more expensive, they're likely to still be something an issue. Perhaps not as big of one, but enough that they will still be a concern.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

So there you have it. I think that the reduced effectiveness of poor AP, single wound weapons against vehicles means that scatter bikes won't actually need restricting at all. The rules changes means they are roughly 6 times less effective at killing medium armour than they were in 7th. My guess is that they won't be much use for shooting at anything heavier than buggies and speeders.

^^^This guy gets it.

Scatterbikes were OP in 7th because of their effectiveness. One can argue all day that Troops should not have access to so many weapon options, but really that's an Imperium point of view.

...not really. IG can take gobs of heavy weapons on each Troops FoC slot, up to 21, not counting transports (which raises this to a potential of 45 heavy weapons) or special weapons. Meanwhile Necrons dont have access to Heavy Weapons at all in Troops.

The issue wasn't just the heavy weapons, it was the volume of heavy weapons being wayyyy too effective against literally anything that wasnt AV13 or better, at low cost, excellent range, good survivability, and absolutely unmatched mobility.

But Scatter laser spam in 7th was effective for several reasons: range, speed of the platform, and stripping HPs.

We can't ignore their effectiveness againdt infantry. HP's were not the only thing wrong with scatter laser jetbike. Being able to kill 7-8 marines or 22 Orks, reliably, from across the board, with a Troops unit costing only a couple upgrades more than a kitted Tac squad, was an issue, a big one.

While the Scatterlaser will be less effective against some targets, particularly vehicles, it will remain exceedingly powerful against infantry, and unless there are other changes, will remain just as mobile, long ranged, and resilient, meaning that unless they become notably more expensive, they're likely to still be something an issue. Perhaps not as big of one, but enough that they will still be a concern.

7-8 marines over the course of a game sure, but you are looking at 12 shots, 7.92 hits, 6.57 wounds, after armor saves 2.17 downed marines.

the real issue was then stripping out hull points on expensive vehicles. units and being able to get to any armor facing they wanted and then jumping behind LOS cover once done from halfway across the field.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

7-8 marines over the course of a game sure, but you are looking at 12 shots, 7.92 hits, 6.57 wounds, after armor saves 2.17 downed marines.

the real issue was then stripping out hull points on expensive vehicles. units and being able to get to any armor facing they wanted and then jumping behind LOS cover once done from halfway across the field.

100% agree. If it takes 3 Scatterbikes to take out only 2 marines a turn, you can hardly say their damage output was the problem. .
Now that they are likely only hitting on 4+ and wounding on 3+, their damage output is almost halved.

It was the speed and ability to hide that made them a problem
Taking away the JSJ, ridiculous Turbo-boost and making Scatter lasers only 24" range (as Martel suggests) would instantly make them a balanced choice. Further giving them only a 4+ armour is just icing on the cake.

-

 Vaktathi wrote:
...not really. IG can take gobs of heavy weapons on each Troops FoC slot, up to 21, not counting transports (which raises this to a potential of 45 heavy weapons) or special weapons.

And its unknown if that will happening in the new edition. We may see Heavy Weapon Squads being collated in to Heavy Weapon Platoons again, while the only Heavy Weapon Teams in Troops will be in Infantry Squads.

I honestly don't know how they are going to run Platoons with the current datasheet setup or the new one. It will be interesting to see.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Meanwhile Necrons dont have access to Heavy Weapons at all in Troops.

Technically not needed due to the existence of Gauss and Tesla. Now if they actually worked better than advertised.

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

50 pts a model and I'm good.

We don't have any idea how points actually work in 8th. 50 points might be the new basic unarmed guardsman price for all the information we have on the matter.
Personally I'd rather see the Wraithknight hit by the nerf bat or the cease to exist bat but seeing the scatt bikes less useful against the Average Marine makes me happy.

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
So....Twin-linked is double shots....so Windriders even without an upgrade are likely to have 4 shots each.....that can wound any target.
If those shots end up being AP -1 (which I think is likely) and Windriders have a Move stat more than 12" (again, likely) then even un-upgraded Windriders are a decent unit.

Good times.

50 pts a model and I'm good.

We don't have any idea how points actually work in 8th. 50 points might be the new basic unarmed guardsman price for all the information we have on the matter.
Personally I'd rather see the Wraithknight hit by the nerf bat or the cease to exist bat but seeing the scatt bikes less useful against the Average Marine makes me happy.

Actually, we know a tactical marine is 13pts.
Point costs will therefore be somewhat similar (so when GW talks about 2K games that take 2h, it should be close to current 2K games in terms of number of models).

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
We don't have any idea how points actually work in 8th. 50 points might be the new basic unarmed guardsman price for all the information we have on the matter.
Personally I'd rather see the Wraithknight hit by the nerf bat or the cease to exist bat but seeing the scatt bikes less useful against the Average Marine makes me happy.

Riiiiiiiight. GW sure is going to be stupid enough to make IG trooper almost 4x price of tac marine or alternatively make IG troopers almost 4x worth space marine?

Sheesh. Sure. And shotguns might shoot S10 AP-6 3d6 damage bolts for all we know!

 Galef wrote:
whether Jink exists in 8th or if moving fast (Advancing) grants a +1 armour similar to how turbo-boosting granted cover bonuses in prior editions, this would FINALLY be a good representation of how "Eldar rely on speed for durability"
-

Jink, or something similar is quite likely to go from being a universal ability for bikes to being a rule applied to specific units (Ravenwing bikers, but not ordinary marine bikes, for example. or Saim-Hann jetbikes but not those of other craftworlds).

Tautastic wrote:
Well with the release of numarines, stats for krak grenades! (S6, AP-1, Dd3). With those stats it is not farfetched to assume most S6-8 weapons getting D3 damage!

So scatterlasser might be S6, AP-, Dd3!!!

Extremely unlikely. A Lascannon (the Imperium's standard anti-tank weapon) only does D3 damage, I cannot see a rapid-fire anti-infantry weapon doing the same amount of damage per hit as that. We know heavy bolters do 1 damage and I expect most anti-infantry weapons will be the same. We may get some oddball cases of multiple damage on low strength weapons but I doubt anything smaller than a krak grenad/missile will be doing multiple damage in general. Remember krak grenades are specifically designed to give infantry a means to damage tanks.

 Karhedron wrote:

Tautastic wrote:
Well with the release of numarines, stats for krak grenades! (S6, AP-1, Dd3). With those stats it is not farfetched to assume most S6-8 weapons getting D3 damage!

So scatterlasser might be S6, AP-, Dd3!!!

Extremely unlikely. A Lascannon (the Imperium's standard anti-tank weapon) only does D3 damage, I cannot see a rapid-fire anti-infantry weapon doing the same amount of damage per hit as that. We know heavy bolters do 1 damage and I expect most anti-infantry weapons will be the same. We may get some oddball cases of multiple damage on low strength weapons but I doubt anything smaller than a krak grenad/missile will be doing multiple damage in general. Remember krak grenades are specifically designed to give infantry a means to damage tanks.

d6. And the tau missile pod is also d3 and that was in 7th ed S7 medium vehicle killer.

Though yeah unlikely. And doubtful they would go for d2 either.

I highly doubt Scatter lasers will be any more than Damage:1
What is more likely is that GW delves into the past and makes Scatter lasers D6 shots again like it was around Rogue Trader, although that would be odd considering this is the treatment for Blasts

That would make Scatterbikes even less likely to cause mass damage as the average number of shots from 3 bikes would only be 10. I could only see this happen if the Scatter laser becomes assault.


Slight topic change: with the T'au Faction focus, we know a keyword that Crisis suits have is "Fly" which allows them to still shoot as normal after falling back from melee.
I hate to say it, but I am almost positive Windriders, probably all Aeldari jetbikes, will have this keyword rule, essentially giving them a better version of 7E Hit & Run.
While this is fluffy, I cannot help fear what this does (and should do) to their points cost.

-

 Galef wrote:
I highly doubt Scatter lasers will be any more than Damage:1
What is more likely is that GW delves into the past and makes Scatter lasers D6 shots again like it was around Rogue Trader, although that would be odd considering this is the treatment for Blasts

That would make Scatterbikes even less likely to cause mass damage as the average number of shots from 3 bikes would only be 10. I could only see this happen if the Scatter laser becomes assault.


Slight topic change: with the T'au Faction focus, we know a keyword that Crisis suits have is "Fly" which allows them to still shoot as normal after falling back from melee.
I hate to say it, but I am almost positive Windriders, probably all Aeldari jetbikes, will have this keyword rule, essentially giving them a better version of 7E Hit & Run.
While this is fluffy, I cannot help fear what this does (and should do) to their points cost.

-

It would make sense if the fly keyword was granted to every jetbike, skimmer, jetpack and jump infantry, and give them the ability to move over difficult/impassable terrain without penalties (maybe with a dangerous terrain test when starting/ending in difficult like in 7th).
I sure hope the T'au faction focus post was poorly written, and that the crisis' ability to fall back without penalty comes from a special ability different than the fly keyword, but it's mostly wishful thinking from my part.

Edit: the sniper drones also have the fly keyword (they were also jetpack in 7th), and there's no mention of them having the buffed H&R.

So the rules leaked.

The good:
-Windriders have only 4+ save...but 2 Wounds. It think this will be ok since SOOOOOO many weapon deal multiple damage and eve AP -1 weapons are a big threat
-20ppm, Shuricannon is +12ppm, Scatter laser is +15
-They 16".....and auto Advance 6"

The 'meh':
-They are Fast Attack now. If the structure for army building was the same as every prior edition, this would have INFURIATED me. However, there is a detachment that allows Fast Attacks to be your 'core' choice and gives command points just like the "traditional" detachment. So it's all good.
-Battle Focus allows models to shoot as if stationary, even if they Advanced (except with Heavy Weapons). So there is no reason for Windriders with Shuriken weapons to nor move a full 22" and shoot to full capacity.
I put this in the 'meh' category because it is both good and bad. There really is no reason to take Scatter lasers anymore. Shuricannon Bikes have about they same threat range, but will hurt more because of the AP -3 on 6s.

-

So... ShuriCanBikes might be the new hotness, but still not as OP as Scatbikes?

I can live with that.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
So... ShuriCanBikes might be the new hotness, but still not as OP as Scatbikes?

I can live with that.

I can too. I never liked having to take Scatter lasers. What is nice is that you may not even need to use Shuricannons.
Twin Catapults give you 4 shots and still wound up to T7 on a 5+, and now have a 34" threat range.
Since Shuricannons now only wound T4 on 3+, that's not much of a difference. Certainly not a 12ppm difference

The only advantage I can see in taking the Shuricannon is wounding T8+ on 5+ (instead of 6) and the extra range allowing the bike to stay out of range (since their JSJ is gone)

-