Robin5t wrote: So, if something enters base contact with the Swarmlord it basically ceases to exist, right?
I mean, wow. He'll be chewing through tanks like butter.
As it should be. I have no problems with the Swarmlord being the most powerfull meele thing in all of 40k. Even more than Knights or small Titans. He is like the Ultra-Primarch Tyranid equivalent.
Looks pretty good. I'm not a fan of Synapse making you immune to Morale though. I thought the whole point of the new system was that nobody was immune to it. In fact, I seem to recall GW saying something to that effect when 8th was first revealed.
That's one scary mofo indeed lol.
Genestealers look like they can pull of T1 charges pretty handily too.
8 move, can charge after advancing, so 16 and then using the swarmlord ability to squeeze in another 8 for 24 inch before charging.
Basically nuking whatever they charge.
Slipspace wrote: Looks pretty good. I'm not a fan of Synapse making you immune to Morale though. I thought the whole point of the new system was that nobody was immune to it. In fact, I seem to recall GW saying something to that effect when 8th was first revealed.
Tyranids have no free will so they can't run away. At least not when in synapse.
Hive Commander is mean! (Basically what the Onslaught psychic power should have been all along)
Genestealers run + charge is nasty
5+ invulnerable save (That's not really as big a deal anymore because AP of standard weapons wouldn't bypass their armour anymore)
More attacks for 10+, + 1 to hit with a Brood lord (eesh!)
Slipspace wrote: Looks pretty good. I'm not a fan of Synapse making you immune to Morale though. I thought the whole point of the new system was that nobody was immune to it. In fact, I seem to recall GW saying something to that effect when 8th was first revealed.
They are not completely immune, without synapse they become very vulnerable to morale.
And they also said that there will be few exceptions, Tyranids in synapse are one of those.
Slipspace wrote: Looks pretty good. I'm not a fan of Synapse making you immune to Morale though. I thought the whole point of the new system was that nobody was immune to it. In fact, I seem to recall GW saying something to that effect when 8th was first revealed.
Tyranids have no free will so they can't run away. At least not when in synapse.
And their LD will be trash on the little guys meaning that once synapse is removed so they'll then be devastated in short order (Like in the lore, no synapse= dead Tyranids)
Anyone who played AoS knew their would be situations where you could ignore morale. The being fearless in synapse range isn't really the buff though, not having instinctive behavior outside of synapse is the buff. The strategy to dealing with tyranid swarms remains the same, geek the synapse creatures, then inflict massive damage thru shooting which you get to nearly double thanks to morale.
Honestly, synapse granting Fearless is entirely reasonable.
I'm more worried about the 'nids sheer speed combined with how they are utter blenders in melee. Appropriate for the faction of course, but they are going to be difficult to address since they are traits that pretty much hard-counter an IG gunline (by getting there before it can shoot, and decimating it before it can fall back).
Flamethrowers will help by providing good overwatch of course. Getting first turn will also help a lot, since that might give me a chance to snipe out the Swarmlord with AT and remove all his buffs before the 'nid player can use them.
What's going to be really difficult is planning for scenarios where I've got second turn vs nids, since that will limit my ability to preemptively snipe problem units, and I won't be able to deploy my screening units as far forward so I'll have less room for falling back. Though I guess if I have a list that can be flexible about reserves, maybe I could just reserve and outflank a bunch of stuff when I get second turn.
Eh, I'm not seeing much reason take Hormagaunts over Stealers, except maybe as screening (of course, if the game doesn't do "intervening models" cover, that's out).
Genestealers look primed to take on most anything and everything. Even if they wound T8+ on 6s, that still triggers Rend. Combined with 4 attacks a pop in large units, and it could well be reasonable to see them attritioning down Knights by themselves.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, synapse granting Fearless is entirely reasonable.
I'm more worried about the 'nids sheer speed combined with how they are utter blenders in melee. Appropriate for the faction of course, but they are going to be difficult to address since they are traits that pretty much hard-counter an IG gunline (by getting there before it can shoot, and decimating it before it can fall back).
Flamethrowers will help by providing good overwatch of course. Getting first turn will also help a lot, since that might give me a chance to snipe out the Swarmlord with AT and remove all his buffs before the 'nid player can use them.
What's going to be really difficult is planning for scenarios where I've got second turn vs nids, since that will limit my ability to preemptively snipe problem units, and I won't be able to deploy my screening units as far forward so I'll have less room for falling back. Though I guess if I have a list that can be flexible about reserves, maybe I could just reserve and outflank a bunch of stuff when I get second turn.
Maybe this is an excuse to use Bullgryns and Ogryns at last?
MagicJuggler wrote: Eh, I'm not seeing much reason take Hormagaunts over Stealers, except maybe as screening (of course, if the game doesn't do "intervening models" cover, that's out).
Genestealers look primed to take on most anything and everything. Even if they wound T8+ on 6s, that still triggers Rend. Combined with 4 attacks a pop in large units, and it could well be reasonable to see them attritioning down Knights by themselves.
Weird.
Why you take Chaos Marauders insteand of Chaos Warriors in Fantasy? Because they are cheap cannon fodder. Is obvious that a elite unit is gonna be much better than a basic-horde unit. If they are properly balanced they will have both their place.
MagicJuggler wrote: Eh, I'm not seeing much reason take Hormagaunts over Stealers, except maybe as screening (of course, if the game doesn't do "intervening models" cover, that's out).
Genestealers look primed to take on most anything and everything. Even if they wound T8+ on 6s, that still triggers Rend. Combined with 4 attacks a pop in large units, and it could well be reasonable to see them attritioning down Knights by themselves.
Weird.
Hormagaunts are probably far cheaper and have more attacks per cost, making them better at killing light infantry.
They didn't really say anything about their ranged weapons. Given how much better they became in close combat, is it unreasonable to assume we'll see a nerf to their shooting?
Also, given now that we've seen synapse mechanics, how will ATSKNF work? (I've been out all of 7th, so excuse me if ATSKNF isn't a thing anymore)
This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have.
I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
Galef wrote: This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have.
I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
They have said about Tyrant Guard catching wounds for the Tyrants so I'll assume that yes, they are gonna be targeteable. So even more reasons to bring Tyrant guard to the table!
Galef wrote: This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have.
I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
They have said about Tyrant Guard catching wounds for the Tyrants so I'll assume that yes, they are gonna be targeteable. So even more reasons to bring Tyrant guard to the table!
That's a pretty hard nerf for Flying Tyrants, especially since "hard to hit' and 'snap shots' are gone (presumably)
J Mac wrote: They didn't really say anything about their ranged weapons. Given how much better they became in close combat, is it unreasonable to assume we'll see a nerf to their shooting?
Also, given now that we've seen synapse mechanics, how will ATSKNF work? (I've been out all of 7th, so excuse me if ATSKNF isn't a thing anymore)
Marine focus next apparently - I think it will just be Leadership is not modifed by losses.
Galef wrote: This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have.
I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
I think they will have 11. It would be really stupid to have such a big model being able to hide behind Rippers etc. Gulliman is still max Warboss size (at least in fluff) so it makes sense for him to be screened by SM or PSM (9 wounds or not).
MagicJuggler wrote: Eh, I'm not seeing much reason take Hormagaunts over Stealers, except maybe as screening (of course, if the game doesn't do "intervening models" cover, that's out).
Genestealers look primed to take on most anything and everything. Even if they wound T8+ on 6s, that still triggers Rend. Combined with 4 attacks a pop in large units, and it could well be reasonable to see them attritioning down Knights by themselves.
Weird.
Hormagaunts are probably far cheaper and have more attacks per cost, making them better at killing light infantry.
Bolters wound Hormagaunts on 3+ while Scatter Lasers wound them on 2s. Wounding Genestealers on 2+ requires S8, which is generally needed for AT anyway. Thus Genestealers are roughly of the same defense class and thus help your army have a universal defensive value (harder for your foe to have 100% weapons).
Anything can kill infantry but not everything kills tanks effectively. Spreading AT throughout your army rather than focusing it in a few linchpin units protects your army from being out-rocked the moment someone goes Armored Company on you.
Galef wrote: This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have. I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
They have said about Tyrant Guard catching wounds for the Tyrants so I'll assume that yes, they are gonna be targeteable. So even more reasons to bring Tyrant guard to the table!
That's a pretty hard nerf for Flying Tyrants, especially since "hard to hit' and 'snap shots' are gone (presumably)
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IIRC they said that it will be replaced by a modifier to the roll to hit.
Galef wrote: This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have.
I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
They have said about Tyrant Guard catching wounds for the Tyrants so I'll assume that yes, they are gonna be targeteable. So even more reasons to bring Tyrant guard to the table!
That's a pretty hard nerf for Flying Tyrants, especially since "hard to hit' and 'snap shots' are gone (presumably)
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IIRC they said that it will be replaced by a modifier to the roll to hit.
A Flyrant could always take a Tyrant Giuard unit, it was just pointless as TG are a bad unit outside of being relatively tough for their size. Flyrant with TG just couldn't Swoop or move more than 8"
Galef wrote: This makes me wonder if Orks will get Fearless at a certain unit size like they used to have.
I am really hoping that Daemons just have regular Morale, but very high LD. The 8E Morale system is very much like Instability, so no "fearless' workaround is needed for them.
Swarmlord having 12 Wounds is interesting. It makes me wonder if regular Tyrants will also have 11/12 so they can be targeted.
They have said about Tyrant Guard catching wounds for the Tyrants so I'll assume that yes, they are gonna be targeteable. So even more reasons to bring Tyrant guard to the table!
That's a pretty hard nerf for Flying Tyrants, especially since "hard to hit' and 'snap shots' are gone (presumably)
-
IIRC they said that it will be replaced by a modifier to the roll to hit.
A Flyrant could always take a Tyrant Giuard unit, it was just pointless as TG are a bad unit outside of being relatively tough for their size. Flyrant with TG just couldn't Swoop or move more than 8"
Or ya could be real nasty and take multiple tyrant guard/hive guard (what they called out in regards to command squads for nids) and swoop between them.
We don't know how wings will affect tyrants/princes etc. They might not even get the fly mechanic that tau have been shown to ahve, though I suspect they will. Doubt that will be all they do though. They'd have to be significantly cheaper to warrant paying for them if that's all they did. Hell, I'm not even sure they would benefit a tyrant geared for melee at all. Wings could still be good.
that said, the lowish toughness for hive tyrants is a bit dissappointing, I'd hoped they'd be above 6. but we'll have to see, I THINK Hiove Tyrants should be in a decent place now
Well, I have 2 problems with the article. 1) I wish synapse didn't make them immune to moral. There are other ways they could have done it. Like cut losses in half for the purpose of moral. So you would need to kill 10 to get a d6+5 -ld.
2) I am terrified Instinctive Behavior will still ruin the army. Right now it shackles nid models to synapse. Bad leadership hasn't been enough of a punishment to counter synapse in the past. You cannot deepstrike a nonsynapse unless you ALSO deepstrike a synapse to maintain control over them. You can't break off some gargoyles to go grab an objective unless you ALSO break off a synapse to support them. It forces you to move the whole army as a blob except for the very few units who don't have IB.
1 bad thing (bad ld) is enough. 2 bad things is overkill.
BrianDavion wrote: are we sure instinctive behavior will even EXIST in 8th?
No. But they didn't mention it one way or the other. If it was dead they could have said so with a single sentence.
doesn't mean they would have, I could see instinctive behavior being gone simply because it's kind of a annoying thing anyway. I could also see it IB being kept simple like "melee instinctve behavior MUST charge the closest enemy unit, ranged must shoot at the closest enemy unit" which normally not that big a deal, but you could see a squad of termagaunts wasting firepower on a terminator squad
BrianDavion wrote: are we sure instinctive behavior will even EXIST in 8th?
I think it will go, Morale rules are punishing enough for hordes and Nids will have low Ld (maybe as low as 3 or 4) and be decimated by Break tests. I think GW realised IB was just crippling in the modern game, and synapse way too easy to destroy
BrianDavion wrote: are we sure instinctive behavior will even EXIST in 8th?
No. But they didn't mention it one way or the other. If it was dead they could have said so with a single sentence.
doesn't mean they would have, I could see instinctive behavior being gone simply because it's kind of a annoying thing anyway. I could also see it IB being kept simple like "melee instinctve behavior MUST charge the closest enemy unit, ranged must shoot at the closest enemy unit" which normally not that big a deal, but you could see a squad of termagaunts wasting firepower on a terminator squad
It doesn't matter WHAT IB is if the form it takes takes control away from your army. The moment I cannot disengage those gargs to grab that objective without risking them flying off in some random direction because I don't have a SECOND unit there to support them all the Deepstrike, faster movement, improved anything won't make any difference. Non-IB units will inherently be the best just like they are now, and any IB units you bring will be moved as one giant blob or you will risk being the only army in the game who cannot control your own units.
I hope IB goes away. It seems like they are doing a good job and it might go away. But them not mentioning it at all is worrying.
Something as simply as IB allows the units affected by it to ignore their casualties when checking for morale checks should be enough to make a difference.
This may allow nids Hordes to wether the enemy firepower with less casualties while still allowing the owner full control of his units.
Lord Perversor wrote: Something as simply as IB allows the units affected by it to ignore their casualties when checking for morale checks should be enough to make a difference.
This may allow nids Hordes to wether the enemy firepower with less casualties while still allowing the owner full control of his units.
thats a buff, IB is useally a nerf for not being in range of a synapse. I tend to agree simply not being ion range of synapse is all that should be needed. barring that IB's disadvantage should be minor eneugh that it's stream lined. and realitivly easy to figure out. I think giving 'nids a low leadership instead so that putting them in range of a synapse bubble is simply a good way to avoid your squads melting when they take fire seems smart.
So hyped! Swarmlord seems excellent. I love that the Tyranids will be able to deal with large armored threats like Knights and Vehicles in close combat - as it should be! Swarmlord is speedy - love it. Hormagaunts at move 8 is fine (was hoping for 10). I'm looking forward to flooding the board with Gaunts and Gants. Synapse is a dream come true. Our morale will probably be abysmal, but that's perfectly fine! I hope we melt due to Morale once our synapse is gone. Thats very fluffy.
I expect most Foot Slogging nids to be 8" with a rare lumbering things maybe moving down to 6" (exocrine). Gargoyles, Ravenors, and Shrieks will probably be 10-12"
I'm expecting Shrikes to be gone. They technically don't have a model - only an upgrade pack for the warriors (which is not being sold on the Forgeworld website any longer).
It's possible, but there have been reliable rumors for awhile now that nids were going to be getting some new kits and it's not like GW doesn't make Space Marine upgrade packs.
I wouldn't be overly shocked if they made a plastic Shriek upgrade pack for warriors.
First box I expect to be Deathgaurd VS Primarines.
Second box will probably be BA vs Nids. When that happens we should see some kits release. Hopefully that rumored Vore box that makes a new biovore/pyrovore/psyker vore.
What I REALLY want, but doubt I will get, is for the Prime to be able to be upgraded into a shriek prime or ravener prime with a dedicated prime kit. Something that looks distinct from warriors with a optional pair of wings and optional tail legs.
BrianDavion wrote: are we sure instinctive behavior will even EXIST in 8th?
No. But they didn't mention it one way or the other. If it was dead they could have said so with a single sentence.
doesn't mean they would have, I could see instinctive behavior being gone simply because it's kind of a annoying thing anyway. I could also see it IB being kept simple like "melee instinctve behavior MUST charge the closest enemy unit, ranged must shoot at the closest enemy unit" which normally not that big a deal, but you could see a squad of termagaunts wasting firepower on a terminator squad
It doesn't matter WHAT IB is if the form it takes takes control away from your army. The moment I cannot disengage those gargs to grab that objective without risking them flying off in some random direction because I don't have a SECOND unit there to support them all the Deepstrike, faster movement, improved anything won't make any difference. Non-IB units will inherently be the best just like they are now, and any IB units you bring will be moved as one giant blob or you will risk being the only army in the game who cannot control your own units.
I hope IB goes away. It seems like they are doing a good job and it might go away. But them not mentioning it at all is worrying.
I don't see IB going away. Its been a big fundamental part of their fluff for years, and a pretty cool part IMO. I do see GW changing how it fundamentally works. I assume they wouldn't get the immunity to moral checks if outside of synapse. That's a big deal not to have that as the morale phase is brutal now! What is the typical Ld of a genestealer or gaunt? Outside synapse, having only lost a few models in a unit could mean losing up to several more models! That is a huge deal and is a large enough of a nerf. IB doesn't have to be a nerf anymore. Practically everything else in Newhammer has been buffed so that the game balances, why not buff IB also?
It makes sense to reward the player for playing towards the fluff, that is where I see IB going.
I don't see IB going away. Its been a big fundamental part of their fluff for years, and a pretty cool part IMO. I do see GW changing how it fundamentally works. I assume they wouldn't get the immunity to moral checks if outside of synapse. That's a big deal not to have that as the morale phase is brutal now! What is the typical Ld of a genestealer or gaunt? Outside synapse, having only lost a few models in a unit could mean losing up to several more models! That is a huge deal and is a large enough of a nerf. IB doesn't have to be a nerf anymore. Practically everything else in Newhammer has been buffed so that the game balances, why not buff IB also?
It makes sense to reward the player for playing towards the fluff, that is where I see IB going.
There is a thing called emergent gameplay. It's what happens when the mechanics nudge players into a certain direction. Most players of 40k would call the results of emergent game play "The Meta". It doesn't matter how many rules they write for melee in 7th, the emergent game play turns people away from it because of it's many disadvantages.
You don't need to write a heavy handed rule called "Instinctive Behavior" to get players to play according to fluff. No other army has a rule hard wired into their core rules that forces them to behave a certain way. Something especially damaging to a game about making tactical decisions.
You don't need IB to keep nid players wanting to keep their hordes in synapse. Having a 6 average leadership across all those units already does that. Wanting to maintain synapse is already part of the emergent gameplay from the mechanics of synapse, leadership, and moral. You don't need another rule to force it.
buffing IB would be absolutely pants on head stupid.
IB isn't supposed to be some sort of advantage, it's supposed to be a WEAKNESS of the Tyranid army.
one idea I could see is the following special rule:
Instinctive Behavior: the Unit cannot benifit from Stratagems if not within synapse range.
it makes sense (if you're not in synapse range you're not doing clever strageties) and doesn't overly penalize 'nid players with "you have to do this" if you're not in synapse range
IB isn't supposed to be some sort of advantage, it's supposed to be a WEAKNESS of the Tyranid army.
one idea I could see is the following special rule:
Instinctive Behavior: the Unit cannot benefit from Stratagems if not within synapse range.
it makes sense (if you're not in synapse range you're not doing clever strategies) and doesn't overly penalize 'nid players with "you have to do this" if you're not in synapse range
That (to me), coupled with morale being a without synapse would be perfect
IB isn't supposed to be some sort of advantage, it's supposed to be a WEAKNESS of the Tyranid army.
one idea I could see is the following special rule:
Instinctive Behavior: the Unit cannot benefit from Stratagems if not within synapse range.
it makes sense (if you're not in synapse range you're not doing clever strategies) and doesn't overly penalize 'nid players with "you have to do this" if you're not in synapse range
That (to me), coupled with morale being a without synapse would be perfect
yeah, and I think combined it'd work nicely, if you read the books Tyranid units generally without synapse are pretty much hitting the enemy dying in droves etc, like a swarm of blood attack dogs, but manangeable, then the syanpse unit shows up and suddenly everything changes because not only are the tyranids acting "like one mind" in regards to ignoring casualityes, but suddenly they're executing, often complex, stratagies.
so IB wouldn't be a HUUUGE problem for Tyranid players, but at the same time Synapse units would be important, and the name of the game with Tyranid units would be using syanpse to support your main pushes/fronts while using non syanpse controlled stuff as cheap fodder along the flanks, with the udnerstanding that you're not gonnado anything partiuclarly effective there.
Lance845 wrote: Well, I have 2 problems with the article. 1) I wish synapse didn't make them immune to moral. There are other ways they could have done it. Like cut losses in half for the purpose of moral. So you would need to kill 10 to get a d6+5 -ld.
2) I am terrified Instinctive Behavior will still ruin the army. Right now it shackles nid models to synapse. Bad leadership hasn't been enough of a punishment to counter synapse in the past. You cannot deepstrike a nonsynapse unless you ALSO deepstrike a synapse to maintain control over them. You can't break off some gargoyles to go grab an objective unless you ALSO break off a synapse to support them. It forces you to move the whole army as a blob except for the very few units who don't have IB.
1 bad thing (bad ld) is enough. 2 bad things is overkill.
Fluff wise most non synapse Tyranid units are not supposed to be out of synapse range. So I am ok with that.
Having a low LD and out of Synapse range is all you need to represent IB. A failed Morale test causing half the models to run off the table would be fine for representing the beasties being confused and scared.
Honestly I love the 8E Morale system. I can represent so much. Instinctive Behavior, Daemonic Instability, Mob Rule, or just plain old terrified models fleeing the battle.
SilverAlien wrote: So, does anyone find the idea of usuable pyrovores a bit hard to believe?
yep they were since the day they came out.
I remember buying the new Tyranid codex on release day in 2009 and when i read though it in the GW store i saw this new Pyrovore unit in it. After 5 min of trying to figure out why one should spent 45 points on it i said to my self "man this is crappy unit."
So the balancing of the Pyrovore would be a good indicator to see if they really balanced all units.
This is the first faction focus that's been 100% positive to me. The first one where it seems like the developers actually GET what the design problems were with the codex. Get hype!
18'' charges lads. And it's not just gaunts and genestealers. Hive Commander can likely be used on anything, so lictors and ravenors can get it on the fun too.
This is the first faction focus that's been 100% positive to me. The first one where it seems like the developers actually GET what the design problems were with the codex. Get hype!
18'' charges lads. And it's not just gaunts and genestealers. Hive Commander can likely be used on anything, so lictors and ravenors can get it on the fun too.
I attribute this to the writer of the article. Reece knows what we want, and he gave us a hell of a taste.
rollawaythestone wrote: I'm expecting Shrikes to be gone. They technically don't have a model - only an upgrade pack for the warriors (which is not being sold on the Forgeworld website any longer).
ross-128 wrote: What's going to be really difficult is planning for scenarios where I've got second turn vs nids, since that will limit my ability to preemptively snipe problem units, and I won't be able to deploy my screening units as far forward so I'll have less room for falling back. Though I guess if I have a list that can be flexible about reserves, maybe I could just reserve and outflank a bunch of stuff when I get second turn.
Well with 6" less between armies most likely(I suspect 18" gap between armies in standard scenarios) you do have 3" more to fall back if that helps
MagicJuggler wrote: Eh, I'm not seeing much reason take Hormagaunts over Stealers, except maybe as screening (of course, if the game doesn't do "intervening models" cover, that's out).
Genestealers look primed to take on most anything and everything. Even if they wound T8+ on 6s, that still triggers Rend. Combined with 4 attacks a pop in large units, and it could well be reasonable to see them attritioning down Knights by themselves.
Weird.
Hormagaunts are probably far cheaper and have more attacks per cost, making them better at killing light infantry.
And since they are cheap you can make cheaply nice congo lines giving you big broods of fearless hormagaunts while synapse is far far far back in safety.
J Mac wrote: They didn't really say anything about their ranged weapons. Given how much better they became in close combat, is it unreasonable to assume we'll see a nerf to their shooting?
Also, given now that we've seen synapse mechanics, how will ATSKNF work? (I've been out all of 7th, so excuse me if ATSKNF isn't a thing anymore)
Marine focus next apparently - I think it will just be Leadership is not modifed by losses.
Eh that would basically be fearless. Can't roll 8 or more to overcome basic LD of 7 without modifiers.
Calm down man, it's just a game of toy soldiers .
It's a bit early to rage that it's OP or anything. I must admit I'm a bit sad it's outright immunity, but it'll most likely be balanced out by the fact that without Synapse most bugs will dissolve from Morale.
ross-128 wrote: Honestly, synapse granting Fearless is entirely reasonable.
I'm more worried about the 'nids sheer speed combined with how they are utter blenders in melee. Appropriate for the faction of course, but they are going to be difficult to address since they are traits that pretty much hard-counter an IG gunline (by getting there before it can shoot, and decimating it before it can fall back).
Flamethrowers will help by providing good overwatch of course. Getting first turn will also help a lot, since that might give me a chance to snipe out the Swarmlord with AT and remove all his buffs before the 'nid player can use them.
What's going to be really difficult is planning for scenarios where I've got second turn vs nids, since that will limit my ability to preemptively snipe problem units, and I won't be able to deploy my screening units as far forward so I'll have less room for falling back. Though I guess if I have a list that can be flexible about reserves, maybe I could just reserve and outflank a bunch of stuff when I get second turn.
Why are you deploying far enough up the table to allow him to first round charge? 16+2D6 inches is 23 average. For every inch farther back you deploy, there's a considerably higher risk for him that he'll blow the charge. Even his Trygon and its burrowing unit will have a tough 9" charge to make to hit you first round.
and Tyranids AREN'T but they, like everyone else are going to use units that can provide bubbles that buff it. you think tyranids are gonna be unique there? commisars and preists for IG will do much the same. meanwhile I expect space Marine Chaplains to provide a similer "Fearless bubble" to space marines. etc. what does this mean? Take snipers and gank those buffers first.
The new Morale phase is simple, and only happens once per player turn, at the end of all your other phases. It will apply to almost every unit, and represents warriors fleeing the battlefield, dying from the psychic feedback shockwaves of their allies, or retreating with injured or fallen brethren. There will be very few units indeed that will not feel its effects.
so we knew there will be exceptions. for example single model units who will not feel the effect.
nordsturmking wrote:so we knew there will be exceptions. for example single model units who will not feel the effect.
Because, apparently, an entire army counts as a exception.
GW!
yet again, we knew there would be units that buffed armies in that regard too. tyranids in synapse range being fearless makes absolute sense. pull your head out of your rectum. chances are EVERY army is gonna have "bubble specialists" to some degree or another. I'd not be too suprised, for example, to see chapalins provide a fearless bubble to marines. assuming that marines are impacted by it at all. we know "know no fear" is a thing.
Reading the article again gave me a thought. It said that genestealers can charge after advancing, which is part of movement. With the Swarmlord can they move+advance in movement, then using Swarmy's ability move+advance in shooting, then assault? If so, 16+4d6 (40" lol) threat range is bananas. Chocolate covered bananas. Deep fried chocolate covered banana Twinkies.
StarHunter25 wrote: Reading the article again gave me a thought. It said that genestealers can charge after advancing, which is part of movement. With the Swarmlord can they move+advance in movement, then using Swarmy's ability move+advance in shooting, then assault? If so, 16+4d6 (40" lol) threat range is bananas. Chocolate covered bananas. Deep fried chocolate covered banana Twinkies.
I don't think they'd be so gleeful about the crazy charge range of 8+8+2D6 if that was the case.
BrianDavion wrote: I'd not be too suprised, for example, to see chapalins provide a fearless bubble to marines. assuming that marines are impacted by it at all. we know "know no fear" is a thing.
I have a feeling this is one of those cases where it's okay for Marines to do it because it's "fluffy" but it can't possibly be okay for any other army in the game no matter the circumstance, even if it is also "fluffy", because it's broken.
"A Tactical Marine costs 13 points" etc., etc...
Anyway I think it all sounds good, it's exactly the kind of thing Tyranids needed to get away from Flyrant spam (almost literally the only viable thing in the existing book). Everything's going to be faster, more durable, and hit like a god damn monster, as it should. I'm assuming there will be some detriment to being out of synapse range to balance out the benefit of being within range, as always. It wouldn't make much sense and would just needlessly punish Tyranid players if they were forced to constantly support the entire army with other units just for it to function at all, and they got nothing in exchange for it. One might even argue that simply ignoring morale isn't enough, but like I said it sounds pretty good so far.
If whatever is providing synapse for that immunity bubble has under 10 wounds it does allow it to hide pretty nicely in horde units which will make the best of it.
Spoiler:
obvious Traditio bait
Nice thing about that is the boost they gave snipers so I think for this sort of reason we're going to see more of those in play again which is pretty cool.
n0t_u wrote: If whatever is providing synapse for that immunity bubble has under 10 wounds it does allow it to hide pretty nicely in horde units which will make the best of it.
#Raeg
Seriously, though, do you think that warriors are going to be characters?
n0t_u wrote: If whatever is providing synapse for that immunity bubble has under 10 wounds it does allow it to hide pretty nicely in horde units which will make the best of it.
Spoiler:
obvious Traditio bait
Nice thing about that is the boost they gave snipers so I think for this sort of reason we're going to see more of those in play again which is pretty cool.
That only applies to characters though, and given that the Swarmlord has 12 wounds, that doesn't leave much.
Hive Tyrants and Swarmlord: 12 wounds, and a Monster
Tervigons: Has 6 in 7th, maybe as much 15 or 18, enough to be a Large Model, and a Monster
Trygon Prime: Definitely more that 12 wounds, and a Monster
Tyranid Warriors and Shrikes: Not Characters
Zoanthropes: Not characters
Maleceptor: Not a character but probably more than 10 wounds and a Monster so no dice
Tyranid Prime: Character and likely 6 or 7 wounds max. This would be the sole Independent Character as well so it works fine for fitting in/
n0t_u wrote: If whatever is providing synapse for that immunity bubble has under 10 wounds it does allow it to hide pretty nicely in horde units which will make the best of it.
#Raeg
Seriously, though, do you think that warriors are going to be characters?
I'm no Tyranid expert, but isn't the Tyranid Prime the only current Independent Character they have? Every other Synapse Option is a unit or Monstrous Creature.
They mentioned in the characters article that Tyrant and Hive Guard are going to be able to soak wounds for tyranid monsters. So any list you see a tyrant in, youy will likely see a unit of guard.
alextroy wrote: I'm no Tyranid expert, but isn't the Tyranid Prime the only current Independent Character they have? Every other Synapse Option is a unit or Monstrous Creature.
After the Parasite of Mortrex was ditched, yes it was the lone model with Independent Character, although the Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard's Shieldwall Rule let it do the same for that unit but it couldn't leave again.
Who knows, maybe the Parasite will return in the new edition.
So except for the Prime, every Synapse unit will be targetable at range. I guess we'll have to fight Tyranids the fluffly way and target their Synapse so that the army falls apart without it.
alextroy wrote: So except for the Prime, every Synapse unit will be targetable at range. I guess we'll have to fight Tyranids the fluffly way and target their Synapse so that the army falls apart without it.
It does sound a good set of rule interactions that fits nicely with the fluff Best of both worlds.
rollawaythestone wrote: I'm expecting Shrikes to be gone. They technically don't have a model - only an upgrade pack for the warriors (which is not being sold on the Forgeworld website any longer).
They can be a new double kit with Raveners.
Actually, I went ahead and sent GW a text over Facebook. Shrikes are going to be grandfathered in. According to them, the conversion kit was relatively recent, so they are in no danger of being discontinued. Getting Rippers directly from GW rather than FW on the other hand...they had no comment. >.>
alextroy wrote: So except for the Prime, every Synapse unit will be targetable at range. I guess we'll have to fight Tyranids the fluffly way and target their Synapse so that the army falls apart without it.
It does sound a good set of rule interactions that fits nicely with the fluff Best of both worlds.
My hope is this. IIRC in 3rd Ed, there was a rule called Shoot the Big Ones! that let you target Synapse even if not the nearest unit. That's been gone from 4th Ed so I'm hoping that this occurs in 8th. I'm also hoping that just like in the fluff, shooting the synapse is a risky proposition if there is a unit of other stuff closer, as you might kill the Synapse and cause the horde to break and tear itself apart, or you might fail and get ripped to pieces. Its also not especially useful against single-model units. For example, killing off the Warriors might save your from multiple large Hormagaunts as they just collapse under the Morale test, but that Carnifex doesn't need to take Break tests and will still bulldoze you.
Note 1: I'm really hoping Carnifexes become good again, the living engine of destruction they are meant to be, and can happily tear apart most units with ease in melee, from Dreadnoughts to Wraithlords. I'd like to see a full Brood of three capable of taking down even Knights and Wraithknights.
Note 2: This will mark the first time that Nids didn't receive updated rules for the edition since 2nd Ed: They have had a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Ed Codex, and will get 8th Ed rules, but no 7th Ed.
alextroy wrote: So except for the Prime, every Synapse unit will be targetable at range. I guess we'll have to fight Tyranids the fluffly way and target their Synapse so that the army falls apart without it.
It does sound a good set of rule interactions that fits nicely with the fluff Best of both worlds.
My hope is this. IIRC in 3rd Ed, there was a rule called Shoot the Big Ones! that let you target Synapse even if not the nearest unit. That's been gone from 4th Ed so I'm hoping that this occurs in 8th. I'm also hoping that just like in the fluff, shooting the synapse is a risky proposition if there is a unit of other stuff closer, as you might kill the Synapse and cause the horde to break and tear itself apart, or you might fail and get ripped to pieces. Its also not especially useful against single-model units. For example, killing off the Warriors might save your from multiple large Hormagaunts as they just collapse under the Morale test, but that Carnifex doesn't need to take Break tests and will still bulldoze you.
Note 1: I'm really hoping Carnifexes become good again, the living engine of destruction they are meant to be, and can happily tear apart most units with ease in melee, from Dreadnoughts to Wraithlords. I'd like to see a full Brood of three capable of taking down even Knights and Wraithknights.
Note 2: This will mark the first time that Nids didn't receive updated rules for the edition since 2nd Ed: They have had a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Ed Codex, and will get 8th Ed rules, but no 7th Ed.
Technically the 6th ed codex was an update in anticipation of 7th. Which is sad that it came out and the Developers didn't fix shadow in the warp from from something which was worthless into something 7th ed ready. It was only...what, 3 months early? They should have held it for a same day release with 7th with updated rules that were current. Instead, we got DLC.
alextroy wrote: So except for the Prime, every Synapse unit will be targetable at range. I guess we'll have to fight Tyranids the fluffly way and target their Synapse so that the army falls apart without it.
It does sound a good set of rule interactions that fits nicely with the fluff Best of both worlds.
My hope is this. IIRC in 3rd Ed, there was a rule called Shoot the Big Ones! that let you target Synapse even if not the nearest unit. That's been gone from 4th Ed so I'm hoping that this occurs in 8th. I'm also hoping that just like in the fluff, shooting the synapse is a risky proposition if there is a unit of other stuff closer, as you might kill the Synapse and cause the horde to break and tear itself apart, or you might fail and get ripped to pieces. Its also not especially useful against single-model units. For example, killing off the Warriors might save your from multiple large Hormagaunts as they just collapse under the Morale test, but that Carnifex doesn't need to take Break tests and will still bulldoze you.
Note 1: I'm really hoping Carnifexes become good again, the living engine of destruction they are meant to be, and can happily tear apart most units with ease in melee, from Dreadnoughts to Wraithlords. I'd like to see a full Brood of three capable of taking down even Knights and Wraithknights.
Note 2: This will mark the first time that Nids didn't receive updated rules for the edition since 2nd Ed: They have had a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th Ed Codex, and will get 8th Ed rules, but no 7th Ed.
Technically the 6th ed codex was an update in anticipation of 7th. Which is sad that it came out and the Developers didn't fix shadow in the warp from from something which was worthless into something 7th ed ready. It was only...what, 3 months early? They should have held it for a same day release with 7th with updated rules that were current. Instead, we got DLC.
It was still a 6th Ed Codex, so technically it was a 6th Ed codex. It may have been an update for 7th but didn't use any of the same design or writing as 7th Ed. So 7th is the only edition Tyranids didn't get a full update.
GodDamUser wrote: lol Traditio is trying to find any reason to be angry with 8th
He just wants his 7th net list to be good still
He doesn't use a net list, he uses a list comprised entirely of assaults, tacs, and devastators.. Why he's raging over Tyranid Morale being something good for once I have no clue.
Guessing he's raging over Tyranid Warriors because then his missile launchers may not be able to instant death them..
I want to be afraid to play against Tyranids again. The last several editions I haven't been bothered at all seeing them on the table because they would either never get to me or my melee stuff was better than thier's. This makes me actually nervous to face them and want an army of my own. This is nothing but a positive.
Warriors were explicitly mentioned in the article as being synapse creatures, and they're not characters - in fact, they're more like Tyranid TEQs. Currently Zoanthropes and Shrikes are the other non-Character, non-MC synapse creatures (and the Forge World Malanthrope, which was an MC at one time but isn't anymore). I'd expect that to remain the same. Most Tyranid brain-bugs actually want to do things other than float lazily around brain-bugging, so they'll come forward into range of your guns. Warriors and Shrikes mostly want to assault, while Zoeys have short-range mind bullets.
It will still be possible to wax most of the synapse anchors, but it'll require some thinking beyond "Ok, top of turn 1 I've scrubbed them all by one-shotting them with missiles and melta squads in pods". And the 'nid player will have to think about their synapse web in list-building - "just spam Flyrants" almost certainly won't be the only viable strategy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StarHunter25 wrote: Based on what synapse does, I'm fully well expecting statlines to be like
Termagant
M6" Ws4+ bs4+ s3 t3 w1 a1 ld3 sv-
Not far off what they look like now. Current version is Ld 5 and Sv 6+, IIRC. I think they'll probably keep the 6+, though.
First was: When the revealed the new morale, they said that few units would not feel the effects of morale, but that needed one gigantic asterisk - namely the entirety of the tyranid army.
Yes, you have to be in synapse, but that's generally pretty easy to accomplish.
I knew that synapse would do something, but outright army-wide immunity seems to go against their initial statement.
To be honest, though, my biggest concern isn't nids so much as space marines. Because if nids get army wide immunity, you know ATSKNF and who knows what else (except mob rule) will do the same.
My second concern was warriors. With terminators and frigging bolter marines (primaris, but still) getting an extra wound, I was shocked that warriors got nothing. I wasn't expecting a miracle, but at least an extra wound would have been nice, and reasonable.
The fact they didn't really has me concerned for nobz, and other multi wound infantry.
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.
If you're refering to the theorised profile, that was BS3. Remember than BS has been reversed and now the lower the number the better. What used to be BS1 is now BS6+, what used to be BS3 is now 4+, and what used to be BS5-10 are now all BS2+
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.
When you say that, do you mean WS/BS 4+? Because higher is worse now, on the new statline. Or do you mean WS/BS 3+?
GodDamUser wrote: lol Traditio is trying to find any reason to be angry with 8th
He just wants his 7th net list to be good still
You mean his net list of 10 man tactical squads with flamers and missile launchers? Oh crap they might not be able to answer the new threat of the bugs all by themselves! THE END IS COMING!!!
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't see any of the gaunts having a ws or bs above 3. They still need to be individually weak enough to incentivize being taken in hordes.
If you're refering to the theorised profile, that was BS3. Remember than BS has been reversed and now the lower the number the better. What used to be BS1 is now BS6+, what used to be BS3 is now 4+, and what used to be BS5-10 are now all BS2+
They have now said that both the Trygon and The Swarmlord are capable of doing D6 wounds on a hit in melee and am wondering if this will be normal for all TMC or is part of the melee weapon traits.
This makes me really hopeful that the Melee-Fex is returning.
Also, with the Tau preview they mentioned fly means that they may disengage and still shoot. What are the chances that different armies have different meanings to Fly? For example, Tyranids may be they can fall back and then charge again instead of shooting.
wizerdree wrote: They have now said that both the Trygon and The Swarmlord are capable of doing D6 wounds on a hit in melee and am wondering if this will be normal for all TMC or is part of the melee weapon traits.
This makes me really hopeful that the Melee-Fex is returning.
Also, with the Tau preview they mentioned fly means that they may disengage and still shoot. What are the chances that different armies have different meanings to Fly? For example, Tyranids may be they can fall back and then charge again instead of shooting.
Fly is a keyword so it'll have the same effect across multiple factions, otherwise you run into issues such as Tau having one version of Fly, and Assaults squads another, and one rule saying "Units with Fly Keyword get X" which is fine for Assault Squads but makes Battlesuits completely gamebreakingly powerful (like, emergency errata broken)
Deadshot wrote: Fly is a keyword so it'll have the same effect across multiple factions, otherwise you run into issues such as Tau having one version of Fly, and Assaults squads another, and one rule saying "Units with Fly Keyword get X" which is fine for Assault Squads but makes Battlesuits completely gamebreakingly powerful (like, emergency errata broken)
Deadshot wrote: Fly is a keyword so it'll have the same effect across multiple factions, otherwise you run into issues such as Tau having one version of Fly, and Assaults squads another, and one rule saying "Units with Fly Keyword get X" which is fine for Assault Squads but makes Battlesuits completely gamebreakingly powerful (like, emergency errata broken)
Hello to world of bespoken rules.
Which solves the problem, but there are always universal special rules. For example, Fly is one of them, its a generic term for flying. Multiple units across different armies will get it, but it will be the same across all factions. This means for example when scenario or special rule X gives units with Fly a free shooting attack, Unit X with fly is fine, Unit Y doesn't become broken because their Special version of FLY gives them double the shots when they fly, so can fire twice out of sequence. That special unit will have a bespoke rule saying that it can disengage from combat in the same manner as fly and make a shooitng attack, but its not fly.
Deadshot wrote: Which solves the problem, but there are always universal special rules. For example, Fly is one of them, its a generic term for flying. Multiple units across different armies will get it, but it will be the same across all factions. This means for example when scenario or special rule X gives units with Fly a free shooting attack, Unit X with fly is fine, Unit Y doesn't become broken because their Special version of FLY gives them double the shots when they fly, so can fire twice out of sequence. That special unit will have a bespoke rule saying that it can disengage from combat in the same manner as fly and make a shooitng attack, but its not fly.
There won't be universal special rules anymore so...
Deadshot wrote: Which solves the problem, but there are always universal special rules. For example, Fly is one of them, its a generic term for flying. Multiple units across different armies will get it, but it will be the same across all factions. This means for example when scenario or special rule X gives units with Fly a free shooting attack, Unit X with fly is fine, Unit Y doesn't become broken because their Special version of FLY gives them double the shots when they fly, so can fire twice out of sequence. That special unit will have a bespoke rule saying that it can disengage from combat in the same manner as fly and make a shooitng attack, but its not fly.
There won't be universal special rules anymore so...
Keywords are universal special rules if they use the same rule across multiple codexes. After all, how can "Fly" give one unit "Hit and Run" but in another codex it gives them +1 movement? It will either have to have the same effect across all armies or have a different name.
Deadshot wrote: Keywords are universal special rules if they use the same rule across multiple codexes. After all, how can "Fly" give one unit "Hit and Run" but in another codex it gives them +1 movement? It will either have to have the same effect across all armies or have a different name.
By having the fly rules in datasheet?
edit:
Q: Is "jink" still a thing in #NewHammer?
A: Remember, Ryan, there are no universal special rules in the new edition. If a unit can do anything that resembled the jink move of old, it will be specifically written on it's datasheet.
Ditto for bulky/very bulky. If there's equilavent that too will be on datasheet.
Don't expect much in terms of USR's. Best you can expect is very common faction specific rule like rubrics had.
Deadshot wrote: Keywords are universal special rules if they use the same rule across multiple codexes. After all, how can "Fly" give one unit "Hit and Run" but in another codex it gives them +1 movement? It will either have to have the same effect across all armies or have a different name.
By having the fly rules in datasheet?
edit:
Q: Is "jink" still a thing in #NewHammer?
A: Remember, Ryan, there are no universal special rules in the new edition. If a unit can do anything that resembled the jink move of old, it will be specifically written on it's datasheet.
Ditto for bulky/very bulky. If there's equilavent that too will be on datasheet.
Don't expect much in terms of USR's. Best you can expect is very common faction specific rule like rubrics had.
Its not about the rule itself; its about other rules interacting with a rule. For example if "Fly" to use an example, gave Tau an ability to fall back from combat on a roll of 6, but gave, say, Gargoyles, an ability to shoot twice on the roll of a 6. Another rule saying "units with fly get to do Fly without rolling" then it would be giving much greater advantage where it wasn't supposed to.
All I'm saying is; consistancy. Why make Fly do this in this codex, and that in that codex, and not just give them different names.
Key words are unit types, not really what 7th ed USRs are.
Fly is the new Jumppack/jetpack/skimmer.
That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.
They could have made it synapse where was...
"Friendly tyranid units within range of a synapse creature use the ld attribute of the nearest synapse creature for all purposes. When a unit in synapse has to make a moral test only count half their casualties rounded up."
That means you need to kill 10 hormagaunts to risk loosing 1 to moral (d6+5-10). It makes Nids very good at moral without removing them from the core game mechanic entirely.
And if you want fluff, it's not them breaking and running because they are scared. It's the Hive Mind choosing to give up on that tactic because it's inefficient.
Ever see Aliens Directors Cut? Aliens are pouring into the hallway, sentry guns blasting. Aliens are dropping left and right. "They must be wall to wall in there". And eventually., with enough losses... they retreat.
Moral for nids in synapse could easily represent stranglers getting caught, or throwing themselves forward to cover the retreat. It's fluffy and it's better for the game.
First was: When the revealed the new morale, they said that few units would not feel the effects of morale, but that needed one gigantic asterisk - namely the entirety of the tyranid army.
Yes, you have to be in synapse, but that's generally pretty easy to accomplish.
I knew that synapse would do something, but outright army-wide immunity seems to go against their initial statement.
To be honest, though, my biggest concern isn't nids so much as space marines. Because if nids get army wide immunity, you know ATSKNF and who knows what else (except mob rule) will do the same.
My second concern was warriors. With terminators and frigging bolter marines (primaris, but still) getting an extra wound, I was shocked that warriors got nothing. I wasn't expecting a miracle, but at least an extra wound would have been nice, and reasonable.
The fact they didn't really has me concerned for nobz, and other multi wound infantry.
they DID say that certain units would provide mitigation factors for morale.
also warriors have 3 wounds, and without ID they're not exactly gonna be easy to put down. I mean they're gonna need heavy weapons. with ID being removed warriors are gonna be a LOT tougher. Reece specificly says they're more powerful
Keywords are now used for targeting for powers or effects. For example synapse will check for the keyword "tyranid" during morale phase. Or to see if something is able to be buffed it will check for the key word for that particular faction or unit type.
Don't think of keywords is rules. Think of them as triggers or checks for powers or abilities
Lance845 wrote: Key words are unit types, not really what 7th ed USRs are.
Fly is the new Jumppack/jetpack/skimmer.
That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.
They could have made it synapse where was...
"Friendly tyranid units within range of a synapse creature use the ld attribute of the nearest synapse creature for all purposes. When a unit in synapse has to make a moral test only count half their casualties rounded up."
That means you need to kill 10 hormagaunts to risk loosing 1 to moral (d6+5-10). It makes Nids very good at moral without removing them from the core game mechanic entirely.
And if you want fluff, it's not them breaking and running because they are scared. It's the Hive Mind choosing to give up on that tactic because it's inefficient.
Ever see Aliens Directors Cut? Aliens are pouring into the hallway, sentry guns blasting. Aliens are dropping left and right. "They must be wall to wall in there". And eventually., with enough losses... they retreat.
Moral for nids in synapse could easily represent stranglers getting caught, or throwing themselves forward to cover the retreat. It's fluffy and it's better for the game.
Xenomorphs don't have a dominating Hive Mind which surpresses all survival instincts. Xenomorphs are also reliant on hosts for breed where the Tyranids can simply send in rippers to clean up the dead and reconstitute them, so there is only minimal loss from the odd gaunt who is now floating around as vapourised Tyranid. Also, if you've seen that movie scene you'll also know that those guns were pretty much out of ammo after that, and the Xenomorphs a lot less numerous that Nids. One of the Nids tactics is "Spawn termagants, march forward, soak up bullets, rinse and repeat, send in the proper stuff when they have no more bullets left."
The Hive Mind is in total control of the situation, as long as there is synapse, there is no individual and they are totally under the control. Individual gaunts don't run off because their buddies got killed. Even outside of IB, Hormagaunts will just keep attacking with no regard for anything else, even casualties. The Hive Mind wants them to stay they stay, regardless of what's happening. That is more fluffy, and also better for the game as it forces you to target synapse first or wipe out a brood entirely (or enough to be non-threatening). Plus, with universal Split Fire its easy enough to have your 3 Lascannons aim for the Tyrant and the 1 Heavy Bolter try to cut down the Genestealers.
They did say mitigation, sure, but they also said that very few things would outright ignore morale. This is clearly not the case.
Removing ID does help things like warriors out a ton, sure, but in the era of 'give everything a tons of wounds' like AoS was and 8th seems to be, the lack of extra wounds is a bit worrisome.
I also think it's important to note that Nid creatures should be easier to kill in this edition due to the new 'to-wound' chart and multi-damage weapons. Bolters can now wound the MCs on 5+, for example. And anti-tank weapons should do massive damage to the big bugs, vs only 1 wound like 7E.
We also do not know the range of Synapse. It could be only 6" for most creatures, with only Tyrants giving 12" Even if it is 12" standard, it should not be that hard to kill a key creature from a flank and then go to town on the bugs that are now outside of Synapse. Remember too that individual models can fire at different targets, so you can shoot the big guns at a few key Synapse critters, while your smalls arms fire strips some smaller bugs off a few units.
Overall I think the potential for Nids to be great is clearly there, but so is the potential for them to start crumbling. This is how is should be.
Galef wrote: We also do not know the range of Synapse. It could be only 6" for most creatures, with only Tyrants giving 12"
Even if it is 12" standard, it should not be that hard to kill a key creature from a flank and then go to town on the bugs that are now outside of Synapse.
-
Might be harder than you think when they are far behind with congo line leading to them so that one guy is at the bubble range. Much like in AOS where that is standard method to protect characters from being sniped.
Galef wrote: I also think it's important to note that Nid creatures should be easier to kill in this edition due to the new 'to-wound' chart and multi-damage weapons. Bolters can now wound the MCs on 5+, for example.
And anti-tank weapons should do massive damage to the big bugs, vs only 1 wound like 7E.
They also have far more wounds and they benefit from the changes to armor, so it balances it out.
All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.* But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.
*It seems people are just mad because they misunderstood what GW said about the new Morale system.
Galef wrote: All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.*
But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.
Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.
In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.
8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models.
Galef wrote: All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.* But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.
Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.
In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.
8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models
.
So just don't lose any models in combat against Nids...
.....just kidding. That's a fair point
I'd still say it makes sense for Nids and they needed that boost badly. Perhaps Synapse creatures are a good deal more expensive now
Galef wrote: All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.*
But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.
Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.
In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.
8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models.
so KILL THE SYNAPSE CRITTER.
yet again the rule makes perfect sense, in synapse tyranids aren't iondividual orginisms. the fluff describes gaunts literally rushing in to kll themselves etc. for all we know there are other ruyles such as if a synapse critter dies, every unit in it's synapse makes a battleshot test then and there. (which would be perhaps unduely harsh but I could see it making sense)
Galef wrote: All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.* But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.
Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.
In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.
8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models.
So kill their synapse units.
Rumors are that IB is gone and instead synapse-reliant units will have extremely low leadership (around 4). If that's the case then being immune to battleshock while in synapse is balanced out by being especially susceptible when out of it.
If a ld4 unit loses 6 models (very easy to do with t3 6+sv models), they'll lose 9 more models from battleshock with average rolls. That's 15 dead models in a single phase.
In 7th being out of synapse made it so you lost whole units to IB. That was way to harsh. You want to know why no one took hormagaunts? They would eat half thier own unit, fail morale and run off the closest table edge.
If a ld4 unit loses 6 models (very easy to do with t3 6+sv models), they'll lose 11 more models from battleshock with average rolls. That's 17 dead models in a single phase.
D6+6-4 = D6+2, 3 to 8 casualties, where are you getting 11 from?
yet again the rule makes perfect sense, in synapse tyranids aren't iondividual orginisms. the fluff describes gaunts literally rushing in to kll themselves etc. for all we know there are other ruyles such as if a synapse critter dies, every unit in it's synapse makes a battleshot test then and there. (which would be perhaps unduely harsh but I could see it making sense)
Did I say do the rules make sense or not? All I said is that fearless in 7th ed and fearless in 8th ed aren't same at all(generally the squishier you are the more fearless helps you).
Sure wish people would read what I say before answering.
Galef wrote: All I am saying is that Nids were Fearless in 7E and they were hardly top tier. Being "Fearless" in 8E doesn't really change anything.*
But now the opponent is far more rewarded getting units out of Synapse range.
Umm there is big difference here. In 7th ed being fearless meant simply you didn't suffer issues when you lost combat. In 8th ed however there is no winner or loser in combat. There are simply casualties.
In 7th ed tyranids suffered 7 casualties and enemy lost 4. Tyranids lost and only they had something to worry about LD. With fearless that wasn't worry. Neither was situation bad for enemy either. They didn't take any test either.
8th ed tyranids still don't take test but enemy will be losing d6+4-LD models.
So kill their synapse units.
Rumors are that IB is gone and instead synapse-reliant units will have extremely low leadership (around 4). If that's the case then being immune to battleshock while in synapse is balanced out by being especially susceptible when out of it.
If a ld4 unit loses 6 models (very easy to do with t3 6+sv models), they'll lose 11 more models from battleshock with average rolls. That's 17 dead models in a single phase.
and remember only warrior primes are gonna be able to be bubble wrap protected, 'nids could be in for a rough time vs the right armies. your average squad of warriors is gonna be 3 warriors with 3 wounds, as they are not characters, (but simply Tyranid Infantry) a Lemen russ battletank configured for infantry hunting, is gonna make quick work of that unit. and proably have eneugh heavy bolter fire left over to force Battleshock on the group of gaunts that where being escorted in.
yes IF the tyranids get into your lines with synapse it's gonna be a mess with high casualites, thats how it should work.
BrianDavion wrote: and remember only warrior primes are gonna be able to be bubble wrap protected, 'nids could be in for a rough time vs the right armies. your average squad of warriors is gonna be 3 warriors with 3 wounds, as they are not characters, (but simply Tyranid Infantry) a Lemen russ battletank configured for infantry hunting, is gonna make quick work of that unit. and proably have eneugh heavy bolter fire left over to force Battleshock on the group of gaunts that where being escorted in.
yes IF the tyranids get into your lines with synapse it's gonna be a mess with high casualites, thats how it should work.
It's going to be an interesting game of cat and mouse. The tyranid player will want to keep his synapse units close enough to the action for their buffs to work, but they're also going to have to be careful not to lose them.
Lance845 wrote: That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.
Explain how and why synapse negating battleshock is detrimental to the game.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game. 7th ed was plagued by a bunch of rules that were supposed to play on moral and leadership. Shadow in the Warp, fear, moral tests. Armies paid to have those rules to no effect because so many factions had damn near if not flat out immunity to it.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit. It will be a core part of their toolbox to make them effective. When Nightlords fight Tyranids you can take their unique benefits and throw them away. They don't exist. Nids are immune.
With my suggested idea that -1 penalty still applies. Nids in synapse will be leadership 9 with only 1/2 losses counting towards battleshock. The nightlords tools still take effect while the nids are still buffed against it. Their willingness to introduce this once means more of it will come later. You need a hard line in the sand that says immunity is not allowed or you can look forward to another edition of having entire groups special rules just being negated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stop using fluff to justify game mechanics.
The fluff doesn't matter. A balanced fun game matters. Acording to the fluff the entire game board should be coveredin shadow in the warp and any psyker who fights tyranids should be bleeding out his eyes and ears and going mad.
The fluff does not need to be represented on the table top as literal extremes. Functional, intuitive, fun gameplay takes precedence.
8th edition will not differ from 7th, there will be tons of "exceptions" you will see the day warscroll will be released and in battletomes/general handbook and the rule about tyr is at least logical, gw is always gw , there is nothing to do... that's why i dont play seriously since long time, any gw games.
Lance845 wrote: That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.
Explain how and why synapse negating battleshock is detrimental to the game.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game. 7th ed was plagued by a bunch of rules that were supposed to play on moral and leadership. Shadow in the Warp, fear, moral tests. Armies paid to have those rules to no effect because so many factions had damn near if not flat out immunity to it.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit. It will be a core part of their toolbox to make them effective. When Nightlords fight Tyranids you can take their unique benefits and throw them away. They don't exist. Nids are immune.
With my suggested idea that -1 penalty still applies. Nids in synapse will be leadership 9 with only 1/2 losses counting towards battleshock. The nightlords tools still take effect while the nids are still buffed against it. Their willingness to introduce this once means more of it will come later. You need a hard line in the sand that says immunity is not allowed or you can look forward to another edition of having entire groups special rules just being negated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stop using fluff to justify game mechanics.
The fluff doesn't matter. A balanced fun game matters. Acording to the fluff the entire game board should be coveredin shadow in the warp and any psyker who fights tyranids should be bleeding out his eyes and ears and going mad.
The fluff does not need to be represented on the table top as literal extremes. Functional, intuitive, fun gameplay takes precedence.
Fluff takes precedence. The game will be fun recreating historic and cinematic battles from the 40k universe, and if its a bit unbalanced that's okay because its not a competitive game, its just some blokes drinking beer over toy soldiers.
I care more about fluff than the game, as long as something is fluffy its fine provided its not gamebreaking. Synapse is not game-breaking. Did you have any issue blowing away T3 6+ save before? Then you wont now. If you come equipped with the right tools, ie, Heavy Bolters, you'll be fine.
In the "shooting is dead" thread I posted about how this isn't going to be a "I shoot you all or you chop all my stuff" game. CC armies are going to hit combat, and rip apart units, and shooting will blow whole units away, but at the end of T4 each side is going to have a handful of models left. You aren't just going to blow whole armies away before they reach you anymore.
There will be no interesting game of cat and mouse. If synapse is 100% needed to maintain control (like it is now in 7th) then either units that we would loose control over will be rare (as they are now in competitive lists (because they are non existent)) or synapse units will be brought in such numbers that focusing on them will be a waste of your time (like I build my lists now).
Roughly 1/3rd of my units are synapse. I overlap synapse bubbles so nothing is ever really at risk of dropping out. I bring 1 unit of 1 zoanthrope and 1 unit of 2 zoanthrops, some warriors up the middle, a second set of warriors in a living artillery node in the back and a hive tyrant popping around picking off targets and dropping in some supporting synapse if need be (it never was).
So you can try to kill multiple units of warriors and zoanthropes and hope my HT is off on it's own and let everything else in the list run wild over you or you can deal with the problems that are in your face which allows the synapse to go unmolested.
Nids function through target saturation. Distractions and redundancies. I never have 1 thing providing a key role. I have 3 or 4. I don't bring 30 hormagaunts in 1 unit. I bring 2 units of 15 and I put them in your face. You cut down one I still have the other. Meanwhile biovores bombard you from the back, an exocrine lays high AP dakka. Warriors firing off a single cannon but otherwise being unassuming. Go ahead. Shoot the warriors. 15 hormagaunts on the charge have never failed to chew through the units I wanted them to eat through.
Assuming it will be as simple for everyone as "Just kill the synapse guys" is short sighted. Anyone with any list building skills will never make it that easy. You will have too much to deal with or too many synapse units to make it efficient.
Lance845 wrote: That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.
Explain how and why synapse negating battleshock is detrimental to the game.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game. 7th ed was plagued by a bunch of rules that were supposed to play on moral and leadership. Shadow in the Warp, fear, moral tests. Armies paid to have those rules to no effect because so many factions had damn near if not flat out immunity to it.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit. It will be a core part of their toolbox to make them effective. When Nightlords fight Tyranids you can take their unique benefits and throw them away. They don't exist. Nids are immune.
With my suggested idea that -1 penalty still applies. Nids in synapse will be leadership 9 with only 1/2 losses counting towards battleshock. The nightlords tools still take effect while the nids are still buffed against it. Their willingness to introduce this once means more of it will come later. You need a hard line in the sand that says immunity is not allowed or you can look forward to another edition of having entire groups special rules just being negated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stop using fluff to justify game mechanics.
The fluff doesn't matter. A balanced fun game matters. Acording to the fluff the entire game board should be coveredin shadow in the warp and any psyker who fights tyranids should be bleeding out his eyes and ears and going mad.
The fluff does not need to be represented on the table top as literal extremes. Functional, intuitive, fun gameplay takes precedence.
Fluff takes precedence. The game will be fun recreating historic and cinematic battles from the 40k universe, and if its a bit unbalanced that's okay because its not a competitive game, its just some blokes drinking beer over toy soldiers.
I care more about fluff than the game, as long as something is fluffy its fine provided its not gamebreaking. Synapse is not game-breaking. Did you have any issue blowing away T3 6+ save before? Then you wont now. If you come equipped with the right tools, ie, Heavy Bolters, you'll be fine.
In the "shooting is dead" thread I posted about how this isn't going to be a "I shoot you all or you chop all my stuff" game. CC armies are going to hit combat, and rip apart units, and shooting will blow whole units away, but at the end of T4 each side is going to have a handful of models left. You aren't just going to blow whole armies away before they reach you anymore.
1) I don't have bolters. My armies are Nids (first and foremost), Necrons, and recently I started building Tau.
2) you didn't address the massive fluff discrepancy of SitW.
3) If you really think fluff should take precedence you shouldn't be talking about the mechanics at all. I don't think synapse is "game breaking" alone. I think immunity to the core mechanics of the game is bad for the game as a whole.
Then you play Narrative, and he plays Matched.
Problem solved. Thank you GW for this awesome solution to the "WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE PRIORITISE LIKE ME"-problem.
I wouldn't be so sure that night lords would loose all their special stuff vs nids.
Right now they're all about jump units and messing with morale.
So NL could deepstrike assault with talons or whatever and toast those synapse creatures.
Once they have removed synapse, the (presumably) low leadership will be further debuffed causing any casualties to pretty much wipe the rest of the unit.
If they can reduce leadership by two, then even a single casualty will cause them to loose models on a 2+ and you're not likely to kill a single gaunt. Assuming they have only 4 leadership.
All I'm saying is that I'm totally fine with nids being fearless in the way they are.
It's fluffy and you can shut it down, so they aren't completely immune, and when they do loose it? Hoo-boy.
Army wide fearless is huge in 8th, but the bigger they are...
Roknar wrote: I wouldn't be so sure that night lords would loose all their special stuff vs nids.
Right now they're all about jump units and messing with morale.
So NL could deepstrike assault with talons or whatever and toast those synapse creatures.
Once they have removed synapse, the (presumably) low leadership will be further debuffed causing any casualties to pretty much wipe the rest of the unit.
If they can reduce leadership by two, then even a single casualty will cause them to loose models on a 2+ and you're not likely to kill a single gaunt. Assuming they have only 4 leadership.
All I'm saying is that I'm totally fine with nids being fearless in the way they are.
It's fluffy and you can shut it down, so they aren't completely immune, and when they do loose it? Hoo-boy.
Army wide fearless is huge in 8th, but the bigger they are...
Again, this idea that you will take out a single synapse unit and the synapse web will crumple is based on a fallacy.
If that is a very real possibility (and I believe it is) nids won't build their lists that way. It's going to be piles of synapse. Your night lords gunning for a single synapse unit are going to get hit by everything else still supported by all the other synapse units. Or worse, it will be like the flyrant/lictor/mawloc lists now. There won't be anything that really needs synapse for you to try and cripple.
People will build their lists by the most efficient and effective means possible. The idea that you will be able to effectively target the synapse creatures and everything will fall apart is based on the idea that the player who built his list is an idiot.
If you play Nids you shouldn't complain. You got a big boost, and any Nid vs Nid battles will be bloody good games. Tau have more than enough firepower to handle Nids. Necrons haven't been shown, wait a few days and see if Gauss is now D3 wounds or something rediculous. Either way, every army is more than capable of dealing with multiple soft and hard targets, and if you build a decent list, you can deal with Nids.
2) All the psykers on the battlefield are powerful enough to resist enough to fight. SitW doesn't kill instantly. See Tiguirius and Iyanden (all Eldar are psykers). Those who are weak enough to die in such a manner are already dead before battle begins.
3) I was making a point of you asking for a perfectly balanced and even game, which is impossible to create in the first place, and harder still when adhering to fluff. I'd rather the game be imperfect and fluffy than perfect but ignore the fluff entirely. Its just a matter of who wants what and I can just as easily ask for full fluffy rules at the total expense of balance, just as you say that fluff should completely go out the window for balance sake. Its a two-layer system and neither the fluff crowd or competitive crowd can win while the other doesn't feel rubbed wrong. In the case of synapse, I think it got the perfect version because its both fluffy and not broken. You say its bad but the truth is all special rules break the core rules. Genestealers running and charging breaks the core rule of "Can't run and charge" and Tau Fly breaks "If you fall back you can't do anything." The thing you're worried about is a slippery slope that leads to Deathstars and ATSKNF. I'm perfectly fine with one army in the game ignoring this element of the game as it suits the army style and fluff both, and makes interesting and fun gameplay.
Would it be more fun for anyone if you could simply shoot a few gaunts and have them be decimated by morale? It certainly wouldn't be for the Nid player, it'd be business as usual (ie, not playing) and it wouldn't be fluffy either.
Re; Narrative gameplay
A useless element of the game that anyone can do anyway. You make a custom mission or campaign and play. It doesn't change the core rules. Power Levels are also poor for this. Either make 2 roughly equal points armies or just take whatever or specific units, power levels are no use for anything.
That is is a (real) possibility, not a guarantee. We're going to have to see the dex to know for sure.
Much of that will depend on what the new detachments look like and the missions.
Ideally, a nid player would have a few synapse creature spread out to over the army and a bunch of non synapse. Balanced armies is what they are gunning for after all and I mean that in the sense of not spamming a few elite (as in good) units.
So between deepstriking and firing big guns at the synapse creature since they can't hide, you should be able to, ideally, gradually make nids crumble. Probably focusing on one area at time.
Nids should be able to take a a few hits without loosing synapse right away as well though.
There's nothing wrong with the mechanic, but it's not an easy one to get right. If people start using only synapse units then the army isn't well balanced.
Such an elite army should be optional but not required to stand a chance. Non synapse could be super cheap too so even if you loose a few units it won't matter too much.
They could turn nids into THE horde army for all we know.
We don't know how scoring/objectives will affect gameplay so there might be incentive to take a fair few non synapse units
You're not wrong, they could easily mess it up, but the mechanic could work just fine and I hope it does.
Nids could also simply be fast enough to be in your face so soon that you will be too busy fighting chaff to efficiently fight the synapse units. the best defense is offense right?
Oh and nids will be right up there with the rest of the factions in terms of inflitration/deepstrike/tunneling on turn 1, that should provide enough of a distraction to keep the synapse units safeish for a while.
Lance845 wrote: That being said, nids being immune to moral is bad for the game, as is anything but a very small hand full of units VERY rarely.
Explain how and why synapse negating battleshock is detrimental to the game.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game. 7th ed was plagued by a bunch of rules that were supposed to play on moral and leadership. Shadow in the Warp, fear, moral tests. Armies paid to have those rules to no effect because so many factions had damn near if not flat out immunity to it.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit. It will be a core part of their toolbox to make them effective. When Nightlords fight Tyranids you can take their unique benefits and throw them away. They don't exist. Nids are immune.
With my suggested idea that -1 penalty still applies. Nids in synapse will be leadership 9 with only 1/2 losses counting towards battleshock. The nightlords tools still take effect while the nids are still buffed against it. Their willingness to introduce this once means more of it will come later. You need a hard line in the sand that says immunity is not allowed or you can look forward to another edition of having entire groups special rules just being negated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stop using fluff to justify game mechanics.
The fluff doesn't matter. A balanced fun game matters. Acording to the fluff the entire game board should be coveredin shadow in the warp and any psyker who fights tyranids should be bleeding out his eyes and ears and going mad.
The fluff does not need to be represented on the table top as literal extremes. Functional, intuitive, fun gameplay takes precedence.
Almost every game has a way to "break" core mechanics. Fireteam Zero, Pandemic, Mansion, and even classic board games had ways to do this (Sorry! has the title card, which basically breaks the game itself especially if you do the mature version).
It is such a bad complaint. It's almost a non-complaint. It's almost complaining to complain.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit.
Given that Space Marines never had to pay for Chapter Tactics, this argument holds about as much water as a holey cup.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game
Only if there's no way of mitigating it. ATSKNF was terrible for this reason, the ability to strike down Synapse creatures grant's a benefit and cost measure.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit.
Given that Space Marines never had to pay for Chapter Tactics, this argument holds about as much water as a holey cup.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game
Only if there's no way of mitigating it. ATSKNF was terrible for this reason, the ability to strike down Synapse creatures grant's a benefit and cost measure.
ATSKNF really wasn't a bad rule. The main hate it does deserve, though, is it ignoring Fear outright instead of providing a bonus.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit.
Given that Space Marines never had to pay for Chapter Tactics, this argument holds about as much water as a holey cup.
Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game
Only if there's no way of mitigating it. ATSKNF was terrible for this reason, the ability to strike down Synapse creatures grant's a benefit and cost measure.
ATSKNF really wasn't a bad rule. The main hate it does deserve, though, is it ignoring Fear outright instead of providing a bonus.
You just need to shoot the big ones and the rest of nids will be confused, run etc. It is fluffy.
It is fluffy and as a Nid player I am all for it. Nid players now have to protect their synapse bugs but keep them close enough to the charging hoards to keep them in line. Opponents have to decide whether to prioritize synapse bugs --to break the army early--or the fast hoard about to hit your line and shred a few units (first turn charge looks to be a thing), or the big bugs that are slower but when they hit, they'll obliterate. My Trygon and Carnifexes might actually get in some charges in 8th.
Lance845 wrote: Anything that ignores core mechanics of the game is bad for the game. 7th ed was plagued by a bunch of rules that were supposed to play on moral and leadership. Shadow in the Warp, fear, moral tests. Armies paid to have those rules to no effect because so many factions had damn near if not flat out immunity to it.
Lets pretend that nightlords will have some bonus to battleshock. That when enemies suffer battleshock their leadership will be -1 or some such.
They will pay for that benefit. It will be a core part of their toolbox to make them effective. When Nightlords fight Tyranids you can take their unique benefits and throw them away. They don't exist. Nids are immune.
With my suggested idea that -1 penalty still applies. Nids in synapse will be leadership 9 with only 1/2 losses counting towards battleshock. The nightlords tools still take effect while the nids are still buffed against it. Their willingness to introduce this once means more of it will come later. You need a hard line in the sand that says immunity is not allowed or you can look forward to another edition of having entire groups special rules just being negated.
Tyranids don't have immunity to battleshock though, tyranid units under synapse do. Using your analogy, all the CSM player would have to do is kill the synapse creatures and the rest of the army will be ripe for battleshock diddling.
Your response might be that the CSM player shouldn't have to target specific units in order for their core rules to work, and my response would be that it's bad game design for an army to be so binary that they're screwed if a single core rule is negated anyway. It's just as bad for an army to entirely rely on one scenario as it is for an army to be immune to one scenario.
Lance845 wrote: If that is a very real possibility (and I believe it is) nids won't build their lists that way. It's going to be piles of synapse.
It isn't like tyranids don't pay for their synapse. The cheapest synapse unit in the codex is 30ppm, and you have to take three minimum in a squad. That's 90 points for a 6'' bubble.
I'd prefer of the games simulate the background story. SitW should mess with psykers, nid armies should play out the way they are described and people are led to believe, as should eldar and SM. Eldar should be exotic and use mobility to win a fight, not spam troops and gun 'em down like cattle. Marines should act as a scalpel in games, making precision strikes. Orks could have had the BC formation instead, as it would have befitted them more.
well assuming the bubble radius is the same. but yeah there may be some times in which it's more efficant not to bother with synapse. (such as sending a gaunt squad to hunt down a 10 man guard squad or something) but obviously that runs a risk. if synapse critters tend to be slower then non syapse ones that could also force some decisions.
I think rhe toughness of Warriors is going to hang on how many multiple-wound causing weapons we see the enemy use.
If, for example, Krak Missiles, Autocannons and the like are rolling D3s or D4s for damage they may be only marginally harder to kill off than now.
Although if high Strength blast and ordnance markers aren't splatting entire broods that would be a blessing.
I also have a crazy hope that Lictors may return to being the killing machines they were back in second edition. Being able to disrupt - and by that I mean kill to death - enemy support units will help our key broods to get across the table.
I mean really crazy wishlist would be for a Carnifex that is good in CC and incredibly hard to kill. Rather than the gun platform they have been for ages. :-(
If that is a very real possibility (and I believe it is) nids won't build their lists that way. It's going to be piles of synapse. Your night lords gunning for a single synapse unit are going to get hit by everything else still supported by all the other synapse units. Or worse, it will be like the flyrant/lictor/mawloc lists now. There won't be anything that really needs synapse for you to try and cripple.
People will build their lists by the most efficient and effective means possible. The idea that you will be able to effectively target the synapse creatures and everything will fall apart is based on the idea that the player who built his list is an idiot.
Then he pays more for synapse and less on the killy stuff. Which isn't that bad result either.
There seems to be a little bit of confusion about my position and arguments.
I am not interested in being uber powerful. I am not happy if Nids become the top tier army. I want INTERESTING games. I want there to be a ton of back and forth. I want the risk of loosing and winning anyway, or loosing by the skin of my teeth for a really great game.
We don't have enough information to say one way or another exactly how nids will be. We have little snippets about a few units and a confirmation of how one of our 3 traditional army wide rules will function (by saying synapse makes us immune to moral). Not the actual rule mind you. We don't know if it's the traditional 12" bubble or if the range will be variable for different units. We also don't know how shadow in the warp will work... or if it even exists. We don't know Instinctive behavior.
My stance on the immunity boils down to this.
If it was simply really powerful bonus against moral then it's still a risk and other variables could make it better or worse. It becomes an element that our enemy can use, even if it's unlikely to work (and it should be. Synapse should make us NIGH immune to moral).
But the moment you say it makes us immune it's done. The loop is closed. There are no variables and the risk is exactly 0. Nothing interesting can come from that. There is no tactic for us outside of the strategy of bringing enough synapse redundancies.
It's a totally binary situation. Have it and forget about it. Don't have it and be able to do nothing to stop hordes from falling all over themselves every time they get shot at.
It's not interesting now in 7th to loose all your synapse by turn 3 or 4 and then sit through another 2-3 rounds of game play while you loose active control of your units. It's not interesting or fun for most people to win that way and it's not fun to loose that way.
The moment you make synapse into that binary system you have nudged the whole system back into that same direction. Have it and don't worry. Loose it and... well.. we don't really know yet? But since synapse has gone so far in the one direction I am pretty worried about the other.
Points cost doesn't matter. Paying more for immunity doesn't make it ok because it's still not interesting. I want to participate in the game. Moral is finally becoming a major part of the game. It sucks that nids, by their basic rules and intelligent list building, by building fluffy, are going to just ignore that major part of the game as though it doesn't exist. For them, it literally doesn't.
without synapse would be perfect
Best of both worlds.
