Hey, currently designing a TAC list focused on countering the soon-to-be-everywhere Storm Raven spam. So far my initial ideas are 6-10 Primaris psykers in a guard blob and Celestine. As I see it the speed and short range of rapid fire hurricane bolters leaves the ravens open to mass smite, although allying in screening scions would stop me dead in the water.
My question is, are there any other viable units that are effective at taking out Ravens or are they virtually untouchable?
I'm building a comp necron list with a pylon, have enough dakka to take down 2 a turn minimum, with refilling the seize roll. If I get first turn it's very good for me, and I'm hardy enough so that if the pylon takes abuse it regens 2D3 wounds a turn.
BS3+ Lascannons work fine. BS2+ Lascannons work even better. The Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought is a solid pick, as is the Xiphon Interceptor.
Scion or Elysian drop squads with plasma work very well -- they're more likely to overheat but they still expect to make their points back in a single volley against a Stormraven. And yeah, Smite is pretty good.
I don't think this is good advice. Stalkers are not very good at killing T7 flyers. At BS3+, an icarus stormcannon is about the same as a lascannon against a Stormraven. If you're otherwise tempted by this, I'd suggest just taking a twin lascannon Razorback instead. It's a little more fragile but it's not a waste of points if your opponent only brings ground-based vehicles. The main advantage of Stalkers is just that they're very durable, but they don't shoot very well and so if the rest of your list is more fragile then that's the stuff that's going to get killed off.
My Stormraven got shot down within a single turn by the cross fire of 2 Onager Dunecrawlers near Belisarius Cawl with their Neutron Lasers. I don't think they are that kind of tough to take down, it just need proper buff to do it quickly.
Neophyte2012 wrote: My Stormraven got shot down within a single turn by the cross fire of 2 Onager Dunecrawlers near Belisarius Cawl with their Neutron Lasers. I don't think they are that kind of tough to take down, it just need proper buff to do it quickly.
Magnus and a few units of Rapier Laser Destroyers? Magnus casts Warptime on himself to catapult towards the nearest Stormraven, he casts Prescience on one of the Laser Destroyers and Smite on the nearest Stormraven. Come the shooting phase, all the Rapiers open fire on the Stormraven furthest away from Magnus: the unit with Prescience doing over 9 wounds (roughly) and those without doing 7 wounds. Then in the charge phase Magnus charges the nearest Stormraven and destroys it (this isn't negotiable).
I'm more concerned about taking on SR spamming using non-forgeworld models. I like the Magnus option though, but my issues are first turn and stormstrike m. The more I think about it, the more I realize how easy it is for the SR player to counter the counter, screening conscript blob with move-move-move, C. Assassin to reduce smite etc.
Storm raven spam is tough to counter unles you seize
Under ITC, that's a bit easier, but a raven list going first will kill enough of your counters so as to make it hard for your remaining shots to down them
the biggest issue is SR spam list most of times start 1st (at least under normal rules, in ITC is another story), so it's allowed to destroy or heavily cripple your counters.
stratigo wrote: Storm raven spam is tough to counter unles you seize
Under ITC, that's a bit easier, but a raven list going first will kill enough of your counters so as to make it hard for your remaining shots to down them
It is actually almost as easy to seize even when following the rulebook. Just remember to use a command reroll when trying to seize and you will succeed 30.5% of the time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
blackmage wrote: the biggest issue is SR spam list most of times start 1st (at least under normal rules, in ITC is another story), so it's allowed to destroy or heavily cripple your counters.
Always remember to use a command-reroll when trying to seize the initiative.
The list that won Caledonian Revolution '17 only had 4 Storm Ravens; was two Storm Hawks and two Storm Talons besides. Eight acolytes and Kayvaan Shrike.
Bring dedicated AT - Stalkers are decent/sub-par, but real AT is more effective. Storm Raven's wounds can absorb an annoying amount of autocannon-type shooting (which is what most AA comprises of). For ~25pts more you can get a lascannon predator, for example. 4x lascannon shots are better than the two Icarus Autocannons the Stalker gets - the low AP, 4+ to wound, and lack of greater ROF means a Stalker's damage output isn't great.
Don't know if a 'smite death star blob' is the answer, though. AM has much better tools than that - very easy to get massed lascannons or the like. That plus infantry blobs to deny them areas of movement should be more effective.
GhostRecon wrote: The list that won Caledonian Revolution '17 only had 4 Storm Ravens; was two Storm Hawks and two Storm Talons besides. Eight acolytes and Kayvaan Shrike.
Bring dedicated AT - Stalkers are decent/sub-par, but real AT is more effective. Storm Raven's wounds can absorb an annoying amount of autocannon-type shooting (which is what most AA comprises of). For ~25pts more you can get a lascannon predator, for example. 4x lascannon shots are better than the two Icarus Autocannons the Stalker gets - the low AP, 4+ to wound, and lack of greater ROF means a Stalker's damage output isn't great.
Don't know if a 'smite death star blob' is the answer, though. AM has much better tools than that - very easy to get massed lascannons or the like. That plus infantry blobs to deny them areas of movement should be more effective.
The -1 to hit really puts a dint into HWS with lascannons. You'd need 18 or so to be mildly effective, but then he's taking first turn. As it stands smite is the only answer.
GhostRecon wrote: The list that won Caledonian Revolution '17 only had 4 Storm Ravens; was two Storm Hawks and two Storm Talons besides. Eight acolytes and Kayvaan Shrike.
Bring dedicated AT - Stalkers are decent/sub-par, but real AT is more effective. Storm Raven's wounds can absorb an annoying amount of autocannon-type shooting (which is what most AA comprises of). For ~25pts more you can get a lascannon predator, for example. 4x lascannon shots are better than the two Icarus Autocannons the Stalker gets - the low AP, 4+ to wound, and lack of greater ROF means a Stalker's damage output isn't great.
Don't know if a 'smite death star blob' is the answer, though. AM has much better tools than that - very easy to get massed lascannons or the like. That plus infantry blobs to deny them areas of movement should be more effective.
The -1 to hit really puts a dint into HWS with lascannons. You'd need 18 or so to be mildly effective, but then he's taking first turn. As it stands smite is the only answer.
Re-rolls help.
It's expensive, but I just did well against some fliers with Centurion Devastators next to Guilliman for the total re-rolls. Shot down a plane in a single turn with 6 Lascannon shots.
NOLA Chris wrote: I just asked this on the Ork anti-raven thread,
but as I have chaos too (Emp's Chidren)...
Fire Storm Redoubt
be a usefull anti-air choice?
300ish points for 8 lascannons
or is a couple of Chaos Las-Predators a better choice?
The problem with lascannons against planes is the -1 to hit with the low rate of fire. You either need to bring lots of them (super expensive) or simulate having lots of them with re-rolls.
Quick math says 8 of them with BS 3+ should do about 7-8 wounds a turn to a flier, so 2 turns to kill the medium and heavy ones.
So I actually ran the math on these and I remember it coming up terrible. Like, 3-4 wounds per turn. I can do it again, but the problem is most of their guns don't wound T7 very well.
GhostRecon wrote: The list that won Caledonian Revolution '17 only had 4 Storm Ravens; was two Storm Hawks and two Storm Talons besides. Eight acolytes and Kayvaan Shrike.
Bring dedicated AT - Stalkers are decent/sub-par, but real AT is more effective. Storm Raven's wounds can absorb an annoying amount of autocannon-type shooting (which is what most AA comprises of). For ~25pts more you can get a lascannon predator, for example. 4x lascannon shots are better than the two Icarus Autocannons the Stalker gets - the low AP, 4+ to wound, and lack of greater ROF means a Stalker's damage output isn't great.
Don't know if a 'smite death star blob' is the answer, though. AM has much better tools than that - very easy to get massed lascannons or the like. That plus infantry blobs to deny them areas of movement should be more effective.
The -1 to hit really puts a dint into HWS with lascannons. You'd need 18 or so to be mildly effective, but then he's taking first turn. As it stands smite is the only answer.
Re-rolls help.
It's expensive, but I just did well against some fliers with Centurion Devastators next to Guilliman for the total re-rolls. Shot down a plane in a single turn with 6 Lascannon shots.
I actually took Guilliman with las-cannon devs in a guard blob list to the Caledonian. I'd suggest using a transport to block LOS rather than hiding them behind cover.
GhostRecon wrote: The list that won Caledonian Revolution '17 only had 4 Storm Ravens; was two Storm Hawks and two Storm Talons besides. Eight acolytes and Kayvaan Shrike.
Bring dedicated AT - Stalkers are decent/sub-par, but real AT is more effective. Storm Raven's wounds can absorb an annoying amount of autocannon-type shooting (which is what most AA comprises of). For ~25pts more you can get a lascannon predator, for example. 4x lascannon shots are better than the two Icarus Autocannons the Stalker gets - the low AP, 4+ to wound, and lack of greater ROF means a Stalker's damage output isn't great.
Don't know if a 'smite death star blob' is the answer, though. AM has much better tools than that - very easy to get massed lascannons or the like. That plus infantry blobs to deny them areas of movement should be more effective.
The -1 to hit really puts a dint into HWS with lascannons. You'd need 18 or so to be mildly effective, but then he's taking first turn. As it stands smite is the only answer.
Re-rolls help.
It's expensive, but I just did well against some fliers with Centurion Devastators next to Guilliman for the total re-rolls. Shot down a plane in a single turn with 6 Lascannon shots.
I actually took Guilliman with las-cannon devs in a guard blob list to the Caledonian. I'd suggest using a transport to block LOS rather than hiding them behind cover.
That's not a bad idea. Maybe a Drop Pod?
I went with the Centurions myself. Since they can move and fire without penalty and are infantry, it let me walk through Ruins walls to shoot things while denying LoS the turn prior.
They ended up getting wrecked after 2 Militarum Tempestus Command Squads came down and Rapid Fire Plasma'd them into oblivion. Did good work before that though.
GhostRecon wrote: The list that won Caledonian Revolution '17 only had 4 Storm Ravens; was two Storm Hawks and two Storm Talons besides. Eight acolytes and Kayvaan Shrike.
Bring dedicated AT - Stalkers are decent/sub-par, but real AT is more effective. Storm Raven's wounds can absorb an annoying amount of autocannon-type shooting (which is what most AA comprises of). For ~25pts more you can get a lascannon predator, for example. 4x lascannon shots are better than the two Icarus Autocannons the Stalker gets - the low AP, 4+ to wound, and lack of greater ROF means a Stalker's damage output isn't great.
Don't know if a 'smite death star blob' is the answer, though. AM has much better tools than that - very easy to get massed lascannons or the like. That plus infantry blobs to deny them areas of movement should be more effective.
The -1 to hit really puts a dint into HWS with lascannons. You'd need 18 or so to be mildly effective, but then he's taking first turn. As it stands smite is the only answer.
Re-rolls help.
It's expensive, but I just did well against some fliers with Centurion Devastators next to Guilliman for the total re-rolls. Shot down a plane in a single turn with 6 Lascannon shots.
I actually took Guilliman with las-cannon devs in a guard blob list to the Caledonian. I'd suggest using a transport to block LOS rather than hiding them behind cover.
Orders for HWTs, Master of Ordnance for Manticores/Basilisks (very situational I know, due to range limitations), Tank Commanders/Pask (with or w/o 'normal' Russes) using battle cannons or Punisher Gatling cannons, Hellhounds (Inferno cannon is actually pretty good against T7 3+) are other AM-centric options - outside of Scion/Vet squads sporting Plasma Guns/Meltaguns.
2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
For Eldar Hemlocks are pretty good. They can get in close and smite the Raven, and their 2d3 S10 AP-4 D2 auto hitting guns that don't degrade when shot are pretty nasty. A couple of these can also put the hurt on any ground target.
The Tau Commander with 4 fusion blasters is pretty good. Hits on threes re-rolling ones with only one markerlight hit and wounds on threes too. Outside of Melta range that's likely 2d6 damage, inside it's take the best result from each of two pairs of 2d6s. A little luck and you can land three, and the storm raven has a good chance of being toasted.
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
Is it Gate w/Draigo causing you problems?
Yeah, I can't keep all the storms straight. They were indeed Stormtalons.
It's anecdotal because it is, in fact, an anecdote.
Draigo has caused nothing but problems since 5th edition.
We were playing 1500 pts. I had played 2 SM lists, once with tacticals and one with intercessors. The intercessor list had the 2 gunships, 4xlas pred, 1 squad of 4xlas devs and 10 hellblasters, plus a captain, techmarine and apocathary. The second list was Bubba G and a libbie and mostly tacticals with 4 las devs and 2 gunships.
He played grey knights with Draigo 2x5 purifiers (I believe), a librarian, a dreadknight and 2 assassins (one list had 2 sniper assassins and one had the 8 attacks on the charge assassins).
If I don't tailor my list to take out flyers + withstand an raven alpha strike I have 0 chance.
My superheavy company has had success. Each Stormhammer can, on average, down a flyer a turn. It has fewer drops than the aircraft and goes first, and has enough wounds and a high enough toughness that the aircraft cannot destroy them with only a single volley - so six aircraft will be destroyed in 2 shooting phases with little trouble.
For maths: Each tank has: 4 Lascannons one Stormhammer cannon (2d6 pick the highest, Str 9 AP-3 1d6 damage, re-roll any/all To Hit rolls - this is a big air defense cannon because of the re-rolls) one Twin Battlecannon 4 Heavy Bolters
Other benefit is the hulls of the vehicles are large enough to keep enemy infantry more than 3" from the center of an objective even when in base to base with the tank, allowing them to fare better than the storm ravens in some objective scenarios as well.
EDIT:
Oh, no Forge World. Well, any of the IG superheavies should really work - they've got quite a few bullets to put up, are fewer drops, and tend to have high damage values on the weapons that get through the to-hit and save rolls.
I feel like for Dark Angels, Azrael and a Primaris Lieutenant next to a bunch of Dreads, Ven Dreads, or Las Predators (in some combination) could reliably drop one SR per turn, perhaps 2, and with Azrael's 4++ bubble would be reasonably well protected. Throw in a Darkshroud for -1 to hit any of those units as well.
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
Is it Gate w/Draigo causing you problems?
Yeah, I can't keep all the storms straight. They were indeed Stormtalons.
It's anecdotal because it is, in fact, an anecdote.
Draigo has caused nothing but problems since 5th edition.
We were playing 1500 pts. I had played 2 SM lists, once with tacticals and one with intercessors. The intercessor list had the 2 gunships, 4xlas pred, 1 squad of 4xlas devs and 10 hellblasters, plus a captain, techmarine and apocathary. The second list was Bubba G and a libbie and mostly tacticals with 4 las devs and 2 gunships.
He played grey knights with Draigo 2x5 purifiers (I believe), a librarian, a dreadknight and 2 assassins (one list had 2 sniper assassins and one had the 8 attacks on the charge assassins).
If I don't tailor my list to take out flyers + withstand an raven alpha strike I have 0 chance.
Not that I'm a pro player or anything; I'm just curious if you might have more luck with something like:
3orangewhips wrote: 2 stormravens are enough to cause a considerable amount of havoc. My buddy plays grey knights. He had 2 + draigo teleporting around. Even with 2 storm gunships with missiles, a 4 las pred and a 4 las dev squad, I could only bring one down before he started deleting units. Draigo makes 2 like 4. He's talking about bringing 3 from now on.
The only reason I brought one down is I seized. When he has turn 1 I have almost no chance.
Stormravens are a problem right now. It's hard to guess how they'll shake out in the long term, but something needs to happen.
Pretty bare anecdotal example. What were the lists involved/points level?
Guessing for 'storm gunships' you meant Stormtalon Gunships w/skyhammer missiles? Ironically, the skyhammer missile is just as bad/useless as the Icarus Autocannon is when it comes to killing Stormravens. Devastator Squads also have pretty mediocre survivability compared to vehicles.
Is it Gate w/Draigo causing you problems?
Competive lists are Girlyman and Stormraven spam.
Before that they were Girlyman, a Primaris lieutenant and a ton of twin assault cannon razorbacks in a parking lot death star.
Re-roll to hit and wound. Spamming hundreds of shots per round.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
They need a serious points nerf, or weapons nerf or changes to the rules for them.
1 Raven spits out 12 assault cannon shots, 24 bolter shots, and 8 from the heavy bolters. 44 shots per turn (re-roll misses and wounds) is nuts. They delete whole units each turn.
My thinking is they remove area buffs to fliers (no re-rolls from Girlyman or the Lt) and increase points.
Should also be a tournament rule of 'no more than 2 of any unit unless it's a troop choice' or something like that to stop spam.
There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
Chrysen wrote: There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
I don't agree with that for two reasons:
1. No other flyer being spammed via the flyer detachment has been a problem.
2. Even if you put restrictions on the flyer detachment, people can still spam Stormravens via the auxilery detachment.
Chrysen wrote: There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
I don't agree with that for two reasons:
1. No other flyer being spammed via the flyer detachment has been a problem.
2. Even if you put restrictions on the flyer detachment, people can still spam Stormravens via the auxilery detachment.
The problem is the flyer not the detachment.
The problem is with both really.
Limiting spam somewhat (and enouraging troops) should be the meta. Tournament rules are supposed to limit to 3 detachments (of any kind) as is for 2000 points; I personally feel that should change with additional limits imposed, AND the Stormraven get a nerf (in points and in rules).
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
Also the big advantage of 8th edition is that if they are proved to be too good, we're not stuck forever with the OPness. They will have their points upped in Chapter Approved.
Hell, we may find their points changed in the SM Codex about to come out !
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
They can fall back, but they cant shoot.
Anything with the fly keyword can fall back and shoot.
Ravens will only get worse with the new Ultramarine chapter tactics that let them fall back and shoot (so no locking them down for a turn with charges from fliers).
Chapter tactics only affect Infantry, Bikes and Dreads. Stormravens are getting no help there.
Also, what stops Ravens from falling back and firing now anyway? They have the fly keyword.
They can fall back, but they cant shoot.
Anything with the fly keyword can fall back and shoot.
Yeah, my bad.
You cant lock them in CC by surrounding them (say with jump pack troops or similar) either, as they can fly over intervening models and terrain.
Melee isnt the way to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe a lascannon heavy force (squeeze in as many as you can) with to hit and to wound re-rolls?
Deploy malanthrope + 6 Hive tyrants near 6 tyrant guards (or pick the unit with 4 depending on the deployment) Take incoming fire.
First tyranid turn drop the other tyrant guard with tyrannocyte mid-field and cast catalyst on them. All Hive tyrants fly within 3 inch of these tyrant guards and do their thing. Smite + deathspitters + assault can take at least one down. This could tip the balance mid-game.
6 flying hive tyrants with deathspitters are still nice against other armies.
Unit1126PLL wrote: My superheavy company has had success. Each Stormhammer can, on average, down a flyer a turn. It has fewer drops than the aircraft and goes first, and has enough wounds and a high enough toughness that the aircraft cannot destroy them with only a single volley - so six aircraft will be destroyed in 2 shooting phases with little trouble.
For maths: Each tank has:
4 Lascannons
one Stormhammer cannon (2d6 pick the highest, Str 9 AP-3 1d6 damage, re-roll any/all To Hit rolls - this is a big air defense cannon because of the re-rolls)
one Twin Battlecannon
4 Heavy Bolters
Other benefit is the hulls of the vehicles are large enough to keep enemy infantry more than 3" from the center of an objective even when in base to base with the tank, allowing them to fare better than the storm ravens in some objective scenarios as well.
EDIT:
Oh, no Forge World. Well, any of the IG superheavies should really work - they've got quite a few bullets to put up, are fewer drops, and tend to have high damage values on the weapons that get through the to-hit and save rolls.
Yeah me and my buddy got a 4 drop IG list, with the stormlord packed with lascannon & mortar HWT, 2x vindicators packed with scion plasma and 78 conscripts. Nasty.
Would go first against most, and has enough dakka to down a couple of flyers a turn
We might see less of these lists now chapter tactics are leaked and just around the corner.
As for counters though, i did think of a 2k list with 6 hydras, 2 or 3 manticores, 2 hellhounds and a load of troops supported by Yarrick and Harker.
Most raven spam lists only have 2 or 3 with multi meltas, so i'd expect only a couple of hydras to die first turn (maybe a tech priest or 2 in support as well). After that it's just a simple matter of putting out the shots to take down a 2 ravens a turn.
Having fought the stormraven spam list with my marines, I went first and was able to shoot one down and damage another. They then proceeded to kill my sicaran and dreadnought. I would kill another in turn 2 and then would fail to kill anything else till the last turn of the game where I was down to almost nothing.
They do so much damage and are so fast. The only thing I took away from that game is they struggled to hurt my land raider. So maybe the answer is Guilliman with the lascannon land raider (excelsior?). Otherwise, using ITC rules, I just hide all my stuff in ruins on the first floor. If points are not going to be adjusted, I would like to see it where flyers can't claim objectives when they aren't hovering. Let them give up power for point scoring.
Buildings are an interesting potential counter to storm ravens. I'd consider bastions over bunkers. T9 reduces damage from multimeltas and stormstrike missiles by 33%.
It's less obvious what to put in them. I've got a unit of devastator centurions that I quite like. You do end up with a lot of eggs in one basket though, and spreading devastators between 3 bunkers does avoid that.
Iv taken one down by throwing about 3 nades over two turns with multiple units up its tail pipe on top of an ungodly amount of chip damage from bolters and heavy bolters after a very sad showing from a tri las pred
a tri las pred should be capable of taking it out.
Spoletta wrote: No, it happens when at the end of the charges he has a model within 3" of a char. No need to charge.
Well I'll be, re-read the rule and that's right. Captains/Lords with Jump Packs and Power Fists could heroic intervention a Stormraven if it got too close.
Spoletta wrote: No, it happens when at the end of the charges he has a model within 3" of a char. No need to charge.
Well I'll be, re-read the rule and that's right. Captains/Lords with Jump Packs and Power Fists could heroic intervention a Stormraven if it got too close.
Spoletta wrote: No, it happens when at the end of the charges he has a model within 3" of a char. No need to charge.
Well I'll be, re-read the rule and that's right. Captains/Lords with Jump Packs and Power Fists could heroic intervention a Stormraven if it got too close.
Karhedron wrote: Wraithguard with D-scythes. 5 x D3 autohitting S10 hits shoukd make a real dent.
Damage per weapon?
Only 1 point so average damage is 6.67 wounds per volley from a squad of 5. If you are playing Ynnari, you can double that with Soulburst.
Doesnt sound all that good.
Rather just go ham with lascannon variants.
I mean, it's about equivalent in effect to a Lascannon Devastator team (not sure if equivalent in points though). 4 Lascannon Devastators (Ultramarine) standing next to their Primarch should average 6.91 damage. More like 4.54 if he isn't around.
Karhedron wrote: Wraithguard with D-scythes. 5 x D3 autohitting S10 hits shoukd make a real dent.
Damage per weapon?
Only 1 point so average damage is 6.67 wounds per volley from a squad of 5. If you are playing Ynnari, you can double that with Soulburst.
Doesnt sound all that good.
Rather just go ham with lascannon variants.
I mean, it's about equivalent in effect to a Lascannon Devastator team (not sure if equivalent in points though). 4 Lascannon Devastators (Ultramarine) standing next to their Primarch should average 6.91 damage. More like 4.54 if he isn't around.
Well i would mean points wise and mobility wise getting there and doing the thing is going to be tough for wraiths i figure unless im missing an option
Karhedron wrote: Wraithguard with D-scythes. 5 x D3 autohitting S10 hits shoukd make a real dent.
Damage per weapon?
Only 1 point so average damage is 6.67 wounds per volley from a squad of 5. If you are playing Ynnari, you can double that with Soulburst.
Doesnt sound all that good.
Rather just go ham with lascannon variants.
I mean, it's about equivalent in effect to a Lascannon Devastator team (not sure if equivalent in points though). 4 Lascannon Devastators (Ultramarine) standing next to their Primarch should average 6.91 damage. More like 4.54 if he isn't around.
Well i would mean points wise and mobility wise getting there and doing the thing is going to be tough for wraiths i figure unless im missing an option
Fair enough. Lascannons have much greater range and accessibility to their target.
Nurglings all over the place to control where the stormravens can move, keep some deepstriking flying units in reserve like raptors or jump lords, and maybe forgefiends or similar in the backfield? That's my chaotic idea for anti ravenspam.
If one can force them to hoverjet then any deep strikers can charge the fliers when they come in.
Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.
Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.
Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.
Ecdain wrote: Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.
Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.
Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.
Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?
Best counter ignore storm ravens kill giulliman or accompanyone unit point at FAQ and laugh at the poor fool that jumped on the bandwagon and now has worthless stormravens
gungo wrote: To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.
Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.
People might actually need to take some anti-air support.
gungo wrote: To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.
Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.
People might actually need to take some anti-air support.
They are still tough to take down for thier cost and will be common enough still
Also I still fully expect 4x ravenspam lists to do quite well especially with a near unkillable character behind them. Place guilliman or Celestine and retinue behind them and they are immune to shooting since you can not target a character of his unit and they are good assault units that are extreme hard to kill regardless. No matter what you choose your still wasting a lot of shots. So the point of this thread still has merit even if you see less ravenspam or reduced numbers.
gungo wrote: To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.
Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.
People might actually need to take some anti-air support.
They are still tough to take down for thier cost and will be common enough still
Also I still fully expect 4x ravenspam lists to do quite well especially with a near unkillable character behind them. Place guilliman or Celestine and retinue behind them and they are immune to shooting since you can not target a character of his unit and they are good assault units that are extreme hard to kill regardless. No matter what you choose your still wasting a lot of shots. So the point of this thread still has merit even if you see less ravenspam or reduced numbers.
It is a very good start and the fact GW has done something so quickly is also a good sign. I guess we will now have to wait and see Tournament results once TO take these news FAQs into account. You are right though in that the firepower has not changed, however not being scoring units will mean you have to invest points previously spent on that 4th or 5th Storm Raven into something else.
we can expect GW nerf them more if needed... at least this is a good sign and maybe it can sends some strong signals to wild spammers, buy ur expensive models then a day ur costly list will crumble in pieces.... evil grin...
gungo wrote: To be fair we will still likely see 2-3 stormraven lists fairly common and counters are still needed.
Isn't that kind of okay though? Stormravens aren't broken in smaller numbers. It is when five of them are maneuvering around that they get out of hand.
People might actually need to take some anti-air support.
They are still tough to take down for thier cost and will be common enough still
Also I still fully expect 4x ravenspam lists to do quite well especially with a near unkillable character behind them. Place guilliman or Celestine and retinue behind them and they are immune to shooting since you can not target a character of his unit and they are good assault units that are extreme hard to kill regardless. No matter what you choose your still wasting a lot of shots. So the point of this thread still has merit even if you see less ravenspam or reduced numbers.
They are tough, but dedicated anti-air takes them down fairly quick. Now that said anti-air isn't worthless against ground targets, it isn't like taking them is a waste of points anymore.
Ecdain wrote: Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.
Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.
Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.
Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?
Aetaos'rau'keres
Changeling
4 x Tzheralds on discs w/ staff
2 x Tzheralds on foot w/ staff
2 x giant chaos spawn(marked tzeentch)
8 x units of horrors (1 blue + 9 brimstone)
1714/2000 leaving 284 reinforcement points
I started aetaos'rau'keres back to be in range it only two of he Ravens, of which he took 7 wounds(through changeling-1 to hit aura and his 3++ save) along with killing 3 full units of brimstones and heavily hurting another (again praise the changeling aura).
My turn I moved 2 heralds to be close to one raven that came close(the rest were already in range) and aetaos'rau'keres move into assault range of the other(he has 20" movement), used heralds that didn't move to ritual in 3 E flamers. shot aetaos' gun at one of he further away Ravens (assault 2d6 s9 ap-4 damage 3 with a 2+ bs), got 10 shots, 6 got through for 18 wounds to kill one. Heralds and flamers got there target at 3 wounds left. Aetaos charged raven he moved towards and hit 5/6 times with his 2+ ws, wounded 4 times for s16 ap-4 damage 6(3 v anything not a vehicle, monster, or building) and aetaos killed his second raven that turn
The next turn I killed the other 2 and he conceded.
Not every game goes that well for me but I feel my chances are pretty decent.
Any questions about the list feel free to ask. I'm quite proud of it (even though the spawn do.nothing in this match up xD)
Also yes I he FAQ makes the list much easier to deal with now xD
Chrysen wrote: There is nothing wrong or imbalanced about the storm raven. There is everything wrong with the flier formations. Limited to 2 fliers total, its fine. Beyond that it just gets stupid. The flyer formations need more limits
I don't agree with that for two reasons:
1. No other flyer being spammed via the flyer detachment has been a problem.
2. Even if you put restrictions on the flyer detachment, people can still spam Stormravens via the auxilery detachment.
The problem is the flyer not the detachment.
Storm ravens ravens are the best fliers, but if you hypothetically nerfed only the storm raven, then you'd have hemlock wraith fighter spam instead
I also agree about the flyers detachment being the issue. If you face a list with 1-2 stormravens you won't have problems as you may face a tough list but not something invincible. 4-5 of them can be impossibile to defeat for several armies.
Like in 7th edition when riptides were hated, it was actually the formation and the possibility of having 3-5 big robots that made them overpowered, the single model was ok. Strong but ok. Same for the current stormravens, they're are very good but units like those ones are not supposed to be spammed. 3 dark eldar flyers are nasty as well for example, not effective like stormravens but still pretty unfair to play against.
I still think that GW should allow only 1 flyer per 1000 points and get rid of that silly detachment. In games under 3000 points at least.
So we normally play 2000 points so you have a reference point. At a recent tournament someone brought the all flyer list with knight back up and conscripts to hold objectives. As mechanicum I took the following (dumbed down to fit in dakka):
Belisarious (for this event delicious rerolls)
2x data smiths
2x castellans with fist and combuster
2x castellans with fist and combuster
2x castellans with 3x blasters
2x castellans with 3x blasters
2x onagers with neutron lasers
Knight with thermal cannon
Ialmost tables him in the tournament. Now a big thing is I won the roll off to go first (ITC rules where person who finished dropping gets +1 to roll to go first) and the onagers by themselves managed to down a plane in the first turn (terrain was LOS blocking so no looking through windows unless your in the terrain so I could only see 1). He did do some
Fire to the castellans but with aegis protocol up and have a 4+ invul (with 5-6+ bouncing back mortal wounds) and shroudpsalm his shooting was somewhat ineffectual. Now that he was in range of my double shooting phosphor blasters and combusters - I just rolled them up with dakka while the knight ran interference with the other knight.
I think if you have something that can wound them on a 5+ with many shots and a rend you can negate them. Heavy bolters (my friend has those rolling quad bolter squads) will shred them with prescience.
Now if your not liking the spam to beat spam method yeah that a stupid thing about this edition but until they fix it meh nothing we could do
They are exceptionally strong for the points - that is the cause of the problem.
That is just exacerbated because now it is easier to take a bunch of them.
People don't spam bad or balanced units usually - otherwise we not call it spam.
The flyer is amazing for the points - hence maximizing the benefit of that capability. Can you deal with one or maybe two? that does not change the fact they are amazing.
Some units need tuning - hence, why we see stormraven spam being a thing, and not doom scythe spam.
Storm ravens ravens are the best fliers, but if you hypothetically nerfed only the storm raven, then you'd have hemlock wraith fighter spam instead
Agreed - then that is a sign they need to adjust those as well. note: I did not say "nerf into oblivion" (which happened to the riptide) - adjust.
Kudos to GW for addressing it - but maybe, just maybe they should have looked at WHY people were choosing those specific units (I play marines, and have to admit the new rules have made me consider building extra flyers....they are indeed amazing).
I think it is a extremely agile fix by GW, to the rules of deployment and instant death.
Yes those units are strong but they can now cost you the game and give the opponent a viable alternate win condition.
Yes of course a player may (and is now forced to) field a hard resilient unit, its all relative as points spent on flyers isn't points spent on board staying power.
Ecdain wrote: Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.
Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.
Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.
Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?
Aetaos'rau'keres
Changeling
4 x Tzheralds on discs w/ staff
2 x Tzheralds on foot w/ staff
2 x giant chaos spawn(marked tzeentch)
8 x units of horrors (1 blue + 9 brimstone)
1714/2000 leaving 284 reinforcement points
I started aetaos'rau'keres back to be in range it only two of he Ravens, of which he took 7 wounds(through changeling-1 to hit aura and his 3++ save) along with killing 3 full units of brimstones and heavily hurting another (again praise the changeling aura).
My turn I moved 2 heralds to be close to one raven that came close(the rest were already in range) and aetaos'rau'keres move into assault range of the other(he has 20" movement), used heralds that didn't move to ritual in 3 E flamers. shot aetaos' gun at one of he further away Ravens (assault 2d6 s9 ap-4 damage 3 with a 2+ bs), got 10 shots, 6 got through for 18 wounds to kill one. Heralds and flamers got there target at 3 wounds left. Aetaos charged raven he moved towards and hit 5/6 times with his 2+ ws, wounded 4 times for s16 ap-4 damage 6(3 v anything not a vehicle, monster, or building) and aetaos killed his second raven that turn
The next turn I killed the other 2 and he conceded.
Not every game goes that well for me but I feel my chances are pretty decent.
Any questions about the list feel free to ask. I'm quite proud of it (even though the spawn do.nothing in this match up xD)
Also yes I he FAQ makes the list much easier to deal with now xD
Beautiful.
Unfortunately, Aetaos is literally the only above average answer Chaos has to storm raven heavy armies - which I believe will still stick around. The next best things would be DPs, but storm ravens are too fast and can easily out-maneuver DPs and single them out. But as far as Aetaos goes, he will single handedly take down an entire army of storm ravens by himself. That coupled with him being able to one shot a knight reliably and being impossible to kill, is making him an auto-include in almost every list I make.
Why the summon points? What do you end up summoning? How does that go in acutal games?
Ecdain wrote: Idk about other armies but i've beaten Raven spam(mind you he runs 4 not 5 but still counts I think) twice using my tzeentch daemons. Aetaos'rau'keres killed two in one turn the last game. He has beaten my list to be fair. The match pretty much comes down to who goes first and how well I can make 3++'s. Overall I feel good about the match up though.
Another note is E. Flamers aren't a counter but they can help chip in fairly easily with their mini lascannnons.
Read first post again and realize OP doesn't play daemons xD my bad for being unhelpful.
Whats your list and how has Aetaos done againt stormravens?
Aetaos'rau'keres
Changeling
4 x Tzheralds on discs w/ staff
2 x Tzheralds on foot w/ staff
2 x giant chaos spawn(marked tzeentch)
8 x units of horrors (1 blue + 9 brimstone)
1714/2000 leaving 284 reinforcement points
I started aetaos'rau'keres back to be in range it only two of he Ravens, of which he took 7 wounds(through changeling-1 to hit aura and his 3++ save) along with killing 3 full units of brimstones and heavily hurting another (again praise the changeling aura).
My turn I moved 2 heralds to be close to one raven that came close(the rest were already in range) and aetaos'rau'keres move into assault range of the other(he has 20" movement), used heralds that didn't move to ritual in 3 E flamers. shot aetaos' gun at one of he further away Ravens (assault 2d6 s9 ap-4 damage 3 with a 2+ bs), got 10 shots, 6 got through for 18 wounds to kill one. Heralds and flamers got there target at 3 wounds left. Aetaos charged raven he moved towards and hit 5/6 times with his 2+ ws, wounded 4 times for s16 ap-4 damage 6(3 v anything not a vehicle, monster, or building) and aetaos killed his second raven that turn
The next turn I killed the other 2 and he conceded.
Not every game goes that well for me but I feel my chances are pretty decent.
Any questions about the list feel free to ask. I'm quite proud of it (even though the spawn do.nothing in this match up xD)
Also yes I he FAQ makes the list much easier to deal with now xD
Beautiful.
Unfortunately, Aetaos is literally the only above average answer Chaos has to storm raven heavy armies - which I believe will still stick around. The next best things would be DPs, but storm ravens are too fast and can easily out-maneuver DPs and single them out. But as far as Aetaos goes, he will single handedly take down an entire army of storm ravens by himself. That coupled with him being able to one shot a knight reliably and being impossible to kill, is making him an auto-include in almost every list I make.
Why the summon points? What do you end up summoning? How does that go in acutal games?
I actually get that question a lot and the simple answer is it wins me games.
The longer winded version is that I play literally every race at my local store(well over 20 regular players and no small amount of waac among them, myself included of course) and I need to deal with everything. With my army I nearly always go second so I must be careful with having random units available to shoot(such as flamers), the seemingly best answer here is run E. Flamers. They are characters so they hide, have massive mobility, and have either flamers or mini lascannnons to deal with either horde/elite. But I dislike that they get -1 to hit for one of those weapons(which happens to be a fairly limited 18" range) when they move(ritual them in 12" from summoner for basically a move without the -1 to hit when they come in). And then there are times you just wish you had that one perfect unit for the job(more heralds, flamers, E. Flamers, etc.).
Now what that 284 actually looks like is a LOT of options.
If I need anti horde or gauranteed hits I can summon ten flamers
If I need anti elites/vehicles 4 E. Flamers are great
If I need more pysker bubble I get three heralds and another squad of horrors (17 of them)
These were just the initial plan, than tonight an interesting situation came up where his turn one his snipers got changeling(very sad). I than summoned another changeling (we couldn't find anywhere that didn't let me, you can only have one in your list but reinforcement aren't part of your listed... List.. xD), two E flamers and squad of 20 brimstones.
TL;DR
E. Flamers would be easier yes, but there are situations that require more niche or redundant units and I like to be prepared.
So far this exact version of the list is 11/12 for games so I'm pretty happy with the option. It's made the difference in a fair number of matches being able to bring in the right units.
P.S. if you're interested my buddy's list tonight was 2 storm ravens, 10 snipers w/telion beside them, 2 tac squads with missile launchers, gully +3 twin autocannon razorbacks, and 2 culexus(he brought them to spite me xD)
