Title says it all. Why the heck did GW bring back hardback codexes? Is anyone actually happy about that? I had several people excited to get back in at my FLGS only to immediately quit again the moment they heard GW is insisting on $50 hardback codexes. If they were comprehensive indexes I could maybe see it but when one of the first books spoiled was Death Guard it's blatantly clear that getting rules for anything more than a few armies will cost hundreds of dollars. I have a fairly small collection of IG, Lamenters, Black Templar, admech, orks, and Nids, and that means I will still need to spend roughly THREE HUNDRED DOLLARS just on books for my army.

Have they learned nothing? Surely many other players are upset about this.

I've heard that they're doing things similarly to battletomes, with softback option available after the initial hardback release, but I can't say that with certainty. $50 for a codex is pretty lame, but I prefer hardbacks to softback any day.

Ultimately, I'll be sticking to the digital release anyway.

I love this hobby. I don't know any other hobby where people spend thousands of dollars collecting six armies then complain about spending a fraction of their cost on a book.

It's like buying a console then complaining you need to spend money on the games.

Buy Digital and print it out.

Sim-Life wrote:
I love this hobby. I don't know any other hobby where people spend thousands of dollars collecting six armies then complain about spending a fraction of their cost on a book.

It's like buying a console then complaining you need to spend money on the games.

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:
I love this hobby. I don't know any other hobby where people spend thousands of dollars collecting six armies then complain about spending a fraction of their cost on a book.

It's like buying a console then complaining you need to spend money on the games.

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

I wish they had both. I'd buy a hardback for my main army and softbacks for my other armies.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

I'd rather the cheaper price of soft back, but hard back is sooooooo much nicer to feel and read oh my god

Softback, at a reasonable price - all day long. Probably won't even bother buying the Eldar codex if the price is anywhere near $50.

Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

I don't mind spending an extra 20 bucks for the hardback, considering how hard on books I tend to be. I'd certainly want them to be an option, I only had traitor legion for less than a year and it's already a bit beat up

Hardback for the armies you collect, digital for any others. Seems ok to me......the books are the cheap part after all.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

Monopoly = Able to charge. What you gonna do, not buy the rules for your army?


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 Sqorgar wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Pretty sure GW still eclipse those "competitors" by orders of magnitude. X-Wing doesn't count because it's a) A totally different style of game and b) Star Wars fanboys will buy any old gak.

I prefer spiralbound.

But the hard back versus softback isn't actually a significant cost for them, but it permits them to justify charging an exorbitant amount of money for a relatively small book.

I'm pretty sure they just copied the college textbook industry for this whole deal.

I'm spanish so I only have Softbacks

 argonak wrote:
I prefer spiralbound.

But the hard back versus softback isn't actually a significant cost for them, but it permits them to justify charging an exorbitant amount of money for a relatively small book.

I'm pretty sure they just copied the college textbook industry for this whole deal.

Back in 5th I took the Assault on Black Reach rulebook, sliced the spine off, laminated each page and spiral bound it. Was good times.

Ehh, not much has changed since 3rd ed, You still don't need the codex's, so many won't buy them no matter what.

My issue is simple:

GW rarely puts out a solid, quality book which isn't rife with errors, things which need to be FAQ'ed etc. GW have stated they'll be doing Chapter Approved (likely on a yearly basis) which will probably add and adjust units. The fluff and art hasn't been very good outside of Forgeworld books for quite some time. The book, outside of the size and the quality of its paper isn't particularly worth $50. It's likely going to be out-dated shortly. It's not a good long term investment. The Space Marine codex is even more odd - because it's horribly obvious Primaris marines will be getting models/units later. There may be a break after the codex releases, but Primaris are the new marine hotness.

So your $50 book will include stats for maybe half or less of your units within a year or two. You'll have paper slips and print outs from model kits for your other units (or an additional Chapter Approved book at extra cost).

GW has indicated a desire for 8th to be a living ruleset approach - if that's the case the codices need to be cheap and disposable softback books. A book you won't be afraid to write in, jot down, stuff papers into etc. If I was more confident in GW's quality of writing, rules, or longevity of products I think I could be more enticed by a hardback rulebook. As it stands, it'll be a poor investment.

Hardbacks, even if they cost more, since they age way better than softbacks.

I never throw away my old armybooks or codeci, I collect them, and the hardbacks look more or less new despite some of them being several years old. The softbacks on the other hand... jeez.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Pretty sure GW still eclipse those "competitors" by orders of magnitude. X-Wing doesn't count because it's a) A totally different style of game and b) Star Wars fanboys will buy any old gak.

I guess we should throw out Star Trek: Attack Wing, Wings of War, and Star Wars: Armada as well? Can't do Warmachine and Hordes either. Or Malifaux, Infinity, Walking Dead, Guild Ball, Kings of War, Bolt Action, Flames of War, Dark Ages, Kings of War, Song of Ice and Fire, or Rune Wars. Surely, the increased competition from the board game market with stuff like Zombicide, Imperial Assault, Shadows of Brimstone, Rum and Bones, and stuff like that isn't actual competition for the same market that GW operates in (especially if you ignore GW's board games like Talisman, Space Hulk, Assassinorum, Warhammer Quest, and so on).

So... yeah, I guess if you ignore all of GW's direct and obvious competitors, then GW is completely alone in the marketplace and has monopolistic power over gamers.

Look, the simple fact is, GW can get away with charging as much money as it does because enough people are willing to pay it. Nobody is forcing them. Nobody is being exploited. Nobody is backed into a corner. Miniature games are a luxury that is the very definition of optional, and GW has ample competition for people who want cheaper, better games with high quality miniatures.

What GW does have is a monopoly on is its own product. As in, if you want to own a GW product, you have to pay what GW charges (or 75%-85% of it through most online stores). But that's not actually a monopoly. That's just selling a product. It's the cornerstone of capitalism. (and if you have a problem with capitalism, well, there are miniature game options for that as well).

not thrilled with it tbh. You just shelled out money for indexes, now they want a crap ton more for a codex that will replace said index. I knew they were coming.....but 10 before end of year? Ridiculous. I'll just look for leaks online and keep the indexes. If one particular one blows me away, maybe I'll get it, but not holding my breath.

I used to think of my books as collections, but not anymore. Give me cheaper, soft back, or ideally spiral bound books and I'll buy more of them than a crazy priced hardback book that I'll never open again in a few years anyway.

Having had a few softbacks, I prefer hardback. The pages fall out less often, and it survives being stowed away in a bag for travelling better. Higher prices suck, but they'd have done the same with an all-softback release anyway.

Sell me hardback faction books with gathering storm length stories, painting guide, and misc interesting things. And then a softcover unit book with points and rules for the army.

I don't mind the price, but I'd prefer something simple and physical to use when playing the game.

This would also allow them the update the physical rules book with less issues and price.

I'll have to see how much the prize-difference between the two will be. And if they release both in German. But I'd say generally its softback for me, as it's easier to transport and handle.

If they were softbacks and affordable we might have bought some of the codex. As it is we'll stick to the Indexes.

I prefer hardback.

I prefer lower prices.

Bit grumbly that I might get less use out of the indexes than I had thought, but not exactly surprised either.

Maybe also the time to go digital - also running out of space...

I really wanted hardbacks for 6th/7th, too bad the rules turned out be such crap :(. Won't be making that mistake with 8th, will use the indexes as long as I can, though I might garner a peek at the 8E Tyranid softbound codex (*sigh* and maybe Tau, if it has any new decent models when it comes out).

I suspect a few months after each hardbound is out, there'll be a softbound version. Sort of like how novels (used to?) come out in hardback and later softbound volumes.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Title says it all. Why the heck did GW bring back hardback codexes? Is anyone actually happy about that?.

Yeah I am happy

Hardback FTW.

and for all you else

With the indexes, you get to wait out the hardback, and get the softback when it appears.
We aren't in the same situation that 6th and 7th went through with hardbacks.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Pretty sure GW still eclipse those "competitors" by orders of magnitude. X-Wing doesn't count because it's a) A totally different style of game and b) Star Wars fanboys will buy any old gak.

X-Wing absolutely counts, it has taken a decent chunk of GW's marketshare. Go into any X-Wing group/page and ask how many used to play 40k, you'll be surprised how many raise a hand. Many of the painters especially are ex 40k players who were looking for a more balanced game. I'm not going to comment about X-Wing's balance nowadays but you would be insane to not consider them a competitor. I just lost several potential players coming back to 40k today from the local X-Wing group because they saw the $50 codexes and backed right off. Some of these guys have mothballed collections in the 10,000-15,000pts range.

But let's ignore X-Wing, after all it doesn't sell rulebooks so it's not a great comparison. Instead, let's check out two other big names that I'm familiar with, Bolt Action and Dropzone Commander. Both are good games, produce quality content, and most importantly, sell a base ruleset and "codexes" aka armybooks.

Bolt Action's hardback rulebook, which also includes 5 army lists, campaign ideas, scenarios, and high quality construction, is $40 dollars American, before typical 20% online discount. So that right off the bat is $15 cheaper roughly. Then we go to the army books and campaign books, which are $25-$30 softback. Here GW was doing great. They released the indexes as pretty nice quality (and in the case of Imperium 1, surprisingly thick) books that was absolutely competitive with the competition. Even if these indexes had only included one army apiece, the sheer amount of content, layout, and quality would have won a lot of skeptical players back. Instead, we're going back to hardback codexes at double the price, so GW loses here quite decisively. Let's not forget that for the past several years little to no new fluff has been released in the codexes at all (other than faction names changing), painting diagrams have disappeared, scenario and campaign ideas have been stripped, and unit options have generally dropped or been outright deleted. So in a straight comparison of books, GW loses quite badly to Bolt Action from an objective standpoint. This isn't an opinion piece, you can look at any GW codex in recent memory and absolutely state that you are getting less in the book compared to competitors, and yet paying close to double for it. This is a huge issue for winning back old players who HAVE tried other games. Yes, Bolt Action is not 40k, but when I've been playing Bolt Action for 3 years because 40k 7th edition was garbage, I'm going to notice that 8th edition's codex prices are stupid, especially if I need to buy books for multiple armies. This is the issue I'm running into trying to win back old players. They were really excited when all they needed was $25-$75 in indexes to update their armies, only to have the rug pulled out when they find out that individual codexes will cost double that. Heck some of the space marine players in my area hadn't even had a chance to use their index before preorders popped up for the codex!

Now let's go for a different take on the army book idea, Dropzone Commander. Dropzone is interesting in that your rulebook contains the main rules for the big 4 armies in the game, with books being released every so often that update all the armies at once as well as add new ones (such as Reconquest Phase 1 adding the Resistance) In this instance, you're getting updates for all armies at the same time as well as campaign ideas, new lore (and quite a bit of it) as well as new units and rebalancing of older units. These books are, again, in softback for around $25 dollars. These are still excellent quality books crammed with content, art, rules, lore, and various other goodies. This again, destroys the GW $50 hardback codexes on pretty much every level. Yet the books are still full color, 2-300 pages, filled with excellent artwork, photos, and plenty of diagrams. Granted, you're talking only 5 armies or so in DZC, but that is still a big deal.

Now, we get to the final point of contention. "Well GW books are higher quality because they're hardback, they last longer and hold up better." But do they really though? We all know that anything GW makes will require a day 1 FAQ, so why on earth are you wanting to drop $50 on a hardback that will immediately have errata day one? This was why people were excited to see $25 indexes. Yes, it still sucks that we'll need day 1 FAQ's, but with a $25 index covering multiple factions its a much easier pill to swallow. It's not a big deal that I need to update a softback because they're incredibly easy to get spiralbound and update over time. They even condensed points and unit profiles onto 2-4 pages per army so they'd be easy to replace! That was perfect! Why on earth would you screw that up by going back to a hardback, especially when you're marketing the game as a "living ruleset" and implying that this is the last edition 40k will ever need? There are so many former players on the fence about 40k right now who are dipping their toes back in and giving it a look. These players are absolutely necessary because they're helping to jumpstart new groups with the rise of 8th. For every new player I've gotten in my store, we've had another who is an old player dusting off an army. These old players are a wealth of hobby info, lore, and just general additional blood that is vital to getting momentum back into this game. Ticking them off by essentially saying "no, we haven't changed, we're still extorting you for books, have fun" is going to immediately ruin all of that, and it is absolutely going to happen.


TL;DR: What I'm trying to say is that if GW nailed the codexes every time on the first try and they were the only company in the industry, MAYBE I could see an argument to $50 hardback codexes. However they don't, and they aren't, so it's pretty ridiculous that they're still making these same mistakes. Competitors, and yes, these games do compete with 40k, have been releasing comparable quality at 2/3rd's to 1/2 the price for their books for years now. It is inexcusable that GW is still insisting on hardbacks with no softback alternative. This is the kind of thing that encourages people to pirate codexes or just get by on whatever rules they've got off of battlescribe, and it ultimately hurts the game in the long run. It discourages old players from buying back in, gives sticker shock to new players, and punishes players for picking up multiple armies. If GW is going to say they're the best in the business, they need to act like it, and they should absolutely be held accountable for making such a stupid mistake again. They had it down pretty well too! The softback indexes were very competitively priced and even the hardback rulebook wasn't too bad considering it comes with the starter set. I don't have any issue with hardbacks being an option for collectors, heck if they actually had something new in the books like lore and artwork I'd actually consider it for my main army, but as is there is no justification for releasing these books as anything other than softcovers.

Not everyone who is looking to get into wargaming is dead set on 40k. Some do want to play specifically 40k for the lore and models, but you'll be surprised how many would just as soon play another game if given the choice. For this latter group, pricing and quality absolutely matters, and if GW doesn't learn from their mistakes, they'll just be repeating 7th all over again. This is why I'm mad that GW is insisting on hardback codexes again. I've put a ton of work into rebuilding the local 40k group and GW is actively sabotaging my attempts to bring in returning players as well as new ones.

/slightly drunk 3am rant.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

Monopoly = Able to charge. What you gonna do, not buy the rules for your army?

Er, that's clearly not what a monopoly is. The existence of other companies selling science fiction wargames is evidence of that. Of course Games Workshop are the only people selling Games Workshop-branded games, but that's no more a monopoly than saying Ford have a monopoly because no-one else sells Mondeos.

If you don't want to spend the extra on a hard back, then wait until the softback is out and buy it instead.

Since im only playing one army i very much look forward to a good looking hardcover codex.

I can understand the issue for those with several armies though, stats should be free as in AoS

50... Each.

I have a index I aiant got the most fancy codex and such, with fanciest stuff.

But I can play with my 30 quids in books fine.

I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Because GW is a horrible company. Obviously.

Boycott them.

 Traditio wrote:
Because GW is a horrible company. Obviously.

Boycott them.

Reported for spam. Doing this all across a 40k forum is not helping. It does not contribute, it does not add.

I like the hardcover books. They're shiny. I'm a sucker for those nice, textured covers, and they look so much nicer on the shelf.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

I prefer hardback books period for any book that I get.

I don't penny pinch to such extremes that the extra $15-$20 enrages me.

The incessant whining about how GW costs more than other companies got old about a decade ago. Yes. GW costs more than the other companies. GW is in no way, shape, or form required to keep their prices in line with tinier companies. If you don't like that, then play the other companies' games. If one's first worry is about how much it costs, then GW is definitely not right for them. The fact that GW has tripled their stock price recently says that they will be fine without trying to cater to everybody.

It was said in 2004 after all that GW was going to die any day now due to their high price point.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Hardbacks, even if they cost more, since they age way better than softbacks.

I never throw away my old armybooks or codeci, I collect them, and the hardbacks look more or less new despite some of them being several years old. The softbacks on the other hand... jeez.

I've had the opposite experience to that, I've kept all of my Chaos Codeces but the one in the worst nick is my 6/7th ed Hardback chaos book. Maybe it's because it's the book I've used for the longest and I was more active in 7th ed than 3-6th but the back statlines page has fallen out and the back of the book is feeling very flimsy. :(

Also, hardback books I've found are more difficult and cumbersome to transport/carry to games. Though, I must admit, I good hardback book certainly feels better to read.

I will be getting them digital. I would buy the books but the only way I would want that is if codexes came in 2 book packs one with thte fluff antrtwork and painting information so that I could read and enjoy that book at home and then a second much thinner rules book preferably the size of the old mini rulebooks. so they easily tuck into a pocket or army case and are less intrusive on/around the table. bonus points if it were spiral bound so it would lay flat. currently I just get the digital ones and print/format my own small rulebooks like this and love them/ constantly get comments about how people wish gw would do this

Hardbacks are harder wearing I find, and less prone to page floppage when left open for consultation during a game.

The binding is better, and they're of course less prone to being squished and ripped during transportation.

Plus, they look ded snazzy when on bookshelf display.

But most of all? I'm looking forward to not needing four separate books, not including the rulebook, just to field my mixed mechanicus of 7th ed (Cult Mechanicus, Skitarii, Imperial Knights and the Forgeworld Mechanicum for the Ordinatus).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 auticus wrote:
I prefer hardback books period for any book that I get.

I don't penny pinch to such extremes that the extra $15-$20 enrages me.

The incessant whining about how GW costs more than other companies got old about a decade ago. Yes. GW costs more than the other companies. GW is in no way, shape, or form required to keep their prices in line with tinier companies. If you don't like that, then play the other companies' games. If one's first worry is about how much it costs, then GW is definitely not right for them. The fact that GW has tripled their stock price recently says that they will be fine without trying to cater to everybody.

It was said in 2004 after all that GW was going to die any day now due to their high price point.

And 2005. And 2006. And 2007. And 2008. And 2009. And 2010. And 2011. And 2012. And 2013. And 2014. And 2015. And 2016. In fact, come to think of it, that claim has been made regularly ever since I joined Portent way back in 1998ish....

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

Meh. I have enough models that I can play against myself.

that claim has been made regularly ever since I joined Portent way back in 1998ish....

I miss Portent. I was on there from the beginning as well. And yes it was brought up as far back as the late 90s as well.

I remember two distinct rage posts on portent.

Skeleton warriors getting plastics and being $20 for a box (this was price gouging, $1 for a plastic model was absurd) and the 2000 Land Raider debut for $45 (which devolved into a rage thread about how model companies like Tamiya produced M1 Abrams kits for roughly the same price point but were more detailed and GW was just price gouging)

It wasn't until privateer released warmachine (the GW killer) that the "they are going to die any day due to their price point" was a regular mantra.

And we saw what Privateer did once they got big

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

Meh. I have enough models that I can play against myself.

I honestly think very very few people would refuse to play against you. I also think you'll see some tasty rules in your codex and cave in.

Sim-Life wrote:
I love this hobby. I don't know any other hobby where people spend thousands of dollars collecting six armies then complain about spending a fraction of their cost on a book.

It's like buying a console then complaining you need to spend money on the games.

I don't think anyone minds paying 50$ for a rulebook.

But in 7th edition the rules of the game were spread all over 50 different 50$ rulebooks, and in order to play a game between two opponents you would need to have access to, and be familiar with, half a dozen of those books. This was very cumbersome, unsatisfying and expensive. It also made the threshold of entry into the game very high. People don't want that back.


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 BaconCatBug wrote:
Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

But they don't have a monopoly. There are other games out there.

 jhe90 wrote:
50... Each.

I have a index I aiant got the most fancy codex and such, with fanciest stuff.

But I can play with my 30 quids in books fine.

50 dollars. Poor yanks.


Im not bothered to be fair. Its just a book. New marine dex is only 30 quid. Take 20% off and its an instant buy

D-I-G-I-T-A-L

It costs a fortune to make both paperback and hardback. It should not be a surprise they start with Hardback then digital.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

 Sqorgar wrote:
You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Well wargames seem to be a rather inelastic market (where consumers don't really change thier behavior too much when the price shifts), and when you have that combined with as much market share as GW has, it may as well be a monopoly. Plus there's also the sunk cost fallacy almost all wargamers fall into, where you talk yourself into buying more gak from GW because you've already got thousands of dollars worth of GW gak. And if you decide to change games, there's this perception that all that money spent would be wasted. This makes it players who've spent a lot on GW gak feel like GW is the only option, creating a very strong perception of a monopoly, even if it isn't 100% accurate

I used to think of my books as collections, but not anymore. Give me cheaper, soft back, or ideally spiral bound books and I'll buy more of them than a crazy priced hardback book that I'll never open again in a few years anyway.

Pretty much this. Or a digital version.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

You make the tournament functionality and data collection sound like a bad thing (unless by bad thing, you mean Corvus Belli is collecting personal data rather than popularity of certain units/playstyles).

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

You make the tournament functionality and data collection sound like a bad thing (unless by bad thing, you mean Corvus Belli is collecting personal data rather than popularity of certain units/playstyles).

The point.
You've missed it.
They have a vested interest in keeping the Army Builder running and constantly updated. The guy who's in charge of it("V") started doing it as a fan project and was later hired by CB to run it full-time.

As it stands, they've said they use the Army Builder as a kind of "market research" keeping tabs on units that get put in there to decide what to produce next. But even with that said, it's worth noting that another key reason they do this?

They aren't a big enough company to jump queues at printers.

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

Hardback is too expensive. I like printed books much more than the digital versions. Flipping back and forth.

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

They tried that for AOS with free rules for a little while.

Turned out no one wanted to buy the book at all if the rules were free.

Pretty poor way for a company to stay in business. Turned out the vast majority of their market were this:

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

So... if they are going to give the option between cheap and hardback, they might as well never do hardback again. And if they gave the option between just the rules with no fluff or anything else and the army books as we know them, they might as well not ever produce army books with anything other than rules.

I like the hardback books, and being a D&D player, I'm used to it.

However, for the codexes, I don't mind having soft cover books. I like the hardbacks, but I'd rather save $20 or $30, as long as they're as nice as the Indexes.

I want the rules, and nothing but the rules. I'll buy a faction book with art and fluff for the one or two factions I care about if given the option, but otherwise, I'd appreciate having the offer to buy cheap rules.

They'd actually make more money from me that way. Funny how that works.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

You mean the wiki that only just recently got brought up to N3? That for something like two years was still the old rules?

Yeah. The Infinity Army thing is nice and all, but there's a reason it's free. They built Infinity Tournament System functionality into it and they use it for data collection purposes.

You make the tournament functionality and data collection sound like a bad thing (unless by bad thing, you mean Corvus Belli is collecting personal data rather than popularity of certain units/playstyles).

The point.
You've missed it.
They have a vested interest in keeping the Army Builder running and constantly updated. The guy who's in charge of it("V") started doing it as a fan project and was later hired by CB to run it full-time.

As it stands, they've said they use the Army Builder as a kind of "market research" keeping tabs on units that get put in there to decide what to produce next. But even with that said, it's worth noting that another key reason they do this?

They aren't a big enough company to jump queues at printers.

No, I think I'm getting the general gist. They're small enough and not publically traded so they are thinking more in terms of "how won't we piss off our consumer base" rather than "how can we maximize our profit margins". Both are important, but the first can lead to the second, while the inverse is not necessarily true.

Searching in the ipad 40k rulebook is absolutely horrible, because of GWs insistence on putting lore in the rulebook. Try searching for "charges" and you get told of the great and glorious charges on the tyranid hordes by the Mary Sue regiment on Murderplanet.

 Purifier wrote:
Searching in the ipad 40k rulebook is absolutely horrible, because of GWs insistence on putting lore in the rulebook. Try searching for "charges" and you get told of the great and glorious charges on the tyranid hordes by the Mary Sue regiment on Murderplanet.

That's basically a description of every battle against the AI I've ever had in a DoW game

40k has never been smart or subtle. Or even consistent. But the one thing you can rely on: It's full of screaming maniacs charging at machineguns because chainsaws > bunkers.

auticus wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

They tried that for AOS with free rules for a little while.

Turned out no one wanted to buy the book at all if the rules were free.

Pretty poor way for a company to stay in business. Turned out the vast majority of their market were this:

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

So... if they are going to give the option between cheap and hardback, they might as well never do hardback again. And if they gave the option between just the rules with no fluff or anything else and the army books as we know them, they might as well not ever produce army books with anything other than rules.

I rather disagree that most people were "we'll pay more money for a book of rules than a digital version". I think that AoS failed because of how the free digital rules for AoS were somewhat crap and offered no balanced army construction other than "make the armies as big as you want" and "make up your own missions."

Simply put AoS' problem wasn't the fact that they were digital or free, but that they were either crap or incomplete.

 Purifier wrote:
Searching in the ipad 40k rulebook is absolutely horrible, because of GWs insistence on putting lore in the rulebook. Try searching for "charges" and you get told of the great and glorious charges on the tyranid hordes by the Mary Sue regiment on Murderplanet.

Rev up those cogitators and learn how to strip out pages from ebooks.

 Purifier wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

Meh. I have enough models that I can play against myself.

I honestly think very very few people would refuse to play against you. I also think you'll see some tasty rules in your codex and cave in.

You're probably right. I'll miss being able to field my entire army with only three books though. (Chaos for Fallen, Imperial 1 for Ultramarines and Space Wolves, Imperial 2 for Custodes, Inquisitors, and Sisters of Silence).

All the information in all Codex's are eventually free with Battlescribe updates.

 Tokhuah wrote:
All the information in all Codex's are eventually free with Battlescribe updates.

Remind me what Battlescribe is?

Softback. Cheaper and easier to store/carry.

 Selym wrote:
Remind me what Battlescribe is?

It's an app army builder. Works on both Apple and Android.

As for the topic... I will probably buy the hardcover. I wish it came with a digital copy as well but I realize that's not going to happen.

 Tokhuah wrote:
All the information in all Codex's are eventually free with Battlescribe updates.

But not always accurate updates. They are only as accurate as the assumptions of the person writing the file.

---------------------------------------------

On a less serious note, one advantage to hardback is that it is easier to "get the point across" with hardbacks due to their weight and rigidity. Much like the difference between the metal dreadnought and plastic when it comes to using a sock.

 Charistoph wrote:

auticus wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

They tried that for AOS with free rules for a little while.

Turned out no one wanted to buy the book at all if the rules were free.

Pretty poor way for a company to stay in business. Turned out the vast majority of their market were this:

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

So... if they are going to give the option between cheap and hardback, they might as well never do hardback again. And if they gave the option between just the rules with no fluff or anything else and the army books as we know them, they might as well not ever produce army books with anything other than rules.

I rather disagree that most people were "we'll pay more money for a book of rules than a digital version". I think that AoS failed because of how the free digital rules for AoS were somewhat crap and offered no balanced army construction other than "make the armies as big as you want" and "make up your own missions."

Simply put AoS' problem wasn't the fact that they were digital or free, but that they were either crap or incomplete.

Everyone I know literally said "why would I buy the hardback army book when the rules are free and the army book has nothing in it that I don't already have and I don't care about fluff."

To whit - when GW started putting rules in the army books (before GHB) people started complaining that the rules were no longer free and that they had to buy the book and that the rules should be free.

These were all people that were playing and enjoying AOS, not people that hated that AOS wasn't an esport.

 argonak wrote:
I I'm pretty sure they just copied the college textbook industry for this whole deal.

$50 is cheap for a college textbook, one of my postgrad texts was £175 ($280). Not one was less than £60 (~$100) :-) (And this was 25 years ago.)

heh I had a java book for a class that was $450.

 auticus wrote:

So... if they are going to give the option between cheap and hardback, they might as well never do hardback again. And if they gave the option between just the rules with no fluff or anything else and the army books as we know them, they might as well not ever produce army books with anything other than rules.

Nope. I stated my opinion; it appears that the vast majority of people in the GW ecosystem love all that fluff and other stuff that I can't be bothered with. I loved the idea of the indices due the lack of filler but alas they were a temporary placeholder. I'll continue to buy army books for the armies that I own and continue to photocopy the 10 pages that matter from each of them and let the books collect dust on a shelf.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
I think I'm just going to keep playing from my Indexes. I like the fact there are no real wargear options, just WYSIWYG, and everything is self explanatory.

Enjoy having everyone refusing to play you.

Playing indexes only is what I'm planning to do as well. I imagine we will not be alone, especially as many people will still have to wait for their codex to drop - quite possibly for a year or more.

 auticus wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

They tried that for AOS with free rules for a little while.

Turned out no one wanted to buy the book at all if the rules were free.

Well, if what Charistoph above said was true, sounds like the free rules were just taste-tests of the real rules, and they were free. I'm suggesting a limited print-run of hard-covers for the folks that do really care, but most people can download the rules at a cost for those that are price-conscious. There will always be people stuck inbetween (such as the responder who said they like books and not ebooks), but this method would likely increase profits for them while also more thoroughly satisfying the larger percentage of people. Because yeah, there's a large group of people that just want rules, no fluff. But the people that do like the fluff and the feel of a book in their hands will pay (even more of) a premium for that. They already do this with the collector's edition to some extent.

I think if we're just talking business value that this model:

Hardback fluff and rules: $50
Rules only 10-page pamphlet: $10

Is absolute failure on their part.

Anecdotal numbers and best guesses. Lets say... we have 1000 people who play warhammer.

Lets say based on polls, forums, etc that the number of people that care about fluff is 100. I'd say 10% is a good ballpark for the people I've known in my life that actually care about the narrative. The vast majority don't in my experience. This value cannot be hardcoded scientifically without a global poll but I think 10% is pretty close.

So 100 people buy the $50 book for the narrative. GW makes $5000 from them.

The other 900 buy the pamphlet for $10, so $9000 from those people for a total of $14,000 in sales.

Or ... GW just makes one version of the army book for $50.

1000 people spend $50 for a total of $50,000 in sales.

Now granted some of those 1000 people will go "i only care about rules, I'm not spending money on fluff, Eff you GW" and not buy anything.

Whats that number? Lets say its 25% of the 1000. I think thats a larger number than accurate but its an easy one.

750 people spend $50 for a total of $37,500.

Wargaming is very inelastic. $37,500 is still a lot more than $14,000 going with the $50 flat model. GW knows from AOS that a ton of people will just take the free rules or the rules-only version that costs a lot less.

And even with a percentage in people not playing out of principle, the $50 flat model is still going to net them double or more what they'd get if they did the gamer-friendly pamphlet on the cheap.

As a publicly traded company - that is what I would expect them to do. They'd be shooting themselves in the face if they offered the cheap pamphlet of just the rules even though that is what I'd say 9 out of 10 of their consumer base scream for, because a good chunk who complain bitterly about not caring about anything but rules will STILL buy the $50 book if thats all that is offered, and GW keeps a much nicer profit.

Digital-only - cheaper on the consumer. Also no cost to GW. Also a win-win for them.

Then there's the "if it were cheaper I'd buy MORE which would give GW more money so they are stupid". That is often not the case.

We can see in the $50 vs $10 model that said person would have to buy FIVE rules pamphlets to make up for ONE army book. I'm sure there are some people that would do this, but the vast majority of people I know would NOT do this.

This is a big gamble and a risk and one that if I were a stock holder would raise hell over if GW decided to try it out, because to pull the same profit as the $50 model they'd be banking on enough people buying a ton of pamphlets vs the inelastic knowledge that people will buy the books anyway.

The rules pamphlet would have to come up in price. Which would enrage the cost conscious even more. "ITS ONLY 10 PAGES WHY THE EFF ARE WE PAYING $20/$25/WHATEVER GW YOU ARE SCREWING US" would be the cry.

For my money I'd stick with the safe bet.

Well, they ARE doing that for the main rules; you can buy the $50 hardback, the $8 "start playing" softbound, or as in my case, pick up the free 8-page rule pamphlet/free download.

Would it work to split a codex out like that? I'm not sure. They tried something similar with knights in 6E (a rules + base fluff and an in-depth fluff codex) and that they didn't repeat it seems to indicate the model did very poorly. On the flip side, the indexes seem to have been really well recieved - but they generally were multi-army and weren't competing alongside existing indexes.

They might be able to get away with doing split rules/fluff books if there isn't an overlap or the all-in-one version is touted as a collector's or "expanded" version instead of "standard". <EDIT> After a moment to think, I believe the best split would be to do a Base book - with the basic lore and unit roster and core army rules, and an Expanded book, which does a deep delve into the lore, has the special strategms and other distinctive flavorful rules, and perhaps the rosters for the unique heroes. The main aim would be to ensure there was no overlap between the two books, and that the "expanded" book have any rules that aren't "necessary", but appealing/"nice to have"/"flavorful".

I think they will have much better luck with a hardbound/softbound release system - release the book in hardbound format, and then about two months later, drop the book as softbound. Early adopters can buy into the hardbound version, the more budget consious can wait for the softbound release to hit.

 auticus wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
Hardback is sexy. What they should do is have Hardbacks for people that like the book, and the downloads for a much lower cost for the price-conscious consumer.

They tried that for AOS with free rules for a little while.

Turned out no one wanted to buy the book at all if the rules were free.

Pretty poor way for a company to stay in business. Turned out the vast majority of their market were this:

I wish they just made the rules; I don't care about the fluff or painting guide or any other nonsense, I just want rules to play the game. For people like me it's paying $50 for 10 pages in a 150 page book.

So... if they are going to give the option between cheap and hardback, they might as well never do hardback again. And if they gave the option between just the rules with no fluff or anything else and the army books as we know them, they might as well not ever produce army books with anything other than rules.

I thought no one wanted to buy the books because Age of Sigmar was a terrible system when it first came out

auticus wrote:Everyone I know literally said "why would I buy the hardback army book when the rules are free and the army book has nothing in it that I don't already have and I don't care about fluff."

To whit - when GW started putting rules in the army books (before GHB) people started complaining that the rules were no longer free and that they had to buy the book and that the rules should be free.

These were all people that were playing and enjoying AOS, not people that hated that AOS wasn't an esport.

Having a complete ruleset is not an esport. It's only when the GHB came out that AoS became an avid interest to those who hadn't converted over to 9th Age.

The simple point is that if GW just wants to be a model company, their rules should be simple, clear, and free. They didn't fall under any of those until Age of Sigmar, and the only thing that AoS and DI have is simple. They sure aren't clear, and they aren't completely free.

Other companies want to sell models, but they also want to sell a game. How many Proposed Rules have considered converting 40K in to another current system like Gates of 40K or Boter Action? Why would they do that if they considered 40K rules to be any good. They aren't.

AoS had problems not because they charged for rules, but because they were crap and incomplete. That's it. It wasn't because they were free, because I had plenty of local people not having a problem with the cost, but the quality. That has been GW's problem for an incredibly long time. Their ability to write a quality game is pure crap. They can charge $400 a book or nothing, and the quality of the words within them will not have changed.

Well we have differing experiences then. The people I know that play AOS weren't going to buy any books that were not needed. They were fine with the free four pages and the default scenario.

It was only until GW decided to put things in the army book that you needed for matched play that people began reluctantly buying the books again.

The people that didn't buy AOS because it was "crap and not complete" are not the same people I'm talking about.

GW releasing free rules and then publishing hardback books hoping people will buy that anyway was a mistake on their part. If the rules exist for free or vastly cheaper, people by large and far are going to flock to that, because it would seem the vast majority of the players of GW games give little to no damns about the narrative and don't want to pay for anything but a thin pamphlet of rules for $10 or so.

For what it's worth, I left feedback on their facebook page to indicate that it would be in their interest to produce a softcover option on release, or they run the risk of pushing people back to the internet for rules or right out of the hobby again.

I'd like to support the new GW - I will not support the old GW antics.

I for one would love to have mini rulebook back, I don't need or want to bring the fluff with me to every game, I would like something similar for the Codex. A mini codex that's rules and points values for $20? I would buy the hardcover for home and the mini book to play with.

 auticus wrote:
Well we have differing experiences then. The people I know that play AOS weren't going to buy any books that were not needed. They were fine with the free four pages and the default scenario.

It was only until GW decided to put things in the army book that you needed for matched play that people began reluctantly buying the books again.

The people that didn't buy AOS because it was "crap and not complete" are not the same people I'm talking about.

GW releasing free rules and then publishing hardback books hoping people will buy that anyway was a mistake on their part. If the rules exist for free or vastly cheaper, people by large and far are going to flock to that, because it would seem the vast majority of the players of GW games give little to no damns about the narrative and don't want to pay for anything but a thin pamphlet of rules for $10 or so.

We probably do have different experiences. The people I know and the people who have posted on boards I have read, have stated that the GHB has everything that they felt was missing from AoS, aside from the general quality of rules.

The simple fact that people felt that they "needed" to buy the book in order to keep playing AoS demonstrates this concept. AoS is just as playable now as it was when it was launched without buying a single book. It is only when people want to have a coherent army building structure (i.e. points and FOC), missions, and "Formations" (I forget the name) that they need those books. This demonstrates how much was missing from the free rules that GW provided.

Given the fact that they have only just released the Indexes, and the fact that they're supposedly going to be doing an AoS type thing by releasing updated versions every couple of years, I would rather have the softback. Aside from that, my softback rule book from 7th is actually in better condition at this point than my hardback Blood Angels Codex.

I like hardback, but I would much prefer them come out with soft cover first then hard cover later. I prefer soft cover for lugging the books around because its lighter and holds up better getting beat around a backpack at work and the game store. I like having the hard backs on my bookshelf at home for eye candy, and toting around the house for quick fluff or rule checking.

As regards codexes, give me hardback any day and all the fluff possible, I love that stuff. The only issue I have is the BRB, it's huge, and there is no mini version, except for the core rules sheet, but I've already basically memorised them. I only check up for army and mission stuff, and it's not great trawling through the giant BRB. Bring back the small, softcover rule book that was basically just the rules and came in most 7th boxed sets. As for the whole 'You had to have 50 $50 books to play the game,' I never had that, it was just bring the codex, tau, guard or IK, or maybe 2 of them if I was running the IK or gue'vesa, plus the mini rule book and that was it, and that was basically all I saw other people doing as well.

 Charistoph wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Well we have differing experiences then. The people I know that play AOS weren't going to buy any books that were not needed. They were fine with the free four pages and the default scenario.

It was only until GW decided to put things in the army book that you needed for matched play that people began reluctantly buying the books again.

The people that didn't buy AOS because it was "crap and not complete" are not the same people I'm talking about.

GW releasing free rules and then publishing hardback books hoping people will buy that anyway was a mistake on their part. If the rules exist for free or vastly cheaper, people by large and far are going to flock to that, because it would seem the vast majority of the players of GW games give little to no damns about the narrative and don't want to pay for anything but a thin pamphlet of rules for $10 or so.

We probably do have different experiences. The people I know and the people who have posted on boards I have read, have stated that the GHB has everything that they felt was missing from AoS, aside from the general quality of rules.

The simple fact that people felt that they "needed" to buy the book in order to keep playing AoS demonstrates this concept. AoS is just as playable now as it was when it was launched without buying a single book. It is only when people want to have a coherent army building structure (i.e. points and FOC), missions, and "Formations" (I forget the name) that they need those books. This demonstrates how much was missing from the free rules that GW provided.

I think that we are talking about two different things.

I am specifically talking about the people that were playing AOS, and enjoying AOS, without the GHB. In pre-GHB days of AOS, no one wanted to buy the campaign books or army books (no one coming from the pool of people enjoying the game) because they weren't needed.

Then points came out and artefacts and special rules for the army, and people suddenly starting buying the books because they wanted those things and couldn't get them for free.

IF GW had made the points free, the artefacts free, etc ... I guarantee they would have continued not buying the books.

You are referencing people that werent playing AOS before GHB and are only playing nowt hat points are introduced, which is a different pool of people.

 auticus wrote:
I think that we are talking about two different things.

I am specifically talking about the people that were playing AOS, and enjoying AOS, without the GHB. In pre-GHB days of AOS, no one wanted to buy the campaign books or army books (no one coming from the pool of people enjoying the game) because they weren't needed.

Then points came out and artefacts and special rules for the army, and people suddenly starting buying the books because they wanted those things and couldn't get them for free.

IF GW had made the points free, the artefacts free, etc ... I guarantee they would have continued not buying the books.

You are referencing people that werent playing AOS before GHB and are only playing nowt hat points are introduced, which is a different pool of people.

We are and we aren't. The number of people I know who were playing AoS before the GHB came out was very small. The number of people who started playing AoS after the GHB came out is vastly larger. The reason for that is not the books themselves, but the completion of the rules which are provided in those books.

Besides that, you yourself stated before and just stated now that your pre-GHB group only felt they "needed" the books when the GHB came out and completed a defined army building process. Never mind that AoS is still just as officially playable in the same exact way without the GHB today as it was before the GHB was released.

And the point I have been trying to make has been that the people I know did not play AoS because they felt it was incomplete. GHB made it complete, but at the cost of buying books.

You were stating that people wanted the books, no matter the price, over a free digital format. I said that it is the exact opposite, that people would prefer free digital rules over rules in books, and you are now agreeing with me.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
I for one would love to have mini rulebook back, I don't need or want to bring the fluff with me to every game, I would like something similar for the Codex. A mini codex that's rules and points values for $20? I would buy the hardcover for home and the mini book to play with.

Yes this. I don't need to carry fluff with me to the game store.

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't need to carry fluff with me to the game store.

Sometimes its nice to have for bull sessions, but we don't need them on the table, that's for sure.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Rules on a Wiki and a free app. If they're a "models company" first, and Corvus Belli can do it...

Monopoly = Able to charge. What you gonna do, not buy the rules for your army?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sqorgar wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I don't get to build, paint, and customize my book.

It's also annoying when my other miniature war games have their books cost literally half what GW's do, such as bolt action and Dropzone commander.

Having a monopoly lets them get away with it.

You are responding to a post that proves that GW doesn't have a monopoly. Lots of people have left the GW ecosystem for cheaper alternatives. Other companies are producing similar products at a cheaper cost - but many people still prefer GW products regardless. It's not a monopoly that let's them get away with it. It's the popularity of their games, which I have to assume, is at least in some part due to a superior quality. Maybe they complain about the prices, but they still buy it. Therefore, the prices aren't too high. Just at the upper limit of almost too high.

Pretty sure GW still eclipse those "competitors" by orders of magnitude. X-Wing doesn't count because it's a) A totally different style of game and b) Star Wars fanboys will buy any old gak.

40k fanboys don't huh ?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Because GW is a horrible company. Obviously.

Boycott them.

Reported for spam. Doing this all across a 40k forum is not helping. It does not contribute, it does not add.

There is nothing wrong with saying ones opinion, why does it hurt or bother you that he criticizes a game about plastic soldiers ?

Because coloured and durable hardback codexes with gritty and beautiful artwork are nice and look pretty. Also Codexes arent just rules compendiums, they are full sourcebooks for fluff as well. As for having to spend so much on the books, you chose to buy so many small armies and you also can choose to buy them all at once or be sensible and buy them when you can afford them. They don't get ruined and dogearred after 5 trips to the club to play a game. They aren't going to get too badly damaged by a split drink and you can clean errant paint splashes off them with warm water. They look great, they feel great, and they are great. The only ungreat thing is the price but even then, I'd rather pay 50 for the hardback than 10 for Softback.

If you want to have your fingers in many pies, don't complain when the baker asks you to pay for them all.

You were stating that people wanted the books, no matter the price, over a free digital format. I said that it is the exact opposite, that people would prefer free digital rules over rules in books, and you are now agreeing with me.

Then there was a massive misunderstanding. I didn't ever think people wanted the books no matter the price. Quite the opposite. People DONT want extra books and DONT want to pay for rules if they can get them for free.

People were buying the books only because the extra rules were in there that they couldn't get for free, and only were begrudgingly buying the books.

That stems from my first statement which was that a giant chunk of people would prefer a rules pamphlet for $5-$10 and hate having to buy hardback books for narrative and art that they don't care about. Something along the lines of having the rules free and then having optional books for people that want the narrative. My first statement was in response to that where GW learned their lesson from AOS. If they give the rules for free, the vast majority of people will not ever buy a book if they don't have to.

You make it sound like a bad thing people want the rules for free and that we should want to give GW the most amount of money for a product we may not even want.

The rest of the industry has shifted to either free rules, or much cheaper rules, and all those companies are doing fine. There is literally no reason we should be praising or defending GW's decision to sell expensive hardback books, often filled with gak fluff, poor art work, and frankly, low quality rules.

I'd never thought I'd see someone revolt against the idea of free/cheaper stuff.

What I said was pretty neutral actually. All I said was that for a business, offering free rules and then trying to sell hardback rule books would be a huge mistake because very few would actually buy those books if they could get the rules for free.

As to revolting against the idea of free/cheaper stuff, I understand that in business nothing is free. I look at the companies that offer free/cheaper stuff on the whole and am not impressed with the quality of their offerings. You get what you pay for.

I enjoy the wargaming hobby for the aesthetics, not the game, so free/cheaper models making the tables look worse would be something I revolt against, yes.

UNless there was a way to get free/cheaper stuff without affecting the quality.

FOr a publicly traded company, offering free rules would make me put forward a motion to fire the board if I was a stock holder though.

 Blacksails wrote:
You make it sound like a bad thing people want the rules for free and that we should want to give GW the most amount of money for a product we may not even want.

The rest of the industry has shifted to either free rules, or much cheaper rules, and all those companies are doing fine. There is literally no reason we should be praising or defending GW's decision to sell expensive hardback books, often filled with gak fluff, poor art work, and frankly, low quality rules.

I'd never thought I'd see someone revolt against the idea of free/cheaper stuff.

Because I like having art, fluff and rules for my faction in one book. A problem is only a problem if you dont like the status quo. The rules arent going to improve by removing the art and fluff. That is a straight fact. The rules will be what they are. The fluff and art are nice to have and a single source book is the best option. Even someone like me, who loves the non-gaming side, isn't going to go buying a 30 book for stuff I can find on Lexicanum and Google images in 2 weeks time.

The rest of the industry is irrelevant. They offer competition, not alternatives. If you just want to play a game, that's maybe not at issue, but if you want to play 40k then this is how it is done.

Here's the reason we should be defending it: We like the fluff for the faction with the rules, we like the art work, and the rules are going to be the same. We like the current codex format. We don't like paying £30 a pop, but we also live in the real world where things cost money, including labour and publication. You wanna play the game, you gotta pay the entry fee. If you think the entry fee is too high, make it known. But don't try to ruin other people's experience by removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed.

 auticus wrote:
UNless there was a way to get free/cheaper stuff without affecting the quality.

Well, the rules quality is already pretty bad. There are much higher quality systems which offer free rules than what GW provides.

 auticus wrote:
FOr a publicly traded company, offering free rules would make me put forward a motion to fire the board if I was a stock holder though.

I don't know, it depends on the business model. Currently, GW is not presenting itself as a game company, but a model company. The rules are there to sell the models. When you are now in an environment where you are rapidly losing market share because of the large buy-in to the game.

They (and you) need to understand the concept of how a "loss-leader" works. This is how the majority of video game consoles work these days. Microsoft and Sony make nothing off the sales of the Xbox and Playstation and haven't for decades now. They make money off of licensing games to work on the consoles and accessories used with the console.

GW doesn't want to be a game company, that's fine. Then they don't sell the rules, they sell the models. They want to make money off the IP, that's what the Dark Library is for. Faction codices with artwork and "how to paint" can be sold from there. They won't sell as many as codices from past years, but then you won't have to print/stock as many to begin with, either.

 auticus wrote:
What I said was pretty neutral actually. All I said was that for a business, offering free rules and then trying to sell hardback rule books would be a huge mistake because very few would actually buy those books if they could get the rules for free.

You'd think so, but this is not actually the case. All rules for Pathfinder are freely available online either through official or sanctioned 3rd party channels and Paizo is still doing very well for themselves with their core rulebook a consistent top seller.