The new Kastelan robot fluff has them as ancient machines that occasionally “show up” and “allow” the tech-priests to direct them. Ignoring the “quality” of this fluff, does this mean that Kastelans are actually autonomous, or that something weirder is going on?
My favourite is the following section quoted verbatim -
"Esmodd 9-Determinis, last seen heading for the Protoid Nebula"
Has he stolen a ship?
Is he walking?
?!???!?
----------------------
In seriousness and in response to your question - I saw a theory somewhere that Kastellans are the last physical remnants of the Men of Iron... nowhere near as sapient as their ancestors after the war.
These 'ancient' examples could simply have more autonomy than newly produced versions etc.
very unlogical and flies in the face of established fluff. Autonomous machines are strictly forbidden.
Sorry, but this piece of fluff is so nonsensical I can't explain any of it within the context of existing fluff.
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Otto Weston wrote: My favourite is the following section quoted verbatim -
"Esmodd 9-Determinis, last seen heading for the Protoid Nebula"
Has he stolen a ship?
Is he walking?
?!???!?
----------------------
In seriousness and in response to your question - I saw a theory somewhere that Kastellans are the last physical remnants of the Men of Iron... nowhere near as sapient as their ancestors after the war.
These 'ancient' examples could simply have more autonomy than newly produced versions etc.
even if they where somehow descendant from the men of Iron, if they have no biological human components, legio cybernetica would never build and field them, or fight alongside them.
Otto Weston wrote: My favourite is the following section quoted verbatim -
"Esmodd 9-Determinis, last seen heading for the Protoid Nebula"
Has he stolen a ship?
Is he walking?
?!???!?
----------------------
In seriousness and in response to your question - I saw a theory somewhere that Kastellans are the last physical remnants of the Men of Iron... nowhere near as sapient as their ancestors after the war.
These 'ancient' examples could simply have more autonomy than newly produced versions etc.
THIS. IS. A. ROBBERY.
GIVE. ME. YOUR. SHIP. FLESHBAG.
Since the aftermath of Warmaster Horus’ rebellion, the Legio Cybernetica’s robots have been controlled completely by their masters – not by the bio-plastic cerebra and nerve-like tendril webs of Mechanicum constructs, but by sanctified doctrina
wafers, fusions of bio-matter and electronics often in even shorter supply than the robots themselves.
p. 42, 8th edition Codex Adeptus Mechanicus
The various robots/automata of the Mechanicum and Adeptus Mechanicus have always been in a gray zone when it comes to the prohibitions against artificial intelligence. If the technology involved somehow involve some organic or pseudo-organic component, it seems to fall under a technical loophole. It is also unclear what degree of autonomy is prohibited. Ultimately there is no clear criteria which is what leads to the Adpetus Mechanicus having religious schisms. One Tech-Priest's acceptable is another's tech-heresy.
The above quote seems to show that post-Heresy, the Adeptus Mechanicus came to the consensus that the old Mechanicum's methods were over the line or led to unacceptable levels of autonomy, and therefore shifted to the punch card systems (i.e. doctrina wafers).
The prohibition is on thinking machines, right? These are programmed. They are just executing whatever they were told to do at one point and aren't really AI, just powerful computers.
The new Kastelan robot fluff has them as ancient machines that occasionally “show up” and “allow” the tech-priests to direct them. Ignoring the “quality” of this fluff, does this mean that Kastelans are actually autonomous, or that something weirder is going on?
One wonders how these mysteriously appearing Kastelans get around. How do they refuel? How do they get more ammunition? How can they navigate? Are they intelligent enough to know where they’re going? Why do the Mechanicus just let them feth off and leave when they’re done “allowing themselves be controlled” fighting?
How the hell do the phosphor blaster hands Kastelans do anything off the battlefield? They have no hands!
One wonders how these mysteriously appearing Kastelans get around. How do they refuel? How do they get more ammunition? How can they navigate? Are they intelligent enough to know where they’re going? Why do the Mechanicus just let them feth off and leave when they’re done “allowing themselves be controlled” fighting?
How the hell do the phosphor blaster hands Kastelans do anything off the battlefield? They have no hands!
Space magic? That is some truly horrid fluff though. Insultingly bad, I fear the fluff is only going to get worse. Who wrote this Codex by the way?
We are jumping off the deep end a bit here as well. It states that some call no single forge world home, or all. Plenty of them still sit in their alcoves and march to war when directed.
Plenty of non-silly ways of imagining the rogue ones getting around too. Datasmiths who try to interpret the wishes of their "special" or "touched" robots who access transportation for them? Vox servitors speaking on behalf of the robots? Small self sufficient congregations formed around the robots who see themselves as on some sort of pilgrimage?
Maybe it's something akin to the Construct Council in Perdido Street Station: All the constructs, run off punch cards and analytical engines, can experience a glitch that unshackles the programming restrictions and causes the bots to programme themselves to sentience, but very few of them will actually show that they've become such.
Spoiler:
The cleaning construct gets the glitch, and strangely enough it worked out how to listen to what others were saying. The only way it could explicitly show it became, hell, sapient rather, was by sweeping its broom in the floor dust to write.
At night, the bots would congregate in the scrapyard, and were all humble to a gigantic supercomputer made of all the smaller ones in the scrap.
So in a world were seeing constructs walk about is normal enough, (Maybe not so much a toaster with legs, but these bots would upgrade themselves), who's going to be super fussed by a Kastelan toddling about? Especially knowing that they're archeotech relics, there'd be a great amount of reverence towards them.
The rogue Kastelans could be intelligent beyond comprehension; smart enough not to do anything heretical.
I expect, as a quirk of the space ships being so huge, you'd find independant robo cells living in the dank and dark halls of explorator ships where the others don't go. Might be the odd compliant tech priest in the mix.
Enough of the guys and enough forgotten space to operate from the ship without drawing attention.
The new Kastelan robot fluff has them as ancient machines that occasionally “show up” and “allow” the tech-priests to direct them. Ignoring the “quality” of this fluff, does this mean that Kastelans are actually autonomous, or that something weirder is going on?
So, the fluff is indeed bad but the intent is clear: allow people to take a random "hero" Kastelan with whatever colour scheme they want.
What would be a better way of doing that? I'll admit I'm drawing a bit of a blank on how to justify a freeblade Kastelan!
Buddingsquaw seems to be most of the way there, the free robots just need a reason to fight alongside their old masters (and not get scooped up and reprogrammed).
It also shows hypocrisy even in a religion based around logic and knowledge.
Remember, few if any know why self aware things are bad. They've been told, and they accept.
But Kastellan are remnants of a far earlier age. So if they starting acting up or acting out, it must be the Machine God willing it so. After all, they're not designed or intended to think for themselves....therefore any instance of it must be divine providence.
Perhaps millennia ago there was a prophet of the Machine God that programmed their visions into the Kastellans under their watch. That sort of thing might dimly be known to the upper echelons of the Mechanicus. Seeing the wisdom, they choose to programme their own underlings to simply not worry about it, or bother reporting things.
I find it helps to demonstrate just how ignorant the Mechanicus is in the grand scheme of things. Much like Orks, they rarely care how something works, let alone truly understand how it does so.
My take on the whole idea is that, that little blurb in Codex: Cult Mechanicus it said something about those organic floppy disk bits that have a basic set of predetermined intelligence/tasks which is then altered by the accompanying Datasmith based on whatever battle is ensuing.
I imagine that the datasmith is otherwise slain leaving their Kastelan left to run on that same directive until it dies. This could be something like "kill all tyranids or locate STC's"
In that little showcase of the "hero Kastelans" we never see a Datasmith, but as we all know a robot should never be without his Datasith.
Now it being the 31st - 41st millennium I would imagine there would be enough automation to allow at least some advanced decision making that's still within non-heretical boundaries.
Warhammer being all grimdark and all I would also assume a Dakkastelan would most likely have coding to know how to hijack a vessel and "take this unit to X location or I'll blast your head off".
To explain the part of "would allow itself to be controlled by surrounding tech-priests" I could safely assume there would be universal coding in the Kastelan identifying a tech-priest as a superior officer thus giving way to its commands. Because we're all in it for the glory of the Omnisiah right?
monarda wrote: -snip- the free robots just need a reason to fight alongside their old masters (and not get scooped up and reprogrammed).
The constructs of New Crobuzon were all out and about gathering as much information as they could get, relaying it back to the Councillor every night.
There definitely seemed to be an ingrained "dominate" motive, but that wasn't played on much.
The Councillor worked with Isaac to try and get a hold of his Crisis engine, and Isaac used the Councillor's immense programming power to get the engine to work how he needed it to.
As it happened, he needed a firewall to stop the Councillor from taking it over. There's a few great snippets where it vies for control in different ways.
That was just one opportunity for the machines to get what they needed to take over the city.
- I should make a note of how the constructs were orchestrated to lay all these crazy cables over the city, with the help of the indentured citizens, without the Militia (basically Gestapo) noticing. - Machines being secretive and unassuming in executing their grand plans.
In the Iron Council book, which plays out ~50 or so years after PSS, there's several mentions of the "Construct War", where the machines did attempt a coup.
Resulted in constructs being outright banned, a sort of black market of Atromancy developing.
-----
Basically, these rogue Kastelans and possible other archeotech robots are just gathering information, waiting for an important thing to appear. May very well be an STC that was crucial to robotics or something.
Might end up with another war vs the machines. Lots of really cool potential to it; I'm rather taken in by the mystery of these Kastelans.
Maybe they're the purest of the Omnissiah's servants?
well this is old fluff as it was in the cult book.
It is allso mentioned in there that kastelants can go rampant and the best corse of action is to let it go rampant untill it runs out of "fuel" no matter how mutch collateral dmg it preforms.
So these things combined i belive we are simply looking at programming glitches when a kastelant is behaving not as originaly programmed.
Apart from all this, it is allso a good way to add some painting and modeling variation to your kastelants looks.
When they say "older then imperium" than means you could model a relic kast pre 30k..
Hum, this will take some headcanoning to get to work for me.
I like the idea that they're not really self-aware at all, they've just got relatively sophisticated logic-processing systems. Smart robot, but a robot nonetheless.
So, similar to Golems in Sir Terry Pratchett's Discworld if the last command given to them was 'dig' then they won't stop digging until they hit the mantle and melt (or in Discworld fall through the bottom).
So, give a Kastelan the command 'get to X planet' then it will mindlessly dedicate its entire existence to reaching that planet in a way that might originally suggest intelligence until you see that without the element of choice and self-determination it's not really intelligence at all.
Eh. I don't know. Works better than Abominable Intelligence. Glad they've left it open to interpretation though
This is very silly, there's not more than a few minutes of though put into this bit of lore. Honestly the best way to interpret this is as a symbol of how badly the AdMech has gotten in terms of contradictions and following their own rules. They claim to abhor AI, but these machines are obviously self-aware and they both accept them and call them blessings of the god that so despises AI. It's an interesting bit of ambiguity.
gnome_idea_what wrote: This is very silly, there's not more than a few minutes of though put into this bit of lore. Honestly the best way to interpret this is as a symbol of how badly the AdMech has gotten in terms of contradictions and following their own rules. They claim to abhor AI, but these machines are obviously self-aware and they both accept them and call them blessings of the god that so despises AI. It's an interesting bit of ambiguity.
Either that or it shows how superstitious and backwards the Ad Mech are in that they're anthropomorphising a non-sentient robot that just so happens to have programming sophisticated enough to make it appear like it's wandered in from nowhere when actually it was just the last techpriest to attend to them dialled in 'walk that way' and got shot in the head before they could say 'and now shoot those guys'.
Was talking about this with my friends and we proposed that it's just the AdMech being really bad at administration.
Archmagos sends a shipment of Kastelans off to the front but never records it any where, the shipment arrives and the datasmiths praise the Omnissiah. When the battle is won, a datasmith decides to send a few Kastelans somewhere else, it gets lost in a warpstorm, everybody forgets about it, but then Hooray! Praise the Omnissiah! A Kastelan has arrived to help turn the tides of battle!.
That would be absolutely ridiculous!
And is greatly amusnig because of the fact.
However that would be a rather large piece of coincidence that Kastellan appear at the right time at the right place where the right kind of army is facing off an enemy...
But that is the kind of grim dark humour that makes 40k work and is totally in style. I love that piece.. Part of my headcannon now!
The new Kastelan robot fluff has them as ancient machines that occasionally “show up” and “allow” the tech-priests to direct them. Ignoring the “quality” of this fluff, does this mean that Kastelans are actually autonomous, or that something weirder is going on?
This isn't new to 8th. This is how they were described in the 7th Edition Codex Cult Mechanicus. It's just basically saying that they're dirt old and nobody today understands why they do the things they do.
1. Kastelan is headed to planet XYZ probably because he was told to at some point in the past. The reason is lost to time as is the need. If he ever arrives, he'll probably just stand there forever and rust.
2. Kastelans show up out of nowhere to help probably because they monitor AdMech communication channels and have basic programming indicating that they should help any AdMech forces they come near.
etc, etc.
I'm more bored by how many "mysterious allies show up on the eve of battle and leave without a word" circumstances we're getting. I think everybody but the Imperial Guard has 'em at this point.
I'm also more inclined to believe that most of the mysterious actions of note could take place among a single warzone. For instance, during the battle of Armageddon, a group of Kastellans might show up at Hades hive and join the AdMech forces there during the assault, but then mysteriously leave somehow unnoticed, following some oddity in their programming.
Then, days or weeks later, they wander into another section of the warzone, maybe led by their sensors to 'something shiny', much to the puzzlement of forces there who never requested such aid, so in the techno-religious fashion of 40k, consider it a sign of the Omnissiah.
The way it's written seems to me like it's implying that they aren't totally cybernetic--having AI would obviously go against the fluff thus the implied context is there's a brain somewhere in there. Or at least was, once. It may even have been a dreadnought-style 'upgrade' for wounded Skitarii.
But GW screwing up their own fluff isn't uncommon, so it's up in the air.
My hypothesis after reading that is that they have a cybernetica cortex, but down the road had a sort of collar installed in the form of the data card command system to bypass it for those without a cortex cotroller. In the age of darkness there were imperial robots known as paragons of metal which could operate freely without a cortex controller to direct their actions, bordering on sentiant. These hero kastallans could very well have the cybernetica cortex of a paragon of metal based on their behaviour.
Kastelan-class robots were around during the HH - they're in the novel 'Cybernetica'.
I like this bit of Kastelan fluff -
Spoiler:
‘Evaluation report ceta nine-gamma, decimus thirty-three. Subtle alterations to the Kastelans’ assault protocols produced unsatisfactory results, including an anomalous tendency for prolonged mutilation at the expense of efficiency. I shall continue my experimentation.’- Magos Xygrus Octelans
I can see groups of the things wandering around between warzones on a single world, as described above. I also find the idea that these robots have an independent means of interstellar travel unsatisfying.
Flinty wrote: I can see groups of the things wandering around between warzones on a single world, as described above. I also find the idea that these robots have an independent means of interstellar travel unsatisfying.
Rather than an independent method of interstellar travel i'm given to think that they basically just walk onto ships completely unannounced. Who's going to stop a 30ft tall war-robot after all?
My guess is that they are uniquely designed Robots made with a purpose more developed than the generic Kastelan Robots, hard-coded by their ancient creators to accomplish something more, and they'll strive to pursue these goals, even if they're impossible to complete, or if the code of their mission is incomplete or corrupted. The fact that they "allow" themselves to be controlled in certain occasions means they refuse to be controlled the rest of the time, which could be explained by reinforced security protocols set by their creators, impossible for the Datasmiths to breach. The times they are controllable are when a certain condition is met in the current situation, allowing the Robot to be controlled for a time. When this condition expires he regains full control of himself and goes on in eternal, mysterious quest.
Kastelan-class Robots are considered by many in the AdMech to be the "Angels of the Omnissiah", they are living relics still working today thanks to a technology long forgotten, and they are the perfect servants of the Omnissiah, being completely made of metal and devoid of human frailty like emotions, good or bad. I could understand that most Tech-Priests wouldn't try to stop them doing their thing, because they're probably seeing these "Obedients" as chosen of the Omnissiah, on a quest only known by them, and it would be heresy to interfere with their mission. Datasmiths love the Robots so bad, that in the novel "Tech-Priest" there is one that actually goes berserk upon seeing his Maniple destroyed, charging furiously into a group of Obliterators, having lost the will to live.
As for the recharge of their batteries and refill of ammo, it would not be too hard to believe that they can recognise refill posts at AdMech bases/ships, and go there by themselves. They also could be escorted by a congregation of zealots taking great care of them, assuring they never lack anything.
I really love the fluff behind the Kastelan Robots, and I don't believe these "Obedients" are a hole impossible to explain, that surprised me back in 7th Edition but since then I've read more about them and came to the conclusion above.
Flinty wrote: I can see groups of the things wandering around between warzones on a single world, as described above. I also find the idea that these robots have an independent means of interstellar travel unsatisfying.
Rather than an independent method of interstellar travel i'm given to think that they basically just walk onto ships completely unannounced. Who's going to stop a 30ft tall war-robot after all?
Fair enough, but then it's not like the captain wouldn't know about them and be frantically trying to prove to the AdMec that they are not in fact abducting these priceless relics of an ancient era
The Kastelan was given some extremely complicated directive such as: "SAVE THE IMPERIUM" and it's doing its damnedest to accomplish this goal however it can. The little train that could?
Otto Weston wrote: My favourite is the following section quoted verbatim -
"Esmodd 9-Determinis, last seen heading for the Protoid Nebula"
Has he stolen a ship?
Is he walking?
?!???!?
----------------------
In seriousness and in response to your question - I saw a theory somewhere that Kastellans are the last physical remnants of the Men of Iron... nowhere near as sapient as their ancestors after the war.
These 'ancient' examples could simply have more autonomy than newly produced versions etc.
Kastellans aren't Men in Iron. We now actually know what the Men in Iron were, and they were more akin to titans than mere robots, or at least in their greatest form. In the DAOT mankind fielded autonomous engines which would literally eat the crust of planets and crack them, swarms of nanites which would strip the flesh of everything on the planet in a matter of minutes, and possibly great orbital stations that could kill stars if their name means anything- "Sunsnuffer".
Otto Weston wrote: My favourite is the following section quoted verbatim -
"Esmodd 9-Determinis, last seen heading for the Protoid Nebula"
Has he stolen a ship?
Is he walking?
?!???!?
----------------------
In seriousness and in response to your question - I saw a theory somewhere that Kastellans are the last physical remnants of the Men of Iron... nowhere near as sapient as their ancestors after the war.
These 'ancient' examples could simply have more autonomy than newly produced versions etc.
Kastellans aren't Men in Iron. We now actually know what the Men in Iron were, and they were more akin to titans than mere robots, or at least in their greatest form. In the DAOT mankind fielded autonomous engines which would literally eat the crust of planets and crack them, swarms of nanites which would strip the flesh of everything on the planet in a matter of minutes, and possibly great orbital stations that could kill stars if their name means anything- "Sunsnuffer".
Kastellans aren't Men in Iron. We now actually know what the Men in Iron were, and they were more akin to titans than mere robots, or at least in their greatest form. In the DAOT mankind fielded autonomous engines which would literally eat the crust of planets and crack them, swarms of nanites which would strip the flesh of everything on the planet in a matter of minutes, and possibly great orbital stations that could kill stars if their name means anything- "Sunsnuffer".
Which book is that in? Or books. And are they any good?
pm713 wrote:That just sounds over the top.
The DaoT has been described as having incredible technology for quite a while. Which makes me wonder how it would compare to modern Necrons. And whether the Eldar lost just as much technology during the Fall as humanity did during the Old Night or if they mostly relied on overwhelming Psychic power.
I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
Kastellans aren't Men in Iron. We now actually know what the Men in Iron were, and they were more akin to titans than mere robots, or at least in their greatest form. In the DAOT mankind fielded autonomous engines which would literally eat the crust of planets and crack them, swarms of nanites which would strip the flesh of everything on the planet in a matter of minutes, and possibly great orbital stations that could kill stars if their name means anything- "Sunsnuffer".
Which book is that in? Or books. And are they any good?
pm713 wrote:That just sounds over the top.
The DaoT has been described as having incredible technology for quite a while. Which makes me wonder how it would compare to modern Necrons. And whether the Eldar lost just as much technology during the Fall as humanity did during the Old Night or if they mostly relied on overwhelming Psychic power.
It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
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Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
They have to use a lot of protection like Rune armour, Ghosthelms, Runes or special areas in the Craftworld to do anything. Even then they seem to limit themselves to stop Demons eating their brains. So they can't use their full potential. But every example of Empire technology I've seen they can use. It's just either held by Dark Eldar who have no psychic power, stuck on Crone Worlds where nobody can get it or beyond their ability to make. They do live on really big trade ships after all.
It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
Remember, much of the anti-psyker technology used by the Imperium originated in the Dark Age of Technology. So, I seriously doubt that Mankind was that helpless before the Space Elves.
If anything,based on what we do know about the Dark Age of Technology, Mankind came close to rivaling the Eldar. The age of the Eldar race is irrelevant.
It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
Remember, much of the anti-psyker technology used by the Imperium originated in the Dark Age of Technology. So, I seriously doubt that Mankind was that helpless before the Space Elves.
If anything,based on what we do know about the Dark Age of Technology, Mankind came close to rivaling the Eldar. The age of the Eldar race is irrelevant.
They didn't. We know for a fact that pre Fall the Eldar Empire was unrivalled which is what lead to the Fall. So no matter how awesome Humanity was or what they had they weren't a big deal to the Eldar.
It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
Remember, much of the anti-psyker technology used by the Imperium originated in the Dark Age of Technology. So, I seriously doubt that Mankind was that helpless before the Space Elves.
If anything,based on what we do know about the Dark Age of Technology, Mankind came close to rivaling the Eldar. The age of the Eldar race is irrelevant.
They didn't. We know for a fact that pre Fall the Eldar Empire was unrivalled which is what lead to the Fall. So no matter how awesome Humanity was or what they had they weren't a big deal to the Eldar.
Told from an eldar perspective in an eldar book, the evidence suggests otherwise, you would never allow a potential enemy to surround you completely, pre fall humanity completely surrounds the current eye, which was the centre of the eldar empire, both eldar and humanity of the time were giants in the playground, mutually assured destruction is a more likely reason for neither going into all out war, both were more than capable of sniffing out entire star systems, both had very advanced automated armed forces, current imperial stc tech is both tougher and has better fire power than current eldar tech, this also suggests that pre fall humans would have had the edge in both, but lacked in mobility, at the end of the day we don't know who was more powerful, but seeing as humanity spread all over the galaxy and the eldar didn't, that would suggest that the pre fall eldar could not stop this from happening.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Snuffing... not sniffing
It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
Remember, much of the anti-psyker technology used by the Imperium originated in the Dark Age of Technology. So, I seriously doubt that Mankind was that helpless before the Space Elves.
If anything,based on what we do know about the Dark Age of Technology, Mankind came close to rivaling the Eldar. The age of the Eldar race is irrelevant.
They didn't. We know for a fact that pre Fall the Eldar Empire was unrivalled which is what lead to the Fall. So no matter how awesome Humanity was or what they had they weren't a big deal to the Eldar.
Told from an eldar perspective in an eldar book, the evidence suggests otherwise, you would never allow a potential enemy to surround you completely, pre fall humanity completely surrounds the current eye, which was the centre of the eldar empire, both eldar and humanity of the time were giants in the playground, mutually assured destruction is a more likely reason for neither going into all out war, both were more than capable of sniffing out entire star systems, both had very advanced automated armed forces, current imperial stc tech is both tougher and has better fire power than current eldar tech, this also suggests that pre fall humans would have had the edge in both, but lacked in mobility, at the end of the day we don't know who was more powerful, but seeing as humanity spread all over the galaxy and the eldar didn't, that would suggest that the pre fall eldar could not stop this from happening.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Snuffing... not sniffing
Well if you thought you could just beat them with a hand behind your back you probably wouldn't care. Mutually assured destruction seems wrong as that hardly creates an environment for the Fall and why would the Eldar let them reach that point?
Didn't Human automatons get wiped out in a civil war trying to kill Mankind.,....
STC tech being better than Eldar tech doesn't prove much. A combination of refugees, farmers and people who can't use their own technology don't show their full potential. That's like saying I can conquer an Imperial Feudal World therefore I can take on the Imperium on a technological level.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
I'm inclined to agree. They don't seem to have a enormous technological power that the background suggests they possessed.
Yeah I think I've heard that before. It's possible that some of the technology amplified their powers too. The Imperium has psi-affecting technology so I don't see why the Eldar wouldn't either. I also imagine that many automatons they used could have been powered by their Psychic powers. If they used them for construction and/or warfare and no longer can risk it it'd help explain their marked drop in power.
pm713 wrote:It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
I just assume that the Eldar technology and Psychic prowess was such that they were still dominant in terms of power. The DAoT humans could have brilliant technology and apocalyptic weapons but if the Eldar were capable of stopping them from using it or countering it through other means then it wouldn't mean much if it came to a war.
It's not that it's incredible it's that no matter how awesome Mankind were they were nothing to the Eldar Empire. So making the DaOT awesome just makes Eldar oddly implausible.
Remember, much of the anti-psyker technology used by the Imperium originated in the Dark Age of Technology. So, I seriously doubt that Mankind was that helpless before the Space Elves.
If anything,based on what we do know about the Dark Age of Technology, Mankind came close to rivaling the Eldar. The age of the Eldar race is irrelevant.
They didn't. We know for a fact that pre Fall the Eldar Empire was unrivalled which is what lead to the Fall. So no matter how awesome Humanity was or what they had they weren't a big deal to the Eldar.
Told from an eldar perspective in an eldar book, the evidence suggests otherwise, you would never allow a potential enemy to surround you completely, pre fall humanity completely surrounds the current eye, which was the centre of the eldar empire, both eldar and humanity of the time were giants in the playground, mutually assured destruction is a more likely reason for neither going into all out war, both were more than capable of sniffing out entire star systems, both had very advanced automated armed forces, current imperial stc tech is both tougher and has better fire power than current eldar tech, this also suggests that pre fall humans would have had the edge in both, but lacked in mobility, at the end of the day we don't know who was more powerful, but seeing as humanity spread all over the galaxy and the eldar didn't, that would suggest that the pre fall eldar could not stop this from happening.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Snuffing... not sniffing
Well if you thought you could just beat them with a hand behind your back you probably wouldn't care. Mutually assured destruction seems wrong as that hardly creates an environment for the Fall and why would the Eldar let them reach that point?
Didn't Human automatons get wiped out in a civil war trying to kill Mankind.,....
STC tech being better than Eldar tech doesn't prove much. A combination of refugees, farmers and people who can't use their own technology don't show their full potential. That's like saying I can conquer an Imperial Feudal World therefore I can take on the Imperium on a technological level.
Humans during the dark age were undisputed masters of the galaxy, eldar were the same, both cannot be true, on the one hand we have the opinion of an imperial looking back, on the other we have the opinion of a race known for its arrogance and unwillingness to admit it's not superior to every other race, so both are anecdotal at best, that leaves us what tech is left to try to gain some understanding of what each could possibly have fielded or used, sketchy at best, but stc tech is superior as far as we can see in this limited way, next we have the fact that the eldar were surrounded on all sides, this is shown in many sources as human worlds are found everywhere surrounding the old eldar empire, next we know that eldar also used automated systems for war at one point same as the humans, the human ones rebelled at some point but this still did not cripple humanity, it was however a heavy nail in its coffin, then we have psykers popping up everywhere, humanity was slowly fractured by this.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
Third option is that the Eldar were so powerful humanity dared not invade their territory and so the Eldar turned inward because there was no threat to them. Humanity spreading so much doesn't conflict with that if the Eldar didn't care.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
Third option is that the Eldar were so powerful humanity dared not invade their territory and so the Eldar turned inward because there was no threat to them. Humanity spreading so much doesn't conflict with that if the Eldar didn't care.
Or that space is really big, and that humanity’s surrounding the Eldar didn’t mean a lot because there was still almost no contact with each other and negligible competition for resources and/or territory.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
I guess more important is other thing - why, despite their MILLIONS of years headstart , Eldar didn't colonized most of Galaxy? Humans did it in just few millenias, several ORDERS of magnitude less than Eldar history...
Probably not a surprise, but i'm definitely in the 'eldar were superior' camp.
DAoT mankind had ~25,000 years of development. The Eldar had 60 million. 2400 times as long for technological development. The eldar could have gone through two thousand four hundred complete technological dark ages, with resets putting them back to the iron age, and still have enough time to equal the technological feats of DAoT mankind assuming at least roughly comparable technological development rates.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
I guess more important is other thing - why, despite their MILLIONS of years headstart , Eldar didn't colonized most of Galaxy? Humans did it in just few millenias, several ORDERS of magnitude less than Eldar history...
Perhaps it's not in their nature to spread out among the galaxy in millions upon millions of warrens. Alien psychology and all that.
Perhaps it's not in their nature to spread out among the galaxy in millions upon millions of warrens. Alien psychology and all that.
BTW, Galaxy is just about 100.000 LY wide, so if sun-killing weapons were used earlier than that there'll be no human-visible signs that something happened other than remnants of dead systems that could be stumbled upon only by accident...if there's something left to stumbe upon.
Eldar ruins are widespread enough around Galaxy - either outposts abandoned just prior to/during Fall or... settlements something forced them to abandon for their core homeworlds. Something that's suposedly no longer there , something powerful but less myth-creating than War in Heaven. Or something Eldar just too ashamed to talk about.
Take your pick - great Ork Waagh that'd make Beast look like Saddam Hussein compared to Hitler , Eldar fratricidal war (btw - Hruud as branch of Ældari rumours anyone?)... or maybe first coming of Tyranids seen as huge but manageable natural disaster instead of existencial danger (for.ex.from 'Last Ditch' by S. Mitchell:
Spoiler:
‘Because the first recorded contact with the tyranids was just two hundred years ago,’ Amberley said, speaking slowly and distinctly, like my old schola tutors used to do when I was missing a point they thought was obvious, ‘and according to your friend Izembard these have been there for millennia.’
‘Maybe they’ve been around longer than anyone thought,’ I suggested. ‘Could you check the records?’ If anyone was likely to have evidence to support that assumption, it would be the Ordo Xenos, the branch of the Inquisition she worked for.
‘No need,’ she said. ‘Without wanting to bore you with the details,’ which was a polite way of saying I didn’t have the clearance to know, ‘there have been a few incidents which might possibly be earlier incursions. But the earliest of those was in M35.’
‘The ones we found had been on Nusquam Fundumentibus a lot longer than that,’ I said. ‘So what were they doing there?’
)
So - maybe 'height of Eldar Empire' meant 'all long-standing enemies seemed defeated - at the cost' and not the apex of their real might or influence.
One wonders how these mysteriously appearing Kastelans get around. How do they refuel? How do they get more ammunition? How can they navigate? Are they intelligent enough to know where they’re going? Why do the Mechanicus just let them feth off and leave when they’re done “allowing themselves be controlled” fighting?
How the hell do the phosphor blaster hands Kastelans do anything off the battlefield? They have no hands!
They just shoot everything. They're very notorious for that.
I now want to see a cartoon where a millenia-old Kastelan Robot is trying to get across the galaxy to fulfil his last directive, and his escapades doing so...
This week he tries to buy tickets for a transport spaceship to get to the next sector.
After some frustration and errors he manages to use his blaster gun barrels to press the right buttons on the ticket machine and the paper ticket is dispensed out into the collection slot, but DISASTER! He can't fit the gun barrels into the ticket slot and is unable to pick them up so he methodically murders everyone in the spaceport with searing phosphor death.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
Third option is that the Eldar were so powerful humanity dared not invade their territory and so the Eldar turned inward because there was no threat to them. Humanity spreading so much doesn't conflict with that if the Eldar didn't care.
That doesn't gel with what little we know though, and how the eldar behave now, they are extremely jealous of there power and almost pathologically incapable of admitting they are not masters of the galaxy, I can only imagine that during there age of strife they were much much worse, arrogance is the eldars defining trait, if they could stop it, they would not have allowed the mon'kieh to spread across the stars.
I'm trying to get as much info and extrapolate what I can from what little we have, and it just doesn't support eldar being all powerful, just very powerful, but not powerful enough to beat dark age humans, nor do I believe dark age humans would have been able to totally defeat the eldar of the time.
It's almost as if some sort of galactic catastrophe has changed their perspective on guarding their power
To be honest, either options could be equally possible, although I do tend to sway to the side of 'the eldar let humanity spread throughout the galaxy because you don't overly care if termites have built another hive somewhere when you're sitting on the top floor of your skyscraper pleasure-dome'.
There's certainly evidence that the eldar were far more laissez-faire when it came to other species pre-Fall. There's instances where eldar from the empire would spend time among the 'primatives' of the galaxy in order to try and gain some understanding of what hardship of any sort is like. That certainly implies that they were on far less xenophobic in general, and more likely to tolerate other species scrabbling around in the dirt around their glorious (and insular) empire.
Remember, this was a time in the galaxy where everyone (humans included) were far less xenophobic. DAoT mankind even had a Federation-style alliance with a number of xenos species (which subsequently turned on them during the Old Night, spawning the rampant xenophobia we see today).
pm713 wrote: In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.
Very true. It was what the Emperor witnessed during the Old Night that fuelled gis xenophobia. Presumably he was content to cavort with xenos (or let humanity cavort with xenos under his watch) prior to then.
pm713 wrote: In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.
Very true. It was what the Emperor witnessed during the Old Night that fuelled gis xenophobia. Presumably he was content to cavort with xenos (or let humanity cavort with xenos under his watch) prior to then.
Honestly I think the Emperor just wanted to not share anything. He doesn't seem very kind. Or smart. Or sane.....
pm713 wrote: In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.
Very true. It was what the Emperor witnessed during the Old Night that fuelled gis xenophobia. Presumably he was content to cavort with xenos (or let humanity cavort with xenos under his watch) prior to then.
Honestly I think the Emperor just wanted to not share anything. He doesn't seem very kind. Or smart. Or sane.....
I absolutely agree with you...but in this instance 'don't trust aliens' is probably one of the soundest pieces of advice you could give in the 40k universe.
Orks: pop your head because it's fun
Necrons: shoot you with their guns that flay you one atom at a time, for little other reason than that you're alive
Tyranids: eat you
Kroot: eat you
Tau: indoctrinate you into serving the greater good of the Tau
Eldar: pretend to be your friend while steering your destiny towards one where you get eaten/flayed/head popped rather than they do
Dark Eldar: like Orks...but oh so much more inventive...
Hrud: generally alright...until enough of them get into one place and everything around you starts inexplicably decaying
In fairness most minor species are probably fine being left alone. Eldar don't do that much if you're nice to each other and aren't messing about with Chaos. But some Xenos are undeniably unfriendly. Except Orks who seem friendly but still want to kill you. They're just cheery about it.
pm713 wrote: In fairness most minor species are probably fine being left alone. Eldar don't do that much if you're nice to each other and aren't messing about with Chaos. But some Xenos are undeniably unfriendly. Except Orks who seem friendly but still want to kill you. They're just cheery about it.
Fine being left alone until they get big enough to do something about the horrendously xenophobic Imperium, at which point they'll probably learn the lesson that you kill or be killed in the 40k universe. Of course it's a cyclical thing, where if the Imperium were more tolerant then the wouldn't foster so many enemies, but the xenophobia is so well entrenched in the 40k universe it's basically the only sane choice.
The idea that the eldar don't do that much to you if you're nice to them is probably pure naivety on the part of the Imperium. 'Don't do that much' involves subtly manoeuvring events you can't even see yet let alone predict the outcome of to ensure that the next Waaagh to sweep through your area of space wipes out your species rather than kills a dozen eldar, all the while acting friendly to your face and harping on about how you need to join forces to defeat Chaos.
They're the single most insidious alien species humanity has faced yet. At least daemons have the decency to look horrible and evil while they whisper their lies into your ears.
In another world, in another universe, I'm sure they'd get along much better. In the 40k universe with the threats that exist, the eldar's collective view of humanity is 'meatshield' and nothing more. To believe otherwise means that their war is half won already
Man I love insidious eldar none of this wishy-washy derivative space elf stuff.
I meant it as an 'if' situation more than anything. Like if the Imperium wasn't horrible minor races would just be peaceful and fine.
As things are they're probably still peaceful a fair bit because that prolongs their existence because they're low down the threat list.
Personally I think Eldar would be completely peaceful with the Imperium if they weren't a threat. They'd have no reason to fight them and it costs lives so there's a big reason not to do it. But again xenophobe IoM = meatshield IoM.
pm713 wrote: I meant it as an 'if' situation more than anything. Like if the Imperium wasn't horrible minor races would just be peaceful and fine.
As things are they're probably still peaceful a fair bit because that prolongs their existence because they're low down the threat list.
Personally I think Eldar would be completely peaceful with the Imperium if they weren't a threat. They'd have no reason to fight them and it costs lives so there's a big reason not to do it. But again xenophobe IoM = meatshield IoM.
Oh absolutely the Imperium is the cause of the vast majority of its own problems
In fact, we've got evidence that the eldar were (for the most part) completely peaceful with mankind when they weren't a threat during the height of the eldar empire.
Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.
I guess more important is other thing - why, despite their MILLIONS of years headstart , Eldar didn't colonized most of Galaxy? Humans did it in just few millenias, several ORDERS of magnitude less than Eldar history...
For all we know, they did. Then, thirty million years ago, they started flocking to the big cities. Ten million years ago they entered their leisure state, where the core worlds gave Eldar everything they could ever want, leaving their colonies underfunded, underpopulated and forgotten. Perhaps the decadent end stage of their fall lasted for thousands of years, plenty of time for the DAOT human expansion, a flash in the pan out in the sticks to coked out cosmopolitan Eldar. The difference in time scales between the DAOT and the Eldar empire might mean the two were never in competition at their respective heights.
Formosa wrote: That doesn't gel with what little we know though, and how the eldar behave now, they are extremely jealous of there power and almost pathologically incapable of admitting they are not masters of the galaxy, I can only imagine that during there age of strife they were much much worse, arrogance is the eldars defining trait, if they could stop it, they would not have allowed the mon'kieh to spread across the stars.
I'm trying to get as much info and extrapolate what I can from what little we have, and it just doesn't support eldar being all powerful, just very powerful, but not powerful enough to beat dark age humans, nor do I believe dark age humans would have been able to totally defeat the eldar of the time.
I thought it was only really Biel'tan that couldn't accept not being rulers of the galaxy? Either way, the Imperium is massively different to DAoT humanity in mindset and there's not much reason to assume the Eldar wouldn't also have changed a great deal. I don't see it has far fetched that the Eldar, having turned inwardly, wouldn't have cared much about a species colonising the parts of the galaxy they didn't care about. I feel like the presence of uncolonised Maiden Worlds suggests that they had stopped caring about the rest of the galaxy.
pm713 wrote:I meant it as an 'if' situation more than anything. Like if the Imperium wasn't horrible minor races would just be peaceful and fine.
...
Personally I think Eldar would be completely peaceful with the Imperium if they weren't a threat. They'd have no reason to fight them and it costs lives so there's a big reason not to do it. But again xenophobe IoM = meatshield IoM.
To be fair those minor races aren't a threat to the Imperium. Wiping them out early stops them from being a danger further down the line. Any opponent which is capable of contesting serious Imperial power was always going to be hostile regardless of how diplomatic the Imperium was. Even the Tau were aggressively expansionistic before the Damocles Crusade.
The Eldar might have been more inclined to be peaceful (and might try diplomacy instead of force to remove Imperial presence from Tomb Worlds etc) but they'd still be inclined to direct their enemies onto the Imperium. At the least I'd see it as a sort of cold war between them.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
The eldar existed during humanities Dark Age of Technology, and yet their dominance was never questioned. Humans controlled most of the galaxy, had an army of thinking robots that could destroy planets and suns, and yet knew they had 0 chance of challenging the pre-fall eldar.
The pre-fall eldar also fought with sentient battlemachines. With the webway, they probably kept their fleet and army concentrated in one place, and just jumped wherever in the galaxy it was needed all at once.
Either
It was all in the core systems and destroyed by the creation of she who thirsts
or
It's sitting in corner of Commorragh and no one has the psykic power to activate it.
The latter makes for some interesting short story potential.
In fact, we've got evidence that the eldar were (for the most part) completely peaceful with mankind when they weren't a threat during the height of the eldar empire.
BTW there's something strange in Thorpe's "Asurmen":
‘To honour those that could not enjoy such times,’ Illiathin snapped back. ‘Generations that lived and died on starships to seed the world we inhabit. Forefathers that travelled the cold gulf between stars to harness the webway gates that stretch from one end of civilisation to the other. Millions that died fighting wars against countless mon-keigh species, dying to create peace for those that came after. We should remember them, not emulate them.’
As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.
chyron wrote: As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.
Mon-keigh isn't a human specific term (Codex: Eldar (3rd ed.), pg.46).
chyron wrote: As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.
Mon-keigh isn't a human specific term (Codex: Eldar (3rd ed.), pg.46).
I thought it was pretty clear that Mon-keigh is supposed to be read as monkey and that the Eldar are just being elitist and dismissive towards a species they consider a step above monkeys.
Arbitrator wrote: I'm more bored by how many "mysterious allies show up on the eve of battle and leave without a word" circumstances we're getting. I think everybody but the Imperial Guard has 'em at this point.
chyron wrote: As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.
Mon-keigh isn't a human specific term (Codex: Eldar (3rd ed.), pg.46).
I thought it was pretty clear that Mon-keigh is supposed to be read as monkey and that the Eldar are just being elitist and dismissive towards a species they consider a step above monkeys.
It probably is a joke that it sounds like monkey but it's definitely all younger races. Tau, Squats, Kroot or whatever. They're all Mon-Keigh.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
We have seen the remnants of the Empire's technology- it's the Dark Eldar. The Craftworlders are a bunch of luddite cultists who escaped the Fall, the Dark Eldar are the direct successor of the Empire. The Dark City itself was made with a special machine constructed just before the fall that allowed one to create whatever they imagined using the power of the warp. Then there's the ridiculous life extension technologies of the Dark Eldar that allow them to be resurrected from a single finger or toenail being saved, black hole bombs, superior stealth technology, and virtually supreme mastery over biology. Although it's questionable if the Empire actually did reign supreme over the Human Federation(s), considering DAOT humans were slinging about firepower and war machines that even the Necrons would be pressed to equal (they do, but it's rare even for them).
In addition the majority of the Eldar population was not in the Materium. The Eldar Empire was largley situated in the Webway, existing in a proverbial neverland which doesn't actually take up physical space and allowed them to expand to obscene levels. At its height it's possible the Eldar population was in the tredecillions (albeit according to a Daemon), which explains why the Eldar moan about "dying out" even though their population is "merely" in the billions.
The Dark Eldar are hardly the successors of the Empire considering pretty much all it's technology is useless to them. As well I recall one of the DE novels stating that a soul is required for resurrecting someone which is distinctly DE rather than Imperial Eldar.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
We have seen the remnants of the Empire's technology- it's the Dark Eldar. The Craftworlders are a bunch of luddite cultists who escaped the Fall, the Dark Eldar are the direct successor of the Empire. The Dark City itself was made with a special machine constructed just before the fall that allowed one to create whatever they imagined using the power of the warp. Then there's the ridiculous life extension technologies of the Dark Eldar that allow them to be resurrected from a single finger or toenail being saved, black hole bombs, superior stealth technology, and virtually supreme mastery over biology. Although it's questionable if the Empire actually did reign supreme over the Human Federation(s), considering DAOT humans were slinging about firepower and war machines that even the Necrons would be pressed to equal (they do, but it's rare even for them).
In addition the majority of the Eldar population was not in the Materium. The Eldar Empire was largley situated in the Webway, existing in a proverbial neverland which doesn't actually take up physical space and allowed them to expand to obscene levels. At its height it's possible the Eldar population was in the tredecillions (albeit according to a Daemon), which explains why the Eldar moan about "dying out" even though their population is "merely" in the billions.
Good points about the Craftworlders being technologically less impressive than the Dark Eldar, but there's an important bit to point out. The Dark Eldar aren't using pre-Fall tech. Pre-fall Tech was presumably principally psychically activated (seeing as the dregs of that is what the craftworlders use). I'm sure bits and pieces were still functional and built upon (or retrofitted with regular controls), but DEldar technology is almost wholly new.
To be honest, that jsut makes them all the more impressive. Not only do they have better technology than the already technologically advanced craftworlders, they have better technology that they built almost entirely from scratch. It's a massive feat for anyone in the technologically stagnant 40k universe, and is one of the reasons that in the long run I can see the Dark Eldar being odds on for becoming a truly dominant power. They're the only race (aside from the Tyranids) with a genuinely credible R&D effort.
I'm certainly intrigued by the idea that the majority of the eldar population could have been webway-based. Although as far as I can tell there's no actual fluff sentence stating that to be the case, there's no actual reason that couldn't have been the case, allowing the simultaneous existence of DAoT mankind and the eldar as a dominant power. The only little stumbling block in the idea is the fact that the webway mutes a soul's effect on the warp, and if the majority of eldar were in the webway it would have been much harder to birth Slaanesh. Two options for that:
1. While the majority of the eldar population was in the webway, they still had a sizeable materium-bound population that was still large enough to spawn a warp-god.
2. They were so numerous, and so depraved that they spawned a warp-god through the barely-permeable membrane of the webway
The latter option, if true, is frankly impressive. It's like the difference between shattering a wine glass by singing, and shattering a wine glass by singing through a ball-gag (this is the pre-Fall kinky eldar after all...). The first one does make a lot of sense though, especially given the fluff of craftworlds returning to planets to save surviving eldar, and the depiction of eldar worlds in Asurmen.
Ynneadwraith wrote: I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.
Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.
We have seen the remnants of the Empire's technology- it's the Dark Eldar. The Craftworlders are a bunch of luddite cultists who escaped the Fall, the Dark Eldar are the direct successor of the Empire. The Dark City itself was made with a special machine constructed just before the fall that allowed one to create whatever they imagined using the power of the warp. Then there's the ridiculous life extension technologies of the Dark Eldar that allow them to be resurrected from a single finger or toenail being saved, black hole bombs, superior stealth technology, and virtually supreme mastery over biology. Although it's questionable if the Empire actually did reign supreme over the Human Federation(s), considering DAOT humans were slinging about firepower and war machines that even the Necrons would be pressed to equal (they do, but it's rare even for them).
In addition the majority of the Eldar population was not in the Materium. The Eldar Empire was largley situated in the Webway, existing in a proverbial neverland which doesn't actually take up physical space and allowed them to expand to obscene levels. At its height it's possible the Eldar population was in the tredecillions (albeit according to a Daemon), which explains why the Eldar moan about "dying out" even though their population is "merely" in the billions.
Good points about the Craftworlders being technologically less impressive than the Dark Eldar, but there's an important bit to point out. The Dark Eldar aren't using pre-Fall tech. Pre-fall Tech was presumably principally psychically activated (seeing as the dregs of that is what the craftworlders use). I'm sure bits and pieces were still functional and built upon (or retrofitted with regular controls), but DEldar technology is almost wholly new.
To be honest, that jsut makes them all the more impressive. Not only do they have better technology than the already technologically advanced craftworlders, they have better technology that they built almost entirely from scratch. It's a massive feat for anyone in the technologically stagnant 40k universe, and is one of the reasons that in the long run I can see the Dark Eldar being odds on for becoming a truly dominant power. They're the only race (aside from the Tyranids) with a genuinely credible R&D effort.
I'm certainly intrigued by the idea that the majority of the eldar population could have been webway-based. Although as far as I can tell there's no actual fluff sentence stating that to be the case, there's no actual reason that couldn't have been the case, allowing the simultaneous existence of DAoT mankind and the eldar as a dominant power. The only little stumbling block in the idea is the fact that the webway mutes a soul's effect on the warp, and if the majority of eldar were in the webway it would have been much harder to birth Slaanesh. Two options for that:
1. While the majority of the eldar population was in the webway, they still had a sizeable materium-bound population that was still large enough to spawn a warp-god.
2. They were so numerous, and so depraved that they spawned a warp-god through the barely-permeable membrane of the webway
The latter option, if true, is frankly impressive. It's like the difference between shattering a wine glass by singing, and shattering a wine glass by singing through a ball-gag (this is the pre-Fall kinky eldar after all...). The first one does make a lot of sense though, especially given the fluff of craftworlds returning to planets to save surviving eldar, and the depiction of eldar worlds in Asurmen.
The Webway wouldn't have anything to do with making the spawning of a warp god problematic, instead it makes it easier. In the Path of the Eldar series the Eldar have to be careful within the webway due to the presence of daemons which can and have breached it. Ultimately nothing is safe from daemonic influence and the presence of Chaos, and the webway being part of the warp should make it all the more weaker (although not as bad as literally entering the warp like standard imperial FTL). But even Necron hyperspace, which they use for FTL, teleportation, and pocket dimensions is compromised. Nowhere is safe.
The Webway wouldn't have anything to do with making the spawning of a warp god problematic, instead it makes it easier. In the Path of the Eldar series the Eldar have to be careful within the webway due to the presence of daemons which can and have breached it. Ultimately nothing is safe from daemonic influence and the presence of Chaos, and the webway being part of the warp should make it all the more weaker (although not as bad as literally entering the warp like standard imperial FTL). But even Necron hyperspace, which they use for FTL, teleportation, and pocket dimensions is compromised. Nowhere is safe.
Doesn't the Webway protect the Dark Eldar somewhat from the leeching of their souls by Slaanesh which is why they are so keen on hiding out in it?
The Webway wouldn't have anything to do with making the spawning of a warp god problematic, instead it makes it easier. In the Path of the Eldar series the Eldar have to be careful within the webway due to the presence of daemons which can and have breached it. Ultimately nothing is safe from daemonic influence and the presence of Chaos, and the webway being part of the warp should make it all the more weaker (although not as bad as literally entering the warp like standard imperial FTL). But even Necron hyperspace, which they use for FTL, teleportation, and pocket dimensions is compromised. Nowhere is safe.
Doesn't the Webway protect the Dark Eldar somewhat from the leeching of their souls by Slaanesh which is why they are so keen on hiding out in it?
This was what I was building on. It's established that the webway mute's one's psychic presence, hence why the Dark Eldar hide out in there. That would make spawning Slaanesh harder, but not necessarily impossible (either a split population with planetary and webway populations which is highly likely given the picture we have already, or the eldar were simply that depraved that they birthed a warp-god through the veil of the webway).
Dark Eldar may have had some old blueprints to fall back on. If the Eldar created or were gifted with a lot of their technology when fighting the Necrons, they would have had an interest in knowing what tech would work on a Warded tomb world or against pariahs.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Dark Eldar may have had some old blueprints to fall back on. If the Eldar created or were gifted with a lot of their technology when fighting the Necrons, they would have had an interest in knowing what tech would work on a Warded tomb world or against pariahs.
True, although there's no evidence they were any more technologically privelidged than the craftworlders at that point. If there are blueprints to be had, i'd expect the trading vessels to have them for potential trade purposes over the pleasure-junkies in Commorragh...
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Dark Eldar may have had some old blueprints to fall back on. If the Eldar created or were gifted with a lot of their technology when fighting the Necrons, they would have had an interest in knowing what tech would work on a Warded tomb world or against pariahs.
True, although there's no evidence they were any more technologically privelidged than the craftworlders at that point. If there are blueprints to be had, i'd expect the trading vessels to have them for potential trade purposes over the pleasure-junkies in Commorragh...
From Thorpe's 'Jain Zar : Storm of Silence':
Spoiler:
‘I have no idea,’ confessed Maensith. ‘We do not have spirit stones to channel the skeinpower for our ships. There is no infinity circuit to be corrupted – the wards either keep the daemons out of the ship or they don’t. Those in the second situation don’t have a chance to pass on their tales…’
‘No spirit stones? How do you power the ships? You don’t use anything as crude as… fission or plasma?’ The words were spoken as if discussing a revolting bodily function.
‘Our ships use the same energy as yours – in a way. We just refine the psychic energy slightly differently. Terror, agony, despair. They make soulstuff quite pliable, you know. Expended, unfortunately, but useful for a time.’
‘That’s barbaric.’
‘More barbaric than trapping the essence of our ancestors in ancient circuits and using their spirits to power the lights? Please, don’t try to be moral. I accept what I do, and so should you. I even confess that it is not simply cruel necessity, but a source of pleasure. We were created to be dominant, to enslave others. You don’t think the empire we lost in the Fall was built on peaceful negotiation, do you? To accept otherwise is to assume the craftworld fallacy of subservience.’
So both subraces use same powersource - as Asuryani started to use soulstones combined with ancient matrix tech (all but forgotten by the Fall) so Drukhari found their own ways to harness same power of Skein (and know how to use soulstones too...but it's just no fun). Both branches adapted and innovated from scavenged remnants of fallen society.
And btw while Carftworlds should had blueprints and workshops - Webway settlements would have actual 'industrial' base far above their actual demands - and libraries/databases too (if Aeldari still used something non-psychic by that time for knowledge storage - but proto-Drukhari would be as psychic as craftworlders for some time before it became taboo).
PS By now thread looks more 'Aeldari pre- and post-Fall'
Back to the kastelans, maybe they somehow breached the webway, due to the omnissiahs will (dolmen gates maybe?) they got in, which should be cannon if only for rule of cool.
john27 wrote: Back to the kastelans, maybe they somehow breached the webway, due to the omnissiahs will (dolmen gates maybe?) they got in, which should be cannon if only for rule of cool.
The Webway would just kill them or seal them in. Although Dolmen Gates are incredibly stupid.
And btw while Carftworlds should had blueprints and workshops - Webway settlements would have actual 'industrial' base far above their actual demands - and libraries/databases too (if Aeldari still used something non-psychic by that time for knowledge storage - but proto-Drukhari would be as psychic as craftworlders for some time before it became taboo).
I suspect that immediately post-fall, the Eldar equivalents of our steam museums today suddenly became immensely popular; as the various survivors scavenged their ancient tech base for items they could adopt and develop in a post-Fall world.
Some strange Eldar hybrid mix of Fallout and Necromunda probably ensued in the Webway.
Yeah I prefer the option, if they must be changed, that they're intelligent enough to problem solve effectively but not intelligent enough (or programmed to) formulate their own commands (which fits with their rules as well).
Thus, if someone programmed a 'x person is designated target, exterminate with prejudice', and that person fled the system then they will walk onto the next Imperial vessel trvelling in that direction (discovered because being old tech they're probably capable of speaking to each other), and flying there themselves.
Who's going to try and stop a 30ft death robot if they want to board your ship?
The Kastellan is a machine smart enough to know they'll let you go anywhere if you act like you belong there. There is nothing so stealthy in the universe as a bored expression, a glance at the watch and a heavy sigh.
"Sir, the 30m death robot says it doesn't have all day."
"Just let it aboard and we'll find the paperwork later."
Reminds me of an excerpt in a Pratchett novel where it posits that you can basically get anywhere you want if you march somewhere with purpose, visibly clutching an important looking piece of paper in your hands...
The secret to bypassing any security is to walk fast, carry a clipboard, frown at it, and have a facial expression that looks like you’ll fire anyone who questions you.
For added power, wear a high-vis vest or white (always white, contractors wear white usually) hard hat.
Verviedi wrote: The secret to bypassing any security is to walk fast, carry a clipboard, frown at it, and have a facial expression that looks like you’ll fire anyone who questions you.
For added power, wear a high-vis vest or white (always white, contractors wear white usually) hard hat.
Conversely, put on your best vacant expression, sweep the floor with a broom and just edge your way to wherever it is you need to go. If anyone stops you, simply smile at them in bemused benevolence in an attempt to convince them that even if you do wander somewhere you're not meant to you're too thick to actually notice anything. Floors have to get swept in restricted areas after all
Verviedi wrote: The secret to bypassing any security is to walk fast, carry a clipboard, frown at it, and have a facial expression that looks like you’ll fire anyone who questions you.
For added power, wear a high-vis vest or white (always white, contractors wear white usually) hard hat.
Conversely, put on your best vacant expression, sweep the floor with a broom and just edge your way to wherever it is you need to go. If anyone stops you, simply smile at them in bemused benevolence in an attempt to convince them that even if you do wander somewhere you're not meant to you're too thick to actually notice anything. Floors have to get swept in restricted areas after all
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