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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.

Third option is that the Eldar were so powerful humanity dared not invade their territory and so the Eldar turned inward because there was no threat to them. Humanity spreading so much doesn't conflict with that if the Eldar didn't care.

That doesn't gel with what little we know though, and how the eldar behave now, they are extremely jealous of there power and almost pathologically incapable of admitting they are not masters of the galaxy, I can only imagine that during there age of strife they were much much worse, arrogance is the eldars defining trait, if they could stop it, they would not have allowed the mon'kieh to spread across the stars.

I'm trying to get as much info and extrapolate what I can from what little we have, and it just doesn't support eldar being all powerful, just very powerful, but not powerful enough to beat dark age humans, nor do I believe dark age humans would have been able to totally defeat the eldar of the time.

It's almost as if some sort of galactic catastrophe has changed their perspective on guarding their power

To be honest, either options could be equally possible, although I do tend to sway to the side of 'the eldar let humanity spread throughout the galaxy because you don't overly care if termites have built another hive somewhere when you're sitting on the top floor of your skyscraper pleasure-dome'.

There's certainly evidence that the eldar were far more laissez-faire when it came to other species pre-Fall. There's instances where eldar from the empire would spend time among the 'primatives' of the galaxy in order to try and gain some understanding of what hardship of any sort is like. That certainly implies that they were on far less xenophobic in general, and more likely to tolerate other species scrabbling around in the dirt around their glorious (and insular) empire.

Remember, this was a time in the galaxy where everyone (humans included) were far less xenophobic. DAoT mankind even had a Federation-style alliance with a number of xenos species (which subsequently turned on them during the Old Night, spawning the rampant xenophobia we see today).

In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.

pm713 wrote:
In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.

Very true. It was what the Emperor witnessed during the Old Night that fuelled gis xenophobia. Presumably he was content to cavort with xenos (or let humanity cavort with xenos under his watch) prior to then.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.

Very true. It was what the Emperor witnessed during the Old Night that fuelled gis xenophobia. Presumably he was content to cavort with xenos (or let humanity cavort with xenos under his watch) prior to then.

Honestly I think the Emperor just wanted to not share anything. He doesn't seem very kind. Or smart. Or sane.....

pm713 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:
In fairness several Xenos species stood by their allies until the Imperium. The xenophobia is a product of the Emperor.

Very true. It was what the Emperor witnessed during the Old Night that fuelled gis xenophobia. Presumably he was content to cavort with xenos (or let humanity cavort with xenos under his watch) prior to then.

Honestly I think the Emperor just wanted to not share anything. He doesn't seem very kind. Or smart. Or sane.....

I absolutely agree with you...but in this instance 'don't trust aliens' is probably one of the soundest pieces of advice you could give in the 40k universe.

Orks: pop your head because it's fun
Necrons: shoot you with their guns that flay you one atom at a time, for little other reason than that you're alive
Tyranids: eat you
Kroot: eat you
Tau: indoctrinate you into serving the greater good of the Tau
Eldar: pretend to be your friend while steering your destiny towards one where you get eaten/flayed/head popped rather than they do
Dark Eldar: like Orks...but oh so much more inventive...
Hrud: generally alright...until enough of them get into one place and everything around you starts inexplicably decaying

In fairness most minor species are probably fine being left alone. Eldar don't do that much if you're nice to each other and aren't messing about with Chaos. But some Xenos are undeniably unfriendly. Except Orks who seem friendly but still want to kill you. They're just cheery about it.

pm713 wrote:
In fairness most minor species are probably fine being left alone. Eldar don't do that much if you're nice to each other and aren't messing about with Chaos. But some Xenos are undeniably unfriendly. Except Orks who seem friendly but still want to kill you. They're just cheery about it.

Fine being left alone until they get big enough to do something about the horrendously xenophobic Imperium, at which point they'll probably learn the lesson that you kill or be killed in the 40k universe. Of course it's a cyclical thing, where if the Imperium were more tolerant then the wouldn't foster so many enemies, but the xenophobia is so well entrenched in the 40k universe it's basically the only sane choice.

The idea that the eldar don't do that much to you if you're nice to them is probably pure naivety on the part of the Imperium. 'Don't do that much' involves subtly manoeuvring events you can't even see yet let alone predict the outcome of to ensure that the next Waaagh to sweep through your area of space wipes out your species rather than kills a dozen eldar, all the while acting friendly to your face and harping on about how you need to join forces to defeat Chaos.

They're the single most insidious alien species humanity has faced yet. At least daemons have the decency to look horrible and evil while they whisper their lies into your ears.

In another world, in another universe, I'm sure they'd get along much better. In the 40k universe with the threats that exist, the eldar's collective view of humanity is 'meatshield' and nothing more. To believe otherwise means that their war is half won already

Man I love insidious eldar none of this wishy-washy derivative space elf stuff.

I meant it as an 'if' situation more than anything. Like if the Imperium wasn't horrible minor races would just be peaceful and fine.
As things are they're probably still peaceful a fair bit because that prolongs their existence because they're low down the threat list.

Personally I think Eldar would be completely peaceful with the Imperium if they weren't a threat. They'd have no reason to fight them and it costs lives so there's a big reason not to do it. But again xenophobe IoM = meatshield IoM.

pm713 wrote:
I meant it as an 'if' situation more than anything. Like if the Imperium wasn't horrible minor races would just be peaceful and fine.
As things are they're probably still peaceful a fair bit because that prolongs their existence because they're low down the threat list.

Personally I think Eldar would be completely peaceful with the Imperium if they weren't a threat. They'd have no reason to fight them and it costs lives so there's a big reason not to do it. But again xenophobe IoM = meatshield IoM.

Oh absolutely the Imperium is the cause of the vast majority of its own problems

In fact, we've got evidence that the eldar were (for the most part) completely peaceful with mankind when they weren't a threat during the height of the eldar empire.

chyron wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Eldar turned very insular but this still does not explain why they "allowed" humanity to completely surround them, tactically very unsound, we also know that eldar had planet and solar system ending weapons, so did humanity, so given all of The above the most logical conclusion is that either mutually assured destruction stopped major wars, or, eldar could not stop humanity, that had comparable tech breed much faster and occupied a much much larger % of the galaxy.

I guess more important is other thing - why, despite their MILLIONS of years headstart , Eldar didn't colonized most of Galaxy? Humans did it in just few millenias, several ORDERS of magnitude less than Eldar history...

For all we know, they did. Then, thirty million years ago, they started flocking to the big cities. Ten million years ago they entered their leisure state, where the core worlds gave Eldar everything they could ever want, leaving their colonies underfunded, underpopulated and forgotten. Perhaps the decadent end stage of their fall lasted for thousands of years, plenty of time for the DAOT human expansion, a flash in the pan out in the sticks to coked out cosmopolitan Eldar. The difference in time scales between the DAOT and the Eldar empire might mean the two were never in competition at their respective heights.

We know Eldar had enough planets to give a lot to their version of crazy end of the world people.

 Formosa wrote:
That doesn't gel with what little we know though, and how the eldar behave now, they are extremely jealous of there power and almost pathologically incapable of admitting they are not masters of the galaxy, I can only imagine that during there age of strife they were much much worse, arrogance is the eldars defining trait, if they could stop it, they would not have allowed the mon'kieh to spread across the stars.

I'm trying to get as much info and extrapolate what I can from what little we have, and it just doesn't support eldar being all powerful, just very powerful, but not powerful enough to beat dark age humans, nor do I believe dark age humans would have been able to totally defeat the eldar of the time.

I thought it was only really Biel'tan that couldn't accept not being rulers of the galaxy? Either way, the Imperium is massively different to DAoT humanity in mindset and there's not much reason to assume the Eldar wouldn't also have changed a great deal. I don't see it has far fetched that the Eldar, having turned inwardly, wouldn't have cared much about a species colonising the parts of the galaxy they didn't care about. I feel like the presence of uncolonised Maiden Worlds suggests that they had stopped caring about the rest of the galaxy.

pm713 wrote:I meant it as an 'if' situation more than anything. Like if the Imperium wasn't horrible minor races would just be peaceful and fine.

...

Personally I think Eldar would be completely peaceful with the Imperium if they weren't a threat. They'd have no reason to fight them and it costs lives so there's a big reason not to do it. But again xenophobe IoM = meatshield IoM.

To be fair those minor races aren't a threat to the Imperium. Wiping them out early stops them from being a danger further down the line. Any opponent which is capable of contesting serious Imperial power was always going to be hostile regardless of how diplomatic the Imperium was. Even the Tau were aggressively expansionistic before the Damocles Crusade.

The Eldar might have been more inclined to be peaceful (and might try diplomacy instead of force to remove Imperial presence from Tomb Worlds etc) but they'd still be inclined to direct their enemies onto the Imperium. At the least I'd see it as a sort of cold war between them.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.

Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.

The eldar existed during humanities Dark Age of Technology, and yet their dominance was never questioned. Humans controlled most of the galaxy, had an army of thinking robots that could destroy planets and suns, and yet knew they had 0 chance of challenging the pre-fall eldar.

The pre-fall eldar also fought with sentient battlemachines. With the webway, they probably kept their fleet and army concentrated in one place, and just jumped wherever in the galaxy it was needed all at once.

Either
It was all in the core systems and destroyed by the creation of she who thirsts
or
It's sitting in corner of Commorragh and no one has the psykic power to activate it.

The latter makes for some interesting short story potential.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

In fact, we've got evidence that the eldar were (for the most part) completely peaceful with mankind when they weren't a threat during the height of the eldar empire.

BTW there's something strange in Thorpe's "Asurmen":

‘To honour those that could not enjoy such times,’ Illiathin snapped back. ‘Generations that lived and died on starships to seed the world we inhabit. Forefathers that travelled the cold gulf between stars to harness the webway gates that stretch from one end of civilisation to the other. Millions that died fighting wars against countless mon-keigh species, dying to create peace for those that came after. We should remember them, not emulate them.’

As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.

chyron wrote:
As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.

Mon-keigh isn't a human specific term (Codex: Eldar (3rd ed.), pg.46).

As well the quote doesn't specify a generation. I thought it meant the original Eldar who founded and spread the Empire.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

chyron wrote:
As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.

Mon-keigh isn't a human specific term (Codex: Eldar (3rd ed.), pg.46).

I thought it was pretty clear that Mon-keigh is supposed to be read as monkey and that the Eldar are just being elitist and dismissive towards a species they consider a step above monkeys.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I'm more bored by how many "mysterious allies show up on the eve of battle and leave without a word" circumstances we're getting. I think everybody but the Imperial Guard has 'em at this point.

Well, guard kind of could use sly marbo.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:

chyron wrote:
As far as we know "mon-keigh" is phonetical derivative from 'mankind' applied by Eldar to humankind - so either there were significant human-eldar wars during DAoT (not 'pest control' style) or just pre-Fall 'mon-keigh' became at least synonimous to older eldar generic word for 'xenos'.

Mon-keigh isn't a human specific term (Codex: Eldar (3rd ed.), pg.46).

I thought it was pretty clear that Mon-keigh is supposed to be read as monkey and that the Eldar are just being elitist and dismissive towards a species they consider a step above monkeys.

It probably is a joke that it sounds like monkey but it's definitely all younger races. Tau, Squats, Kroot or whatever. They're all Mon-Keigh.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.

Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.

We have seen the remnants of the Empire's technology- it's the Dark Eldar. The Craftworlders are a bunch of luddite cultists who escaped the Fall, the Dark Eldar are the direct successor of the Empire. The Dark City itself was made with a special machine constructed just before the fall that allowed one to create whatever they imagined using the power of the warp. Then there's the ridiculous life extension technologies of the Dark Eldar that allow them to be resurrected from a single finger or toenail being saved, black hole bombs, superior stealth technology, and virtually supreme mastery over biology. Although it's questionable if the Empire actually did reign supreme over the Human Federation(s), considering DAOT humans were slinging about firepower and war machines that even the Necrons would be pressed to equal (they do, but it's rare even for them).

In addition the majority of the Eldar population was not in the Materium. The Eldar Empire was largley situated in the Webway, existing in a proverbial neverland which doesn't actually take up physical space and allowed them to expand to obscene levels. At its height it's possible the Eldar population was in the tredecillions (albeit according to a Daemon), which explains why the Eldar moan about "dying out" even though their population is "merely" in the billions.

The Dark Eldar are hardly the successors of the Empire considering pretty much all it's technology is useless to them. As well I recall one of the DE novels stating that a soul is required for resurrecting someone which is distinctly DE rather than Imperial Eldar.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.

Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.

We have seen the remnants of the Empire's technology- it's the Dark Eldar. The Craftworlders are a bunch of luddite cultists who escaped the Fall, the Dark Eldar are the direct successor of the Empire. The Dark City itself was made with a special machine constructed just before the fall that allowed one to create whatever they imagined using the power of the warp. Then there's the ridiculous life extension technologies of the Dark Eldar that allow them to be resurrected from a single finger or toenail being saved, black hole bombs, superior stealth technology, and virtually supreme mastery over biology. Although it's questionable if the Empire actually did reign supreme over the Human Federation(s), considering DAOT humans were slinging about firepower and war machines that even the Necrons would be pressed to equal (they do, but it's rare even for them).

In addition the majority of the Eldar population was not in the Materium. The Eldar Empire was largley situated in the Webway, existing in a proverbial neverland which doesn't actually take up physical space and allowed them to expand to obscene levels. At its height it's possible the Eldar population was in the tredecillions (albeit according to a Daemon), which explains why the Eldar moan about "dying out" even though their population is "merely" in the billions.

Good points about the Craftworlders being technologically less impressive than the Dark Eldar, but there's an important bit to point out. The Dark Eldar aren't using pre-Fall tech. Pre-fall Tech was presumably principally psychically activated (seeing as the dregs of that is what the craftworlders use). I'm sure bits and pieces were still functional and built upon (or retrofitted with regular controls), but DEldar technology is almost wholly new.

To be honest, that jsut makes them all the more impressive. Not only do they have better technology than the already technologically advanced craftworlders, they have better technology that they built almost entirely from scratch. It's a massive feat for anyone in the technologically stagnant 40k universe, and is one of the reasons that in the long run I can see the Dark Eldar being odds on for becoming a truly dominant power. They're the only race (aside from the Tyranids) with a genuinely credible R&D effort.

I'm certainly intrigued by the idea that the majority of the eldar population could have been webway-based. Although as far as I can tell there's no actual fluff sentence stating that to be the case, there's no actual reason that couldn't have been the case, allowing the simultaneous existence of DAoT mankind and the eldar as a dominant power. The only little stumbling block in the idea is the fact that the webway mutes a soul's effect on the warp, and if the majority of eldar were in the webway it would have been much harder to birth Slaanesh. Two options for that:

1. While the majority of the eldar population was in the webway, they still had a sizeable materium-bound population that was still large enough to spawn a warp-god.
2. They were so numerous, and so depraved that they spawned a warp-god through the barely-permeable membrane of the webway

The latter option, if true, is frankly impressive. It's like the difference between shattering a wine glass by singing, and shattering a wine glass by singing through a ball-gag (this is the pre-Fall kinky eldar after all...). The first one does make a lot of sense though, especially given the fluff of craftworlds returning to planets to save surviving eldar, and the depiction of eldar worlds in Asurmen.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I'm firmly in the 'lost everything just like the IoM' camp with the Eldar. Whether it's through physically losing the ability to construct it, or not being able to use it.

Pretty sure it's not headcanon although I don't have a source, but eldar nowadays basically have to massively fetter their psychic potential to stay hidden from Slaanesh. It could well be that their greatest technologies need more psychic force to function than is possible to exert for the eldar in 40k.

We have seen the remnants of the Empire's technology- it's the Dark Eldar. The Craftworlders are a bunch of luddite cultists who escaped the Fall, the Dark Eldar are the direct successor of the Empire. The Dark City itself was made with a special machine constructed just before the fall that allowed one to create whatever they imagined using the power of the warp. Then there's the ridiculous life extension technologies of the Dark Eldar that allow them to be resurrected from a single finger or toenail being saved, black hole bombs, superior stealth technology, and virtually supreme mastery over biology. Although it's questionable if the Empire actually did reign supreme over the Human Federation(s), considering DAOT humans were slinging about firepower and war machines that even the Necrons would be pressed to equal (they do, but it's rare even for them).

In addition the majority of the Eldar population was not in the Materium. The Eldar Empire was largley situated in the Webway, existing in a proverbial neverland which doesn't actually take up physical space and allowed them to expand to obscene levels. At its height it's possible the Eldar population was in the tredecillions (albeit according to a Daemon), which explains why the Eldar moan about "dying out" even though their population is "merely" in the billions.

Good points about the Craftworlders being technologically less impressive than the Dark Eldar, but there's an important bit to point out. The Dark Eldar aren't using pre-Fall tech. Pre-fall Tech was presumably principally psychically activated (seeing as the dregs of that is what the craftworlders use). I'm sure bits and pieces were still functional and built upon (or retrofitted with regular controls), but DEldar technology is almost wholly new.

To be honest, that jsut makes them all the more impressive. Not only do they have better technology than the already technologically advanced craftworlders, they have better technology that they built almost entirely from scratch. It's a massive feat for anyone in the technologically stagnant 40k universe, and is one of the reasons that in the long run I can see the Dark Eldar being odds on for becoming a truly dominant power. They're the only race (aside from the Tyranids) with a genuinely credible R&D effort.

I'm certainly intrigued by the idea that the majority of the eldar population could have been webway-based. Although as far as I can tell there's no actual fluff sentence stating that to be the case, there's no actual reason that couldn't have been the case, allowing the simultaneous existence of DAoT mankind and the eldar as a dominant power. The only little stumbling block in the idea is the fact that the webway mutes a soul's effect on the warp, and if the majority of eldar were in the webway it would have been much harder to birth Slaanesh. Two options for that:

1. While the majority of the eldar population was in the webway, they still had a sizeable materium-bound population that was still large enough to spawn a warp-god.
2. They were so numerous, and so depraved that they spawned a warp-god through the barely-permeable membrane of the webway

The latter option, if true, is frankly impressive. It's like the difference between shattering a wine glass by singing, and shattering a wine glass by singing through a ball-gag (this is the pre-Fall kinky eldar after all...). The first one does make a lot of sense though, especially given the fluff of craftworlds returning to planets to save surviving eldar, and the depiction of eldar worlds in Asurmen.

The Webway wouldn't have anything to do with making the spawning of a warp god problematic, instead it makes it easier. In the Path of the Eldar series the Eldar have to be careful within the webway due to the presence of daemons which can and have breached it. Ultimately nothing is safe from daemonic influence and the presence of Chaos, and the webway being part of the warp should make it all the more weaker (although not as bad as literally entering the warp like standard imperial FTL). But even Necron hyperspace, which they use for FTL, teleportation, and pocket dimensions is compromised. Nowhere is safe.

 Wyzilla wrote:


The Webway wouldn't have anything to do with making the spawning of a warp god problematic, instead it makes it easier. In the Path of the Eldar series the Eldar have to be careful within the webway due to the presence of daemons which can and have breached it. Ultimately nothing is safe from daemonic influence and the presence of Chaos, and the webway being part of the warp should make it all the more weaker (although not as bad as literally entering the warp like standard imperial FTL). But even Necron hyperspace, which they use for FTL, teleportation, and pocket dimensions is compromised. Nowhere is safe.

Doesn't the Webway protect the Dark Eldar somewhat from the leeching of their souls by Slaanesh which is why they are so keen on hiding out in it?

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The Webway wouldn't have anything to do with making the spawning of a warp god problematic, instead it makes it easier. In the Path of the Eldar series the Eldar have to be careful within the webway due to the presence of daemons which can and have breached it. Ultimately nothing is safe from daemonic influence and the presence of Chaos, and the webway being part of the warp should make it all the more weaker (although not as bad as literally entering the warp like standard imperial FTL). But even Necron hyperspace, which they use for FTL, teleportation, and pocket dimensions is compromised. Nowhere is safe.

Doesn't the Webway protect the Dark Eldar somewhat from the leeching of their souls by Slaanesh which is why they are so keen on hiding out in it?

This was what I was building on. It's established that the webway mute's one's psychic presence, hence why the Dark Eldar hide out in there. That would make spawning Slaanesh harder, but not necessarily impossible (either a split population with planetary and webway populations which is highly likely given the picture we have already, or the eldar were simply that depraved that they birthed a warp-god through the veil of the webway).

Dark Eldar may have had some old blueprints to fall back on. If the Eldar created or were gifted with a lot of their technology when fighting the Necrons, they would have had an interest in knowing what tech would work on a Warded tomb world or against pariahs.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Dark Eldar may have had some old blueprints to fall back on. If the Eldar created or were gifted with a lot of their technology when fighting the Necrons, they would have had an interest in knowing what tech would work on a Warded tomb world or against pariahs.

True, although there's no evidence they were any more technologically privelidged than the craftworlders at that point. If there are blueprints to be had, i'd expect the trading vessels to have them for potential trade purposes over the pleasure-junkies in Commorragh...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Dark Eldar may have had some old blueprints to fall back on. If the Eldar created or were gifted with a lot of their technology when fighting the Necrons, they would have had an interest in knowing what tech would work on a Warded tomb world or against pariahs.

True, although there's no evidence they were any more technologically privelidged than the craftworlders at that point. If there are blueprints to be had, i'd expect the trading vessels to have them for potential trade purposes over the pleasure-junkies in Commorragh...

From Thorpe's 'Jain Zar : Storm of Silence':

So both subraces use same powersource - as Asuryani started to use soulstones combined with ancient matrix tech (all but forgotten by the Fall) so Drukhari found their own ways to harness same power of Skein (and know how to use soulstones too...but it's just no fun). Both branches adapted and innovated from scavenged remnants of fallen society.
And btw while Carftworlds should had blueprints and workshops - Webway settlements would have actual 'industrial' base far above their actual demands - and libraries/databases too (if Aeldari still used something non-psychic by that time for knowledge storage - but proto-Drukhari would be as psychic as craftworlders for some time before it became taboo).

PS By now thread looks more 'Aeldari pre- and post-Fall'

Sweet! What a wonderful piece of fluff

I love how the Dark Eldar points out the hypocrisy of the Craftworlder.

Solid conclusions you've brought from it too (and you're right this is a pretty solid thread drift!).