So the reintroduction of 2nd edition Safe/Unsafe plasma modes has skewed the game into plasmaspam central.

I think the problem is giving both the +1S and +1D on overheat. That's in the majority of cases giving +1 to wound (brings you to 3+ to wound vs T7 vehicles and 2+ to wound vs T4 MEQs) and double damage, which is a hell of a bonus when even if you kill yourself you're making your points back regardless.

What if overcharging let you pick between +1S or +1S instead of both +1S and +1D? But also make overcharging AP-4. Make plasma more versatile while still toning it down.

I think the main problem with plasma is the possibility of re-roll 1s. Having access to re-rolls makes plasma overcharge extremely safe while I'd be ok with +1S and +1D if with a 1 the model dies no matter what.

Just avoid that re-roll on plasma weapons or anything that could kill the firing model if rolls a 1.

Easy access to deep strike is the real huge issue and makes plasma even better.

If models that use plasma weapons couldn't deep strike for free and re-roll failed hit of 1s, plasma weapons would be good but fair.

True, out of the three classical special weapons, Plasma, Melta and Flamer, only Plasma is even usable after a deep strike. Melta doesn't get it's laughably crap bonus and flamers can't reach at all.

If plasma killed the dude if they roll a 1, even if you allow them to re-roll and possibly hit (so you hit with the shot but still overheat and are slain), would that work?

Change the rule to "On a hit roll of 1, even if re-rolled, the bearer is slain after all of this weapon’s shots have been resolved."

What about if you dropped the Strength of both modes by 1? That seems pretty reasonable to me.

I say make it remove a model for every 1.

This way rerolls don't prevent the damage but you'll still get to do damage with the stuff you paid for.

It would actually make them more of a one shot wonder cause rapid firing the whole squad with rerolls would be very deadly to boths sides.


Dark angels are going to be far too strong if they can just reroll away their overheats.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
I say make it remove a model for every 1.

This way rerolls don't prevent the damage but you'll still get to do damage with the stuff you paid for.

It would actually make them more of a one shot wonder cause rapid firing the whole squad with rerolls would be very deadly to boths sides.


Dark angels are going to be far too strong if they can just reroll away their overheats.

AM's already too strong with reroll order and cheaper plasmas.

Make natural 1's overheat with armor saves allowed at its Ap -3. In most cases this would mean you need 3+ save for a chance of save on 6. It also doesnt make sense that plasma overheat better against -hit modifiers.

One could also got the way of the first Land Raider Terminus Ultra. If you roll a 1 on your first roll, the model may still reroll to see if it hits and does something, but after resolving the attack, the model suffers the mortal wound.
Other than that... I don't know. Not the biggesst fan of the two-profile plasma weapons. I don't think they really needed the better-yet-more-dangerous profile, but eh, whatever. I really like the idea of a more dangerous overheating, though.

You can argue there's more issues with the other weapons.
1. Flamers are garbage. There's already a lot of threads on that.
2. Melta Guns are absurdly expensive at 17 points.
3. Grav Guns are somehow more expensive for no more benefit.

I would say:

Normal use - 1s cause a wound, saves allowed.

Overcharged - mortal wound.

That being said, with all the reroll 1s available to marines, everyone just overcharges plasma all the time with little to no fear.

I think that's the big problem - overcharged plasma is too strong, too cheap, with too little risk with very common buffs. Toss in risk-free deep striking rapid firing plasma guns and it gets a tad ridiculous.

A minigame I play is to shame (I call it sissy safe plasma when not overcharged) imperial players into overcharging their plasma so they can kill their own units, even with rerolling 1s. Managed to do it twice (almost killed azarael) in an apoc game.

 Lum wrote:
Not the biggesst fan of the two-profile plasma weapons.

Same. That was like the *essence* of Plasma - tangible risk for potentially great reward.

M.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
True, out of the three classical special weapons, Plasma, Melta and Flamer, only Plasma is even usable after a deep strike. Melta doesn't get it's laughably crap bonus and flamers can't reach at all.

If plasma killed the dude if they roll a 1, even if you allow them to re-roll and possibly hit (so you hit with the shot but still overheat and are slain), would that work?

Change the rule to "On a hit roll of 1, even if re-rolled, the bearer is slain after all of this weapon’s shots have been resolved."

Thats just punish more elite armies and allows for cheap plasma suicide units to remain nearly the same. I'm a little salty that the Tau "safe" version of Plasma is now just a worse version of the Imperial plasma.

Plasmas need to overheat on a rolled 1 before modifiers and rerolls. And then I think it ought to have either a range of 18" or an Assault 1 profile with a range of 24".

Apart from that, I think meltas ought to go down in price. And flamers should be Assault 6, R8", S3, AP0, D1. That would give them a nice buff against hordes.

no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.


Galas is true that removing models hurts elite more, but if you change it to mortal wounds, hellblaster squads are too strong.



Mabey do this:
Overheat: On an attack roll or 1 with this weapon (after modifiers) the unit suffers 1 mortal wound. You can choose to overheat this weapon and gain +1str and damage. If you do, every 1 on the dice deals 2 mortal wounds to the unit.


Bit more complex, but it certainly makes it more fair over the different armies that can use it.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.

6 S3 attacks is better than D6 S4 attacks against anything not Toughness 6 or better. I think it would be the way to go for flamers.

6 auto-hits is too strong, and if you have to roll to hit its too weak.

keep it strength 4 like its always been and just increase hits againgst more models like flamer type weapons should.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
6 auto-hits is too strong, and if you have to roll to hit its too weak.

keep it strength 4 like its always been and just increase hits againgst more models like flamer type weapons should.

6 S3 autohits is only mildly stronger than D6 S4 autohits. It is a good rule. If you want to buff a weapon against hordes, then you decrease S and increase number of shots.

Your proposal will slow the game down every time multiple flamers is in play, as the defending player will insist on removing models from each single weapons attacks, in order to minimize the accumulated damage.

I also like the 6 S3 autohits. Flamers used to be templates with a chance of hitting 8-10 guys if they were really close to each other. D6 or D6 + 1 is too low for 9 points and there's no reason to roll a dice to determine the number of hits on a weapon that used templates in the previous editions but never scattered.

Blast and large blast changed into D3 or D6 hits makes sense, a template into a D6 or D3 (hello burnas) roll absolutely not.

pismakron wrote:
Plasmas need to overheat on a rolled 1 before modifiers and rerolls. And then I think it ought to have either a range of 18" or an Assault 1 profile with a range of 24".

As a Death Guard player, I'd be fine with this as I get to keep my 18" double tap

Also for any flamer changes, I think it's important to consider changes to other flamer-type weapons to keep them consistent. The plague spitters on bloat-drones for example.

I would try making the overcharged profile "Heavy 1" instead of "Rapid Fire 1"
That would cut down on deep strike spam (no double tap) and make plasmas more situational.

It seriously might just be easier to fix the other weapons that have issues.

Overcharged plasma could have its ranged lowered by maybe 4" or so.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It seriously might just be easier to fix the other weapons that have issues.

All of the other weapons are only bad because plasma is so good in the 9" Deep Strike meta.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It seriously might just be easier to fix the other weapons that have issues.

All of the other weapons are only bad because plasma is so good in the 9" Deep Strike meta.

Agreed.

Make flamers 10" so they're able to be used against the 9.X" charges and people might take them. Or just say leave the range as is but say that "due to the indiscriminate nature of a Flamer's fire jet it may always be used in Overwatch, regardless of range - simply make D6 attacks with this weapon against the charging unit without checking range."

Make Melta cost less than Rapid-Firing, longer-ranged Plasma and people might take them. My Melta Vets are bored in their box.

Grenade Launchers have always been the red-headed stepchild so no amount of fixing will help them!

A couple of tweaks and more variety might be seen on the table.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Make flamers 10" so they're able to be used against the 9.X" charges and people might take them. Or just say leave the range as is but say that "due to the indiscriminate nature of a Flamer's fire jet it may always be used in Overwatch, regardless of range - simply make D6 attacks with this weapon against the charging unit without checking range."

This isn't necessarily a problem specific to flamers, GW really just needs to errata Overwatch to not exclude weapons; i.e- all weapons can fire, but use either the current range to the charging unit, or their maximum range, whichever is nearer.

Personally, I don't like the fact that they are still S7/8. It was fine in previous editions when Imperial and Chaos plasma was stronger than Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar plasma as it came with the drawback of killing the model on 1's but now you can use it without that drawback and it's still stronger than all Xenos plasma. I'd much rather it was brought down to S6, S7 when overcharged.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
It seriously might just be easier to fix the other weapons that have issues.

All of the other weapons are only bad because plasma is so good in the 9" Deep Strike meta.

That's not the only reason though.

Flamers are 7 points, which is 3.5 Storm Bolters. That obviously needs to go down.
Grav Guns have no real benefit. Make them Assault 2, and now they compete with the more dangerous Plasma.
Melta Guns just need a super big price cut. 12 sounds correct.
Grenade Launchers...make them 3 points I guess?

Is that all of them?

What exactly are the things spamming plasma that are so good as to require a nerf to a weapon accross all armies?

With eldar being so strong and wave serpants basically turning plasma into worthless piles of crap - I don't actually see an issue here.

What I do see(agreeing many many posting in this thread) is a lot of other weapons being useless Grav/Melta/flamers - buff those weapons - don't nerf plasma.

Plasmas are not overpowered at all. The easy combination plasma plus re-rolls of 1s and/or free deep strike is broken.

Let's just kill the model on the result of a 1 if he overcharded and limit deep strike to a few units. In fact the access of free deep strike to tons of units is one of the major problems of 8th edition.

Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.

Remove random hits from flamers
Add flamer rule: "When this weapon is fired at a unit, it scores 1 auto-hit for each model in that unit in range."

Bam.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.

Remove random hits from flamers
Add flamer rule: "When this weapon is fired at a unit, it scores 1 auto-hit for each model in that unit in range."

Bam.

Nah - thats OP. Though it might actually make drop pods viable with the blood angels double move ability . Sterngaurds with 2 heavy and 8 combi could basically destroy every model within 8 inches of them ahahahah.

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
no flamers don't need to go down in strength. They just need +1 hit per 8 models or something.

Remove random hits from flamers
Add flamer rule: "When this weapon is fired at a unit, it scores 1 auto-hit for each model in that unit in range."

Bam.

Nah - thats OP. Though it might actually make drop pods viable with the blood angels double move ability . Sterngaurds with 2 heavy and 8 combi could basically destroy every model within 8 inches of them ahahahah.

I definitely don't see it being OP. It would make them much less effective against elite/single models, and much more effective against hordes, which is honestly how it should be.

Also BA don't have a double move ability that would work like that.

 Blackie wrote:
Plasmas are not overpowered at all. The easy combination plasma plus re-rolls of 1s and/or free deep strike is broken.

Let's just kill the model on the result of a 1 if he overcharded and limit deep strike to a few units. In fact the access of free deep strike to tons of units is one of the major problems of 8th edition.

Deep strike is actually very weak in most cases. So that's not the problem. It's big guns like plasma on cheap, expendable models. Marines can't abuse this nearly as well as scions.

Plasma is not overpowered at all any more. The one great place to get it for cheap is gone. Imperial Guard and Elysians with BS3+ now pay 6 points more than before the codex and Chapter Approved.

I take almost zero plasma guns these days.

 ph34r wrote:
Plasma is not overpowered at all any more. The one great place to get it for cheap is gone. Imperial Guard and Elysians with BS3+ now pay 6 points more than before the codex and Chapter Approved.

I take almost zero plasma guns these days.

Probably still too cheap for what it can do.

Martel732 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Plasma is not overpowered at all any more. The one great place to get it for cheap is gone. Imperial Guard and Elysians with BS3+ now pay 6 points more than before the codex and Chapter Approved.

I take almost zero plasma guns these days.

Probably still too cheap for what it can do.

Yeah, taking 0 isn't a good choice.

Martel732 wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Plasmas are not overpowered at all. The easy combination plasma plus re-rolls of 1s and/or free deep strike is broken.

Let's just kill the model on the result of a 1 if he overcharded and limit deep strike to a few units. In fact the access of free deep strike to tons of units is one of the major problems of 8th edition.

Deep strike is actually very weak in most cases. So that's not the problem. It's big guns like plasma on cheap, expendable models. Marines can't abuse this nearly as well as scions.

It's weak only for elite assault units because they are expensive ones and probably have to crush into expendable screeners anyway. For cheap assault units like boyz or kommandos or shooty units with plasmas deep strike is an auto take.

Units like scions shouldn't be able to deep strike for their cost, simple. IMHO the whole game should go into the direction of rewarding units embarked on transports rather than spamming deep striking units.

Plasma units end up shooting at the same screens. It is screenhammer 40K one way or the other. Plasma is just one of the factors. Non-plasma needs to be cheaper, that's all. And make scions pay for grav chutes.

Plasma is fine, because it ended up getting balanced out with the change to TvS to wound. In previous editions plasma pretty much wounded anything on a 2+ and ontop of that would ignore 2+ armor saves. The draw back, was it had a chance to blow up in your face.

In 8th, its wounding most stuff on a 3+ still allowing armor saves, and does not blow up in your face, if you over charge you are wounding T4 and below on a 2. But still can blow up. It all comes out in the wash. On top of that, all s6 and s7 weapons across the board got a nerf because of how wounding works now. If anything plasma is actually weaker in this edditon then is was in the previous. The only reason people spam it, is because its the best weapon to take. Flamer reach is to short, and its just a glorified boltgun and has a 33% chance of doing the same number of shots as a boltgun, the melta is a 1 shot high str weapon, that again is str, so most stuff you are wounding on 2, but you need to be point blank. Grav is lol grav now.

jade_angel wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

Oh, damn - I forgot that Mortal wounds bleed over. I was going with the assumtion it only frags the model using it, but using the D6 in case it was in the hands of a character, monster or vehicle (basically, a multiwound model)

 Stormonu wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

Oh, damn - I forgot that Mortal wounds bleed over. I was going with the assumtion it only frags the model using it, but using the D6 in case it was in the hands of a character, monster or vehicle (basically, a multiwound model)

Plasma guns causing D6 mortal wounds?!?! Ummmmmm yeah sure, i totally support this. Just ignore my 9 black knights that would be able to dish out 18d6 mortal wounds each shooting phase.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
Slightly different tangent - would it be better if Plasma overheat dealt mortal wounds instead of instakill?

1D3 Mortal wounds for a Plasma pistol?
1D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma gun?
2D6 Mortal wounds for a Plasma cannon?

I like the idea of mortal wounds instead of instakill, but those numbers need tweaking - one overloaded plasma cannon incinerates a whole 10-man squad? Really?

Oh, damn - I forgot that Mortal wounds bleed over. I was going with the assumtion it only frags the model using it, but using the D6 in case it was in the hands of a character, monster or vehicle (basically, a multiwound model)

Plasma guns causing D6 mortal wounds?!?! Ummmmmm yeah sure, i totally support this. Just ignore my 9 black knights that would be able to dish out 18d6 mortal wounds each shooting phase.

Yeah, to themselves, on overheat. Re-read the proposal. It's too punishing, not OP.

That said, D6/2D6 mortal wounds to the firing model is probably too much even for vehicles - a lot of them have tweaks so that they don't actually instakill themselves with overheating plasma as it stands now. But for those that do still auto-die, it would be an improvement - risking death for most vehicles isn't worth it for 2 damage, but risking some damage might be.

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Oh I see it now. Honestly if it allocated wounds to the whole squad no, no one would ever take plasma again. The risk would be far to greater then the reward. Damage to the model itself is fine, but the whole sauad? No. Like I said, plasma is fine, if anything it's weaker then it was in the previous edition. The thing that makes it strong is the ability to reroll. Nerfing plasma won't fix that

Martel732 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Make Scions pay a tax per unit if they wanna Deep Strike. A flat price would make MSU less appealing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And make scions pay for grav chutes.

This is a terrible, unfluffy, and unprecedented idea.

Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Make Scions pay a tax per unit if they wanna Deep Strike. A flat price would make MSU less appealing.

Primaris Reivers pay for deep strike. I'll love for Scions to pay for Deepstrike. That mean my Scions on Tauroxes Primes don't pay the same for being in a vehicle instead of deepstriking, so I can stop feeling stupid for doing that.

Yeah, it would be an improvement I think.

How much is Deep Strike worth? 1PPM? 2?

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, it would be an improvement I think.

How much is Deep Strike worth? 1PPM? 2?

edit: reivers should be 2 ppm for grav or grapple. i dont have the book on hand. but yeah they probably should be paying for it. (well whats the difference between a scion and say something comparable like vets? points wise)

 Infantryman wrote:
Yeah, it would be an improvement I think.

How much is Deep Strike worth? 1PPM? 2?

Deepstrike is a situational upgrade that depends on the context of the unit. Deepstrike don't has the same value to Mortarion than to a unit of Tactical Marines than to a unit of specialist that can carry 5 special weapons in a 5 man unit compared with a basic troop with no special weapons whatsoever.

I think Tempestus Scions should be made 2 PPM cheaper, and Deepstrike should cost 4-5 points per model.

Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Of course they have. And is very cheap for the amount of special weapons saturation they can have with Command Squads.

But at the same time, it punishes people that want to use Scions in vehicles, because as you said, +1 armour isn't worth 3ppm in a infantry model like that.

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Scions quite obviously have deep-strike already built into their cost. It is ridiculous to me to think otherwise, should we ask that question of the dozens of other free deep strike units in the game?

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Scions quite obviously have deep-strike already built into their cost. It is ridiculous to me to think otherwise, should we ask that question of the dozens of other free deep strike units in the game?

I dont have my book on hand but dont assault marines get a discount if they take their packs off?

its just a little something something

also i didnt think rangers deep struck but infiltrated.

 Desubot wrote:


also i didnt think rangers deep struck but infiltrated.

same thing

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Can we be certain Scions don't have deep-strike already folded into their cost, given that it is an innate ability and not an option to pay for?

They're 9ppm, vets are 6ppm, and I doubt +1 Armor Save is worth 3ppm...

Scions quite obviously have deep-strike already built into their cost. It is ridiculous to me to think otherwise, should we ask that question of the dozens of other free deep strike units in the game?

Well Assault Marines DO pay for Deep Strike to be fair.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kastelen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


also i didnt think rangers deep struck but infiltrated.

same thing

NO it is not.

What do people think about the relationship between Tau and Imperial plasma?
Tau plasma used to be weaker but safer. It made sense fluff-wise and balance-wise
Now Tau plasma is weaker and less flexible. Imperial plasma is naturally stronger, plus it can overcharge to be a better version of it's old incarnation.

Would you guys still take Imperial plasma if it was just S6/7 instead of S7/8? It would still be hands down better than Tau, but at least it wouldn't be comically so.

 ph34r wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Making scions obey all the same conventions other units do? Oh, the pearl clutching.

Right, sorry, I must have forgot that

Terminators pay for deep strike
Assault marines pay for deep strike
Battle suits pay for deep strike
Rangers pay for deep strike
Trygons and raveners pay for deep strike
Warp spiders pay for deep strike

Should I continue this dumb list any further? Almost nobody in the entire game pays extra points to be able to deep strike. Primaris Reivers. That's it.

What are you talking about? Several of those things are paying for deep strike. It is factored into their base cost, because it's part of their base abilities. Whether you think they pay the right amount for it is a different matter.

Talinsin wrote:
What do people think about the relationship between Tau and Imperial plasma?
Tau plasma used to be weaker but safer. It made sense fluff-wise and balance-wise
Now Tau plasma is weaker and less flexible. Imperial plasma is naturally stronger, plus it can overcharge to be a better version of it's old incarnation.

Would you guys still take Imperial plasma if it was just S6/7 instead of S7/8? It would still be hands down better than Tau, but at least it wouldn't be comically so.

I dunno i recall some people arguing for the assault plasma for hellblasters

besides. its a wee bit different for tau as they are more based on taking specific things for specific targets (like fusion for tanks/monsters(now)) plasma for elites, missiles for mid range, and burst for chaff. not that they are all equially taken or anything its just the prime concept before actual game balance.

imperial plasma for some reason became an amazing jack of all trades weapon. but if tau plasma became a jack then most of there weapons wouldnt be taken (or taken even less some how) also odd question how much is the tau plasma anyway?

Desubot
Not sure how to quote but...
Tau plasma is 11 pts (on a BS4+ platform), otherwise identical profile except -1 S and no overcharge.

mmm Pretty weaksauce.

its kinda expensive all for just the ap.

Desubot wrote:

(well whats the difference between a scion and say something comparable like vets? points wise)

Well, 3 points but the Vets are Elite units.

Because.

Galas wrote:
But at the same time, it punishes people that want to use Scions in vehicles, because as you said, +1 armour isn't worth 3ppm in a infantry model like that.

How so? I was looking to take Scions in my generic 2k list, and was considering tying them to Valks.

 Infantryman wrote:

Desubot wrote:

(well whats the difference between a scion and say something comparable like vets? points wise)

Well, 3 points but the Vets are Elite units.

Because.

Galas wrote:
But at the same time, it punishes people that want to use Scions in vehicles, because as you said, +1 armour isn't worth 3ppm in a infantry model like that.

How so? I was looking to take Scions in my generic 2k list, and was considering tying them to Valks.

Well would you be able to add another unit or weapon upgrade or something for 3x the number of scions you took?

I'd probably go with:
Plasma gun low power, 24", rapid fire 1, S6, ap-2, D1
Plasma gun supercharge, 24", rapid fire 1, S7, ap-3, D2, overheat on natural 1 on first roll, model takes 1 mortal wound

Cannon would be heavy d3, 2 mortal wound but with a clause that it only applies to the model.

I find it funny that people say flamers are too short when they're the same range as before. I get that it's because of deep strike. Maybe they shouldn't have a random number of hits. Make it 8 - 1 hit per inch away so you get 6 hits at 2 inches. Or better yet just bring back templates and blasts. They worked fine for most situations. It was only when you had lots of them with rerolls or a player being picky about what was touched that problems arose. Go back to 3rd edition (I think) where you just place it, count models then roll to hit for each model.

Zustiur wrote:
I'd probably go with:
Plasma gun low power, 24", rapid fire 1, S6, ap-2, D1
Plasma gun supercharge, 24", rapid fire 1, S7, ap-3, D2, overheat on natural 1 on first roll, model takes 1 mortal wound

Cannon would be heavy d3, 2 mortal wound but with a clause that it only applies to the model.

I find it funny that people say flamers are too short when they're the same range as before. I get that it's because of deep strike. Maybe they shouldn't have a random number of hits. Make it 8 - 1 hit per inch away so you get 6 hits at 2 inches. Or better yet just bring back templates and blasts. They worked fine for most situations. It was only when you had lots of them with rerolls or a player being picky about what was touched that problems arose. Go back to 3rd edition (I think) where you just place it, count models then roll to hit for each model.

That's exactly why they say flamers are too short. Their primary use was as Charge defense. Now they're useless against Deep striking chargers.

Sorry, but plasma are not really an issue. They are good but not game breaking.

I can possibly see a point increase long term if they become a problem. But currently non issue.

Even the emo angels of tzeentch, with more plasma weapons than secrets are not really an issue.

Seriously plasma shouldn't he touched, is failry balanced as it is. Just nerf the re-roll of 1s spam and the deep strike. Re-rolls in general and the availability of deep strike are real issues in this edition, they are the problems that should be fixed, not plasmas.

Increasing the cost of Plasma weapons is the easiest way to do it, since the thing about Plasma is its effective/points.

Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.

That would be pretty disasterous with overheat

though i like the idea of fully changing modes.

I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5

The best solution to plasma is to simply remove it from the Astra Militarum wargear list. Or, make it cost appropriately for their models, or raise the cost of their models.

It's not like marines are spamming plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5

Dropping melta range bonuses would make guard even stronger.

 Desubot wrote:

Wagguy80 wrote:
Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.

That would be pretty disasterous with overheat

though i like the idea of fully changing modes.

Tau ion rifles already do this except instead of 2 damage they get Heavy D3 shots (in other words more chances of dying to overheat death), so... it's got my vote.

Besides, wouldn't they overheat on twos instead of ones? Because plasma overheats on ones and 1-1=0 whereas 2-1=1 ( a 1 is always a fail but that doesn't affect overheat) Basically 1/6 times anyway except that it bypasses reroll ones.

I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5

+1 and add that when within half range you double the strength. (at that range the model's going to die anyway, might as well make it worth it)

The best solution to plasma is to simply remove it from the Astra Militarum wargear list. Or, make it cost appropriately for their models, or raise the cost of their models.

It's not like marines are spamming plasma.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaconCatBug wrote:
I've had a change of heart, Meltaguns should always get to roll 2D6 and pick the highest for damage and also be AP-5


Dropping melta range bonuses would make guard even stronger.

That's seems a bit shortsighted. Meltas are subpar but buffing them buffs IG more than other factions so you're against it? Just adjust Guard a bit till it's fine. (but not to the point Guard are bad)
For starters, bumping Guard infantry to 5ppm and forcing Scions to pay for deep strike would do a lot to mitigate spam.

 Marmatag wrote:

It's not like marines are spamming plasma.

No, dark angels will not spam plasma. Never. They have a 1 CP stratagem which increases the damage of their plasma guns by 1. And they reroll 1s when they didnt move in the movement phase. So, you will never ever see a 10 model devastator squad with plasma cannons overcharging when they didnt move. I mean, who would seriously do that ?

Oh wait, dark angels arent marines, so you're right

The problem isnt plasma in general---the problem is its the only special weapon that is about the right point cost.

All the other special weapons are way to many points for what you get out of them. That is why everyone is taking mainly only plasma.

Plasma guns for marines at 13 pts are honestly pointed about right, as you have to bring another 100+ pt model to make them somewhat safe in overcharge mode.....and if you dont you usually end up losing a model or two a game from overheats.

Also CPTs/re-rolls can be killed off with psychic powers/snipers--or even be pulled away by the needs of the game to be in a different area.

chaos45 wrote:

Plasma guns for marines at 13 pts are honestly pointed about right, as you have to bring another 100+ pt model to make them somewhat safe in overcharge mode.....and if you dont you usually end up losing a model or two a game from overheats.

A SM captain is 77 pts. Dark angels have rerolling 1s for free when they didnt move in the movement phase. Its their chapter tactic.

I think the idea was to make flamers score more than 1 hit on a single model

chaos45 wrote:
The problem isnt plasma in general---the problem is its the only special weapon that is about the right point cost.

All the other special weapons are way to many points for what you get out of them. That is why everyone is taking mainly only plasma.

Plasma guns for marines at 13 pts are honestly pointed about right, as you have to bring another 100+ pt model to make them somewhat safe in overcharge mode.....and if you dont you usually end up losing a model or two a game from overheats.

Also CPTs/re-rolls can be killed off with psychic powers/snipers--or even be pulled away by the needs of the game to be in a different area.

Overcharging plasma shouldn't be safe. Otherwise it may as well be the only setting. Which is the problem. There's actually very little risk in overcharging, so the setting that should be used sparingly is the only one that's ever used as it is.

For crying out loud, guys...

“Oh no! Marines have something that can kill stuff! Nerf bat! Nerf bat!”

Seriously, Bolters are useless, and short of resorting to vererans as an overpriced delivery system, marines have limited options that can offer any kind of weight of fire with special weapons.

So we’ve got Hellblasters now, and we can reroll the 1’s if we pay the points for an aura and keep it nearby (which limits our options with the tactical asset that HQ represents). Do you realize how vulnerable plasma overcharge is to the negative hit modifiers they are spamming all the new codexes with?

Honestly, Power Armour is nowhere near as effective as it used to be, Grav got nerfed into the ground, and only has very limited, specific application now, Drop Pods more than doubled in price, and even basic marines themselves are significantly overcosted. The army in general is decidedly second tier. Very few winning “marine lists” are actually marine armies. The overwhelming majority are Imperial soup, the majority of those featuring strong guard contingents. Exactly zero marine lists without Gulliman have placed top 3 in ITC this year.

I don’t wanna troll or be rude, but with the strength of the Guard and Chaos books, and crap like Wraithguard in Wave Serpents, and Dark Reapers (that get to shoot AGAIN when they remove a unit and disappear back out of LOS after doing so, before you can even shoot back) about to take over the meta, you guys wanna beef about plasma?...

Sure guys, whatever you say.

plasma isn't just on marines sir. A lot of people that have a problem with it have said problem because of the non-marine bodies that it can ride on.

For marines it's just a good option, and the other special weapons are way overpriced, so it becomes the only realistic option.

Wagguy80 wrote:
Should just make it so when overcharging plasma it's profile changes to heavy 1.

So in other words you would probably just rapid fire the non overcharged as

1) you wouldnt get minus for moving
2) you would get two shots for 2d and no risk of overheating, vs -1 and a risk of over heating for 2d.


Plasma is not a issue, and the fact someone saying Dark Angels will be broken with too much plasma is laughable.

All the hate moaning about deepstriking is just poor, is plasma really broken because you arent denying deepstrike and bubble wrapping etc? 9inch deepstrike is so easy to predict and if you take a unit that can do so easy to mitigate.

The worst ones IMO are things like from the shadows as you cannot mitigate them and they have the utility to get most places they need to go but again in most cases you can manipulate that and have "some" control...

What about factions without cheap bubble wrap units?

i can see with heavy elite armies (GK, Tau Battle Suits, Monster Tyranid list,) that have small or minimum amount of screens that overcharging plasma will be a nightmare.

I mean even terminators drop fast when hit by overcharged plasma, or even primaris cause of the 2 damage.

At the moment, plasma for some armies is just bargain bin cheap to run effectively while on other armies it is actually a pretty solid choice compared to other options, which are still viable in their own ways

It's the fact that GW can change the pts for individual armies to better balance them out that is the problem here. Plasma should be considered a powerful but finite option for all armies. Points cost that reflect this philosophy should be reflective of all armies.

It just means that some plasma are more uncommon on elite forces (SM/CSM, ect.) and should be a more finite resource and rarer for other armies.

This is probably something that would need an army by army tweak, to reflect it's finite supply

Deadawake1347 wrote:
Overcharging plasma shouldn't be safe. Otherwise it may as well be the only setting. Which is the problem. There's actually very little risk in overcharging, so the setting that should be used sparingly is the only one that's ever used as it is.

This is the primary issue. Overcharging plasma should represent an actual risk to the wielder. I like the idea of making it cause 1 mortal wound to the bearer on a natural roll of a 1 before re-rolls. No instant death for rolling a 1, but more likely to go wrong if you choose to fire it on high power.

Darsath wrote:

Deadawake1347 wrote:
Overcharging plasma shouldn't be safe. Otherwise it may as well be the only setting. Which is the problem. There's actually very little risk in overcharging, so the setting that should be used sparingly is the only one that's ever used as it is.

This is the primary issue. Overcharging plasma should represent an actual risk to the wielder. I like the idea of making it cause 1 mortal wound to the bearer on a natural roll of a 1 before re-rolls. No instant death for rolling a 1, but more likely to go wrong if you choose to fire it on high power.

Only problem is that some platforms that fire plasma have more than one wound, so it's damaging on one wound models but fizzes out on bigger multi wound models.

I would say do the 1 is slain now, but also D3 mortal wounds to the squad to represent the backlash. D6 for a bigger variation of plasma and higher increments of D6 for even bigger variations. Single model units that have it should make a boom aura around them that effects units, so it gives people incentives not to get them so close.

Re-roll 1's make this risk into a rarity. So i would say for every dice roll of 1 counts as an overheat (it even says in the CRB that a dice roll and a final result are indeed different terms). That way you can still re-roll, but that model is going to die, regardless of if it hits with that shot or not.

These changes, and i wouldn't mind the points as they stand, because it sounds cheap, but the risk is proportional to their price now

Model slain with a result of 1, regardless of the number of its wounds. D3 mortal wounds if it has the "vehicle" keyword instead.

No re-rolls of any kind allowed when the player rolls a 1 for overcharged plasma shots.

Just make melta cheaper. Problem largely fixed. Make IG units such as scions and guardsmen more expensive.. Problem fixed.

You don't need to take away rerolls of 1 with all the -1 to hit in the game. That's the reason I'm not all in on plasma as it is.

 Blackie wrote:
Model slain with a result of 1, regardless of the number of its wounds. D3 mortal wounds if it has the "vehicle" keyword instead.

No re-rolls of any kind allowed when the player rolls a 1 for overcharged plasma shots.

Well, with that wording plasma would vanish from every list overnight. Way too harsh

WindstormSCR wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Model slain with a result of 1, regardless of the number of its wounds. D3 mortal wounds if it has the "vehicle" keyword instead.

No re-rolls of any kind allowed when the player rolls a 1 for overcharged plasma shots.

Well, with that wording plasma would vanish from every list overnight. Way too harsh

Not true, I usually bring plasma guns in my space wolves lists without the wolf lord neabry to give them the re-roll. Plasma guns even with the basic profile, without overcharging or overcharging but with some risk, are still very good weapons for 13 points on models that hit on 3s. Plasma pistols are useful as well for 7 points.

Plasma spam would vanish, and it's actually a good thing. A few plasma guns in an imperium list would still be nice.

In regards to the flamer being awful at over watch due to people being able to charge from out of its range, Something that I don't get is why can't overwatch if they are out of your range ?

Isn't it supposed to represent you shooting them as they charge at you so why does it matter if they start out of your range? Since are they not running into your range to get withing an inch of you so they can hit you ? (from a thematic point of view)

 Rydria wrote:
In regards to the flamer being awful at over watch due to people being able to charge from out of its range, Something that I don't get is why can't overwatch if they are out of your range ?

Isn't it supposed to represent you shooting them as they charge at you so why does it matter if they start out of your range? Since are they not running into your range to get withing an inch of you so they can hit you ? (from a thematic point of view)

Well on the same note you also can't overwatch a unit charging out from behind a wall where you couldn't see them. It's just one of those situations where the rules and reality don't perfectly mesh. Just like the entire idea that a unit suddenly fires their guns faster because someone has shouted that they are coming to attack them in melee, but they are A-OK with someone just walking up to outside an inch and firing flamers/meltas and tossing a grenade into their unit.