i keep reading how the custodes dex is basically a slap in the face to grey knights and i dont understand why.
they're completely different so why the comparison?

Because they're closest equivalent to the Grey Knights. Both armies can only really play mega elite armies.

Having fought them they feel really similar. Low model count with high durability and deals multiple damage.

Why do people keep posting 40K topics in a section explicitly highlighted as not for 40K?

Who knows

Because, as others mentioned, they are elite armies. High points cost per model and low model count.

Certain degree of salty tears due to Custodes getting it 'more right' than what GW did with GKs.

 AaronWilson wrote:
Because they're closest equivalent to the Grey Knights. Both armies can only really play mega elite armies.

Not only are their play styles similar, they have units with similar stat lines and battlefield roles. Custodian guard have a better stat line than GK Paladins but have been cheaper since 8th started. Additionally their codex contains many rules/strategems/abilities that have either existed at one point in some past iteration of the GK codex or would benefit GK in the same manner as Custodes.

They are similar in some ways but there is also a lot of differences too.

Low model count, high potency (but low true survivablity) power armor, now in gold instead of silver.
Oh but they are better b/c they are new. Sales

Both armies are basically just "Super Marines", although GKs are silver and Custodes are gold.

They are superficially similar, and because of this people can't wrap their heads around the differences (psychic powers being the elephant in the room, as well as Deep Strike) and so they throw up their hands and assume they are the same.

 Galef wrote:
Both armies are basically just "Super Marines", although GKs are silver and Custodes are gold.

Most GK armies seem closer to Imperial Knights than Custodes - 3 to 6 Grandmaster Nemesis Dreadknights, supporting Astra Militarum chaff and the occasional Stormraven.

At the end of the day though, I'd like to see an army with both. DKs and Custodes bikes for the win!

Back when they were metal, before the Matt Ward codex introduced so much superfluous stuff in order to flesh them out into an 'army', the pregame pitch for Grey Knights was more or less the same as it is for Custodes now: "Hey, I've got these five big guys helping out my army, they're super expensive but they're tough and hit hard." or "My army is these sixteen terminators. Actually I'm just over the points limit, is that ok?"

At least, that's how they seem similar to me.

 Galef wrote:
At the end of the day though, I'd like to see an army with both. DKs and Custodes bikes for the win!

Working on it....

Because they're both big space marines+1 wearing ridiculously ornate to the point of looking goofy armor and swinging giant anime weapons, and for some reason the very same group of people who complain about Daemons in 40k being too fantasy and not enough sci-fi are perfectly OK with them.

For me it's all about the rules/fluff coherency.

GK has always been presented as elite of the elite. But this is not the feeling I have in-game, and Custodes units have better profiles for less points.

 Asmodai wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Both armies are basically just "Super Marines", although GKs are silver and Custodes are gold.

Most GK armies seem closer to Imperial Knights than Custodes - 3 to 6 Grandmaster Nemesis Dreadknights, supporting Astra Militarum chaff and the occasional Stormraven.

This is one of the reasons the Custodes book is annoying to some GK players. They may want to have an army of shiny elite infantry, but they've been handed a Codex containing two playable units, and then here comes along this other book that does shiny elite infantry well, after the GK have already gotten a Codex that proved completely useless in making their shiny elite infantry playable but will still have GW saying "well, they got a Codex recently..." and not giving them any kind of update or fix for years to come.

Because Custodes play like Grey Knights, but better. It's making me want to start Grey Knights - I like an underdog.

Grey Knights definitely got a rough codex with a lack of high end competitive play options, but I don't feel that the Custodes and Grey Knights truly match up in comparisons.

Custodes, to me, feel like an elite close combat army with just a hint of shooting mixed in to support them.

Grey Knights, while also elite and having good melee options, are more all-rounder with good shooting options (not to mention they come with Storm Bolters in an edition where quantity of shots can easily trump quality of shots (Rapid Fire 2 > Rapid Fire 1 with good AP), a wider array of unit options, more options to get up the board quickly, and of course being psykers.

There are definitely is some overlap, but the differences are quite wide and basically I feel that's where my confusion stems from: one is clearly strictly an elite Marine army with all the trappings of being Marines (T4, 1 wound on regular guys, 2 for Terminators) and can never fully break away from that baseline. The other is a faction of ten thousand elite bodyguard for the most powerful person in all of humanity who have to be individually crafted instead of trained and converted in mass.

Even if you wanted them to be exactly the same so the Custodes could tromp all over Grey Knights all day, they won't be. The differences are too great to just go "yup, gold is clearly always better".

Actually we would probably be having this discussion less if GW hadn't dropped the ball and put Sisters of Silence into the codex like the lore depicts. That and T3 in regular power armour that shuts down psychic powers (to an extent) is going to feel very different than T4 psykers in an army.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
i keep reading how the custodes dex is basically a slap in the face to grey knights and i dont understand why.
they're completely different so why the comparison?

Theyre almost an identical army concept. The ultra elite of the most ultra elite, better and more mysterious and bigger and special-er than anyone else. GK's had always been the default go-to for Custodes counts as armies in the past for a reason.

Yeah, there are differences in nuance, but the basic faction concept is identical, hence the comparisons.

They are very different in many ways, for example Custodes are not even Space Marines.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
i keep reading how the custodes dex is basically a slap in the face to grey knights and i dont understand why.
they're completely different so why the comparison?

Theyre almost an identical army concept. The ultra elite of the most ultra elite, better and more mysterious and bigger and special-er than anyone else. GK's had always been the default go-to for Custodes counts as armies in the past for a reason.

Yeah, there are differences in nuance, but the basic faction concept is identical, hence the comparisons.

One is an elite Marine army full of psykers, the other are like half a step below Primarchs in terms of development.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
i keep reading how the custodes dex is basically a slap in the face to grey knights and i dont understand why.
they're completely different so why the comparison?

Theyre almost an identical army concept. The ultra elite of the most ultra elite, better and more mysterious and bigger and special-er than anyone else. GK's had always been the default go-to for Custodes counts as armies in the past for a reason.

Yeah, there are differences in nuance, but the basic faction concept is identical, hence the comparisons.

One is an elite Marine army full of psykers, the other are like half a step below Primarchs in terms of development.

Aye, there are differences, but the same kinds of weapons (lets be real, the differences between a Nemesis Force Staff and a Custodian Spear are no wider than the differences between different edition's iterations of Nemesis Force Weapons) and tactics are broadly employed by and against both, and GKT/Paladins were about the closest things to Custodes until their recent release.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
i keep reading how the custodes dex is basically a slap in the face to grey knights and i dont understand why.
they're completely different so why the comparison?

Theyre almost an identical army concept. The ultra elite of the most ultra elite, better and more mysterious and bigger and special-er than anyone else. GK's had always been the default go-to for Custodes counts as armies in the past for a reason.

Yeah, there are differences in nuance, but the basic faction concept is identical, hence the comparisons.

One is an elite Marine army full of psykers, the other are like half a step below Primarchs in terms of development.

Aye, there are differences, but the same kinds of weapons (lets be real, the differences between a Nemesis Force Staff and a Custodian Spear are no wider than the differences between different edition's iterations of Nemesis Force Weapons) and tactics are broadly employed by and against both, and GKT/Paladins were about the closest things to Custodes until their recent release.

Same kind of melee weapon, but differences in shooting weapons. Grey Knights throw a lot more shots out than Custodes do for the same model counts.

Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

I mean, Grey Knights are Psykers and Custodes are not.

Personally, I'd deploy and play a game completely differently depending on if it was against GK or Custodes. (Mostly surrounding the deployment of my psychic defense, which, because I run a Graia Forge World battalion, is a good chunk of my army).

Both armies can generate a lot of fire power but it’s mostly short range.

I think I compare due to fluff reasons. In the fluff the Emperor sets out to make the ultimate marine via GKs. They are supposed to thrive and defeat the most difficult of enemies. When a daemon incursion happens send in a handful of GKs and sit back and relax you've taken care of it.

Custodes are supposed to guard the Emperor (and Earth) from whatever. I don't know their fluff so I don't know if they're genetically tinkered with or not.

The big issue to me, equipment. Why are GKs getting equipment obviously inferior to Custodes but paying more. The same with troops, GKs get inferior statlines but pay more. Psychic be darned with the nerf that GKs suffered and the pathetic list of other abilities it doesn't even out between GK and Custodes.

/rant

 Primark G wrote:
Both armies can generate a lot of fire power but it’s mostly short range.

Grey Knights will generate twice or more than the Custodes. Custodes have Rapid Fire 1 guns, while Grey Knights have Rapid Fire 2 guns. Add in the other weapons the Grey Knights have (Psilencers for example) and Grey Knights will do more damage in shooting than Custodes do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
The big issue to me, equipment. Why are GKs getting equipment obviously inferior to Custodes but paying more. The same with troops, GKs get inferior statlines but pay more. Psychic be darned with the nerf that GKs suffered and the pathetic list of other abilities it doesn't even out between GK and Custodes.

/rant

I don't know about the equipment exactly, but for bodies it's definitely the psyker tag causing the most problems. Hopefully they see a points drop this year.

Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

If and when FW release 40k rules for the Telemon that is a super ranged weapon platform.

 Primark G wrote:
If and when FW release 40k rules for the Telemon that is a super ranged weapon platform.

And isn't relevant to the current discussion since it has no rules and doesn't make the rest of the army better at shooting, just gives it another shooty dread addition.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

The Bikes actually rock Hurricane Bolters.

One squad of bikes is, when combined, Rapid Fire 18 with 24" max range, so 36 shots within 12". It's 270 points. 10 Strikes with 2 Psilencers are 214 and will get you 32 bolter shots within 12" and 12 Psilencer shots.

So the Grey Knights can do a bit better in volume...but not by a lot.

It is relevant though because it will happen. Of course Custodes are -not- meant to be played SAFH.

 Primark G wrote:
If and when FW release 40k rules for the Telemon that is a super ranged weapon platform.

A shooty Telemon in 30K runs 360 points. No real reason to assume it'll get cheaper and may well be more. Grey Knights can buy Dreadnoughts with Twin Lascannons and Missile Launchers for 162 points, so less than half the cost of the Telemon.

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

The Bikes actually rock Hurricane Bolters.

One squad of bikes is, when combined, Rapid Fire 18 with 24" max range, so 36 shots within 12". It's 270 points. 10 Strikes with 2 Psilencers are 214 and will get you 32 bolter shots within 12" and 12 Psilencer shots.

So the Grey Knights can do a bit better in volume...but not by a lot.

When compared to one unit in the army (or a specific even more elite army build if you go all bikes), yes this is true, but one unit choice doesn't trump the status of the whole army.

I think it’s obvious Custodes are not meant to be played as SAFH.

Primark G wrote:It is relevant though because it will happen. Of course Custodes are meant to be played SAFH.

Primark G wrote:I think it’s obvious Custodes are not meant to be played as SAFH.

Please pick a position before you give us all whiplash.

I alwasy wonder how further GW can take the elite of the elite trope. Space marines are like Guard but better, Grey Knights are like Space Marines but better, Custodes are like Grey Knights but better! I guess whatever sells I suppose.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Primark G wrote:It is relevant though because it will happen. Of course Custodes are meant to be played SAFH.

Primark G wrote:I think it’s obvious Custodes are not meant to be played as SAFH.

Please pick a position before you give us all whiplash.

Not SAFH.

 Frontline989 wrote:
I alwasy wonder how further GW can take the elite of the elite trope. Space marines are like Guard but better, Grey Knights are like Space Marines but better, Custodes are like Grey Knights but better! I guess whatever sells I suppose.

Primarchs are like Custodes but better! The Emperor is like the Primarchs but better!

 pumaman1 wrote:
Low model count, high potency (but low true survivablity) power armor, now in gold instead of silver.
Oh but they are better b/c they are new. Sales

I can't wait until we get the platinum powered armor faction! :/

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
Dawn Eagles are rocking storm bolters no less.

Custodes were around way before GK and have always been portrayed as better than any SM... it’s just the way it is.

Jet Bikes that cost how many Grey Knights each again?

I mean you're not selling me on the idea that Custodes can out shoot Grey Knights quantity wise. Quality, sure, but not quantity.

The Bikes actually rock Hurricane Bolters.

One squad of bikes is, when combined, Rapid Fire 18 with 24" max range, so 36 shots within 12". It's 270 points. 10 Strikes with 2 Psilencers are 214 and will get you 32 bolter shots within 12" and 12 Psilencer shots.

So the Grey Knights can do a bit better in volume...but not by a lot.

When compared to one unit in the army (or a specific even more elite army build if you go all bikes), yes this is true, but one unit choice doesn't trump the status of the whole army.

Umm, I gave you the most cost effective shooting from each Codex. It's a pretty fair comparison.

Most GK's agree our only good units are Dreadknight GM's, Strikes, Paladins and Apothecaries. Custodes seem to agree our only good units so far are Shield Captains and Bikes. Jury is still out on the rest.

Allarus are good too.

 Primark G wrote:
Allarus are good too.

Way too expensive for what they offer. I haven't seen anyone in the Tactics thread really rise to their defense instead of just taking more Bikes.

They are working great for me.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

Not being able to deal with stuff at range? Hurricane Bolters and D2 AP-1 Bolters aren't enough for dealing with threats at range?

Please don't pretend Grey Knights are any better at range combat because they aren't.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

Not being able to deal with stuff at range? Hurricane Bolters and D2 AP-1 Bolters aren't enough for dealing with threats at range?

Please don't pretend Grey Knights are any better at range combat because they aren't.

It depends on the target. Grey Knights are a lot better at shooting chaff through sheer volume (PAGK have around 4x the S4 shots per point that Custodes do), but they're also wildly ineffectual at shooting anything that isn't chaff while Custodes aren't.

So when it comes to shooting Custodes are okay against most things with a Guardsman-sized blind spot, while Grey Knights are crap against most things with the noted exception of T3 chaff.

(He may mean "all-rounder" because Grey Knights can mix weapons freely on their Dreadnaughts while the Custodes have two anti-armour ranged weapons (lascannons on the LR and the melta-missiles)?)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Sure, though to me at least, thats a nuance thing. Neither are really shooting armies, many GK armies through the history of the game have had practically no shooting, and the HH Custodes stuff hasnt been ported over which is where lots of their shooty stuff (and rifle equipped infantry) is.

My point is that Custodes are almost completely a melee only army while GK are more all rounder due to having more tools for dealing with stuff at range while not being bad (though not exceptional because Space Marines) at melee.

Not being able to deal with stuff at range? Hurricane Bolters and D2 AP-1 Bolters aren't enough for dealing with threats at range?

Please don't pretend Grey Knights are any better at range combat because they aren't.

It depends on the target. Grey Knights are a lot better at shooting chaff through sheer volume (PAGK have around 4x the S4 shots per point that Custodes do), but they're also wildly ineffectual at shooting anything that isn't chaff while Custodes aren't.

So when it comes to shooting Custodes are okay against most things with a Guardsman-sized blind spot, while Grey Knights are crap against most things with the noted exception of T3 chaff.

(He may mean "all-rounder" because Grey Knights can mix weapons freely on their Dreadnaughts while the Custodes have two anti-armour ranged weapons (lascannons on the LR and the melta-missiles)?)

Heck, we don't even know which units are gonna be ported over from 30k like GW said they would.

And honestly if taking a LC/ML on a Dread qualifies as AT to him I don't know what else to say.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Frontline989 wrote:
I alwasy wonder how further GW can take the elite of the elite trope. Space marines are like Guard but better, Grey Knights are like Space Marines but better, Custodes are like Grey Knights but better! I guess whatever sells I suppose.

Primarchs are like Custodes but better! The Emperor is like the Primarchs but better!

I completely forgot about Primaris too!

Pecking order!

Infantry < Scions < Space Marines < Deathwatch < Grey Knights < Custodes < Primaris < Primarchs < Emperor

Did I miss anyone?

Primaris should be between Space Marines and Deathwatch. For now we don't have specialized/veteran Primaris units.

You can put conscripts behind Infantry.

No idea about other people - but for me its because Custodes are how Grey Knights should have been going back... 15ish years(?).

Rather than psychic rubbish and psycannons it should just have
just been super elite. Every "marine" is a captain.

Its a bit late now - the genie is out of the bubble and Grey Knights are locked in as "good Thousand Sons with the baby carrier" - but all the way back to 3rd edition that has been my view.

You can put the Chaos Gods after the Emperor.

There, I said it.

 LunarSol wrote:
Pecking order!

Infantry < Scions < Space Marines < Deathwatch < Grey Knights < Custodes < Primaris < Primarchs < Emperor

Did I miss anyone?

Sisters and Skitarri who should fall in between Scions and Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You can put the Chaos Gods after the Emperor.

There, I said it.

Put the C'Tan and Eldar Gods between the Primarchs and the Emperor, Gork and Mor above the Chaos Gods and The Tyranids Hive Mind above everything.

 Galas wrote:
Primaris should be between Space Marines and Deathwatch. For now we don't have specialized/veteran Primaris units.

You can put conscripts behind Infantry.

Yeah, I wasn't totally sure where to drop Primaris. Good call on Conscripts.

This thread is mostly bitter GK players. The thing is they have not been competitive since 5th edition which if my math is correct - that is three editions ago. Time to move on.

 Primark G wrote:
This thread is mostly bitter GK players. The thing is they have not been competitive since 5th edition which if my math is correct - that is three editions ago. Time to move on.

And they say the American education system is failing. Seriously, though, from an outsider's perspective, both are Super Soldiers+, focused on elite infantry while borrowing some transports from the main Space Marine line, and both feature a metallic color scheme. I'm not surprised to see GK players screaming "They took our jobs!"

Wrong - Custodes have their own transports. You might want to read Master of Mankind, it is available from Black Library.

If you're bringing Black Library into this, the last book with GK and Custodes had a passage talking of how much better GK were than Custodes.

At this point GW fethed GK so hard you don't know and obviously don't care.

It does not matter which is better just that they are very different.

This is the guy that said the Marine codex was fine, ladies and gentlemen.

What does that have to do with this topic?

If you look at many of the avatars of people posting salty replies you will notice they probably play GK.

 Primark G wrote:
What does that have to do with this topic?

If you look at many of the avatars of people posting salty replies you will notice they probably play GK.

Grey Knights have gradually gone from competitive, to viable, to bad, to bottom of the berral.

I can see why grey knight players are mad. GW has had 3 editions to get it right, and it feels like they’re still being punished for Matt Ward. Please explain why being a Grey Knights player makes someone less qualified to talk about their problems, or why its odd that a grey Knights thread has a lot of grey knight players in it.

IIRC Custodes have been around longer than either Grey Knights or Deathwatch, and while some sources have contradicted each other (welcome to 40k) Custodes have always been held up as superior individual warriors to Astartes, but lacking the cohesiveness to be as effective on a Chapter or Legion sized scale.

Deathwatch are just veterans drawn together from different Chapters given special training and equipment to tackle a specific Xenos target. They aren’t ‘better’ than other Astartes’ First Companies, they’re just more specialised.

Going back to memories of them in 3rd/4th Ed, I don’t think Grey Knights are actually ‘better’ Space Marines either? They weren’t made by the Emperor but by Malcador on the Emperor’s instruction ‘give me something to counter the daemonic menace’. They used the Emperor’s gene-seed because it was pure and uncorruoptible, but I don’t think there was ever an indication that it gave them more physical prowess. They are certainly rarer than other Astartes because they are effectively all Librarians, but they aren’t said to come from physically superior stock. They have all their psyker and daemon-resisting training, but they also lack training in things like seige warfare and infiltration. They do get superior equipment - partially because of their ties to the Inquisition and a dedicated sheltered Forge World, and partially because their particular specialisation requires such ratified and difficult to produce wargear.

Ultimately I don’t think the lore has ever really supported them being ‘better’ Astartes, but rather another branch of more specialised Astartes with expensive equipment and psyker powers. If you stuck a bunch of Grey Knights and Dark Angels in a room with no armour or equipment but a bunch of swords and said ‘no psychics, now kill each other’ I don’t know of any reason why the Grey Knights would be notably more likely to win. I think people just took their more expensive equipment and specialised rules in-game and changed their head-canon to ‘oh ok, they must be more elite than normal Astartes’. The ‘Ward-ian’ era took this idea and ran away with it, but that’s a much more recent development and I think even that stopped short of saying they’re physically superior.

Primaris though are literally just Astartes+1. As I’ve said before, there’s a reason for all the angst about them.

Now that Custodes - who genuinely are and have always been a completely separate and superior breed to Astartes - have been given rules, it’s understandable that GK fans are a bit cut by having their thunder as the ‘elite’ stolen, similarly to how Marines players were cut by Primaris relegating Marines to ‘second-best’. It really adds salt to the wound that GK got a godawful Codex in the same edition as getting trumped by the ‘true elite’ of the Imperium.

Also, unless GW does something abhorrent like Primaris Custodes, I think this genuinely ends the ‘elite of the elite’ arms race. Custodes have always been held up as top dog - now that they have rules, the only thing that could trump them would be Primarchs, but they’re individually named personalities, not an army.

 Primark G wrote:
If you look at many of the avatars of people posting salty replies you will notice they probably play GK.

Hiya. I mostly play IG. In addition to playing IG, I also have DA, Tyranid, Tau, and GK armies. Tau is probably the smallest, at give or take 1750, but probably only 1250-1500 (and probably less still) worth taking. I'm invested in 40k.

I play GK. I play a lot of things though. I've also been one of the more vocal people to argue against IG nerfs. Having that been said, they're making the argument because they know their own armies, and they're not wrong. GK players are unhappy with the GK codex because it is a bad codex. No one else cares that much, because they don't have to live with it. I'm a pretty practical person in that I've been doing this for enough editions that I just groan and grab the army that isn't terrible this edition and run with that for a while. I can entirely understand why someone would be unhappy about it though. Yeah, everyone unhappy about it has skin in the game. I have some skin in the game, though probably less all things considered. Why are you here?

8th edition GK basicly doubled down on the mistakes of 7th, without offering any improvements and even nerfing what they did get in 7th

The reason people compare greyknights and custodes is that they are both elite, low model count armies.

Greyknight players should be upset, but not because of custodes. Thousand Sons are what the greyknights should have been. GW could have fixed many of the codex's problems by making on the sergeants psykers and lowering the base model price for the rest of the squad. They also should have put ordo malleus inquisitors and their retinues back into the codex to give greyknights cheap scoring troops and some more options.

Now Greyknights can't be fixed without ending up too similiar to Thousand Sons or Custodes.

If the GK codex is bad to me that’s not a good reason to hate on Custodes. Maybe GW intentionally nerfed GK so more players feel inclined to play Custodes now but that is purely speculation. The codex has just dropped and there is no empirical data yet to say Custodes are competitive. Combat wombat has given a good account on the background for both. You can’t make a good argument from a background perspective that GK are overall superior to Custodes either.

 Primark G wrote:
If the GK codex is bad to me that’s not a good reason to hate on Custodes. Maybe GW intentionally nerfed GK so more players feel inclined to play Custodes now but that is purely speculation. The codex has just dropped and there is no empirical data yet to say Custodes are competitive. Combat wombat has given a good account on the background for both. You can’t make a good argument from a background perspective that GK are overall superior to Custodes either.

ultimately, and I say this as a GK AND custodes player, Grey Knights where always the "elite terminator army" army. custodes now eclipses that.

It's also worth noting that Custodes have things GK players wanted. before the 8th ed codex hit, GK players where wish listing jet bikes

orkychaos wrote:
GW could have fixed many of the codex's problems by making on the sergeants psykers and lowering the base model price for the rest of the squad.

Every GK is psyker, rubrics are automatons. Background is in fluff here. You can get those troops by putting them different detachments.

Difference of GK and Custodes are that GK are elite psychic marines, Custodes are mini primarchs without psychic (what I know). GK are pretty similar than their chaos counterpart TS, but there is big difference because chaos. It is like saying Iron Warriors are like Imperial Fist, chaos bring differencies.

GK needs improvements but they should be GK.

I have a feeling the fix for Grey Knights is releasing an Inquisition Codex, something with rules that give great synergy between the two. Similar to how the old Daemonhunters Codex was.

In terms of the difference... it's hard to understand, outside the fluff. I know Custodes are tougher right now, but I really don't see much of a difference.

"why do people keep comparing the custodes codex to grey knights?!"

Because it's another imperium elite army made of terminators. GW could have named them Golden Knights.

Exactly there isn't a difference, the only real difference is that Custodes are better in pretty much every way.

Take a single unit of Alarus (Allarus?) Terminators, then use the stratagem that lets them separate into smaller units. You got a very threatening force that has pretty cost efficient shooting at anything that isn't a GEQ or worse. EVEN THEN they are only marginally worse, because BS2+. Support with Jetbikes with Hurricane bolters if you are that worried, don't forget to take the Jetbike HQ unit for rerolls of 1 to hit! These guys also double as anti-air as well, because they have the fly keyword and with that 14 inch movement they will be hitting what they want on T2. Effectively the Custodes have the old Grey Knight Shunt-Punch now. The Dreadknight was replaced with a Jetbike however.

The biggest downside? They have more wounds concentrated on less models, so they bite the dust with D6(4+) damage weapons, ONLY D6(4+) however, because point for point, they are still more survivable against plasma than even GK paladins because for some reason GK pallies are still more expensive.

There is no niche left, psychic is done better by 1000sons, Boots on the ground CQC is done better by Custodes, Shooting is done better by literally ANY other Imperium faction bar Custodes.

But every unit is still paying premium prices to do something in a mediocre fashion.

I feel like the real salt should be in comparison to Thousand Sons who did everything the Grey Knights should have done, far better.

While Custodes basically out elite the Grey Knights, I feel this is because the Grey Knights have a kind of identity crisis going on.

Grey Knights want to be a melee army, while also being an army that can do a fair amount of shooting (albeit at rapid fire ranges), while also wanting to be a strong psychic army, while also wanting to be a specialist MEQ army.

Basically when you throw ALL of that into a single army there are going to be some problems. Custodes took a different approach by focusing on melee, supplementing it with shooting and ignoring the psychic aspect and the whole "be a Space Marine" thing. This is why they do the elite thing better: their concept focus is stronger making it easier to make the army perform properly as an elite army.

For Grey Knights the MEQ aspect will always pull them down a bit if only because it means that they can't feel more elite than regular Marines due to sharing the same statline, and when trying to make them both solid combatants and ranged fighters at the same time, it gives them the same problem Vanilla marines often have: they're too generalist which means they can't really excel at either as much as we feel they should.

And the psyker thing is done far better (for now) by Thousand Sons, though this is in part to having three psychic disciplines to choose from and the game being more developed by the time their development started.

Basically to make Grey Knights work as an army we need to drop this whole "elite" thing and instead just focus on them being specialists. This means lower points costs and higher body counts Splitting the shooting and melee focuses could also allow units to feel more focused and better designed for their respective jobs instead of trying to push two jobs with no benefits for either.

And lastly while I'd love to see Daemonhunters in the same book, with the ability to throw Imperium units into another detachment it's not like the Grey Knights can't go soup to pull quasi Thousand Sons (less massed psychic powers, but they can bring the better guns this way) via Inquisitors (Quarry rule) and/or Guard (I'm actually considering eventually adding some Grey Knights to my Deimos themed Ad Mech army if the Psyker Spam gets too silly. Well that or some Inquistors and their Assassin friends and/or some Sisters of Silence)

Also, I'd expect anything that the internet says is the only competetive thing in an army to probably get nerfed. From what I've seen over the last couple editions (this one included), just about every "competetive" option is the one that's near, if not actually, broken. So yeah, some things are probably going to see a nerfing at some point with some weaker stuff potentially brought up a bit (likely through points drops).

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Basically to make Grey Knights work as an army we need to drop this whole "elite" thing and instead just focus on them being specialists. This means lower points costs and higher body counts Splitting the shooting and melee focuses could also allow units to feel more focused and better designed for their respective jobs instead of trying to push two jobs with no benefits for either.

This. I totally agree. The beauty is that we already have the units, but we do not feel the difference in the rules: we have Strike Squads, which are the generalist squad (just lile Marines), which could be oriented to be more CC-specialized. We have the Interceptor Squads, which should have <FLY> and be our assault unit, and we have Purgation Squads, which should have more punchy weapons.

A solution would be to retcon the grey knights to be custodes. After all, the custodes have been fighting daemons spilling out of the subway on terra. Why not have the grey knights be the more active custodes running around the galaxy all mysterious.

Just a thought.

Vaercathor wrote:
A solution would be to retcon the grey knights to be custodes. After all, the custodes have been fighting daemons spilling out of the subway on terra. Why not have the grey knights be the more active custodes running around the galaxy all mysterious.

Just a thought.

They actually haven't been fighting daemons all that time as the webway was sealed after 5 years of fighting daemons and traitors in the webway.

Vaercathor wrote:
A solution would be to retcon the grey knights to be custodes. After all, the custodes have been fighting daemons spilling out of the subway on terra. Why not have the grey knights be the more active custodes running around the galaxy all mysterious.

Just a thought.

A better solution would be to write the Grey Knights' rules intelligently instead of writing them like idiots.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Vaercathor wrote:
A solution would be to retcon the grey knights to be custodes. After all, the custodes have been fighting daemons spilling out of the subway on terra. Why not have the grey knights be the more active custodes running around the galaxy all mysterious.

Just a thought.

A better solution would be to write the Grey Knights' rules intelligently instead of writing them like idiots.

Or at least having rules and point values in coherency, between regular SM and Custodes.

GW has this problem where the main focus of points balance is internal to a codex and less consideration is given externally.

While this can push some units to be less commonly seen (due to points enforced rarity) in an army, it really doesn't balance the game properly. Hopefully the fact that their paying attention to tournaments (noting stuff like Commander Spam for T'au) will drag points values more in line with each other over the whole range of the codexes instead of the focus being so heavily internally focused.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
GW has this problem where the main focus of points balance is internal to a codex and less consideration is given externally.

While this can push some units to be less commonly seen (due to points enforced rarity) in an army, it really doesn't balance the game properly. Hopefully the fact that their paying attention to tournaments (noting stuff like Commander Spam for T'au) will drag points values more in line with each other over the whole range of the codexes instead of the focus being so heavily internally focused.

It's not just points, the addition of allies has become a bit of an excuse to limit internal options as well.

 Quickjager wrote:
Exactly there isn't a difference, the only real difference is that Custodes are better in pretty much every way.

Take a single unit of Alarus (Allarus?) Terminators, then use the stratagem that lets them separate into smaller units. You got a very threatening force that has pretty cost efficient shooting at anything that isn't a GEQ or worse. EVEN THEN they are only marginally worse, because BS2+. Support with Jetbikes with Hurricane bolters if you are that worried, don't forget to take the Jetbike HQ unit for rerolls of 1 to hit! These guys also double as anti-air as well, because they have the fly keyword and with that 14 inch movement they will be hitting what they want on T2. Effectively the Custodes have the old Grey Knight Shunt-Punch now. The Dreadknight was replaced with a Jetbike however.

The biggest downside? They have more wounds concentrated on less models, so they bite the dust with D6(4+) damage weapons, ONLY D6(4+) however, because point for point, they are still more survivable against plasma than even GK paladins because for some reason GK pallies are still more expensive.

There is no niche left, psychic is done better by 1000sons, Boots on the ground CQC is done better by Custodes, Shooting is done better by literally ANY other Imperium faction bar Custodes.

But every unit is still paying premium prices to do something in a mediocre fashion.

Terminators with bikes are more like Dark Angels than Grey Knight. TS psychic should be better than others (except maybe Eldars).

 Draco wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Exactly there isn't a difference, the only real difference is that Custodes are better in pretty much every way.

Take a single unit of Alarus (Allarus?) Terminators, then use the stratagem that lets them separate into smaller units. You got a very threatening force that has pretty cost efficient shooting at anything that isn't a GEQ or worse. EVEN THEN they are only marginally worse, because BS2+. Support with Jetbikes with Hurricane bolters if you are that worried, don't forget to take the Jetbike HQ unit for rerolls of 1 to hit! These guys also double as anti-air as well, because they have the fly keyword and with that 14 inch movement they will be hitting what they want on T2. Effectively the Custodes have the old Grey Knight Shunt-Punch now. The Dreadknight was replaced with a Jetbike however.

The biggest downside? They have more wounds concentrated on less models, so they bite the dust with D6(4+) damage weapons, ONLY D6(4+) however, because point for point, they are still more survivable against plasma than even GK paladins because for some reason GK pallies are still more expensive.

There is no niche left, psychic is done better by 1000sons, Boots on the ground CQC is done better by Custodes, Shooting is done better by literally ANY other Imperium faction bar Custodes.

But every unit is still paying premium prices to do something in a mediocre fashion.

Terminators with bikes are more like Dark Angels than Grey Knight. TS psychic should be better than others (except maybe Eldars).

What are you even arguing?

 Quickjager wrote:

 Draco wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Exactly there isn't a difference, the only real difference is that Custodes are better in pretty much every way.

Take a single unit of Alarus (Allarus?) Terminators, then use the stratagem that lets them separate into smaller units. You got a very threatening force that has pretty cost efficient shooting at anything that isn't a GEQ or worse. EVEN THEN they are only marginally worse, because BS2+. Support with Jetbikes with Hurricane bolters if you are that worried, don't forget to take the Jetbike HQ unit for rerolls of 1 to hit! These guys also double as anti-air as well, because they have the fly keyword and with that 14 inch movement they will be hitting what they want on T2. Effectively the Custodes have the old Grey Knight Shunt-Punch now. The Dreadknight was replaced with a Jetbike however.

The biggest downside? They have more wounds concentrated on less models, so they bite the dust with D6(4+) damage weapons, ONLY D6(4+) however, because point for point, they are still more survivable against plasma than even GK paladins because for some reason GK pallies are still more expensive.

There is no niche left, psychic is done better by 1000sons, Boots on the ground CQC is done better by Custodes, Shooting is done better by literally ANY other Imperium faction bar Custodes.

But every unit is still paying premium prices to do something in a mediocre fashion.

Terminators with bikes are more like Dark Angels than Grey Knight. TS psychic should be better than others (except maybe Eldars).

What are you even arguing?

To me Custodians are closer to DA than GK. They are not like GK. They can be better than GK in same battlefield roles, but they are not psychic. Maybe you could use same tactics for GK and Custodians and maybe Custodians will win. IMO GK is still unique but power level of codex is not good in this edition.

GK has their problems but that is not Custodians or TS fault. We could compare GK to DA or Vanilla as Custodians (GK will lose to them too and there is similarities with GK). Point adjustments would be welcome to balance codex (balancing different GK units and balancing codex with others codexes).

Alright look, people need to get over this concept GK players are mad at Custodes or hilariously Thousand Sons. It is a joke to even imagine a GK player mad at someone else for playing a different faction. You do you, now who we actually are mad at is GW. But hey we're almost always mad at GW so nothing new there. Alright? At no point is anyone mad we got "forced" out of our niche. That niche was already forced out with Imperial Knights existing.

 Quickjager wrote:
Alright look, people need to get over this concept GK players are mad at Custodes or hilariously Thousand Sons. It is a joke to even imagine a GK player mad at someone else for playing a different faction. You do you, now who we actually are mad at is GW. But hey we're almost always mad at GW so nothing new there. Alright? At no point is anyone mad we got "forced" out of our niche. That niche was already forced out with Imperial Knights existing.

I don't understand?

Grey Knights are psychic, primarily terminator armoured infantry who "specialise" in daemon-hunting.

Imperial Knights are small Titans, wielding minor Titan sized weaponry.

If it's because Knights are a small model count army, what about the ACTUAL Titans? Or that fact that I could already take an all Tank army (FW Imperial Guard Armoured Battlegroup).

The smallest model count army, How hard is that? If you bring in FW, then... well no one takes FW seriously simply because they aren't in the codex.

No one plays against actual titans for fun in 1500 points.

Or are you proposing GK actually hate the other 2 factions like them? Or 3 if you include ordinary SM.

I mean you can bring an all tank army with Imperial Guard right now, hence why armoured battlegroup doesn't exist.

They even get objective secured.

 Quickjager wrote:
The smallest model count army, How hard is that? If you bring in FW, then... well no one takes FW seriously simply because they aren't in the codex.

No one plays against actual titans for fun in 1500 points.

Or are you proposing GK actually hate the other 2 factions like them? Or 3 if you include ordinary SM.

I mean, if you only look at them as individual models, then I don't know what to say.

Generally, what defines GK as being an army of about 3 models, compared to a demi-company of normal Space Marines?

I mean, sure, they largely wear Terminator Armour. Sure, they have more bespoke gear. They're incorruptible. But since when were they EVER as few on table as Knights?!

You'd be better to compare them to slightly more Elite Deathwing, rather than an army of TITANS.

I'm not saying that GK aren't an elite army, but to say they EVER competed in the same niche as Titans is a stretch. Comparing them to Deathwing is more logical.

I am glad to see others also realize GK players should not be upset that Custodes got a good book.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
The smallest model count army, How hard is that? If you bring in FW, then... well no one takes FW seriously simply because they aren't in the codex.

No one plays against actual titans for fun in 1500 points.

Or are you proposing GK actually hate the other 2 factions like them? Or 3 if you include ordinary SM.

I mean, if you only look at them as individual models, then I don't know what to say.

Generally, what defines GK as being an army of about 3 models, compared to a demi-company of normal Space Marines?

I mean, sure, they largely wear Terminator Armour. Sure, they have more bespoke gear. They're incorruptible. But since when were they EVER as few on table as Knights?!

You'd be better to compare them to slightly more Elite Deathwing, rather than an army of TITANS.

I'm not saying that GK aren't an elite army, but to say they EVER competed in the same niche as Titans is a stretch. Comparing them to Deathwing is more logical.

Yea I literally never said that. If you want an elite army plenty of factions have a way to field it. To call GK an elite army is like calling gray a shade of grey. It's literally all it can be, whereas with SM and DA they have the ability to shop around.

So when I was comparing them in a wide brushstroke I am comparing them by what options they have. A IK army literally is only Knights. A Dark Angel army has so much potential to be so many different things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why are you so focused on an afterthought? What are you after?

The salt has more to do with Custodes getting the codex GK players asked for, rather than GK getting that codex. I don’t know any GK that actively hates on Custodes, but I do know quite a few that hate on GW’s design team decisions. They literally ported the index GK into a full codex, only with less options. Then they add a unit nobody wanted as well as additional nerfs. It’s almost like GW has a reading problem.

No, we love what they did for the Custodes, after all, we gave them all of those suggestions last year for the GK codex!

SJ