Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

I never heard about any recriminations. Oh and I think you accidentally added an apostraphe in your title.

Fixed, the darn noodles took my attention!

Not really as far as I know. I don't see why they would though. That's like punishing the Imperial Fists for what they did at the Siege of Terra.

Not very much. If none.

The wolves where entirely loyal, and where the ones who joined thr drive to liberate tea during the siege.

There loyalty was never questioned much.

Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

Nope and this is a big issue for me in the background.

Gonna pre fix by saying that the Tsons deserved centure for breaking the edict, however as the plan was to turn the primarchs on each other from the start anyway, that's a moot point.

So on with my issue, Russ is a traitor, he may not have betrayed the emperor, but he betrayed his brother and through others actions, the imperium at large, we know that Horus was the one that set him on the sons, to kill, not capture, we know Russ was mistaken in thinking that Casper houser was an agent of Magnus, but in spite of all that, even after finding out he had been deceived and made a mistake, he still has a kill on sight order for the Tsons and Magnus, yhe whole space wolf thing of "I have seen my mistake and will be sure to correct it" is totally abandoned, rather than gather possible allies of the imperium and trying to fix his mistake, he compounds it, he betrayed his brother and deprived the imperium of much needed aid during the heresy.

This issue I hope is sorted out in the new book.

Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion. And all that they get is "Oh I guess Russ feels bad".

And they didn't participate on the battle of Terra is I remember right, got led all over the galaxy by Alpha Legion. So the Emps may have punished the wolves more harshly had he survived.

 jhe90 wrote:

Not very much. If none.

The wolves where entirely loyal, and where the ones who joined thr drive to liberate tea during the siege.

There loyalty was never questioned much.

Yeah, being loyal to the empire and doing bad things on accident when you thought you were doing the right thing doesn't ever cause you problems.

Oh wait.

 Formosa wrote:
Nope and this is a big issue for me in the background.

Gonna pre fix by saying that the Tsons deserved centure for breaking the edict, however as the plan was to turn the primarchs on each other from the start anyway, that's a moot point.

So on with my issue, Russ is a traitor, he may not have betrayed the emperor, but he betrayed his brother and through others actions, the imperium at large, we know that Horus was the one that set him on the sons, to kill, not capture, we know Russ was mistaken in thinking that Casper houser was an agent of Magnus, but in spite of all that, even after finding out he had been deceived and made a mistake, he still has a kill on sight order for the Tsons and Magnus, yhe whole space wolf thing of "I have seen my mistake and will be sure to correct it" is totally abandoned, rather than gather possible allies of the imperium and trying to fix his mistake, he compounds it, he betrayed his brother and deprived the imperium of much needed aid during the heresy.

This issue I hope is sorted out in the new book.

I agree, but it’s one of those little hypocritical things that technically matters on perspective and context. In Russ’ defense he can claim ignorance and he was, technically, following orders of a superior. Does that excuse him? Not really, but if his legion did in fact kill off one of the missing legions there’s precedent and perhaps that’s why he accepted the change without complaint. Magnus on the other hand, while good intentioned did disobey a superior in his case, while totally screwing up the Big E’s project. He also did it before the heresy kicked off, while Russ’ actions could have easily been muddled up enough through the chaos of the heresy, and the fact that the Thousand Sons ended up joining Horus (a self fulfilling prophecy but still true) that no one honestly cared about the details. Russ fought for the Emperor, Magnus didn’t, and after such a civil war why alienate the loyal forces you still have? Im not a big fan of the SW actions, but I can understand why things played out like they did.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

His plan to blunt there forces and buy Dorn etc time to prepare is not worst. But one legion vs a max of 7-9 is not the best odds at all.

Maybe a extra legion would have changed things and maybe forced a traitor change, and loyalist tactical change now having two defending legions of shock troops..

They may have been able to retake the second space port even.

I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

That's certainly the direction the Nu-Fluff is taking, unfortunately.

 Swiftblade wrote:
Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

They were neither punished nor tricked. They did the Emperor's bidding together with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Magnus was the one that was tricked. He was tricked by Tzeench into destroying the Emperor's webway.

pismakron wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

They were neither punished nor tricked. They did the Emperor's bidding together with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Magnus was the one that was tricked. He was tricked by Tzeench into destroying the Emperor's webway.

No, the Emperor's bidding was to BRING BACK Magnus to Terra. Horus intercepted the message and changed it into "break them down boi".

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

Space Wolf fluff in general is something of a confusing, contradictory, incomprehensible, and wholly unsatisfying mess. They can never decide what they want to be, half their fluff would immediately see other similar factions destroyed or subject to great censure, while the other half they're supposedly in charge of somehow unironically and unquestioningly delivering said censure for others doing the exact same thing.

Engrenages wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Making some lunch here and it occurred to me that I have no idea what happened to the Wolves after Prospero, did they get in hot water with Big E? Did they feel bad, or angry they were tricked? Or do the Wolves get off with a slap on the wrist and continue to be just the worst?

They were neither punished nor tricked. They did the Emperor's bidding together with the Custodes and Sisters of Silence.

Magnus was the one that was tricked. He was tricked by Tzeench into destroying the Emperor's webway.

No, the Emperor's bidding was to BRING BACK Magnus to Terra. Horus intercepted the message and changed it into "break them down boi".

to be fair, Valador must have agreed said order, so a Primarch and Emperors own senior body guard mounted the assault.
plus given the Heresey, a kill order probbly was not entirely out of phase for them to roill with it.

Wasn't Prospero sacked before the Heresy proper? Mind you, the Night Lords were AWOL, but they still responded to the call to purge the Legions waiting at Istvaan.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

The Nu-Fluff is leading us to believe that the Emperor sorta kinda planned the Heresy, as he wanted to get rid of the Primarchs and the Marines after they had 'done their job'. He just didn't think that it would get as out of hand as it all did, I guess?

 Alpharius wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Karhedron wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

After Prospero, they got ambushed by the Alpha Legion in the Alaxxes Nebula. After being rescued by the Dark Angels, the Wolves return to Terra for some time and are still there on patrol when the White Scars arrive. The wolves evidently depart again with Russ trying to forestall Horus' advance by taking the fight to him. This goes badly as they became besieged on Yarant III by a combined traitor force of Sons of Horus, Alpha Legion, World Eaters, and Thousand Sons led by First Captain Abaddon. Abaddon's forces were also accompanied by traitor Imperial Army. They eventually get rescued by Corax and the survivors of the Raven Guard (spot a pattern emerging here?).

Russ argued that the Wolves were hunters, not guard dogs and would be wasted manning the walls of the Imperial Palace. I cannot help but feel that was an excuse for Russ to try and come face to face with Horus, both to make him pay for his treachery and also for misleading the wolves during the burning of Prospero. How differently would the siege have gone with an extra Legion defending the palace?

Interesting. I have not been keeping up with the HH books and assume this is all detailed there.

There's lots to make you question the motives of all the characters. First off, an ambush from the Alpha Legion - why? Were they hoping to destroy the Space Wolves in a diminished state? Was this part of some cunning plan to achieve some other purpose?

Second, when they get to Terra, they go on guard duty. They just killed another chapter, and now they are being told to hold the fort. Why? Other chapters are fighting wars throughout the galaxy without achieving success. Why have the one who has scored a decisive victory against the heretics put into reserves?

Third, when they leave Terra to confront Horus, why is this allowed to happen? You don't just toss an army in the back of the spaceship and fly off into the stars, there are legitimate logistical questions to address. Malacador, the Emperor, others could have just shut the whole thing down. Was Russ making that argument to the Emperor, or was he muttering it under his breath as an entire legion snuck off?

The actions of the Space Wolves require a suspension of common sense to understand. The motives behind their actions are just as obscure as that of Alpha Legion, but they're constantly receiving directions for what to do. The way they are depicted makes the Emperor out to be a cruel tyrant using them as part of some cruel joke.

I really don't know what to make of all this.

The Nu-Fluff is leading us to believe that the Emperor sorta kinda planned the Heresy, as he wanted to get rid of the Primarchs and the Marines after they had 'done their job'. He just didn't think that it would get as out of hand as it all did, I guess?

That's just a bad way of killing them though. Every piece of new fluff about the Emperor seems to make him seem dumber and dumber. At this rate he'll cut off his own fingers picking up a sword.

The series as a whole has completely ruined the Heresy for me. I feel like even the few books that were good/great weren't worth the damage done to the overall story.

This idea of the Emperor intending for the Heresy to happen just sounds like bad damage control to me. GW realizes that they've written him to be a complete moron, so now they're just throwing out a "or is he?" with a sly wink hoping that it will somehow fix what they've done.

I don't think he intended the Heresy to happen. I think he was moreso planning on gradually culling the Legiones Astartes. I think the plan was that the blunt instruments were first, so the Night Lords, the World Eaters, and so on.

Nurglitch wrote:
I don't think he intended the Heresy to happen. I think he was moreso planning on gradually culling the Legiones Astartes. I think the plan was that the blunt instruments were first, so the Night Lords, the World Eaters, and so on.

Night lords and World eaters where already considered lost causes befoire even HH.

Russ tried to help Angron but he was too angry and lost to relise.

the Nightlords where already considered low grade legion, there use was useful but unlike say fists or iron warriors or ultras, they had no secondrey use.

Where was it said that the Emperor just wanted Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, but Horus tricked Russ into thinking the Emperor wanted Magnus dead?

It doesn't make any particular sense, does it? Why would the Emperor send Russ and sisters of silence and custodies just to bring Magnus back to Terra, instead of just telling Magnus to come back to Terra.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
It doesn't make any particular sense, does it? Why would the Emperor send Russ and sisters of silence and custodies just to bring Magnus back to Terra, instead of just telling Magnus to come back to Terra.

Magnus had just violated the Edict of Nikea and broken the Webway. Clearly the Emperor didn't trust him to do what he was told at that point.

Russ on the other hand was deemed loyal and trustworthy so he was told to bring his brother back. Unfortunately Horus messed with him and so a find and retrieve mission became hacky-stabby.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
It doesn't make any particular sense, does it? Why would the Emperor send Russ and sisters of silence and custodies just to bring Magnus back to Terra, instead of just telling Magnus to come back to Terra.

Magnus had just violated the Edict of Nikea and broken the Webway. Clearly the Emperor didn't trust him to do what he was told at that point.

Russ on the other hand was deemed loyal and trustworthy so he was told to bring his brother back. Unfortunately Horus messed with him and so a find and retrieve mission became hacky-stabby.

While taking Magnus back was the initial plan, I don't recall anything about them being told not to kill any Thousand Sons. It was very likely something along the lines of "Bring Magnus back, with any means necessary." The Talons of the Emperor were sent to further enforce that Russ wasn't just being a dick, that the full will of the Emperor was behind it. Plus the SoS would be useful vs the Sons for obvious reasons and well the Custodes are the Custodes. If Valdor, who held overall command, did nothing to countermand the fighting, clearly it was OK and not just something Horus cooked up to trick Russ into doing on the fly. Then again even if he didnt have Command, Valdor doing what he did still shows the Emperor's intent as Horus couldnt give him orders.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

 john27 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

No,Valdor was not involved in the War in the Webway. He was present at the Burning of Prospero.

 john27 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

No, he was on Prospero with Russ.

So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?

 Orblivion wrote:
The series as a whole has completely ruined the Heresy for me. I feel like even the few books that were good/great weren't worth the damage done to the overall story.

This idea of the Emperor intending for the Heresy to happen just sounds like bad damage control to me. GW realizes that they've written him to be a complete moron, so now they're just throwing out a "or is he?" with a sly wink hoping that it will somehow fix what they've done.

Ugh... yeah some things are really looking bad now. The Emperor has made some horrid mistakes that I might expect out of a junior officer or ROTC cadet that hasn't quite grasped basic leadership principles.

I really hope BL and GW don't go down this route with the Big E. 'But it was planned all along!' That would be so dumb.

Obviously Magnus screwed everything up. The Emperor literally doesn't know what to do after the webway is lost. (Which that is understandable. His master plan destroyed and his backup plan is rebelling)

 Orblivion wrote:

 john27 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

No, he was on Prospero with Russ.

He and a large custodes contingent deployed to the campaign, so many so there Terran Jail was under manned, hence Outcast Dead.

Custodes and sisters deployed as part of space wolves strike force. Valadors defenitely was there because he took on 30 thousand son elite sword masters and won alone.

They definitely deployed a sizeable force to Prospero, including wardens of under vaults and other sub groups.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Did they make it back to Terra after Prospero? What's the timeline there?

I am sure the Emperor would have had something to say about the situation, unless he actually knew that was going to happen and wanted it that way.

They didn\t make in time for Terra but that's because Horus sensed soon to arrive combined fleet of DA and Wolves thus leading to the all-or-nothing gambit where he hid arrival of reinforcements from Emperor and tempted him to charge.

Well that's the current fluff. Interesting to see if BL changes it. Siege will apparently not go quite as it's generally thought so it's up for air yet. But that's the current fluff.

 jhe90 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 john27 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

No, he was on Prospero with Russ.

He and a large custodes contingent deployed to the campaign, so many so there Terran Jail was under manned, hence Outcast Dead.

Custodes and sisters deployed as part of space wolves strike force. Valadors defenitely was there because he took on 30 thousand son elite sword masters and won alone.

They definitely deployed a sizeable force to Prospero, including wardens of under vaults and other sub groups.

I think your mean thirty, not thirty thousands

Engrenages wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

 Orblivion wrote:

 john27 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

He was with the other banana guards helping to stop a LITERAL tide of daemons from bursting into terra

No, he was on Prospero with Russ.

He and a large custodes contingent deployed to the campaign, so many so there Terran Jail was under manned, hence Outcast Dead.

Custodes and sisters deployed as part of space wolves strike force. Valadors defenitely was there because he took on 30 thousand son elite sword masters and won alone.

They definitely deployed a sizeable force to Prospero, including wardens of under vaults and other sub groups.

I think your mean thirty, not thirty thousands

Yeah.. 30, thousand son, sword masters lol.

He good, he not quite that good!

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?

No, it is actually in the novel “Burning of Prospero”. I don’t remember the exact specifics of the passage, but that’s the novel you’re looking for.

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?

No, it is actually in the novel “Burning of Prospero”. I don’t remember the exact specifics of the passage, but that’s the novel you’re looking for.

I think the novel you're thinking of is "Prospero Burns"

 timetowaste85 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, is this idea that Horus tricked Russ just a fan theory? Or is that actually stated somewhere?

No, it is actually in the novel “Burning of Prospero”. I don’t remember the exact specifics of the passage, but that’s the novel you’re looking for.

I've read Prospero Burns, and I don't remember that being in it.

So, a fan theory, then? In that case, it seems likely that the Space Wolves weren't punished because they did what they were supposed to do. Well, except that they failed to kill Magnus or wipe out the Thousand Sons.

I guess you might expect Russ to get punished for such abject failure, but at that point the war effort couldn't really spare him.

No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

Of course they got "punished".


They all got a smack on the nose with a rolled up newspaper and a "BAD DOG!" and made to sleep outside with the scratching and the fleas and the chewing.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
So, a fan theory, then? In that case, it seems likely that the Space Wolves weren't punished because they did what they were supposed to do. Well, except that they failed to kill Magnus or wipe out the Thousand Sons.

I guess you might expect Russ to get punished for such abject failure, but at that point the war effort couldn't really spare him.

It's not a fan theory it's been confirmed in... um, somewhere ? I know it's been mentioned a couple of times in a couple different stories, but I can't remember right now and 90% of my HH books are physical copies, so I don't have the time to scan through them currently. I'll vaguely look at my shelf and see if anything comes to me. I know the FW black book VII Inferno strongly hints at the events, with Leman Russ receiving a message from Horus at Beta-Garmon before declaring he was to slay Magnus and not bring him back, and even getting a sizable support group from the SoH,, who are suspiciously a bit too well equipped just for escort duty .

Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

thats proably because inferno was written after. frankly it's a silly idea, doesn't make much sense for the SoH to be diredtly involved as it means Magnus is going to know Horus was involved somehow

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...

Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

The Space Wolves got pissed when they found out what the Sons of Horus were doing to the natives on Prospero. Apparently the SoH were rounding people up and either kidnapping them en masse or slaughtering them.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...

Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

Read it again. I read it and towards the end it's very clear about the 1k Sons and Wolves being manipulated into fight each other.

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...

Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

Read it again. I read it and towards the end it's very clear about the 1k Sons and Wolves being manipulated into fight each other.

As far as I remember the only manipulation of them into fighting each other was done by the Influence of Daemons on Hawser, which was wrongly interpreted by the Wolves as Hawser being a plant of Magnus' to spy on the Legion. And that Russ was too foolish to try multiple ways of contacting Magnus into order to plead for him to surrender.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:
No Prospero Burns says it's intentional manipulation. You're the only one who thinks it's a fan theory.

It does not say that in Prospero Burns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Confirmed in False gods, the CSM/TS codices and the one most important lore scource of all: Inferno. Inferno has Russ using support elements from the Sons of Horus.

It's strangely absent in prospero burns but that book has a very highly unreliable narrator in Kasper Hawser. Funnily enough Prospero's actual buring is more fleshed out in TS then Prospero burns.

Ah, thank you. I don't have the Thousand Sons codex. What exactly does it say in there?

Is Inferno a Forge World book? I'm generally willing to ignore the stupid stuff Forge World comes up with as long as it doesn't end up finding its way into something from GW or Black Library. But what exactly does it say? Just because Horus sent some forces to help Russ doesn't in any way mean or even imply that he was the one giving the orders.

Yes it does. I'm not really sure how you can deny that...

Because I read the book, and it doesn't say anything about that in the book.

Read it again. I read it and towards the end it's very clear about the 1k Sons and Wolves being manipulated into fight each other.

As far as I remember the only manipulation of them into fighting each other was done by the Influence of Daemons on Hawser, which was wrongly interpreted by the Wolves as Hawser being a plant of Magnus' to spy on the Legion. And that Russ was too foolish to try multiple ways of contacting Magnus into order to plead for him to surrender.

Yes, that's how I remember it, too. In fact, it completely contradicts the idea that Russ was ordered by Horus to kill Magnus and wipe out the Thosuand Sons. Because Russ is hoping that once Magnus finds out he is coming ( through, what Russ thought was his spy), he would surrender peacefully.

So yeah, if it is only Prospero Burns where this idea supposedly comes from, then it is definitely just a fan theory. But it sounds like it was mentioned in a couple of recent codexes. So maybe it has become an actual thing now.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Yes, that's how I remember it, too. In fact, it completely contradicts the idea that Russ was ordered by Horus to kill Magnus and wipe out the Thosuand Sons. Because Russ is hoping that once Magnus finds out he is coming ( through, what Russ thought was his spy), he would surrender peacefully.

So yeah, if it is only Prospero Burns where this idea supposedly comes from, then it is definitely just a fan theory. But it sounds like it was mentioned in a couple of recent codexes. So maybe it has become an actual thing now.

It was written up that way before the Horus Heresy novel series was even started actually, in the old HH fluff. IIRC the novel series changed it to be more of a sneaky suggestion by Horus, rather than him actually changing the order like it used to be.

You have to commit a crime to be punished for one.

Unless it's Jim Crow era.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You have to commit a crime to be punished for one.

Unless it's Jim Crow era.

Or questioned by a inquisitor... Because you are guilty of somthing...

 jhe90 wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
You have to commit a crime to be punished for one.

Unless it's Jim Crow era.

Or questioned by a inquisitor... Because you are guilty of somthing...

If you didn't commit a crime you were guilty of time wasting.

Why would the Space Wolves be punished for doing their duty? It was their task to bring Magnus to Terra for judgement. The fault lies with Magnus for not surrendering and becoming buddies with Chaos instead.
Destroying traitors is a good thing, so the Space Wolves would have been commended rather than punished.

Magnus could have avoided all of the misery for Prospero and the Thousand Sons if he had simply informed them of what had happened and told them not to resist. He knew Russ and Valdor were coming to get him. He could have contacted them at any time to surrender and go with them peacefully. He never did and thus brought ruin on his people. Really, Magnus is a huge selfish douchebag, and the poor Thousand Sons and people of Prospero paid the price for his stubborn pride and hubris.

As to why Valdor didn't do anything to stop Russ? Valdor hated Magnus for destroying the Webway project and wanted to see him brought to justice. The fact that the Thousand Sons reacted with hostility to this completely justified censure must have sealed their fate in his eyes. I don't think he had much interest in stopping the destruction of Prospero and the Thousand Sons therefore.

 Orblivion wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Yes, that's how I remember it, too. In fact, it completely contradicts the idea that Russ was ordered by Horus to kill Magnus and wipe out the Thosuand Sons. Because Russ is hoping that once Magnus finds out he is coming ( through, what Russ thought was his spy), he would surrender peacefully.

So yeah, if it is only Prospero Burns where this idea supposedly comes from, then it is definitely just a fan theory. But it sounds like it was mentioned in a couple of recent codexes. So maybe it has become an actual thing now.

It was written up that way before the Horus Heresy novel series was even started actually, in the old HH fluff. IIRC the novel series changed it to be more of a sneaky suggestion by Horus, rather than him actually changing the order like it used to be.

Interesting. There is no mention of it in the 2nd edition Chaos codex, which states explicitly that Russ was under orders from the emperor to devastate the Thousand Sons. Do you have any idea where this idea of interference from Horus originates?

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

the Tutiloargies where NOT deamonic posession

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

the Tutiloargies where NOT deamonic posession

They were still using demons, and their Primarch had meddled with Tzeentch to make the Flesh-Change disappear. So they were tainted, though subtly.

BrianDavion wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Swiftblade wrote:
Yeah maybe it's cause I'm a Tsons fan, but it's just more fuel for the flames for me to not like the Wolves. They make this huge mistake and are duped into directly disobeying orders, and burn a loyal world to the ground and shatter a loyal legion.

Loyal legions weren't 100% possessed by daemons. The Thousand Sons were.

the Tutiloargies where NOT deamonic posession

That's objectively false. They are daemons. They inhabited the Thousand Sons.

It probably wasn't considered the best time to be alienating more Space Marine Legions tbf.

The tutelaries had as much to do with daemonic possession as daemons do with the power of Fenris and their erm wolf guides.
Though tutelaries are supposed to be protective daimons. You could also call the primarchs tutelaries made flesh. Which knowing the Emp wouldnt surprise me if he stuffed them in meat bags.

Seeing as theres a tutelary, which is supposedly the best bit of Magnus on Terra. Which Malcador brought brought back from the body of Arvida. That will probably end up being the grand master of the GK. I dont think id call them daemons.

Russ has always been easily lead. To busy saying yes, ill do it, to hide his own legions flaws.

No, because it was doing its duty for the Emperor.
However, being wolfed to maximum by Phil Kelly and later Wrath of Magnus more than make up for Prospero

Wow some bad info going around here.

First off tutelaries are daemons and were BOUND to the thousand sons, they did not possess them in any way. But as daemons it's entirely possible to possess a thousand son.

Second, Magnus's soul on terra isn't a tutulary, it is a literal part of his soul, other parts were bound to people or objects, basically a horcrux.

I always thought tutelaries were viewed half as psychic batteries to draw strength from and half as slaves, not something to give up both ones soul and body to.

 Formosa wrote:
Wow some bad info going around here.

First off tutelaries are daemons and were BOUND to the thousand sons, they did not possess them in any way. But as daemons it's entirely possible to possess a thousand son.

Aren't in new BL books tutelaries were something different than basic daemons? More in lines of bein' warp faximilies of TS marines.

And there was that fluffy idea that NO TS marine on the ground physically survived Prospero but were reforged by Magnus - and thus literally pieces of him if that was not always such way.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Destroying traitors is a good thing, so the Space Wolves would have been commended rather than punished.

Magnus could have avoided all of the misery for Prospero and the Thousand Sons if he had simply informed them of what had happened and told them not to resist. He knew Russ and Valdor were coming to get him. He could have contacted them at any time to surrender and go with them peacefully. He never did and thus brought ruin on his people. Really, Magnus is a huge selfish douchebag, and the poor Thousand Sons and people of Prospero paid the price for his stubborn pride and hubris.

If I recall correctly, in Inferno, Magnus does tell the Tsons to stand down and accept what is about to happen to them. A few of his captains took their companies and mounted a defense anyway, dragging the rest of the legion in as civilian casualties mounted. Magnus was off being emo in a corner somewhere for the majority of the battle.

pm713 wrote:
Not really as far as I know. I don't see why they would though.

Because he is a traitor who pretty much lost Heresy for loyalists?

Had he brought Magnus in chains, Empy would be not only be able to bring all his strength to bear instead of multitasking, also, Horus wouldn't have battalion of Chaos psykers created from captive population of Prospero, who Russ like last idiot handed to the delegate of the Sons of Horus present, who insisted on 'taking care of the prisoners' in return for help...

BrianDavion wrote:
I think a more pertinant question is.... what the feth was Constine Valdor doing? he was there and presumably knew the Emperor's mind on the matter. his not acting seems to be a pretty major feth up

That's the problem, according to FW book on Prospero Valdor was sending complains to Russ every five minutes that this was not what they were sent for, Russ then throwing them into nearest garbage bin before tiring of this and ordering immediate assault on space port to shut Valdor up (and ironically, first destroyed unit was loyalist regiment that was just resupplying there by chance).

Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

 Inquisitor Lord Bane wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Destroying traitors is a good thing, so the Space Wolves would have been commended rather than punished.

Magnus could have avoided all of the misery for Prospero and the Thousand Sons if he had simply informed them of what had happened and told them not to resist. He knew Russ and Valdor were coming to get him. He could have contacted them at any time to surrender and go with them peacefully. He never did and thus brought ruin on his people. Really, Magnus is a huge selfish douchebag, and the poor Thousand Sons and people of Prospero paid the price for his stubborn pride and hubris.

If I recall correctly, in Inferno, Magnus does tell the Tsons to stand down and accept what is about to happen to them. A few of his captains took their companies and mounted a defense anyway, dragging the rest of the legion in as civilian casualties mounted. Magnus was off being emo in a corner somewhere for the majority of the battle.

Yeah, this is how it happened. I actually think Ahriman was the most vocal about mounting a defense for Prospero when the Wolves rolled up to Prospero with a large elimination force.

The frustrating thing about it is that the battle of Prospero is a tragedy for both sides, the Thousand Sons are punished by Magnus's misguided attempts to help and the Wolves are duped by the Warmaster into forcing the Sons to embrace chaos. It's a sad story, and it's supposed to be sad for both sides with long reaching consequences for the actions of each side.

Except it takes several millenia for the Wolves to have consequences, cause the Wolves seem to get away with everything in the fluff. Leman Russ gets duped by Horus into fighting the Sons but doesnt even get yelled at by his fellow Primarchs for it? Gets to get away with being non codex compliant? Activley engages the inquisition in a war and doesn't have their home glassed from orbit? Heck they even get to have Wulfen show up and thats kosher. The only time the Wolves face consequences for their actions is in Wrath of Magnus, when the TS finally get their revenge and the Inquisition says "Yeah we have to blow up part of Fenris. Not all of it, but most of it."

The furstrating part, at least for me, about the aftermath of Prospero is how little it affects the wolves. In a setting where consequences tend to be pretty swift, and the HH book series where the primarchs are more than happy to shame each other for their mistakes, the Wolves just get away with it. Theres no story, no tragedy for the wolves at Prospero except to be the bad guys. Except they get to be the bad guys of the story but still get to be the good guys cause hey they are Space Wolves.

I know thats a bit soap box-ish, but I wanted to clear up the air of my frustartions. I know the TS messed up, Magnus's arrogance was his downfall, and he tried to do what was right but didn't listen to advice and suffered for it. Thats a good tragedy. But the Space Wolves get tricked into razing Prospero by manipulative forces and then just keep on truckin'. It's annoying.

How can you be non codex compliant when it wasn't a thing?

The whole Chapter was crippled in Battle of the Fang. Then again in the Fenris junk which is pretty badly written because it started doing dumb crap like Wulfen. GW are not good writers. Or really average writers.

When people bring up the Inquisition thing they always forget that GREY KNIGHTS were planning to start assassinating people.

pm713 wrote:
How can you be non codex compliant when it wasn't a thing?

The whole Chapter was crippled in Battle of the Fang. Then again in the Fenris junk which is pretty badly written because it started doing dumb crap like Wulfen. GW are not good writers. Or really average writers.

When people bring up the Inquisition thing they always forget that GREY KNIGHTS were planning to start assassinating people.

no the codex was a thing, we're talking post Heresy.

the fenris thing yeah we'll see what the space wolf codex says I suppose. regarding the inqusition, no the grey knights where NOT planning to assasinate people. The Inqsution was planning to engage in Genocide to cover up the Grey Knights existance, the existance of deamons AND the existance of a deamon Primarch. As was standard procedure. This was nothing new or exceptional. So yeah doesn't matter who you think si right, this was the Space Wolves fighting with the inqusition over a matter that was pretty normal busniess for the Inq

BrianDavion wrote:
The Inqsution was planning to engage in Genocide to cover up the Grey Knights existance, the existance of deamons AND the existance of a deamon Primarch. As was standard procedure. This was nothing new or exceptional. So yeah doesn't matter who you think si right, this was the Space Wolves fighting with the inqusition over a matter that was pretty normal busniess for the Inq

The real question is, why didn't the Inqusitor Lord just order those transports with Guardsmen on to go to location X and not to tell the Space Wolves where they were going.

Really that book was a flimsy retcon.

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

Isstavan V hasn't happened yet when Prosperio burned

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

Isstavan V hasn't happened yet when Prosperio burned

Doesnt matter, its one of the inconsistencies of the HH series (even prior to the novels), Horus tricked russ.

 Formosa wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Russ is in no way a traitor though. That's a ridiculous argument. The whole heresy would have been avoided if the first Luna Wolves had killed Horus when they met him. I guess they're traitors too.

Russ is not a traitor to the emperor, but his actions betrayed the imperium, and his follow up actions cement that, rather than admitting he made a mistake and trying to salvage as many of the thousand sons as he could, he sent his sons out to finish the job, even before Magnus went traitor.

The Tsons deserved centure, they deserved to be punished, but that should and would have come after the heresy had Russ rectified his mistake after finding out that Horus had tricked him.

Isstavan V hasn't happened yet when Prosperio burned

Doesnt matter, its one of the inconsistencies of the HH series (even prior to the novels), Horus tricked russ.

That's not an inconsistancy unless you think Horus upon deciding to go traitor IMMEDIATLY went over to the Istavaan system. the material suggests Horus spent a great deal of time manuvering pieces into position etc before he started the heresy

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:
How can you be non codex compliant when it wasn't a thing?

The whole Chapter was crippled in Battle of the Fang. Then again in the Fenris junk which is pretty badly written because it started doing dumb crap like Wulfen. GW are not good writers. Or really average writers.

When people bring up the Inquisition thing they always forget that GREY KNIGHTS were planning to start assassinating people.

no the codex was a thing, we're talking post Heresy.

the fenris thing yeah we'll see what the space wolf codex says I suppose. regarding the inqusition, no the grey knights where NOT planning to assasinate people. The Inqsution was planning to engage in Genocide to cover up the Grey Knights existance, the existance of deamons AND the existance of a deamon Primarch. As was standard procedure. This was nothing new or exceptional. So yeah doesn't matter who you think si right, this was the Space Wolves fighting with the inqusition over a matter that was pretty normal busniess for the Inq

Yes they were. The Fenrisian Inqusitor and her GK squad were considering assassinating the leader of the operation. Who was also totally unsuited.

The Inquisition was also told the civilian population knew nothing about it and that standard procedure isn't literal because logic. If you were killed for knowing of Chaos then Cadian guardsmen would be killed after their first day on the job. None of it was "normal business".

When Russ got his orders, Horus was still the Warmaster of the Great Crusade; the favoured son of the Emperor and first among the Primarchs. The Emperor was fighting a warp rift in his basement, created by Magnus. Getting a change of orders from the guy who now runs the Great Crusade isn't a weird thing at all. Unsettling, but the Wolves have killed Legions before. By the time they get back to the Emperor there's another 6 Legions turned traitor, there's still a deamon portal in the basement, and the Imperial forces cannot be trusted. Somewhere in there Mars go pear-shaped as the Mechanicum fight it out.

So, they weren't punished by the Imperium for Prospero because by the time anyone could get to them it was post-Heresy. The Emperor was dead, Malcador was dust, Valdor was present at the burning so he can't really point fingers, and Guilliman has popped up out of his Imperium Secundus to make demands and Dorn is looking at kicking off inter-Legion war 2.0 over it.

Whether they should have or shouldn't have is up to the individual, but no. No they weren't.

It's worth noting that the TS were doing an awful lot more with sorcery etc than anyone expected when Russ was sent by the Emperor to take Magnus.

While the order wasn't to raze the planet at the time, if the Emperor had known the level of sorcery (and while the TS's didn't think so the clear inference was that this was already slow chaotic corruption and the Emperor would have thought so) employed he probably would have ordered everything to be destroyed. Hence the SWs and Custodes would come home, report on this and the Emperor would have condoned their actions regardless. The Emperor was pretty ruthless like that.

Another angle when people mention the Emperor acting foolishly is that the Emperor has been historically used to having prescience to guide his actions. It's easy to be right when you can see the future. But come the heresy that has stopped working as a result of the actions of the Chaos Powers, and he's robbed of a clutch he's used for millennia. It doesn't surprise me he makes bad decisions as a result.

Kurnost wrote:
When Russ got his orders, Horus was still the Warmaster of the Great Crusade; the favoured son of the Emperor and first among the Primarchs. The Emperor was fighting a warp rift in his basement, created by Magnus. Getting a change of orders from the guy who now runs the Great Crusade isn't a weird thing at all. Unsettling, but the Wolves have killed Legions before. By the time they get back to the Emperor there's another 6 Legions turned traitor, there's still a deamon portal in the basement, and the Imperial forces cannot be trusted. Somewhere in there Mars go pear-shaped as the Mechanicum fight it out.

Adding to that, there's the basic army concept of "chain of command" (okay, I'm guessing how it's said in English, but alas). Having Horus as the Warmaster, unless it was a super secret mission, the Emperor wouldn't contact Russ directly, but Horus and expect him to relay his orders.

Where did it say that Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus?

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Where did it say that Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus?

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

its in a couple of different novels, plus Russ did decide to take it upon himself to try to censure the World Eaters, Angron even mocks him for being the self titled "executioner".

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

It's been implied that Russ and the Vlka Fenryka had their hands in the obliteration of at least one of the missing legions. And yes, the order may as well have come form the Emperor, to his Warmaster. Then the Warmaster relied the order to Russ (or Russ may as well have believed).

Pretty much how here a Brigade General won't get his orders straight from the Chief of General Staff or the PResident, but from his Division General. At least that's how I can justify it.

 Formosa wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Where did it say that Horus ordered Russ to kill Magnus?

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

its in a couple of different novels, plus Russ did decide to take it upon himself to try to censure the World Eaters, Angron even mocks him for being the self titled "executioner".

Like where? I've asked this before, and nobody could point to a source, except supposedly the most recent chaos marine codex, that says that the Emperor ordered Russ to capture Magnus, but Horus changed the order to kill him. I'd like to know where this is covered (if it is) in the Horus Heresy series.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dark wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

Even if that did happen, I still find it kind of odd that Russ would obey such an order, given how much the Horus Heresy novels have shown the rivalries between legions. I don't think the order to wipe out a legion could come from anyone but the Emperor.

It's been implied that Russ and the Vlka Fenryka had their hands in the obliteration of at least one of the missing legions. And yes, the order may as well have come form the Emperor, to his Warmaster. Then the Warmaster relied the order to Russ (or Russ may as well have believed).

Pretty much how here a Brigade General won't get his orders straight from the Chief of General Staff or the PResident, but from his Division General. At least that's how I can justify it.

Well, a Brigadier General might question an order to attack another brigade in his own army. And the Primarchs operate pretty independently, so I find it hard to believe they'd be totally incapable of questioning an order from one of their brothers, whom they disagreed with all the time about almost everything.

Just a few qoutes from Inferno

The will of Horus
"At Beta-Garmon, Russ was not only met by those warriors of his own legion who had heeded his call, namely the battle-scarred warriors of the Third ninth and Eleventh Great Companies, but also by a detachment of warriors in the Sea-green armour of the newly anointed Sons of Horus. At the behest of the Warmaster himself these warriors were pledged to aid the wolf King in his dire task - their leader Overseer Boros Kurn, bore personal communications from Horus to his brother Leman Russ. The exact Contents of these missives have never been made available to scholars of the later Imperium indeed it is highly likely that no one other than Leman Russ and Horus themselves will ever know what arguments were brought to bear. But what is known now by the dire events which were to transpire on Prospero is that after viewing the contents of the Message and hearing the words of his brother Leman Russ let it be known among his sons that he no longer intended simply to capture Magnus but instead to see him slain."

The Hour of Execution

"In orbit, despite the insinuations of Horus Lupercal, Leman Russ conceded that he would not unleash the full destructive capabilities of his battle fleet without at least allowing his brother a chance to explain his apparent madness, Broadcasting from the Legio Custodes, the Oriflamme, the vox-Imperiosa - The sanctioned voice of the Silent Sisterhood and the Emperor's council of terra - proclaimed the writ borne by the fleet and called upon the Thousand sons and upon Magnus to answer for the crimes of which they were accused, to render himself unto the fleet or face the wrath of the Emperor.

Yet there was no answer, The fleet waited as Valdor entreated for further time with Russ on behalf of the accused Primarch to await a reply, but as Russ' fury steadily grew and as the ships of the fleet sat idle in space, still there was no answer. After almost a standard hour without work, neither to ask for forgiveness or to threaten resistance, nor even to acknowledge the fleet's presence, Leman Russ called an end to the efforts of diplomacy. incensed that Magnus would offer such an insult to his own brother, Russ gave the word and unleashed the firepower of the assembled Censure Host's fleet against the helpless planet below.

Prospero burned."

Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

You can but that's as non canon as me maintaining that oldcrons are still a thing.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

And you would be right, there are different types of perspectives when it comes to writing.

For example Inferno is written in

The Unreliable Narrator. This type of narrator cannot be trusted to accurately convey the story. He or she is skewed.

While Prospero Burns is

Third Person Multiple. This point of view can follow multiple people, switching back and forth between their individual stories or perspectives.

With a lot of

The Protagonist. He or she is the main character in the story. The protagonist shares what happens to him first-hand, along with commentary.

Thrown in.

The FW HH books are written as "historical" pieces and are less reliable that the first person protagonist and third person multiple stories that we have in the novels.

in fact the inclusion of sons of horus could be constrewed as PURE imperial propaganda. "nope it was all those sons of Horus advisors"

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

You can but that's as non canon as me maintaining that oldcrons are still a thing.

So, if the old Necron background and the new Necron background contradict each other, does that mean you accept both as being true parts of the background? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

You can but that's as non canon as me maintaining that oldcrons are still a thing.

So, if the old Necron background and the new Necron background contradict each other, does that mean you accept both as being true parts of the background? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

This is a debate I have been having for a while, I maintain that certain narratives are more reliable than others both in universe and out, if I have 20 books telling a marines capabilities and one contradicting that, I go with the 20, if I have sources of fluff written from different perspectives then I go with the one with the clearest indication of what happened, so first person "in the head" over 3rd person historical look back, in spite of what other people say 40k is extremely consistent with its fluff compared to other universes, take a look at battletech or Star Wars if you want major inconsistencies, we don't even know what kind of Jedi even existed anymore for example.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

You can but that's as non canon as me maintaining that oldcrons are still a thing.

So, if the old Necron background and the new Necron background contradict each other, does that mean you accept both as being true parts of the background? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

No. For any fan lore I make the oldcron lore is what they have and newcron lore doesn't exist at all. There are no C'Tan shards or Trazyn or named characters. But that's not how the canon works. The canon is the newcron stuff.

 Formosa wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

You can but that's as non canon as me maintaining that oldcrons are still a thing.

So, if the old Necron background and the new Necron background contradict each other, does that mean you accept both as being true parts of the background? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

This is a debate I have been having for a while, I maintain that certain narratives are more reliable than others both in universe and out, if I have 20 books telling a marines capabilities and one contradicting that, I go with the 20, if I have sources of fluff written from different perspectives then I go with the one with the clearest indication of what happened, so first person "in the head" over 3rd person historical look back, in spite of what other people say 40k is extremely consistent with its fluff compared to other universes, take a look at battletech or Star Wars if you want major inconsistencies, we don't even know what kind of Jedi even existed anymore for example.

Battletech in fairness has been ironing out most of the inconsistancies etc. it helps that all their sourcebooks are IC so they can just dismiss it with "X was misinformed"

I don't think you know how canon works.

If two official sources conflict on something, as Formosa said, it makes sense to think about how the information was presented, and if some was from an "in universe" perspective and thus not reliable.

I also consider some sources more official than others. The background in the Games Workshop books I think is more official than stuff from Black Library novels, which is more official than Forge World stuff.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I don't think you know how canon works.

If two official sources conflict on something, as Formosa said, it makes sense to think about how the information was presented, and if some was from an "in universe" perspective and thus not reliable.

I also consider some sources more official than others. The background in the Games Workshop books I think is more official than stuff from Black Library novels, which is more official than Forge World stuff.

Pretty much agree bar a slight point, GW codex specifically mostly ignored as propaganda and not reliable as a source compared to the others, over arching source books fall into the same category, take dark imperium (novel) for example, this is a lot more reliable than codex space marines when it comes to what is going on in universe, gathering storm I just think of as propaganda too, it's so OTT and "just as planned" it hurts, most codexs are written in the grey area between the truth and a lie.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Well, that directly contradicts the events in the novel Prospero Burns. Given how terrible the Forge World writing is, I think I'll stick with what is in the Horus Heresy novels.

You can but that's as non canon as me maintaining that oldcrons are still a thing.

So, if the old Necron background and the new Necron background contradict each other, does that mean you accept both as being true parts of the background? That doesn't make much sense, does it?

This is a debate I have been having for a while, I maintain that certain narratives are more reliable than others both in universe and out, if I have 20 books telling a marines capabilities and one contradicting that, I go with the 20, if I have sources of fluff written from different perspectives then I go with the one with the clearest indication of what happened, so first person "in the head" over 3rd person historical look back, in spite of what other people say 40k is extremely consistent with its fluff compared to other universes, take a look at battletech or Star Wars if you want major inconsistencies, we don't even know what kind of Jedi even existed anymore for example.

Battletech in fairness has been ironing out most of the inconsistancies etc. it helps that all their sourcebooks are IC so they can just dismiss it with "X was misinformed"

It just clicked your name was Davion lol, filthy Surat

But yep, that just illustrates my point, battletech lore is very unreliable.

Speaking of which, it's literally the only other universe I can think of that competes for sheer depth with 40k.

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I don't think you know how canon works.

If two official sources conflict on something, as Formosa said, it makes sense to think about how the information was presented, and if some was from an "in universe" perspective and thus not reliable.

I also consider some sources more official than others. The background in the Games Workshop books I think is more official than stuff from Black Library novels, which is more official than Forge World stuff.

There's also the fact that some things are just flat out replaced. There isn't a conflict one is just wrong. There's not more 'official' and less official.

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I don't think you know how canon works.

If two official sources conflict on something, as Formosa said, it makes sense to think about how the information was presented, and if some was from an "in universe" perspective and thus not reliable.

I also consider some sources more official than others. The background in the Games Workshop books I think is more official than stuff from Black Library novels, which is more official than Forge World stuff.

There's also the fact that some things are just flat out replaced. There isn't a conflict one is just wrong. There's not more 'official' and less official.

Do the games count? Like DOW and that?

I don't think they do personally but curious to what others think

 Formosa wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
I don't think you know how canon works.

If two official sources conflict on something, as Formosa said, it makes sense to think about how the information was presented, and if some was from an "in universe" perspective and thus not reliable.

I also consider some sources more official than others. The background in the Games Workshop books I think is more official than stuff from Black Library novels, which is more official than Forge World stuff.

There's also the fact that some things are just flat out replaced. There isn't a conflict one is just wrong. There's not more 'official' and less official.

Do the games count? Like DOW and that?

I don't think they do personally but curious to what others think

The storyline of the game counts the random bits of gameplay don't. For example it's canon the Blood Ravens lost in Kaurava it isn't canon they fed Marines into a meat grinder squad by squad against the Sisters like I did.

Is https://regimental-standard.com/ "canon"?