Consider the following scenario:

I have 3 spore mines, A B and C, located 3.1" away from Primaris Intercessor Adam and 6000" away from Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew, these are the only models on the board.

I charge the Primaris Intercessor with all 3 mines, surviving overwatch, and rolling a 3+ for each mine. The mines then go within 1" of Primaris Intercessor Adam.

The "Floating Death" rule now kicks in. Quoted for the purposes of rules discussion:

Page 99 Codex: Tyranids wrote:Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.

The key issue here is they they trigger "if it is within 3" of any unit" vs causing the wound "on the nearest enemy unit". Those are not necessarily the same thing. Since all three trigger simultaneously, the sequencing rules tell us to resolve them one at a time.

I resolve Spore Mine A, and it causes a Mortal Wound to Adam. I resolve Spore Mine B, and it causes a Mortal Wound to Adam, slaying him.

Spore Mine C now has a rule saying it has exploded, since it was within 3" of a model at the end of the charge phase. It now resolves, rolling a 6, then a 3 on the D3, causing a Mortal Wound "on the nearest enemy unit". Since Adam is dead, the Nearest Enemy Unit is now Bartholomew, even though he's 600" away. Thus the Spore Mine should now cause 3 Mortal Wounds to Bartholomew, despite him being 6000" away.

Am I right in thinking this or have I missed something? I am pretty sure the rule is supposed to cause the wound to the unit that "triggered it" but I feel that the rule doesn't do this.

Isen't "at the start of the charge phase" before you even declare charges?

FunJohn wrote:
Isen't "at the start of the charge phase" before you even declare charges?

They detonate at the end.

Seems like you measure for a spore mine, if it is within 3" you follow its sequence and it explodes. Then you measure the next one, and see if that explodes etc.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Seems like you measure for a spore mine, if it is within 3" you follow its sequence and it explodes. Then you measure the next one, and see if that explodes etc.

Except that isn't what the rule says whatsoever, as I detailed in my post.

This isn’t new news, has been posited/discussed before in YMDC, and (quelle surprise) revolves around an unreasonable, obviously unintended reading of a rule... I’m not exactly shocked.

[Shudder] BCB is... Correct.

This has come up often before. It's not often relevant, but it has yet to be FAQ'd to something sensible like 'The closest unit within 3 inches.'

Yes, they all explode at the end of the charge phase if they are within 3".

You then roll for them, one at a time to see what they do.

If you kill everything nearbye with the first 2-4 spore mines, the remaining mines that blew up effectively act like smites, hitting the next closest model.


This is why a squad of Meiotic spores is a bit overpowered atm. 6 of them getting a charge off is pretty damn deadly. granted they are 18 points apiece for suicide models.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Seems like you measure for a spore mine, if it is within 3" you follow its sequence and it explodes. Then you measure the next one, and see if that explodes etc.

Except that isn't what the rule says whatsoever, as I detailed in my post.

It is though, your post has flaws. Namely once you check if a single spore mine is in range, you have to resolve its effects due to sequencing before you can measure to see if any others are close enough.

The biggest snaggu with this interpretation though, is that it ignores the end of the rule.

It says you roll to see what the damage is and inflict it upon "that" unit.


Its fair to say that "that" unit is the one the spore mine was within 3" of, which would mean that even though mortal wounds do roll over to models, they wouldn't roll over to other units.

Except that unit is the nearest mentioned phrase before.

Q is do you mearure distances whether triggered simultaneously while resolving effects non-simultaneosly. That's only scenario where this works. If range is checked after previous done doesn't work, if all explode simultaneously doesn't work

AdmiralHalsey wrote:
[Shudder] BCB is... Correct.

This has come up often before. It's not often relevant, but it has yet to be FAQ'd to something sensible like 'The closest unit within 3 inches.'

As it’s been covered before I’m not sure why it needed an attention-seeking post, but hey, quiet month for rules gaps I guess...

It's obviously silly and unintended, but only because Bartholomew is ludicrously far away in the example (you should totally post photos of your awesome 500 foot gaming table, BCB ). If the OP had stated Bartholomew was only 4" away from the spore mine, I'm pretty sure quite a few people would consider it a perfectly reasonable interpretation. You might easily expect a mine's blast radius to be larger than its detection/trigger radius.

All they had to do was make it say "the nearest unit within 3" " and none of this would be a problem.

In your scenario Adam is the unit they are closest to and within the 3 inch bubble. The trigger /ability that allows you to explode and do damage is the 3 inch caveat. It cannot nor would hurt even something 4 inches away. It’s within three. If it’s gone , ie Adam, then the rest of the mortal wounds are lost.

Honestly I doubt it gets a Faq, but I’m betting GW writers are laughing .

Lungpickle wrote:
In your scenario Adam is the unit they are closest to and within the 3 inch bubble. The trigger /ability that allows you to explode and do damage is the 3 inch caveat. It cannot nor would hurt even something 4 inches away. It’s within three. If it’s gone , ie Adam, then the rest of the mortal wounds are lost.

Honestly I doubt it gets a Faq, but I’m betting GW writers are laughing .

Except, like I pointed out, the "unit they are closest to" is not the same as the unit that triggered the mine. The "unit they are closest to" is only checked after it's detonated.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Lungpickle wrote:
In your scenario Adam is the unit they are closest to and within the 3 inch bubble. The trigger /ability that allows you to explode and do damage is the 3 inch caveat. It cannot nor would hurt even something 4 inches away. It’s within three. If it’s gone , ie Adam, then the rest of the mortal wounds are lost.

Honestly I doubt it gets a Faq, but I’m betting GW writers are laughing .

Except, like I pointed out, the "unit they are closest to" is not the same as the unit that triggered the mine. The "unit they are closest to" is only checked after it's detonated.

Except you check if mine 1 is in range then follow the rules for exploding. Then you check mine 2, etc.

You don't check Mine's 1 through 10 for range then follow the section about exploding.

Alternatively, if you consider a dead unit in range for the 3" detonation, then you must also consider that unit as a closer unit than the one 600" away.

JakeSiren wrote:

Except you check if mine 1 is in range then follow the rules for exploding. Then you check mine 2, etc.

You don't check Mine's 1 through 10 for range then follow the section about exploding.

Alternatively, if you consider a dead unit in range for the 3" detonation, then you must also consider that unit as a closer unit than the one 600" away.

Except you don't check for each mine individually. They all check simultaneously at the end of the charge phase. You can't check one after another because then you'd be breaking the rule about checking at the end of the phase. The sequencing rule then kicks in.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Except you check if mine 1 is in range then follow the rules for exploding. Then you check mine 2, etc.

You don't check Mine's 1 through 10 for range then follow the section about exploding.

Alternatively, if you consider a dead unit in range for the 3" detonation, then you must also consider that unit as a closer unit than the one 600" away.

Except you don't check for each mine individually. They all check simultaneously at the end of the charge phase. You can't check one after another because then you'd be breaking the rule about checking at the end of the phase. The sequencing rule then kicks in.

Technically you do. You chose the order of resolution for the multiple instances of "Floating Death": which includes checking range when you go to resolve that instance.

JakeSiren wrote:
Technically you do. You chose the order of resolution for the multiple instances of "Floating Death": which includes checking range when you go to resolve that instance.

It doesn't have to be within 3" when it resolves, only at the end of the phase. The end of the phase is simultaneous for all 3 mines. That's the whole reason why this works the way it does.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
Technically you do. You chose the order of resolution for the multiple instances of "Floating Death": which includes checking range when you go to resolve that instance.

It doesn't have to be within 3" when it resolves, only at the end of the phase. The end of the phase is simultaneous for all 3 mines. That's the whole reason why this works the way it does.

Um, except if you do so you are only partially resolving each instance of the rule. I've quoted the rule below and bolded the part you are trying to partially resolve before resolving the rest.

Page 99 Codex: Tyranids wrote:Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.

Read the sequencing rules. Each spore mine is attempting to resolve simultaneously, but the sequencing rules tell you to resolve them one at a time. The mine has already "gone off" despite it being resolved after the other 2, so it doesn't matter there aren't any models left when it resolves because there WERE models at the end of the charge phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All they had to do was make it say "the nearest unit within 3" " and none of this would be a problem.

It would bring a different problem, as it would make it possible for Spore Mines to find themselves out of range as they detonate. The initial condition may be simultaneous, but resolving the damage is not.

Tyran wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All they had to do was make it say "the nearest unit within 3" " and none of this would be a problem.

It would bring a different problem, as it would make it possible for Spore Mines to find themselves out of range as they detonate. The initial condition may be simultaneous, but resolving the damage is not.

That's the entire point of my proposed change. It's meant to make them detonate, but not cause any damage, if they find themselves too far away from a unit at the time they resolve the damage. Next time don't charge the poor guardsmen with 67 Spore Mines eh?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
All they had to do was make it say "the nearest unit within 3" " and none of this would be a problem.

It would bring a different problem, as it would make it possible for Spore Mines to find themselves out of range as they detonate. The initial condition may be simultaneous, but resolving the damage is not.

That's the entire point of my proposed change. It's meant to make them detonate, but not cause any damage, if they find themselves too far away from a unit at the time they resolve the damage.

I especify, it would mean they may find themselves out of range of the unit that triggered them in the first place.

Spore Mines are hardly some top performing unit to deserve such nerf, because it would be a nerf.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Read the sequencing rules. Each spore mine is attempting to resolve simultaneously, but the sequencing rules tell you to resolve them one at a time. The mine has already "gone off" despite it being resolved after the other 2, so it doesn't matter there aren't any models left when it resolves because there WERE models at the end of the charge phase.

I'm not sure I got the same thing from the sequencing rules that you did. Simultaneous events can be resolved in any order that the player whose turn it is chooses, but that doesn't mean they can be half resolved and interrupted and resumed arbitrarily. Your interpretation requires splitting up Floating Death rules, when sequencing rules tell you to resolve rules one at a time.


- Floating Death Instance 1 - 1st half of rules to check
- Floating Death Instance 2 - 1st half of rules to check
- Floating Death Instance 3 - 1st half of rules to check
- Maybe some other stuff happens "at end of charge phase"
- Floating Death Instance 1 - 2nd half of rules to explode
- Floating Death Instance 2 - 2nd half of rules to explode
- Floating Death Instance 3 - 2nd half of rules to explode

VS

- Floating Death Instance 1, check and explode
- Floating Death Instance 2, check and explode
- Floating Death Instance 3, check and explode

Just because both rules are called Floating Death doesn't mean that they get any special ability to interleave their resolution. They still go 1 at a time.

And if you're trying to say that the rule specifies the 'check' occurs at the end of charge phase but that the explosion occurs at some indeterminate time in the future ... when exactly does the explosion occur if not immediately during Floating Death rule resolution? No really. If you try to say the explosion resolution is "not at the end of charge phase, nor during the Floating Death rule, but some later time eventually", well the end of turn 6 is also 'eventually' and I'm fine with zero spore mines ever getting to explode.

It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Read the sequencing rules. Each spore mine is attempting to resolve simultaneously, but the sequencing rules tell you to resolve them one at a time. The mine has already "gone off" despite it being resolved after the other 2, so it doesn't matter there aren't any models left when it resolves because there WERE models at the end of the charge phase.

Then comes question is damage resolved simultaneously like say when unit shoots at which point your idea doesn't work

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Read the sequencing rules. Each spore mine is attempting to resolve simultaneously, but the sequencing rules tell you to resolve them one at a time. The mine has already "gone off" despite it being resolved after the other 2, so it doesn't matter there aren't any models left when it resolves because there WERE models at the end of the charge phase.

Then comes question is damage resolved simultaneously like say when unit shoots at which point your idea doesn't work

That's not how you resolve damage when a unit shoots no, you allocate wounds one at a time.

The base rule is to do each weapon one by one all the way from hit roll to damage even. There are of course fast rolling rules that allow you to do everything up to wound allocation simultaneously, but ONLY if doing so has no effect on the game compared to rolling one by one.

Even if you could apply fast rolling to this situation (which you can't as it's not a shooting attack and the models are separate units), this would be a situation where fast rolling changed the effect and so you wouldn't be able to use it and would have to resolve the entire ability one at a time.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.

I have to say though: I'd rather have an occasional mine explode 4 or 5 inches into the next unit instead of frequently having them go off but do nothing. Because if you limit it to 3 inches, the defender will just pull from the front and after 1 or two explosions there's no longer a unit within 3.

nekooni wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.

I have to say though: I'd rather have an occasional mine explode 4 or 5 inches into the next unit instead of frequently having them go off but do nothing. Because if you limit it to 3 inches, the defender will just pull from the front and after 1 or two explosions there's no longer a unit within 3.

Either is better than claiming they have infinite range “because RAW”.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.

It's pretty "obvious" my Conscripts have 20 wounds each. Prove me wrong.

You cannot check the range and then not also resolve the spore mine explosion.

Each "Floating Death" rule should be resolved in its sequence.

I would say this is similar to firing overwatch, and then having the targeted unit be out of range for some weapons in a squad after the first squad as shot. You're declaring the unit will fire overwatch, but some models may not be eligible to shoot because the range has changed after the first overwatch unit has shot.

Yes the spore mine was initially within 3", but when you went to evaluate its Floating Death after resolving the first, it was no longer in range, and therefore cannot legally be activated.

 Marmatag wrote:
You cannot check the range and then not also resolve the spore mine explosion.

Each "Floating Death" rule should be resolved in its sequence.

I would say this is similar to firing overwatch, and then having the targeted unit be out of range for some weapons in a squad after the first squad as shot. You're declaring the unit will fire overwatch, but some models may not be eligible to shoot because the range has changed after the first overwatch unit has shot.

Yes the spore mine was initially within 3", but when you went to evaluate its Floating Death after resolving the first, it was no longer in range, and therefore cannot legally be activated.

Except you don't check range when it resolves, you check range at the end of the charge phase.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You cannot check the range and then not also resolve the spore mine explosion.

Each "Floating Death" rule should be resolved in its sequence.

I would say this is similar to firing overwatch, and then having the targeted unit be out of range for some weapons in a squad after the first squad as shot. You're declaring the unit will fire overwatch, but some models may not be eligible to shoot because the range has changed after the first overwatch unit has shot.

Yes the spore mine was initially within 3", but when you went to evaluate its Floating Death after resolving the first, it was no longer in range, and therefore cannot legally be activated.

Except you don't check range when it resolves, you check range at the end of the charge phase.

Which is when it resolves

Marm, BCB is actually correct here.

At the end of the charge phase (when all charge moves are finished) any spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit pops, simultaneously (not one at a time).


You then have to resolve their damage one at a time since there is no other way to do it.


The only question here is whether they can effect units farther away than 3".


As I said, I believe the "them" is reffering to the unit that cause the spore mines to explode, but others are saying that its mearly the closest unit to the mines.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Consider the following scenario:

I have 3 spore mines, A B and C, located 3.1" away from Primaris Intercessor Adam and 6000" away from Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew, these are the only models on the board.

I charge the Primaris Intercessor with all 3 mines, surviving overwatch, and rolling a 3+ for each mine. The mines then go within 1" of Primaris Intercessor Adam.

The "Floating Death" rule now kicks in. Quoted for the purposes of rules discussion:

Page 99 Codex: Tyranids wrote:Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.

The key issue here is they they trigger "if it is within 3" of any unit" vs causing the wound "on the nearest enemy unit". Those are not necessarily the same thing. Since all three trigger simultaneously, the sequencing rules tell us to resolve them one at a time.

I resolve Spore Mine A, and it causes a Mortal Wound to Adam. I resolve Spore Mine B, and it causes a Mortal Wound to Adam, slaying him.

Spore Mine C now has a rule saying it has exploded, since it was within 3" of a model at the end of the charge phase. It now resolves, rolling a 6, then a 3 on the D3, causing a Mortal Wound "on the nearest enemy unit". Since Adam is dead, the Nearest Enemy Unit is now Bartholomew, even though he's 600" away. Thus the Spore Mine should now cause 3 Mortal Wounds to Bartholomew, despite him being 6000" away.

Am I right in thinking this or have I missed something? I am pretty sure the rule is supposed to cause the wound to the unit that "triggered it" but I feel that the rule doesn't do this.

Why should this version of the Tau Codex be any different than previous ones where the Spore mines have infinite range.

At least you have Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew there to catch the wounds. If he wasn't there then the closest enemy unit on closest 40k gaming table would find itself suprised to be catching the wounds from the spore mines. Of course, if the closest 40k gaming table is less than 6000" away Bart gets to watch the Spore Mines fireworks catch someone in a different game anyway.

Now the real question is: what is an enemy unit?

If it's just "any unit that's not friendly" then by RAW you have to start chaining explosions onto the game table next to you at a tournament.

"Sorry, buddy, but I had 12 Spore Mines go off and the first 3 tabled my opponent. Looks like we've got 9 spore mines to resolve, and your unit is closest..."

Stux wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Read the sequencing rules. Each spore mine is attempting to resolve simultaneously, but the sequencing rules tell you to resolve them one at a time. The mine has already "gone off" despite it being resolved after the other 2, so it doesn't matter there aren't any models left when it resolves because there WERE models at the end of the charge phase.

Then comes question is damage resolved simultaneously like say when unit shoots at which point your idea doesn't work

That's not how you resolve damage when a unit shoots no, you allocate wounds one at a time.

The base rule is to do each weapon one by one all the way from hit roll to damage even. There are of course fast rolling rules that allow you to do everything up to wound allocation simultaneously, but ONLY if doing so has no effect on the game compared to rolling one by one.

Even if you could apply fast rolling to this situation (which you can't as it's not a shooting attack and the models are separate units), this would be a situation where fast rolling changed the effect and so you wouldn't be able to use it and would have to resolve the entire ability one at a time.

But what is in range is considered before damage is resolved. Thus you can't cause first casualties into closest and remove rest from range. Same logic could be used here. What is closest unit is measured when trigger is checked. Casualty removal would then not alter that.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Marm, BCB is actually correct here.

At the end of the charge phase (when all charge moves are finished) any spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit pops, simultaneously (not one at a time).


You then have to resolve their damage one at a time since there is no other way to do it.


The only question here is whether they can effect units farther away than 3".


As I said, I believe the "them" is reffering to the unit that cause the spore mines to explode, but others are saying that its mearly the closest unit to the mines.

No it's not correct - You can't active these simultaneously. There is nothing in the rules that says you can.

 Marmatag wrote:
No it's not correct - You can't active these simultaneously. There is nothing in the rules that says you can.

Page 178, Sequencing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
No it's not correct - You can't active these simultaneously. There is nothing in the rules that says you can.

Page 178, Sequencing.

Right. Meaning they resolve in a sequence, as in, not simultaneously. After the first couple spore mines explode the conditions are no longer there to activate the third spore mine. Activating the spore mine for this ability requires it be within 3". You can't measure out of sequence, which is what you're doing when you say 1, 2, and 3 are all within 3". You're skipping ahead out of sequence. If 1 is in range, you can't check 2 and 3 yet, you need to resolve all floating death at once for #1.

So what your saying marm, is that its not the end of the assault phase for all 3 spore mines at the same time just because they each have a rule that states something happens at the end of the assault phase.................

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s yet another misapplication of Sequencing to generate a stupid effect. It’s pretty obvious the Spores are intended to only hit a unit within 3” and if no enemy are left wishing 3” after resolving a few splosions any remaining exploding Spores just explode and do nowt... but this is the internet where common sense is dead, so it doesn’t stop someone trying to manipulate RAW to claim a weapon has infinite range. Not sure why it’s suddenly been brought up again as new info, given people have already tilted at this windmill in other threads.

It's pretty "obvious" my Conscripts have 20 wounds each. Prove me wrong.

Go look at the Conscripts Datasheet. Next fallacy? Amazed you’re back repeating that one. It’s old, tired, and has always been a fallacy.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
So what your saying marm, is that its not the end of the assault phase for all 3 spore mines at the same time just because they each have a rule that states something happens at the end of the assault phase.................

(charge phase, right?)

End of phase is nebulous. It's not a "point in time," it's when the standard actions of that phase have concluded, but before the next phase begins. If you would like to activate floating death for your 3 spore mines, you have to do them in a sequence. This is the sequencing rule. It is entirely possible to change state at the end of the charge phase. For instance, if a Custodes player pays 2cp to charge into spore mines at the end of the phase, suddenly the ability could work, whereas it couldn't before. So there are two distinct points in time at the end of phase: Where floating death is legal, and where it is not.

You can't say "i am beginning floating death sequencing for 3 spore mines. I will do the first half of the ability for each of them, then, go back and start assigning wounds in a sequence." You can't pick and choose which portion of the ability you sequence and which you don't.

This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

If you want to read it that way, yes the range is infinite. If you want your opponent to have any form of enjoyable experience, then spore mine explosions do not out-range artillery pieces, main battle tanks, or rail weaponry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
If you want to read it that way, yes the range is infinite. If you want your opponent to have any form of enjoyable experience, then spore mine explosions do not out-range artillery pieces, main battle tanks, or rail weaponry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

It's unrealistic to assume that will ever happen.... ever.

When do you only have 2 units on the table, in opposite corners of the table, one gets surrounded by spore mines and dies before they all finish blowing up, so the other unit takes the hits?

It will NEVER happen.

If the spore mines kill all the units within 3" they will most likely be hitting a unit thats 4-6" away. Great. Super broken or something?

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

 Lance845 wrote:

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
If you want to read it that way, yes the range is infinite. If you want your opponent to have any form of enjoyable experience, then spore mine explosions do not out-range artillery pieces, main battle tanks, or rail weaponry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

It's unrealistic to assume that will ever happen.... ever.

When do you only have 2 units on the table, in opposite corners of the table, one gets surrounded by spore mines and dies before they all finish blowing up, so the other unit takes the hits?

It will NEVER happen.

If the spore mines kill all the units within 3" they will most likely be hitting a unit thats 4-6" away. Great. Super broken or something?

I had a game where a spore mine managed to hit a unit 10" away, so it's not as uncommon as you think, especially if I have massed biovores and the first two spore mines manage to rip off 6 models!

Marmatag is correct.

 Crimson wrote:
Marmatag is correct.

I have to chime in here. I agree.

If the rule stated that they "immediately" exploded then yes OP would be right, much like how you can Auspex scan a unit coming out a drop pod. The fact they"immediately" disembark means the motion is all at once, not i. Drop pod ii. Auspex iii. Units disembark. It's i. Drop pod and units disembark ii. Auspex.

Same here the spores are a sequence at the end of the charge phase they don't all explode same time. It's one two three job. But that's where your skills as a player come in and try and choose the spores that get the most from.

Another comparison is fight phase. Deathwing Knights and Belial Charge Sanguinary Guard. I choose my knights to attack first. they wipe enough Guard say 5 models, and my opponent removes the ones next to belial and puts Belial more than 1" away from combat and thus Belial has no eligible targets. Yes his charge was successful he is there but the sequence of events now means he can't attack.

This is the way I view this anyway.

 SeanDavid1991 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Marmatag is correct.

I have to chime in here. I agree.

If the rule stated that they "immediately" exploded then yes OP would be right, much like how you can Auspex scan a unit coming out a drop pod. The fact they"immediately" disembark means the motion is all at once, not i. Drop pod ii. Auspex iii. Units disembark. It's i. Drop pod and units disembark ii. Auspex.

Same here the spores are a sequence at the end of the charge phase they don't all explode same time. It's one two three job. But that's where your skills as a player come in and try and choose the spores that get the most from.

Another comparison is fight phase. Deathwing Knights and Belial Charge Sanguinary Guard. I choose my knights to attack first. they wipe enough Guard say 5 models, and my opponent removes the ones next to belial and puts Belial more than 1" away from combat and thus Belial has no eligible targets. Yes his charge was successful he is there but the sequence of events now means he can't attack.

This is the way I view this anyway.

I agree with everything except your example with Belial is not quite right. Belial still gets to activate in the fight phase because he charged (activating will allow him to pile-in 3" before trying to fight). If he did not charge, then you would be correct. Or if the knight caused enough casualties where even a 3" pile-in would not put him within 3" to fight, but that's highly unlikely.

JakeSiren wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.

BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom.

Except we're not told that if "they" are within 3" of an enemy model, they go boom. Each model has an ability called Floating Death, which states: "A Spore Mine explodes if *it* is within 3" of any enemy units [...]" There's no mention of this being a unit ability, in other words - it applies to each individual model.

Each ability for each model is resolved separately. You don't measure the range for every ability simultaneously across your entire army and then resolve them all regardless; you choose an ability to resolve, and then you resolve it, and then you move on to the next model/unit.

Sequencing allows the current player to choose which abilities activate first if there's a conflict, but every unit/model ability is still resolved completely prior to beginning a different model/unit's ability.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.

BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.

You have it backwards - you can't even begin to invoke sequencing unless there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time. In order to know if there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time (end of the phase), you have to check distance to the enemy unit to know whether the spore mine goes boom. Unless you know that you have more than one thing happening, you don't know that sequencing is needed. That means distance checking is not sequenced, but has to occur before sequencing in order to know if it's going to be involved in the sequencing in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Archebius wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom.

Except we're not told that if "they" are within 3" of an enemy model, they go boom. Each model has an ability called Floating Death, which states: "A Spore Mine explodes if *it* is within 3" of any enemy units [...]There's no mention of this being a unit ability, in other words - it applies to each individual model.

You left off an important part of the quote... "at the end of any Charge phase" Everything in range at the end of the charge phase - a point in time - is involved. This means you have to measure it to determine if it is involved or not. See my comments to Unit1126PLL. You have to measure distance before knowing who is going to be involved in the sequencing.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.

BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.

You have it backwards - you can't even begin to invoke sequencing unless there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time. In order to know if there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time (end of the phase), you have to check distance to the enemy unit to know whether the spore mine goes boom. Unless you know that you have more than one thing happening, you don't know that sequencing is needed. That means distance checking is not sequenced, but has to occur before sequencing in order to know if it's going to be involved in the sequencing in the first place.

But you can't check distance (other than to pre-measure, which is "pre" because it's not the action) except as part of resolving the Floating Death rule at the end of the phase.
If we were purely logical and not skipping steps:
1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for 3 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.

etc. etc. etc. until whatever turn:

1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for the now 4 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2d) Spore Mine 4 is not within 3" of an enemy and does not detonate.

You can re-arrange steps 2a, 2b, 2c, and 2d in whatever order you want, because of sequencing, but the whole action of Floating Death must be completed before you move on to another.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
This isn't really an issue of sequencing.

Every spore mine that is within 3" of an enemy unit at the end of the charge phase WILL blow up. Done. It's happening. You don't need to check them one at a time. Just like you don't need to check each unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit during the fight phase. If, at the beginning of the fight phase they are within 1" then during the fight phase it WILL fight. Even if during the phase from combat and models diieing it ends up more than 1" away by the time it gets selected to fight. It was within 1" when the phase started so it HAS to pile in and try to fight at some point during the phase.

The only thing that gets sequenced is picking which spore mine blows up first, and then which is next, and next, etc etc...

Which means the spore mines end up with a potentially infinite range.

When the charge phase ends, every spore mine that is within 3" will blow up. Again, just like when the fight phase begins, every unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit will fight.

Actually Lance, you are wrong about the fight phase. It only cares about the current state of play, and not what units were within 1" at the start of the phase. It's spelt out in the designers commentary.

Marmatag has it right. Checking distance is a part of the "floating death" rule. You don't have permission to resolve the first part of the rule for Instance A, B, and C, then continue the rest of it using those results. You must resolve an instance in it's entirety then go onto the next. Sequencing allows you to chose if you want to resolve it as A, B, C, or as C, B, A, or as any other order.

You actually have it wrong.. You are told that if they are within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the phase they go boom. When you reach the end of the phase, you have to check to see which are within 3" - your permission is Floating Death telling you to chack the distance at the end of the phase.. If there are more than one within 3", the ones within 3" at that time go boom, and you have to use sequencing to handle the damage. You don't have a choice on when you check the distance (it all happens at the end of the phase), and you have no choice but to use sequencing to resolve the damage from the ones that go boom...but the distance has to have been checked before using sequencing to know which ones are involved in sequencing.

BUUT you can't even begin to check the distances before invoking sequencing. You have to check the distances simultaneously, which means you need to sequence the distance-checking, and since you have no way to resolve the rule only half-way, whichever distance you sequence to measure first also gets its damage resolved first, since you can't measure the distance, then pause the rule, then move onto the next distance-measure while the first iteration of the rule remains unresolved.

You have it backwards - you can't even begin to invoke sequencing unless there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time. In order to know if there is more than one thing to resolve at the same time (end of the phase), you have to check distance to the enemy unit to know whether the spore mine goes boom. Unless you know that you have more than one thing happening, you don't know that sequencing is needed. That means distance checking is not sequenced, but has to occur before sequencing in order to know if it's going to be involved in the sequencing in the first place.

But you can't check distance (other than to pre-measure, which is "pre" because it's not the action) except as part of resolving the Floating Death rule at the end of the phase..


If we were purely logical and not skipping steps:
1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for 3 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.

etc. etc. etc. until whatever turn:

1) Do charge phase.
2) All floating deaths happen at once for the now 4 Spore Mines on the board.
- 2a) Spore Mine 1 is not within 3" of an enemy, and does not detonate.
- 2b) Spore Mine 2 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2c) Spore Mine 3 is within 3" of an enemy and detonates, doing d3 mortal wounds.
- 2d) Spore Mine 4 is not within 3" of an enemy and does not detonate.

You can re-arrange steps 2a, 2b, 2c, and 2d in whatever order you want, because of sequencing, but the whole action of Floating Death must be completed before you move on to another.

Simply not true. How do you know which units are within 3" at the end of the phase? By measuring. You don't invoke sequencing until you know you need sequencing. You are invoking sequencing before you know you need sequencing. You don't invoke sequencing to determine whether models are within 3" of an enemy unit, you only use it once you know which ones so that you can resolve their actions. In fact, you don't have permission to use sequencing until you know you have multiple things that require sequencing, which mandates you having to measure before invoking sequencing.

 doctortom wrote:
Simply not true. How do you know which units are within 3" at the end of the phase? By measuring. You don't invoke sequencing until you know you need sequencing. You are invoking sequencing before you know you need sequencing. You don't invoke sequencing to determine whether models are within 3" of an enemy unit, you only use it once you know which ones so that you can resolve their actions. In fact, you don't have permission to use sequencing until you know you have multiple things that require sequencing, which mandates you having to measure before invoking sequencing.

I completely agree with you...

... which is why I explicitly pointed out that you check Floating Death at the end of every fight charge phase. It does not detonate the mine under certain conditions, but you always always have to check for those conditions, and therefore always always have to sequence your Floating Deaths, though you can skip it if it's fairly obvious there's no enemy unit within 3".

Floating Death triggers at the end of the Fight charge phase. So you invoke all your Floating Deaths at the end of the Fight charge phase. Then, you sequence them (e.g. Floating Death for Spore Mine A will go before Floating Death for Spore Mine B).

Then, you begin following your sequencing:
Floating Death for Spore Mine A returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.
Floating Death for Spore Mine B may very well be within 3" of an enemy, but you can't look until you've resolved all the Floating Deaths you've sequenced to put before it.
If Floating Death B's resolution killed every enemy within 3" of Spore Mine C, then obviously when you move on to the "Floating Death for Spore Mine C" in your sequence, it's no longer within 3", and so it returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.

So, the difference of opinion seems to revolve around whether the turn goes like this:
1. [Charge Phase]
2. [Measuring for abilities that happen at the end of charge phase]
3. [Abilities activate if applicable]
4. [Fight Phase]

Or

1. [Charge Phase]
2. [Choose model that has "end of charge phase" ability, measure for ability, and resolve if applicable. Repeat]
3. [Fight Phase]

I would argue that there are no other instances in the game where you measure every potential action during a phase all at once. Regardless of whether we're talking shooting, psychic, aura abilities, what have you, you always check each unit/model to see whether they are still in range, whether target units are still in range, etc. "At the end of the charge phase" is just saying, "These abilities activate after the charge phase and before the fight phase," not, "everything happens all at once, unlike everything else in the game."

Anraykr the Traveller, for instance, has an ability that states "At the start of your Shooting phase, choose an enemy vehicle within 12" of Anrakyr the Traveller and roll a D6. On a 4+, choose a weapon from that vehicle. You may shoot with that weapon at another enemy unit." So let's say that Anrakyr was not a unique unit (which I realize he is), and I have two of him, both within range of a single vehicle that has a single health and plasma weapons. I could activate Anrakyr #1, pick the vehicle, shoot an overcharged plasma shot, potentially roll a 1 for the hit roll and destroy the vehicle. I could NOT then say, "Well, Anrakyr #2 was within range of a vehicle at the START of the of the shooting phase, so I get to use the same (now nonexistent) vehicle to shoot." The vehicle doesn't exist any more. The ability doesn't activate. You resolve each ability individually.

You have to resolve all Spore Mine Floating Death abilities prior to the start of the fight phase - but they don't all trigger at once. You still pick each model, resolve the rule, and then proceed. Measuring is a part of the rule - it still happens on a model by model and unit by unit basis.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Simply not true. How do you know which units are within 3" at the end of the phase? By measuring. You don't invoke sequencing until you know you need sequencing. You are invoking sequencing before you know you need sequencing. You don't invoke sequencing to determine whether models are within 3" of an enemy unit, you only use it once you know which ones so that you can resolve their actions. In fact, you don't have permission to use sequencing until you know you have multiple things that require sequencing, which mandates you having to measure before invoking sequencing.

I completely agree with you...

... which is why I explicitly pointed out that you check Floating Death at the end of every fight charge phase. It does not detonate the mine under certain conditions, but you always always have to check for those conditions, and therefore always always have to sequence your Floating Deaths, though you can skip it if it's fairly obvious there's no enemy unit within 3".

Floating Death triggers at the end of the Fight charge phase. So you invoke all your Floating Deaths at the end of the Fight charge phase. Then, you sequence them (e.g. Floating Death for Spore Mine A will go before Floating Death for Spore Mine B).

Then, you begin following your sequencing:
Floating Death for Spore Mine A returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.
Floating Death for Spore Mine B may very well be within 3" of an enemy, but you can't look until you've resolved all the Floating Deaths you've sequenced to put before it.
If Floating Death B's resolution killed every enemy within 3" of Spore Mine C, then obviously when you move on to the "Floating Death for Spore Mine C" in your sequence, it's no longer within 3", and so it returns a "no enemy within 3", didn't detonate" result.

If you completely agree with me, then you don't use sequencing until after you've determined which ones are within 3" of an enemy.

Please provide the RAW quote to indicate that you always have to sequence them. I don't see any justification or permission for sequencing until after you've determined which units are going to be involved in the sequencing, which means you've already determined which ones are involved by measuring. You don't get to sequence measuring the distance since you have to do that in order to determine who is involved in the sequencing.

Hi, thought I'd chime in on how the OP example should play out.

Quoted rules in question (emphasis mine):
Page 99 Codex: Tyranids Floating Death:
Floating Death: A Spore Mine explodes if it is within 3" of any enemy units at the end of any Charge phase. Each time a Spore Mine explodes, roll a D6; on a 1 it fails to inflict any harm, on a 2-5 it inflicts 1 mortal wound on the nearest enemy unit, and on a 6 it inflicts D3 mortal wounds on that unit. The Spore Mine is then destroyed.

Page 178 BRB Sequencing:
While playing WH40k, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time - normally 'at the end of the Charge phase', or 'before the battle begins'. When this happens during the game, the player whose turn it is chooses the order...

I have 3 spore mines, A B and C, located 3.1" away from Primaris Intercessor Adam and 6000" away from Primaris Intercessor Bartholomew, these are the only models on the board.

I charge the Primaris Intercessor with all 3 mines, surviving overwatch, and rolling a 3+ for each mine. The mines then go within 1" of Primaris Intercessor Adam.

In the above scenario, we have 3 spore mines within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the Charge Phase. Floating Death would occur for them, but because the rule on pg 99 of the Tyranid codex explicitly states *A* spore mine detonates if *IT* is within 3" of an enemy model at the end of the Charge Phase, you must sequence the multiple spore mines (because it is the same rule happening for 3 different models at the same time). So you would sequence as many others in the thread suggest:

End of Charge Phase, check that spore mine A is within 3" of an enemy, Resolve Floating death (Primaris Intercessor Adam takes a MW)
End of Charge Phase, check that spore mine B is within 3" of an enemy, Resolve Floating death (Primaris Intercessor Adam takes a MW, slaying him)
End of Charge Phase, check that spore mine C is within 3" of an enemy. Primaris Adam was slain, so Floating Death is not resolved. Spore mine C is free to move next turn (possibly blowing up, possibly giving up this barbaric warlike lifestyle and finding a nice cordyceps and settling down, raising a family)

So no, I don't believe spore mines have an unlimited range.

 doctortom wrote:

If you completely agree with me, then you don't use sequencing until after you've determined which ones are within 3" of an enemy.

Please provide the RAW quote to indicate that you always have to sequence them. I don't see any justification or permission for sequencing until after you've determined which units are going to be involved in the sequencing, which means you've already determined which ones are involved by measuring. You don't get to sequence measuring the distance since you have to do that in order to determine who is involved in the sequencing.

You can't measure for the ability without calling the ability. You can "pre-measure", which is different (and explicitly so, hence the "pre").

So you can pre-measure to determine which ones you will have to sequence (instead of bothering with declaring all of them, though a computer would), and then sequence them, and then measure again for each individual one since the ability mandates that you measure, but that does mean that sufficiently powerful detonations may mean that ones that started the phase within 3" will not be able to detonate when their Floating Death resolution is called, depending on how you decided to sequence it.

And the reason you need to sequence them all the time is that the ability triggers at the end of the Charge Phase. Automatically, not optionally. A computer system would, finding itself at the end of the charge phase, look at each iteration of Floating Death in a sequence (if it was presumably incapable of doing so simultaneously, like a real player) and then follow the floating death rules. In a majority of cases, this will be pointless, as the spores will not be within 3" of an enemy and calling the Floating Death iteration for a mine that isn't within 3" does nothing save satisfying the letter of the rules, but it does emphasize that, besides pre-measuring for convenience, there is technically no way to resolve the mines except one whole action at a time.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

If you completely agree with me, then you don't use sequencing until after you've determined which ones are within 3" of an enemy.

Please provide the RAW quote to indicate that you always have to sequence them. I don't see any justification or permission for sequencing until after you've determined which units are going to be involved in the sequencing, which means you've already determined which ones are involved by measuring. You don't get to sequence measuring the distance since you have to do that in order to determine who is involved in the sequencing.

You can't measure for the ability without calling the ability. You can "pre-measure", which is different (and explicitly so, hence the "pre").

So you can pre-measure to determine which ones you will have to sequence (instead of bothering with declaring all of them, though a computer would), and then sequence them, and then measure again for each individual one since the ability mandates that you measure, but that does mean that sufficiently powerful detonations may mean that ones that started the phase within 3" will not be able to detonate when their Floating Death resolution is called, depending on how you decided to sequence it.

And the reason you need to sequence them all the time is that the ability triggers at the end of the Charge Phase. Automatically, not optionally. A computer system would, finding itself at the end of the charge phase, look at each iteration of Floating Death in a sequence (if it was presumably incapable of doing so simultaneously, like a real player) and then follow the floating death rules. In a majority of cases, this will be pointless, as the spores will not be within 3" of an enemy and calling the Floating Death iteration for a mine that isn't within 3" does nothing save satisfying the letter of the rules, but it does emphasize that, besides pre-measuring for convenience, there is technically no way to resolve the mines except one whole action at a time.

It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

 doctortom wrote:

It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

Except you can not already know which ones explode until you use the Spore mine's Floating Death rule and measure and resolve each spore mine. You can not measure all at once you have to measure and resolve each rule then move onto the next one.

The rule happens at the end of the charge phase. You then pick a spore mine with the rule. You measure to see if it is within range, then follow the rest of the rules and then move on to the next mine, see if it is within range etc...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

This is absolutely correct.

You have to sequence all instances of floating death, even if you're outside of 3", just to know that they don't explode.

A computer would apply floating death for every single Spore in a sequence, even if they were obviously outside of 3". Because you're sequencing the whole floating death package, which includes the measurement.

If the rule said, "if a spore mine is within 3" at the end of the charge phase, apply <Floating Death>" that would be different, because then the floating death events would be queued as the measurement happened separately.

Measuring is part of the floating death action. There is no getting around this. You MUST sequence all floating death rules. Even if you're outside of 3", they must all be sequenced. This is how it works.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.

You continue to iterate the same points without understanding me, so I will once again reword my reply:
What forces you to sequence is the Floating Death rule. In every case. Because every single Floating Death rule on the table is called at the end of the Charge Phase, even ones that are not within 3" of the enemy. Generally, you can skip those for convenience, but being within 3" is required for Floating Death to proceed onto the next step (dice roll to inflict wounds), not required for Floating Death to happen at all. Floating Death is a passive, "always on" ability, which constantly checks at the end of the Charge Phase for the criteria in the rule. You must, therefore, sequence the order in which these multiple Floating Deaths are enacted. Once a Floating Death is reached in the sequence that does have an enemy unit with 3", the rest of the rule finishes (like an if-then statement in a boolean system), before you move on to the next iteration of the rule that you've sequenced.

Every single model with the Floating Death rule is involved at the end of the Charge Phase, not merely the ones within 3" of the enemy. Which ones explode, or not, is determined purely by the sequence you choose to resolve those Floating Deaths in, because the act of resolving a Floating Death includes measuring, then checking the measurement against a set of criteria, and then obeying the standard logic of either detonating or not based on the fairly simple and clear wording of the rule.

It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.

You continue to iterate the same points without understanding me, so I will once again reword my reply:
What forces you to sequence is the Floating Death rule. In every case. Because every single Floating Death rule on the table is called at the end of the Charge Phase, even ones that are not within 3" of the enemy. Generally, you can skip those for convenience, but being within 3" is required for Floating Death to proceed onto the next step (dice roll to inflict wounds), not required for Floating Death to happen at all. Floating Death is a passive, "always on" ability, which constantly checks at the end of the Charge Phase for the criteria in the rule. You must, therefore, sequence the order in which these multiple Floating Deaths are enacted. Once a Floating Death is reached in the sequence that does have an enemy unit with 3", the rest of the rule finishes (like an if-then statement in a boolean system), before you move on to the next iteration of the rule that you've sequenced.

Every single model with the Floating Death rule is involved at the end of the Charge Phase, not merely the ones within 3" of the enemy. Which ones explode, or not, is determined purely by the sequence you choose to resolve those Floating Deaths in, because the act of resolving a Floating Death includes measuring, then checking the measurement against a set of criteria, and then obeying the standard logic of either detonating or not based on the fairly simple and clear wording of the rule.

You seem to assume I don't understand you. I do, but I just reject your analysis, just as you are rejecting mine (but I'm not accusing you of not understanding it). Basically, we're not going to come to an agreement on this, so we might as well just agree to disagree on it instead of going to fill another 5 pages.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
It's not a "pre" measure, it's measuring to determine whether the spore mine explodes. You already have the measurement to determine which ones explode. The ability says nothing about measuring again once you have the measurement to determine which ones are involved; that is something you are making up. Sequencing is mandatory for these, but it is resolving the effect of each one exploding; it is not determining which ones explode in the first place. You already know that, and don't determine it again.

You aren't allowed to measure to see if a mine explodes without first calling the Floating Death rule, as you have no instructions to do so until you call the rule. So you must finish the resolution of the rule, before you move on to finish the rest of your sequenced Floating Deaths, since the only thing that triggers the rule is the end of the charge phase, and not being within 3" of the enemy.

You can pre-measure for convenience, so you don't have to call Floating Death for literally every single spore mine on the table, but technically, such pre-measuring is not required to run the Floating Death script at the end of the Charge Phase, and you don't measure to see if the mine detonates until Floating Death explicitly instructs you to, which means you must subsequently finish the instruction (instead of pausing and starting another iteration of Floating Death without finishing the first, then finishing the first later).

You can reference the Floating Death rule all you want - it doesn't force you to sequence. What forces you to sequence is having multiple spore mine units within 3". That's not a pre-measurement, it's measuring to determine what units are in range and will require the sequencing. It is required because you don't sequence unless you need it. When you determine who explodes, THEN you go to sequencing. These are all simultaneous, but resolved through sequencing...AFTER you have determined who is involved. You are following their explicit instructions by measuring first, as well as following the rules for sequencing that doesn't say you have permission to invoke it unless there are multiple things happening simultaneously. Measuring to the enemy unit is not an action that triggers sequencing, it is only a determination of what units will be involved. it's the spore mines within 3" of the enemy unit exploding that are the actions happening simultaneously that trigger sequencing.

You continue to iterate the same points without understanding me, so I will once again reword my reply:
What forces you to sequence is the Floating Death rule. In every case. Because every single Floating Death rule on the table is called at the end of the Charge Phase, even ones that are not within 3" of the enemy. Generally, you can skip those for convenience, but being within 3" is required for Floating Death to proceed onto the next step (dice roll to inflict wounds), not required for Floating Death to happen at all. Floating Death is a passive, "always on" ability, which constantly checks at the end of the Charge Phase for the criteria in the rule. You must, therefore, sequence the order in which these multiple Floating Deaths are enacted. Once a Floating Death is reached in the sequence that does have an enemy unit with 3", the rest of the rule finishes (like an if-then statement in a boolean system), before you move on to the next iteration of the rule that you've sequenced.

Every single model with the Floating Death rule is involved at the end of the Charge Phase, not merely the ones within 3" of the enemy. Which ones explode, or not, is determined purely by the sequence you choose to resolve those Floating Deaths in, because the act of resolving a Floating Death includes measuring, then checking the measurement against a set of criteria, and then obeying the standard logic of either detonating or not based on the fairly simple and clear wording of the rule.

This is correct. Sequencing enters the occasion before you even measure. Therefor you sequence the spore mines 1 at a time. So you check the first spore it's in range, explodes kills the only unit in 3 inches. Then you move on to spore 2 and it no longer has anything in range so doesn't explode. Then spore 3 to whatever. Per the rules though you must check every spore even the ones who aren't even close to 3 inches.

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

Tell me, what allows you to determine if the rule applies?

Why don't you measure 6" instead of 3"?

Answer: because the floating death rule instructs you how to measure, because measurement is part of the rule.

Unless you can create an argument which allows you to measure and determine a mine is eligible to explode without using the instructions in floating death, you're wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.

Exactly.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.

Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By measuring. THEN, you go to sequencing IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. This is the point that you keep missing.



EDIT: Here, this might make it more clear. For the Charge phase, every unit within 12" is eligible to charge. You don't sequence measuring to each unit to determine whether it it within 12" and is eligible. The same thing applies here - you don't sequence until a spore mine is within 3" of an enemy unit. You don't sequence determining measuring to determine which ones are within 3", just like you don't sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.

Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By measuring. THEN, you go to sequencing IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. This is the point that you keep missing.

So, I guess this means you aren't willing to agree to disagree on this?

Floating death does not apply to each spore mine within 3".

Floating death applies to each spore mine, and then has an effect if the mine is within 3".

There is no other way to read this. The floating death rule INCLUDES the measurement. You cannot measure for floating death without invoking floating death.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

The problem with your analysis is that you miss my point:

The rule applies at the end of every charge phase, bang, boom, done.

It just doesn't do anything until it finds itself within 3" of an enemy, at which point you have already started the rule's resolution process by measuring.

Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By measuring. THEN, you go to sequencing IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. This is the point that you keep missing.

So, I guess this means you aren't willing to agree to disagree on this?

I am always willing to agree to disagree, but the flaws in your logic are so clear it almost hurts, and I am disappointed you can't see them.

My comments in red:
"Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. This is demonstrably not true, as having a unit within 3" is not a requirement to call the Floating Death rule. It is merely a requirement to follow the rest of it. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By seeing which units on the table have the rule... By measuring. No, measuring is merely part of how you complete the rule, not how you determine who is eligible. Anyone with the rule is eligible, as it is a "passive" ability, to use video-game terms. THEN, you go to sequencing No, this is too late; you would have had to sequence the order you want to resolve your Floating Deaths in, before you started to resolve them by measuring. IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule.As long as there is more than one unit on the board with the rule, then there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. Because it's a passive rule. It may not do anything except under specific conditions, but it is "always on". You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. Yes you do, this is literally what you have to sequence: the rule abruptly applies to everyone simultaneously at a single point in time: the end of the charge phase. Regardless of whether or not enemy units are within 3" (though it doesn't do anything if they're not. This is the point that you keep missing."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Extra post to address your edit:

 doctortom wrote:
EDIT: Here, this might make it more clear. For the Charge phase, every unit within 12" is eligible to charge. You don't sequence measuring to each unit to determine whether it it within 12" and is eligible. The same thing applies here - you don't sequence until a spore mine is within 3" of an enemy unit. You don't sequence determining measuring to determine which ones are within 3", just like you don't sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge.

Actually, yes, you really should sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge. It rarely (not willing to say never) matters, but it is technically an event that happens all at the same time and must be sequenced.

Note that I distinguish this from pre-measuring, which can be used in lieu of actual event-related measuring, but is actually difference (hence the term "pre"-measuring).

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Extra post to address your edit:

 doctortom wrote:
EDIT: Here, this might make it more clear. For the Charge phase, every unit within 12" is eligible to charge. You don't sequence measuring to each unit to determine whether it it within 12" and is eligible. The same thing applies here - you don't sequence until a spore mine is within 3" of an enemy unit. You don't sequence determining measuring to determine which ones are within 3", just like you don't sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge.

Actually, yes, you really should sequence measuring to see who is eligible to charge. It rarely (not willing to say never) matters, but it is technically an event that happens all at the same time and must be sequenced.

Note that I distinguish this from pre-measuring, which can be used in lieu of actual event-related measuring, but is actually difference (hence the term "pre"-measuring).

This is why we should just agree to disagree. We have a fundamentally different viewpoint here if you're saying you should sequence measuring to determine who is eligible to charge. We're never going to resolve our different viewpoint with a fundamental difference in viewpoint like that. I don't see that measurement as part of the sequencing, and you do.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I am always willing to agree to disagree, but the flaws in your logic are so clear it almost hurts, and I am disappointed you can't see them.

My comments in red:
"Yes, it applies at the end of every charge phase. It applies to each spore mine unit within 3" at the end of the phase. This is demonstrably not true, as having a unit within 3" is not a requirement to call the Floating Death rule. It is merely a requirement to follow the rest of it. How do you determine which ones it applies to? By seeing which units on the table have the rule... By measuring. No, measuring is merely part of how you complete the rule, not how you determine who is eligible. Anyone with the rule is eligible, as it is a "passive" ability, to use video-game terms. THEN, you go to sequencing No, this is too late; you would have had to sequence the order you want to resolve your Floating Deaths in, before you started to resolve them by measuring. IF there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule.As long as there is more than one unit on the board with the rule, then there is more than one unit meeting the criteria for using the rule. Because it's a passive rule. It may not do anything except under specific conditions, but it is "always on". You don't sequence getting to determine whether a rule applies. Yes you do, this is literally what you have to sequence: the rule abruptly applies to everyone simultaneously at a single point in time: the end of the charge phase. Regardless of whether or not enemy units are within 3" (though it doesn't do anything if they're not. This is the point that you keep missing."

This (the above) is a great breakdown of how it works.

Basically:
1) Is is the end of the Charge Phase? If yes Proceed to #2
2) Does any model have the Floating Death rule? If yes proceed to #3
3) Is there more than one Floating Death rule? If yes proceed to #4
4) Use sequencing rules. Go to #5
5) Does any model have the Floating Death rule that has not been resolved? If yes proceed to #6 if No, then proceed to the next phase.
6) Pick a model with the Floating Death rule and resolve it. Go to #5

DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?

 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?

Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?

Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

I agree with this 100%.

But it does not look like sequencing comes into play with the charge rules, so it does not matter.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?

Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

I agree with this 100%.

But it does not look like sequencing comes into play with the charge rules, so it does not matter.

You charge one unit at a time, and the effects of charging can effect what units can fire overwatch (especially with Tau). Also, people will know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many. If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines.

 doctortom wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
DeathReaper, do you require all your opponents to sequence measuring to all units at the beginning of the charge phase in order to determine if they are eligible to charge, or do you just let them do that and then sequence the eligible units?

Not to steal DeathReaper's thunder, but I do let my opponents pre-measure their charges, and then skip the actual measuring for eligibility, as I generally think that the pre-measuring is accurate and there is no specific "reason" to force them to sequence the actual 'event' measuring.

If there was, however, they absolutely should, and the same goes for the event measuring here in this thread, where it absolutely does matter.

I agree with this 100%.

But it does not look like sequencing comes into play with the charge rules, so it does not matter.

You charge one unit at a time, and the effects of charging can effect what units can fire overwatch (especially with Tau). Also, people will know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many. If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines.

Pre-measuring is a thing. They can absolutely know if their units are within 12". They can know how far every single one of their units has to charge, down to the millimetre, if they want. Just like you can find out if a spore mine is within 3" or not. You just cant detonate it until you call the Floating Death rule, which pre-measuring does not (hence the pre-).

You are deluded if you think I somehow would deny my opponents the ability to pre-measure before declaring charges. Pre-measuring is explicitly allowed, but it is not part of sequencing. You can pre-measure for spore mines too, they just don't detonate unless you're actually calling the Floating Death rule. You can check if a spore mine has an enemy within 3" seventeen times at the end of the Charge Phase, if you really wanted to, but none of them will actually make it detonate.

And the sequence in which you charge absolutely matters, and includes measuring, so yes, I should be sequencing measuring. But, like I said before (not that you apparently bothered to read it), I tend to trust their pre-measurement and waive the need to measure again in sequence because it's convenient.

EDIT:
Sometimes, however, I do make them measure again, if, for example, one of their units charged and disrupted the charge of a second unit. I'm not trusting the pre-measuring there, because the route taken by said second unit has changed since it was last pre-measured. So yes, an example of me forcing my opponent to sequence measuring for charges.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
It's pretty "obvious" my Conscripts have 20 wounds each. Prove me wrong.

Ah, the BCB equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting, "LALALALALALALALALALALA!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 doctortom wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
It's fun being on the same side as Unit for a change

You cannot measure the 3" to apply floating death without applying the entirety of the floating death rule. There is nothing that allows to sequence half of a rule.

You are not sequencing half a rule, you are sequencing the rule after you have determined if the rule applies, but, as I told Unit, I don't see us convincing each other, so we should just agree to disagree on this and respect that we aren't going to change each other's minds on it.

The problem here is that you really have no opportunity to "discover" requirement of multiple sequencing. (Edit: apologies if this is already addressed, I replied immediately on seeing this post)

You check Spore Mine A. It's within 3", so you do NOT then check the next one, because you have to immediately resolve Mine A. As you continue across your line of Spore Mines, you do it the same way. As soon as you find one within 3", you don't continue checking for more, you immediately resolve it.

Really, you're forced to follow individual sequencing by nature of the rule "Floating Death" itself. Never is there any requirement to invoke the sequencing rules.

Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.

 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.

But they don't happen at the same time, because you resolve one as soon as you find it. Not find one in range and then check the rest.

 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.

Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.

Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.

The disconnect is in how we treat measuring. I'm treating it as something done in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing (if there are multiple units that will/could go at the same time), while you see it as part of the sequencing process itself. I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with it. I think that's why should just agree to disagree, because we're not going to convince each other on that fundamental point.

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.

Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.

The disconnect is in how we treat measuring. I'm treating it as something done in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing, while you see it as part of the sequencing process itself. I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with it.

But if you see the difference between pre-measuring (i.e. measuring "in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing") and actual measuring for the rule Floating Death, then why can't you understand that it's fine to skip all the other Floating Deaths if pre-measuring says there will be no effect on the game and only resolve the ones that are within 3" - doing them one at a time, and measuring each subsequent one to make sure it's still within 3" after the first exploded, since you are only just now starting its Floating Death?

Floating Death does not require the unit be within 3" to trigger. Show me where it says that.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Unit, I did "bother to read it", so I don't really need you dripping condescension here. We can agree to disagree, but don't be copping an attitude like that.


Sequencing - "While playing Warhammer 40,,,, you'll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time" You still haven't provided proof that determining ir a rule needs resolution is part of the resolution requiring sequencing. I maintain that determining whether a rule applies is not part of sequencing, it's only the resolution of that rule. You see it differently. I see it as being hypocritical to allow "premeasuring" which is actually measuring without forcing sequencing in one case and forcing it on another. The "premeasurement" does affect things as I pointed out. You obviously don't see it that way. We're not going to agree on this, so we might as well accept that fact.

Alright, alright, let's accept that fact. I just wish you would understand what my point was, because I agree with your interpretation 100%. I just don't understand where the disconnect is between us, which I was trying to get at. I guess the disconnect is the difference between measuring-to-fulfill-a-rule and pre-measuring, but I'm sure you understand that difference as well. I don't get it.

The disconnect is in how we treat measuring. I'm treating it as something done in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing, while you see it as part of the sequencing process itself. I see what you're saying, but I just don't agree with it.

But if you see the difference between pre-measuring (i.e. measuring "in order to determine whether a unit is eligible for sequencing") and actual measuring for the rule Floating Death, then why can't you understand that it's fine to skip all the other Floating Deaths if pre-measuring says there will be no effect on the game and only resolve the ones that are within 3" - doing them one at a time, and measuring each subsequent one to make sure it's still within 3" after the first exploded, since you are only just now starting its Floating Death?

I treat it the way I do measuring to see who can charge - the "pre-measurements" you call them can affect the game then as well. Knowing the distance on the units beforehand lets you know your chances on whether they might make a charge, which could affect your decision on whether some other units charge or nor (in addition to the other things I had mentioned). I see those measurements merely as determining whether a rule applies or not, as something required before sequencing, instead of forcing sequencing on something that could hypothetically be involved or not. If it's not close enough, it's not going to explode, therefore the rule does not apply. That measurement for the Spore Mines, determining whether they are going in or not, is already done at the end of the phase with that initial measurement. I don't see it as a "pre" measurement at that time. You seem to not understand that I don't accept it as merely a pre-measurement.

The rule applies whether or not you're within 3" of something. Because the RULE ITSELF is not predicated on range.

 doctortom wrote:
You charge one unit at a time, and the effects of charging can effect what units can fire overwatch (especially with Tau). Also, people will know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many. If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines.

Yes, "You charge one unit at a time" but I do not see how that is relavant to the Floating Death rule.

Charging (or selecting a unit to charge with) is a totally different situation. You do not have to choose any units to charge if you do not want to. So you dont need to "know how many units they have within range before charging with the first unit instead of guessing how many." Sequencing does not come into play because the charge rules themselves tell you exactly how to resolve multiple units charging.

Floating death does not mention sequencing at all, so we have to use the default rules for sequencing.

So saying "If you don't force sequencing on measuring there, you shouldn't be forcing sequencing on measuring for the spore mines." is an incorrect comparrison since the two situations are not even remotely similar.

Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.

Just post to clear up the muddle..
if I have 6 units of 3 spore mines charge into single 1” base model enemy with one wound left... every single spore mine are within 3” at end of charge phase on that poor model..

How can we work out for that?

 doctortom wrote:
Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.

I see what you mean - since the charge phase begins with, "Any unit within 12" of an enemy unit can make a charge move," you're saying that the measuring is effectively done outside of the charge move itself - you measure for everyone, then you start the charge sequence, you don't measure for one unit and then resolve the charge just for that unit prior to making any other measurements.

I would argue that charging still follows different rules, since the phase as a whole applies to every unit. Once you select a unit, in every case, you follow the rules until the sequence is resolved, and then move on to the next. With the Spore Mines, there's no phase rule that says, "Now, check for proximity abilities."

In other words, the flow for Charging is: Phase begins -> Verify which units can charge -> Select unit to charge -> Follow the rules until resolved.

But for Spore Mines, the ability that asks you to measure is already contained in a SPECIFIC unit, which means you've already selected which unit to resolve. The measuring takes place as part of a unit-specific rule, and thus you don't measure for every unit simultaneously - you measure for the first unit you selected, resolve appropriately, and then move on to the next.

Solidcrash wrote:
Just post to clear up the muddle..
if I have 6 units of 3 spore mines charge into single 1” base model enemy with one wound left... every single spore mine are within 3” at end of charge phase on that poor model..

How can we work out for that?

Well, that's the debate. I would argue that you would select a spore mine (any one you like, really), measure whether it's within 3", blow it up, resolve the mortal wounds. If the enemy model is dead, no other spores are within 3" of an enemy model, and the remaining 17 spores are still alive and floating.

 doctortom wrote:
Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.

Measuring if they are within range to charge is done after you select a unit to charge with. If they are not within 12" you do not proceed with the rest of the charge rules.

You can't force the measuring sequence on charging units because every unit does not automatically have to charge, you can choose to not charge with any units even if they are in range. unlike Spore Mines.

That is why it was an incorrect comparison.

Archebius wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Measuring if they are within range to charge and measuring if spore mines are within range to blow up is not an incorrect comparison, both are measuring to see if the units are eligible (or forced in the case of spore mines) to take a subsequent action.

I see what you mean - since the charge phase begins with, "Any unit within 12" of an enemy unit can make a charge move," you're saying that the measuring is effectively done outside of the charge move itself - you measure for everyone, then you start the charge sequence, you don't measure for one unit and then resolve the charge just for that unit prior to making any other measurements.

You have to follow step 1 of the charging rules which is "Choose Unit to Charge With". Once you do you can measure to see if the unit is in range. If they are they are an eligible unit to make the charge roll. They only need to be within 12 inches to make a charge roll, but you can choose any unit (with some restrictions about advance etc...) to start step 1 of the Charge rules.

You can of course Pre-Measure, and see if it is even worth it to use the Charge rules starting with step 1, but measuring is done in Step 1.

This is backed up by Step 2, the "Choose Targets" step, that says "once you have chosen an eligible unit" you can choose any unit, but only an eligible unit can "Choose Targets"