torblind wrote: Can stratagems that are played at the end of my turn be considered not played in a phase, and hence can be played more than once?
No. The end of your turn is the end of the morale phase. There is no instant in time between the end of your morale phase and the start of your opponents movement phase.
torblind wrote: The ones that gives a necron unit +1 on save rolls till the beginning of my next turn
I see. No, you can't use it multiple times then. The end of your turn is still in the Morale Phase.
More correctly any "at the end of the x phase" actions are not during the phase.
Rulebook FAQ wrote:Q: If I set up a unit on the battlefield as reinforcements at the end of my Movement phase, can I then use any Stratagems that are used ‘during your Movement phase’? A: No, unless the Stratagem specifically says otherwise.
So considering this in relation to the Strategic Discipline rule being:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
Which means, go nuts using the end of phase/turn stratagem as much as you want!
Sorry but that is not true. End of Phase and End of Turn are not the same as "end of a battle round".
The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end". "End of Phase" actions very much still happen during the phase.
The stratagem in question says "Use this Stratagem at the end of your turn", not "Use this Stratagem at the end of a battle round" so that FAQ doesn't apply here.
BaconCatBug wrote: Sorry but that is not true. End of Turn is not the same as "end of a battle round".
The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end".
And turn is an example of a time occurring outside of a phase, just like end of battle round is.
BaconCatBug wrote: Sorry but that is not true. End of Turn is not the same as "end of a battle round".
The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end".
And turn is an example of a time occurring outside of a phase, just like end of battle round is.
End of phase is still in a phase.
No, it isn't. There is nothing to suggest that it is. The FAQ does not mention "end of turn" stratagems. The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale phase. There is no in-between time. Please provide a rules quote to suggest that there is some sort of magical not-phase-phase between them.
The rulebook says "Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:" There is no step between the end of the Morale Phase and the start of the Movement Phase.
The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: Sorry but that is not true. End of Turn is not the same as "end of a battle round".
The reason you can't use the stratagems after units arrive at the end of the movement phase is because if you did, then the units didn't arrive at the "end".
And turn is an example of a time occurring outside of a phase, just like end of battle round is.
End of phase is still in a phase.
No, it isn't. There is nothing to suggest that it is. The FAQ does not mention "end of turn" stratagems. The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale phase. There is no in-between time. Please provide a rules quote to suggest that there is some sort of magical not-phase-phase between them.
The rulebook says "Each turn consists of a series of phases, which must be resolved in order. The phases are as follows:"
Completely disagree.
End of turn is functionally the same as end of battle round , and is a perfectly valid example (of which we are given only two, but not as an all inclusive list) of a time a stratagem can occur outside of a phase.
You can disagree all you want, you're still wrong. You're making up rules.
Please, provide a rules citation for your "end of turn is functionally the same as end of battle round " claim. Because the end of the battle round happens after both players take a turn, they are not the same thing.
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.
Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.
Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?
No, that's not what it means. You can't use it after something happens at the "end" of the phase, because if you did it wouldn't have been the "end" when the thing happened.
Example: A unit arrives at the end of the movement phase. If you use a stratagem after they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase.
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.
Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?
No, that's not what it means. You can't use it after something happens at the "end" of the phase, because if you did it wouldn't have been the "end" when the thing happened.
Example: A unit arrives at the end of the movement phase. If you use a stratagem after they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase.
Let me explain further then. You consider the "end of phase" to either be a period of time after the "during of phase" or an instant that you sequence out all simultaneous actions that occur "at the end of the phase".
In either case neither of these are considered "during" the phase as explained by the FAQ (If they were considered to be "during" then you could play a "during phase" Stratagem, either by just playing it if you consider "end of phase" to be a period of time, or sequencing out your simultaneous actions)
As of such you can play as many "at the end of the phase" Stratagems as you want as Strategic Discipline only applies "during" a phase.
That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
This is the allow for certain actions/stratagems/etc to occur in some semblance of order, as in the FAQ quote above stating that models arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase.
Strats used "at the end of phase X" are still occurring during phase X and can be used only once. The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase, so the Reclaim a Lost Empire strat can be used only once.
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Gojiratoho wrote: Phases have 3 parts
arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase.
The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase.
Citation needed.
We know that an end of battle round is distinct, and the wording in the turn sequence is the same for the end of turns.
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
Also, this is somewhat tangential, but what about the "Beginning of the Turn?"
Does a Sororitas player re-rolling to get their Act of Faith count as having used the re-roll stratagem for their Movement Phase? What about if they re-roll a unit's attacks when it Fights as a result of an Act of Faith, or to re-roll the number of wounds restored (1d3) as a result of an Act of Faith? Those are all "Movement Phase" re-rolls and therefore they couldn't e.g. re-roll an advance roll later in the turn?
Gojiratoho wrote: Phases have 3 parts
arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase.
The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase.
Citation needed.
We know that an end of battle round is distinct, and the wording in the turn sequence is the same for the end of turns.
"Phases have 3 parts"
Citation:
Context clues sprinkled throughout the rules. Necron example:
Dimensional Corridor Stratagem, Eternity Gate ability from the Monolith, Translocation Crypt Stratagem
These three abilities occur each in a different part of the Movement phase, as dictated in their rules.
Dimensional Corridor happens at the start of my movement phase. If I move any of my other units first, I cannot use this ability
Eternity Gate ability happens during the movement phase but before I move the Monolith. I can move my entire army (save the Monolith) and still activate this ability.
Translocation Crypt says I can set up the unit I used this strat on at the end of my movement phase. Once I set them up, I can no longer move any units in my army (unless they also have rules allowing for movement/set up at the end of my movement phase)
"Units arriving at the end of the move phase cannot be affected by strats that happen during the move phase."
Citation: See above, there are 3 distinct parts of each phase. This was also addressed in the Main Rules FAQ and is quoted earlier in this thread.
"The end of your turn is the end of the Morale phase."
This one I'll admit has no clear citation, but is inferred that the end of morale is also the end of turn (I'm unaware of any other strats/abilities that occur at "end of turn". If you've got examples I can research, please let me know them). Also, the FAQ only cites an exception to Strategic Discipline for strats that are used during deployment, and nothing there suggests exceptions happen at any other time.
EDIT: Oh, I see. No, I know you can't re-roll a re-roll. But Sororitas get an entire phase, essentially for a unit before the Movement Phase at the start of their turn. With enough CP, every roll during that could be re-rolled, presumably?
If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
BaconCatBug wrote: If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
Well that's what I'm asking about. I'm not sure what to think, and I've seen both points of view in this thread with no consensus.
BaconCatBug wrote: If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
Well that's what I'm asking about. I'm not sure what to think, and I've seen both points of view in this thread with no consensus.
Reading the index, I see it says eg. "The unit can immediately move as if it were the movement phase"
The "as if it were a .. phase" , might result in stratagems being allowed only once, as if it were a ... phase. But thats for a different thread.
BaconCatBug wrote: If you think that the beginning of the phase is a magical place with rainbows and unicorns that isn't actually part of the phase, sure. The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
Well that's what I'm asking about. I'm not sure what to think, and I've seen both points of view in this thread with no consensus.
Reading the index, I see it says eg. "The unit can immediately move as if it were the movement phase"
The "as if it were a .. phase" , might result in stratagems being allowed only once, as if it were a ... phase. But thats for a different thread.
I would consider that evidence the other way; e.g. that the whole process isn't in the movement phase. If it was already the movement phase, it wouldn't have to pretend to be the movement phase for the movement portion of AOF.
JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
No, it doesn't say that at all. It's saying you can't use "during" stratagems after the "end" of the phase.
Um, hate to break it to you, but if you can't use "during" stratagems then that's because it's not "during" that phase. And who was saying that we were using the stratagems after the phase has ended?
No, that's not what it means. You can't use it after something happens at the "end" of the phase, because if you did it wouldn't have been the "end" when the thing happened.
Example: A unit arrives at the end of the movement phase. If you use a stratagem after they arrive, then they didn't arrive at the end of the phase.
I actually agree with you on this one for the most part but you are wrong that you cannot use a stratagem after nits arrive from reserves. You can use "end of phase" stratagems after reserves due to sequecning.
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
He's saying the new FAQ says you can't use stratagems that say "during" the phase at the end of the phase. The question was about casting something on reinforcements coming onto the board, which happens at the end of the movement phase, and they have now officially said that you can't cast a strat that you use during the phase on reinforcements. they arrive at the end of the phase, but if you are casting a "during" the phase power after they arrive, then they would not have been arriving at the end of the movement phase and you would have acted illegally. I don't see where you're coming up with him saying that you can't use "at the end of the movement phase" stratatems at the end of the movement phase or "during the movement phase" stratagems during the movement phase. He's saying you don't use "during the movement phase" stratagems at the end of the movement phase, as per the FAQ.
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JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
Are they stratagems that say you can use them at the end of the phase?
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
He's saying the new FAQ says you can't use stratagems that say "during" the phase at the end of the phase. The question was about casting something on reinforcements coming onto the board, which happens at the end of the movement phase, and they have now officially said that you can't cast a strat that you use during the phase on reinforcements. they arrive at the end of the phase, but if you are casting a "during" the phase power after they arrive, then they would not have been arriving at the end of the movement phase and you would have acted illegally. I don't see where you're coming up with him saying that you can't use "at the end of the movement phase" stratatems at the end of the movement phase or "during the movement phase" stratagems during the movement phase. He's saying you don't use "during the movement phase" stratagems at the end of the movement phase, as per the FAQ.
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JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
Are they stratagems that say you can use them at the end of the phase?
I started by asking about a stratagem I can play for necrons at the end of my turn. It gives +1A and +1 on save rolls till the beginning of my next turn. To weather the storm.
BaconCatBug wrote: That is not what the FAQ says at all. It says you can't use the stratagems, but that doesn't suddenly make the end of the phase not happen in that phase.
Then enlighten me. What logical reason would prevent the "during" stratagem being used during the phase?
Weather you consider the "end of phase" to be instant or a period of time, there would be allowance in the rules to either a) sequence the "during phase" stratagem for after the unit has arrived from reserves, or b) play it in the period of time that is allocated for "end of phase". Clearly GW have ruled otherwise, and there is a reason. The reason I'm putting forwards it that "at the end of the phase" is not "during" the phase, but I'm open to other reasons.
Because it would mean you illegally placed the models that come at the end of the phase. If you use a stratagem after the models arrive, then the models did not arrive at the end of the phase.
Can you be more precise with your language? Surely you're not saying I can't use any "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" after I've put down reinforcements?
Do you consider the "end of movement phase" to be an instant to be sequenced or a period of time?
He's saying the new FAQ says you can't use stratagems that say "during" the phase at the end of the phase. The question was about casting something on reinforcements coming onto the board, which happens at the end of the movement phase, and they have now officially said that you can't cast a strat that you use during the phase on reinforcements. they arrive at the end of the phase, but if you are casting a "during" the phase power after they arrive, then they would not have been arriving at the end of the movement phase and you would have acted illegally. I don't see where you're coming up with him saying that you can't use "at the end of the movement phase" stratatems at the end of the movement phase or "during the movement phase" stratagems during the movement phase. He's saying you don't use "during the movement phase" stratagems at the end of the movement phase, as per the FAQ.
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JakeSiren wrote: The key point I was making is that the FAQ demonstrates that the end of phase is not during the phase. Which means the restriction on strategic discipline is not in effect at the end of a phase. Notice the usage of during phase in both rules?
Are they stratagems that say you can use them at the end of the phase?
Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
To back up BaconCatBug, only one thing can happen at the End of a Phase because anything else happening would be after the End of the Phase meaning the thing that just happened at the End of the Phase actually occurred during the phase. GW has placed an exception for multiple things that must happen at the End of the Phase to be sequenced one after another. This does not create an exception allowing you to do an action that isn't an End of the Phase action.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
The question starts off a little different, but trust me it's the same discussion. Anyone fascinated with this topic has 12 pages more to read at their leisure!
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
Specifically, a robust conversation about the rules and to reassess our assumptions about the rules in light of new information. In addition to understand what the implications of said assumptions are.
JohnnyHell wrote: The actual logical explanation is actually that the ‘end’ is ‘during’ the Phase, but a new FAQ special rule disallows using stratagems then.
Sure, a possibility that I'm willing to consider.
What evidence do you have that this is the case over the simpler explanation that "at the end of the movement phase" is not considered as "during the movement phase" for rules purposes?
This also seems to be related, although it is talking about events at the start of a battle round. The consensus seemed to be that that was not in a phase, but in this thread people seem to be leaning the other way.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
torblind wrote: Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale Phase.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
I think your argument is confused, or you haven't articulated it fully. Your first and second paragraphs seem to be in disagreement as to how you play stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" and what is permitted.
For clarity GW have specifically shutdown playing "during your movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" on units that have arrived from reserve. Nor was I arguing that we should be able to play any "during" stratagems "at the end".
For a Stratagem to be played you need to meet the criteria for playing it. For our discussions either "during the movement phase" or "at the end of the movement phase". If we have multiple "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems we are then allowed to sequence them with other "at the end of the movement phase" actions as you have rightly identified in your first paragraph. We are unable to play any "during the movement phase" stratagems as it is no longer "during the movement phase". This is where you have your disconnect however.
At this point I want to quote strategic discipline for you:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline applies. But it also allows us to play stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is NOT considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline does not apply. But it also prevents us from playing any stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
You want "at the end of the movement phase" to be both during and not during the movement phase - during for the purpose of Strategic Discipline, and not during for Strategem use. This is not supported by the rules.
Games Workshop have ruled that you can't play "during the movement phase" stratagems at "the end of the movement phase". Why? I put forwards the reasonable argument that "the end of the movement phase" is not during the movement phase. This in turn means that strategic discipline does not apply and you can play a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem as many times as you would like.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
I think your argument is confused, or you haven't articulated it fully. Your first and second paragraphs seem to be in disagreement as to how you play stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" and what is permitted.
For clarity GW have specifically shutdown playing "during your movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" on units that have arrived from reserve. Nor was I arguing that we should be able to play any "during" stratagems "at the end".
For a Stratagem to be played you need to meet the criteria for playing it. For our discussions either "during the movement phase" or "at the end of the movement phase". If we have multiple "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems we are then allowed to sequence them with other "at the end of the movement phase" actions as you have rightly identified in your first paragraph. We are unable to play any "during the movement phase" stratagems as it is no longer "during the movement phase". This is where you have your disconnect however.
At this point I want to quote strategic discipline for you:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline applies. But it also allows us to play stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is NOT considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline does not apply. But it also prevents us from playing any stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
You want "at the end of the movement phase" to be both during and not during the movement phase - during for the purpose of Strategic Discipline, and not during for Strategem use. This is not supported by the rules.
Games Workshop have ruled that you can't play "during the movement phase" stratagems at "the end of the movement phase". Why? I put forwards the reasonable argument that "the end of the movement phase" is not during the movement phase. This in turn means that strategic discipline does not apply and you can play a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem as many times as you would like.
Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves). If you have multiple stratagems that say they are played at the end of the phase then you play them then.
As BCB has indicated, however, the end of a phase is still part of the phase, so you can't play the same stratagem multiple times. They don't let you play "during the phase" stratagems after something that happens at the end of the phase because then you would be trying to play it after the movement phase - after the end of the phase. it's not because the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
Logic alone should point out your fallacy - "end of the phase" still has to be part of the phase, it can't be after the phase because then the end of the phase would come after the end of the phase, and logically it can't come after itself. Yet this is what you are going when you say the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
torblind wrote: Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale Phase.
torblind wrote: Haven't read all referenced material, but, end of turn you calculate your VP winnings for that turn. That's certainly not in the psychic phase, so a stratagem happening end of turn should be between phases then?
The end of your turn is the same as the end of the Morale Phase.
Clearly incorrect .
I agree that sounds weird, surely you'd need to complete all phases before you can do such a thing as scoring tactical objectives? Since that doesn't have its own phase, it must happen at end of turn which then makes it something that is not in a phase.
JakeSiren wrote: Yes. I think you see what I'm saying. As "at the end of the movement phase" is not counted as "during" the phase you don't have the restriction of Strategic Discipline and thus can play the same "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem multiple times in matched play.
No, that is not how it works at all...
The end of the movement phase is still the movement phase.
Yes, correct, but it's not during the movement phase. Or are you suggesting that you can play "during" stratagems at the end of the phase?
You're wilfully ignoring what we have already told you. The FAQ isn't saying the end of the phase is not during the phase, it is saying that you can't use stratagems after things happen at the end of the phase, because if you do then the things that were supposed to happen at the end of the phase did not happen at the end of the phase and thus were illegally done.
No, I'm applying the logical conclusion of the faq.
Your view appears to be that the end of the phase is an instant point in time that you sequence out. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
To play both Stratagem A and Stratagem B at the end of the phase, and to have reinforcements come in you would need to use the sequencing the rules. You could sequence in any combination, but let's say you decide that Strategem A gets resolved first. You then bring in your unit of reinforcements. Then chose to resolve Stratagem B.
According to you the "end of the phase" is also "during the phase". This means that Stratagem B could be a "during the movement phase" Stratagem as it fulfills the activation requirements. The FAQ says that we can't use the "during the movement phase" stratagem on reinforcements. But why? The only logical explanation I can come up with is that in fact the "end of the phase" is not "during" that phase.
If you can come up with a logical and rules consistent alternative I would love to hear it, but saying "it doesn't work that way" without explanation or rules is nothing but hot air.
Your argument about sequencing stratagems at the end of the phase along with anything else that has to happen at the end of the phase was the argument that people had been trying to use in order to use a stratagem on a unit that had just arrived from Reserves, by saying you're using the stratagem at the end of the phase and are sequencing it so that the unit arriving from reserves happens first. GW has shut that down completely with their FAQ answer. Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves).
What you are trying to do is the complete antithesis of what they are saying - you want to sequence infinite stratagems in there when they said "no, you can't do that, you can't play stratagems after something that's supposed to happen at the end of the phase." The inference you need to take from it is that you don't get to use stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem tells you that you can do so.
I think your argument is confused, or you haven't articulated it fully. Your first and second paragraphs seem to be in disagreement as to how you play stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" and what is permitted.
For clarity GW have specifically shutdown playing "during your movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase" on units that have arrived from reserve. Nor was I arguing that we should be able to play any "during" stratagems "at the end".
For a Stratagem to be played you need to meet the criteria for playing it. For our discussions either "during the movement phase" or "at the end of the movement phase". If we have multiple "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems we are then allowed to sequence them with other "at the end of the movement phase" actions as you have rightly identified in your first paragraph. We are unable to play any "during the movement phase" stratagems as it is no longer "during the movement phase". This is where you have your disconnect however.
At this point I want to quote strategic discipline for you:
BRB wrote:The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline applies. But it also allows us to play stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
If we say "at the end of the movement phase" is NOT considered to be during the movement phase then Strategic Discipline does not apply. But it also prevents us from playing any stratagems that occur "during the movement phase".
You want "at the end of the movement phase" to be both during and not during the movement phase - during for the purpose of Strategic Discipline, and not during for Strategem use. This is not supported by the rules.
Games Workshop have ruled that you can't play "during the movement phase" stratagems at "the end of the movement phase". Why? I put forwards the reasonable argument that "the end of the movement phase" is not during the movement phase. This in turn means that strategic discipline does not apply and you can play a "at the end of the movement phase" stratagem as many times as you would like.
Basically they are saying you don't get to sequence stratagems at the end of a phase unless the stratagem states that it happens at the end of the phase or triggers off of something that happens then (like getting to shoot at a unit that just arrived from Reserves). If you have multiple stratagems that say they are played at the end of the phase then you play them then.
As BCB has indicated, however, the end of a phase is still part of the phase, so you can't play the same stratagem multiple times. They don't let you play "during the phase" stratagems after something that happens at the end of the phase because then you would be trying to play it after the movement phase - after the end of the phase. it's not because the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
You are looking at the result of the FAQ, but not the why of the FAQ. This specific FAQ item has not changed any of the rules, rather it provides clarity on how the rules should be played.
We agree on the first point - that the FAQ clarifies that you can't play any "during the movement phase" stratagems "at the end of the movement phase". You can sequence any number of "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems and actions that you can legally play.
That was the result. Now, on to the why. What in the rules would prevent you from playing any during the movement phase stratagems at the end of the movement phase? Keeping in mind that none of the rules have changed, we have only one possibility, that the end of the movement phase is not considered during the movement phase. Otherwise if we considered at the end to be during the phase then we would meet the conditions for playing a "during the movement phase" stratagem.
Logic alone should point out your fallacy - "end of the phase" still has to be part of the phase, it can't be after the phase because then the end of the phase would come after the end of the phase, and logically it can't come after itself. Yet this is what you are going when you say the end of the phase is not part of the phase.
That's not my argument at all. "End of the phase" is still a part of the phase, just not "during" it.
The FAQ just adds a stipulation to stop you using Movement Phase Stratagems on units arriving via special means. No more to it than that. No patterns to be seen. No inferences for elsewhere. Just a specific restriction to close what GW felt was an exploit.
JohnnyHell wrote: The FAQ just adds a stipulation to stop you using Movement Phase Stratagems on units arriving via special means. No more to it than that. No patterns to be seen. No inferences for elsewhere. Just a specific restriction to close what GW felt was an exploit.
What evidence do you have that this is the case? How do you determine which FAQ's fall under rules modification and which don't? Or more specifically, do you apply FAQs to the specific situation they are referring to, or try to understand them in the broader context so that you can apply them to similar situations?
Unless I'm mistaken a FAQ is not a change in rules, it is the rules writers saying "under our assumptions this is the result we get"
Or if you like algebra: rules + assumptions = result
We know the rules, and we know what the result is, what we are missing is what assumptions the rules writers are making. Which then begs the question: what assumptions do we have to make to have the rules function in this way?
If you are able to provide your assumptions supported by evidence then I would like to hear them.
You determine which FAQs fall under rules modifications by looking at which FAQs change rules and which don’t. It’s pretty simple.
GWFAQs include changes and Errata. Nature of the beast. FAQs should just clarify but GW ones change things too. That’s the way it is.
I feel you’re over-extrapolating on your post and trying to find justifications and patterns not needed. The FAQ tells you how to handle things - that’s now how we do them. I don’t need to prove any of that, as the FAQ docs are the evidence.
Given the above is all way off topic from the OP, I still believe that “at the end of the turn” is not in a phase. Tiny attempt to steer back N track. Let’s see how successful it is!
JakeSiren wrote: Unless I'm mistaken a FAQ is not a change in rules, it is the rules writers saying "under our assumptions this is the result we get"
Sadly a lot of FAQs are changes to the rules, because they directly contradict the rules.
These Special Snowflake FAQs are basically just a bad way of doing errata, even I, the Crown Prince of RaW, accept it as such. :EmoticonToIndicateTongueInCheekHumour:
JohnnyHell wrote: You determine which FAQs fall under rules modifications by looking at which FAQs change rules and which don’t. It’s pretty simple.
GWFAQs include changes and Errata. Nature of the beast. FAQs should just clarify but GW ones change things too. That’s the way it is.
I feel you’re over-extrapolating on your post and trying to find justifications and patterns not needed. The FAQ tells you how to handle things - that’s now how we do them. I don’t need to prove any of that, as the FAQ docs are the evidence.
Given the above is all way off topic from the OP, I still believe that “at the end of the turn” is not in a phase. Tiny attempt to steer back N track. Let’s see how successful it is!
What should be the default position? Should we assume all FAQ's change rules, or that only in situations where they are inconsolable with the rules? If we can find a straight forward change in assumptions that don't change the rules, but means our understanding is consistent with the FAQ then shouldn't we change our preconceived notions?
JakeSiren, no. You should read the FAQs and apply them as they come. Don’t assume anything, don’t try and join dots that don’t need joining. Tbh I’m not even sure what you’re asking any more. Just accept that FAQs from GW include rules changes as well as clarifications, and approach them as individual rulings.
JohnnyHell wrote: JakeSiren, no. You should read the FAQs and apply them as they come. Don’t assume anything, don’t try and join dots that don’t need joining. Tbh I’m not even sure what you’re asking any more. Just accept that FAQs from GW include rules changes as well as clarifications, and approach them as individual rulings.
Come on. It is entirely reasonable to look at a FAQ answer and ask "Why is it this way? What assumptions does this affect? How does it affect other areas of the game?" But for some reason you don't want these questions asked about this FAQ item.
What I'm asking is, when asking these questions about this particular FAQ item about Strategem timing, is there an answer other than "because it's not considered during the movement phase, even though it is still a part of the movement phase" - an answer entirely consistent within the rules and FAQ clarifications which only changes assumptions we have made about how the rules should play.
That was the result. Now, on to the why. What in the rules would prevent you from playing any during the movement phase stratagems at the end of the movement phase? Keeping in mind that none of the rules have changed, we have only one possibility, that the end of the movement phase is not considered during the movement phase. Otherwise if we considered at the end to be during the phase then we would meet the conditions for playing a "during the movement phase" stratagem.
They amend rules all the time using the FAQs and don't limit it only to errata - that's where your thinking falls apart on this. They did not want sequencing shenanigans occurring with units that are coming in from Reserves and other things that are being claimed to be done at the end of the phase. They meant for those to show up last, as "at the end of the movement phase" indicates, and if you have stratagems being cast on them after they arrive that means they did not arrive at the end. The stratagems say during the phase, but do not say that you are allowed to declare they go off at the end of the phase. That's all you can read into it.
JohnnyHell wrote: JakeSiren, no. You should read the FAQs and apply them as they come. Don’t assume anything, don’t try and join dots that don’t need joining. Tbh I’m not even sure what you’re asking any more. Just accept that FAQs from GW include rules changes as well as clarifications, and approach them as individual rulings.
Come on. It is entirely reasonable to look at a FAQ answer and ask "Why is it this way? What assumptions does this affect? How does it affect other areas of the game?" But for some reason you don't want these questions asked about this FAQ item.
Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to ask "why is it this way?" You have to understand, however, that doing so is trying to divine their intention. Despite BCB's claims, RAI does not always = RAW. For what we are dealing with here we first need to look at the RAW. For most games that should be enough (unless there are some blatant problems with the RAW and there are obvious RAI indications that it shouldn't be played that way). Then, you can try to figure out the RAI. Given that the FAQ is changing the rules, it's a fair bet that the RAI is "they meant for it to work this way instead of how they originally had it", or "we missed some consequences of how it worked earlier, so we changed this to being it more in line with how we want the rule to work."
JohnnyHell wrote: JakeSiren, no. You should read the FAQs and apply them as they come. Don’t assume anything, don’t try and join dots that don’t need joining. Tbh I’m not even sure what you’re asking any more. Just accept that FAQs from GW include rules changes as well as clarifications, and approach them as individual rulings.
Come on. It is entirely reasonable to look at a FAQ answer and ask "Why is it this way? What assumptions does this affect? How does it affect other areas of the game?" But for some reason you don't want these questions asked about this FAQ item.
What I'm asking is, when asking these questions about this particular FAQ item about Strategem timing, is there an answer other than "because it's not considered during the movement phase, even though it is still a part of the movement phase" - an answer entirely consistent within the rules and FAQ clarifications which only changes assumptions we have made about how the rules should play.
Or you could just accept it as a specific limitation that in no way changes what Phase it is, just permissions at that moment in time. That’s how it’s written, and the “why” is to limit DS+Stratagem abusive combos.
JohnnyHell wrote: JakeSiren, no. You should read the FAQs and apply them as they come. Don’t assume anything, don’t try and join dots that don’t need joining. Tbh I’m not even sure what you’re asking any more. Just accept that FAQs from GW include rules changes as well as clarifications, and approach them as individual rulings.
Come on. It is entirely reasonable to look at a FAQ answer and ask "Why is it this way? What assumptions does this affect? How does it affect other areas of the game?" But for some reason you don't want these questions asked about this FAQ item.
What I'm asking is, when asking these questions about this particular FAQ item about Strategem timing, is there an answer other than "because it's not considered during the movement phase, even though it is still a part of the movement phase" - an answer entirely consistent within the rules and FAQ clarifications which only changes assumptions we have made about how the rules should play.
Or you could just accept it as a specific limitation that in no way changes what Phase it is, just permissions at that moment in time. That’s how it’s written, and the “why” is to limit DS+Stratagem abusive combos.
Where did I say that it "changes what Phase it is"? Please don't put words into my mouth.
What within the rules controls the permissions of what Stratagems can be played? What restrictions and permissions apply at that point in time?
You keep putting out the argument that items in the "FAQ" section change rules, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is correct in *some* situations, but you haven't demonstrated that this is the case in this situation.
JakeSiren wrote: That was the result. Now, on to the why. What in the rules would prevent you from playing any during the movement phase stratagems at the end of the movement phase? Keeping in mind that none of the rules have changed, we have only one possibility, that the end of the movement phase is not considered during the movement phase. Otherwise if we considered at the end to be during the phase then we would meet the conditions for playing a "during the movement phase" stratagem.
They amend rules all the time using the FAQs and don't limit it only to errata - that's where your thinking falls apart on this. They did not want sequencing shenanigans occurring with units that are coming in from Reserves and other things that are being claimed to be done at the end of the phase. They meant for those to show up last, as "at the end of the movement phase" indicates, and if you have stratagems being cast on them after they arrive that means they did not arrive at the end. The stratagems say during the phase, but do not say that you are allowed to declare they go off at the end of the phase. That's all you can read into it.
JohnnyHell wrote: JakeSiren, no. You should read the FAQs and apply them as they come. Don’t assume anything, don’t try and join dots that don’t need joining. Tbh I’m not even sure what you’re asking any more. Just accept that FAQs from GW include rules changes as well as clarifications, and approach them as individual rulings.
Come on. It is entirely reasonable to look at a FAQ answer and ask "Why is it this way? What assumptions does this affect? How does it affect other areas of the game?" But for some reason you don't want these questions asked about this FAQ item.
Yes, it's perfectly reasonable to ask "why is it this way?" You have to understand, however, that doing so is trying to divine their intention. Despite BCB's claims, RAI does not always = RAW. For what we are dealing with here we first need to look at the RAW. For most games that should be enough (unless there are some blatant problems with the RAW and there are obvious RAI indications that it shouldn't be played that way). Then, you can try to figure out the RAI. Given that the FAQ is changing the rules, it's a fair bet that the RAI is "they meant for it to work this way instead of how they originally had it", or "we missed some consequences of how it worked earlier, so we changed this to being it more in line with how we want the rule to work."
The FAQ's are divided into Errata and FAQ's. One is specifically for rules changes, the other is for rules clarifications. The rules clarifications helps us identify the rule writers intentions.
How did you "divine their intention" that this particular FAQ item is a change in rules when it is in the Frequently Asked Questions section?
Also, to apply the reasoning both you and Johnny have expressed, I take it you are both more then happy for me to apply "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems on a unit from reserves using sequencing since all "at the end of the movement phase" actions occur simultaneously? The FAQ only specifies that "during the movement phase" stratagems are not allowed.
Jake, even BCB is willing to admit that they make rules changes in the FAQ that aren't limited to the Errata section. You have to learn to accept that. The "rules clarifications" are often actual rules changes.
How did I divine their intention? They made changes to stop using stratagems that apply "during the movement phase" to being able to be used at the end of the phase on reinforcements. We've had a few threads about people wanting to buff reinforcements with stratagems the same phase they arrive, so it's a good bet that they are trying to stop the sequencing shenanigans of people effectively using "during the phase" stratagems after you have done stuff at the end of the phase.
Also, to apply the reasoning both you and Johnny have expressed, I take it you are both more then happy for me to apply "at the end of the movement phase" stratagems on a unit from reserves using sequencing since all "at the end of the movement phase" actions occur simultaneously? The FAQ only specifies that "during the movement phase" stratagems are not allowed.
If the stratagem says that it's used at the end of the movement phase, then I have no problem with it and I don't see GW having a problem with it either - they would have been the ones writing the stratagem so that it says it is used at the end of the movement phase.
Jake, the FAQ section contains rules changes as well as Errata. You can surely see that if you read the FAQ documents? There’s only even called The Big FAQ that is largely changes. If you can’t agree that’s the case I’m not sure there’s any point discussing, as that’s but how it is.
And of course you can use a “play at the end of the Movement Phase” Stratagem at the end of that phase. Nothing against that and why would I disagree with that?
Alright. I accept that there are rules changes in the FAQ.
I would like to quantify one thing from this discussion if nothing else. What process / factors do you use to determine if a particular FAQ item is specifically a rules change?
JakeSiren wrote: Alright. I accept that there are rules changes in the FAQ.
I would like to quantify one thing from this discussion if nothing else. What process / factors do you use to determine if a particular FAQ item is specifically a rules change?
Does it contradict the rules? If so it's Special Snowflake. Examples include the Wu-Tang-Klan denial and the prevention of Index Pask ordering himself.
doctortom wrote:You read what they've done in the FAQ and look at what there was previously. If it's different, it's a rules change. Honestly, that is how you tell.
JakeSiren wrote:Alright. I accept that there are rules changes in the FAQ.
I would like to quantify one thing from this discussion if nothing else. What process / factors do you use to determine if a particular FAQ item is specifically a rules change?
doctortom wrote: You read what they've done in the FAQ and look at what there was previously. If it's different, it's a rules change. Honestly, that is how you tell.
So if we look at the Razorback FAQ that would be an example of a rules change?
Q: Is a Razorback firing a twin plasma gun destroyed if you roll a 1 to hit?
A: Yes.
I take it that it would be unreasonable to apply this ruling to any other model with a twin plasma gun? Am I understanding correctly?
doctortom wrote: You read what they've done in the FAQ and look at what there was previously. If it's different, it's a rules change. Honestly, that is how you tell.
So if we look at the Razorback FAQ that would be an example of a rules change?
Q: Is a Razorback firing a twin plasma gun destroyed if you roll a 1 to hit?
A: Yes.
I take it that it would be unreasonable to apply this ruling to any other model with a twin plasma gun? Am I understanding correctly?
So if beginning, during and end of a phase is three distictive phases, does this mean I can potentially use command reroll 15 times in one turn?
0. at the beginning of turn
1. beginning of movement phase
2. during movement phase
3. end of movement phase
4. beginning of psychic phase
5. during psychic phase
6. end of psychic phase
7. beginning of charge phase
8. during charge phase
9. end of charge phase
10. beginning of fight phase
11. during fight phase
12. end of fight phase
13. morale phase
14. at the end of turn
That doesnt seem right...
skchsan wrote: So if beginning, during and end of a phase is three distictive phases, does this mean I can potentially use command reroll 15 times in one turn?
0. at the beginning of turn
1. beginning of movement phase
2. during movement phase
3. end of movement phase
4. beginning of psychic phase
5. during psychic phase
6. end of psychic phase
7. beginning of charge phase
8. during charge phase
9. end of charge phase
10. beginning of fight phase
11. during fight phase
12. end of fight phase
13. morale phase
14. at the end of turn
That doesnt seem right...
I would quite disagree that the beginning and end of a phase are not part of a phase.
skchsan wrote: So if beginning, during and end of a phase is three distictive phases, does this mean I can potentially use command reroll 15 times in one turn?
0. at the beginning of turn
1. beginning of movement phase
2. during movement phase
3. end of movement phase
4. beginning of psychic phase
5. during psychic phase
6. end of psychic phase
7. beginning of charge phase
8. during charge phase
9. end of charge phase
10. beginning of fight phase
11. during fight phase
12. end of fight phase
13. morale phase
14. at the end of turn
That doesnt seem right...
I would quite disagree that the beginning and end of a phase are not part of a phase.
As in you'd disagree they are distinct phase of its own?
skchsan wrote: So if beginning, during and end of a phase is three distictive phases, does this mean I can potentially use command reroll 15 times in one turn?
0. at the beginning of turn
1. beginning of movement phase
2. during movement phase
3. end of movement phase
4. beginning of psychic phase
5. during psychic phase
6. end of psychic phase
7. beginning of charge phase
8. during charge phase
9. end of charge phase
10. beginning of fight phase
11. during fight phase
12. end of fight phase
13. morale phase
14. at the end of turn
That doesnt seem right...
I would quite disagree that the beginning and end of a phase are not part of a phase.
As in you'd disagree they are distinct phase of its own?
skchsan wrote: So if beginning, during and end of a phase is three distictive phases, does this mean I can potentially use command reroll 15 times in one turn?
0. at the beginning of turn
1. beginning of movement phase
2. during movement phase
3. end of movement phase
4. beginning of psychic phase
5. during psychic phase
6. end of psychic phase
7. beginning of charge phase
8. during charge phase
9. end of charge phase
10. beginning of fight phase
11. during fight phase
12. end of fight phase
13. morale phase
14. at the end of turn
That doesnt seem right...
I would quite disagree that the beginning and end of a phase are not part of a phase.
As in you'd disagree they are distinct phase of its own?
Beginnings and endings still count as part of their phases, there's just some limitation on things at the beginnings and endings - things that have to be done at those times and things that can't. You don't treat the beginning of the movement phase and the end of the movement phase as separate from during the movement phase for purposes of determining how many times you can use a stratagem in something related to the movement phase.
skchsan wrote: So if beginning, during and end of a phase is three distictive phases, does this mean I can potentially use command reroll 15 times in one turn?
0. at the beginning of turn
1. beginning of movement phase
2. during movement phase
3. end of movement phase
4. beginning of psychic phase
5. during psychic phase
6. end of psychic phase
7. beginning of charge phase
8. during charge phase
9. end of charge phase
10. beginning of fight phase
11. during fight phase
12. end of fight phase
13. morale phase
14. at the end of turn
That doesnt seem right...
The rulebook specifies that there are 6 phases, so that's clearly not correct - it even numbers them 1-6.
Reasonably; any 'at the start of the phase' action(s) can be carried out before carrying out any 'ordinary' phase action.
An 'at the end of the phase' action, once carried out, prevents you then carrying out any 'ordinary' action from that phase, but does not prevent any other 'at the end of the phase' action from occurring.
(Ordinary actions being those things specifically listed in the rulebook that occur in a phase, plus any actions that are listed as 'during the phase')
Anything that happens 'before the start of the turn' would have to happen before anything that happens 'at the start of the movement phase'; likewise anything that happens 'at the end of the turn' would have to happen after anything that happens 'at the end of the morale phase' (if there is anything that does that).
What about stuff that happens "at the start of the turn"? Is that in the Movement Phase? Would re-rolling a Close Combat Attack during Acts of Faith prevent me from re-rolling an Advance distance role in the same turn?
Unit1126PLL wrote: What about stuff that happens "at the start of the turn"? Is that in the Movement Phase? Would re-rolling a Close Combat Attack during Acts of Faith prevent me from re-rolling an Advance distance role in the same turn?
Start of the turn is pretty much the same as the start of the movement phase, except you have to use Start of the turn stuff before you you start of the movement phase stuff.
OP it looks like you forgot the shooting phase, but the list should look something like this:
1 Beginning of turn, beginning of Movement phase, during Movement phase, end of Movement phase.
2. Beginning of Psychic phase, during Psychic phase, end of Psychic phase.
3. Beginning of Shooting phase, during Shooting phase, end of Shooting phase.
4. Beginning of charge phase, during charge phase, end of charge phase.
5. beginning of fight phase, during fight phase, end of fight phase,
6. beginning of morale phase, during morale phase, end of morale phase, end of turn.
Unit1126PLL wrote: What about stuff that happens "at the start of the turn"? Is that in the Movement Phase? Would re-rolling a Close Combat Attack during Acts of Faith prevent me from re-rolling an Advance distance role in the same turn?
Start of the turn is pretty much the same as the start of the movement phase, except you have to use Start of the turn stuff before you you start of the movement phase stuff.
OP it looks like you forgot the shooting phase, but the list should look something like this:
1 Beginning of turn, beginning of Movement phase, during Movement phase, end of Movement phase.
2. Beginning of Psychic phase, during Psychic phase, end of Psychic phase.
3. Beginning of Shooting phase, during Shooting phase, end of Shooting phase.
4. Beginning of charge phase, during charge phase, end of charge phase.
5. beginning of fight phase, during fight phase, end of fight phase,
6. beginning of morale phase, during morale phase, end of morale phase, end of turn.
Pretty much? So its a no then?
If you have to do one before the other, then they're not done on the same time, and then arguably "start of turn" isn't in the beginning of the movement phase.
Except if there is now also special stuff that happens in the beginning of the movement phase only it happens before all the stuff that usually happens in the beginning of the movement phase.
If you have to do one before the other, then they're not done on the same time, and then arguably "start of turn" isn't in the beginning of the movement phase.
Except if there is now also special stuff that happens in the beginning of the movement phase only it happens before all the stuff that usually happens in the beginning of the movement phase.
There is no start of turn phase...
The start of the turn is not a separate thing, (Unless you have a rules citation that states otherwise) it just happens when you start your turn, and the first thing you do when you start your turn is the movement phase.
But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.
Captyn_Bob wrote: But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.
A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.
Captyn_Bob wrote: But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.
A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.
Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.
Captyn_Bob wrote: But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.
A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.
Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.
It's not an applicable instruction. Your logic is like taking the rule that a 1 always misses and saying "therefore a 6 must always hit."
Captyn_Bob wrote: But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.
A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.
Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.
It's not an applicable instruction. Your logic is like taking the rule that a 1 always misses and saying "therefore a 6 must always hit."
If you have to do one before the other, then they're not done on the same time, and then arguably "start of turn" isn't in the beginning of the movement phase.
Except if there is now also special stuff that happens in the beginning of the movement phase only it happens before all the stuff that usually happens in the beginning of the movement phase.
There is no start of turn phase...
The start of the turn is not a separate thing, (Unless you have a rules citation that states otherwise) it just happens when you start your turn, and the first thing you do when you start your turn is the movement phase.
Right so things that happen in beginning of movement phase and things that happen in start of turn, I can mix match the order in which I do those? Of course I can't.
Stratagems at the start of your turn are not in a Phase.
Stratagems at the end of your turn are not in a Phase.
Stratagems at the end of the Movement Phase are in a Phase but have some new FAQ restrictions.
torblind wrote: Right so things that happen in beginning of movement phase and things that happen in start of turn, I can mix match the order in which I do those? Of course I can't.
Of course not. The start of the turn strats happen, then start of the movement phase strats happen. If you try to use start of the movement phase strats then try to use start of the turn strats you cant as it is no longer the start of the turn as you have used a strat that happens in the movement phase...
Captyn_Bob wrote: But of course, we have had it confirmed in the rules themselves that end of battle round is an example of a non phase specific time that stratagems can be used multiple times. And of course there is no end of battle round phase . So maybe we can use more sensible definitions, like if it isn't called a phase then it's not a phase. Rather than saying something is a phase, despite no guidance to do so.
A single specific instruction is not a blanket instruction.
Ignoring the only guidance we have seems counter intuitive to problem solving.
There is also the argument that "Each turn consists of a series of phases" without a mention of before or after could also be guidance.
But, that end of turn bit is a precedent that can be used for other end of turn things, and for start of turn before the movement phase starts. GW really should formally point out that stratagems can be used there out of turn.
Just as a note, I don't see you getting to claim you can use a stratagem between phasses an infinite number of times - one phase goes to the other until you hit the end of the turn. GW has treated start and end of turns as something different historically.
torblind wrote: Right so things that happen in beginning of movement phase and things that happen in start of turn, I can mix match the order in which I do those? Of course I can't.
Of course not. The start of the turn strats happen, then start of the movement phase strats happen. Iif you try to use start of the movement phase strats then try to use start of the turn strats you cant as it is no longer the start of the turn as you have used a strat that happens in the movement phase...
I'm simply making the case that start of the turn isnt in the movement phase, it isn't in any phase, and as such the once-per-phase limitation for stratagems is not in effect.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?
It would have to have a unique rule specifically instructing you to act in a way that contradicts the rules.
what about the start of the battle round?
Start of the battle round is the start of the movement phase for the first player. Unless you can point to a definition of start of the battle round that specifically says it happens outside of the movement phase in a general sense. And in that eventuality it would only be in the context of the ability / stratagem/etc that it would be referencing.
Unit1126PLL wrote: How then is it possible for a stratagem to be used during the game but outside a phase?
It would have to have a unique rule specifically instructing you to act in a way that contradicts the rules.
what about the start of the battle round?
Start of the battle round is the start of the movement phase for the first player. Unless you can point to a definition of start of the battle round that specifically says it happens outside of the movement phase in a general sense. And in that eventuality it would only be in the context of the ability / stratagem/etc that it would be referencing.
BRB wrote: The same Strategem cannot be used by the same player more than once during any single phase. This does not affect Stratagems that are not used during a phase, such as those used 'before the battle begins' or 'at the end of a battle round'
"Before the battle begins" is before anyone has a turn. Start of the battle round is fundamentally different.
The end of a battle round is a bit nebulous. This is referencing unique rules that are intended to be played outside of phase - in this case, something that says it is played at the end of a battle round is given special treatment.
These are given as examples though, not as a complete list or specific exception. I don't see a good reason to think that what of a battle round and end should be treated differently.
Marmatag wrote: You cannot start your turn without entering the movement phase. It is not possible.
You are wrong. Necrons use their MWBD at the start of your turn, not at the start of the movement phase. They regain a lost wound from living metal at the start of your turn, not at the start of the movement phase. They roll for RP at the start of your turn, not at the start of the movement phase. This proves that there is a point of time in the game outside of a phase.
The movement phase starts when you pick a unit and move the models. This is written in the core rules :
Start your Movement phase by picking
one of your units and moving each model
in that unit until you’ve moved all the
models you want to.
Once the game starts you are always in one of the phases numbered 1-6. The rules specifically say that a turn is constructed with phases.
No. There are moments in the game where you are outside of a phase. The BRB gives two explicit examples on pg. 215. strategic discipline.
BRB update 1.3 confirms that deployment is outside of a phase :
Q: Is the Deployment step of a mission considered to be a ‘phase’
for the purposes of rules?
A: No.
Once again this proves that there are points of time in the game where you are not always in one of the phases 1-6.
And the game starts with deployment. BRB update 1.3 :
Q: Certain abilities and Stratagems are used ‘before the battle’.
When specifically is this?
A: The game begins when players start the Deployment
step of a mission – all abilities and Stratagems that are
used ‘before the battle’ must be used before then.
At first I was like; “this question is dumb, of course you can’t use the stratagem multiple times.”
After reading the thread now I’m like; “hmm, RAW doesn’t seem very clear anymore.”
I think the intent is that the stratagem interacts in the same way as every other one that has a similar ability in that it can only be used once but I get the argument either way.
Personally I’m edging toward the case that ‘the start of your round is also a phase’ but it’s only very slightly.
An Actual Englishman wrote: At first I was like; “this question is dumb, of course you can’t use the stratagem multiple times.”
After reading the thread now I’m like; “hmm, RAW doesn’t seem very clear anymore.”
I think the intent is that the stratagem interacts in the same way as every other one that has a similar ability in that it can only be used once but I get the argument either way.
Personally I’m edging toward the case that ‘the start of your round is also a phase’ but it’s only very slightly.
Well the BRB is quite clear about there being 5 phases and 5 only.
Either case, 4CP to play ut twice is quite costly, would it be worth it?
The start of your turn is the start of your movement phase, there isn't a bit "before" the movement phase.
