Last week I played against a friend. He Durkharis, me Space Marines. We played 1000 points, without objectives ( only point for unit killet, first blood and linebreaker).
He played more or less with this: 2 raiders, one venom, 3 kabalist squads, 1 witches squad, one incubi squad, one mandrakes squad, 3 reavers, a sucubus and an archon. Some blasters and other heavy weapons. Lots of units for only 1K points. I had the feeling being outnumbered, a lot. His troops hits likes the marines, more powerfull in close combat and hits also some mortal wounds. Yes, one point less Toughtness but.... they don´t seem as weak as they should be.
I played: Primaris Captain, Primaris Lieutenant, Venerable Dread, tactical squad with missile launcher, tactical squad with flammer, scout squad with one heavy bolter, 6 primaris marines and 5 terminator with one assault cannon,
From the begining I had the feeling being totally outnumbered. I had no clear how to move or what I should attack first. He was very agressive, lots of shots and in close combat no chance for me. Next time we will play with objectives but I think having less troops I will have to play in defense. For example, the blaster cost 17 points to 25 an lass cannon only loosing in range but...hey...he is drukhari, fast and can moove where he wants. Special rules, combat drugs, mortal wounds, invulnerable saves, venom weapons, lots of troops... all in 1K list. I have the feeling SM are weak.
Drukhari were OP (in this case too cheap) as hell from the early Codex impressions. Their troops are all undercosted in terms of damage (Wyches and Kabalites) or durability (Prophets of Flesh Wracks/Grotesques) and all of their vehicles are glass cannons that pay half the cost of the equivalent space marine vehicles to do the same damage
You are going to be outnumbered in this match-up, there's no way around it.
However, what I'd suggest is grouping up in cover. A Dark Eldar army is frequently going to want to pick off your units one at a time to avoid return fire; clumping everything together prevents that. A 2+ save from being Marines in cover also renders their splinter fire relatively ineffective (with the caveat that if your opponent is running the Flayed Skull Kabal then they'll avoid cover bonuses entirely).
The biggest strength they have over you is their mobility, so in terms of target priority I'd typically recommend taking out Raiders and Venoms first if possible, then the Reavers. Avoid shooting Kabalites if there's anything else in range.
They're not unbeatable, but honestly I feel like the Codex has left a lot of Dark Eldar units undercosted.
Undercosted, absolutely, but you need basically long ranged firepower, and melee screens to win.
Long ranged firepower so he can't sit outside your range and plink at you, and about anything in the game can take down their vehicles. Remove their mobility first, and they become a lot less scary. Melee screens to mulch infantry once the transports get popped, or deep strikers to engage them once the transports are down.
Remember that against DE, weight of fire is superior to quality fire. Predator Autocannons are excellent. Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters. Inceptors with assault bolters would be excellent for that purpose.
Alex_85 wrote: have no Stalker or Stormravens. Maybe I have luck and this time with more heavy weapons...but only 1000 points there is no much I can put.
Yea don't stress it too much. I think you can still do ok. Just get a buffer between the raiders/venom and your tank/dread (deploy tank sideways if you have to). Don't let him get easy shots on them with blasters.
Your dev squad is pretty vulnerable with no ablative wounds.
Those sniper rifles also may not be in enough quantity to have enough of an effect.
Two captains might be overkill. Use the dreadnought for "Wisdom" if you need more reroll coverage at crucial times and free up points.
DE is a very powerful codex. That being said every single unit outside of the covens is paper thin. Wychs are decently durable in CC but get shot to gak outside of CC. The transports can be taken down by your bolters and get shredded by your heavy weapons. They lack AP on most of their units (outside of dark lances and blasters) so you should be getting tons of armor saves. Poison sucks but you are not running any high toughness monsters (demon princes ect) so that wont hurt as much. Remember they will have a very high volume of fire due to being so cheap so get into cover when possible.
I fought DE with my Thousand Sons last week and it was a total massacre. Poison kills my army dead. Has been the only time that tzaangors have been a liability and I wished I had more rubrics. Was a blood bath. Now I'm sure I could tailor a list to win but I don't list tailor so its just a uphill battle and probably my very worst matchup.
Also, marines, terminators and primaris are all overcosted.
Xenomancers wrote: space marines just lose to DE on a fundamental level. Just spam stormravens and wipe the DE of the board in 3 turns. Only chance.
It's this kind of advice that breeds pointlessly fatalistic attitudes. Dude is playing a 2-patrol DE list with just a bunch of standard units with some relatively subpar stuff like Incubi. Telling someone "oh, just give up, you stand no chance" in this obviously relatively casual matchup is just ridiculous.
OP, my advice to you is going to include some list advice (because you have a few less than amazing choices in your list) and some tactics advice.
List:
-You have three sniper rifles and two boltguns in your scout squad, that's a little strange. Generally speaking, if your unit has a choice of one basic gun or another, it's almost always best to run them with all one option, rather than a mix. If your guys want to sit back and snipe, the bolters do nothing. If you get within 12" for the bolters, the sniper rifles are at -1 to hit because you're moving. I usually see scouts used for their ability to stand in front of your other marine units and block chargers, so shotguns, bolters, or close combat is usually the name of the game. If you really like the snipers, don't rip your models apart (in fact, disregard pretty much any advice to do that - the power level of every weapon in the game and every army changes, if you own only the best stuff, odds are good you'll end up owning only the worst stuff after it gets lowered in power by GW)
-Youve got a devastator squad with 3HBs and 1 plasma, and a Missile in your tacticals. Swap that puppy around, and run the devs 3 HBs and 1 missile. The stratagem "Flakk Missile" is highly valuable against Dark Eldar, since all their tanks have Fly, and the Cherub lets you reroll if you miss the shot.
-You definitely want a lieutenant and captain instead of 2 captains. gotta get both buffs going!
-Your razorback: if you have the parts from the kit to let you run that with twin heavy bolter, I would do that against Dark Eldar. Lascannons are VERY ineffective against DE, because of how wounding works in 8th edition. DE vehicle are T5, which means strength 9 is exactly the same as strength 6 against them, and they have a 5+ invulnerable save, which can block those huge lascannon shots. Twin heavy bolters do almost as much damage to their tanks as twin lascannons do, and they cost less than half as much. I'm assuming you don't have the parts for twin assault cannons, thugh those are the best guns hads down here, but sadly they dont come in the kit.
-Heavy weapons in tactical squads are not my favorite thing to see. If those are the only models you have, fine, but tactical squads work much better mostly focusing on special weapons, which they can shoot while they move to try and get into boltgun range. A plasma gun or flamer would probably do you much better in this situation than lascannons and missile launchers.
-If you were looking for something new to buy, as a previous poster said, Stalkers are amazing agianst all types of Eldar, Tau, and Necrons with their bonus to hit Flying things. But only if this was an opponent you would be playing aginst frequently would I advise buying something new.
-Dark Eldar have no defense against Psychic Powers at all. Swapping a Captain to a Librarian at this low of a points value would probably be a good move, and you could i n theory just use the same model to do so.
Now, as to tactics:
-Dark Eldar Raiders are going to be your first big targets to shoot down. Once they die, the major difference between kabalite warriors and space marines - 5+ armor and T3 instead of 3+ armor and T4 - starts to actually matter. If any of them have Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances, those are the targets to hit, 100%, they are anti-marine weapons that are very scary against primaris in particular.
-If he is (i assume) loaded up on blasters, and also has a number of Shredders, Splinter Cannons, and Splinter Rifles in his army, you want to make sure that everything in your army starts over 8" away from your deployment zone edge. You know with the low range of his weaponry, he will come to you, and your weaponry that has less than 24" range you care about much less than his. His vehicles move 14", plus an 18" range on his blasters and rapid-fire on his Splinter cannons means that his most important weapons have 32" threat. 24" is the no-mans land in normal deployment, and your most important weapons (heavy bolters, autocannons, primaris marine rifles, etc) all have 36" range. So on dawn of war deployment, start within 4" of the board edge. On hammer and anvil, within 16" of the board edge. Assume you will lose first turn, and you will find that you lose games because of it far less. Assuming that those squads are all 5-man with a special weapon in each, that means the difference between taking 40 poison shots and 6 dark lance shots turn 1, and taking 20 poison shots and 3 dark lance shots. That's the difference between 2 dead marines and chronus or the vendread at half HP, or 4 dead marines and one of those vital vehicles dead. On the flip side, assuming you get turn 1, it means you don't get to fire your regular boltguns at his tanks, but you do get to fire your flakk missile, your Hellfire shell (both of which will be hitting on 2s rerolling 1s thanks to the Signum on your devastators), 6 regular heavy bolters, 5 primaris bolt rifles, your sniper rifles, and your four autocannon shots at him, which is enough to knock down both Raiders with average rolls. the boltguns would barely make any difference.
-Anything that gets cracked out of a transport should be shot down with anti-infantry weaponry. tactical squads sitting in cover trading fire with kabalite warriors or wyches will win, and units like wyches are far easier to deal with before they crash your lines and start murdering you.
-The only units you really ahve to worry about in close combat are the wyches, the HQs, and the incubi. most of them (possible exception of the Archon before his shield gets blown) can be bounced by your own characters or dreadnought, and the succubus or the wyches could be punched by the primaris marines if you got the charge - if he gives you the chance, dont hesitate to charge because you're worried about the swing back. Primaris marines charging incubi kill 2 on the charge, or half-health the succubus/kill half the wyches. close combat is not totally hopeless for you. Thats not even thinking about the Reaver bikes or Kabalites, who you can easily take if given the chance.
Overall my advice is: dont get discouraged. Getting good at your army when your codex is among the worse ones in the game means when you do inevitably get buffed and your army goes up in power, you will be that much better at using your tools. Dont feel that changing your list is the only thing you can do to make a difference in your games - I promise it will only frustrate you more when it doesn't work.
Xenomancers wrote: space marines just lose to DE on a fundamental level. Just spam stormravens and wipe the DE of the board in 3 turns. Only chance.
It's this kind of advice that breeds pointlessly fatalistic attitudes. Dude is playing a 2-patrol DE list with just a bunch of standard units with some relatively subpar stuff like Incubi. Telling someone "oh, just give up, you stand no chance" in this obviously relatively casual matchup is just ridiculous.
OP, my advice to you is going to include some list advice (because you have a few less than amazing choices in your list) and some tactics advice.
List:
-You have three sniper rifles and two boltguns in your scout squad, that's a little strange. Generally speaking, if your unit has a choice of one basic gun or another, it's almost always best to run them with all one option, rather than a mix. If your guys want to sit back and snipe, the bolters do nothing. If you get within 12" for the bolters, the sniper rifles are at -1 to hit because you're moving. I usually see scouts used for their ability to stand in front of your other marine units and block chargers, so shotguns, bolters, or close combat is usually the name of the game. If you really like the snipers, don't rip your models apart (in fact, disregard pretty much any advice to do that - the power level of every weapon in the game and every army changes, if you own only the best stuff, odds are good you'll end up owning only the worst stuff after it gets lowered in power by GW)
-Youve got a devastator squad with 3HBs and 1 plasma, and a Missile in your tacticals. Swap that puppy around, and run the devs 3 HBs and 1 missile. The stratagem "Flakk Missile" is highly valuable against Dark Eldar, since all their tanks have Fly, and the Cherub lets you reroll if you miss the shot.
-You definitely want a lieutenant and captain instead of 2 captains. gotta get both buffs going!
-Your razorback: if you have the parts from the kit to let you run that with twin heavy bolter, I would do that against Dark Eldar. Lascannons are VERY ineffective against DE, because of how wounding works in 8th edition. DE vehicle are T5, which means strength 9 is exactly the same as strength 6 against them, and they have a 5+ invulnerable save, which can block those huge lascannon shots. Twin heavy bolters do almost as much damage to their tanks as twin lascannons do, and they cost less than half as much. I'm assuming you don't have the parts for twin assault cannons, thugh those are the best guns hads down here, but sadly they dont come in the kit.
-Heavy weapons in tactical squads are not my favorite thing to see. If those are the only models you have, fine, but tactical squads work much better mostly focusing on special weapons, which they can shoot while they move to try and get into boltgun range. A plasma gun or flamer would probably do you much better in this situation than lascannons and missile launchers.
-If you were looking for something new to buy, as a previous poster said, Stalkers are amazing agianst all types of Eldar, Tau, and Necrons with their bonus to hit Flying things. But only if this was an opponent you would be playing aginst frequently would I advise buying something new.
-Dark Eldar have no defense against Psychic Powers at all. Swapping a Captain to a Librarian at this low of a points value would probably be a good move, and you could i n theory just use the same model to do so.
Now, as to tactics:
-Dark Eldar Raiders are going to be your first big targets to shoot down. Once they die, the major difference between kabalite warriors and space marines - 5+ armor and T3 instead of 3+ armor and T4 - starts to actually matter. If any of them have Disintegrators instead of Dark Lances, those are the targets to hit, 100%, they are anti-marine weapons that are very scary against primaris in particular.
-If he is (i assume) loaded up on blasters, and also has a number of Shredders, Splinter Cannons, and Splinter Rifles in his army, you want to make sure that everything in your army starts over 8" away from your deployment zone edge. You know with the low range of his weaponry, he will come to you, and your weaponry that has less than 24" range you care about much less than his. His vehicles move 14", plus an 18" range on his blasters and rapid-fire on his Splinter cannons means that his most important weapons have 32" threat. 24" is the no-mans land in normal deployment, and your most important weapons (heavy bolters, autocannons, primaris marine rifles, etc) all have 36" range. So on dawn of war deployment, start within 4" of the board edge. On hammer and anvil, within 16" of the board edge. Assume you will lose first turn, and you will find that you lose games because of it far less. Assuming that those squads are all 5-man with a special weapon in each, that means the difference between taking 40 poison shots and 6 dark lance shots turn 1, and taking 20 poison shots and 3 dark lance shots. That's the difference between 2 dead marines and chronus or the vendread at half HP, or 4 dead marines and one of those vital vehicles dead. On the flip side, assuming you get turn 1, it means you don't get to fire your regular boltguns at his tanks, but you do get to fire your flakk missile, your Hellfire shell (both of which will be hitting on 2s rerolling 1s thanks to the Signum on your devastators), 6 regular heavy bolters, 5 primaris bolt rifles, your sniper rifles, and your four autocannon shots at him, which is enough to knock down both Raiders with average rolls. the boltguns would barely make any difference.
-Anything that gets cracked out of a transport should be shot down with anti-infantry weaponry. tactical squads sitting in cover trading fire with kabalite warriors or wyches will win, and units like wyches are far easier to deal with before they crash your lines and start murdering you.
-The only units you really ahve to worry about in close combat are the wyches, the HQs, and the incubi. most of them (possible exception of the Archon before his shield gets blown) can be bounced by your own characters or dreadnought, and the succubus or the wyches could be punched by the primaris marines if you got the charge - if he gives you the chance, dont hesitate to charge because you're worried about the swing back. Primaris marines charging incubi kill 2 on the charge, or half-health the succubus/kill half the wyches. close combat is not totally hopeless for you. Thats not even thinking about the Reaver bikes or Kabalites, who you can easily take if given the chance.
Overall my advice is: dont get discouraged. Getting good at your army when your codex is among the worse ones in the game means when you do inevitably get buffed and your army goes up in power, you will be that much better at using your tools. Dont feel that changing your list is the only thing you can do to make a difference in your games - I promise it will only frustrate you more when it doesn't work.
Great post. I didn't think about that Twin LC myself. I'd keep it for take all comers, but if you just want to hand DE their ass - THB it is.
I fought DE with my Thousand Sons last week and it was a total massacre. Poison kills my army dead. Has been the only time that tzaangors have been a liability and I wished I had more rubrics. Was a blood bath. Now I'm sure I could tailor a list to win but I don't list tailor so its just a uphill battle and probably my very worst matchup.
Poison scares me so little with plenty of rubes to take the hits. It's the gd disintegrators that give me heartburn even if I get a 5++ on them.
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!
Martel732 wrote: It's almost like I know what I'm talking about, despite some posters cries to the contrary.
I have to admit that some of your statements are sometimes a bit over the top but generally correct for the most part.
Entire DE codex is underpriced as of now, there's no way a marine can beat them unless the DE player/list is really subpar
Cabalytes? Space marine shooting efficiency for just 6 points...my Hormagaunts are 5 pts a piece and do no damage (whilst having a worse save as well and no 6+ FNP)
Prophets of Flesh Wracks are T4 (often T5 with just a Haemunculus within 6") 4++ 6++ troop that dish solid poisoned damage in CQC for mere 9 points...and you can replace them all for 2 CP as if they were Cultists with end of movement phase deep strike.
Ravagers are Predators that for some reason cost 125 pts as opposed to 190...gg GW
Venom is 65 points for a great shooting platform that also manages to carry 6 models a piece whilst eluding the 3X FAQ since they're Dedicated Transport...guess why all DE are spamming them!
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
33% less damage from lascannons, 18% less damage from missile launchers, 77% more damage from autocannons, 100% more damage from heavy bolters. Seems like the weapons you want to shoot at Raiders are actually less specialized than the ones you want to shoot at Rhinos, because after I kill that transport I'm going to have much more success dakka'ing up the kabalite warriors inside with my heavy bolter than I am shooting the marines with that lascannon.
The reason Raiders are generally better is that they have a real gun, and open topped. They are indeed usually less durable, and if you build your army towards a drukhari-heavy meta (which we'll probably see people do) you'll counter it fairly hard, because the same guns work well against 100% of the army.
I will change something my list for get all the advices. Very true about the LC. I only was thinking for anti vehicles, because of the D6 wounds. I know the first time I had few heavy weapons, he was no scared about moving. Probably with more Heavy Weapons he will have fewer option to moove.
Next time the match will be more fair. I maked some deployment fails, also movement, and I think the most important...I did not know anything about Drukhari... know your enemy.
It still takes a lot of heavy bolters to plow through a raider. I don't think your typical marine list can count on this approach. 45 heavy bolter shots, to be precise. Yeah, it takes 90 to kill that Rhino, but 45 is still a LOT. Raiders are great. They also have the option for -1 to be hit, so that makes it 60 shots. That's not happening.
Martel732 wrote: It still takes a lot of heavy bolters to plow through a raider. I don't think your typical marine list can count on this approach. 45 heavy bolter shots, to be precise. Yeah, it takes 90 to kill that Rhino, but 45 is still a LOT. Raiders are great. They also have the option for -1 to be hit, so that makes it 60 shots. That's not happening.
Your opponent can opt to make his raider -1 to hit with a stratagem, which is why (here's another tactical tip for OP) you should start with your incidental anti tank weapons before committing your more serious squads.
Let's say we're in the above situation with the list OP posted, arrayed against the 2 raiders, 1 venom. OPs got a dev squad with missile launcher and 3 HBs, some Primaris Marines with boltguns, a dread with twin auto, and a double-HB razor Chronus (who in an optimal situation would be a Stalker as Chronus, but assuming we've got what we've got right now).
If you start with the devastators, your opponent is just going to pop the -1 to hit and get value out of that on the very first attack. But if you start with the Primaris Marines, then the Snipers, then Chronus at the same target raider, the Raider is going to take about 5 wounds on average and give the appearance that OP would like to focus that particular raider down. By the time he commits Chronus, his opponent will probably have popped his -1 to hit stratagem for 2 of his 7 CP (assuming opponent is running a mixed-drukhari single Battalion).
The devastator squad and dread, assuming you've got your buff bubbles on them and you use your own Flakk Missile and Hellfire shells, have enough firepower to down the other raider entirely in a single turn.
In the worst case, assuming your opponent decides to wait it out and pull out the strat against the devs, you only commit one gun at a time, so you start with your missile launcher, pop your Signum to keep yourself at 2 to hit rerolling 1s with the flakk missile, and then re-evaluate afterwards whether it's worth trying to bull through whatever that Raider has left or whether you want to swap targets and try to down or hurt the other raider with the 3 HBdevs and the Dread.
Martel732 wrote: It's almost like I know what I'm talking about, despite some posters cries to the contrary.
I have to admit that some of your statements are sometimes a bit over the top but generally correct for the most part.
Entire DE codex is underpriced as of now, there's no way a marine can beat them unless the DE player/list is really subpar
Cabalytes? Space marine shooting efficiency for just 6 points...my Hormagaunts are 5 pts a piece and do no damage (whilst having a worse save as well and no 6+ FNP)
Prophets of Flesh Wracks are T4 (often T5 with just a Haemunculus within 6") 4++ 6++ troop that dish solid poisoned damage in CQC for mere 9 points...and you can replace them all for 2 CP as if they were Cultists with end of movement phase deep strike.
Ravagers are Predators that for some reason cost 125 pts as opposed to 190...gg GW
Venom is 65 points for a great shooting platform that also manages to carry 6 models a piece whilst eluding the 3X FAQ since they're Dedicated Transport...guess why all DE are spamming them!
Completely disagree, i think the Marine book is the problem and needs to be fix.
Martel732 wrote: It's almost like I know what I'm talking about, despite some posters cries to the contrary.
I have to admit that some of your statements are sometimes a bit over the top but generally correct for the most part.
Entire DE codex is underpriced as of now, there's no way a marine can beat them unless the DE player/list is really subpar
Cabalytes? Space marine shooting efficiency for just 6 points...my Hormagaunts are 5 pts a piece and do no damage (whilst having a worse save as well and no 6+ FNP)
Prophets of Flesh Wracks are T4 (often T5 with just a Haemunculus within 6") 4++ 6++ troop that dish solid poisoned damage in CQC for mere 9 points...and you can replace them all for 2 CP as if they were Cultists with end of movement phase deep strike.
Ravagers are Predators that for some reason cost 125 pts as opposed to 190...gg GW
Venom is 65 points for a great shooting platform that also manages to carry 6 models a piece whilst eluding the 3X FAQ since they're Dedicated Transport...guess why all DE are spamming them!
Completely disagree, i think the Marine book is the problem and needs to be fix.
I think the reality lies inbetween. Marines are weak and Drukhari are very strong.
Martel732 wrote: It still takes a lot of heavy bolters to plow through a raider. I don't think your typical marine list can count on this approach. 45 heavy bolter shots, to be precise. Yeah, it takes 90 to kill that Rhino, but 45 is still a LOT. Raiders are great. They also have the option for -1 to be hit, so that makes it 60 shots. That's not happening.
He was talking about putting TAC instead of TLC.
With reroll 1s that is...
12 * .777 * .666 * .666 = 4.1
A TLC on the other hand is...
2 * .777 * .666 * .666 * 3.5 = 2.4
So you COULD take the TLC regardless and hope for failed invulns and go for big damage, but the margins are so slim on that. Though, like I said, keep the TLC for take all comers, but that isn't relevant here.
And it gets worse for TLC with -1 to hit since the standard deviation will be very high with so fewer dice.
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!
A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.
Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
Martel732 wrote: It still takes a lot of heavy bolters to plow through a raider. I don't think your typical marine list can count on this approach. 45 heavy bolter shots, to be precise. Yeah, it takes 90 to kill that Rhino, but 45 is still a LOT. Raiders are great. They also have the option for -1 to be hit, so that makes it 60 shots. That's not happening.
He was talking about putting TAC instead of TLC.
With reroll 1s that is...
12 * .777 * .666 * .666 = 4.1
A TLC on the other hand is...
2 * .777 * .666 * .666 * 3.5 = 2.4
So you COULD take the TLC regardless and hope for failed invulns and go for big damage, but the margins are so slim on that. Though, like I said, keep the TLC for take all comers, but that isn't relevant here.
And it gets worse for TLC with -1 to hit since the standard deviation will be very high with so fewer dice.
Yeah, twin autocannon would be 100% the best choice. Only reason I was talking about twin HBs is because I know the actual kit comes with that option - twin HB would not be an optimal choice compared to the autocannon but it would at least not be a total waste of points like the lascannon.
Op had nearly enough points sunk into those lascannons and other unnecessary gear (like sgt chronus, second captain instead of lieutenant, tac squad heavy weapons) to flat out purchase an extra stalker and pop it in at 1k points.
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Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
Oh god no. Drukhari is the real deal. They won't be meta dominant because it's pretty simple to tailor them out, but they're high tier to be sure.
Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?
Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?
I'll corroborate this a little.
Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.
Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.
Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37
Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?
I'll corroborate this a little.
Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.
Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.
Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37
Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.
I've been tracking the results of the ITC events of the last 3 weekends. It is true that Drukhari are winning quite a few games, but not to the point of calling them OP. CWE are still the ones getting the highest number of wins, followed by Thousand sons, Drukhari, Tyranids, Necrons, Astra Militarum, Tau, Custodes, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Demons, CSM, Death Guard...
In general they are really close to each other, there is no faction truly dominating, but is true that SM are not getting a fair share of wins.
I would point more to the SM codex needing some work more than Drukhari requiring a nerf. I just played against them with my nids, and while i did lose, it was due a couple of mistakes i made, i didn't feel outpowered by them.
Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?
I'll corroborate this a little.
Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.
Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.
Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37
Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.
Spoletta wrote: I've been tracking the results of the ITC events of the last 3 weekends. It is true that Drukhari are winning quite a few games, but not to the point of calling them OP. CWE are still the ones getting the highest number of wins, followed by Thousand sons, Drukhari, Tyranids, Necrons, Astra Militarum, Tau, Custodes, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Demons, CSM, Death Guard...
In general they are really close to each other, there is no faction truly dominating, but is true that SM are not getting a fair share of wins.
I would point more to the SM codex needing some work more than Drukhari requiring a nerf. I just played against them with my nids, and while i did lose, it was due a couple of mistakes i made, i didn't feel outpowered by them.
Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?
I'll corroborate this a little.
Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.
Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.
Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37
Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.
Pre-FAQ.
Wow - didn't know that was pre FAQ - seems absolutely absurd because it was literally...yesterday. Faq been out a month already. In any case I'm not saying they are the best army - only that they are a top army. They are not mid tier. Space marines - literally the worst army in the game. They were worse than most index armies.
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!
A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.
Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.
How many autocannons you see in competitive games? Stop pretending to be serious with these bad examples
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!
A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.
Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.
How many autocannons you see in competitive games? Stop pretending to be serious with these bad examples
If Dark Eldar keep appearing in competitive environments then you'll start to see a lot of them, because stuff like autocannons and assault cannons completely wreck their day.
If Dark Eldar keep appearing in competitive environments then you'll start to see a lot of them, because stuff like autocannons and assault cannons completely wreck their day.
And then GW will see them wrecking DE and increase the points costs for them untill they are as unplayable in a competitive setting as everything else in the marine codex
Quite frankly Imho marine armies without FW models belong in a display cabinet not the table, if your playing 8th edition matched play.
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!
A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.
Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.
How many autocannons you see in competitive games? Stop pretending to be serious with these bad examples
A lot nowadays. I just got done meta-analyzing 300 lists for an upcoming post-FAQGT because it was the first time to my knowledge such a large amount of current list data was available for competitive play. With Necrons and Drukhari added in to competitive play as well as Custodes Biker captains (who also feature an invuln save exactly one lower than their armor save and the Fly keyword) a lot of people seem to be using autocannons as a standard anti-tank option.
Martel732 wrote: Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.
Exactly this. Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!
A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.
Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.
Ok, do the math with HB's, near a captain at least.
Venom vs HB's with re-roll 1's to hit and -1 to be shot: 31 shots to kill a Venom, 37 shots as BH (10-13 HB's) Rhino vs HB's with re-roll 1's: 78 shots to kill a Rhino (23-24 HB's)
WOW... its almost like it takes double the shots.. hmm....
Different vehicles are better at different things, you cant say 1 is better than the other b.c 1 weapon is weaker than the other compare to one. Rhino also has 10 transport, Venom has 5, Rhino can get -1 to hit for a turn as well. You cant compare them in a vacuum with 1 weapon.
IMO The Rhino needs to be slightly cheaper for sure, almost no one plays with them and there is a reason why, they are over costed. Venoms are not undercosted, they are just now playable for what they do. Personally i dont even like Venoms i think they are a waste of points and my comp list only take 1 so i can have a spot for my 2 Succubus.
What is slightly undercosted for DE are Grotesques, they are some of my favorites and i would hate for them to go up in points, but i think they will go up by 2-3pts soon, Ravagers might go up 10pts as well.
Maybe Space Marines units needs another point check. Maybe the weapons . Maybe the entire faction. Probably once all Codex are out there will be a Big FAQ that adjust the entire game. We will see what´s coming out from tournaments.
Okay, I ordered online an Stalker. If it arrives before I play again fine, if not I will play with the new knowledge I adquired today with all you. I get also today a new dread, 10 more tactical, 5 veterans and a Rhino for a cheap interchange ( Sisters from my old collection).
Alex_85 wrote: Maybe Space Marines units needs another point check. Maybe the weapons . Maybe the entire faction. Probably once all Codex are out there will be a Big FAQ that adjust the entire game. We will see what´s coming out from tournaments.
Okay, I ordered online an Stalker. If it arrives before I play again fine, if not I will play with the new knowledge I adquired today with all you. I get also today a new dread, 10 more tactical, 5 veterans and a Rhino for a cheap interchange ( Sisters from my old collection).
In the worst case, assuming your opponent decides to wait it out and pull out the strat against the devs, you only commit one gun at a time, so you start with your missile launcher, pop your Signum to keep yourself at 2 to hit rerolling 1s with the flakk missile, and then re-evaluate afterwards whether it's worth trying to bull through whatever that Raider has left or whether you want to swap targets and try to down or hurt the other raider with the 3 HBdevs and the Dread.
Note that you can't reevaluate mid unit even when using a strategem. So those 3 HBDevs have to shoot the target they declared before the flak missile was resolved.
Spoletta wrote: I've been tracking the results of the ITC events of the last 3 weekends. It is true that Drukhari are winning quite a few games, but not to the point of calling them OP. CWE are still the ones getting the highest number of wins, followed by Thousand sons, Drukhari, Tyranids, Necrons, Astra Militarum, Tau, Custodes, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Demons, CSM, Death Guard...
In general they are really close to each other, there is no faction truly dominating, but is true that SM are not getting a fair share of wins.
I would point more to the SM codex needing some work more than Drukhari requiring a nerf. I just played against them with my nids, and while i did lose, it was due a couple of mistakes i made, i didn't feel outpowered by them.
Blackie wrote: Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.
Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.
They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?
I'll corroborate this a little.
Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.
Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.
Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37
Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.
Pre-FAQ.
Wow - didn't know that was pre FAQ - seems absolutely absurd because it was literally...yesterday. Faq been out a month already. In any case I'm not saying they are the best army - only that they are a top army. They are not mid tier. Space marines - literally the worst army in the game. They were worse than most index armies.
A better indication might be the Alamo GT from a couple weeks ago now. 80+ players and Drukhari 1st and 2nd.
I suspect that part of the problem is that Drukhari are quite different to most other armies in the way they play and we haven't seen much from them for years now in competitive play. I suspect that there's quite a few tournement players out there that's never faced them before, or at least very rarely faced them, and at the moment aren't sure about the best ways to deal with them.
Use both hellfire shells and flakk missiles to load them up with mortal wounds. This way you mitigate some of their iv saves advantage. It costs cp but its worth it.
Also use frag and krak grenades whenever you have the chance. They are usefull vs de.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One de list i faced had 21 dark lances on stuff with fly. And mandrakes(?) that spams mortal wounds. It's almost impossible to not get tabled vs that with my marines.
A better indication might be the Alamo GT from a couple weeks ago now. 80+ players and Drukhari 1st and 2nd.
I suspect that part of the problem is that Drukhari are quite different to most other armies in the way they play and we haven't seen much from them for years now in competitive play. I suspect that there's quite a few tournement players out there that's never faced them before, or at least very rarely faced them, and at the moment aren't sure about the best ways to deal with them.
People had a week on that to adjust lists if they were using the new FAQ. FAQ was out 4/19. Lists due 4/25. There is little chance many of those people were able to process the changes in that amount of time.
That isn't to say DE aren't strong, but that this might not be a good representative sample.
It is clear to me though now that armies with significant amounts of flying units are showing up that anti-air should be making a strong comeback. Stormhawks, stalkers, hydras, etc. Tau and Eldar are prime targets with a large player base.
If it doesn´t arrive before we play again....maybe...maybe I say the rhino is an Stalker. But just maybe. We are friends jajajaja.
regards
Yea it's nice against flyers. I still prefer the Stormhawk as it can pop a raider in one go with TAC, Icarus and Skyhammer (for more points of course).
If Dark Eldar keep appearing in competitive environments then you'll start to see a lot of them, because stuff like autocannons and assault cannons completely wreck their day.
And then GW will see them wrecking DE and increase the points costs for them untill they are as unplayable in a competitive setting as everything else in the marine codex
Quite frankly Imho marine armies without FW models belong in a display cabinet not the table, if your playing 8th edition matched play.
???
Because GW have always had a soft spot for DE, and have made sure they were looked after???
I suspect that part of the problem is that Drukhari are quite different to most other armies in the way they play and we haven't seen much from them for years now in competitive play. I suspect that there's quite a few tournement players out there that's never faced them before, or at least very rarely faced them, and at the moment aren't sure about the best ways to deal with them.
It's exactly this. Not many DE players around and many of them don't play competitive lists.
We'll see after a few months if drukhari are really that good.
Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.
Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.
Xenomancers wrote: Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.
Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.
The thing is tho, DE has some clear weakness, if tournaments dont play with those that doesnt mean DE is insanely strong, it means they are Scissor in a Paper's world.
I still stand by my 1st post, DE isnt the problem, honestly SM are just weak atm, over costed due to a couple things in the codex that dont scale well with each other and are hard to balance.
Xenomancers wrote: Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.
Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.
The thing is tho, DE has some clear weakness, if tournaments dont play with those that doesnt mean DE is insanely strong, it means they are Scissor in a Paper's world.
I still stand by my 1st post, DE isnt the problem, honestly SM are just weak atm, over costed due to a couple things in the codex that dont scale well with each other and are hard to balance.
I totally agree with you - they aren't over the top compared to craftworlds/nids/AM+soup. Space marines are just trash - it's time people just admit it. Getting tired of repeating myself. Give people like the OP an honest assessment - stop expecting to beat nuclear subs with diesels. You will fail every-time.
Also - it really doesn't have a weakness ether. They can be tough with covens/ have insane shooting and mobility with kabals / cults can tie up expensive units for pennies.
They're not that cheap. Drukhari are not an horde army.
The "insane" shooting is lackluster against hordes though, and they have no psykers. They're not even that tough, coven stuff can have a 4+ and 6+ FNP but they're not killing machines.
In a real 40k game, that lasts 5-7 turns, things are very different than tournaments, where even orks (which are way worse than SM) manage to compete.
At the end... SM are the problem. Last weeks in order to learn about 8 edition I saw a lot of Batle Report ( Winters Seo and Tabletop Tactics). I think from Winters I only saw one victory of SM. I was watching and thinking.... dam... SM loses and loses no mather. About Tabletop Tactics, I only saw a couple reports, and the only with SM ( Dark Angels) they lost against Necron.
I know that Battle Reports are not the best way to say what works, but statistically...men, at least a 20% of Wins, but one from 15+ is trash.
Xenomancers wrote: Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.
Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.
The thing is tho, DE has some clear weakness, if tournaments dont play with those that doesnt mean DE is insanely strong, it means they are Scissor in a Paper's world.
I still stand by my 1st post, DE isnt the problem, honestly SM are just weak atm, over costed due to a couple things in the codex that dont scale well with each other and are hard to balance.
I totally agree with you - they aren't over the top compared to craftworlds/nids/AM+soup. Space marines are just trash - it's time people just admit it. Getting tired of repeating myself. Give people like the OP an honest assessment - stop expecting to beat nuclear subs with diesels. You will fail every-time.
Also - it really doesn't have a weakness ether. They can be tough with covens/ have insane shooting and mobility with kabals / cults can tie up expensive units for pennies.
An honest assessment is also realizing that "army tiers" matter far, far, far FAR less when you stop looking at things from a competitive/tournament standpoint.
Look at the matchup OP is facing here. Notice that it's a single mixed drukhari battalion, with no ravagers, and no grotesques, and a unit of incubi. Either that or it's two patrols and his opponent is playing with 3CP.
That's not a list that's going to categorically invalidate a marine list. Asserting that that is so is being categorically dishonest. OPs list/lists is definitely more casual, but the fact that he's got expensive heavy weapons in tactical squads, random sgt chronus in a Razorback, double captains and no lieutenant, mixed weapons in squads etc is much more of a major factor than the fact that he's playing a low-tier army.
When people don't separate the level of importance army tiers play in competitive tournament metas and the level of importance they place in casual club metas, they start blaming army tier for losses that are caused by suboptimal list and game decisions, and those list and game decisions are never improved. As a consequence, they're just going to keep losing until they get frustrated and quit.
it is equally fantasy to pretend that army tiers don't matter or make a difference at all, but generally when giving tactical advice or receiving it, it's a helpful fantasy, because it keeps your brain from diverting to the easy, emotionally pleasing "I lost because of circumstances that were outside my control and for no other reason! Damn you GW!!!!!!!"
Martel732 wrote: For what they do, Drukhari are pretty damn cheap.
Anti horde is very much a problem for this army and we hate kill point missions.
The shredder begs to differ - IMO most DE are taking way too many blaster and not enough shredder. Not being able to kill tanks later in the game might be a concern but when your whole armies is fast and flies you don't really need to worry about armor anymore at that point in the game - you can just keep them from shooting.
My DE list has 10 shredders and only 2 blasters on it's warriors for example. OFC all 3 archons have blasters and all my raiders have dark lances. I've found this to work best for the high hordes I expect to encounter. The ignore cover I get from flayed skull more than makes up for wounding on 4's instead of 3's. Infantry is no problem my friend.
The last time someone linked 3 tourny standings in one of these discussions, Marines were in the top 10 in all 3.
The last time Marines were at the top of the heap was only a few months ago.
In the last year, AM, Marines, CSM, Death Guard, Eldar, and Dark Eldar have all been the top army in the game. Sisters, Demons, Thousand Sons, Custodes, and more have all been powerful.
The meta shifts all the time in 40k. Some armies are typically near the top (CWE and SM), some are typically near the bottom (GK and DE). But it changes all the time.
One problem with the forums for Marines is that people always complain about Marines. Even when SM is the top book, there are just as many "SM are trash" threads on dakka dakka. SM is second to CWE only in "Who's been top dog the most" over the past several years. But you'll still see 10 pages of rebuttal and denial.
If you're getting into the hobby, don't pay so much attention to what people are saying about standings. First, because what you hear is going to be bogus. Second, what's top dog when you start building an army and what's top dog when you finish are not likely to be the same thing. Third, finally, and most importantly, your army should be what you enjoy most - if all you care about is the crunch and the competition, computers do that better.
So this is a great place to ask questions about tactics or discuss the hobby, but a terrible place to inform what you should and shouldn't be collecting/building/painting. You spend far too much time on any given model taking it from grey sprues to table-ready warriors to field someone else's idea of what an army should be.
Xenomancers wrote: Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.
Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.
The thing is tho, DE has some clear weakness, if tournaments dont play with those that doesnt mean DE is insanely strong, it means they are Scissor in a Paper's world.
I still stand by my 1st post, DE isnt the problem, honestly SM are just weak atm, over costed due to a couple things in the codex that dont scale well with each other and are hard to balance.
I totally agree with you - they aren't over the top compared to craftworlds/nids/AM+soup. Space marines are just trash - it's time people just admit it. Getting tired of repeating myself. Give people like the OP an honest assessment - stop expecting to beat nuclear subs with diesels. You will fail every-time.
Also - it really doesn't have a weakness ether. They can be tough with covens/ have insane shooting and mobility with kabals / cults can tie up expensive units for pennies.
An honest assessment is also realizing that "army tiers" matter far, far, far FAR less when you stop looking at things from a competitive/tournament standpoint.
Look at the matchup OP is facing here. Notice that it's a single mixed drukhari battalion, with no ravagers, and no grotesques, and a unit of incubi. Either that or it's two patrols and his opponent is playing with 3CP.
That's not a list that's going to categorically invalidate a marine list. Asserting that that is so is being categorically dishonest. OPs list/lists is definitely more casual, but the fact that he's got expensive heavy weapons in tactical squads, random sgt chronus in a Razorback, double captains and no lieutenant, mixed weapons in squads etc is much more of a major factor than the fact that he's playing a low-tier army.
When people don't separate the level of importance army tiers play in competitive tournament metas and the level of importance they place in casual club metas, they start blaming army tier for losses that are caused by suboptimal list and game decisions, and those list and game decisions are never improved. As a consequence, they're just going to keep losing until they get frustrated and quit.
it is equally fantasy to pretend that army tiers don't matter or make a difference at all, but generally when giving tactical advice or receiving it, it's a helpful fantasy, because it keeps your brain from diverting to the easy, emotionally pleasing "I lost because of circumstances that were outside my control and for no other reason! Damn you GW!!!!!!!"
All you are gonna do is start an arms race that he will eventually lose because his arms dealer sucks compared to the other guy. Best to let him know the truth.
So, improving your play and list building decisions is just starting an "arms race" and the correct answer is to sit around and refuse to play (presumably while complaining online and telling others to give up) until such time as GW makes your army so top-tier that you can take your non synergistic poorly played army and steamroll?
I guess I can't say it doesn't seem like a popular strategy.
Bharring wrote: Assuming the meta remains the same over the next six months. Which seems far from certain.
What is certain is that every comparable top teir choice in space marines is worse than the DE equivalent by more than a small margin. I'd like to think that marines will get a much needed buff but I really doubt it's going to happen. Marines are one of the most nerfed armies in this edition. Guilliman has been increased in price twice. The points drops on the units they buffed were so tiny - they didn't even make up for the nerfs on their actual good units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
the_scotsman wrote: So, improving your play and list building decisions is just starting an "arms race" and the correct answer is to sit around and refuse to play (presumably while complaining online and telling others to give up) until such time as GW makes your army so top-tier that you can take your non synergistic poorly played army and steamroll?
I guess I can't say it doesn't seem like a popular strategy.
I put my marines on the shelf a long time ago. I only play them in fun games or as punching bags. If I want to play a competitive game I play tau/DE/craftworld/nids.
Yes I asume I played bad.From the beginning. Not having heavy weapons was a BIG mistake. I know. And I know next match will be better for me.
But, still have this feeling that Drukhari are much more better balanced in points and rules and that SM seems to be a little nerfed. But, I asume also that a nerfed faction well played can do it very well if you don´t do mistakes and choosing well.
I learned a lot allong this thread. He has much more experience tan me playing, and has his self SM ( knows SM weakness). Have to surprise him.
I will let you know next match. Now he has got new vehicles and also troops. Will be interesting.
An additional piece of advice, an addendum to the keep them at arms length suggestion:
Do keep them at an arms length. But if their Kabs or Raiders get too close, don't be afraid to give them a nice big hug. With your fists.
Your Tacs are bad in CC compared to Incubi or Wyches, but against same-points Kabs or Raiders, if they were foolish enough to get too close, a surprise charge can do mean things.
Also note that transports/tanks charging will also throw people off. Your Razorback can actually charge things! Not the incubi, unless you really need to. But Kabs or Wyches. Conversely, their Raiders can charge you. Also, be prepared for this nasty surprise: their raiders can fall back *then shoot* because Fly.
To be a CC unit, you don't need to have a super awesome weapon or lots of attacks. It just needs to be better at CC than the poor sod opposite it. In small or casual games, that is often Tac Marines. Don't expect to see that sort of thing at top tables in tournies, but at your level, it can be a fun little surprise.
Don't expect your Tacs to kill things in CC, but they'll outfight things. And, typically, my Tacs do best in CC in taking the heat off my HQs - who do the real damage.
As others have said, in most circumstances, cleaning up your list and figuring out how your units play will go a long way towards evening the gap. Unless you are prepping for a major tournament, even against other good players army tier as a whole will seldom matter.
Of course if your pond is big enough, there may very well be some hyper competitive players looking to test out their latest tournament list. Just go into those games with a heads up and be ready to fast the worst of a hyper competitive soup list.
As far as fighting Elves. the best thing you can do is keep your forces together and push aggressively on the elves. The absolute worst thing you can do against Elves is play passively and spread out. Letting Eldar of any kind maneuver around terrain to isolate and destroy your army piece by piece is a recipe for disaster. Play aggressively and get in their face so that their superior mobility matters less. Its also important to not lose your composure after taking a big hit. Remember that Elves tend to have a very glass jaw, and even a weakened counter punch can often break their back, I know when I play my Eldar I'm often hopping for shock and awe to get into my opponents head and cause them to play more defensively instead of counter punching.
Actually, elves do NOT have a glass jaw to shooting. Don't fool yourself into thinking they do. To take away most of their special gimmicks, you need to be in melee.
Raiders are tougher than Rhinos against most AT guns.
Serpents are tougher than almost anything in the game vs D2 guns.
Venoms get a built-in -1 to hit, taking plasma off the table.
But the rest of the advice is great. But realize that you are going to have to focus a LOT of fire at their units.
"Raiders are tougher than RHinos against most AT guns" As long as AT is just Lascannons and better, not AutoCannons or such. And then, not by much.
"Serpents are tougher than almost anything in the game vs D2 guns" then don't use D2 guns. Against D6 or D1 guns, Rhinos are a lot tougher per point. D2 guns are perfectly optimised for not killing Serpents. Also, he's fasing DE not CWE.
"Venoms get a built-in -1 to hit, taking plasma off the table." Or don't overcharge the guns. You do half the damage, but you don't blow up. Sure, it makes spamming Plas as your AT weapon of choice suboptimal vs DE. I wish more things did that.
Anti-elite weapons (Plasma guns) and weapons desgned to pop super tough targets (Lascannons) are not ideal when aiming at either non-elites (Kabs) or light vehicles (Raiders). Anti-GEQ and anti-light armor weapons (Heavy bolters, ACs, etc) are a much better option. If you spec your army for killing Termies and Land Raiders, you're not going to kill DE efficiently.
Marines can't afford to bring a wide spectrum of weapons usually. I've punted all the lascannons out of my lists because of Xenos for these reasons.
I personally find plasma to be flashy, but ultimately not that useful for marines, because they can't afford the blow ups and -1 to hit trait cripples them.
Marines actually don't have that many good ways to bring autocannons or heavy bolters. I said GOOD ways. Not total ways.
Bharring wrote: "Raiders are tougher than RHinos against most AT guns" As long as AT is just Lascannons and better, not AutoCannons or such. And then, not by much.
"Serpents are tougher than almost anything in the game vs D2 guns" then don't use D2 guns. Against D6 or D1 guns, Rhinos are a lot tougher per point. D2 guns are perfectly optimised for not killing Serpents. Also, he's fasing DE not CWE.
"Venoms get a built-in -1 to hit, taking plasma off the table." Or don't overcharge the guns. You do half the damage, but you don't blow up. Sure, it makes spamming Plas as your AT weapon of choice suboptimal vs DE. I wish more things did that.
Anti-elite weapons (Plasma guns) and weapons desgned to pop super tough targets (Lascannons) are not ideal when aiming at either non-elites (Kabs) or light vehicles (Raiders). Anti-GEQ and anti-light armor weapons (Heavy bolters, ACs, etc) are a much better option. If you spec your army for killing Termies and Land Raiders, you're not going to kill DE efficiently.
As math has shown already in this post, a HB is 2x stronger against a Raider than a Rhino, you need the right weapons for the right Job, there are NO SUCH THING ASAT GUNS ANYMORE, players need to learn this, Tanks are just MC now, you need weapons to handle each unit, some Tanks are better vs Lascannons, some are better vs HB's, and some you just need Bolters.
8th isnt like other editions, we need to stop talking about AT as High S high D weapons.
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, too. You still need dozens and dozens of heavy bolter shots against a raider. So where is my statement about needing to focus them down being invalidated?
Martel732 wrote: Yeah, that's what I was trying to say, too. You still need dozens and dozens of heavy bolter shots against a raider. So where is my statement about needing to focus them down being invalidated?
You can shoot Bolters, Bolt Rifles, HB's, Plasma, Tank guns (Stalkers etc..) Autocannons, etc..
In my experience, marines can't really afford to wound on 5's. Bolters are not much more effective vs raiders than any old T7 transport. Wjhen you get to Stalkers, now we are talking. But you still need mutiple 100+ point tanks to reliably down a sub 100 pt transport that the boards are calling "glass". Doesn't sound like glass.
I think that whatever marginal effectiveness gain some weaponry gains vs raiders is more than balanced out by 5++ and open topped.
Martel732 wrote: Marines can't afford to bring a wide spectrum of weapons usually. I've punted all the lascannons out of my lists because of Xenos for these reasons.
I personally find plasma to be flashy, but ultimately not that useful for marines, because they can't afford the blow ups and -1 to hit trait cripples them.
Marines actually don't have that many good ways to bring autocannons or heavy bolters. I said GOOD ways. Not total ways.
As compared to who? Guard?
A Hydra costs pretty much exactly the same as a Stalker, and it gets .3 extra autocannon hits on the same target, but it gives up 2 points of toughness and access to marines' aura buffs.
You're not thinking about Leman Russ Exterminators I hope, 155 points for 4 shots, BS4+, same statline as a Stalker plus one wound?
HWTs are double the shots for the same points, but shoot at BS4+ and are T3 5+ and for every 2 damage you lose an autocannon.
If you only need 1-2 more wounds to get it to 1-2 wound profile, it'll be worth shooting 10-20 bolters/bolt rifles/SB's at it to see if you cant get that 1 more wound off, being 5+ BS is better than 4+ and shooting at and maybe wounding something else.
I've had games where i lost 3 in 1 turn, 5++ isnt that great outside of a block against D6 weapons. If i'm wounded with 4 Plasma and block 1, thats still 6 wounds through.
Amishprn86 wrote: If you only need 1-2 more wounds to get it to 1-2 wound profile, it'll be worth shooting 10-20 bolters/bolt rifles/SB's at it to see if you cant get that 1 more wound off, being 5+ BS is better than 4+ and shooting at and maybe wounding something else.
I've had games where i lost 3 in 1 turn, 5++ isnt that great outside of a block against D6 weapons. If i'm wounded with 4 Plasma and block 1, thats still 6 wounds through.
Agreed, but you need to get it that close to degradation to being with. Not easy with marines.
Martel732 wrote: Marines can't afford to bring a wide spectrum of weapons usually. I've punted all the lascannons out of my lists because of Xenos for these reasons.
I personally find plasma to be flashy, but ultimately not that useful for marines, because they can't afford the blow ups and -1 to hit trait cripples them.
Marines actually don't have that many good ways to bring autocannons or heavy bolters. I said GOOD ways. Not total ways.
As compared to who? Guard?
A Hydra costs pretty much exactly the same as a Stalker, and it gets .3 extra autocannon hits on the same target, but it gives up 2 points of toughness and access to marines' aura buffs.
You're not thinking about Leman Russ Exterminators I hope, 155 points for 4 shots, BS4+, same statline as a Stalker plus one wound?
HWTs are double the shots for the same points, but shoot at BS4+ and are T3 5+ and for every 2 damage you lose an autocannon.
Havocs? Sentinels?
But if as you say S4 is enough why isn't a punisher with its 40 shots plus hull and sponsons in your list?
Martel732 wrote: In my experience, marines can't really afford to wound on 5's. Bolters are not much more effective vs raiders than any old T7 transport. Wjhen you get to Stalkers, now we are talking. But you still need mutiple 100+ point tanks to reliably down a sub 100 pt transport that the boards are calling "glass". Doesn't sound like glass.
I think that whatever marginal effectiveness gain some weaponry gains vs raiders is more than balanced out by 5++ and open topped.
A stalker with no marine aura buffs half-healths an 80 point raider. This is effectively causing 40 points of damage over the Stalker's 109 point cost, or 36.7% points return. Bear in mind targeting a 125 point dissie ravager this does up to 57.3% points return.
A dissie ravager, generally regarded among the most broken units in the dark eldar codex, firing at incredibly points-inefficient tactical marines out of cover, removes 43pts of marines a turn, or a 34.4% points return. Getting its full effectiveness gunning down its absolutely perfect target of Intercessors, it jumps up to a 47.7% points return.
It takes 9 bs3+ dark lance shots to take down a Stalker out of cover on average, or 11 disintegrators (33 shots). On Ravagers (again, arguably the most optimal platform for those weapons) that's a 23.7% points return for the dissies or a 25.9% points return for the dark lances.
From an uneducated standpoint, it would seem that a roughly equivalent points return up to about a twice as good points return on investment does seem to indicate a "glass cannon" effect.
Xenomancers wrote: Realistically venoms should be t4. That would probably fix them.
No, they wouldnt be played and Venoms are not the problem, Ravagers and Grots are. IMO Venoms are still not very good, they do an average of 1.5 to MEQ or 3 to GEQ wounds a turn within Rapid Range and with re-roll 1 to hit with ignore cover.
You spend 75pts for that extra shot(s), with 10 of them for 750pts you are killing 15 MEQs or 31 GEQ's... is that worth 750pts?
Xenomancers wrote: Realistically venoms should be t4. That would probably fix them.
No, they wouldnt be played and Venoms are not the problem, Ravagers and Grots are. IMO Venoms are still not very good, they do an average of 1.5 to MEQ or 3 to GEQ wounds a turn within Rapid Range and with re-roll 1 to hit with ignore cover.
You spend 75pts for that extra shot(s), with 10 of them for 750pts you are killing 15 MEQs or 31 GEQ's... is that worth 750pts?
So tell me how that is OP?
If it wasn't opentopped - it would be terrible. Since it can carry 5 cheapo kabs and more than double it's fire it becomes problematic. Super efficient MSU have always been the best units in the game.
Martel732 wrote: No, it doesn't half-health it. It only does about 4 wounds on average. 6*.833*.6666*.666*2= 4.44.
You're right - I had it in my head raiders were 9 wounds, they have 10.
Vs dissie raider - 32.6% points return
Vs dissie ravager - 50.9% points return.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry for the bad math, I'll edit when I'm not on my phone.
It would seem that the most undercoated op gun platform in the game gets a worse point return firing at what is arguably its most optimal targets (intercessors) than this other platform from the worst army in the game gets firing back at it.
37.6% efficient, puts it down to 2 wounds for a 6" move, and is cheaper than 2 stalkers by 58 points. Every marine list should have one of them right now.
Xenomancers wrote: Realistically venoms should be t4. That would probably fix them.
No, they wouldnt be played and Venoms are not the problem, Ravagers and Grots are. IMO Venoms are still not very good, they do an average of 1.5 to MEQ or 3 to GEQ wounds a turn within Rapid Range and with re-roll 1 to hit with ignore cover.
You spend 75pts for that extra shot(s), with 10 of them for 750pts you are killing 15 MEQs or 31 GEQ's... is that worth 750pts?
So tell me how that is OP?
If it wasn't opentopped - it would be terrible. Since it can carry 5 cheapo kabs and more than double it's fire it becomes problematic. Super efficient MSU have always been the best units in the game.
Oh wow now you are 1050pts to kill 27 MEQ or 58 GEQ within Rapid fire range (so they are also within that range) if your Kabals are out of double tap range (50 kabals) thats 6/12 dead MEQ/GEQ without upgrades
So on turn 1 a DE player with 1050pts of Venoms and Kabals will kill 21 Marines, b.c they cant shoot vehicles.... 1050pts to kill 336pts of guys or 200-250pts of IG/Cultist/Horrors/Tzaangors.
37.6% efficient, puts it down to 2 wounds for a 6" move, and is cheaper than 2 stalkers by 58 points. Every marine list should have one of them right now.
37.6% efficient, puts it down to 2 wounds for a 6" move, and is cheaper than 2 stalkers by 58 points. Every marine list should have one of them right now.
yeah for an army that already sucks - you cant bring a deciated antiflyer. That hits on 5's when there isn't a flyer around. But hey - at least it's rerolling it's 6+ save on a 1 when it get hits with a lascannon or can't even reroll hits save because it doesn't get one when it gets hit with a darklance.
yeah for an army that already sucks - you cant bring a deciated antiflyer. That hits on 5's when there isn't a flyer around. But hey - at least it's rerolling it's 6+ save on a 1 when it get hits with a lascannon or can't even reroll hits save because it doesn't get one when it gets hit with a darklance.
Psh. The TAC does just fine. Also there is barely a list without flyers. Hive Tyrants. Enlightened. Drones. Banana Bikes. Hemlocks.
Dakkapred vs Dissie raider: 26% points return. 25.7% for a last/auto pred, so whatever you judge a better tac option there.
Autocannon mortis dread vs Dissie Raider: 28% points return
Stormtalon with anti air missiles on the move: 28.5% points return.
Twin Assback vs Dissie Raider: 24.9% points return.
Dissie Ravager vs twin assault cannon razorback: 30.0% points return.
Dissie Ravager vs Rhino: 19% points return.
This is units from the worst codex compared to units from what is argued to be the best gunboat in the game, both firing into standard transports.
Xenomancers wrote: If you kill 27 meq in a single turn with half your army- you won the game. Just pack up. GG
Its 27 if you move within 12" of them.... thats not going to happen turn 1, and having 15+ drops DE will more likely go 2nd, if you cant kill 2-3 venoms turn 1 then you lost the game out of bad list building.
You can bring a dedicated anti flyer if you think every meta list is going to include units with fly. Every Eldar, every Tau, every list that includes custodes, every chaos soup list...everything but guard gunline and, well, Marines that don't bring flyers.
Are you seeing a ton of guard sans allies with fly?
Anti-fly is a whole lot less restrictive than the old anti-flier.
the_scotsman wrote: You can bring a dedicated anti flyer if you think every meta list is going to include units with fly. Every Eldar, every Tau, every list that includes custodes, every chaos soup list...everything but guard gunline and, well, Marines that don't bring flyers.
Are you seeing a ton of guard sans allies with fly?
Anti-fly is a whole lot less restrictive than the old anti-flier.
Dark Talons. Darkshroud. Land Speeders. IG gunlines are really rare. And if everyone brings a Stormhawk you can have a Stormhawk fight! YMMV depending on your local meta.
Shining Spears
Xiphons
Death Company w/ Jump
Stormboyz
Xenomancers wrote: If you kill 27 meq in a single turn with half your army- you won the game. Just pack up. GG
Its 27 if you move within 12" of them.... thats not going to happen turn 1, and having 15+ drops DE will more likely go 2nd, if you cant kill 2-3 venoms turn 1 then you lost the game out of bad list building.
How the heck is it not happening turn 1...they move 19 inches...It's unlikely they wont be assaulting turn 1 ether. Plus - a mix of venoms and raiders works best anyways. You don't need 10 venoms - this army has an average number of drops and plus - going first is close so close to 50% regardless of your number of drops it really isn't even a factor. I learned this playing tau with 20+ drop - it just doesn't matter.
But I agree that "3 ravagers, maybe 2-3 RWJFs, 2-3 units of Grots and a veritable horde of Kabalites (in boats or otherwise - I think boats aren't strictly needed since your entire army is a target priority)" is a world away from "I grabbed some random units in order to make up some patrols and threw them on the table".
I do think Ravagers buffed under a dual reroll 1s aura are top tier because they have a very solid effectiveness versus a huge range of targets in the game. If the codex had come out earlier you might have seen armies with 8 of them. As it is now they only get 3. They are nice, but its not the same level as skew as might have been. In 1k points its nasty. In 2k points its starting to get diluted.
Dis Cannons will most likely go up to 20pts, its only 5pts but if you take 13-15 of them that still 65-75pts, thats a full 1 less Venom. Grots will go up 2-3 points as well.
We are going to have another match. He has new minis and I have not a big selection. This is all the firepower I have. I have now a Stalker. More or less I Will play again as Ultramarine so that in fall of being charged and survive, go back in my turn and shot again (-1 but better than fight in melee). The good news is also It seems that our small W40K comunity will earn a new player (he is thinking bettween necrons and thousand donde)and maybe a friend is coming back where we live. But at the moment this is the list for our second game 1000point with objectives.
Devastator Squad [11 PL, 147pts]: Armorium Cherub
. 2x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
He seize iniciative. First turn, first shots, first 5 saves, 5 misses, 5 first devastators killed. Big part of my plan in 3 minutes,bye.
At the end of turn 2 he was winning 5 to 2.
Then, turn 3 he missed a couple of blasters and then my Warlord... he scored ( with one wound left after surviving one combad round against Sucubu, Drakan and 4 wytches) Slay Warlord, kill a character and the pluss D3 of prioritary order, where I got a 5 in the roll. 5 points. Turn 4 I got 3 more points and I was leading by 5 points remaining my Stalker, my Dread, my Warlord, two scouts, 3 intercessors. He gives up.
Thank you all for the Stalker advice. He was surprised. This time the Ven Dread worked very well and also the intercesor did a great job. I think Sgt. Chronus with his 2+ for shooting helped a lot for the few point he cost.
Dark Eldar can certainly field a lot of bodies and a lot of firepower but ultimately the key to victory is to take down their vehicles as quickly as possible as their speed and the fly keyword is the greatest strength they have.
Chapter tactics you want to consider either:
Ultramarines - stops those pesky vehicles locking you in combat and stopping you from shooting
Salamanders - you need those vehicles gone - the re-roll for 1 hit and 1 wound per shooting until is awesome if you put Lascannons / Missile launchers in your tac squads
Raven Guard - minus 1 to hit to help against alpha strikes
Don't use Terminators - Dark Eldar are geared up in every single way to deal with such a slow moving, low wound points sink.
Do use Razorbacks with Dual Assault Cannons. Sure they have loads of lances and Blasters etc but those dual AC are great at making a mess of T3 infantry and T5 vehicles.
Martel732 wrote: For what they do, Drukhari are pretty damn cheap.
Anti horde is very much a problem for this army and we hate kill point missions.
The shredder begs to differ - IMO most DE are taking way too many blaster and not enough shredder. Not being able to kill tanks later in the game might be a concern but when your whole armies is fast and flies you don't really need to worry about armor anymore at that point in the game - you can just keep them from shooting.
My DE list has 10 shredders and only 2 blasters on it's warriors for example. OFC all 3 archons have blasters and all my raiders have dark lances. I've found this to work best for the high hordes I expect to encounter. The ignore cover I get from flayed skull more than makes up for wounding on 4's instead of 3's. Infantry is no problem my friend.
I didn't think Archons could take Blasters anymore only Blast Pistols?
Martel732 wrote: For what they do, Drukhari are pretty damn cheap.
Anti horde is very much a problem for this army and we hate kill point missions.
The shredder begs to differ - IMO most DE are taking way too many blaster and not enough shredder. Not being able to kill tanks later in the game might be a concern but when your whole armies is fast and flies you don't really need to worry about armor anymore at that point in the game - you can just keep them from shooting.
My DE list has 10 shredders and only 2 blasters on it's warriors for example. OFC all 3 archons have blasters and all my raiders have dark lances. I've found this to work best for the high hordes I expect to encounter. The ignore cover I get from flayed skull more than makes up for wounding on 4's instead of 3's. Infantry is no problem my friend.
I didn't think Archons could take Blasters anymore only Blast Pistols?
They can take blasters just like razorbacks can take assault cannons. It's in the index.
The comparison between SM and Drukhari is silly. Drukhari are very tough for SM, it's pretty clear. But considering the army overall against any possible opponent they're far from being overpowered.
Not sure about tournaments since 3 turns games IMHO are not even real 40k games. I'd like to discuss data about regular matches with 5-7 turns. It's like saying that orks are doing well because they place decently at events, but the same lists are going to get tabled in regular games against the same lists they managed to defeat in tournaments.
Martel732 wrote: The over-the-top tendencies is hang over from 6/7th and now having to deal with crap like Drukhari.
I also was not referring to you. Not at all.
That literally the first time I've ever seen you say something that could be considered objectively correct. It's usually just hogwash and propaganda. Being right once doesn't validate all your other bitching, even a broken clock is right twice a day. And the fact that you needed to parade it like that speaks volumes of itself
