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Martel732 wrote:
It's on my list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Stalkers are a very nice tank, as it shares many properties of IG tanks.

I don't suppose I see that many IG autocannons, because the ignore LoS artillery is so much better.

I think a Russ punisher is probably the best heavy bolter platform I can think of. Well, baneblades get 10 of them too.

HWT are good vs scrubs like BA, but definitely don't stand up to good lists.

This actually makes the autocannon/heavy bolter paradigm harder to execuse than I thought even in a soup list.

Marine platforms for these weapons are typically straight garbage, like predators.

Just play forge world. Lots of FW stuff obliterates venoms. Sicarians/Leviathans/deredos

I fething hate resin. And their prices. And for the last 10 months, I was in a league that disallowed FW.

I too hate it.

Martel732 wrote:
In my experience, marines can't really afford to wound on 5's. Bolters are not much more effective vs raiders than any old T7 transport. Wjhen you get to Stalkers, now we are talking. But you still need mutiple 100+ point tanks to reliably down a sub 100 pt transport that the boards are calling "glass". Doesn't sound like glass.

I think that whatever marginal effectiveness gain some weaponry gains vs raiders is more than balanced out by 5++ and open topped.

A stalker with no marine aura buffs half-healths an 80 point raider. This is effectively causing 40 points of damage over the Stalker's 109 point cost, or 36.7% points return. Bear in mind targeting a 125 point dissie ravager this does up to 57.3% points return.

A dissie ravager, generally regarded among the most broken units in the dark eldar codex, firing at incredibly points-inefficient tactical marines out of cover, removes 43pts of marines a turn, or a 34.4% points return. Getting its full effectiveness gunning down its absolutely perfect target of Intercessors, it jumps up to a 47.7% points return.

It takes 9 bs3+ dark lance shots to take down a Stalker out of cover on average, or 11 disintegrators (33 shots). On Ravagers (again, arguably the most optimal platform for those weapons) that's a 23.7% points return for the dissies or a 25.9% points return for the dark lances.

From an uneducated standpoint, it would seem that a roughly equivalent points return up to about a twice as good points return on investment does seem to indicate a "glass cannon" effect.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically venoms should be t4. That would probably fix them.

No, they wouldnt be played and Venoms are not the problem, Ravagers and Grots are. IMO Venoms are still not very good, they do an average of 1.5 to MEQ or 3 to GEQ wounds a turn within Rapid Range and with re-roll 1 to hit with ignore cover.
You spend 75pts for that extra shot(s), with 10 of them for 750pts you are killing 15 MEQs or 31 GEQ's... is that worth 750pts?

So tell me how that is OP?

No, it doesn't half-health it. It only does about 4 wounds on average. 6*.833*.6666*.666*2= 4.44.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically venoms should be t4. That would probably fix them.

No, they wouldnt be played and Venoms are not the problem, Ravagers and Grots are. IMO Venoms are still not very good, they do an average of 1.5 to MEQ or 3 to GEQ wounds a turn within Rapid Range and with re-roll 1 to hit with ignore cover.
You spend 75pts for that extra shot(s), with 10 of them for 750pts you are killing 15 MEQs or 31 GEQ's... is that worth 750pts?

So tell me how that is OP?

If it wasn't opentopped - it would be terrible. Since it can carry 5 cheapo kabs and more than double it's fire it becomes problematic. Super efficient MSU have always been the best units in the game.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it doesn't half-health it. It only does about 4 wounds on average. 6*.833*.6666*.666*2= 4.44.

You're right - I had it in my head raiders were 9 wounds, they have 10.

Vs dissie raider - 32.6% points return
Vs dissie ravager - 50.9% points return.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for the bad math, I'll edit when I'm not on my phone.

It would seem that the most undercoated op gun platform in the game gets a worse point return firing at what is arguably its most optimal targets (intercessors) than this other platform from the worst army in the game gets firing back at it.

the_scotsman wrote:


A stalker with no marine aura buffs half-healths an 80 point raider.

I'm still on team Stormhawk. 170 for Icarus, Skyhammer, and TAC.

6 * .833 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 4.4
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5

37.6% efficient, puts it down to 2 wounds for a 6" move, and is cheaper than 2 stalkers by 58 points. Every marine list should have one of them right now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically venoms should be t4. That would probably fix them.

No, they wouldnt be played and Venoms are not the problem, Ravagers and Grots are. IMO Venoms are still not very good, they do an average of 1.5 to MEQ or 3 to GEQ wounds a turn within Rapid Range and with re-roll 1 to hit with ignore cover.
You spend 75pts for that extra shot(s), with 10 of them for 750pts you are killing 15 MEQs or 31 GEQ's... is that worth 750pts?

So tell me how that is OP?

If it wasn't opentopped - it would be terrible. Since it can carry 5 cheapo kabs and more than double it's fire it becomes problematic. Super efficient MSU have always been the best units in the game.

Oh wow now you are 1050pts to kill 27 MEQ or 58 GEQ within Rapid fire range (so they are also within that range) if your Kabals are out of double tap range (50 kabals) thats 6/12 dead MEQ/GEQ without upgrades
So on turn 1 a DE player with 1050pts of Venoms and Kabals will kill 21 Marines, b.c they cant shoot vehicles.... 1050pts to kill 336pts of guys or 200-250pts of IG/Cultist/Horrors/Tzaangors.

If you kill 27 meq in a single turn with half your army- you won the game. Just pack up. GG

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


A stalker with no marine aura buffs half-healths an 80 point raider.

I'm still on team Stormhawk. 170 for Icarus, Skyhammer, and TAC.

6 * .833 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 4.4
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5

37.6% efficient, puts it down to 2 wounds for a 6" move, and is cheaper than 2 stalkers by 58 points. Every marine list should have one of them right now.

AT this point, why not both?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:


A stalker with no marine aura buffs half-healths an 80 point raider.

I'm still on team Stormhawk. 170 for Icarus, Skyhammer, and TAC.

6 * .833 * .666 * .666 * 2 = 4.4
12 * .666 * .666 * .666 = 3.5

37.6% efficient, puts it down to 2 wounds for a 6" move, and is cheaper than 2 stalkers by 58 points. Every marine list should have one of them right now.

yeah for an army that already sucks - you cant bring a deciated antiflyer. That hits on 5's when there isn't a flyer around. But hey - at least it's rerolling it's 6+ save on a 1 when it get hits with a lascannon or can't even reroll hits save because it doesn't get one when it gets hit with a darklance.

 Xenomancers wrote:

yeah for an army that already sucks - you cant bring a deciated antiflyer. That hits on 5's when there isn't a flyer around. But hey - at least it's rerolling it's 6+ save on a 1 when it get hits with a lascannon or can't even reroll hits save because it doesn't get one when it gets hit with a darklance.

Psh. The TAC does just fine. Also there is barely a list without flyers. Hive Tyrants. Enlightened. Drones. Banana Bikes. Hemlocks.

In fact Eldar flyers (true fliers) are not in short supply at the London GT:
https://insighthammer.com/index.php?/topic/4-london-gt/&do=findComment&comment=13

It has -1 to hit and rerolling 1s is way better than absolutely nothing.

Dakkapred vs Dissie raider: 26% points return. 25.7% for a last/auto pred, so whatever you judge a better tac option there.
Autocannon mortis dread vs Dissie Raider: 28% points return
Stormtalon with anti air missiles on the move: 28.5% points return.
Twin Assback vs Dissie Raider: 24.9% points return.

Dissie Ravager vs twin assault cannon razorback: 30.0% points return.
Dissie Ravager vs Rhino: 19% points return.

This is units from the worst codex compared to units from what is argued to be the best gunboat in the game, both firing into standard transports.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you kill 27 meq in a single turn with half your army- you won the game. Just pack up. GG

Its 27 if you move within 12" of them.... thats not going to happen turn 1, and having 15+ drops DE will more likely go 2nd, if you cant kill 2-3 venoms turn 1 then you lost the game out of bad list building.

You can bring a dedicated anti flyer if you think every meta list is going to include units with fly. Every Eldar, every Tau, every list that includes custodes, every chaos soup list...everything but guard gunline and, well, Marines that don't bring flyers.

Are you seeing a ton of guard sans allies with fly?

Anti-fly is a whole lot less restrictive than the old anti-flier.

the_scotsman wrote:
You can bring a dedicated anti flyer if you think every meta list is going to include units with fly. Every Eldar, every Tau, every list that includes custodes, every chaos soup list...everything but guard gunline and, well, Marines that don't bring flyers.

Are you seeing a ton of guard sans allies with fly?

Anti-fly is a whole lot less restrictive than the old anti-flier.

Dark Talons. Darkshroud. Land Speeders. IG gunlines are really rare. And if everyone brings a Stormhawk you can have a Stormhawk fight! YMMV depending on your local meta.

Shining Spears
Xiphons
Death Company w/ Jump
Stormboyz

Tons of stuff out there.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
If you kill 27 meq in a single turn with half your army- you won the game. Just pack up. GG

Its 27 if you move within 12" of them.... thats not going to happen turn 1, and having 15+ drops DE will more likely go 2nd, if you cant kill 2-3 venoms turn 1 then you lost the game out of bad list building.

How the heck is it not happening turn 1...they move 19 inches...It's unlikely they wont be assaulting turn 1 ether. Plus - a mix of venoms and raiders works best anyways. You don't need 10 venoms - this army has an average number of drops and plus - going first is close so close to 50% regardless of your number of drops it really isn't even a factor. I learned this playing tau with 20+ drop - it just doesn't matter.

Some Marine players from Barnyard

#1 SCDE, Jump DA
#6 SCDE
#13 Seraphim, SG
#15 SCDE
#17 no flyers
#24 DC Jump

Dark Eldar is a better codex than Space Marines.

But I agree that "3 ravagers, maybe 2-3 RWJFs, 2-3 units of Grots and a veritable horde of Kabalites (in boats or otherwise - I think boats aren't strictly needed since your entire army is a target priority)" is a world away from "I grabbed some random units in order to make up some patrols and threw them on the table".

I do think Ravagers buffed under a dual reroll 1s aura are top tier because they have a very solid effectiveness versus a huge range of targets in the game. If the codex had come out earlier you might have seen armies with 8 of them. As it is now they only get 3. They are nice, but its not the same level as skew as might have been. In 1k points its nasty. In 2k points its starting to get diluted.

Dis Cannons will most likely go up to 20pts, its only 5pts but if you take 13-15 of them that still 65-75pts, thats a full 1 less Venom. Grots will go up 2-3 points as well.

We are going to have another match. He has new minis and I have not a big selection. This is all the firepower I have. I have now a Stalker. More or less I Will play again as Ultramarine so that in fall of being charged and survive, go back in my turn and shot again (-1 but better than fight in melee). The good news is also It seems that our small W40K comunity will earn a new player (he is thinking bettween necrons and thousand donde)and maybe a friend is coming back where we live. But at the moment this is the list for our second game 1000point with objectives.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [65 PL, 997pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines

Gametype: Matched

+ HQ +

Captain [5 PL, 89pts]: Master-crafted boltgun, Power fist, The Armour Indomitus, Warlord

Lieutenants [4 PL, 67pts]
. Lieutenant: Master-crafted boltgun, Power sword

Sergeant Chronus [8 PL, 157pts]
. Stalker: Hunter-killer missile, Storm bolter, Two Icarus Stormcannons

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 95pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle
. 4x Intercessor
. Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword

Scout Squad [6 PL, 75pts]
. Scout Sergeant: Chainsword, Sniper rifle
. 4x Scout w/Sniper Rifle: 4x Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 103pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Missile launcher

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 99pts]
. 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon

+ Elites +

Venerable Dreadnought [8 PL, 165pts]: Twin autocannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Heavy Support +

Devastator Squad [11 PL, 147pts]: Armorium Cherub
. 2x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Boltgun/Bolt pistol
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine w/Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter

++ Total: [65 PL, 997pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I won. Explain the game shortly.

He seize iniciative. First turn, first shots, first 5 saves, 5 misses, 5 first devastators killed. Big part of my plan in 3 minutes,bye.
At the end of turn 2 he was winning 5 to 2.
Then, turn 3 he missed a couple of blasters and then my Warlord... he scored ( with one wound left after surviving one combad round against Sucubu, Drakan and 4 wytches) Slay Warlord, kill a character and the pluss D3 of prioritary order, where I got a 5 in the roll. 5 points. Turn 4 I got 3 more points and I was leading by 5 points remaining my Stalker, my Dread, my Warlord, two scouts, 3 intercessors. He gives up.

Thank you all for the Stalker advice. He was surprised. This time the Ven Dread worked very well and also the intercesor did a great job. I think Sgt. Chronus with his 2+ for shooting helped a lot for the few point he cost.

Thanks again for your advices.

Congrats! Here's to more wins in the future!

Dark Eldar can certainly field a lot of bodies and a lot of firepower but ultimately the key to victory is to take down their vehicles as quickly as possible as their speed and the fly keyword is the greatest strength they have.

Chapter tactics you want to consider either:
Ultramarines - stops those pesky vehicles locking you in combat and stopping you from shooting
Salamanders - you need those vehicles gone - the re-roll for 1 hit and 1 wound per shooting until is awesome if you put Lascannons / Missile launchers in your tac squads
Raven Guard - minus 1 to hit to help against alpha strikes

Don't use Terminators - Dark Eldar are geared up in every single way to deal with such a slow moving, low wound points sink.
Do use Razorbacks with Dual Assault Cannons. Sure they have loads of lances and Blasters etc but those dual AC are great at making a mess of T3 infantry and T5 vehicles.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For what they do, Drukhari are pretty damn cheap.

Anti horde is very much a problem for this army and we hate kill point missions.

The shredder begs to differ - IMO most DE are taking way too many blaster and not enough shredder. Not being able to kill tanks later in the game might be a concern but when your whole armies is fast and flies you don't really need to worry about armor anymore at that point in the game - you can just keep them from shooting.

My DE list has 10 shredders and only 2 blasters on it's warriors for example. OFC all 3 archons have blasters and all my raiders have dark lances. I've found this to work best for the high hordes I expect to encounter. The ignore cover I get from flayed skull more than makes up for wounding on 4's instead of 3's. Infantry is no problem my friend.

I didn't think Archons could take Blasters anymore only Blast Pistols?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For what they do, Drukhari are pretty damn cheap.

Anti horde is very much a problem for this army and we hate kill point missions.

The shredder begs to differ - IMO most DE are taking way too many blaster and not enough shredder. Not being able to kill tanks later in the game might be a concern but when your whole armies is fast and flies you don't really need to worry about armor anymore at that point in the game - you can just keep them from shooting.

My DE list has 10 shredders and only 2 blasters on it's warriors for example. OFC all 3 archons have blasters and all my raiders have dark lances. I've found this to work best for the high hordes I expect to encounter. The ignore cover I get from flayed skull more than makes up for wounding on 4's instead of 3's. Infantry is no problem my friend.

I didn't think Archons could take Blasters anymore only Blast Pistols?

They can take blasters just like razorbacks can take assault cannons. It's in the index.

The comparison between SM and Drukhari is silly. Drukhari are very tough for SM, it's pretty clear. But considering the army overall against any possible opponent they're far from being overpowered.

Not sure about tournaments since 3 turns games IMHO are not even real 40k games. I'd like to discuss data about regular matches with 5-7 turns. It's like saying that orks are doing well because they place decently at events, but the same lists are going to get tabled in regular games against the same lists they managed to defeat in tournaments.

Martel732 wrote:
The over-the-top tendencies is hang over from 6/7th and now having to deal with crap like Drukhari.

I also was not referring to you. Not at all.

That literally the first time I've ever seen you say something that could be considered objectively correct. It's usually just hogwash and propaganda. Being right once doesn't validate all your other bitching, even a broken clock is right twice a day. And the fact that you needed to parade it like that speaks volumes of itself