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Martel732 wrote:
It still takes a lot of heavy bolters to plow through a raider. I don't think your typical marine list can count on this approach. 45 heavy bolter shots, to be precise. Yeah, it takes 90 to kill that Rhino, but 45 is still a LOT. Raiders are great. They also have the option for -1 to be hit, so that makes it 60 shots. That's not happening.

He was talking about putting TAC instead of TLC.

With reroll 1s that is...

12 * .777 * .666 * .666 = 4.1

A TLC on the other hand is...

2 * .777 * .666 * .666 * 3.5 = 2.4

So you COULD take the TLC regardless and hope for failed invulns and go for big damage, but the margins are so slim on that. Though, like I said, keep the TLC for take all comers, but that isn't relevant here.

And it gets worse for TLC with -1 to hit since the standard deviation will be very high with so fewer dice.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.

Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!

A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.

Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.

Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It still takes a lot of heavy bolters to plow through a raider. I don't think your typical marine list can count on this approach. 45 heavy bolter shots, to be precise. Yeah, it takes 90 to kill that Rhino, but 45 is still a LOT. Raiders are great. They also have the option for -1 to be hit, so that makes it 60 shots. That's not happening.

He was talking about putting TAC instead of TLC.

With reroll 1s that is...

12 * .777 * .666 * .666 = 4.1

A TLC on the other hand is...

2 * .777 * .666 * .666 * 3.5 = 2.4

So you COULD take the TLC regardless and hope for failed invulns and go for big damage, but the margins are so slim on that. Though, like I said, keep the TLC for take all comers, but that isn't relevant here.

And it gets worse for TLC with -1 to hit since the standard deviation will be very high with so fewer dice.

Yeah, twin autocannon would be 100% the best choice. Only reason I was talking about twin HBs is because I know the actual kit comes with that option - twin HB would not be an optimal choice compared to the autocannon but it would at least not be a total waste of points like the lascannon.

Op had nearly enough points sunk into those lascannons and other unnecessary gear (like sgt chronus, second captain instead of lieutenant, tac squad heavy weapons) to flat out purchase an extra stalker and pop it in at 1k points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

Oh god no. Drukhari is the real deal. They won't be meta dominant because it's pretty simple to tailor them out, but they're high tier to be sure.

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?

I'll corroborate this a little.

Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.

Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.

Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?

I'll corroborate this a little.

Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.

Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.

Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37

Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.

I've been tracking the results of the ITC events of the last 3 weekends. It is true that Drukhari are winning quite a few games, but not to the point of calling them OP. CWE are still the ones getting the highest number of wins, followed by Thousand sons, Drukhari, Tyranids, Necrons, Astra Militarum, Tau, Custodes, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Demons, CSM, Death Guard...

In general they are really close to each other, there is no faction truly dominating, but is true that SM are not getting a fair share of wins.

I would point more to the SM codex needing some work more than Drukhari requiring a nerf. I just played against them with my nids, and while i did lose, it was due a couple of mistakes i made, i didn't feel outpowered by them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?

I'll corroborate this a little.

Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.

Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.

Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37

Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.

Pre-FAQ.

Spoletta wrote:
I've been tracking the results of the ITC events of the last 3 weekends. It is true that Drukhari are winning quite a few games, but not to the point of calling them OP. CWE are still the ones getting the highest number of wins, followed by Thousand sons, Drukhari, Tyranids, Necrons, Astra Militarum, Tau, Custodes, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Demons, CSM, Death Guard...

In general they are really close to each other, there is no faction truly dominating, but is true that SM are not getting a fair share of wins.

I would point more to the SM codex needing some work more than Drukhari requiring a nerf. I just played against them with my nids, and while i did lose, it was due a couple of mistakes i made, i didn't feel outpowered by them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?

I'll corroborate this a little.

Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.

Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.

Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37

Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.

Pre-FAQ.

Wow - didn't know that was pre FAQ - seems absolutely absurd because it was literally...yesterday. Faq been out a month already. In any case I'm not saying they are the best army - only that they are a top army. They are not mid tier. Space marines - literally the worst army in the game. They were worse than most index armies.

To be fair, CWE severely punishes Drukhari for bringing disintegrators. The wave serpent messes with a of math.

Lots of heavy bolters can do the trick.
Try to keep them at arms length.

the_scotsman wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.

Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!

A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.

Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.

How many autocannons you see in competitive games? Stop pretending to be serious with these bad examples

KurtAngle2 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.

Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!

A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.

Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.

How many autocannons you see in competitive games? Stop pretending to be serious with these bad examples

If Dark Eldar keep appearing in competitive environments then you'll start to see a lot of them, because stuff like autocannons and assault cannons completely wreck their day.

 Burnage wrote:

If Dark Eldar keep appearing in competitive environments then you'll start to see a lot of them, because stuff like autocannons and assault cannons completely wreck their day.

And then GW will see them wrecking DE and increase the points costs for them untill they are as unplayable in a competitive setting as everything else in the marine codex

Quite frankly Imho marine armies without FW models belong in a display cabinet not the table, if your playing 8th edition matched play.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.

Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!

A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.

Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.

How many autocannons you see in competitive games? Stop pretending to be serious with these bad examples

A lot nowadays. I just got done meta-analyzing 300 lists for an upcoming post-FAQ GT because it was the first time to my knowledge such a large amount of current list data was available for competitive play. With Necrons and Drukhari added in to competitive play as well as Custodes Biker captains (who also feature an invuln save exactly one lower than their armor save and the Fly keyword) a lot of people seem to be using autocannons as a standard anti-tank option.

the_scotsman wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Raiders are actually more durable than Rhinos vs most AT fire. They are NOT paper thin. You need SPECIALIZED weapons to take advantage of the lower T.

Exactly this.
Venom are 65 pts and far more durable than Rhinos against AT weapons due to -1 to Hit AND 5++...oh and triple/quadruple the firepower with Cult/Cabal/Coven to apply, balanced!

A venom is functionally identical to a rhino vs lascannons (7.66 to kill a rhino, 7.69 to kill a venom). It takes less than half as many Auto cannon shots to take one down.

Bear in mind here I'm not arguing drukhari aren't way better than Marines in general but god damn folks, try checking your math a bit when you make claims.

Ok, do the math with HB's, near a captain at least.

Venom vs HB's with re-roll 1's to hit and -1 to be shot: 31 shots to kill a Venom, 37 shots as BH (10-13 HB's)
Rhino vs HB's with re-roll 1's: 78 shots to kill a Rhino (23-24 HB's)

WOW... its almost like it takes double the shots.. hmm....

Different vehicles are better at different things, you cant say 1 is better than the other b.c 1 weapon is weaker than the other compare to one. Rhino also has 10 transport, Venom has 5, Rhino can get -1 to hit for a turn as well. You cant compare them in a vacuum with 1 weapon.

IMO The Rhino needs to be slightly cheaper for sure, almost no one plays with them and there is a reason why, they are over costed. Venoms are not undercosted, they are just now playable for what they do. Personally i dont even like Venoms i think they are a waste of points and my comp list only take 1 so i can have a spot for my 2 Succubus.

What is slightly undercosted for DE are Grotesques, they are some of my favorites and i would hate for them to go up in points, but i think they will go up by 2-3pts soon, Ravagers might go up 10pts as well.

Maybe Space Marines units needs another point check. Maybe the weapons . Maybe the entire faction. Probably once all Codex are out there will be a Big FAQ that adjust the entire game. We will see what´s coming out from tournaments.

Okay, I ordered online an Stalker. If it arrives before I play again fine, if not I will play with the new knowledge I adquired today with all you. I get also today a new dread, 10 more tactical, 5 veterans and a Rhino for a cheap interchange ( Sisters from my old collection).

Think next battle will be better.

Alex_85 wrote:
Maybe Space Marines units needs another point check. Maybe the weapons . Maybe the entire faction. Probably once all Codex are out there will be a Big FAQ that adjust the entire game. We will see what´s coming out from tournaments.

Okay, I ordered online an Stalker. If it arrives before I play again fine, if not I will play with the new knowledge I adquired today with all you. I get also today a new dread, 10 more tactical, 5 veterans and a Rhino for a cheap interchange ( Sisters from my old collection).

Think next battle will be better.

Good luck!

the_scotsman wrote:

In the worst case, assuming your opponent decides to wait it out and pull out the strat against the devs, you only commit one gun at a time, so you start with your missile launcher, pop your Signum to keep yourself at 2 to hit rerolling 1s with the flakk missile, and then re-evaluate afterwards whether it's worth trying to bull through whatever that Raider has left or whether you want to swap targets and try to down or hurt the other raider with the 3 HB devs and the Dread.

Note that you can't reevaluate mid unit even when using a strategem. So those 3 HB Devs have to shoot the target they declared before the flak missile was resolved.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
I've been tracking the results of the ITC events of the last 3 weekends. It is true that Drukhari are winning quite a few games, but not to the point of calling them OP. CWE are still the ones getting the highest number of wins, followed by Thousand sons, Drukhari, Tyranids, Necrons, Astra Militarum, Tau, Custodes, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Demons, CSM, Death Guard...

In general they are really close to each other, there is no faction truly dominating, but is true that SM are not getting a fair share of wins.

I would point more to the SM codex needing some work more than Drukhari requiring a nerf. I just played against them with my nids, and while i did lose, it was due a couple of mistakes i made, i didn't feel outpowered by them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Dear kurt angle, the drukhari codex is fun to play and quite good but the dark elves are now solid mid tier, not an overpowered army. I'm not execting many dukhari victories at highly competitive games.

Simply the spam of dis cannons ruins SM more than other armies, especially primaris.

They are high tier man. What metric are you using to call them mid tier - they are placing high right out the gate at tournaments but I hardly think that matters that much? I think I've caught you saying marines are also mid tier are you seriously claiming marines and DE are in the same tier?

I'll corroborate this a little.

Best I could find for ITC is a 5 round where DE took 2nd, but only 14 people. I can't see anyone's list, but the DE player. Huge solid wins vs marines.

Though this is incomplete information so don't use it as the basis for everything else.

Win vs DE +9
Win vs Thousand Sons +45
Loss vs AM -4
Win vs Nids +7
Win vs UM +37

Check out the warhammer world GT final.
3 DE in the top 10.

Pre-FAQ.

Wow - didn't know that was pre FAQ - seems absolutely absurd because it was literally...yesterday. Faq been out a month already. In any case I'm not saying they are the best army - only that they are a top army. They are not mid tier. Space marines - literally the worst army in the game. They were worse than most index armies.

A better indication might be the Alamo GT from a couple weeks ago now. 80+ players and Drukhari 1st and 2nd.

I suspect that part of the problem is that Drukhari are quite different to most other armies in the way they play and we haven't seen much from them for years now in competitive play. I suspect that there's quite a few tournement players out there that's never faced them before, or at least very rarely faced them, and at the moment aren't sure about the best ways to deal with them.

Use both hellfire shells and flakk missiles to load them up with mortal wounds. This way you mitigate some of their iv saves advantage. It costs cp but its worth it.
Also use frag and krak grenades whenever you have the chance. They are usefull vs de.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One de list i faced had 21 dark lances on stuff with fly. And mandrakes(?) that spams mortal wounds. It's almost impossible to not get tabled vs that with my marines.

 Imateria wrote:

A better indication might be the Alamo GT from a couple weeks ago now. 80+ players and Drukhari 1st and 2nd.

I suspect that part of the problem is that Drukhari are quite different to most other armies in the way they play and we haven't seen much from them for years now in competitive play. I suspect that there's quite a few tournement players out there that's never faced them before, or at least very rarely faced them, and at the moment aren't sure about the best ways to deal with them.

People had a week on that to adjust lists if they were using the new FAQ. FAQ was out 4/19. Lists due 4/25. There is little chance many of those people were able to process the changes in that amount of time.

That isn't to say DE aren't strong, but that this might not be a good representative sample.

It is clear to me though now that armies with significant amounts of flying units are showing up that anti-air should be making a strong comeback. Stormhawks, stalkers, hydras, etc. Tau and Eldar are prime targets with a large player base.

I saw the stalker stats.....wooooow!

If it doesn´t arrive before we play again....maybe...maybe I say the rhino is an Stalker. But just maybe. We are friends jajajaja.

regards

Alex_85 wrote:
I saw the stalker stats.....wooooow!

If it doesn´t arrive before we play again....maybe...maybe I say the rhino is an Stalker. But just maybe. We are friends jajajaja.

regards

Yea it's nice against flyers. I still prefer the Stormhawk as it can pop a raider in one go with TAC, Icarus and Skyhammer (for more points of course).

Ice_can wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

If Dark Eldar keep appearing in competitive environments then you'll start to see a lot of them, because stuff like autocannons and assault cannons completely wreck their day.

And then GW will see them wrecking DE and increase the points costs for them untill they are as unplayable in a competitive setting as everything else in the marine codex

Quite frankly Imho marine armies without FW models belong in a display cabinet not the table, if your playing 8th edition matched play.

???

Because GW have always had a soft spot for DE, and have made sure they were looked after???

 Imateria wrote:


I suspect that part of the problem is that Drukhari are quite different to most other armies in the way they play and we haven't seen much from them for years now in competitive play. I suspect that there's quite a few tournement players out there that's never faced them before, or at least very rarely faced them, and at the moment aren't sure about the best ways to deal with them.

It's exactly this. Not many DE players around and many of them don't play competitive lists.

We'll see after a few months if drukhari are really that good.

Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.

Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.

Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.

The thing is tho, DE has some clear weakness, if tournaments dont play with those that doesnt mean DE is insanely strong, it means they are Scissor in a Paper's world.

I still stand by my 1st post, DE isnt the problem, honestly SM are just weak atm, over costed due to a couple things in the codex that dont scale well with each other and are hard to balance.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Maybe I have special skills of prediction but I can pretty much tell you how strong an army will be just by looking at their units/ weapons/ and how much they cost.

Maybe because these are the only things that matter when determining if an army is strong on not.

The thing is tho, DE has some clear weakness, if tournaments dont play with those that doesnt mean DE is insanely strong, it means they are Scissor in a Paper's world.

I still stand by my 1st post, DE isnt the problem, honestly SM are just weak atm, over costed due to a couple things in the codex that dont scale well with each other and are hard to balance.

I totally agree with you - they aren't over the top compared to craftworlds/nids/AM+soup. Space marines are just trash - it's time people just admit it. Getting tired of repeating myself. Give people like the OP an honest assessment - stop expecting to beat nuclear subs with diesels. You will fail every-time.

Also - it really doesn't have a weakness ether. They can be tough with covens/ have insane shooting and mobility with kabals / cults can tie up expensive units for pennies.

No, Drukhari don't have any real exploitable weaknesses at the moment. Being cheap trumps all.