Hey all just curious as to why there hasn't been more complaining about the imperial knight codex. When the IG codex first came out, you couldn't go anywhere on this forum without being bombarded with constant complaints about how OP it was. Heck there are still threads complaining about it running around. Now the most OP codex of the edition comes out annnnnddddd.... next to nothing? Is it because Knights are cool? More people on here play them? It just seems odd that forum known for complaining isn't complaining about something so strong. Should I just be patient and wait a couple months for the new codex hype to die down? My faith in reality is just being tested is all.
Because IG was already super freakin OP and then the codex didn't help what so ever. Imperial Knights are a niche army that can be easily counter-built, since you literally just need to bring anti-tank. Stop trying to fish for anger.
Full disclosure: i play knights. I keep hearing the "just bring heavy weapons!" excuse, from people, but yet to see any army actually be successful against knights with that approach (aside from other knight lists). Examples include but are not limited to, triple max squads of obliterators lists, triple max squads of hiveguard lists, 9 dakkabots list, and triple plagueburst crawlers and bloat drone lists. All get crushed against a strong knight list. Maybe hordes can do it, since knights have a harder time killing a lot of stuff, but its still possible for them to do so. Dark elder might have had a shot, except helverins perfectly counter their vehicles. Eldar get crushed, as knights out fire-power and out durability them. If anyone has an actual list that has had success against knights I'd love to hear of it, because so far winning has been too easy with them.
Yeah I'm sure there are top tournement lists that give them a good beating, but they definitely seem like a gatekeeper army and a bit of a noob stomper / I win button.
There is a certain level of competitiveness that is achieved by simply taking 2000 points of knights and popping rotate ion shields each turn, and I think it probably beats a good 50% of players you'd find with random lists in pick up games.
Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.
Salt donkey wrote: Full disclosure: i play knights. I keep hearing the "just bring heavy weapons!" excuse, from people, but yet to see any army actually be successful against knights with that approach (aside from other knight lists). Examples include but are not limited to, triple max squads of obliterators lists, triple max squads of hiveguard lists, 9 dakkabots list, and triple plagueburst crawlers and bloat drone lists. All get crushed against a strong knight list. Maybe hordes can do it, since knights have a harder time killing a lot of stuff, but its still possible for them to do so. Dark elder might have had a shot, except helverins perfectly counter their vehicles. Eldar get crushed, as knights out fire-power and out durability them. If anyone has an actual list that has had success against knights I'd love to hear of it, because so far winning has been too easy with them.
I've found success with my Lord of Skulls backed up by Bloodletters of all things. 2+ to hit with a blob, 5+ to wound, give or take 50-60 attacks that potentially deal 2 instead of just 1 damage, and since it's a power sword against no invuln in melee, it CHEWS through their save. Also, i've found that Vindicators are SUPER cost effective against knights. I'm not saying bring 5 vindicators, but at 125 points base, they are very equipt to handle super heavy models, but not much else
w1zard wrote: Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.
Nah. I remember Leaf Blower changing the meta for Guard and the game, IG have been top tier for ages.
And if people are seeing Knight Hate threads, they aren’t looking. There are quite a few “Are Knights friendly?” threads to not see the hate oozing in some of the posts.
Thanks guys I think you all have done a good job answering my question. The clear quote that stands out to me is "Because IG was already super freakin OP and then the codex didn't help what so ever." Because people had already experienced IG being super good before the codex was released they just expected the worst when the codex was actually dropped and offered pretty much offered exclusive improvements. Knights weren't op before this codex, so people haven't gotten already gotten sick of being crushed by them. That and it appears many on here do indeed play knights. Guess I'll just have to wait a little while for the complaint threads to rise in mass then. Thanks again for the replies!
w1zard wrote: Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.
This is 100% true. The second a guardsman kills anything it the “no guardsman can kill x” syndrome.its why the custod with guard mixed in always gets classified under guard hate. People don’t mentally mind the image of the finest soldiers in the galaxy killing their beloved x.... but the second a las gun takes them out it’s an issue
I think it might have more to do with the way guard feels when it's OP. You either get blown off of the board while they just stand there, they drop in and plasma you, or you have to chew through 200 dudes mobbing you.
Salt donkey wrote: Hey all just curious as to why there hasn't been more complaining about the imperial knight codex. When the IG codex first came out, you couldn't go anywhere on this forum without being bombarded with constant complaints about how OP it was. Heck there are still threads complaining about it running around. Now the most OP codex of the edition comes out annnnnddddd.... next to nothing? Is it because Knights are cool? More people on here play them? It just seems odd that forum known for complaining isn't complaining about something so strong. Should I just be patient and wait a couple months for the new codex hype to die down? My faith in reality is just being tested is all.
Or the IG codex was more OP when it was released...You think knights are OP? Dark eldar can wipe floor with them as I was painfully taught yesterday. They are few in numbers making playing objectives hard. Cheap chaff is something they don't have really good solution. Hell even orks have nice tool to piss off knights in form of 30 grots creating 60" wide "you shall not pass" line. Knights have no point efficient way to get rid of those...Yes killing ain't problem but that is investing ridiculous amount of points and in turn limited game that means they will struggle to kill all orks. They would struggle anyway but prevent all those knights charging to stomp hordes and they will struggle more.
CP wise they struggle as well.
They are more likely to be seen as part of imperial soup rather than army of their own.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: Yeah I'm sure there are top tournement lists that give them a good beating, but they definitely seem like a gatekeeper army and a bit of a noob stomper / I win button.
There is a certain level of competitiveness that is achieved by simply taking 2000 points of knights and popping rotate ion shields each turn, and I think it probably beats a good 50% of players you'd find with random lists in pick up games.
You realize that ion shield protects only one knight a turn? And you aren't forced to shoot at that? Key to deal with that ion shield. Start with your least important weapon against which strategem is useful. On extreme example for example lascannon rather than volcano cannon. Fire at knight. If it uses rotate ion shield? Then you will switch all the rest of anti-tank against OTHER knight. You might have "wasted" lascannon by putting few wounds to target you don't then concentrate more this turn(but it could be saved by inv save, not neccessarily even with rotate ion shield, and damage is still left for future turn) but then everything else goes to other knight which doesn't benefit from rotate ion shields.
Either he pops it and you do above or he waits for you to commit giving you plenty of firepower to shoot without bumbed invulnerable save.
Worst you can do is start with volcano cannon right away. If you do then you deserve to lose the game due to playing it horribly bad. Nobody deserves to win a game if they make such an attrocious tactical mistakes. I don't expect to win with any of my armies if I do and if I do win it is then either OP list or dice luck being so skewed it's pathetic. Either way won't feel like a win.
Salt donkey wrote: Hey all just curious as to why there hasn't been more complaining about the imperial knight codex. When the IG codex first came out, you couldn't go anywhere on this forum without being bombarded with constant complaints about how OP it was. Heck there are still threads complaining about it running around. Now the most OP codex of the edition comes out annnnnddddd.... next to nothing? Is it because Knights are cool? More people on here play them? It just seems odd that forum known for complaining isn't complaining about something so strong. Should I just be patient and wait a couple months for the new codex hype to die down? My faith in reality is just being tested is all.
Or the IG codex was more OP when it was released...You think knights are OP? Dark eldar can wipe floor with them as I was painfully taught yesterday. They are few in numbers making playing objectives hard. Cheap chaff is something they don't have really good solution. Hell even orks have nice tool to piss off knights in form of 30 grots creating 60" wide "you shall not pass" line. Knights have no point efficient way to get rid of those...Yes killing ain't problem but that is investing ridiculous amount of points and in turn limited game that means they will struggle to kill all orks. They would struggle anyway but prevent all those knights charging to stomp hordes and they will struggle more.
CP wise they struggle as well.
They are more likely to be seen as part of imperial soup rather than army of their own.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: Yeah I'm sure there are top tournement lists that give them a good beating, but they definitely seem like a gatekeeper army and a bit of a noob stomper / I win button.
There is a certain level of competitiveness that is achieved by simply taking 2000 points of knights and popping rotate ion shields each turn, and I think it probably beats a good 50% of players you'd find with random lists in pick up games.
You realize that ion shield protects only one knight a turn? And you aren't forced to shoot at that? Key to deal with that ion shield. Start with your least important weapon against which strategem is useful. On extreme example for example lascannon rather than volcano cannon. Fire at knight. If it uses rotate ion shield? Then you will switch all the rest of anti-tank against OTHER knight. You might have "wasted" lascannon by putting few wounds to target you don't then concentrate more this turn(but it could be saved by inv save, not neccessarily even with rotate ion shield, and damage is still left for future turn) but then everything else goes to other knight which doesn't benefit from rotate ion shields.
Either he pops it and you do above or he waits for you to commit giving you plenty of firepower to shoot without bumbed invulnerable save.
Worst you can do is start with volcano cannon right away. If you do then you deserve to lose the game due to playing it horribly bad. Nobody deserves to win a game if they make such an attrocious tactical mistakes. I don't expect to win with any of my armies if I do and if I do win it is then either OP list or dice luck being so skewed it's pathetic. Either way won't feel like a win.
I understand the concept, yes. But I'm also not sure it's quite that simple in every situation. Sometimes I'd imagine you really need to kill a particular knight. Let's say they have one knight charging you, and 3 holding back some. Do you just ignore the one in front of you if it has a 4++ and rotates? I think it's possible as the knight player to make your opponent make hard choices, though not impossible ones by any means.
My only point is that in general there aren't any bad units in the knight codex, and that your average fluffy game store pick up game type army is unlikely to have the tools to take care of 4+ knights.
jcd386 wrote: I understand the concept, yes. But I'm also not sure it's quite that simple in every situation. Sometimes I'd imagine you really need to kill a particular knight. Let's say they have one knight charging you, and 3 holding back some. Do you just ignore the one in front of you if it has a 4++ and rotates? I think it's possible as the knight player to make your opponent make hard choices, though not impossible ones by any means.
My only point is that in general there aren't any bad units in the knight codex, and that your average fluffy game store pick up game type army is unlikely to have the tools to take care of 4+ knights.
You can then wrap the charging knight with some chaff and have it delay that way. Remember knight cannot move over your infantry except falling back so have some screens and knight will find itself unable to charge what it wants.
Also why you think you NEED to kill all knights? Remember these things called "objectives"? If games ends up by wipeouting that's bad as well.
And maybe they don't have bad units but that just means internal balance is for a change decent(though paladin and errant are pretty bad actually). But as you can win against them that's good. What? You want codex where you have good AND bad units? People then just spam good units and ignore bad ones and external balance isn't helped. "Hey that codex has bad units! It's not broken!". Well umm...No. Broken comes from the leading edge of codex which then is spammed. IGCP battery isn't any less powerful because IG codex has banewolf in it.
Martel732 wrote: Predators were obsolete when the codex dropped.
I'd argue they were more obsolete when Rule Of Three got implemented and actually started to be enforced as heaven forbid you get Killshot off more than once every few games.
Martel732 wrote: So what is the truth, then? I personally think the dominus class are junk, but maybe I'm not seeing something.
1. Castellans are ~600 points, not 700.
2. Every Castellan is taking Ion Bulwark and Cawl's Wrath. This is what every Castellan will run in competitive play, just like you're always taking Tallarn or Catachan on a Shadowsword.
3. A lone Shadowsword isn't killing a Castellan. The Castellan 3++ means that only in an average round of shooting you'll end up with 1 unsaved wound from the volcano cannon, leaving you way short of killing a Castellan even if you also take a full set of lascannon sponsons.
4. The Castellan, though, will in an average round of shooting destroy an unshrouded Shadowsword or put a shrouded one on its final bracket.
5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.
You really want to be taking 3 Shadowswords in a Supreme Command detachment if you want to reliably one round a Castellan. And even then, they can just stand back up and unless you've got a charger that can deal d3 wounds, that Knight is going to get a turn.
I see knights at best as a gate keeper army. They have some really bad matchups like dark eldar and Altioc. They are not fun for beer and pretzel games nor are interesting to watch in a video batrep. GW wrote an excellent codex for them though and that’s really what matters. As soon as IGCP farm gets the hit from the nerf bat they I don’t think they will be so amazing any more.
Primark G wrote: I see knights at best as a gate keeper army. They have some really bad matchups like dark eldar and Altioc. They are not fun for beer and pretzel games nor are interesting to watch in a video batrep. GW wrote an excellent codex for them though and that’s really what matters. As soon as IGCP farm gets the hit from the nerf bat they I don’t think they will be so amazing any more.
Except that CP farm has gone untouched since the IG codex dropped and even got a buff with the CP changes in the big FAQ.
I wouldn't be holding much hope for nerfs to allies or CP's any time soon.
Knight's are a hard match up for a lot of lists being high toughness reasonable save and invulnerable saves but they are small in number and hard counters already exsist people will adapt soon enough and they'll probably settle up as a good Teir 2 army potentially a part of new imperial soup flavour.
I have heard from a very reliable source IGCP farm is on deck for the nerf bat. You can keep playing them but I’d be experimenting with new lists that eschew them so you don’t get caught out totally flat footed. GW giveth and really taketh.
Primark G wrote: I see knights at best as a gate keeper army. They have some really bad matchups like dark eldar and Altioc. They are not fun for beer and pretzel games nor are interesting to watch in a video batrep. GW wrote an excellent codex for them though and that’s really what matters. As soon as IGCP farm gets the hit from the nerf bat they I don’t think they will be so amazing any more.
We'll see. I think a Knights list with a Catachan brigade is very strong.
Primark G wrote: I have heard from a very reliable source IGCP farm is on deck for the nerf bat. You can keep playing them but I’d be experimenting with new lists that eschew them so you don’t get caught out totally flat footed. GW giveth and really taketh.
I don't play IG so if the nerf bad finally comes for them it's just good news for me but maybe I'm just not used to working on GW response times. Also if it happens I expect much salt from IG players.
Salt donkey wrote: Full disclosure: i play knights. I keep hearing the "just bring heavy weapons!" excuse, from people, but yet to see any army actually be successful against knights with that approach (aside from other knight lists). Examples include but are not limited to, triple max squads of obliterators lists, triple max squads of hiveguard lists, 9 dakkabots list, and triple plagueburst crawlers and bloat drone lists. All get crushed against a strong knight list. Maybe hordes can do it, since knights have a harder time killing a lot of stuff, but its still possible for them to do so. Dark elder might have had a shot, except helverins perfectly counter their vehicles. Eldar get crushed, as knights out fire-power and out durability them. If anyone has an actual list that has had success against knights I'd love to hear of it, because so far winning has been too easy with them.
- Doom + rangers and mandrakes shooting,
- The amount of psychic mortal wounds,
- dropping leadership and casting mind war on character knight,
- The amount of -1 to hit modifiers,
Martel732 wrote: You just beat them on objectives. You don't need to kill them. Their shooting is actually awful for their cost.
Yeah, I’m not seeing how Knight Castellans and Armiger Helverins have awful shooting for their cost.
Depends on what you are shooting. Castellan is very good against stuff like shadowsword but sucks against infantry. Actually knights have nothing even remotely efficient way to deal with hordes so orks can pretty much win by default by objectives without even attempting to kill them. And indeed should avoid that as they need to make sure they are NOT in close combat ie fall back and dont' charge. Crusader is their most efficient horde clearer and even that will kill like ~100 pts of ork boyz a turn IF they are in combat. They don't get first turn charge ever so you are looking at 4-5 turns like that max.
And knights don't load up all on crusaders. Rest are killing even less. Oh and 1-3 turns will be spent fighting often enough grots which are even less efficient to kill.
Doubtful tyranids are lacking in tools of doing similar except they can also kill or damage them. Even if you don't kill knights get them on worse wound bracket and their power drops a lot. Remember any wound bracket drop/death hurts knights lot more than say IG vehicle, eldar vehicle etc.
The problem is that many Knight list aren't well optimized yet,whereas their opposition is. I just can't imagine dark eldar being that much of problem, when helverins are averaging 7.11 wounds against ravagers without the re-roll stratagem (meaning 3 will kill 2 non-black heart ravagers in a single turn of shooting, and almost kill 2 said black heart ravagers without any stratagem help.) Throw in a raven stratagem buffed Castellan into the mix, and their wont be very many dark eldar vehicles alive after turn 1. Dark eldar can't even hide that effectively, as 14 +d6 movement can ensure that the helverins always have pretty good firing positions. Additionally Knights out range most of eldar's shenanigans making them one of the only factions able to out position the space elves. I can go on further, but eldar definitely don't have an easy time with knights.
Salt donkey wrote: The problem is that many Knight list aren't well optimized yet,whereas their opposition is. I just can't imagine dark eldar being that much of problem, when helverins are averaging 7.11 wounds against ravagers without the re-roll stratagem (meaning 3 will kill 2 non-black heart ravagers in a single turn of shooting, and almost kill 2 said black heart ravagers without any stratagem help.) Throw in a raven stratagem buffed Castellan into the mix, and their wont be very many dark eldar vehicles alive after turn 1. Dark eldar can't even hide that effectively, as 14 +d6 movement can ensure that the helverins always have pretty good firing positions. Additionally Knights out range dark eldar, making them one of the only factions able to out position the space elves. I can go on further, but eldar definitely don't have an easy time with knights.
I just got floored by dark eldars. They are very resilient for the costs, have bazillion shots and rerolls by bucketloads, fast moving S5 bikers that actually pose a threat to knight in cc and can actually tie them in h2h. Disintegrators by bucketloads and in multiple sources so rotate ion shield is fairly useless. Mortal wounds, blasters everywhere.
Oh and raven strategem buffed castellan...You do know they have negate strategem on 2+ by default basically? If you count on that strategem to help castellan you are crazy.
Oh and dark eldar can hide those ravagers in deep strike so they will ALWAYS get to shoot you first if they want on turn 1.
And yes knights have longer range. Bohoo. Too bad for knights tables are played on 6'x4' with 24" between DZ's and dark eldar speed+range makes them MORE than sufficient range to reach anywhere they want. Say that when games are played on 12'x8' with 12" from table edges for DZ's.
Wait, knights are op? Wut? When did this happen? I thought they were mid-high teir at best? I honestly havnt seen a single one in any recent tournaments?
lolman1c wrote: Wait, knights are op? Wut? When did this happen? I thought they were mid-high teir at best? I honestly havnt seen a single one in any recent tournaments?
Well there were few in recent big tournament top-8's but several were allies to other imperial soup. Lone raven castellan for example is potential replacement for shadowsword being awesome tank buster(can blow repulsor and leman russ at the same time without even carapace weapons or meltas) that can duel with opponent shadowsword giving them first shot and still kick the crap out of them. Or do what I did yesterday on the 1 turn it got to shoot at full effect(one turn hampered by strategem negated and dices, 3rd by being on last wound bracket, then it died). One turn, take 2 ravagers, 1 cronos(I think. big h2h monsters), venom in one turn. More expensive but tougher platform as well.
But full on knight army? Don't expect them to dominate tournaments. They are better in one off games but there's many hard counters which will ruin their chances of getting 5-0 with 17-20 pts per round.
meleti wrote: Just like all the Custodes lists have Guard, all the Knights lists are going to have their own chaff (Guard/AdMech).
At which point its more imperial soup, a slightly different flavour but still soup.
Is IG plus custodes plus knights, a Knight list, a Custodes list, a guard list or a soup liat?
Pure knights are viable and got a solid codex but arn't going to be top table at events.
meleti wrote: Just like all the Custodes lists have Guard, all the Knights lists are going to have their own chaff (Guard/AdMech).
At which point its more imperial soup, a slightly different flavour but still soup.
Is IG plus custodes plus knights, a Knight list, a Custodes list, a guard list or a soup liat?
Pure knights are viable and got a solid codex but arn't going to be top table at events.
Meh, I honestly see soup as a problem but wish it wasn't. I don't take it but I always like the idea of doing big games where every part of the imperium is involved. The IG being the fodder for marines who command the battle as a knight comes in for back up because the inquisitor in the back has a secret about his family and threatened to tell everyone. 40k really needs a lot more risk vs reward... most armies get too reward while the others get rto much risk... knights as soup I can see having the reward of all the bonuses thrown on the table from the other factions getting their strats and trates (they can't share them but they sure can work well together). But we could have an entire edebate (and have) on that subject alone.
Haha, a lot of the soup would probably collapse over night if they limited CP to the faction that created them. Like if you have blood angels and IG then only the cpIg make can only be spent on IG... people would have a heart attack if this happens. XD
meleti wrote: Just like all the Custodes lists have Guard, all the Knights lists are going to have their own chaff (Guard/AdMech).
At which point is the problem knights or soup? Are knights broken if there's 1 knight in imperial soup? And certainly you can forget "no army can deal with 4-5 knights" complains then. You'll be dealing with 1.
Salt donkey wrote: The problem is that many Knight list aren't well optimized yet,whereas their opposition is. I just can't imagine dark eldar being that much of problem, when helverins are averaging 7.11 wounds against ravagers without the re-roll stratagem (meaning 3 will kill 2 non-black heart ravagers in a single turn of shooting, and almost kill 2 said black heart ravagers without any stratagem help.) Throw in a raven stratagem buffed Castellan into the mix, and their wont be very many dark eldar vehicles alive after turn 1. Dark eldar can't even hide that effectively, as 14 +d6 movement can ensure that the helverins always have pretty good firing positions. Additionally Knights out range dark eldar, making them one of the only factions able to out position the space elves. I can go on further, but eldar definitely don't have an easy time with knights.
I just got floored by dark eldars. They are very resilient for the costs, have bazillion shots and rerolls by bucketloads, fast moving S5 bikers that actually pose a threat to knight in cc and can actually tie them in h2h. Disintegrators by bucketloads and in multiple sources so rotate ion shield is fairly useless. Mortal wounds, blasters everywhere.
Oh and raven strategem buffed castellan...You do know they have negate strategem on 2+ by default basically? If you count on that strategem to help castellan you are crazy.
Oh and dark eldar can hide those ravagers in deep strike so they will ALWAYS get to shoot you first if they want on turn 1.
And yes knights have longer range. Bohoo. Too bad for knights tables are played on 6'x4' with 24" between DZ's and dark eldar speed+range makes them MORE than sufficient range to reach anywhere they want. Say that when games are played on 12'x8' with 12" from table edges for DZ's.
Yeah dark eldar are strong, strongest they've ever been fact (I dusted off them from playing them back in 5th). First no where have I seen you mention playing helverins, which in the unit you need in this matchup. Second its not the end of the world if they hide their ravengers, that just means you're shooting something else. You absolutely don't need the raven stratagem do heavy damage with the Big C, it just turns its fantastic firepower into bonkers amazing.Third, while you are right that high range wont protect your knights forever, it should at least mitigate their turn 1 shooting, as they will have deepstrike in their deployment zone with their ravengers. Finally how are reaver jetbikes threatening beyond their weak mortal wound output? Their main use is to tie something up turn 1 , not their damage output. Heck most the time people opt for +2 move drug on them, not the +1 S one (come to think of it, it sounds like you're talking about hellions as reaver's can only get to S5 via an expensive stratagem or an obsession which isn't the one that allows you to charge after advancing). You are right in that dark eldar's main strength is their high durability and damage output for their cost, but Knights do this better.Run at least 3 helverin next time you play them, and then come back and tell me this an unwinnable match up
Well, more likely 3-4 Knights depending on the particular list. Most Knights/Guard lists will be a Knights Super-Heavy detachment so 3 Knights, and then a Guard brigade or a Guard battalion and some other detachment like another Guard battalion or a Blood Angels battalion.
Yeah dark eldar are strong, strongest they've ever been fact (I dusted off them from playing them back in 5th). First no where have I seen you mention playing helverins, which in the unit you need in this matchup. Second its not the end of the world if they hide their ravengers, that just means you're shooting something else. You absolutely don't need the raven stratagem do heavy damage with the Big C, it just turns its fantastic firepower into bonkers amazing.Third, while you are right that high range wont protect your knights forever, it should at least mitigate their turn 1 shooting, as they will have deepstrike in their deployment zone with their ravengers. Finally how are reaver jetbikes threatening beyond their weak mortal wound output? Their main use is to tie something up turn 1 , not their damage output. Heck most the time people opt for +2 move drug on them, not the +1 S one (come to think of it, it sounds like you're talking about hellions as reaver's can only get to S5 via an expensive stratagem or an obsession which isn't the one that allows you to charge after advancing). You are right in that dark eldar's main strength is their high durability and damage output for their cost, but Knights do this better.Run at least 3 helverin next time you play them, and then come back and tell me this an unwinnable match up
Well then you either missed or how many you think they are spammed? I fielded 2 yesterday. How many you think TAC knights will have? They aren't free so for TAC list so castellan+2 questor=alone 1400. You strugle to add more than 3(I had castellan, crusader, errant, warglaive and 2 helverins so best I could do would be 3 helverins). Tooling up against by specifically tailoring with helverins against DE is stupid. Unless you know tournament is filled with DE you don't tailor against 1 army and frankly list tailoring doesn't show anything about balance since anything can be countered by list tailoring. Oh and the warglaive was blown apart T1 so even if it had been 3rd helverin would have been irrelevant.
And yes castellan can do damage without strategem. Killed 1 ravager without it. Whopedoo. It costs 600 pts.
Dark eldars reach you in turn 1 so not much range they have...
Reavers have a) blasters b) mortal wounds c) big pile of S5 attacks(wounding on 5+) rerolling to hit's and to wounds of 1's. That pile up. Couple that inability to leave combat for knight to utilize shooting and surprisingly resilient as well. And yes I'm talking about reavers. Those guys on bikes. Wish they WERE helions as I could leave combat and shoot at them.
And when dark eldars can take out like 20% of your army in one go(warglaive so 1/6 knights there alone and big pile of wounds to crusader) you aren't that tough. Also knights don't roll that many dices so there's bound to be whiffed rounds of shooting which really hurts. Dark eldar meanwhile with all the big pile of dices don't NEED to worry about luck.
Oh and PLEASE next time don't make assumptions like I didn't use helverins without knowing better. Your comments might actually appear little bit more credible that way. Now they are worthless. Doesn't help when you assume I mistook reavers for hellions WHEN I SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED BLOCKING THE KNIGHTS IN CLOSE COMBAT ASTO WHY THE BIKES WERE A PROBLEM! Which hellions, being infantry, can't do. Reavers can. They are bikes. Can't fall back over them.
Well, more likely 3-4 Knights depending on the particular list. Most Knights/Guard lists will be a Knights Super-Heavy detachment so 3 Knights, and then a Guard brigade or a Guard battalion and some other detachment like another Guard battalion or a Blood Angels battalion.
3-4 knights unless we are talking questor+2 armigers aren't bringing guard and guard or blood angels. Especially if they are fielding castellan which seems to be point of complain. At least not here with 2k tournaments. Maybe you play 2.5k tournaments.
3-4 knights unless we are talking questor+2 armigers aren't bringing guard and guard or blood angels. Especially if they are fielding castellan which seems to be point of complain. At least not here with 2k tournaments. Maybe you play 2.5k tournaments.
in 2000 points you can fit all kinds of stuff. 2 Armigers and a Dominus is well under 1000 points. That's more than enough for a full Guard brigade. And if you take less Guard, you can take more of other things like additional Knights or additional battalions.
Yeah dark eldar are strong, strongest they've ever been fact (I dusted off them from playing them back in 5th). First no where have I seen you mention playing helverins, which in the unit you need in this matchup. Second its not the end of the world if they hide their ravengers, that just means you're shooting something else. You absolutely don't need the raven stratagem do heavy damage with the Big C, it just turns its fantastic firepower into bonkers amazing.Third, while you are right that high range wont protect your knights forever, it should at least mitigate their turn 1 shooting, as they will have deepstrike in their deployment zone with their ravengers. Finally how are reaver jetbikes threatening beyond their weak mortal wound output? Their main use is to tie something up turn 1 , not their damage output. Heck most the time people opt for +2 move drug on them, not the +1 S one (come to think of it, it sounds like you're talking about hellions as reaver's can only get to S5 via an expensive stratagem or an obsession which isn't the one that allows you to charge after advancing). You are right in that dark eldar's main strength is their high durability and damage output for their cost, but Knights do this better.Run at least 3 helverin next time you play them, and then come back and tell me this an unwinnable match up
Well then you either missed or how many you think they are spammed? I fielded 2 yesterday. How many you think TAC knights will have? They aren't free so for TAC list so castellan+2 questor=alone 1400. You strugle to add more than 3(I had castellan, crusader, errant, warglaive and 2 helverins so best I could do would be 3 helverins). Tooling up against by specifically tailoring with helverins against DE is stupid. Unless you know tournament is filled with DE you don't tailor against 1 army and frankly list tailoring doesn't show anything about balance since anything can be countered by list tailoring. Oh and the warglaive was blown apart T1 so even if it had been 3rd helverin would have been irrelevant.
And yes castellan can do damage without strategem. Killed 1 ravager without it. Whopedoo. It costs 600 pts.
Dark eldars reach you in turn 1 so not much range they have...
Reavers have a) blasters b) mortal wounds c) big pile of S5 attacks(wounding on 5+) rerolling to hit's and to wounds of 1's. That pile up. Couple that inability to leave combat for knight to utilize shooting and surprisingly resilient as well. And yes I'm talking about reavers. Those guys on bikes. Wish they WERE helions as I could leave combat and shoot at them.
And when dark eldars can take out like 20% of your army in one go(warglaive so 1/6 knights there alone and big pile of wounds to crusader) you aren't that tough. Also knights don't roll that many dices so there's bound to be whiffed rounds of shooting which really hurts. Dark eldar meanwhile with all the big pile of dices don't NEED to worry about luck.
Oh and PLEASE next time don't make assumptions like I didn't use helverins without knowing better. Your comments might actually appear little bit more credible that way. Now they are worthless. Doesn't help when you assume I mistook reavers for hellions WHEN I SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED BLOCKING THE KNIGHTS IN CLOSE COMBAT ASTO WHY THE BIKES WERE A PROBLEM! Which hellions, being infantry, can't do. Reavers can. They are bikes. Can't fall back over them.
Well, more likely 3-4 Knights depending on the particular list. Most Knights/Guard lists will be a Knights Super-Heavy detachment so 3 Knights, and then a Guard brigade or a Guard battalion and some other detachment like another Guard battalion or a Blood Angels battalion.
3-4 knights unless we are talking questor+2 armigers aren't bringing guard and guard or blood angels. Especially if they are fielding castellan which seems to be point of complain. At least not here with 2k tournaments. Maybe you play 2.5k tournaments.
Ok good glad you where using the helverins (sorry for assuming). Sounds like your opponent was misinterpreting some rules as hellions and reavers have no ability to stop you from falling back (wychs do but that only works against infantry). Did they surround your knights? (also seems odd considering reaver squads max at 9 models, meaning your stomps should remove likely enough to escape.) The reason I assumed they where hellions and not reavers is reavers are only base S 3, meaning they would need a drug + something weird to get them to S5 (they do have bladevanes which is S 4 in melee,but that can't be buffed in any way beyond that.) Finally Reavers have no way to re-roll 1's to wound, so I would double check what your opponent was telling you because it sounds fishy at best to me.
Yeah. Some thing is odd about those bikes. They aren't S5 they are S4 and you can't change it. Toughness 5 easy maybe even 6 if he is willing to spend points to over dose.
They can only re-roll 1s to hit if their is a Sucubus near by. They can't reroll wounds.
Headlss wrote: Yeah. Some thing is odd about those bikes. They aren't S5 they are S4 and you can't change it. Toughness 5 easy maybe even 6 if he is willing to spend points to over dose.
They can only re-roll 1s to hit if their is a Sucubus near by. They can't reroll wounds.
It sounds like they have added the +1 strength to the weapon profile not the models profile.
A Warden with no carapace is 412pts, and with shooting+CC it can kill 17 GEQ a turn. It's not bleeding edge, but I do think knights can respond to chaff pretty well. Against an ALL chaff list ... not so much.
Generally, I agree with the sentiment that Knights have a very powerful codex that's going to impact the game in a big way.
Sounds like your opponent is misplaying reaver jetbikes and maybe dark eldar in general, they are base strength 3 so can become S5 if the have +1S drug and +1S obsession, but loose -1 ap adn the ability to advance auto 8 inches and still charge, as someone else posted its only wyches and succubus which have the ability to "trap" you in combat based on a roll off that only works vs infantry (yes jetbikes can surround you and you cant retreat over them, but you should be able to stomp them to death or clear a way to retreat), re-rolling 1's to hits if theres a succubus nearby but no ways to re-roll wounds, the mortal wounds only happen on a 4+ when charging and only 1 in 3 can take one, and 1 and 3 can take blasters. Yes reavers are strong but they excel at clogging up targets turn 1 to stop heavy losses as the rest of the army moves up the board not deleting superheavy units 3 times there cost
aldo1234 wrote: Sounds like your opponent is misplaying reaver jetbikes and maybe dark eldar in general, they are base strength 3 so can become S5 if the have +1S drug and +1S obsession, but loose -1 ap adn the ability to advance auto 8 inches and still charge, as someone else posted its only wyches and succubus which have the ability to "trap" you in combat based on a roll off that only works vs infantry (yes jetbikes can surround you and you cant retreat over them, but you should be able to stomp them to death or clear a way to retreat), re-rolling 1's to hits if theres a succubus nearby but no ways to re-roll wounds, the mortal wounds only happen on a 4+ when charging and only 1 in 3 can take one, and 1 and 3 can take blasters. Yes reavers are strong but they excel at clogging up targets turn 1 to stop heavy losses as the rest of the army moves up the board not deleting superheavy units 3 times there cost
He surrounded the knight. And I tried to stomp. But apart from them being surprisingly resilient with saves, 6+++ and multiple wounds then of course you get hit by degrading stats.
Oh and you don't need advance and charge automatically. Those things are fast enough and it's not like he was going for 1st turn charge(which would be bad idea anyway). Actually I did the initial charge but thanks to already being degraded they didn't lose that much. Hitting on 5+ sucks 12 attacks or not. Them having save and 6+++ makes it even more annoying. Having finished off crusader the errant then wasn't too far to charge(I tried to charge them first but -2" to charge prevented it).
And no they don't do alone. Sheesh. THEY DON'T NEED TO! You shoot the knight with something. Then they lock it place, cause some more wounds and can finish wounded knight. Meanwhile knight is left trying to clear annoyingly resilient knights without best weapons(guns).
You are talking theory. I saw it used in real game. You assume 1 unit has to automatically delete unit to take it out. But you know what? You generally need more points than target to destroy in one go. 2-3 times is OK amount. If you think I expect 1/3 point unit to destroy enemy unit in one go you are mistaken. That's about as stupid claim as "castellan kills only 400 pts unit in one round. It sucks". Killing 2/3 worth of it is huge as it is. Reavers don't have to kill it in one go to be annoyance. Especially as knights don't take on casualties or even degrading well losing lot more of their power per degraded model than say IG.
aldo1234 wrote: Sounds like your opponent is misplaying reaver jetbikes and maybe dark eldar in general, they are base strength 3 so can become S5 if the have +1S drug and +1S obsession, but loose -1 ap adn the ability to advance auto 8 inches and still charge, as someone else posted its only wyches and succubus which have the ability to "trap" you in combat based on a roll off that only works vs infantry (yes jetbikes can surround you and you cant retreat over them, but you should be able to stomp them to death or clear a way to retreat), re-rolling 1's to hits if theres a succubus nearby but no ways to re-roll wounds, the mortal wounds only happen on a 4+ when charging and only 1 in 3 can take one, and 1 and 3 can take blasters. Yes reavers are strong but they excel at clogging up targets turn 1 to stop heavy losses as the rest of the army moves up the board not deleting superheavy units 3 times there cost
He surrounded the knight. And I tried to stomp. But apart from them being surprisingly resilient with saves, 6+++ and multiple wounds then of course you get hit by degrading stats.
Oh and you don't need advance and charge automatically. Those things are fast enough and it's not like he was going for 1st turn charge(which would be bad idea anyway). Actually I did the initial charge but thanks to already being degraded they didn't lose that much. Hitting on 5+ sucks 12 attacks or not. Them having save and 6+++ makes it even more annoying. Having finished off crusader the errant then wasn't too far to charge(I tried to charge them first but -2" to charge prevented it).
And no they don't do alone. Sheesh. THEY DON'T NEED TO! You shoot the knight with something. Then they lock it place, cause some more wounds and can finish wounded knight. Meanwhile knight is left trying to clear annoyingly resilient knights without best weapons(guns).
You are talking theory. I saw it used in real game. You assume 1 unit has to automatically delete unit to take it out. But you know what? You generally need more points than target to destroy in one go. 2-3 times is OK amount. If you think I expect 1/3 point unit to destroy enemy unit in one go you are mistaken. That's about as stupid claim as "castellan kills only 400 pts unit in one round. It sucks". Killing 2/3 worth of it is huge as it is. Reavers don't have to kill it in one go to be annoyance. Especially as knights don't take on casualties or even degrading well losing lot more of their power per degraded model than say IG.
Yes i am talking theory, but theory based on if you and your opponent played the rules correctly and that everything was statistically average (yes games never work out at average but its the easiest way to looking at whats good and whats not). First you stated that they did mortal wounds to you, how exactly? Did they advance over you in which case its a 1 in 6 chance for a mortal wound for each that physically passes over it but means no charges later and -1 to hit with blasters. Or they charged and could do a max of 4 mortal wounds from a unit of 12, but you have said you charged so it potentially is the first one then. Next question is how did you get -2 to charges? nothing i know of in the dark eldar codex gives -2 to charges. in your first combat
it might seem like a personal attack on you but i honestly would like a detailed report of what happened so we can look at ways to improve
or counters for dark eldar and give hopefully good advice. So having as much information as you can supply would be good. I think crusaders with endless fury are good vs dark eldar because its on unmodified 6's you get extra hits plus its good S, AP and D vs dark eldar. however i think the player you were against was misplaying dark eldar (either by accident or to gain an advantage) so question everything he says, ask to see his book if something sounds too good to be true
Pretty sure Guard cop flack as there the Anti-fun army, I cannot remember last time I played against guard and it was not a tedious chore. Hell even watching a guard matchup battle report is depressing.
This is backed up by them having been the top tier index that then got buffed when most armies were taking NERF bats to the face.
Then they got some nerfs and still retained top spot more or less. Oh and the fact the fethers are everywhere as CP batterys.
Plus I think a lot of people still blame 5th ed guard for the start of the cancer that is flyers.
So as you can see there are any number of reasons why guard are disliked.
Knights are strong enough to gate-keep the old anti horde armies so prevalent 3 months ago.
Look at these lists from Adepticon a just a short 3 months ago. And then consider if they ran into a simple knight list, like a Castellan, Crusader, Warden, and 2x Helverins.
I haven't had problems with knights this edition. A single knight with a guard list is tough, but if someone's trying to go pure knight, just hide in terrain and grab objectives. Kill them one at a time like necrons and you'll be fine with just plas spam and a few lascannons.
See, I don't see this happen on the table. Take your plasma example:
let's say you get 10 hellblasters in rapidfire range of a Warden with cap support... Good work! 20 3+ rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, saving on 4s (either bulwark, FW knight, or rotate) = 7.78 damage (that drops to 4.44 against a 3++).
That's not a great return on 330pts of fragile plasma - they're probably all going to be dea next turn... Here's that cheap Warden, with just endless fury, fighting back: 9.48 from the gun 8.89 from the tapdancing = 8 or 9 dead Hellblasters.
It's pretty silly that in order to make knights viable they had to give them kickass invulnerable saves. Anyone can see there is a problem with the relative power scale of AP weaponry and multi-damage weapons.
Because the armies that have trouble dealing with them have trouble dealing with everything at the moment...
Knights seem to struggle against hordes, armies with negatives to hit them and efficient multi-wound shooting.
They are strong but good armies have the tools to deal with them (lots of negs to hit for eldar of all flavors with good multi-damage shooting, lots of good multi-damage weapons for Tau and enough drones to eat those big shots, tons of bodies + good multi-damage weapons for guard/csm/Nids, mortal wounds+bodies+invulns for demons and their big boys hit just as hard/harder than knights, necrons got quantum shielding+destroyers/vaults).
It's just the usual suspects (orcs, SM of all flavors, is inquisition even a thing?) that struggle to deal at this point.
Deepstrike the Ravagers and "Agents of Vect" all the nasty stratagems. Jinx one knight for the Grotesque along with reroll to wound stratagem while doom another so Talos and Ravagers can kill it.
Smite also helped alot along with executioner.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: See, I don't see this happen on the table. Take your plasma example:
let's say you get 10 hellblasters in rapidfire range of a Warden with cap support... Good work!
20 3+ rerolling 1s, wounding on 4s, saving on 4s (either bulwark, FW knight, or rotate)
= 7.78 damage (that drops to 4.44 against a 3++).
That's not a great return on 330pts of fragile plasma - they're probably all going to be dea next turn... Here's that cheap Warden, with just endless fury, fighting back:
9.48 from the gun
8.89 from the tapdancing
= 8 or 9 dead Hellblasters.
You forgot reroll 1s to wound since there will obviously be a lieutenant nearby (never seen hellblaster without him same for the banner)
In more tailored list I would go for Dark Angels with Azrael. Thats reroll to hit and a 4++ from Azrael along with the lieutenant and stratagem that gives them +1D.
And ofcourse you have a Null zone psyker to remove that pesky ++ save.
Thats about 27wounds.
Knights just got thier first in-depth release (with support and heavy versions) and we've only seen one major ITC with them (and that one didn't use the FAQ)
Knights did finish on top tables there, but I don't think the community will really have an opinion until after BAO. Depending on the results they will either have a ton of Dark Eldar or Imperial Knights 'need nerfing' threads.
Astra Militarum was easy to do comparisons of. Take an AM model, compare only the part of the stat line you think is relevant, then notice it's cheaper than your stuff and 'almost' as good. It's ready-built to generate 40k lynch mobs. Knights can only really be compared to other knights.
I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
Well, obviously there isn't one. But I don't necessarily see that as a problem. Every list needs a counter.
I see people trying to out-punch knight lists with big, expensive counters that they think will punch right through a knight. In fairness, a lascannon will still punch a knight pretty hard, but at the same time... the lascannon is taking up the space of 2-3 other models. As lists deform to get into a boxing match with knights, they're actually shifting themselves into the wheelhouse of knights: elite armies with a fair bit of punch that probably won't play the scenario very well.
I'm pretty sure it is a monumental feat to out punch a knight army, but the solution is to just not play their game. Play the darn scenario, screen and protect your units to last through the game. Get to turn 5 and steal the table (even easier in Maelstrom or ITC).
I've played a Valiant a few times over the past few weeks and I will impart this from my experience:
When players feel pressured into destroying the Valiant, the Valiant wins. Rotate Ion Shields, take about 10 points of damage or less for the turn. Repeat until my CP is dry.
I feel a lot more pressure when they focus on the scenario and remove the stuff around the Valiant, thus making the model a giant death robot that is going to lock 600 points (a third or more of the overall) of objective scoring into 1 singular model.
Now it is entirely fun to watch the Valiant rampage through an army, but I wouldn't say it actually helps me win games outside of sheer intimidation (read as: misplays by the opponent).
How do you beat knight armies? Drop in more models, models that can get blasted off the table and your response is a laugh. "You seriously just dropped the Avenger into a 51 point squad? I'm so winning this exchange." Resist the urge to buff up your armor wrecking abilities and big models with good saves. Stop playing to the advantage of the knights.
Dark eldar probably do better with their mobility and swarminess than they do with actually threatening the knights. Threatening the objectives is what they really are doing, the blasters are "for the lawls" at that point (don't take that as me saying they aren't a threat, but the bigger threat is that Drukhari are now in control of the scenario/table).
You don't need to "one round" all the knights, just cripple them so their damage output is minimized. I love the IK codex, and I know many chaos players are looking at plugging the new renegades in their lists. I don't think they're over the top OP, and it will just take time for the meta to adjust. Plus, Orks and SW are right around the corner, and codices have progressively gotten better; who knows, maybe one of these two will be the counter balance to knights which puts it on a level playing field?
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
My Craftword/drukhari/harlequins armylist deploy's 2x10 rangers on the field with 2 farseers, warlock, 2 shadowseers behind them. Knights can only shoot at rangers with one unit rocking -3 to hit(reflexes stratagem) and the other only 6+ to hit (stratagem). Then I drop in 3x10 mandrakes with baleflame. I use stratagem to give my farseer and warlock +1 leadership for psychic tests to make sure I got as much chance to get doom working. Apart from baleflame and ranger shooting in combination with doom, I got farseers smite/executioner/mind war and shadowseer smite/mirror of minds/shards of light and grenade launchers. My mandrakes can deep strike second turn and get reroll assault and in combination with my vexator mask (one unit always strikes last) haemonoculus and harlequin troupes I also don't fear hordes. Mandrakes got 3 attacks each. I almost always kill one knight and could actually kill another with some decent assault rolls.
I have had mixed results with them against my guard. Either I go first and hopefully pop their shadowsword version, or they go first, pop enough of my anti armour to ensure I don't ever catch back up. Rather binary currently.
Still for a soup list there basic knight seems a bit better than my basic sponsonless super heavy. Better BS and resilience, comparable weapons fit. The better BS in particular is good as it gets round the -1 or -2 that makes Guard players sob quietly into their rations.
Primark G wrote: I have heard from a very reliable source IGCP farm is on deck for the nerf bat. You can keep playing them but I’d be experimenting with new lists that eschew them so you don’t get caught out totally flat footed. GW giveth and really taketh.
I don't play IG so if the nerf bad finally comes for them it's just good news for me but maybe I'm just not used to working on GW response times. Also if it happens I expect much salt from IG players.
If the nerf is 'Guard CPs can only be spent on 'Guard stratagems the IG players will be perfectly happy. Of course all those Imperial lists will be rather unhappy and have to go buy Admech or something...
Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
Well, obviously there isn't one. But I don't necessarily see that as a problem. Every list needs a counter.
w1zard wrote: Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.
I think this is pretty much the reason right here.
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
My Craftword/drukhari/harlequins armylist deploy's 2x10 rangers on the field with 2 farseers, warlock, 2 shadowseers behind them. Knights can only shoot at rangers with one unit rocking -3 to hit(reflexes stratagem) and the other only 6+ to hit (stratagem). Then I drop in 3x10 mandrakes with baleflame. I use stratagem to give my farseer and warlock +1 leadership for psychic tests to make sure I got as much chance to get doom working. Apart from baleflame and ranger shooting in combination with doom, I got farseers smite/executioner/mind war and shadowseer smite/mirror of minds/shards of light and grenade launchers. My mandrakes can deep strike second turn and get reroll assault and in combination with my vexator mask (one unit always strikes last) haemonoculus and harlequin troupes I also don't fear hordes. Mandrakes got 3 attacks each. I almost always kill one knight and could actually kill another with some decent assault rolls.
This seems like an excellent list.
Won't the shield breaker auto kill a Farseer/Lock a turn though really screwwing over the Doom working as wanted, leaving all the other CP for buffing shields? The 3++ against shooting seems to really screw this up. Even the 4+ seems like it would cause a problem? And of course the fact that the Avenger being the best gun.. that happens to have a Heavy Flamer on it has to be annoying.
But It does look good. Might work. You should try it!
Marmatag wrote: Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.
Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.
w1zard wrote: Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.
I think this is pretty much the reason right here.
I honestly think the game is largely improved by every army having an NPC detachment of some sort. It's something I've really come to appreciate in a lot of games and it translates really well to 40k.
Marmatag wrote: Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.
Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.
Stupid soup.
IG armies are mid tier?... eeeeeh.... yeah maybe they aren't as OP as IG+3 ShieldCaptains but Imperial Guard is definetely in the top tier, both as mono faction and as the core component of most imperial soups.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
Marmatag wrote: Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.
Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.
Stupid soup.
IG armies are mid tier?... eeeeeh.... yeah maybe they aren't as OP as IG+3 ShieldCaptains but Imperial Guard is definetely in the top tier, both as mono faction and as the core component of most imperial soups.
Then why mono armies are voewully lacking in top spots...
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
Especially when best weapon on questor chassis is only 6" longer reach.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
Marmatag wrote: Guardsmen & Conscripts costing only 4 points is insane. GW is upset people don't bring primaris. Yeah. Okay. Why? Because for the same cost i can get almost 30 guardsmen... and they've got way more synergy.
Thing is though it's only too good in context of soup. Pure IG armies haven't been dominating for a long time. Say they get upped to 5 pts. IT wouldn't actually affect soup all that much(30 pts. Whopedoo) but IG armies that are already on mid-tier's would get hit and be hit hard.
Stupid soup.
IG armies are mid tier?... eeeeeh.... yeah maybe they aren't as OP as IG+3 ShieldCaptains but Imperial Guard is definetely in the top tier, both as mono faction and as the core component of most imperial soups.
Then why mono armies are voewully lacking in top spots...
Because why play a mono army when you can use all the best units of different mono armies that sinergyze so well between them? That doesn't makes Imperial guard, as a mono faction, weak. Custodes aren't weak as mono faction as long as you spam Jetbikes. Even Custodes guardians are competitive. But why play one or the other when you can mix the best of two worlds?
5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.
#6 does not apply - you use it at the start of a turn and it turns off when the model hits 0 wounds.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
I think I spend 2 CP on Oathbreakger Guidance, and roll a 3+ to hit Ahriman, wound on a 2+, He saves on a 6+, he dies on a 5+. If he lives, I'll point out I have another Shieldbreaker missile, and preemptively rotate ion shields.
Zid wrote: Shriveling Pox + PBC's = pewpew knights.
You don't need to "one round" all the knights, just cripple them so their damage output is minimized. I love the IK codex, and I know many chaos players are looking at plugging the new renegades in their lists. I don't think they're over the top OP, and it will just take time for the meta to adjust. Plus, Orks and SW are right around the corner, and codices have progressively gotten better; who knows, maybe one of these two will be the counter balance to knights which puts it on a level playing field?
This right here. People need to stop thinking that if you can't one round the big toys that you have no chance. Diversify your assets - they can split fire, but they can't split shots to other units.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?
In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.
The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?
In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.
The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.
I'm also not just specifically talking about the Dominus class. The middle sized knights pose just as high a threat in my opinion (on a point by point basis), and if you are only left with your Dominus class knight supposedly squatting in the back of the map...Well, you just lost from basically not being able to score victory points. Unless it's a kill game, Dominus class isn't going to pull its weight squatting in the back.
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
My Craftword/drukhari/harlequins armylist deploy's 2x10 rangers on the field with 2 farseers, warlock, 2 shadowseers behind them. Knights can only shoot at rangers with one unit rocking -3 to hit(reflexes stratagem) and the other only 6+ to hit (stratagem). Then I drop in 3x10 mandrakes with baleflame. I use stratagem to give my farseer and warlock +1 leadership for psychic tests to make sure I got as much chance to get doom working. Apart from baleflame and ranger shooting in combination with doom, I got farseers smite/executioner/mind war and shadowseer smite/mirror of minds/shards of light and grenade launchers. My mandrakes can deep strike second turn and get reroll assault and in combination with my vexator mask (one unit always strikes last) haemonoculus and harlequin troupes I also don't fear hordes. Mandrakes got 3 attacks each. I almost always kill one knight and could actually kill another with some decent assault rolls.
This seems like an excellent list.
Won't the shield breaker auto kill a Farseer/Lock a turn though really screwwing over the Doom working as wanted, leaving all the other CP for buffing shields? The 3++ against shooting seems to really screw this up. Even the 4+ seems like it would cause a problem? And of course the fact that the Avenger being the best gun.. that happens to have a Heavy Flamer on it has to be annoying.
But It does look good. Might work. You should try it!
Don't like the missile but the farseer could still rock a -2 to hit with lightning reflexes stratagem. The missile also needs a 5+ to wound to kill the farseer in one shot.
My list doesn't care about 'saves'..
Let's say I put doom on a knight and shoot with 30 mandrakes (bale flame):
- 60 shots -> 40 hits,
- 6 to (mortal)wound-> so let's say 7 mortal wounds,
- BUT then we reroll to wound so extra 5 mortal wounds,
- BUT these mortal wounds are on top of the regelar shooting damage so the knight need's to make 12 armor saves with a -1, so even with a 3++ save that would mean another 4 wounds,
- Total: 16 wounds
I also got 25 rangers but let's say I lose 5 of them first round: 20 shots, 14 hits, 2 (mortal)wounds and then reroll to wound so another 2 mortal wounds and 4 armorsaves, failing one, so a total of 5 wounds.
This knight is almost dead.
Before this all happens I already did the following towards another knight:
moving:
solitaire blitz forward within 6 inch of knight (-1 leadership)
hemlock cloudstrikes within 12 inch (-2 leadership)
psychic:
shadowseer: smite and mirror of minds
shadowseer: smite and shards of light (-1 leadership)
farseer: mind war (against -4 leadership), smite
farseer: executioner, smite
hemlock: smite
5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.
#6 does not apply - you use it at the start of a turn and it turns off when the model hits 0 wounds.
You get shot in the opponent’s turn and use that stratagem in your own. The Knight, if it stood back up, has d3 wounds at the start of the turn.
People only seem to complain about tournament OP-ness, not regular OP-ness. When someone complains about Knights being OP, people just direct them to GW links for the anti-tank choice of their army.
There's also a lot of keyboard warriors that seem to just echo whatever the first over-hyped individual says, though that individual usually only played one or two games against said OP list with a subpar list, and everyone just hops on that as an example of how OP something is.
With Knights, the general consensus is that they're underpowered in tournaments because they can't hold objectives and can't deal with hordes, both of which I find mind-boggling since I myself played against a Tau list build for a tournament using ITC format and I was able to hold 3 of the 4 objectives for the entire game and was wiping things out left and right, despite a few critical mistakes I made.
So, idk about all this business about them being a gate-keeper army or a meta-breaker or whatever. I think those are just labels for people that feel like they're playing a 'Real' army that isn't Knights so they can scoff at Knights players.
My stance: All Knight lists can be very unfun to play against if you are taking an "All comers" list. Some of your choices will end up feeling like wasted dice rolls and if the Knight player can remove your units that are effective against the Knights, it will be an uphill, unfun, game.
But on the flip-side, if your list has lots of multi-damage AP -2 to better weapons, it is an unfun game for the Knight player as they are told to remove 1-2 Knights per turn.
Both of these combined solidly puts Knight lists as "casual" only. For both players' sake
They are an army that can present complete skew yet have tools to deal with all comers (at least AM tank companies can get tied up in melee, hordes struggle to deal with armor...). It is bad game design.
Be that as it may, people have real $$ sunk into that bad design so it's only fair that they stay but they are the most rock-paper-scissors of armies and if you are not playing someone with a well developed model collect they just may not own the tools to play against you (which, again is bad design).
They stomp newbies, roll armies that aren't prepped to deal with them and die in a fire to those that are ready to deal with them. The FW version is OP compared to the rest (where have we seen that before, thanks for continuing the stereotype). They are bad game design and should never have been made into a stand alone army. But now that that ship has sailed in the interest of selling more models more power to our eldar overlords.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?
In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.
The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.
I'm also not just specifically talking about the Dominus class. The middle sized knights pose just as high a threat in my opinion (on a point by point basis), and if you are only left with your Dominus class knight supposedly squatting in the back of the map...Well, you just lost from basically not being able to score victory points. Unless it's a kill game, Dominus class isn't going to pull its weight squatting in the back.
Knights lowest shooting range is 36" - except for additional melta guns. They abolsutely can and should sit back and shoot against armies that don't have long range firepower.
The Castellan absolutely can a sit in the back and shoot all game and make up it's points. volcano lance will merc just about any vehical or light vehical squadron in 1 shot. Relic plasma is the same deal 48" range. Then hes got the missles and d3 auto cannons with 48". Sure hes got 4 melta guns that he would like to use but I'd much prefer to bombard the opponents shooting before I go into range against an army that can strip my invo saves of knights. You are right - death hex will absolutely merc a knight. Realistically knights aren't going to win the objective game early - they are almost always going for late game table control or a tabling.
For example I have no idea what TS style army you were running but I'd assume it looks something like this.
2-3 daemon princes Ahriman - maybe an exault or termy sorc.
las missle dreads/sicarians/ or trip pred in the back
with ether small units of horrors or rubrics.
The only thing that is a threat to my knights is the back line shooty and it's made real dangerous by death hex. If I sit back for 1-2 turns killing that stuff (realistically that is all it will take to kill 4-5 back line threats) then I am more than happy to move up and stomp DP/arhiman turn 3/4. Knights have no invo in CC anyways to removing invos once shooting is gone is not at all a threat. Not saying it's an unbeatable strategy just saying it's a mistake to walk into a nasty spell like death hex.
It's possible to get deathhex turn 2 on any knight you want - but I am at least going to make you come to me.
I think the Valiant is pretty poor, while the Castellan suffers from the D6 damage on its guns. You can have good turns and bad ones - and the bad ones feel doubly bad if you end up degraded or facing minuses to hit.
To get your points you really need to shoot and assault, which you won't tend to manage turn 1. (In fact depending on LoS it can be quite easy to end up not really having nothing much to do at all in the first turn, which is awful on such an expensive model.)
Also the survivability is very swingy. Some games the knight player makes all their saves. Or you get through and promptly hit a 1-2 damage (CP reroll or no CP reroll). On the other hand you can get 3 D6 damage through, the Knight player fluffs their saves and you promptly roll 15~ damage. A bit of chipping away, a few mortal wounds and suddenly you are in trouble.
This is true for any dice rolls I guess, but it feels more luck dependent than other factions - which tend to get a more normal distribution.
vaklor4 wrote: Ive found that Chaos can deal with knights fairly well, especially taking an exalted sorcerer or ahriman to death hex thwir invuln save away.
Ehhh - pretty follish to walk into that one. They should probably just shoot you off the table rather than walk into deathhex.
Ahriman moves 12" and his Death Hex has a range of 18".
Unless you're not using your knights to melee at all, it's pretty tough to keep them ALL 30" away from ahriman.
The castellans guns are 48+ Helvrines are 60" - the shortest range guns are 36 inch range. Which gives you a 6" barrier to ahriman. Not to mention - if arhiman is the closest he is dead so it's pretty easy to make that spell useless turn 1 or 2. At least until I have destroyed all your heavy firepower. Just saying that's how I would approach that - not really a fan of not getting saves against big guns. Its a formula to lose.
Didn't you just make some sort of point about boards being a size far too small for you to possibly deal with some fast xenos unit with a threat range of 26"+charge? like JUST now, in this thread?
In the past I have complained about eldar units using 22" moves with double moves being inescapable.
Like 44" move with ability to charge after is almost impossible to deny charge against. 22 inch move with an 18" psychic power is really hard to hide from. 12 inch move with 18" psychic power is much easier.
The main point here is TS are not really a long range shooty army...nor is CSM or any daemon faction they would be allied with.
I'm also not just specifically talking about the Dominus class. The middle sized knights pose just as high a threat in my opinion (on a point by point basis), and if you are only left with your Dominus class knight supposedly squatting in the back of the map...Well, you just lost from basically not being able to score victory points. Unless it's a kill game, Dominus class isn't going to pull its weight squatting in the back.
Knights lowest shooting range is 36" - except for additional melta guns. They abolsutely can and should sit back and shoot against armies that don't have long range firepower.
The Castellan absolutely can a sit in the back and shoot all game and make up it's points. volcano lance will merc just about any vehical or light vehical squadron in 1 shot. Relic plasma is the same deal 48" range. Then hes got the missles and d3 auto cannons with 48". Sure hes got 4 melta guns that he would like to use but I'd much prefer to bombard the opponents shooting before I go into range against an army that can strip my invo saves of knights. You are right - death hex will absolutely merc a knight. Realistically knights aren't going to win the objective game early - they are almost always going for late game table control or a tabling.
For example I have no idea what TS style army you were running but I'd assume it looks something like this.
2-3 daemon princes Ahriman - maybe an exault or termy sorc.
las missle dreads/sicarians/ or trip pred in the back
with ether small units of horrors or rubrics.
The only thing that is a threat to my knights is the back line shooty and it's made real dangerous by death hex. If I sit back for 1-2 turns killing that stuff (realistically that is all it will take to kill 4-5 back line threats) then I am more than happy to move up and stomp DP/arhiman turn 3/4. Knights have no invo in CC anyways to removing invos once shooting is gone is not at all a threat. Not saying it's an unbeatable strategy just saying it's a mistake to walk into a nasty spell like death hex.
It's possible to get deathhex turn 2 on any knight you want - but I am at least going to make you come to me.
Although I disagree that your tactic is as bulletproof as you make it seem (mostly because out of the local players, I was the only heavy melee army to manage to still win consistently post-deepstrike nerf), I respect your style and know how good it can be. I personally tried to bring an all-comers T-sons list against knights and got WIPED, however wwhen I mixed my CSM, T-sons and Daemons together, it swung heavily in my favor.
Tyel wrote: I think the Valiant is pretty poor, while the Castellan suffers from the D6 damage on its guns. You can have good turns and bad ones - and the bad ones feel doubly bad if you end up degraded or facing minuses to hit.
To get your points you really need to shoot and assault, which you won't tend to manage turn 1. (In fact depending on LoS it can be quite easy to end up not really having nothing much to do at all in the first turn, which is awful on such an expensive model.)
Also the survivability is very swingy. Some games the knight player makes all their saves. Or you get through and promptly hit a 1-2 damage (CP reroll or no CP reroll). On the other hand you can get 3 D6 damage through, the Knight player fluffs their saves and you promptly roll 15~ damage. A bit of chipping away, a few mortal wounds and suddenly you are in trouble.
This is true for any dice rolls I guess, but it feels more luck dependent than other factions - which tend to get a more normal distribution.
Valliant basically requires the 4++ save with rotated shield turn 1 (everyone goes for it first). I'm considering running Valliant and castellan together with Castellan going for 2+ save relic sitting the back behind cover - this will be a 1+ save and effectively a 4+ or 3+ save against the majority of anti tank fire.
I am still hung up on Taranis vs Raven as both houses are VERY good. Ravens reroll 1's stratagem is fantastic. Taranis has knight resurrection and also 6+++ saves. The one advantage of Taranis is you can keep 1 knight in the fight with darkest hour if your opponent can't reach it in CC. This makes an opponent shooting down the Castellan almost auto lose because as long as you have CP - hes going to be fighting at full power provided you can make your 4+ get up roll with a reroll. Then 1 CP to keep him fighting at full power. Beware - against Eldar players they will be able to use Forwarned stratagem to "intercept" your resurrecting knight because it states you "set up" the model. Which forwarded states anytime an opponent "sets up" a model.
As for how to play the castellan. Roll it first. Use reroll on a roll of 1-2 on the volcano lance. If you get 3 shots with it then you can use your reroll on something else like your crusaders thermal cannon or damage result on your mega missle. If castellans randomness bothers you I'd suggest house raven. It makes the volcano lance increadibly powerful - 1 wound will average 7 damage and the strat also boosts your shoulder cannons big time as well.
I think I spend 2 CP on Oathbreakger Guidance, and roll a 3+ to hit Ahriman, wound on a 2+, He saves on a 6+, he dies on a 5+. If he lives, I'll point out I have another Shieldbreaker missile, and preemptively rotate ion shields.
I think you are overestimating odds of killing him. It's less than 50% chance to kill 4 wound character and odds just drop with W4. Average output is 2 wounds so 2 missiles won't even in average kill ahriman...Oh and knights are often short of CP's so 4CP for not even killing W5 character is expensive.
Those missiles aren't bad but they aren't super weapons either. About best use for them are W4 characters and you desperately need raven strategem and possibly command reroll even then to make it reliable enough to plan for.
5. If the Shadowsword somehow kills a Castellan, the Castellan can just use a 2CP stratagem to stand back up at the end of the enemy shooting phase on a 4+.
6. Oh, and there's another 1CP stratagem for a Castellan to fire as if it weren't bracketed.
#6 does not apply - you use it at the start of a turn and it turns off when the model hits 0 wounds.
You get shot in the opponent’s turn and use that stratagem in your own. The Knight, if it stood back up, has d3 wounds at the start of the turn.
a) that is expensive strategem that works 50-50. Not great
b) opponent can potentially charge you finishing 1-3 wounded character forcing you to spend 2CP more for another 50-50 shot. Great.
That strategem is fun troll strategem but it's not something to rely on.
Oh and every time you die there's 30% chance you can't even USE the strategem so chance of strategem saving castellan is 35%. Albeit 30% of times you spend no CP.
That's big if. IF they are so OP why haven't they already dominated tournaments they attended...
Or maybe it's shock horror that ~5 model armies aren't actually able to reliably score 5x20-0 and are bound to lose games and claims of OP are usual hysterical new codex syndrome.
w1zard wrote: Because people view IG like the "NPC" faction and get unbelievably salty if their bugs/supersoldiers/space communists get beaten by regular army dudes with rifles. People won't be happy until Guard are a free win again because we have been a free win for so long that anything else feels wrong to the majority of the community.
I think this is pretty much the reason right here.
tneva82 wrote: But if that's sign of OP'ness then so are imperium, chaos, eldar and dark eldars. Oh and pretty sure I have seen tyranids do well as well.
Ban them all! Nerf them all to hell! Can't let anybody do well at tournaments!
Dude you're just trolling now. Find where I wrote that Knights need a change.
Also Keep in mind to that these knight list where doing well at these events before the CP buff, so they're only getting better.
Castilian are pure money, Every time he fires it is devastating (doubly so with the Raven Strat).Xenomancers is also right that to in that you can position them to in way which makes them quite hard to kill. I kinda expect 2 helverin's with a Castilian to become a common imperial soup detachment (though it's 941 points). Speaking of which, soup with Knights will probably be better than pure, but that's been the case for literally every imperial codex. My point is that Knights will be among the strongest element of Soup, not that they do everything better than everyone else.
karandrasss wrote: So it looks like there are many factions that are competitive against one another. What was the problem again?
I don't know who had a problem to begin with. OP is in here saying Knights are the strongest Imperium faction. I'm in here saying Knights are competitively viable. I think people are just raging against some strawman, because no one is in here saying that Knights are ruining the game or anything.
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
Anticipating the tournament meta is a skill, too. Sometimes you've just got to roll the dice (pun unabashedly intended)
In terms of tourney play last weekend at the (small, 30 people) BattleUx weekend tourney using these popular tourney rules (really, not a fan, very bitty game where one minute you are trying to capture an objective the next shoot down an enemy flier and cast a psychic power, etc, etc. - far prefer a game with a clear objective and perhaps some - maybe secret - subplots) for how games are played. Knight players dominated, typically with a tiny battalion of ad mech for CPs. Ultimately the knight players with at least one volcano cannon got to the head of the knight pack, with knight games often being decided by who went first.
The_Real_Chris wrote: In terms of tourney play last weekend at the (small, 30 people) BattleUx weekend tourney using these popular tourney rules (really, not a fan, very bitty game where one minute you are trying to capture an objective the next shoot down an enemy flier and cast a psychic power, etc, etc. - far prefer a game with a clear objective and perhaps some - maybe secret - subplots) for how games are played. Knight players dominated, typically with a tiny battalion of ad mech for CPs. Ultimately the knight players with at least one volcano cannon got to the head of the knight pack, with knight games often being decided by who went first.
I think I spend 2 CP on Oathbreakger Guidance, and roll a 3+ to hit Ahriman, wound on a 2+, He saves on a 6+, he dies on a 5+. If he lives, I'll point out I have another Shieldbreaker missile, and preemptively rotate ion shields.
I think you are overestimating odds of killing him. It's less than 50% chance to kill 4 wound character and odds just drop with W4. Average output is 2 wounds so 2 missiles won't even in average kill ahriman...Oh and knights are often short of CP's so 4CP for not even killing W5 character is expensive.
Those missiles aren't bad but they aren't super weapons either. About best use for them are W4 characters and you desperately need raven strategem and possibly command reroll even then to make it reliable enough to plan for.
No your right. Its a pretty low chance of a single shot. But on the other hand, it is extremely likely that it does several damage. Some days a farseer with a couple wounds running away is about as good as a dead farseer no?
I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.
I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.
Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down
Reemule wrote: I think people are misunderstanding. Sure all armies have the tools to take care of knights.
The issue is they don't take them.
How do you build a competitive list to deal with a Dominus Class, Crusader, and Warden and a couple of Helverins, and have it also able to deal with 200 Ork Boys?
What is that list? (Relying on Terrain, or a mission screw to win doesn't count)
Anticipating the tournament meta is a skill, too. Sometimes you've just got to roll the dice (pun unabashedly intended)
Ha! A most perfect response. Absolutely dodging a match is a way to win it! There really isn't many ways to bring that single force that can deal with both extremes.
I do feel though that the overwhelming majority of the Horde forces bent the meta. At this moment knights seem to be bending it back. I'm hoping this continues. If your going to a event where you have to have a knight plan some of these forces out there are going to see a sea change in how they are played. Early in this thread i linked the top 16 thread from adepticon. A mere 3 months ago. Now that was before the FAQ changes, but just looking at them, with the new releases, I'm not sure many of those forces are in the meta chase at all anymore.
And maybe that is the ultimate value of the knights.
Gitdakka wrote: I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.
I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.
Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down
This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.
The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.
Gitdakka wrote: I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.
I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.
Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down
This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.
The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.
Those are still all fairly great for relics and warlprd traits imo. Even if they only effect a few models.
Gitdakka wrote: I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.
I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.
Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down
This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.
The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
Now if the knights are OP i could not really tell as my BT are underpowered and it was also my first game against the knight codex. But as I said it initially feels unfair with such good saves on the big-gun-knight regardless of the source of those saves. I had fun during the game though. I dunno how I can change my list to better manage such beasts while still playing templars but I'm sure I can adapt in time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also free warlordbuffs has way more impact on the game if applied to the biggest knight compared to if applied to a marine captain with lightning claws.
I'm not saying that they aren't good but given that represents a pregame spend of 1 or 2 CP from a total knight only 9 CP, that would be starting the game with 7/8 CP 2 turns of 3++ and knights would be out of CP.
Its the 180 Points CP farm that really allows the strategums to be spammed and keep the power strategums flowing. Knights are much like custodes. They are a tough army but acess to cheap CP takes them to the next level.
Unfortunately marines right now don't have an answer to that but all the eldars, Tau Crons and guard can give them a hard time.
Gitdakka wrote: I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.
I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.
Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down
This is where people not explaining their army causes people to feel an army is OP.
The reroll all hits in melee is the chaptor tactic.
The 4++ is a warlord trait, the +2inch to advance and charges is a warlord trait and only effects knights within 6"
The 2+ save is a relic.
That 4++ is only against shooting attacks.
Getting that big knight down to 3++ costs 3CP.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
Now if the knights are OP i could not really tell as my BT are underpowered and it was also my first game against the knight codex. But as I said it initially feels unfair with such good saves on the big-gun-knight regardless of the source of those saves. I had fun during the game though. I dunno how I can change my list to better manage such beasts while still playing templars but I'm sure I can adapt in time.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also free warlordbuffs has way more impact on the game if applied to the biggest knight compared to if applied to a marine captain with lightning claws.
Looks like you faced a decent Knight list with as you said an underpowered Templars list. Without knowing the details of that list i would proxy in more Las\Melta and maybe a Storm Raven or two in your list and do a rematch to test if it can be successful, otherwise soup might be the answer.
I think knights are strong and honestly close to right where they need to be.
I'd be okay with making it so rotate ion shields can only boost an invul to a 4++, as a 3++ is boarderline too good IMO. But otherwise things seem fine.
What isn't fine is half of the other armies ability to deal with knights, but that isn't exactly the knights fault. Nerfing knights to make them equal to the bad armies would just make them trash vs the good armies, and that doesn't help things.
Doesn't that forgeworld knight (atrapos sp?) get to bump it's invuln down to 3++ with 1 CP?
Either way they are a list based around spam at the same time GW seems to be trying to reduce spam (rule of 3). I hope it changes the meta but it just seems like they'll be another part of imperial soup (that I need a damned airbush to paint) or a gatekeeper list.
Lets make sure people understand that 3++ saves are pretty limited. It took your Warlord trait, a CP, (Or 3 CP if Dominus Class) and its still only against shooting.
There seems to be a great many times where the 2+ Heirloom save might make more sense as it will give you a that 5+ against those so many things even in HTH.
Ion shields is really powerful, but it has a lot of counterplay; particularly with all Knight lists. You just need to make sure to threaten more than one knight and you reduce a ton of value from the strat.
Imperial Guard are still winning GTs. I believe the Boise GT that was won last year with Ravenspam was won this year by pure IG with a Shadowsword.
Bottom line, IG might not win every event but that isn't because they aren't top tier, it's because other armies are also emerging as good. IG are STILL top tier. Knights are not top tier. You can imperium soup and make them stronger, but again, you'll struggle against armies that can control the board and win on objectives.
Of course if you're not playing ITC then yeah, they're OP when the 3++ works, and they're not when it doesn't. Simple really.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait and thus he would not be able to take the knight warlord trait with Grand Strategist and vice-versa. Also Kurov's Aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait. Also Kurov's aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.
No you can only have 1 warlord unless your custodes.
However Imperial Knight's can pay CP to gice additional models a warlord trait.
To behonest the more you say about his list the more it sounds like he went all out tournament strength list vrs Black Templars, that wasn't exactly called for.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait. Also Kurov's aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.
No you can only have 1 warlord unless your custodes.
However Imperial Knight's can pay CP to gice additional models a warlord trait.
To behonest the more you say about his list the more it sounds like he went all out tournament strength list vrs Black Templars, that wasn't exactly called for.
Yeah, he said his opponent was running a knight with the warlord trait that grants him 4++, AND an Imperial guard officer with the grand strategist warlord trait... which is illegal. Also apparently multiple copies of Kurov's Aquila?
Imperial knights can have 1 warlord and 2 additional models witg warlord traits via strategum.
Or yoy can have an Imperial guard warlord and still have 2 knights with warlord traits for 3 CP which it sounds like he did.
One guard commander had the aquilla relic. The other had the grand strategist warlord trait. Then the knights had one warlord trait and at least one relic.
Btw we played itc and it did not help me at all. I maxed titan slayer, but only got one other secondary point for recon. Many of the itc secondaries were impossible. The mission was the short side against short side deploy so there was no room to spread out and attack. I played a staggered defense from the front line to the rear of my deployment, but it was not nearly enough.
In retrospect I think assult terminators could have heped, with their hammers and shields.
Gitdakka wrote: One guard commander had the aquilla relic. The other had the grand strategist warlord trait. Then the knights had one warlord trait and at least one relic.
Btw we played itc and it did not help me at all. I maxed titan slayer, but only got one other secondary point for recon. Many of the itc secondaries were impossible. The mission was the short side against short side deploy so there was no room to spread out and attack. I played a staggered defense from the front line to the rear of my deployment, but it was not nearly enough.
In retrospect I think assult terminators could have leped, with their hammers and shields.
He is playing with atleast 2 warlord traits for 3 CP from what I can gather as a knights player. And probably 2 relics for another 3CP thats 6CP down that can't be grand strategisted. But he still has 8 plus kurov's, the CP farm strikes again for imbalance.
The problem with terminators is that a knight will just walk away from them if they don't make that charge out of deepstrike, so turn 2 drop earliest, not to mention they are currently points costed like they are made of unobtainum and only hit on 4+
Marmatag wrote: Imperial Guard are still winning GTs. I believe the Boise GT that was won last year with Ravenspam was won this year by pure IG with a Shadowsword.
Bottom line, IG might not win every event but that isn't because they aren't top tier, it's because other armies are also emerging as good. IG are STILL top tier. Knights are not top tier. You can imperium soup and make them stronger, but again, you'll struggle against armies that can control the board and win on objectives.
Of course if you're not playing ITC then yeah, they're OP when the 3++ works, and they're not when it doesn't. Simple really.
You do realize of course that there are a number of knights list getting in top 8 - i believe two tied for 6th place in that very tournament.
Just because one didn't win that precise tournament doesn't mean they aren't competitive. I don't think we can play the "not competitive in ITC" card here. Of course its still early and the meta has to shift to account for the new lists but at this point - very relevant for competitive play.
Also while not a pure knights list the flying monkey GT had one in the winning list (I think):
Catachan Jungle Fighters
Super Heavy Auxiliary
Knight Castellan: Plasma Decimator, Volcano Lance
BA Battalion
Mephiston
Captain w/ jump pack, thunder hammer, and storm shield
Captain w/ jump pack, thunder hammer, and storm shield
5 scouts with bolters, sergeant with storm bolter
5 scouts with bolters, sergeant with storm bolter
5 scouts with bolters
3 Aggressors w/ auto boltstorm gauntlets, fragstorm grenade launchers
Galas wrote: At last people realizes how busted hellhounds are. I have been saying it since day obe, but people was too busy with manticores and ibfantry squads.
Hellhounds actually used to be d2 on their main flamer and got nerfed in the codex.
I would have actually preferred to see the d2 stay and have them just receive a points increase.
Galas wrote: At last people realizes how busted hellhounds are. I have been saying it since day obe, but people was too busy with manticores and ibfantry squads.
Unless you can run and shoot dark lances with it but that's not about Knights so whatever.
-------
Just faced a soup army with 4 Knights and guardsmen squads that were just there to give command points. I'm pure dark eldar and after firing about 12 blasters and 6 dark lances at one of em i got zero wounds. Didn't even scratch off the paint. He only had to command re-roll once. He also got first turn.
I wonder if i'm doing something wrong but the guy i played against is known for bringing the stupidest lists he can come up with. Sigh if only i had the money to buy what i need. Maybe i should buy second-hand.
--------
Also holy crap they need to get rid of Soup lists even harder than they already have. It's just not fun to play against with a pure army of just one faction. That or maybe i just won't play anybody that can't have just one faction in their army.
LunarSol wrote: Ion shields is really powerful, but it has a lot of counterplay; particularly with all Knight lists. You just need to make sure to threaten more than one knight and you reduce a ton of value from the strat.
Wouldn't that put more of our stuff in threat range and possibly melee range of all the other knights? Each can take so much firepower on its own. Dividing my anti-tank to go after different targets means it's still only taking off so much from any one knight. When i just fought against knights he still had a good 3 and a half knights of his 4 left and a lot of guardsmen left. I don't think splitting fire will help that much. I did hear dark eldar don't handle Knights well though.
Perhaps if i use Agents of Vect but i'm not sure i'd want to get rid of obsidian rose sub-faction trait just for that. It helps trueborn a lot.
Ice_can wrote: He is playing with atleast 2 warlord traits for 3 CP from what I can gather as a knights player. And probably 2 relics for another 3CP thats 6CP down that can't be grand strategisted. But he still has 8 plus kurov's, the CP farm strikes again for imbalance.
Wait, let me get this straight, there is a knight stratagem that allows multiple units to have warlord traits? Is this only restricted to knights? Or can you have say, units from three different factions all taking warlord traits?
Gitdakka wrote: I battled against imperial knights yesterday with my black templars. There was one of the new big ones with 100 guns, three melee standard knights. then 180pts of imperial guard for +5cp and a custodes captain flying around causing havoc and being untargetable. I think what provided the main challange was all the pregame relics and traits the knights could take. One had a permanent 2+ armour save for one CP. The big shooty one had permanent 4+ iv for some CP. they all move 12 and their advance gets +2 and could advance and charge. also they reroll everything in melee regardless if they have attacked or are being attacked. The strategem providing +1 iv save was really hard to deal with.
I think it would have felt more fair of they had no access to all the strategems and reroll stuff. Now I know I'm handicapping myself by my army choice so I don't expect to be able to win. Still 3+iv save on t8 with 28 wounds feels quite unmanageable without list tailoring.
Needless to say I got wiped out but at least I took one of the knights down
Note that he spent whopping 6 CP to get all of that...
And one trick to beating that 3++ is a) not target that 4++ until needed b) start firing with least important weapon that still knight would benefit from +1 inv save. Then if he pops it target other knight. 1CP(or 3 if for biggest knight) wasted. Hah. He might have rolled 5 or 6 to inv save to begin with so it doesn't even cost you and then you are free to bombard other knight at will. Or if he doesn't you get to hit 5++ with several lascannons until he pops it.
Oh and if the big shooty one(presumably castellan or valiant) had the 4++ then it will cost 3CP to bump inv to 3++. Even with CP battery from IG that's 3 out of 8 he has left to begin game with. With charge after advance if he was silly enough to go T1 charge even less CP to spend with. He'll hate you for making him spend 3CP and then switch to 5++ knight instead.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
Did he pop the 3++ for first shot? If yes then it's your fault for bombarding the 3++ with your entire army when you should have switched target. Why bombard toughest target when you could go for softer target while making him waste CP he's hard pressed.
Oh and btw how he had custodian captain on bike? Did he have more custodians or did he waste 1CP to bring lone captain?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jcd386 wrote: I think it's pretty clearly the best warlord trait for a single knight, and something that will be included in every multi knight list.
You can also take it and the 2+.
Yes but then again every codex has "must have" warlord traits. About only difference is knights can actually take others. Which I think could be widened to others. As it is codex is now bloody good if it has TWO warlord traits that you might use. Generally it's 1 you see in every list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gitdakka wrote: That wont be as big of an issue as I have my land raider crusader pimp wagon to ride into battle, as is the standard for black templars.
Of course land raiders being fairly inefficient for points maybe that's one issue you are having...You are fielding weak list against maxed out knight list. If you field fluffy list vs competive min maxed list you will be in trouble. Knights or not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flamingkillamajig wrote: Just faced a soup army with 4 Knights and guardsmen squads that were just there to give command points. I'm pure dark eldar and after firing about 12 blasters and 6 dark lances at one of em i got zero wounds. Didn't even scratch off the paint. He only had to command re-roll once. He also got first turn.
If your dice hates you not much what you can do...Even without any rerolls whatsoever on those shots that's 4-5 through 5++ which should be one knight over half damaged.
Dividing my anti-tank to go after different targets means it's still only taking off so much from any one knight. When i just fought against knights he still had a good 3 and a half knights of his 4 left and a lot of guardsmen left. I don't think splitting fire will help that much. I did hear dark eldar don't handle Knights well though..
Dark eldars handle knights just fine as my poor knights found out. As for splitting it depends where. If you fire, he pops +1 inv save, you still keep firing and THEN later split yeah that's bad.
But you fire say 1 dark lance toward knight, knight player thinks "oh wow he's going to head for this knight" and pops the +1 inv save then short of something like 6 damage which might make you reconsider it's 100% valid idea to switch it. For starters you might miss. Or fail to wound. Or he could save with inv save(maybe with 5 or 6 so +1 inv didn't even matter). Or you could roll 1 for damage. Either way you now have undamaged or nearly undamaged knight with +1 inv save. Standard case is it's no longer worth firing at it but instead hit one of the other knights with 5++. If you keep firing at it you have maximized effect of the CP(or 3 in case of big knight) he spent for +1. If you switch target that CP was wasted. He can't protect another knight with it even if he has 1000000 CP
Ice_can wrote: He is playing with atleast 2 warlord traits for 3 CP from what I can gather as a knights player. And probably 2 relics for another 3CP thats 6CP down that can't be grand strategisted. But he still has 8 plus kurov's, the CP farm strikes again for imbalance.
Wait, let me get this straight, there is a knight stratagem that allows multiple units to have warlord traits? Is this only restricted to knights? Or can you have say, units from three different factions all taking warlord traits?
Yes there's exalted court. 1 CP for 1 knight, 3 for 2. Makes knight a character with all the benefits it is and also gives him warlord trait. However he does not count as your warlord.
I think with knights, people at least feel like they have a chance, because most lists bring some sort of heavy support. Maybe you will get some lucky rolls, he gets some unlucky saves, and you still manage to blow up a knight. And then you can play objectives with the rest of your army. Maybe you will still lose in the end, but its a maybe.
But say you are facing some 200 model horde army. Turns take forever, plus all your fancy toys you brought are doing nothing because they are killing cheap models (and there's another 199 more on the table). And he is winning the objective game to boot.
Ask me if I rather face an all knight army, or an all horde army, and I know what my answer will be.
Knights have some obvious weakness. They are super low model count, so its really hard for them to play objectives. IG on the other hand, was already good before the codex, and after the codex, they were super good. I struggle to see what weakness IG has. Their stuff are cheap in points, they can field hordes, they have CP coming out of their ears, they can play the objective game easily, and they can field super shooty stuff too, some of which don't even need line of sight, and their strategems, traits and such boosts all their strengths to further levels. They are mobile too (have you seen an infantry squad move under the orders of move move move? the distance is breathtaking).
So what's their weakness? Their fragility? Is a horde of infantry really that much more fragile than say a squad of terminators? A knight is gonna have a lot more trouble killing a bunch of 40 conscripts compared to a squad of terminators. And Bullgryn aren't fragile by any means either.
They have been hurt a lot by post-IG codex flood of things that can make 30" inch charges without breaking a sweat. Then when enemy surrounds 1 model and whole squad can't fall back IG has habit of simply kneeling down and dying.
Which is why you don't see IG dominating any more. IG as part of soup meanwhile is still very common.
Between Exalted Court, Cognis Stubbers, Ironhail stubbers, Heirlooms of the House Hold, and sally forth, I think Knights can spend the most CP before a battle even starts.
Not super useful, but it might be one way to screw over people who are trying to CP farm from you.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait. Also Kurov's aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.
No you can only have 1 warlord unless your custodes.
However Imperial Knight's can pay CP to gice additional models a warlord trait.
To behonest the more you say about his list the more it sounds like he went all out tournament strength list vrs Black Templars, that wasn't exactly called for.
Aren't you firmly in the space marines are fine camp?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: They have been hurt a lot by post-IG codex flood of things that can make 30" inch charges without breaking a sweat. Then when enemy surrounds 1 model and whole squad can't fall back IG has habit of simply kneeling down and dying.
Which is why you don't see IG dominating any more. IG as part of soup meanwhile is still very common.
This is false at least here in America; IG are still winning GTs. But we play ITC not BRB.
All those things are pretty hard to keep track of as the game has started. He got to use the shield strategem 3 times as he had kurovs aquilla and grand strategist the guard commanders, and after those three rounds the game was pretty much over.
I think he had an illegal list. Aren't you only allowed to take one warlord trait? Grand strategist is an AM warlord trait. Also Kurov's aquila is a relic and thus can only be taken once. Sounds like your opponent was cheating.
No you can only have 1 warlord unless your custodes.
However Imperial Knight's can pay CP to gice additional models a warlord trait.
To behonest the more you say about his list the more it sounds like he went all out tournament strength list vrs Black Templars, that wasn't exactly called for.
Aren't you firmly in the space marines are fine camp?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: They have been hurt a lot by post-IG codex flood of things that can make 30" inch charges without breaking a sweat. Then when enemy surrounds 1 model and whole squad can't fall back IG has habit of simply kneeling down and dying.
Which is why you don't see IG dominating any more. IG as part of soup meanwhile is still very common.
This is false at least here in America; IG are still winning GTs. But we play ITC not BRB.
Nope I've never been in that camp since CA , having multiple armies just means I don't have to keep trying to forcing marines to work.
Going from Marine gunline to tau is like playing on easy mode in comparison aslong as you can keep assualt units out. Or bait people into charging more than they should. My marines might make it back to the table with my knights but solo they need all the FW help they can get.
