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Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 19:53:28


Post by: Mr Morden


Its something I have been thinkning about with the ongoing Brexit situtation.

I personally have always felt closer to the US - maybe its the shared language or culture but it has always seemed more familiar and understandable.

I like plenty of European things but despite the geographical reality its always seemed much more foreign - that could mean exotic - like my interest in Japanese culture, martial arts, history and language.

Does anyone else feel the same or indeed the opposite?

Just pondering really.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:00:04


Post by: Da Boss


Yes, I absolutely feel European. I have felt strongly European ever since I became politically aware. I strongly remember the introduction of the Euro in my country and seeing the coins from other countries and feeling part of something much bigger.

In school we learn Irish and English, and then a third european language. You can't get into Uni without the three. So everyone is at least aware of other languages and has learned at least 1 european one in school.

I live in Germany now, but I was a very committed European before I ever made the move.

I've always found it strange (and annoying) over the years when British people talk about Europe as being foreign, or them not being part of Europe. It would be like Japanese people claiming they are not Asian.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:08:27


Post by: Mr Morden


Cool.

How do you feel about the US? Is your European feeling also cultural?



Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:12:14


Post by: Overread


 Mr Morden wrote:
Its something I have been thinkning about with the ongoing Brexit situtation.

I personally have always felt closer to the US - maybe its the shared language or culture but it has always seemed more familiar and understandable.



It probably has more to do with the fact that the UK media has a heavy bias for the USA and reports very little on what happens in Europe in comparison. As a result the UK can feel closer to the USA because we just hear about the USA a lot lot more than any other country. The shared language does also make casual awareness easier, but don't forget most European countries learn English as a second language, so its not that huge a divide.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:12:36


Post by: Iron_Captain


I definitely feel European.
I also feel Crimean, Russian and Dutch. Unsurprisingly, those are the identities I grew up with. I have never felt Ukrainian, despite having lived there for a good part of my life (the Crimea was not a very Ukrainian part of Ukraine).
The US is definitely familiar, and I love US culture, but there is too much about it that is very different from Europe to make me feel close to it.
I also lived in England and Scotland for a bit, and to me Britain definitely feels closer to Europe than to the US. I mean, it is sorta in-between, but the way people think and interact with each other feels closer to Europe. Then again, I am getting all of my knowledge of the US from pop culture, the internet and the news, so my view of the US may be a little off. I have never actually been to the US, even though I have family over there.

I guess it helps if you speak the language. I speak Russian, English, French and German (and Dutch), which is all the major languages of Europe. I can talk to almost everyone in Europe. That definitely helps with a European feeling. I imagine there is also a big difference between people who have grown up moving between different countries and those who have lived their entire life in only one country.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:15:49


Post by: Maréchal des Logis Walter


I feel European. I love est europe, Germany, while being french. All of us we share some basic ways of thinking, live close to one another, and it is absolutly a waste that most europeans don't actually show any interests for their neighbours.

The feeling of being truly european, of imagining an european mother over our nations, and thus to have our interests converge, is not widespread enough: poeple either hate europe or mostly can't be bother to even think about it.

I feel European before everything, french, but european, and I wish Europe would emancipate from the US and China who have such an influence, while we don't want to defend our interests, by building its forces in every sectors, be it economy, military, technology and by becoming a federal state. I regard Europe as a wonderful place even if we are not perfect, for us europeans, europe should always prevail when it comes to politics: that the nuclear submarines of my country should be bought by the US, so that we can no longer maintain them on our own, is for exampke not acceptable and should never have been.

However english is not in my opinion an actual gateway - it invades other languages, and it is not even the most actually widespread one as far as cultures -and will be even less with britain leaving-. German and French are number ones for the matter, but we should be able to learn next to any of european languages, not just that english.

I follow the Général de Gaulle who never wanted the british to join -too american, and I'll be entirely honest, I'm glad they're leaving. I don't know how that'll turn out for them, but they have contributed such a great deal to freeze the european construction by even more blocking what we french had already and stupidly made fail- european defense, that would bring a whole range of shared responsibilities for every country- and have it become a mere economic thing. On the other hand he wanted to try and built cooperation with our Russian neighbour, but the lack of will from both Europe to tell the US off and commit to actual discussions is killing it.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:18:53


Post by: Yodhrin


Maybe it's a Scottish thing(Auld Alliance and all that) but frankly I feel more European than British, nevermind how it relates to America which is and always has been a very one-sided "relationship" at least politically.

I have a laundry list of problems with the EU, but identity was never one of them. Then again, we're all coloured by our experiences, and mine were holidays in France as a kid where a token effort at speaking the language and "Ecosse" were sufficient to get a warm and friendly welcome, while holidays down to visit family in England(in the late 90's mind) was an endless procession of "LOL Jock" nonsense about kilts and haggis and did we have running water and indoor toilets, off everybody from friends of said family to random bus drivers and newsagents, so it's possible I'm a bit biased

I always found the whole "island nation, stiff upper lip, land of hope & glory" stuff pretty naff anyway of course, while a lot of folk seem to put genuine stock in the idea that Britain is somehow unique and special and different, not like them foreign savages from "the continent" eh wot wot. I put it down to cultural leftovers from the various propaganda campaigns conducted over the centuries by the monarchy to get the proles fired up to go and fight some war of plunder or pride, as well as the national mythologising that went on in the wake of WW2.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:25:54


Post by: Mr Morden


Some good points - I must admit gave up on the BBC as primary news some time ago - tend to flick between Al Jezera, Sky and RT...
I imagine there is also a big difference between people who have grown up moving between different countries and those who have lived their entire life in only one country.


Yeah thats true - only been to Europe once, never felt the need to go again. I speak a bit of German and more Japanese but seldom use.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:41:20


Post by: Da Boss


Mr Morden: You live in Europe.

I have a pretty strong connection to America as well - of course. They are the English language cultural juggernaught. I grew up reading American comic books, watching hollywood movies and old sitcoms. I love Dungeons and Dragons and so on.

So I am fond of America. But my values are very much not American values. I am a collectivist, a statist, and staunchly non-interventionist. I do not believe in unrestricted individual freedom and see the "American Dream" as a con to keep the middle and working classes from uniting against those who exploit us.

Definitely nowadays, with what is happening in the US, and frankly from about the time of the invasion of Iraq, I have felt more distant from America, more suspicious and critical of it's role in the world, and more in favour of a federal Europe.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:41:50


Post by: Marxist artist


As a scot I am scottish first, British second then European, although I like Europe and wish to remAin part of the EU, I feel there is a huge gulf between their points of view and interests and ours.
I do feel our interests are more inline with the US, although not at present due to their current leadership.

I won't explain why as this is not a political discussion thread.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 20:47:49


Post by: Knight


What does it mean to feel European? What are the subjects that would prompt (meant in a positive way) such feelings and thoughts inside of someone?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 21:21:43


Post by: Jadenim


I definitely feel European. My experience with the US (which I like a lot BTW), is that although we have a shared language, our cultures are actually much more different than compared to other European nations; social welfare, healthcare, environmental attitudes and relationships to the rest of the world are substantially different.

I’d be curious to hear what some of the Canadian posters have to say; I haven’t spent much time there, but I get the impression that they are much closer to European values.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 22:26:33


Post by: notprop


In a word, no.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/06/30 22:59:16


Post by: Mario


Kinda yes but I also feel like an earthling too. This quote explains it better than I could:
You develop an instant global consciousness, a people orientation, an intense dissatisfaction with the state of the world, and a compulsion to do something about it. From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, "Look at that, you son of a bitch."
— Mitchell on seeing the Earth from the Moon


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 01:21:41


Post by: nou


As I'm from Poland, I find it very hard to feel European, our history is just too messed up. I'm old enough to have a childhood under the soviet occupation, then high school and first love in a fully sovereign state that just regained independency after 50 years and now adulthood in an outer and largely disregarded province of "bigger Europe". After such rollercoaster and in times of Brexit and one European structural crisis after another it is really unnatural for me to have personal belief in any lasting continuity. From where I stand EU is just a "passing fancy" and will eventually give way to something entirely different - that instability of the state runs very deep in my generation, but is significantly different in newer ones.

Culturally, our history also makes any kind of identification very hard - we still struggle to regain our own cultural integrity after Partitions and soviet era. Ask a person from Warsaw, Cracow, Gdańsk, Poznań and Wrocław about history of Poland and everyone will tell you something largely or even entirely different. With such history it is only natural, that feeling european comes second to feeling polish.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 10:02:28


Post by: Cheesecat


 Maréchal des Logis Walter wrote:
However english is not in my opinion an actual gateway - it invades other languages, and it is not even the most actually widespread one as far as cultures -and will be even less with britain leaving-. German and French are number ones for the matter, but we should be able to learn next to any of european languages, not just that english.

French Speaking Countries: 31
English Speaking Countries: 61 (what I counted, so might not be exact)
German Speaking Countries: 6

Looks like more countries have English as their official language than French or German so I don't know what you're talking about, unless you mean Europe only but your post doesn't make that clear (you just say cultures which in that case your statement is clearly untrue), because from a

global perspective that statement is not correct more people, more countries speak English (1.12 billion people) over French (284.9 million) and German (132.0 million).

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_entities_where_French_is_an_official_language
https://www.myenglishpages.com/site_php_files/reading-english-speaking-countries.php
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_entities_where_German_is_an_official_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 10:26:00


Post by: Mr Morden


 Da Boss wrote:
Mr Morden: You live in Europe.

I have a pretty strong connection to America as well - of course. They are the English language cultural juggernaught. I grew up reading American comic books, watching hollywood movies and old sitcoms. I love Dungeons and Dragons and so on.

So I am fond of America. But my values are very much not American values. I am a collectivist, a statist, and staunchly non-interventionist. I do not believe in unrestricted individual freedom and see the "American Dream" as a con to keep the middle and working classes from uniting against those who exploit us.

Definitely nowadays, with what is happening in the US, and frankly from about the time of the invasion of Iraq, I have felt more distant from America, more suspicious and critical of it's role in the world, and more in favour of a federal Europe.


Culture and Politics are related but different - There are definately powerful European figures with similar views to the current president of the US

Out of interest do you conisder all of Europe as European or only the EU, for instance is Russia European? It is there geographically but like others not a member of the EU?

I feel European before everything, french, but european, and I wish Europe would emancipate from the US and China who have such an influence, while we don't want to defend our interests, by building its forces in every sectors, be it economy, military, technology and by becoming a federal state. I regard Europe as a wonderful place even if we are not perfect, for us europeans, europe should always prevail when it comes to politics: that the nuclear submarines of my country should be bought by the US, so that we can no longer maintain them on our own, is for exampke not acceptable and should never have been.
Most European nations have relyed on the US and NATO - mainly the former, to defend them and keep the peace for mroe than 60 years - I kinda get the frustration that the US feels that perhaps the other rich nations of the West should pull their weight more? France has been notably doing so much more in recent years in conjunction mainly with the US and UK although the results are variable.

However english is not in my opinion an actual gateway - it invades other languages, and it is not even the most actually widespread one as far as cultures -and will be even less with britain leaving-. German and French are number ones for the matter, but we should be able to learn next to any of european languages, not just that english.


Isn't the old adage that French is the langauge of Diplomacy and English that of commerce? English is a hugely useful language in the wider world - most of the powerful nations of the world do have it as at least a secnd langauge - that may change?

I follow the Général de Gaulle who never wanted the british to join -too american, and I'll be entirely honest, I'm glad they're leaving. I don't know how that'll turn out for them, but they have contributed such a great deal to freeze the european construction by even more blocking what we french had already and stupidly made fail- european defense, that would bring a whole range of shared responsibilities for every country- and have it become a mere economic thing. On the other hand he wanted to try and built cooperation with our Russian neighbour, but the lack of will from both Europe to tell the US off and commit to actual discussions is killing it.

Russia is a often used bogeyman - although they are often just doing the usual things that powerful nations do. Didn;t De Gaulle oppose a trurly Federal Europe and his issues with uk and USa in the Second World War are well known.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 11:31:47


Post by: nfe


Yes and no. I don’t feel any particular connection to any anthropological divisions of the world. I feel European in the sense that I happened to be born in Europe, and I feel a familiarity with and am comfortable within dominant strains of European cultural motifs, but I don’t feel attached to it as a sociopolitical entity - the same goes for the UK and Scotland, though.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 11:38:46


Post by: Momotaro


Scot living in England here, and I manage to feel Scottish, British and European.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 12:45:40


Post by: Steelmage99


I am Danish.

I feel more Nordic, than I feel European.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 12:56:12


Post by: mrhappyface


I was brought up in a household with strong ties to the military and great national pride, I was always brought up as being British and I still refer to myself as British today.

I don't have any real kinship with Europe, I've been all over Britain and wherever I go I feel at home but no matter where I go in Europe, it only ever feels like I'm on holiday. I could never see myself living in Europe and calling myself a European.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 13:57:45


Post by: Da Boss


mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 13:58:13


Post by: ValentineGames


I'm English.
Europe can shove itself.
I have zero connection to Europe and cannot stand some foreign power creating our rules and demanding money for the 'privilege' while not giving a gak about bigger issues like immigration.
Can't wait til Brexit actually kicks in and we can leave hitlers dream


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 13:58:58


Post by: Da Boss


This is so weird. It is a literal denial of reality.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:00:29


Post by: djones520


 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:03:02


Post by: Da Boss


...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:06:44


Post by: mrhappyface


 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:07:42


Post by: ValentineGames


 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

The question wasn't are you European it was do you feel European.
And I certainly do not and never want to.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:11:15


Post by: Da Boss


Mainland Europe and Ireland, please. We very much consider ourselves European.

I think you guys are more culturally European than American, but that is an outsider's perspective. You have much more in common with Germany or France than you do with America, outside of language.

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:15:07


Post by: Slinky


I don't really feel European as such, what happens "on the continent" has always felt like a separate entity.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:20:39


Post by: ValentineGames


 Da Boss wrote:

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

it’s one size fits all mentality .
the financial problems brought about by the Euro.
It's non democratic with officials that are bureaucrats not elected by the people with no interest in the people.
red tape that the EU bureaucrats think is the answer to everything.
Thd move toward a federal European superstate.
Being beholden to foreign powers.
Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.
Being forced to take in immigrants when your country has no room and the people don't want them.

Heck the basic foundation of the European union was created by nazi Germany


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:21:58


Post by: Galas


My family from Canary Islands think of themselves as european even as I insist to them that they are african

Myself? I think of myself in this order :Galician->Galaico-portuguese->Spanish->Hispanic->European.

I feel more conected with central and south america that with everything northerm of the pirinees, not only because of the lenguage, but because our social values are much closer.
Im more a Conquistador guy than a Knight one if you know what I mean.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:29:04


Post by: Da Boss


ValentineGames wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

it’s one size fits all mentality .
the financial problems brought about by the Euro.
It's non democratic with officials that are bureaucrats not elected by the people with no interest in the people.
red tape that the EU bureaucrats think is the answer to everything.
Thd move toward a federal European superstate.
Being beholden to foreign powers.
Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.
Being forced to take in immigrants when your country has no room and the people don't want them.


One size fits all mentality - and this does not apply to the UK, where Scotland and Northern Ireland voted not to have brexit but get it anyway?
Financial problems brought about by the Euro - but what about the finanicial problems solved by the Euro?
Non democratic - Your head of state is a heriditary monarchy and you have the biggest unelected house in Europe. The Commissioners are appointed by democratically elected government, the MEPs are directly elected and the presidents are appointed by the biggest groups in Parliament, in exactly the same way as the UK does it.
Red Tape - and the UK does not have Red Tape? I lived there, and I'm shaking my head at this one.
Federal European Superstate - fair enough, though that sounds awesome to me.
Being beholden to Foreign Powers- As one of the big three decision makers in the EU, you were able to make others beholden to YOU. Now, as an outsider, you will be more beholden to foreign powers than ever. Welcome to not being a world superpower anymore. Scotland and Northern Ireland are beholden to Westminster even though many of the people living there consider it a "foreign power".
Laws you must follow - is that not the case in every country?
Being forced to take in immigrants - so do you mean European migrants? If so, your government had options to limit the number who came which they did not use, their own fault. If it is asylum seekers, I think the UK should take the lion's share actually, given that they were so gung ho in blowing the crap out of Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:29:31


Post by: mrhappyface


 Da Boss wrote:
Mainland Europe and Ireland, please. We very much consider ourselves European.

I think you guys are more culturally European than American, but that is an outsider's perspective. You have much more in common with Germany or France than you do with America, outside of language.

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

I don't consider us culturally close to America either. Britain has always been an island, we've always been rivals with France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, etc. We've also been at odds with both America and Island, and while we have some rivalry with Europe, I've known people in Britain to actually hate Americans or Irish.

We're closer to Europe than America but there are very few British people who would ever introduce themselves as European and would even correct people who called them European.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:30:35


Post by: Da Boss


mrhappyface: I just find that deeply weird, as I doubt a Japanese person would object to being called Asian, or a person from Madagascar would object to being called African.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:30:56


Post by: Galas


Another Brexit thread. Great!


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:31:57


Post by: Da Boss


Sorry! I think a thread started by a British person asking if you feel European in 2018 always has that undertone.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:33:37


Post by: Steelmage99


 djones520 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.


But there is a unified European culture? I think not!


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:35:25


Post by: djones520


Steelmage99 wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.


But there is a unified European culture? I think not!


Finish reading what I typed...


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:36:27


Post by: Da Boss


But I mean, is there a unified US culture, or even a unified French culture? Labels always allow for some contradiction, some shades of grey, and some push and pull.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:37:29


Post by: mrhappyface


 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: I just find that deeply weird, as I doubt a Japanese person would object to being called Asian, or a person from Madagascar would object to being called African.

But European has different connotations now that there is a unifying European state. If China, Russia, Korea 1 & 2, etc. started an Asian Union and Japan was apposed to that, they may well object to being called Asian.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:38:06


Post by: Marxist artist


[quote=ValentineGames 759667 10046433

Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.


Emmm. All laws must be followed whether in uk or not and whether you think they are good or not.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:38:22


Post by: djones520


 Da Boss wrote:
But I mean, is there a unified US culture, or even a unified French culture? Labels always allow for some contradiction, some shades of grey, and some push and pull.


There is, but we also have many sub-cultures. Our unified culture is often buried, but whenever the nation as a whole is impacted, it comes out strong. Just look at us in the time immediately following 9/11.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:39:50


Post by: Steelmage99


 djones520 wrote:
Steelmage99 wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


The discussion is about a unified culture. There is no unified Asian culture, or a unified African culture, or North American culture. While Europe is in a unique position that one does seem to be growing, you certainly don't get to tell other people whether or not they are a part of it.


But there is a unified European culture? I think not!


Finish reading what I typed...


I get the point you are making. We are talking about culture - not just our geographical location.
I also get that you (generic "you") don't get to dictate whether a person is part of a given culture.

I am questioning you assertion that there is a unified European culture (or that one is growing).



Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:41:47


Post by: nfe


ValentineGames wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:

Why the animosity though? What is so awful about Europe?

it’s one size fits all mentality .
the financial problems brought about by the Euro.
It's non democratic with officials that are bureaucrats not elected by the people with no interest in the people.
red tape that the EU bureaucrats think is the answer to everything.
Thd move toward a federal European superstate.
Being beholden to foreign powers.
Laws you MUST follow even if you disagree and not for the good of the people.
Being forced to take in immigrants when your country has no room and the people don't want them.


Your problems seem to be with the political entity of the EU, rather than the geopolitical unit called Europe or the diverse-but-interwoven cultural blocks that characterise it. Do you feel no cultural ties to Europe or do you simply dislike its largest political institution?

Heck the basic foundation of the European union was created by nazi Germany


As in it was the response of the European parties that defeated it?



Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:42:44


Post by: Da Boss


A lot of the basic foundation of the European union was created by Britain actually.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 14:51:35


Post by: Formosa


ValentineGames wrote:
I'm English.
Europe can shove itself.
I have zero connection to Europe and cannot stand some foreign power creating our rules and demanding money for the 'privilege' while not giving a gak about bigger issues like immigration.
Can't wait til Brexit actually kicks in and we can leave hitlers dream


By that logic you hate the US too and China, since thier actions and “rules” have a direct impact on our lives, economic crash anyone?

Also WE as in the U.K. created a hell of a lot of the rules that Govern the EU, the very rules they ask us to abide by... such cads those Europeans.

Look I get that you want brexit to go through, so do I, I just want it out of the way so we can get on with our lives and pick up the pieces, but please stop making the rest of us look stupid and go and educate yourself about the history of the EU before you spout more daily mail bollocks.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:10:57


Post by: Mr Morden


 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


Is Russia European is still a interesting question I hoped you might answer? Do you feel that its all European nations are "one" as defined by Geography or just those in the EU?

I don't really feel European as such, what happens "on the continent" has always felt like a separate entity.


I would agree with this - Its kind what I feel - for wahtever reason I look more West than East - its certinaly simpler.

I also find interesting that we have a British and US Politics thread bnut not a European or EU or whatever.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:19:18


Post by: Da Boss


I was thinking about starting an EU politics thread, but thought that I might try some threads discussing individual issues such as the Roma Census first. Given the weak response to that thread, I am not sure that a European politics thread would take off at all.

As to Russia, I think Russia is an interesting case. It is certainly geographically close to Europe, but it is so massive and has had a seperate political identity and geopolitical goals for so long that I consider it seperately. I think I would consider the parts of Russia close to the West to be geographically in Europe, in the same way Istanbul is, but once you cross a certain line you are in Asia. Russia straddles both.

I feel that all European nations have things in common, something like a common culture, but I think those within the EU are obviously more part of that common culture than those outside. Since Britain has been a big player in the EU since it joined, and has had a strong influence on the common European culture, I find it really weird that so many Britons do not consider themselves European.

Edit: Also I am not sure the poor Mods would thank me for giving them another thread to moderate


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:29:10


Post by: oldravenman3025


 Overread wrote:
 Mr Morden wrote:
Its something I have been thinkning about with the ongoing Brexit situtation.

I personally have always felt closer to the US - maybe its the shared language or culture but it has always seemed more familiar and understandable.



It probably has more to do with the fact that the UK media has a heavy bias for the USA and reports very little on what happens in Europe in comparison. As a result the UK can feel closer to the USA because we just hear about the USA a lot lot more than any other country. The shared language does also make casual awareness easier, but don't forget most European countries learn English as a second language, so its not that huge a divide.




Well, the United States is a former British colony (the original 13 States and eastern territories/Oregon territory) and is an Anglosphere nation. You see something similar here with the ongoing facsination with the Royal Family, and pride in 18th Century British influence/culture in the former colonies (even in areas that were formerly Dutch or settled heavily by Germans).


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:37:05


Post by: Yodhrin


 Mr Morden wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
mrhappyface: You are european though. Are Japanese people not Asian?


Is Russia European is still a interesting question I hoped you might answer? Do you feel that its all European nations are "one" as defined by Geography or just those in the EU?

I don't really feel European as such, what happens "on the continent" has always felt like a separate entity.


I would agree with this - Its kind what I feel - for wahtever reason I look more West than East - its certinaly simpler.

I also find interesting that we have a British and US Politics thread bnut not a European or EU or whatever.


I mean, that's a function of the news as well though isn't it. What's actually telling is that the only dedicated Europe-focused current affairs show on UK television was(I can't speak to the last four years as I no longer have a TV license) Eòrpa, a Gaelic language show produced on a shoestring(though excellent) by BBC Alba that got a broadcast time on BBC2 on Saturday evenings at meal time(and I'm not even sure if that was nationwide, it could just have been BBC2 Scotland) to ensure as few folk as possible would watch it. America and American goings-on are a fairly constant presence in the evening news, but prior to the whole Brexit debacle Europe was only ever a feature when there was some kind of political strife(often overblown), salacious gossip about an EU politician, or as part of the newspaper review segments which in practice were a torrent of absolute garbage, lies, and misinformation since the print press outside of the Guardian and the Financial Times skew pretty heavily anti-EU and anti-immigration.

If you wanted to know what was happening "on the continent" you had to already have an active interest and purposefully go and seek out things like the English language versions of channels like France24, or find ways to watch Irish TV news online, while American news is doled out several times a week as part of the regular news cycle, so of course normal non-political wonk people feel European goings on are more distant feeling than America's.

I'll never get why Britain is so keen to be America's handbag-dog when we could have been an equal and major partner in Europe. I mean, I understand why, it's a hangover from the complete failure of Britain to deal with and move past the loss of the Empire that prevents many from acknowledging any other nation as an equal, let alone "the frogs" etc, I just don't understand why so few folk seem able to see it.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:37:42


Post by: Mr Morden


Not sure - I would think that Britian has had more influence on and had considerable influence from many far flung nations be they former Colonies or part of the old Empire or trading partners. When you look at nations such as Australia, India and the US - the continuing cultural transmission between us, back and forth seems higher than that with Europe which I think to not a few people many in the UK is associated with warfare.

I have only a passing interest and knowledge in US Politics but then again I probably know less about European - Do they have anything like the West Wing to draw interest in the workings if it? A thread might well draw my interest - I did read your Italian thread but didn;t really have anythng to contribute.

The cultural areas I do find of interest in mainland Europe (and again it’s a telling phrase that’s often used) tend to be older - ancient history through to Napoleonic are periods I have read more on.

As to Russia, I think Russia is an interesting case. It is certainly geographically close to Europe, but it is so massive and has had a seperate political identity and geopolitical goals for so long that I consider it seperately. I think I would consider the parts of Russia close to the West to be geographically in Europe, in the same way Istanbul is, but once you cross a certain line you are in Asia. Russia straddles both.


But you would then have the same issue with China and being Asian?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:39:07


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.


funny what 30 odd miles of water will do to

I don't feel particularly European but don't really feel any animosity or hostility towards it ( I save that for Cornwall)


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 16:39:22


Post by: Da Boss


Yodhrin: It's not even "could have been" - Britain was one of the most powerful countries in Europe and had a great position. Other countries really liked you guys.

That is broadly over now, sadly.

Edit: Turnip Jedi: Well, for Ireland, there is even more water between us and the continent, but we are very pro-Europe and have a strong European identity. So I don't think it can be explained by being an island alone.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 17:03:33


Post by: Turnip Jedi


maybe but given none of the EU powers have meddled with the same sort of spiteful and bloody bloodymindedness as the English I think there's an element of enemy of my enemy to consider there


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 17:06:09


Post by: Da Boss


I mean it's undeniably true that membership of the EU allowed us to get out from under Britain's shadow and trade on a more equitable footing. We all learn about the Economic War in history class and realize that outside the EU we'd be pushed around by the UK. (Indeed, early in the Brexit process you could see the UK trying to push us around, and it is only with the backing of our 26 friends in the EU that we have gotten our interests considered fairly by the UK).

We know we are better off in the EU as a partner with others rather than on our own where we are easily picked off by bigger powers. A lesson I fear the UK will learn sooner or later.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 18:08:58


Post by: jouso


 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.



There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 20:24:36


Post by: Mr Morden


 Da Boss wrote:
Yodhrin: It's not even "could have been" - Britain was one of the most powerful countries in Europe and had a great position. Other countries really liked you guys.

That is broadly over now, sadly.


Interesting - I guess that could be the lack of coverage/ interest on our behalf but that has never really come across to myself or many others, its always seemed us against the rest for the most part with occassional alliances for poltical reasons.

There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top


I did wonder about that.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 20:30:28


Post by: mrhappyface


jouso wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.



There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top

Are poles, Greeks, Finns and Portuguese that enthusiastic about a unified Europe? I know a Greek friend of mine says that they couldn't give a toss about European values, legislations, etc.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 21:01:14


Post by: Mario


mrhappyface wrote:Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU
That's just hilariously uniformed. The EU even regularly gives out money so some regions can restore their own cultural elements that would otherwise not be supported. They also support regional food specialities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

The EU is working on unifying regulations so that all those different regions can work together more easily but there's no forced cultural homogenisation. People from the north and south of Germany alone would laugh at your idea of an unified EU culture.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 21:06:30


Post by: mrhappyface


Mario wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU
That's just hilariously uniformed. The EU even regularly gives out money so some regions can restore their own cultural elements that would otherwise not be supported. They also support regional food specialities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

The EU is working on unifying regulations so that all those different regions can work together more easily but there's no forced cultural homogenisation. People from the north and south of Germany alone would laugh at your idea of an unified EU culture.

Because individual cultures of countries doesn't mean that there isn't also an over-arching culture.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 21:41:42


Post by: jouso


mrhappyface wrote:
jouso wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.



There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top

Are poles, Greeks, Finns and Portuguese that enthusiastic about a unified Europe? I know a Greek friend of mine says that they couldn't give a toss about European values, legislations, etc.


Individually you will find anything and everything. For the most part yes they do give a not always very enthusiastic toss.

Greece in particular seems to have an issue with regulations, though, European and otherwise.

mrhappyface wrote:
Mario wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU
That's just hilariously uniformed. The EU even regularly gives out money so some regions can restore their own cultural elements that would otherwise not be supported. They also support regional food specialities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

The EU is working on unifying regulations so that all those different regions can work together more easily but there's no forced cultural homogenisation. People from the north and south of Germany alone would laugh at your idea of an unified EU culture.

Because individual cultures of countries doesn't mean that there isn't also an over-arching culture.


Care to define it?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 23:05:46


Post by: Jadenim


A sense of continuity/deep history, going back at least to the Roman Empire, with strong regional identities that predate (and I would argue take precedence over) current nations.

Socialism with a small “s”, with welfare states and socialised healthcare and the view that government should restrain the excesses of the free market (very different to the US).

Embedded diversity from former imperial colonies (in Western Europe at least).

Shared artistic and architectural styles going forward from the Renaissance.

Football (the proper kind).


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/01 23:07:05


Post by: nou


I agree with jouso, that there is no such thing as "european culture" (other than the most broadly defined "sum of everything that was made within geographical boundaries of European continent").

And I must say, that I'm REALLY surprised with some posters not being aware that there is hardly any uniformity between western european countries and post-soviet block countries. Or that there is still very clearly visible split between historically catholic and protestant european countries. This continent has a 2k years long history of differences between countries and nations that didn't simply vanished after EU was founded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Jadenim wrote:
A sense of continuity/deep history, going back at least to the Roman Empire, with strong regional identities that predate (and I would argue take precedence over) current nations.


If you can call a history of conflicts a common culture... Take Napoleonic wars as an example - Napoleon is regarded as a savior not a tyrant or agressor in Poland, because we briefly ended up with a sovereign state of Księstwo Warszawskie as a result of those wars. Those differences cannot be simply called "regional identities" within larger Europe, because for the better part of this 2k+ year long history the known world was pretty much Europe and middle east only, with china and japan being tightly shut to almost any cross influence and americas not even discovered yet...



Socialism with a small “s”, with welfare states and socialised healthcare and the view that government should restrain the excesses of the free market (very different to the US).


While this is seemingly true, there is a huge difference between east and west here, as most post-soviet countries see this "small s" as dangerously close to fully blown capital "C"... Especially with a lot of arbitrary actions from EU comissars in recent years.



Embedded diversity from former imperial colonies (in Western Europe at least).


You cannot call something that splits the continent in two nearly equal halves "a common culture". And even counting in similarities between "cultural diversity" of times like The First Polish Republic and Pax Britannia this "resulting embedded diversity" differs greatly between countries, so again, it is too weak to be anything of true common value.



Shared artistic and architectural styles going forward from the Renaissance.
Except again, few huge splits in following times, the most recent being Cold War and Iron Courtain...



Football (the proper kind).


Not after Polish National Team just killed all of the enthusiasm for this sport in Poland not more than a week ago


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 03:30:35


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Jadenim wrote:
A sense of continuity/deep history, going back at least to the Roman Empire, with strong regional identities that predate (and I would argue take precedence over) current nations.

Socialism with a small “s”, with welfare states and socialised healthcare and the view that government should restrain the excesses of the free market (very different to the US).

Embedded diversity from former imperial colonies (in Western Europe at least).

Shared artistic and architectural styles going forward from the Renaissance.

Football (the proper kind).

Large parts of Europe never were part of the Roman Empire. Virtually all countries have strong regional identities, not just European ones. Not all European countries have adopted socialist welfare states, and many of them definitely went for Socialism with a capital S. The vast majority of European countries have never had colonies, and architectural styles vary massively even in the present day. And even football is not the number 1 sport in every country (Russia and Finland have ice hockey for example).
The different cultural groups within Europe (Northern, Southern and Eastern) don't actually have all that much in common. Still, while there is lots of things dividing different European cultures, there is also undeniably some sort of shared European identity. Although beyond a shared religion and history it is difficult to say where that comes from. I wonder, do other continents have something similar? Is there a some kind of South American identity? An Asian identity? An African identity?
If no, then my guess is that the European identity is probably the result of the small size of the European continent. Europe has a huge amount of different peoples and countries jammed into a very small space. I think that results into a lot of shared history and therefore shared identities.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 10:10:11


Post by: nou


I would rather call European history "an interwoven clusterfeth" than "shared experience"


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 12:24:32


Post by: Mozzyfuzzy


I think the only thing you can posit as a shared European identity, is that we've fought each other a lot and at the moment the majority of us would rather not do it again, but then hooray for ill informed nationalists who would rather be isolationists than work with (insert national equivalent of Johnny Foreigner).


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 12:37:47


Post by: nou


 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
I think the only thing you can posit as a shared European identity, is that we've fought each other a lot and at the moment the majority of us would rather not do it again, but then hooray for ill informed nationalists who would rather be isolationists than work with (insert national equivalent of Johnny Foreigner).


True, we have all bled enough already, but we do still fight each other a lot, just not using open warfare but subtleties of economics and politics.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 13:12:22


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.


Mind you, I still feel like we're closer to European culture than to American, despite what some other posters feel. You just need to look at some of the conversations between British and American posters in this forum to see that.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 13:46:37


Post by: Zond


I can't say I feel European at all. There's no hostility or animosity at all, I just don't feel connected. I'm reasonably well traveled and I love every time I visit Europe and absorb the art, culture and history but it doesn't feel like it's something I'm a part of or an inheritor to.

The same could be said for my British and Scottish identities so I'm struggling all over haha.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 14:10:16


Post by: nfe


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.


Mind you, I still feel like we're closer to European culture than to American, despite what some other posters feel. You just need to look at some of the conversations between British and American posters in this forum to see that.


I’d be very interested in seeing statistics from the studies I’m sure will have been conducted into people’s experiences of arriving (to live, not as tourists) in new countries, but anecdotally I certainly see this supported. Amongst friends who’ve moved from the UK to Europe or the US (or both) far more express feeling out of place in the latter. It’s a common thing amongst students doing a year abroad, too, in my experience. I think often people from the UK expect to feel entirely comfortable living in the US because of their familiarity with US media, but find the reality to be very different. Most of Europe on the other hand, languages aside, they slot into much more easily.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 14:21:21


Post by: Formosa


nfe wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.


Mind you, I still feel like we're closer to European culture than to American, despite what some other posters feel. You just need to look at some of the conversations between British and American posters in this forum to see that.


I’d be very interested in seeing statistics from the studies I’m sure will have been conducted into people’s experiences of arriving (to live, not as tourists) in new countries, but anecdotally I certainly see this supported. Amongst friends who’ve moved from the UK to Europe or the US (or both) far more express feeling out of place in the latter. It’s a common thing amongst students doing a year abroad, too, in my experience. I think often people from the UK expect to feel entirely comfortable living in the US because of their familiarity with US media, but find the reality to be very different. Most of Europe on the other hand, languages aside, they slot into much more easily.


I can attest to that, I spent 2 years stationed in Nevada, the Yanks were... an odd bunch, language, humour, politeness etc. were all different to how we do things over here, where as in Germany .. they seemed like brits with a funny accent, whoever says the Germans dont have a sense of humour has never met one!


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 18:13:41


Post by: Jangustus


I consider myself British. I was born and raised in London (and still live here) but neither of parents were British (though are now) and have never considered myself English, but certainly British (and a Londoner of course...)

As to feeling European, the answer has to be no. Whilst Britain is very much part of the continent of Europe in no way do I feel European per se.

However... Western europe and scandanavia in particular both feel very similar to the UK wherever I've traveled around those parts, whilst the USA felt very odd, and completely different when I went there, and I feel so much more at home in mainland Europe than I do anywhere else in the world except for maybe New Zealand.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 18:15:39


Post by: A Town Called Malus


I don't really feel English, British, European or anything really.

I don't think any of what I think makes me truly me can be defined by being a part of a geographical location and so where I was born or where I am doesn't really come into what I consider my identity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Formosa wrote:

I can attest to that, I spent 2 years stationed in Nevada, the Yanks were... an odd bunch, language, humour, politeness etc. were all different to how we do things over here, where as in Germany .. they seemed like brits with a funny accent, whoever says the Germans dont have a sense of humour has never met one!


Something that has stuck in my mind was a TV show about people opposing the far right in Germany, where they showed a march of people lampooning nazi iconography (nazi flag but had fruit instead of swastika if I remember correctly). Anyway, they were interviewing the leader of the march and in the background of the shot there was one of the marchers, in full nazi-esque style uniform with a side parting of blonde hair. Some of his hair fell out of place and, with absolutely no change in expression or even eye movement, he whipped a comb out of his breast pocket, combed the hair back in place and then put the comb back. The movements were so practiced and precise. It was a perfect parody of the Nazi obsession with order and perfect movement exhibited in the Nazi rallies and propaganda films.

That level of self awareness and perfect satire is closer to what is regarded as "British humour" than anything I have seen produced anywhere but the UK.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 18:48:33


Post by: Formosa


Yep I love the dead pan German humour, same with the belgiums, funny bunch, certain parts of the states I went to had a very British humour too, it always makes me laugh when I hear an American use a British slang term though it just doesn’t sound ... right?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 20:17:33


Post by: Iron_Captain


nou wrote:
I would rather call European history "an interwoven clusterfeth" than "shared experience"

Hey, I didn't say it was a positive experience


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 20:38:24


Post by: War Drone


I haven't read all the replies to this thread ... on purpose (I saw some gak about brexit and stopped!)

Although I'm British according to my passport, I've only lived here as an adult less than two years ...

2005 to 2016 = Japan
1993 to 2005 = Germany
From 1982 to 1993 = All over the fething place ... wherever I was sent

Yeah, I feel European ... but with a definite preference for far-east asia.




Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/02 22:04:34


Post by: Mario


mrhappyface wrote:
Mario wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU
That's just hilariously uniformed. The EU even regularly gives out money so some regions can restore their own cultural elements that would otherwise not be supported. They also support regional food specialities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_indications_and_traditional_specialities_in_the_European_Union

The EU is working on unifying regulations so that all those different regions can work together more easily but there's no forced cultural homogenisation. People from the north and south of Germany alone would laugh at your idea of an unified EU culture.

Because individual cultures of countries doesn't mean that there isn't also an over-arching culture.
That over-arching culture was more or less everybody picking a fight with everybody else over all kinds of issues and that's about it. Same as on your little island over there. See, we're all the same in a way and have quite a bit in common

Sure people who live near a border have some similarities with the people on the other side of that border but it just can't work like that for islands as your neighbours in those cases are often aquatic and don't talk too much.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 08:17:30


Post by: ordoteutonicus


So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 09:23:55


Post by: Yodhrin


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I don't really feel English, British, European or anything really.

I don't think any of what I think makes me truly me can be defined by being a part of a geographical location and so where I was born or where I am doesn't really come into what I consider my identity.


Hmm. TBH I used to think exactly this way, as what you might describe as an old-school "workers unite" Labour internationalist, but while it's daft to really define yourself by the geographical accident of birth, when I sat down to really think about this kind of thing during the runup to the independence referendum when I was deciding what position to take, it became pretty hard to deny how much we're shaped by that accident. Just because you're not a flag-worshipping blood & soil capital-N Nationalist marching about in whatever your local equivalent of a kilt is all the time, doesn't mean the identity by which you define yourself wasn't influenced and in some ways molded by the places where you've spent the most time.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 09:48:07


Post by: Mr Morden


I suppose the nearest I have come to feeling European is during the Ryder Cup


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 10:04:21


Post by: jouso


ordoteutonicus wrote:
So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Whenever someone asks something like the OP did, I'm just going to link at this post.



Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 10:19:43


Post by: Shieldwolf Miniatures


jouso wrote:
mrhappyface wrote:
jouso wrote:
 mrhappyface wrote:
 Da Boss wrote:
...but like, Britain is just undeniably a European country. It is in Europe. It's a very weird thing to say that you are not European when your country is obviously in Europe. I find it fascinating, this animosity and weird hostility.

Like DJones just said, it's not a matter of whether geographically we're European, it's whether we're culturally European. Mainland Europe has a very unified culture under the EU but Britain has always been an outsider to that culture.



There's nothing unified about individual countries in the EU.

A Pole, a Greek, a Finn and a Portuguese are as different from each other culturally as from a random Brit.

They have their language, their literature, pop music, customs, foods, festivities and everything else that makes up their identity different from each other.

Europe (as in EU) is a vehicle for convenience. There's nothing cultural about it other than hazy buzzwords around "European values" which if you scratch the blue paint on top are very much the same Western democratic values you can find in Australia or the US, with a little Euro flag on top

Are poles, Greeks, Finns and Portuguese that enthusiastic about a unified Europe? I know a Greek friend of mine says that they couldn't give a toss about European values, legislations, etc.


Individually you will find anything and everything. For the most part yes they do give a not always very enthusiastic toss.

Greece in particular seems to have an issue with regulations, though, European and otherwise.


Well, the general feeling here in Greece is that the EU didn't really stand up for us in the time of need. They saved their banks and screwed everyone over, our economy still struggling 10 years after the economic crisis of 2008. Wes still need a debt cut? Seriously? *facepalm*
Banks have been saved, our GDP still horrible and taxes are intolerable. Taxes which many people do pay unlike what the international propaganda says about us.
The general feeling here is that Greece should have paid a price for bad economic practices in the past but we have heavily overpaid it. That doesn't mean that the concept of Europa is wrong however, it's how people choose to implement it that causes the issues.

jouso wrote:
ordoteutonicus wrote:
So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Whenever someone asks something like the OP did, I'm just going to link at this post.

+1

As Greeks we were brought up being very proud of our country and what our ancestors have given the world (and thus Europe as well). That is the past however.
Only a Union will deny fragility and augment prospect, that's why I think the EU is not only a good but a very good idea and should be supported.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 10:26:20


Post by: Backfire


Not really, no. People here often talk if 'Europe' is an overseas continent, which it kinda is.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 11:47:57


Post by: nfe


 Yodhrin wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I don't really feel English, British, European or anything really.

I don't think any of what I think makes me truly me can be defined by being a part of a geographical location and so where I was born or where I am doesn't really come into what I consider my identity.


Hmm. TBH I used to think exactly this way, as what you might describe as an old-school "workers unite" Labour internationalist, but while it's daft to really define yourself by the geographical accident of birth, when I sat down to really think about this kind of thing during the runup to the independence referendum when I was deciding what position to take, it became pretty hard to deny how much we're shaped by that accident. Just because you're not a flag-worshipping blood & soil capital-N Nationalist marching about in whatever your local equivalent of a kilt is all the time, doesn't mean the identity by which you define yourself wasn't influenced and in some ways molded by the places where you've spent the most time.


Unquestionably true, but there’s a gulf between recognising that you are shaped by your surroundings and the sociocultural norms of the individuals and societies you spend time amongst and identifying as being a member of a geopolitical entity in any sense beyond the legal.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 12:54:41


Post by: Iron_Captain


nfe wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I don't really feel English, British, European or anything really.

I don't think any of what I think makes me truly me can be defined by being a part of a geographical location and so where I was born or where I am doesn't really come into what I consider my identity.


Hmm. TBH I used to think exactly this way, as what you might describe as an old-school "workers unite" Labour internationalist, but while it's daft to really define yourself by the geographical accident of birth, when I sat down to really think about this kind of thing during the runup to the independence referendum when I was deciding what position to take, it became pretty hard to deny how much we're shaped by that accident. Just because you're not a flag-worshipping blood & soil capital-N Nationalist marching about in whatever your local equivalent of a kilt is all the time, doesn't mean the identity by which you define yourself wasn't influenced and in some ways molded by the places where you've spent the most time.


Unquestionably true, but there’s a gulf between recognising that you are shaped by your surroundings and the sociocultural norms of the individuals and societies you spend time amongst and identifying as being a member of a geopolitical entity in any sense beyond the legal.

For some people maybe, but not for most. I think most people identify with the place they were born/grew up to some degree.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 13:09:50


Post by: nfe


 Iron_Captain wrote:
nfe wrote:
 Yodhrin wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
I don't really feel English, British, European or anything really.

I don't think any of what I think makes me truly me can be defined by being a part of a geographical location and so where I was born or where I am doesn't really come into what I consider my identity.


Hmm. TBH I used to think exactly this way, as what you might describe as an old-school "workers unite" Labour internationalist, but while it's daft to really define yourself by the geographical accident of birth, when I sat down to really think about this kind of thing during the runup to the independence referendum when I was deciding what position to take, it became pretty hard to deny how much we're shaped by that accident. Just because you're not a flag-worshipping blood & soil capital-N Nationalist marching about in whatever your local equivalent of a kilt is all the time, doesn't mean the identity by which you define yourself wasn't influenced and in some ways molded by the places where you've spent the most time.


Unquestionably true, but there’s a gulf between recognising that you are shaped by your surroundings and the sociocultural norms of the individuals and societies you spend time amongst and identifying as being a member of a geopolitical entity in any sense beyond the legal.

For some people maybe, but not for most. I think most people identify with the place they were born/grew up to some degree.


Definitely. I’m just saying that the two positions do not necesarily overlap.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 14:34:04


Post by: Moscha


I had the chance to stay in Salamanca, Spain, for a timespan of about three months some 10 years ago. I was there to study the spanish language, along with other young people from all around Europe and Asia.

I have found great friends there from Holland, Belgium, Hungary, Austria, Russia. With some of them I am still in contact from time to time.

Being out together, studying, eating and drinking together, I felt that we all had A LOT of common ground.
The same ideas of how a free society should look like, how to behave in private/public, just everything. Hell, I even agreed with them that "Cerveza Holandesa" from Carrefour was tasting better "Cerveza Aléman".
There was an Englishman too but we others didn't get along with him too good because he was a fething snob and kinda looking down on the other for no obvious reason. Well, except for himself being a dick.




Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/03 23:54:06


Post by: Ketara


I'm quite solidly English in terms of culture; albeit with a sprinkling of other ethnicities from my father's side. I apologise instinctively to people who walk into me, buy in my round, and believe very strongly believe that a good cup of tea is one of the best palliatives.

In terms of European culture...? I find it hard to pin down what that is. I mean, you couldn't exactly say it was a dedication to freedom of speech and democracy; looking at the history of most of Europe. The architectural styles are radically different between the Czech republic and Malta, the attitude to life very different between Portugal and Poland, and there's no real gastronomic commonalities shared between even four of those. Sure, if you compare one neighbour to another, you can pick up similarities; but the minute you move two or three countries over, the difference is quite striking in most regards.

I can't say I feel I have anything in common with a German that I don't a Brazilian. And I feel I have a lot more in common with Canadians than I do the Hungarians; despite the latter being attached to the same continental land mass as me. I probably have more in common with a Greek than I do a Mongolian, but that's not saying much. Compared to somebody from New Zealand, they're both strangers.

Upon reflection, I don't think a 'European' really exists for most people except as a geographic or political indicator. Sure, you get the fervent believers in 'Europe' declaring themselves 'European', but that's usually tied to the European Union as some sort of political declaration of self. I don't think it means much when it comes to culture or commonalities.

To me, 'Europe' is that bunch of countries over the river; in the same way America is that other country over the pond. They're other countries. I'm in my mine. I've really no reason to assimilate a 'European' identity, anymore than I do a 'Western' identity, or a 'Global' one.

I think that people who go to another country and find no difference between themselves and those they associate with, tend to not realise that class lends itself to a greater commonality of shared experience than anything else. Sure, if you're a uni student, hanging around with other uni students, you'll have a lot in common. Same if you're a tech worker travelling from London to Vienna; one IT office is much like another both in terms of the business and the people in it. If you're heading to Brussels to push paper, you'll find other EU penpushers have a broadly similar mindset and educational background. If you're going to China to teach a language, you'll have a lot in common with other Europeans who are doing the same thing, and those commonalities will increase as you all navigate the same hurdles.

But that's not so much being 'European' as it is a class and experience thing. Take a member of the Spanish royal family and dump them in a concrete tower block filled with working class people in an isolated Polish town? You'll see a lot less in the way of feelings of unity and brotherhood. Take a Scottish fisherman who's spent fifty years fighting the North Sea and drop him in polite society in Hungary? Same again.

I'm not saying that they'd have nothing whatsoever in common, but they'd have a lot less in the way of 'Brotherhood of man', 'we're all Europeans and the same' feelings than the original examples, I should think. Class and shared background/experience is far more of a social link between people than being 'European'.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 08:23:35


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:


I think that people who go to another country and find no difference between themselves and those they associate with, tend to not realise that class lends itself to a greater commonality of shared experience than anything else. Sure, if you're a uni student, hanging around with other uni students, you'll have a lot in common. Same if you're a tech worker travelling from London to Vienna; one IT office is much like another both in terms of the business and the people in it. If you're heading to Brussels to push paper, you'll find other EU penpushers have a broadly similar mindset and educational background. If you're going to China to teach a language, you'll have a lot in common with other Europeans who are doing the same thing, and those commonalities will increase as you all navigate the same hurdles.

That is a valid point. Class definitely plays into it. But still, I'd like to argue that a Brit and a German from the same class share more in common with each other than they do with an American of the same class, or a Moroccan or Korean. Sure, the Brit and American share a common language, but in terms of culture and political viewpoints they are likely to diverge much more widely than the German. Although you could throw in a Canadian and then it gets more confusing... But in the end, American and Canadian cultures are European cultures as well, aren't they? They may not be geographically located in Europe, but they were formed and shaped by people and cultures from all across Europe. So in a sense, the US is actually more European than any European country will ever be. With that in mind, there is definitely a common European culture that can be contrasted with African or Asian cultures.

 Ketara wrote:
Take a member of the Spanish royal family and dump them in a concrete tower block filled with working class people in an isolated Polish town? You'll see a lot less in the way of feelings of unity and brotherhood. Take a Scottish fisherman who's spent fifty years fighting the North Sea and drop him in polite society in Hungary? Same again.

I'd totally watch that show.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 10:59:05


Post by: Backfire


ordoteutonicus wrote:
So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Perceived issue here is that economical benefits of the EU and Euro seem to fall primarily on France & Germany (mostly Germany) who dominate European single market with their geography and economies of the scale. Small EU countries increasingly have their production and service sectors captured by major player from big EU countries.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 11:12:28


Post by: jouso


Backfire wrote:
ordoteutonicus wrote:
So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Perceived issue here is that economical benefits of the EU and Euro seem to fall primarily on France & Germany (mostly Germany) who dominate European single market with their geography and economies of the scale. Small EU countries increasingly have their production and service sectors captured by major player from big EU countries.


While Germany and France (just like the UK used to) complain that they're bankrolling the rest of the EU while smaller, poorer countries leech off them. Every government thinks (or tells) that they're being ripped off.



Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 11:23:53


Post by: Iron_Captain


Backfire wrote:
ordoteutonicus wrote:
So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Perceived issue here is that economical benefits of the EU and Euro seem to fall primarily on France & Germany (mostly Germany) who dominate European single market with their geography and economies of the scale. Small EU countries increasingly have their production and service sectors captured by major player from big EU countries.

This is something that would happen even more without the EU. Germany is the largest and most powerful economy of Europe, it will dominate regardless. Now the smaller countries at least have a say. The EU at least puts a democratic check on German hegemony. At the very least it works better than past attempts to deal with the 'German problem'.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 11:25:48


Post by: Not Online!!!


Must be difficult to addapt to a overarching culture if you lived in nation states with an unified culture and suddenly have to adapt....
Somehow i feel i've seen this somewhere...



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Backfire wrote:
ordoteutonicus wrote:
So, yes I feel European. But that is because we grew up, here in Germany, with a denial of a real German feeling during the 70th and 80th, because of the WWII thing.
I dislike the politics of the EU, but the concept of moving closer in continental Europe to prevent further war is very fundamental for me. So things like student exchanges and work experiences
abroad or working in another EU country is very important.
On the other hand as a economical power compared to the US or China only a united Europe can really compete . As single countries, not even France or Germany, would be up to the competition with the US or China. This is important for all Countries in the EU, I think, as the aim has to be to keep jobs and welfare at least on a level we have now.


Perceived issue here is that economical benefits of the EU and Euro seem to fall primarily on France & Germany (mostly Germany) who dominate European single market with their geography and economies of the scale. Small EU countries increasingly have their production and service sectors captured by major player from big EU countries.

This is something that would happen even more without the EU. Germany is the largest and most powerful economy of Europe, it will dominate regardless. Now the smaller countries at least have a say. The EU at least puts a democratic check on German hegemony. At the very least it works better than past attempts to deal with the 'German problem'.


Historically Germany after it's unifaction was never a problem, mentally handicapped leaders in the late 1800s and early 1900s were the problem.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 13:04:38


Post by: nfe


 Ketara wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm quite solidly English in terms of culture; albeit with a sprinkling of other ethnicities from my father's side. I apologise instinctively to people who walk into me, buy in my round, and believe very strongly believe that a good cup of tea is one of the best palliatives.

In terms of European culture...? I find it hard to pin down what that is. I mean, you couldn't exactly say it was a dedication to freedom of speech and democracy; looking at the history of most of Europe. The architectural styles are radically different between the Czech republic and Malta, the attitude to life very different between Portugal and Poland, and there's no real gastronomic commonalities shared between even four of those. Sure, if you compare one neighbour to another, you can pick up similarities; but the minute you move two or three countries over, the difference is quite striking in most regards.

I can't say I feel I have anything in common with a German that I don't a Brazilian. And I feel I have a lot more in common with Canadians than I do the Hungarians; despite the latter being attached to the same continental land mass as me. I probably have more in common with a Greek than I do a Mongolian, but that's not saying much. Compared to somebody from New Zealand, they're both strangers.

Upon reflection, I don't think a 'European' really exists for most people except as a geographic or political indicator. Sure, you get the fervent believers in 'Europe' declaring themselves 'European', but that's usually tied to the European Union as some sort of political declaration of self. I don't think it means much when it comes to culture or commonalities.

To me, 'Europe' is that bunch of countries over the river; in the same way America is that other country over the pond. They're other countries. I'm in my mine. I've really no reason to assimilate a 'European' identity, anymore than I do a 'Western' identity, or a 'Global' one.

I think that people who go to another country and find no difference between themselves and those they associate with, tend to not realise that class lends itself to a greater commonality of shared experience than anything else. Sure, if you're a uni student, hanging around with other uni students, you'll have a lot in common. Same if you're a tech worker travelling from London to Vienna; one IT office is much like another both in terms of the business and the people in it. If you're heading to Brussels to push paper, you'll find other EU penpushers have a broadly similar mindset and educational background. If you're going to China to teach a language, you'll have a lot in common with other Europeans who are doing the same thing, and those commonalities will increase as you all navigate the same hurdles.

But that's not so much being 'European' as it is a class and experience thing. Take a member of the Spanish royal family and dump them in a concrete tower block filled with working class people in an isolated Polish town? You'll see a lot less in the way of feelings of unity and brotherhood. Take a Scottish fisherman who's spent fifty years fighting the North Sea and drop him in polite society in Hungary? Same again.

I'm not saying that they'd have nothing whatsoever in common, but they'd have a lot less in the way of 'Brotherhood of man', 'we're all Europeans and the same' feelings than the original examples, I should think. Class and shared background/experience is far more of a social link between people than being 'European'.


All of this is completely true but I would still argue that if comparing like for like, usually Brits will be more culturally ‘in-tune’ with most of Europe (and certainly western europe) than most of the world, with the notable exceptions of Australia and New Zealand. It’s certainly anecdotal, but I find that I always settle into the company of most Europeans in my field (archaeology) more freely than those from elsewhere. At major conferences I tend to find that you see fairly distinct groups form (ignoring that people also hang out with the folks they work with directly), and largely the Brits fall in amongst the Europeans, with the US being a distinct contingent, the Turks are usually their own crowd, the Israelis are also their own group, the Arab nations kinda collect together, etc. There are a lot of other things in play beyond culture, education systems being a big one in this example (British universities are far more like European ones than US ibstitutions, for example) but there’s certainly a bit of cultural gravity involved.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 13:40:28


Post by: Ketara


nfe wrote:

All of this is completely true but I would still argue that if comparing like for like, usually Brits will be more culturally ‘in-tune’ with most of Europe (and certainly western europe) than most of the world, with the notable exceptions of Australia and New Zealand.

I'd tack on Canada to that list.

I've always found Canadians to be the most similar to the English quite frankly; I think I could likely move there and completely feel at home with the people. I think it might be due to having the Americans on their doorstep, but Canadians always seem quite keen to adopt more British traits as a counterweight to the cultural behemoth on their doorstep.

It’s certainly anecdotal, but I find that I always settle into the company of most Europeans in my field (archaeology) more freely than those from elsewhere. At major conferences I tend to find that you see fairly distinct groups form (ignoring that people also hang out with the folks they work with directly), and largely the Brits fall in amongst the Europeans, with the US being a distinct contingent, the Turks are usually their own crowd, the Israelis are also their own group, the Arab nations kinda collect together, etc. There are a lot of other things in play beyond culture, education systems being a big one in this example (British universities are far more like European ones than US ibstitutions, for example) but there’s certainly a bit of cultural gravity involved.

Anecdotally, I'm not sure I'd agree with this assessment. I think people are more likely to hang with those they understand (language is a big factor in comfort); but I sit with a Japanese scholar as happily as I do a German one. I don't particularly feel any more culturally in tune with one than the other. They're both foreigners, both have their quirks and their own language. Which is cool. I've a good friend from university that came from Hong Kong, and don't think we'd somehow feel a deeper connection if she was from Latvia instead.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 14:30:37


Post by: Iron_Captain


 Ketara wrote:
nfe wrote:

All of this is completely true but I would still argue that if comparing like for like, usually Brits will be more culturally ‘in-tune’ with most of Europe (and certainly western europe) than most of the world, with the notable exceptions of Australia and New Zealand.

I'd tack on Canada to that list.

I've always found Canadians to be the most similar to the English quite frankly; I think I could likely move there and completely feel at home with the people. I think it might be due to having the Americans on their doorstep, but Canadians always seem quite keen to adopt more British traits as a counterweight to the cultural behemoth on their doorstep.

It’s certainly anecdotal, but I find that I always settle into the company of most Europeans in my field (archaeology) more freely than those from elsewhere. At major conferences I tend to find that you see fairly distinct groups form (ignoring that people also hang out with the folks they work with directly), and largely the Brits fall in amongst the Europeans, with the US being a distinct contingent, the Turks are usually their own crowd, the Israelis are also their own group, the Arab nations kinda collect together, etc. There are a lot of other things in play beyond culture, education systems being a big one in this example (British universities are far more like European ones than US ibstitutions, for example) but there’s certainly a bit of cultural gravity involved.

Anecdotally, I'm not sure I'd agree with this assessment. I think people are more likely to hang with those they understand (language is a big factor in comfort); but I sit with a Japanese scholar as happily as I do a German one. I don't particularly feel any more culturally in tune with one than the other. They're both foreigners, both have their quirks and their own language. Which is cool. I've a good friend from university that came from Hong Kong, and don't think we'd somehow feel a deeper connection if she was from Latvia instead.

Japanese have a lot more weird quirks than Germans do though. Not to mention that Japanese society works very differently from British and German society, which largely work the same way. I love chatting with Japanese people too (way more interesting than chatting with Germans, Germans are almost exactly like Dutch people, and they are almost just as common around here), but Germans are definitely more relatable. Which makes it more likely you will become friends with them. Like I have only one friend who is not from Europe or the CIS (he is Chinese), but I have 6 Czech friends. And that is despite Chinese people outnumbering Czech people by quite a bit here. The Czechs and other Europeans are just way more intermingling with the Dutch students than the Chinese are, who mostly stay isolated in their own groups. Despite the Chinese all speaking fluent English and therefore being just as capable in interacting with the Dutch as the Czechs are (in fact, Chinese usually speak better English than the Czechs).
And that becomes especially clear in a demanding environment like an archaeological excavation, where you are stuck with a bunch of strangers in the middle of nowhere for quite a bit of time. Just yesterday I was talking with a girl who had just returned from an excavation in Turkey as well. She was talking about the same thing with social groups forming. There was a 'European' group (mostly Brits and Germans, with a few other nationalities. There were at least three Dutch and two Finns, as well as two Australians), an American group and a Turkish group. Notably, the Brits and two Australian guys stuck with the European group rather than approaching the American group. I think it is telling that in such an environment, where the choice is between two English-speaking groups, the Brits choose en masse to hang out with the Germans rather than the Americans. Just as telling I think is it that the Americans form a social group of their own. It is natural that when you are in a place with lots of people from your own country, you will group up with them. But if there is only a few people of your own country, you form a group with the 'next best thing', which is people whose language you speak and have a culture you can closely relate to. I think Brits can relate more closely to German culture than to American culture, but both would be more relatable than Turkish culture. It is like 'tiers' of cultural closeness.
It is all anecdotal of course, but I definitely think that it supports there being some sort of common 'European culture group' that is distinct from Chinese or other Asian cultures, but also from American culture.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 14:40:13


Post by: Thebiggesthat


I did, until a bunch of ill informed little englanders did their best to torpedo our relationship.

I'm living in hope Scotland gets another referendum on Independence, and I can retain my European membership that way.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 16:26:11


Post by: nfe


 Ketara wrote:
nfe wrote:

All of this is completely true but I would still argue that if comparing like for like, usually Brits will be more culturally ‘in-tune’ with most of Europe (and certainly western europe) than most of the world, with the notable exceptions of Australia and New Zealand.

I'd tack on Canada to that list.

I've always found Canadians to be the most similar to the English quite frankly; I think I could likely move there and completely feel at home with the people. I think it might be due to having the Americans on their doorstep, but Canadians always seem quite keen to adopt more British traits as a counterweight to the cultural behemoth on their doorstep.

It’s certainly anecdotal, but I find that I always settle into the company of most Europeans in my field (archaeology) more freely than those from elsewhere. At major conferences I tend to find that you see fairly distinct groups form (ignoring that people also hang out with the folks they work with directly), and largely the Brits fall in amongst the Europeans, with the US being a distinct contingent, the Turks are usually their own crowd, the Israelis are also their own group, the Arab nations kinda collect together, etc. There are a lot of other things in play beyond culture, education systems being a big one in this example (British universities are far more like European ones than US ibstitutions, for example) but there’s certainly a bit of cultural gravity involved.

Anecdotally, I'm not sure I'd agree with this assessment. I think people are more likely to hang with those they understand (language is a big factor in comfort); but I sit with a Japanese scholar as happily as I do a German one. I don't particularly feel any more culturally in tune with one than the other. They're both foreigners, both have their quirks and their own language. Which is cool. I've a good friend from university that came from Hong Kong, and don't think we'd somehow feel a deeper connection if she was from Latvia instead.


Oh I’m not suggesting these are universals, but in broad strokes these groups tend to form. Like I say there are certainly lots of other factors, but all other things being equal these splits frequently appear.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 16:55:54


Post by: Ketara


nfe wrote:

Oh I’m not suggestion these are universals, but in broad strokes these groups tend to form. Like I say there are certainly lots of other factors, but all other things being equal these splits tend to appear.


Taking what you're saying as the absolute truth for the moment; it's still a case of correlation, rather than causation. We could easily conjure up alternative sociological explanations for the phenomena.

For example, seeing those groups of scholars form, we could quite easily finger visual racial appearance as the primary culprit instead. Psychology has evidenced that we subconsciously feel most at ease with people who look like us. In such a case, we might see the African scholars in one corner, the Asian in another, the Middle-Eastern in another, and so on; but it wouldn't be down to a cultural or 'European' identity as much it is a subconscious tribal impulse. If you subdivided it further, you'd likely see those who dressed the most similar moving into closer groupings than with people from the same continent who were attired differently.

But these are all strictly visual cues and signals; and a white Scotchman wouldn't necessarily automatically associate with a European more than he would a white South African if this were the reason. We might well see a black man from London segue more easily into a group of black African men rather than join a bunch of white guys from Hungary; despite their similar 'European' background.

There's really no way of proving it one way or another without extended testing. Anyone got the grant money handy?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 18:21:10


Post by: nou


 Ketara wrote:
nfe wrote:

Oh I’m not suggestion these are universals, but in broad strokes these groups tend to form. Like I say there are certainly lots of other factors, but all other things being equal these splits tend to appear.


Taking what you're saying as the absolute truth for the moment; it's still a case of correlation, rather than causation. We could easily conjure up alternative sociological explanations for the phenomena.

For example, seeing those groups of scholars form, we could quite easily finger visual racial appearance as the primary culprit instead. Psychology has evidenced that we subconsciously feel most at ease with people who look like us. In such a case, we might see the African scholars in one corner, the Asian in another, the Middle-Eastern in another, and so on; but it wouldn't be down to a cultural or 'European' identity as much it is a subconscious tribal impulse. If you subdivided it further, you'd likely see those who dressed the most similar moving into closer groupings than with people from the same continent who were attired differently.

But these are all strictly visual cues and signals; and a white Scotchman wouldn't necessarily automatically associate with a European more than he would a white South African if this were the reason. We might well see a black man from London segue more easily into a group of black African men rather than join a bunch of white guys from Hungary; despite their similar 'European' background.

There's really no way of proving it one way or another without extended testing. Anyone got the grant money handy?


What you are describing here is called eigenface - the set of facial traits typical to a given genetic strain (that is not equivalent of race mind you) is different. Given that non-verbal face expressions are a huge part of interpersonal communication and even the smallest minutiae of those expressions matter, human species involves quite a lot computing power into reading those expressions in quite "fine resolution". This is also why uncanny valley phenomenon exists. Back to Europe - because of how interwoven our history is, common eigenfaces in european countries are quite closely related. Of course there are obvious differences between typical greek and swede, but the underlying eigenface mix of those two is still more familiar than subsaharian eigenface or east asian eigenface.

But within scholar disciplines one cannot leave more practical explanations out of the equation - are EU grants in archeology easier to get if your team is made purely from EU citizens? I imagine that a team made of one US citizen, one EU citizen, one Japanese person and one Turk would struggle more to get funding for their next excavation. I might be wrong as I'm not an archeologist, but it seems logical given EU grant nature in different disciplines.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 18:32:26


Post by: jouso


 Iron_Captain wrote:
 Ketara wrote:
nfe wrote:

All of this is completely true but I would still argue that if comparing like for like, usually Brits will be more culturally ‘in-tune’ with most of Europe (and certainly western europe) than most of the world, with the notable exceptions of Australia and New Zealand.

I'd tack on Canada to that list.

I've always found Canadians to be the most similar to the English quite frankly; I think I could likely move there and completely feel at home with the people. I think it might be due to having the Americans on their doorstep, but Canadians always seem quite keen to adopt more British traits as a counterweight to the cultural behemoth on their doorstep.

It’s certainly anecdotal, but I find that I always settle into the company of most Europeans in my field (archaeology) more freely than those from elsewhere. At major conferences I tend to find that you see fairly distinct groups form (ignoring that people also hang out with the folks they work with directly), and largely the Brits fall in amongst the Europeans, with the US being a distinct contingent, the Turks are usually their own crowd, the Israelis are also their own group, the Arab nations kinda collect together, etc. There are a lot of other things in play beyond culture, education systems being a big one in this example (British universities are far more like European ones than US ibstitutions, for example) but there’s certainly a bit of cultural gravity involved.

Anecdotally, I'm not sure I'd agree with this assessment. I think people are more likely to hang with those they understand (language is a big factor in comfort); but I sit with a Japanese scholar as happily as I do a German one. I don't particularly feel any more culturally in tune with one than the other. They're both foreigners, both have their quirks and their own language. Which is cool. I've a good friend from university that came from Hong Kong, and don't think we'd somehow feel a deeper connection if she was from Latvia instead.

Japanese have a lot more weird quirks than Germans do though. Not to mention that Japanese society works very differently from British and German society, which largely work the same way. I love chatting with Japanese people too (way more interesting than chatting with Germans, Germans are almost exactly like Dutch people, and they are almost just as common around here), but Germans are definitely more relatable. Which makes it more likely you will become friends with them.


That's what I was going to point out.

Many moons ago I was on a serious relationship with a Korean lady. We were both college educated, we were both baptised Christian (she was a Protestant, though, and her family was took religion way more seriously than mine, too), we had a chosen a similar career path (we met at work). Other than religion and the fact her family had more money than mine we led pretty parallel lives.

Yet many things about her felt extremely foreign. Customs, general demeanour, quirks, humour.... the list is extensive. And that was her, who had spent over half a decade in Europe. Her family might as well come from a different
planet. It wasn't the religion, or the money. I deal with toffs and religious people every day so it wasn't that, but so many things about them felt from the opposite side of the world, which they were.

On contrast my brother's Dutch wife is definitely foreign, but a next-door foreign type. One you can relate to in a myriad more ways than my Korean experience.



Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 18:56:03


Post by: nfe


 Ketara wrote:
nfe wrote:

Oh I’m not suggestion these are universals, but in broad strokes these groups tend to form. Like I say there are certainly lots of other factors, but all other things being equal these splits tend to appear.


Taking what you're saying as the absolute truth for the moment; it's still a case of correlation, rather than causation. We could easily conjure up alternative sociological explanations for the phenomena.

For example, seeing those groups of scholars form, we could quite easily finger visual racial appearance as the primary culprit instead. Psychology has evidenced that we subconsciously feel most at ease with people who look like us. In such a case, we might see the African scholars in one corner, the Asian in another, the Middle-Eastern in another, and so on; but it wouldn't be down to a cultural or 'European' identity as much it is a subconscious tribal impulse. If you subdivided it further, you'd likely see those who dressed the most similar moving into closer groupings than with people from the same continent who were attired differently.

But these are all strictly visual cues and signals; and a white Scotchman wouldn't necessarily automatically associate with a European more than he would a white South African if this were the reason. We might well see a black man from London segue more easily into a group of black African men rather than join a bunch of white guys from Hungary; despite their similar 'European' background.

There's really no way of proving it one way or another without extended testing. Anyone got the grant money handy?


This doesn’t really match up to what I was describing, though - where there are clear distinctions frequently formed that subdivide those superficial racial markers and some of those groups that frequently fall in together can be quite racially diverse.

As I said, all things being equal these groups often form but there’s no question there are myriad other factors involved.



Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 21:34:21


Post by: Backfire


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Backfire wrote:

Perceived issue here is that economical benefits of the EU and Euro seem to fall primarily on France & Germany (mostly Germany) who dominate European single market with their geography and economies of the scale. Small EU countries increasingly have their production and service sectors captured by major player from big EU countries.

This is something that would happen even more without the EU. Germany is the largest and most powerful economy of Europe, it will dominate regardless. Now the smaller countries at least have a say. The EU at least puts a democratic check on German hegemony. At the very least it works better than past attempts to deal with the 'German problem'.


No, it's actually complete opposite, as once you join the EU - and particularly EMU - small countries no longer have the legislative tools to deal with 'German invasion'.
And 'the small countries have a say' is in fact seen as a major flaw in the EU and hindrance to common economic policies, and it's something that the federative model (which Germany is pushing for) will do away with.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/04 22:47:32


Post by: Iron_Captain


Backfire wrote:
 Iron_Captain wrote:
Backfire wrote:

Perceived issue here is that economical benefits of the EU and Euro seem to fall primarily on France & Germany (mostly Germany) who dominate European single market with their geography and economies of the scale. Small EU countries increasingly have their production and service sectors captured by major player from big EU countries.

This is something that would happen even more without the EU. Germany is the largest and most powerful economy of Europe, it will dominate regardless. Now the smaller countries at least have a say. The EU at least puts a democratic check on German hegemony. At the very least it works better than past attempts to deal with the 'German problem'.


No, it's actually complete opposite, as once you join the EU - and particularly EMU - small countries no longer have the legislative tools to deal with 'German invasion'.
And 'the small countries have a say' is in fact seen as a major flaw in the EU and hindrance to common economic policies, and it's something that the federative model (which Germany is pushing for) will do away with.

'German invasion'? What is this, WW2? With or without the EU, small countries do not have the economic clout to prevent Germany's much bigger economy from dominating them. They do not have the legislative tools to prevent that anyways, unless they aim to withdraw from all international institutions and the capitalist system entirely. Economies and capitalists do not stop at national borders. Those small countries would be dependent on the German economy regardless, but this time without any say in the way things are run. The EU, through common policies, does give these countries a say.
Also, Germany is not pushing for a 'federative model'. Sure, there are some people in the German government who would like to see a European Federation, but it is not an official policy of the German government. And even if it were, they would never be able to push it through without other member states agreeing to it. The EU is a democracy. Germany usually takes a leading role because as the largest EU nation, it is expected of them, but when it comes to making decisions, every country has an equal vote and therefore say to Germany.


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/06 11:49:07


Post by: Wulfmar


Interesting, I've always felt a lot closer to Europe than the US. I consider myself European.

To me, while the US shares the same language etc, nothing could be more alien to me than their behavior and many of their beliefs. I find the US very arrogant and polarising and blind to it's own faults. Of course this is merely my opinion and an observation, not an attack on the US before someone goes gung-ho on me.

Curiously, I'm in Scotland and yet the Dakka flag on my profile insists on being American.... ugh


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/07 00:00:17


Post by: trexmeyer


How do you feel European? I don't even know how you feel American and isn't Europe much more culturally diverse as a whole?


Do you feel European? @ 2018/07/12 23:01:56


Post by: Backfire


 Iron_Captain wrote:
Backfire wrote:

No, it's actually complete opposite, as once you join the EU - and particularly EMU - small countries no longer have the legislative tools to deal with 'German invasion'.
And 'the small countries have a say' is in fact seen as a major flaw in the EU and hindrance to common economic policies, and it's something that the federative model (which Germany is pushing for) will do away with.

'German invasion'? What is this, WW2? With or without the EU, small countries do not have the economic clout to prevent Germany's much bigger economy from dominating them. They do not have the legislative tools to prevent that anyways, unless they aim to withdraw from all international institutions and the capitalist system entirely. Economies and capitalists do not stop at national borders. Those small countries would be dependent on the German economy regardless, but this time without any say in the way things are run. The EU, through common policies, does give these countries a say.


Let me take an example: currently, Finnish pharmacy sector is very heavily regulated by State. Pharmacies are private but their licenses controlled. Requirements for license are such that for all practical purposes, only a Finnish pharmacist can start a pharmacy.
This kind of national quasi-monopolies are what EU wants to discontinue. If it's done, it would open the door for big international pharmaceutical companies, which would quickly outcompete local pharmacies and dominate the sector.
Currently, Finnish pharmacies pay taxes to Finland. If the international companies arrive, they take the profits out of the country. This is only one example, but same is applicable to all service sectors. Eventually, there would be precious little enterprices left in domestic hands.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, Germany is not pushing for a 'federative model'. Sure, there are some people in the German government who would like to see a European Federation, but it is not an official policy of the German government. And even if it were, they would never be able to push it through without other member states agreeing to it.


Of course they wouldn't, which is why the idea they are floating is that they would found a new "Wolfpack EU" of sorts, which would be made out of 'core' countries which really are committed to common EU policies. All those who won't agree, and non-EMU countries, would be left out. In a way this would make sense, current 'multi-tier' EU where there are many 'membership levels' (In EU and EMU, in EU but not EMU, not in EU but in Schengen, in EU but not in Schengen, Denmark the special snowflake...) is not really workable concept long-term.