so, i was wondering if anybody feels the same, but with no news of vehicles (at least from what Ive read) i cant seem to get excited for kill team.
my 1st experience with 40k was heralds of ruin kill team (the official 7th edition killteam hadn't come out yet) and i had fun and it was a good foot into the hobby. the urban battlescapes were fun and my boyz were led by my mega armor bigmek backed by 2 nasty killa kanz. this would really grow my love for ork vehicles and my eventual dreaddmob. 40k for me is not defined by troops and infantry, they instead are the spice that surrounds the main dish of vehcles/walkers/monsters.
nowadays 40k has become more and more troop centric with a few broken vehicles mixed in. and it seems killteam is going the same route. heck, even killteam has very few options for every faction (no meganobz,no crisis suits, no bikes, very few jump infantry, nothing special!).
it seems killteam is just going to turn up to be "necomunda infantry combat...but for everyone"
it should've been fairly easy to add vehicles since they are pretty much tough infantry now (they could have a limit on vehicles based on their amount of wounds) .
maybe they will add an expansion that allows vehicles later, but right now i have no excitement for this game.
let me know what you guys think?
do you agree that killteam needs vehicles and more options in general?
Kill Team is one hundred points. That isn't even enough to fit a dreadnought.
One of the main pulls of Kill Team is that you can get a single infantry kit (or I guess two in the case of the armies with the cheapest bodies) and have enough dudes to play an army; this is great for new players as well as veterans looking to branch out without committing to 2000 points of stuff. There are a lot of mathematical reasons why vehicles wouldn't work in Kill Team, but for me the fact that it would diminish the accessibility of the game is more than enough reason to exclude them.
Kill team is 100 points. All but the very few cheapest vehicles (Sentinels with cheap guns, Rhinos with no upgrades, etc) are more than that, and transports are pointless if they don't have anything to transport. So no, I don't want to see vehicles in kill team.
Arachnofiend wrote: Kill Team is one hundred points. That isn't even enough to fit a dreadnought.
One of the main pulls of Kill Team is that you can get a single infantry kit (or I guess two in the case of the armies with the cheapest bodies) and have enough dudes to play an army; this is great for new players as well as veterans looking to branch out without committing to 2000 points of stuff. There are a lot of mathematical reasons why vehicles wouldn't work in Kill Team, but for me the fact that it would diminish the accessibility of the game is more than enough reason to exclude them.
or they could make overpriced vehicles cheaper, they are dropping points acroos the board so you can fit more into 100pts, why not do this for the vehicles.
also what if i bought a box of meganobz and wanted to play them, nope, boy equivalents only,
geargutz wrote: or they could make overpriced vehicles cheaper, they are dropping points acroos the board so you can fit more into 100pts, why not do this for the vehicles.
Ugh, no. The level of point drop that would be required to fit vehicles into kill team (remember, you need a full kill team, not just a single model) would result in them being ridiculously overpowered compared to infantry on top of creating miserable all or nothing games where the vehicle player either wins effortlessly because their opponent has no anti-tank weapons or loses on turn 1 because their opponent brought the counter list.
geargutz wrote: or they could make overpriced vehicles cheaper, they are dropping points acroos the board so you can fit more into 100pts, why not do this for the vehicles.
Ugh, no. The level of point drop that would be required to fit vehicles into kill team (remember, you need a full kill team, not just a single model) would result in them being ridiculously overpowered compared to infantry on top of creating miserable all or nothing games where the vehicle player either wins effortlessly because their opponent has no anti-tank weapons or loses on turn 1 because their opponent brought the counter list.
hmm, your right, vehicles are sooooooooo overpowered, thats why every tournament list is jam packed with them. ive heard 8th edition is the parking lot edition.
most vehicles are multi wound models with usually at most a 3plus armor save. soooo hard to kill. wait, isnt the 3plus save very common anyway with current killteam, arnt there actually many anti tank weapons, or cant you just rate of fire the vehicles to death since its toughness and save is not as good as it used to be from previous editions (what with any strength of weapon able to harm any toughness)?
now i acknowledge not all factions have access to cheap vehicles (even if you decrease their points by half) and so only a few factions would have vehicles available in killteam if i had it my way, but still those vehicles and special units make killteam varied and more interesting to play. if you had to fight imperial guard you're guaranteed to bring as many anti infantry weapons as possible because you at most would worry about a 4plus save (6plus if you fight orks). but if more vehicles and special units were allowed then you might have to anticipate a deadly heavy flamer sentinel to escort those squishy umies.
I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.
Arachnofiend wrote: Kill Team is one hundred points. That isn't even enough to fit a dreadnought.
One of the main pulls of Kill Team is that you can get a single infantry kit (or I guess two in the case of the armies with the cheapest bodies) and have enough dudes to play an army; this is great for new players as well as veterans looking to branch out without committing to 2000 points of stuff. There are a lot of mathematical reasons why vehicles wouldn't work in Kill Team, but for me the fact that it would diminish the accessibility of the game is more than enough reason to exclude them.
I don't know 100pts seems kind of a low for some armies. I get that they wanted to lower the number of models for the swarm lists and lists with good options, so that people wouldn't spam them. But for GK 100pts is 5 dudes. They die like normal non primaris marines, they technicly have psychic powers and good melee weapons, but against a good list they will never reach melee. Objectives also seem to be a huge problem, single dead dude and the game is done. And a single dead GK vs eldar or plasma heavy IG is super easy to achive.
Stux wrote: You're not looking at it in the context of a game of this scale though.
Do you genuinely think a game of 5 guys with Bolters Vs a Rhino would be fun?
even at a decrease in points a transport might not be that useful so we might not see them anyway
, but 5 guys with pwerfists vrs 2 kilakans sounds fun.
fun can be subjective, if you fight imperial knights in standard 40k then its 5 models vrs possibly hundreds. is that less fun then 10 guys vrs maybe 20 guys?
also its the narrative that can make a game funs.
lets say that rhino had explosives and was doing a suicide charge and all that stands between it and the supply cache is 5 brave men with bolters.
geargutz wrote: hmm, your right, vehicles are sooooooooo overpowered, thats why every tournament list is jam packed with them. ive heard 8th edition is the parking lot edition.
Normal 8th edition games are not played at 100 points, where access to special/heavy weapons is limited and you can't fit both redundant anti-tank and redundant anti-horde. And normal 8th edition games are not played with tanks that cost 25% of their current cost because you had to give them a massive price reduction to fit into a 100 point game. If a LRBT cost 30-50 points instead of 150-200 points parking lots would be dominating.
most vehicles are multi wound models with usually at most a 3plus armor save. soooo hard to kill.
T7/8 makes a huge difference, especially when -1 penalties are everywhere (remember, cover is much easier to get in kill team). So you would very often need 6s to hit, 6s to wound, and have to deal 10+ wounds to kill a tank. Sure, you might have a single lascannon or equivalent instead of those bolters/lasguns/etc, but that still depends on getting good dice with your one shot before the tank kills your single threat.
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geargutz wrote: also its the narrative that can make a game funs.
lets say that rhino had explosives and was doing a suicide charge and all that stands between it and the supply cache is 5 brave men with bolters.
That might be fun, maybe, but only once at most. Come up with whatever fluff you want, but the reality is going to be the 5 models with bolters fishing for 6s and hoping to RNG a win. The tactics involved would be limited at best and the winner would be almost entirely decided by the dice. At that point why even bother with models and rules and such? Just put your Rhino on the table and roll dice until you get tired of rolling dice.
phillv85 wrote: I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.
if you fight primaris marines wouldn't you want to bring multi wound high ap weapns anyway?
maybe your all thinking with 7th edition in mind? the vehicle damage table doesn't exist any more. the difference between a primaris marine and a killakan is 3 extra wounds and 1 more toughness.
If you want to play vehicles in 40k...then perhaps play 40k with some vehicles?
The entire point of Kill Team is to represent the really small scale skirmishes between groups of individuals where the minor details of such an engagement can really be explored as opposed to streamlined for ease of play when there are potentially hundreds of models a side.
There's nothing stopping you playing a low points level 40k game that is still high enough to allow for some vehicles (say, 500-750pts), but that categorically is not what Kill Team is supposed to be.
phillv85 wrote: I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.
if you fight primaris marines wouldn't you want to bring multi wound high ap weapns anyway?
maybe your all thinking with 7th edition in mind? the vehicle damage table doesn't exist any more. the difference between a primaris marine and a killakan is 3 extra wounds and 1 more toughness.
I don't think you realise how hard it is for small arms to deal with higher wounds and toughness in 8e. It takes an average of 70 shots from a Bolter wielded by a Marine to take down a Killa Kan.
MalusCalibur wrote: If you want to play vehicles in 40k...then perhaps play 40k with some vehicles?
The entire point of Kill Team is to represent the really small scale skirmishes between groups of individuals where the minor details of such an engagement can really be explored as opposed to streamlined for ease of play when there are potentially hundreds of models a side.
There's nothing stopping you playing a low points level 40k game that is still high enough to allow for some vehicles (say, 500-750pts), but that categorically is not what Kill Team is supposed to be.
hmm, if killteam in the past (not talking about heralds of ruin, but official killteam from gw) allowed vehicles and other special infantry with enough pts to allow those things, then what makes this version killteam. they've taken the name but not much else. maybe they should've named it shadow war (seems like its following shadow war Armageddons template, which is like necromunda for all 40k races, but with very few option for lists).
yeah, but that is why the real basic weapons are not bolters. It is stuff like plasma guns, reaper launchers, all those weapons DE have. A bolter marine is more or less a wound counter or a bullet sponge.
phillv85 wrote: I'm happy for killteam to just use troops. It makes the game easier to balance. Once you put vehicles or other bigger models in it changes the game away from your 5 models carrying anti infantry weapons into needing them to carry meltas or missile launchers. It changes the dynamic too much in my opinion.
if you fight primaris marines wouldn't you want to bring multi wound high ap weapns anyway?
maybe your all thinking with 7th edition in mind? the vehicle damage table doesn't exist any more. the difference between a primaris marine and a killakan is 3 extra wounds and 1 more toughness.
I don't think you realise how hard it is for small arms to deal with higher wounds and toughness in 8e. It takes an average of 70 shots from a Bolter wielded by a Marine to take down a Killa Kan.
so bring a plasma pistol, a krak grenade, a melta gun. at this point you sound like your just complaining that you dont want to bring more varied wpns in your killtem. "i onlyt need bolters to win games of killteam,!"
Considering that many Kill Teams have little in the way of high strength/high AP/high damage weapons (most Space Marine Kill Teams will only have one or two special/heavy weapons, and if they're Primaris, absolutely none), adding vehicles is problematic. When Kill Team has been advertised as skirmish combat for infantry, adding vehicles would break the intended game. In the same respect, I'd be annoyed if infantry were the focus in something like the old Spearhead expansion, which was all about tanks.
Adding in the fact that they're often too expensive, and dropping their points without nerfing the vehicles themselves is vile in terms of balanced game design, vehicles just are not built for Kill Team.
The only ones I can imagine being viable in the future would be Sentinels and maybe a single Killa Kan. However, those models would need to be nerfed to be less durable to small arms fire, and more vulnerable in close combat.
Just adding vehicles and reducing their points without affecting their rules is horrifically bad for balance.
If you like vehicles so much, have you considered playing small 500 point games instead against an opponent who's willing?
Stux wrote: I don't want to have to fill my team with expensive anti tank just on the off chance the opponent brings a vehicle though!
That's the whole issue here. It's squad level compat.
a squad has never dealt with a vehicle before in the history of 40k, heck the history of war?
a squad has never brought along an antitank weapon in case of the off chance of dealing with heavy armor?
adding larger models adds a new type of dimension to the game.
add more variety
killteam currently has very little options. some factions seem to only have 1 type of model (you poor harlequin players).
in the end im not only disaponted there are not vehicles, im also dispointed of the lack of other iconic models.
theoretically if i wanted to play whitescars, then what are my lore friendly whitescar options? man, i cant wait to play foot sloggin whitescars.
Stux wrote: I don't want to have to fill my team with expensive anti tank just on the off chance the opponent brings a vehicle though!
That's the whole issue here. It's squad level compat.
a squad has never dealt with a vehicle before in the history of 40k, heck the history of war?
a squad has never brought along an antitank weapon in case of the off chance of dealing with heavy armor?
adding larger models adds a new type of dimension to the game.
add more variety
killteam currently has very little options. some factions seem to only have 1 type of model (you poor harlequin players).
Of course they have, but the mechanics of the game proclude this from being practical in Kill Team.
If you want to make a scenario mission around a vehicle then that could be cool, but allowing a team to take vehicles in the game as it stands simply wouldn't work.
It just sounds like you want it to be a different game, which is fine, no game is for everyone. But it seems most people are happy with the scope that GW have decided this time.
many keep saying "anti tank wpns are too expensive"
or "vehicles with cover would be too hard to kill"
so far it seems killteam is not beholden to the pts or rules of normal 40k. the killteam guys could've reworks points to make vehicles more available and also the weapon that would take them out cheaper and more common.
they could make it so that the battlefield would make a vehicle not as useful as a man in cover. it would take a lot of cover to conceal a vehicle, maybe a 50 to 75% rule.
these guys could've done alot of things, but in the end they seem to only want to rerelease shadowwar. im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.
i played killteam that had options back in the day. what i see disappoints me. if your satisfied with playing yet another necromunda game then good for you.
maybe im a minority here. but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.
The game doesn't even have Terminators or Custodes in because in the current ruleset they are deemed too difficult to kill. So vehicles are way out.
Is it possible we'll see more further down the line? Sure. I don't think we'll ever get tanks, but Crisis, Sentinels, and MAYBE Killakans aren't totally impossible. I totally understand them being cautious and getting the infantry right for now though.
If you let me take a vehicle, I’m bringing a Taurox Prime with a Gatling Cannon. That’s 20 shots, plus the eight shots from my combined hot-shot volley guns. That’s gonna at least be two to three dead people, probably specialists. And, in most games, the Killteam is now at half models and is breaking, possibly losing, on turn one.
geargutz wrote: a squad has never dealt with a vehicle before in the history of 40k, heck the history of war?
Either they had anti-tank weapons (which I'll detail below) or were lucky, in an imblanaced situation.
Without nerfing the vehicles in some respect (such as bringing back firing arcs, limiting their maneuverability in dealing with multiple small targets, and making them considerably weaker to small arms fire and melee), they would not allow for balanced gameplay, which is what Kill Team's devs are working for.
a squad has never brought along an antitank weapon in case of the off chance of dealing with heavy armor?
When heavy armour isn't expected in the battlefield? Absolutely not. And if it is, Kill Team only permits for a small handful of such weapons (with some armies not having any at all - see any all-Primaris list), the bearers of which can be targeted out and creating an event larger imbalance.*
*Yes, I'm aware that anti-infantry weapons can also be taken out, making killing infantry harder. However, given that small arms weapons are already decent at infantry killing, the loss of power isn't that drastic.
adding larger models adds a new type of dimension to the game.
In a game which doesn't ask for new dimensions. You want that dimension? It already exists - 40k.
That would be like saying "I want battleship-to-ship warfare in regular 40k!" You can just play Battlefleet Gothic instead. Kill Team isn't about vehicles. It's about infantry.
add more variety
Variety at the expense of balance? No thank you.
Adding flyers into Kill Team adds variety. But it's not the point of what Kill Team is trying to be.
Adding power swords into the options of what Devastators can take adds variety. It's still a poor option on a unit which is encouraged to shoot.
killteam currently has very little options. some factions seem to only have 1 type of model (you poor harlequin players).
Because that's the kind of balance they're after. For a balanced game, they don't want models that are too tough to kill (Terminators, vehicles) and don't want things moving too fast (bikes, jump packs, etc etc).
Not to mention that Harlequins essentially only have one infantry unit anyway - were you really surprised that a game about infantry combat would meant that the faction with one infantry unit only got one unit?
in the end im not only disaponted there are not vehicles, im also dispointed of the lack of other iconic models.
theoretically if i wanted to play whitescars, then what are my lore friendly whitescar options? man, i cant wait to play foot sloggin whitescars.
White Scars have over 80 footslogging Marines in each Battle Company. They're not all "BIKEBIKEBIKE" as their flanderisation in the lore implies, no more so than Goffs never having Kommandos and Snakebites never having Flash Gitz. Whilst the Scars are all trained to fight on bikes, this harsh terrain and lack of support in the local area has meant that they must abandon their mounts to fight more effectively.
Consider that Narrative Forged!
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geargutz wrote: these guys could've done alot of things, but in the end they seem to only want to rerelease shadowwar. im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.
And that's okay. You're allowed preferences. However, you're trying to turn something that has a different design philosophy from what you want from a game into something it's not meant to be.
40k is what you want - a small points game of 40k with lots of vehicles.
i played killteam that had options back in the day. what i see disappoints me. if your satisfied with playing yet another necromunda game then good for you.
Back in the day Kill Teams could be horrifically broken because of things like vehicles and 2+ saves. Sincerely, someone who had to play against Riptides twice during a casual Kill Team event.
Bringing the focus to infantry brings in a different crowd of people than that of normal 40k. Normal 40k appeals to you - wonderful! Kill Team appeals to people who don't want the vehicles, tanky units, etc etc of normal 40k and focuses on infantry. And that's fine for them.
"Yet another Necromunda game" isn't really true. Sure, they're infantry focused, but Necro is about gang warfare, and doesn't feature the infantry in other factions. Kill Team does, and in that respect, is it;s own niche.
Otherwise, you could argue "40k has tanks and big formations of heavy units, so it's basically the same as Epic, if you're satisfied with playing yet another Epic game, good for you."
maybe im a minority here. but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.
Yeah, exactly - 40k has vehicles, bikers and meganobz. Kill Team =/= 40k.
Not sure if this is a troll thread, but the appeal of Kill Team is specifically the lack of monsters, vehicles, and tough elite options like terminators or dark reapers etc. Few options per army make it easy to balance and cheap to build your teams which are both strong selling points for the game imo. Sounds like the OP thinks this is supposed to be normal 40k with fewer points or something... In fact I'm super pleased that it's not.
hmm, your right, vehicles are sooooooooo overpowered, thats why every tournament list is jam packed with them. ive heard 8th edition is the parking lot edition.
Sigh.
Have you actually stopped to consider what's involved in killing a vehicle with the limited number of weapons available in kill team?
At BS3+ with no modifiers to have a 75% chance of reducing a dread to zero wounds (which doesn't actually kill it in kill team) you need:
12 krak missile shots (76.6%)
6 short range melta shots (75.9%)
13 overcharged plasmagun shots (77.1%)
Now add in the to hit modifiers that are everywhere and you create a condition where anyone not spamming anti weapons simply can't touch it.
No bothered about lack of vehicles more concerned with all the other issues
Lack of customisation despite the assertion that the reason to not use some factions was lack of plastic and hence customisation.
Poor choice of units available to some factions
Factions not even included
Kill Team isn't about vehicles. It's about infantry
Is it? What is the limit to Infantry - do we (as apparently will be the case) include Giant Wolf Marines riding Wolves?
Tyranid Warriors, Steatlh Suits and Lictors are not standard infantry.
Where is the ability to make those Elite special teams that GW stated was the point of the game
Cool I'll make some Guard Veterans - Catachans and Ork Hunters with close combat weapons with a medic and a couple of hardened gunmen, say one with a couple of pistols she has acquired
Ah well no - We don't have Veterans in the game - well yes you can roll them on our background chart but that's just for fun, no it doesn't actually make them veterans, Oh and sorry no close combat weapons, nope no 2 pistols.... a Medic - wll no you would need to be a Beastman to do that!
but er...... hey you can use this standard Cadian squad - or use your Catachans and pretend that they are Cadians - cos reasons.
Ok I'll use a few Aspect Warriors - mainly Scorpions sneaking behind the enemy lines like they do in the stories.
Ah well no actually - sneaky elder are Scouts - and well - oh yeah Guardians with Grav platforms - yeah sneaky.
easy for some to say. my mane facton is orks. tell me, what is the most efficiant ork competivie list right now? ill give you a hint, its nothin but infantry.
these guys that made kill team coulve taken the time to balance the pts to allow vehicles, to allow hvy power armor, to allow cutsodes. maybe they shouldve waited to release killteam and instead release codex orks and spacewolves instead.
one kilakan in a 2000pt list is worthless, just another bucket in the crowd of buckets. in killteam a killakan is a named character that has influence. he can turn the tide of the battle.
seeing a gunfight/fistfight between a few dudes is a dime a dozen in almost any form of media. when was the last time you saw infantry supported by a car sized robot? (the last time i saw that was maybe a Michel bay film). what you are satisfied with is something ive seen many times before. straight forward and boring. what i want to play has variety, has infantry, war buggies, centurions, terminators,bloodcrushers , wraithguard, crisis suits, sentinels, ogryn,tyrant guard,stormboyz,venoms and anything around 10 wounds.
what you want to play is a man sized dude shooting at another maybe taller dude, mixed with some stabbing.
these guys could've done alot of things, but in the end they seem to only want to rerelease shadowwar. im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.
i played killteam that had options back in the day. what i see disappoints me. if your satisfied with playing yet another necromunda game then good for you.
maybe im a minority here. but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.
One (1) release of GW kill team had the option for vehicles.
Originally, killteam (as released in 4th ed rulebook) had one player as the killteam and another commanding goons for them to kill. No vehicles.
In 5th ed it was just a special mission, not a supplement.
In 6th and 7th, KT did allow vehicles and this was marketed as a way to shift troops+vehicle bundles.
Heralds of Ruin added vehicles to their main rules as a supplement. The problem with HOR was that at 250+ points (to accommodate terminator squads etc) you were dealing with a small army at that point. Kill team was now KillPlatoon for guard and KillMob for Orks.
HoR is a labour of love but it is bloated beyond balance and recognition.
This killteam has substantially stripped down the points to 100 from the usual 200, returning the focus to squad v squad combat. You are right - this does cover the same ground as shadowwar- but it a more sustained way that should have longevity- SW:A was a flash in the pan release to a market crying out for 40k skirmish.
I recommend you try some small scale 40k, like [b]combat patrol[/b] to scratch your need to shoehorn vehicles into small scale games. The advantage is you don't have to learn a new ruleset- you can forge ahead with the current rulebook, with sensible restrictions on unit types and vehicle/monster wounds that you set.
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geargutz wrote: in killteam a killakan is a named character that has influence. he can turn the tide of the battle.
seeing a gunfight/fistfight between a few dudes is a dime a dozen in almost any form of media. when was the last time you saw infantry supported by a car sized robot? (the last time i saw that was maybe a Michel bay film). what you are satisfied with is something ive seen many times before. straight forward and boring. what i want to play has variety, has infantry, war buggies, centurions, terminators,bloodcrushers , wraithguard, crisis suits, sentinels, ogryn,tyrant guard,stormboyz,venoms and anything around 10 wounds.
In kill team the implication is that the attacker has bypassed the Titans, knights and main battletanks on the frontline (by virtue of being a small unit of 10 or less) in order to strike at the vulnerabilities beyond them..
Giant stompy robots and diesel belching warbuggies don't sound very covert. Maybe what you are looking for is a game called 'Kill horde' , a game where a mess of heavily armored warriors drive/stomp down the ramp of a transport shuttle (that is too small to accommodate anything larger than a dread or rhino)directly into combat with the defenders of a facility (that is too strategically unimportant to be guarded by anything larger than a dread or rhino.)
It just sounds like you want it to be a different game, which is fine, no game is for everyone. But it seems most people are happy with the scope that GW have decided this time.
Yep.
geargutz wrote: im not a fan of shadow war, im not a fan of necromunda.
Sounds like squad-level skirmish games aren't your bag, then.
geargutz wrote: but my viewpoint of 40k has vehicles in it, has bikers in it, has meganobz in it. anything that is yet another infantry combat game is yet another disappointment.
Hm, if only there were some sort of game out there that contained this stuff. Hmmm. HMMMMM.
In kill team the implication is that the attacker has bypassed the Titans, knights and main battletanks on the frontline (by virtue of being a small unit of 10 or less) in order to strike at the vulnerabilities beyond them..
Giant stompy robots and diesel belching warbuggies don't sound very covert. Maybe what you are looking for is a game called 'Kill horde' , a game where a mess of heavily armored warriors drive/stomp down the ramp of a transport shuttle (that is too small to accommodate anything larger than a dread or rhino)directly into combat with the defenders of a facility (that is too strategically unimportant to be guarded by anything larger than a dread or rhino.)
hmm, i would agree with you if these same guys were fighting in close quarters, hallway connecting hallway conecting small room.
but nope, what weve seen as marketed takes place between buildings. there's plenty of space.
horay! you got past the stompa. but if you think your spacemarines are safe from wraiths,obliterators,or heavy weapons team, you are sorely mistaken.
lets see here. when was this posted...august 2017? that is at least a year old.
i play orks, my kilakans are very overpriced, if i fought a codex eldar list with this ruleset i would not be anymore satisfied then when i play normal 40k.
why am i giving killteam so much shade? its the new thing, it has modified points, it will be popular,and thus easier to get games for and with better balance then what im used to...but it doesnt have much variety. so little is included from all factions, even if its just infantry only, where are the kroot?
Dismissing something that’s less than a year old due to perceived issues with one specific faction is daft. Also, there’ll be an Ork codex soon and hopefully that will resolve some of the costing issues we have.
Expecting GW to create a whole new game just to solve a problem in 40K that’s got a likely solution already on the horizon is a pretty sure-fire road to disappointment, I’d say.
CWE, for instance, can take 1 Missile Launcher *or* Brightlance (and not on a Reaper - they aren't in the game). They can also take, I believe, up to 2 MeltaGuns. That's as much anti-tank as they can take. No Plas (outside of a StarCannon instead of an ML or BL). No other anti-vehicle. Nothing but Shuriken and swords. How would they take on a vehicle?
I mean, I might ask a local if they want to try a KillTeam with a Vyper some day. Or do a custom scenario where someone's Killteam encounters a WarWalker and need to silence it. Or a Whirlwind (with an opposing Marine force defending it, and the WW putting all shots downrange - that sounds like an amazing game!). But the rules as written don't handle vehicles well.
That said, the rules are extremely limited. Like, moreso than even the same units in 40k (no Powerswords for CWE). I may try to get some of the locals to give HoR a try if GW's KillTeam doesn't impress.
Ah well no - We don't have Veterans in the game - well yes you can roll them on our background chart but that's just for fun, no it doesn't actually make them veterans, Oh and sorry no close combat weapons, nope no 2 pistols.... a Medic - wll no you would need to be a Beastman to do that!
They are Veterans, thats why they have specialist skills.....
Just because they are not the exact unit from 40k doesnt mean that they can't be veterans of combat. Theyre different rulesets. Think of 40k Veterans as Veteran veterans lol. When they get to lvel 3-4 I imagine their combat abilities would be similar to the 40k Veteran unit (both fluff and rules-wise, taking all the re-rolls etc into account against the 40ks 3+BS)
If it reallly bothers you that much play open play/narrative. There are also, atm, no Guard Veteran models. They removed the 'veteran' units of Kabalites and Wyches a while ago if I remember correctly in 40k too
Mr Morden wrote: Ok I'll use a few Aspect Warriors - mainly Scorpions sneaking behind the enemy lines like they do in the stories.
Ah well no actually - sneaky elder are Scouts - and well - oh yeah Guardians with Grav platforms - yeah sneaky.
Mr Morden wrote:No bothered about lack of vehicles more concerned with all the other issues
Lack of customisation despite the assertion that the reason to not use some factions was lack of plastic and hence customisation.
Poor choice of units available to some factions
Factions not even included
I won't lie, there's some things that are problems with Kill Team. I'm sure that some things could be added that wouldn't affect the "balance" too much.
However, it's clearly a design intention that models with 2+ saves or a movement over 8" are banned. Maybe they'll come later, but for now, they're excluded for the same reason vehicles are - because they're not the intended units to be fielded.
As for Factions not being included, there's only about three which should have a presence, and one of those three has a good reason why it's been held back. Custodes have a 2+ save, so not wanted. Inquisition and Sisters of Silence probably could be taken. Sisters of Battle are being held off because they're awaiting new kits soon. The fact they're doing this fills me with some hope that the Sisters will get some new units and stuff when they get revamped.
Kill Team isn't about vehicles. It's about infantry
Is it? What is the limit to Infantry - do we (as apparently will be the case) include Giant Wolf Marines riding Wolves?
Thunderwolves don't exist yet. Again, if the game expands to encompass them, then clearly my statement will be outdated, but currently, the game is about Infantry.
Tyranid Warriors, Steatlh Suits and Lictors are not standard infantry.
Where is the ability to make those Elite special teams that GW stated was the point of the game
Anything can be elite if you want it to be. Give it cool fluff, and then you have an elite crack team.
Oh, you mean rules? That's what the specialisations are for!
Cool I'll make some Guard Veterans - Catachans and Ork Hunters with close combat weapons with a medic and a couple of hardened gunmen, say one with a couple of pistols she has acquired
Ah well no - We don't have Veterans in the game - well yes you can roll them on our background chart but that's just for fun, no it doesn't actually make them veterans, Oh and sorry no close combat weapons, nope no 2 pistols.... a Medic - wll no you would need to be a Beastman to do that!
You can absolutely make people Veterans. Take the Veteran specialisation. Other than that, what is the difference between a Veteran and normal Guardsman? +1 BS? If it matters that much, take the Sniper specialisation.
As for wargear, that's a shame, agreed.
but er...... hey you can use this standard Cadian squad - or use your Catachans and pretend that they are Cadians - cos reasons.
There's no in-game difference between Cadians and Catachans in the game, as far as I've seen. Your choice of models.
Nothing's stopping you converting up some kickass Catachan Ork Hunters.
Ok I'll use a few Aspect Warriors - mainly Scorpions sneaking behind the enemy lines like they do in the stories.
Agreed, Scorpions should be present.
Ah well no actually - sneaky elder are Scouts - and well - oh yeah Guardians with Grav platforms - yeah sneaky.
Why wouldn't a grav platform be sneaky? It's man portable, and can hover.
geargutz wrote:"just play regular 40k, it has vehicles"
easy for some to say. my mane facton is orks. tell me, what is the most efficiant ork competivie list right now? ill give you a hint, its nothin but infantry.
Nothing's stopping you playing that. Especially at lower points and a smaller board, with less heavy weapon saturation, your vehicles will last longer.
these guys that made kill team coulve taken the time to balance the pts to allow vehicles, to allow hvy power armor, to allow cutsodes. maybe they shouldve waited to release killteam and instead release codex orks and spacewolves instead.
Or, for the rest of us who'd rather have Kill Team (and would probably get them more money), Kill Team coming earlier is good!
Orks should have had their Codex a long time ago, though.
Kill Team had no responsibility to balance vehicles, because they're clearly not the priority for the game. If you want vehicles, it's not worth looking in the gametype which is pretty much tailored to be non-vehicle. Would you expect to see infantry in Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus?
one kilakan in a 2000pt list is worthless, just another bucket in the crowd of buckets. in killteam a killakan is a named character that has influence. he can turn the tide of the battle.
So play a 300 point game. Then your Killa Kan is a character with influence. Hell, you can take multiple!
seeing a gunfight/fistfight between a few dudes is a dime a dozen in almost any form of media. when was the last time you saw infantry supported by a car sized robot? (the last time i saw that was maybe a Michel bay film). what you are satisfied with is something ive seen many times before. straight forward and boring. what i want to play has variety, has infantry, war buggies, centurions, terminators,bloodcrushers , wraithguard, crisis suits, sentinels, ogryn,tyrant guard,stormboyz,venoms and anything around 10 wounds.
If you play a 500 point game of 40k, you can have this.
It sounds like you just want to play small games of 40k with lots of terrain. Nothing's stopping you!
what you want to play is a man sized dude shooting at another maybe taller dude, mixed with some stabbing.
If you don't like the sound of it, play something else. Let the people who want infantry combat play Kill Team. You still have normal 40k to play.
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geargutz wrote: hmm, i would agree with you if these same guys were fighting in close quarters, hallway connecting hallway conecting small room.
but nope, what weve seen as marketed takes place between buildings. there's plenty of space.
horay! you got past the stompa. but if you think your spacemarines are safe from wraiths,obliterators,or heavy weapons team, you are sorely mistaken.
So play a small game of 40k in the "place between buildings".
lets see here. when was this posted...august 2017? that is at least a year old.
i play orks, my kilakans are very overpriced, if i fought a codex eldar list with this ruleset i would not be anymore satisfied then when i play normal 40k.
Nothing's stopping you adapting those rules (which aren't even that outdated, it's not like you're taking something from Rogue Trader).
why am i giving killteam so much shade? its the new thing, it has modified points, it will be popular,and thus easier to get games for and with better balance then what im used to...but it doesnt have much variety. so little is included from all factions, even if its just infantry only, where are the kroot?
Not to beat a dead horse, but you're expecting too much from a game clearly not marketed towards you.
Kill Team won't fix your Orks. The Codex might. Kill Team is focused on infantry squad combat. 40k can cover anything from a small patrol with various assets to full scale company level combat. A 500 point game with lots of terrain will fulfil what you want just fine.
Yes, there are some units which probably should be in Kill Team. Vehicles are not one of them.
I’d like to see more infantry choices in Kill team (aspects, terminators, etc.), but I’m fine with no vehicles.
Now, I wouldn’t mind if you could fit some light vehicles into the game (bikes, sentinels, robots) as maybe a 0-1 option, as long as you could still bring 3 or more troops along with it. Still limiting to 100 points, though.
I’d also be willing to consider heavier vehicles - dreadnought, rhino, chimera and someshuch as a sort of super heavy for one-off “Kill the beast” sort of scenarios. Again, still restricting to 100 or perhaps slightly more points, and in some cases with heavy restrictions (perhaps the vehicle isn’t started yet and the crew has to turn her on, or it’s lost its primary weapon system and just has the sponsons or pintle weapons - or maybe even the enemy has to sap the Deathstrike before it launches...).
I'm actually fine with it being all infantry and limiting options at least initially. The 200 point 6th edition version was very open and that was fun but it lead to some very broken combos. Between a new emphasis on terrain, multiple floors and intense one on one combat this version looks very promising.
"play something else"
always seems like a troll post when someone says this.
killteam for me was 10 ork boyz, 1 bigmek meganob, 2 killakanz. started my love/hate relationship with this hobby.
"play something else"
i started the game at the end of 6th edition. i was so excited to play with my new shiny 7th edition codex. i played it, i did a tournament and my dreddmob got stomped
"play something else"
the decurians were all the rage, they took formations to the next step. "just wait for waaagh ghazkull, it will have great formations and decurians as well", it came out, wasnt great, then the reprinted one came out....i was the 1st time i actualy wrote to GW with a complaint
"play something else"
8th edition is here, im so excited, i love most of the changes with the core rules. loved how they handled vehicles. big names in the 40k community were singing praises to the orks "cough-reese-couph". took the 8th edition dreddmob to a tournament.....it didnt go well
"play something else"
chapter approved comes out, it changed very little (a far cry from the knockout that was generals handbook). bad strategems/warlord traits/ points changes
"play something else"
8th edition has has now been out a year, many factions got their codexes. they just announced orks and spacewolves will be next. at this point im more tired of waiting then hopefull.
"play something else"
"hey,this is gw, were are sneak peeking some cool knew minis..its gsc".
"play something else"
warhammer facebook has a simple battle report that shows how awesome the knight castelen is as it rips through 13 killa kans.
"play something else"
killteam anounced. man this brings back memories of what brought me into this hoby. whats it going to be like?
no killkans, no meganobz, no stormboys, no bikers...
"play something else"
"your codex is right around the corner, stop complaining, if your not happy with it then...play something else"
i look at over 10,000 pts of orks collecting dust on my shelf. everything is converted to be unique, to be orky,
there's no turning back. i cant sell what i love. there has been very little hope for my lot in the community.
You guys realizing you're responding to a troll thread right? I don't think I've seen him give a single answer that wasn't insulting or condescending despite the mountains of evidence and experience presented to him.
geargutz wrote: i look at over 10,000 pts of orks collecting dust on my shelf. everything is converted to be unique, to be orky,
there's no turning back. i cant sell what i love. there has been very little hope for my lot in the community.
You've absolutely missed my point.
When I say "play something else", I mean, "play anything except Kill Team". That includes regular 40k, which is far more what you're after. You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want. You think Orks have bad rules? I'm inclined to agree, but that's got nothing to do with Kill Team. So, your issue with Orks, which is a perfectly valid one, doesn't explain why you're expecting Kill Team to fix it.
MrMoustaffa wrote: You guys realizing you're responding to a troll thread right? I don't think I've seen him give a single answer that wasn't insulting or condescending despite the mountains of evidence and experience presented to him.
hmm, what makes a troll thread?
is it something i said?
to not be a troll thread do i have to immediately agree with the 1st person who disagrees with me?
insulting or condescending...you can list the times i have been in this thread if you want to support your claim.
this is my genuine viewpoint, it seems many disagree with me, and some who agree with some things ive said. does that make it a troll thread?
so far there has been a small to no amount of vitriol or bitter words in this thread. those who disagree with me have been fair in their arguments and their opinions as far as i can tell.
geargutz wrote: i look at over 10,000 pts of orks collecting dust on my shelf. everything is converted to be unique, to be orky,
there's no turning back. i cant sell what i love. there has been very little hope for my lot in the community.
You've absolutely missed my point.
When I say "play something else", I mean, "play anything except Kill Team". That includes regular 40k, which is far more what you're after. You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want.
You think Orks have bad rules? I'm inclined to agree, but that's got nothing to do with Kill Team. So, your issue with Orks, which is a perfectly valid one, doesn't explain why you're expecting Kill Team to fix it.
Why won't that work for you?
i wasn't only responding to you, but fair enough, you just meant something else to play in "40k", that post was more or less me venting about the concept of "just play something else".
though you say to just play normal 40k "You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want."
the issue with that is how bad all those units are in normal 40k. i would liek to have a normal pickup game with those models and not expect to be curb stomped.
maybe the codex will come out and all will be balanced and i will eat my words, but for now killteam is hogging all the spotlight.
ill blame nostalgia, with my original experiences with killteam im not happy about current killteam, and since there has been no official rumors or sneak peaks of codex orks, killteam is now my punching bag of worn patience and frustration. maybe ive projected a little too much onto the current release of killteam, but not everyone has completely disagreed with me, and that soothes my nerves some.
geargutz wrote: i wasn't only responding to you, but fair enough, you just meant something else to play in "40k", that post was more or less me venting about the concept of "just play something else".
Nah, fair enough, I thought you just meant me!
though you say to just play normal 40k "You can have all the Kans, the Meganobz, the Stormboyz, the Bikers, anything you want."
the issue with that is how bad all those units are in normal 40k. i would liek to have a normal pickup game with those models and not expect to be curb stomped.
Unfortunately, that's a 40k issue, and not a Kill Team one. Just being in Kill Team wouldn't fix those units, it would just be throwing them into an environment where the other units are really not designed to fight them.
It'd be like taking a bolter into a contest where only melee weapons are used. Sure, the bolter's not great, but when it's not being threatened by other ranged weapons, it's great by design.
maybe the codex will come out and all will be balanced and i will eat my words, but for now killteam is hogging all the spotlight.
It just came out? It's hardly like it's been dominating things for over a year. When Orks get released, I fully expect a massive wave of Ork related material to dominate Games Workshop's media feeds.
It's like complaining that AoS got all the attention when it was first released - because it's a new thing, and new game system to boot.
ill blame nostalgia, with my original experiences with killteam im not happy about current killteam, and since there has been no official rumors or sneak peaks of codex orks, killteam is now my punching bag of worn patience and frustration. maybe ive projected a little too much onto the current release of killteam, but not everyone has completely disagreed with me, and that soothes my nerves some.
I think you are right - Kill Team wasn't made for everyone, and it's not at fault for doing that.
It's being designed as a more balanced game, which from my personal experiences, I'd vastly prefer. Are there things I'd change with it, things I'd add? Sure, but if I want to, I'll ask my opponents if we can houserule units and rules in. As long as unkilleable units and imbalanced matchups are kept out, I'll be happy.
As for Orks, I hate to say it, but hang on to your teef - Space Wolves have also had nothing lately, and most Codexes haven't had great sneak peeks prior to release. As per usual, there are some armies who need to wait longer (hang in there Sisters!), but you'll get your Codex soon. If it'll be good, I can't say, but I can more confidently say that if you can organise some low points level games with plenty of terrain, you'll have a very enjoyable time even without it.
Very happy there are no vehicles. Happy in general to be playing with a relatively small pool of models, as it will be theoretically "easier" to balance things against each other that way.
Vehicles would work perfectly well as terrain in kill team.
I agree with some of the points here - vehicles would screw up the balance.
However, on the flip side, it would have been cool to allow alternate point counts to allow for vehicles. It could work just fine - you'd just need a more detailed system. Maybe the ability to target subsystems, weapons, bring back facings for vehicles, etc.
However, a counter to my own argument is: "wow that looks too complex". As someone who enjoys a few niche tabletop games with much much better rules than 40k - this is a common complaint. Anything more complex than candyland seems to push away people who are even moderately interested in starting a game. I'd really like it if GW was open to doing 2 sets of rules. Basic and advanced. Basic rulesets could draw in new fans or make for faster games, while advanced rules would allow for greater tactical depth.
Snark not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.
We get what we get, y'know? We can wish for things all day long, but that won't change what's in the rulebook.
I'm not enthused with kill team rules. Tyranid Warriors are 20 points and are necessary for synapse. Essentially you have 80 points plus a base kit warrior. The second that warrior dies your dudes go insane.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.
I'm inclined to believe some people here could write better rules than GW. However, i wouldn't argue they'd sell better than GW's rulesets. GW geared 8th towards being easy to understand and fast at the cost of pretty much everything else.
Homebrew rules are fine, but it's kind of a bad argument 'you can just make homebrew rules'. Homebrew rules aren't vetted by 1000s of people playing, are prone to bias and personal preference and most importantly, aren't going to be accepted by the majority of players you will find. If GW had either better rules or a 2nd set of advanced rules - they'd have much more backing than whatever mad scribbles some guy from your local shop scrawled on a napkin.
There are already some very well done alternate rules, esp for alternating activations for 40k, but nobody uses them. The set I've seen went out of it's way to in no way disrupt the base 40k game. It *only* changed activations - so in theory shouldn't change anything besides 1st turn game-enders. Still, I've never seen anyone use the set. If GW stuck it in a chapter approved as 'advanced/optional', it would likely become the standard. That official backing is everything.
That is true, but it isn't the majority of players clamoring for these additional rules. It's a few people. If those few people want to play the game differently, they can. If they have to find like-minded or permissive opponents to do so with, that's on them to figure out. Even discussing it is sort of an exercise in futility, but that isn't stopping us, I suppose.
Marmatag wrote: I'm not enthused with kill team rules. Tyranid Warriors are 20 points and are necessary for synapse. Essentially you have 80 points plus a base kit warrior. The second that warrior dies your dudes go insane.
Warriors are one of the toughest models available in the game and it's easy to make it very difficult to hit the warrior in the first place with the new cover rules.
Were you expecting tyranids to not have to deal with synapse?
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Snark not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.
We get what we get, y'know? We can wish for things all day long, but that won't change what's in the rulebook.
Neither will shrugging our shoulders and purchasing rules or models we're not crazy about. It's baffling to read post after post by people who have issues with a game, then go out and purchase the thing they're criticizing, then get upset about the thing after they buy it, and completely miss the connection between that thing making a profit and rules or models they don't like.
For the OP- I think it might be okay for light vehicles in an expansion down the line, but I think it's best for Kill Team to focus on infantry. Now, that focus could be deeper, but that's a different discussion.
Leave the vehicles at home. With no vehicles and the largest base size at 40mm, that means you can bring the terrain closer together and have tight corridor fights. Add vehicles in there, and you suddenly have to spread the terrain out more, which defeats the whole purpose of an elite squad of troops running from cover to cover to combat their foes.
You want vehicles? Go play 40k, you know, that huge game where you can take all of the units that people are complaining aren't in Kill Team.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: Snark not directed at anyone in particular, but in general, there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.
We get what we get, y'know? We can wish for things all day long, but that won't change what's in the rulebook.
Neither will shrugging our shoulders and purchasing rules or models we're not crazy about. It's baffling to read post after post by people who have issues with a game, then go out and purchase the thing they're criticizing, then get upset about the thing after they buy it, and completely miss the connection between that thing making a profit and rules or models they don't like.
For the OP- I think it might be okay for light vehicles in an expansion down the line, but I think it's best for Kill Team to focus on infantry. Now, that focus could be deeper, but that's a different discussion.
Exactly. Someone who isn’t happy with the game shouldn’t buy it. You’ve hit the nail on the head.
Or you could possibly even just stick to HoR if you want vehicles. Or go over to Proposed Rules and start a Kill Team discussion about how you'd implement vehicles. You have options other than "grumble on the Internet and then play the GW rules anyway" or "quit in a huff", you know.
AnomanderRake wrote: Or you could possibly even just stick to HoR if you want vehicles. Or go over to Proposed Rules and start a Kill Team discussion about how you'd implement vehicles. You have options other than "grumble on the Internet and then play the GW rules anyway" or "quit in a huff", you know.
I'm excited to see what HoR does. This new version of Kill Team looks fun, but does not have as much freedom as previous versions.
The Kill Team supplement for 7th edition had a few variant scenarios to mix things up. One was that one side takes a Big Thing not normally allowed by the rules (a powerful character, a Monstrous Creature, a vehicle, etc) and the other side gets a standard Kill Team with double the usual number of Specialists.
I played this a couple of times. Firstly, I took a Vindicare Assassin against a Space Marine Tactical Squad - the Assassin won handily, even when the Marines charged him - he just had to kill them one at a time with his pistol, which only slowed him down a little. The other time was when I took an Imperial Guard team against a Carnifex. I kitted a couple of guys out with a melta bomb, a demo charge and a Demolitions specialist. The plan was that they'd attack in pairs - one guy had a skill that made it much harder for the Carnifex to hit in melee, then the other guy would use the melta bomb on it. Sadly, the first guy falied his charge, and the guy with the bomb got eaten. Eventually, I just ran away from it a pelted it with krak grenades until it finally died, with two Guardsmen remaining.
There will be nothing stopping you doing something like this when the game is released - the Kill Team datasheets are sufficiently similar to 40k that you should be able to transfer them from 40k to Kill Team. With multi-crewed vehicles, I'd suggest giving each crew station its own separate activation For a Leman Russ, that would mean the main gun, each sponson, the hull weapon (fired by the driver) and the pintle-mounted weapon (fired by the commander) would each fire separately during the Shooting phase. Also, I don't know if Kill Team uses firing arcs - if so, I'd consider what the fire arcs of each weapon system should be (for a Leman Russ, the main weapon is clearly a turret 360degree fire arc, the sponsons are 90degrees from the midline to either side and the hull weapon is 90degrees centred on the midline).
Also, I wouldn't give the vehicles any "benefits" when setting up terrain - if it gets hemmed in by buildings and rubble, then good - that's precisely the situation it'd be in if it comes under attack by a single infantry squad.
Personal Kill Team to me is what Kill Team is, a small specialized team fighting other somewhere. So I am looking forward to it and having less models to walk around and carry on the train
Maybe in the future they'll release a expansion for small vehicles or walkers.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Vehicles in a game where you can target the anti-tank weapon holders separately seems like a pretty bad idea!
Exactly. You have limited numbers of meltaguns and by the time you add in negative modifiers they need 3-4 turns of shooting to kill a dread. There is no way they're going to survive that long.
Imagine a CWE team with 2 Fusions (Meltaguns) on Guardsmen bodies and a Brightlance (think Lascannon) on a pair of Marine bodies.
How well would that handle a Dread or Rhino or Killa Kan?
That's all-in on anti-tank weaponry for a CWE team. As in, once those 3 models are dead, it's just small arms. And that means no other heavy/special weapons. Plus, no CC weapons above S4.
In 7th KT's I used a list with three armored sentinels. Even with just the basic multi-lasers, they tended to stomp people. They were just too hard to kill, and with the ability to target the weapons that could actually hurt them, it was far too easy to set up no-win situations for my opponents.
That list got retired, except for "big shots" games.
wuestenfux wrote: Not sure if a game with 5 dudes has a point.
A vehicle would add another dimension.
I've played 4v4 Battletech for years. Lower scope means more granularity. I like that I can get people into the game by having them buy/ buying them a single box and they're up and running. By the time you hit vehicles you're running a game of a completely different scope and would need completely different design philosophies. Should a dedicated game exist that's around Combat Patrol in scope exist? Possibly. However this feels like complaining an orange isn't an apple and being annoyed when people say they still want an orange instead of an apple.
To be honest the game all look fine, and plays well too, I did have 2 demo games in store using my heretic astartes team against my friends death guard plaguemarine team, and naturally I got wrecked due to toughness 5, disgustingly resilient and then the extra layer of fleshwound saves..
Vehicles is an obvious no go, even terminators couldn't be made to work given the current rules, I found plague marines as hard as cataphracti terminators to put down even shooting them with plasma, heavy bolters and power fists..
What I would say is they've really skimped out on the units most factions can choose, and haven't made up for it by allowing the more restricted one to choose (pay points) for better gear. My chaos space marine list for example is restricted to being kitted out just the same as they can be in 8th, and unless I take cultists, which Id really rather not they have no chance to even be slightly competitive against certain factions. I like that Stealthsuits, primaris, plague marines, and tyrand warriors are in it, but they really shouldn't have been, if possessed, chosen or havoks aren't, it's extremely biased to certain factions and limiting the scope hugely for potential play styles.. going to actually write GW an email and whinge at them, not that it'll make 1 I-fething-ota of a difference
kill team is meant to be a faster paced game that's suppose to be accessible for everyone, adding vehicles now diminishes that part. Now you're talking about a vehicle that you will probably have to magnetize because no one wants to buy more than one. You're talking about painting a vehicle now and spending more money. If you include vehicles you'll have to make the play area bigger that makes more terrain must. It's suppose to be a small scale infantry battle, adding vehicles makes it less of a simple fast game.
As someone who ran a rhino in 7th edition kill team, it does fundamentally change the flavour of the game and, frequently, spits on the idea of what Kill Teams is supposed to be about.
It was even worse back then because rhinos still had fire points, but players rarely took anti-vehicle weapons at all. I can't say it completely broke the game because on at least a few occasions I played against someone who had an effective direct counter to it, but against most it was brutal, often down right unfair.
If I want vehicles, I'll play a normal game of 40K. I for one am glad that Kill Team is the way that it is. Even if I want to spam something, it's at least reasonable here. Much better than buying something like 4 Stormravens.
I think vehicles would be better as stratagems. Spend some CP to get a 1 time attack or other effects. Would represent assets in the area that aren't committed to the mission, but could be temporarily diverted to assist the Kill Team.
I played with skimmers back in the 6th/ 7th edition and it breaks the flow and feel of the game. Not to mention it makes the game much harder to balance.
Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote: there are players convinced they could design the game much better than GW could. They could just write some homebrewed rules for vehicles and whatever else they want, then play with those rules. Everyone else not so inclined will vote with their wallet, so to speak, and buy the game if they like it, and will not if they don't.
I'm inclined to believe some people here could write better rules than GW. However, i wouldn't argue they'd sell better than GW's rulesets. GW geared 8th towards being easy to understand and fast at the cost of pretty much everything else.
Homebrew rules are fine, but it's kind of a bad argument 'you can just make homebrew rules'. Homebrew rules aren't vetted by 1000s of people playing, are prone to bias and personal preference and most importantly, aren't going to be accepted by the majority of players you will find. If GW had either better rules or a 2nd set of advanced rules - they'd have much more backing than whatever mad scribbles some guy from your local shop scrawled on a napkin.
There are already some very well done alternate rules, esp for alternating activations for 40k, but nobody uses them. The set I've seen went out of it's way to in no way disrupt the base 40k game. It *only* changed activations - so in theory shouldn't change anything besides 1st turn game-enders. Still, I've never seen anyone use the set. If GW stuck it in a chapter approved as 'advanced/optional', it would likely become the standard. That official backing is everything.
Elbows here uses AA40k. I did a similar spin on it too. I also used that for BFG and so forth. It's relatively uncommon, yes, but not entirely nonextinct and with good company makes for excellent games.
Regarding the topic, as someone who was around during the initial 4th ed. Kill Team, I for one am very glad the initial base rules stick to what it wants to be: a small scale infantry vs. infantry game. Of course, the mook system back then did differ from this and so forth, but this is fine too. As a fervent proponent of "your game, own it" I'd also suggest trying those cool dudes like kans and terminators out with your group if they'd like that, but not getting too hung up on it if they don't because that is not what this game as such is supposed to be anyway. It's the Dirty Dozen all over in great neon letters, with bad enough dudes whacking other bad enough dudes into the dust somewhere far from actual massed battles. Having nothing larger than a pile of grenades to get you by is part of the charm.
Bharring wrote: Imagine a CWE team with 2 Fusions (Meltaguns) on Guardsmen bodies and a Brightlance (think Lascannon) on a pair of Marine bodies.
How well would that handle a Dread or Rhino or Killa Kan?
That's all-in on anti-tank weaponry for a CWE team. As in, once those 3 models are dead, it's just small arms. And that means no other heavy/special weapons. Plus, no CC weapons above S4.
How do you balance against that?
It gets worse than that: for the Thousand Sons, the highest strength weapon available to the entire faction is the Aspiring Sorcerer's S6 force staff, while the strongest gun is the S5 soulreaper cannon. Both of which you get exactly one of in your kill team. Necrons are similarly boned with nothing stronger than the S5 gauss blaster.
Guardsmen are actually 5 points in Kill Team. This may be a hint at what we can expect in Chapter Approved, but probably not since points are very different across the board, and radically so when it comes to weapons (I doubt anyone is expecting the warpflamer to go down from 15 points to 4 in 40k).
I'd laugh if the Eldar Missile Launcher went down to 4 to match Kill Team, but the IoM Missile Launcher stayed where it was because it's not in KT IIUC (it's not in the SM kit).
I'm a little terrified, because while it seems unlikely, it doesn't seem as unlikely as it should.
Bharring wrote: Imagine a CWE team with 2 Fusions (Meltaguns) on Guardsmen bodies and a Brightlance (think Lascannon) on a pair of Marine bodies.
How well would that handle a Dread or Rhino or Killa Kan?
That's all-in on anti-tank weaponry for a CWE team. As in, once those 3 models are dead, it's just small arms. And that means no other heavy/special weapons. Plus, no CC weapons above S4.
How do you balance against that?
It gets worse than that: for the Thousand Sons, the highest strength weapon available to the entire faction is the Aspiring Sorcerer's S6 force staff, while the strongest gun is the S5 soulreaper cannon. Both of which you get exactly one of in your kill team. Necrons are similarly boned with nothing stronger than the S5 gauss blaster.
Good luck killing a dreadnought with that.
1kSons at least get to throw mind bolts around, they don't care about toughness. But yeah, no need for vehicles in Kill Team.
Glad not to see vehicles in Kill Team, It's not really about that.
Thematically it'd be cool to build and model your own 'A-Team' van for your squad of elite dudes so do that. It'd always look great as terrain, an objective, for a themed mission or for occasional use against a willing opponent with some pre-balancing and permission.
The game is balanced - or at least GW attempts to have it balanced - for the 100 points mark. To include vehicles in any meaningful way is simply not possible under those coditions.
That should stop nobody to try out some housrules. Either by raising the point limits, or by designing scenarios around specific vehicles.
I realise this is an old thread, but I found it because I googled 'vehicles in Kill team'.
I have a very simple solution.
Before that though, my son (11) and I prefer kill team. it plays quicker overall and also there is much less time waiting for the other guys to do stuff. So it suits an 11 year old well and suits me because we can play shorter games.
However ......... we do miss our favourite models and they were mostly vehicles.
Anyway perhaps GW have provided the solution to this in the form of the 'Commanders' rules.
Substitute a Kill team commander with a light vehicle, walker etc.
My all scout Kill team could have a Sentinel walker commander. (open cockpit with him waving a plasma pistol and a combi weapon on the side and or chainsaw underneath)
I thought I could make my iron hands Kill team a Kit bashed Contemptor dreadnought Commander - maybe kitbash the armour a bit to make it look 'less tough'. (S4 and 5W worth of rough)
and my sons Space marines army now has a 'Command ship' as apposed to a Commander in the form of a Landspeeder.
All these come on 60mm bases and are very easy to set up with various weapons options compatible with the commander rules.
I found a datasheet online that had been made up by someone using the space marine commander Kill team stats. Ill attach it. 5 wounds and 4 attack seems fine for a sentinel walker or landspeeder in terms of 'narative' or fluff.
You'll have to use the other stats for the other factions.
And Lo ..... now you have your favourite light vehicle on the table and a set of approved rules.
I haven't tried this so i would be interested to hear your thoughts or comments.
Like you say it is a personal preference thing. Personally I love troops and think the heavier vehicles are a blight on 40k, so I would be wary of introducing vehicles to kill team.
The base killteam game based around troops is perfect for me!
Considering the fact that even the UR-025 is pretty tough (T5 W4 3+Sv) and soaks up a round or two of concentrated fire, imagine fighting against, let's say, Chimera. (T6 W11 3+ IIRC) Literally unkillable, unless you give every faction a dedicated anti-tank weapon. It would lead to further unbalance and people would spam meltas, in case some fuccwit brings a vehicle.
Hawky wrote: Considering the fact that even the UR-025 is pretty tough (T5 W4 3+Sv) and soaks up a round or two of concentrated fire, imagine fighting against, let's say, Chimera. (T6 W11 3+ IIRC) Literally unkillable, unless you give every faction a dedicated anti-tank weapon. It would lead to further unbalance and people would spam meltas, in case some fuccwit brings a vehicle.
So, no.
I wasn't thinking large vehicles would be viable ....... and I wasn't thinking of modifying the existing rules or indeed game play. ( I agree with Kroem the base game mechanics seem fine ..... and actually I haven't played with the commanders rules so maybe the whole idea is moot.)
But my point was that If the vehicle adopts the characteristics of the Command character ....... the vehicle is just as kill-able as he would have been..... it just has to be light vehicles for the narrative logic to still make sense.
With a scout sentinel or a land speeder the pilots are visible and shoot-able and once in combat the hydraulics or underside is vulnerable.
For example, dropping the Sentinels S T and W by 1 isn't a huge leap.
Its obviously only worth bothering if you like light vehicles on the table top ........ which I do ..... and I know my son will enjoy the fact that he can use his landspeeder again as he was rather proud of the paint job he did.
There is plenty of space within the rules for custom missions involving vehicles. More work you put in the better it will be.
Also, When introducing tanks(rather than APCs) I find A full city board helps a lot. Enabling foot units to move around more, and giving movement restrictions to a tank adds a lot tot he game.
Narrative for vehicles i think is the best way to go.
Creating missions with no go zones, But with risk.
Last stand, with a unknown convoy moving though a city to pick up important Intel or stolen goods.
Drop mission into hot zone, with anti air weapons. Forcing a player to make a choice on position to drop.
Then complete a mission and then get out on the Drop vehicle they come in on.
Can be fun for a player to have to decide how long they can have a drop ship or APC sitting there under fire. To complete the mission. And the chance it all goes pear shape. Turning it into a last stand battle
Really there is no limit. One of the first ones we did, was a bunch of IG having to repair a broken chimera why small group of Tyranids try and eat them.
With choice of what they repair first, Weapon, engine, or tracks.
