When 8th edition came out, I remember reading either in an article on the warhammer community website or white dwarf that normal "old" marines could be upgraded possibly to primaris variants. I don't have a link as it was just a single sentance out of all the prerelease hype but I'm sure it was floated as an idea by one of the GW designers in the interview. Did they ever follow that blurb up with anything more in any of the marine codex books or Black Library novels in the year since?
I count it as canon, and if not canon, my headcanon. No-one's denied it, and it's hardly been enough time elapsed to say "it's outdated". Besides, it was my main reason for starting a new Primaris Chapter.
Again, how many Primaris exclusive books have there been since the Gathering Storm?
warboss wrote: When 8th edition came out, I remember reading either in an article on the warhammer community website or white dwarf that normal "old" marines could be upgraded possibly to primaris variants. I don't have a link as it was just a single sentance out of all the prerelease hype but I'm sure it was floated as an idea by one of the GW designers in the interview. Did they ever follow that blurb up with anything more in any of the marine codex books or Black Library novels in the year since?
They've most likely gone silent on it, because people like myself saw that they are obviously going to replace old marines for Primaris; seeing that old characters are going to magically become Primaris. I've already started just Primaris and I convert other units from the old Space Wolves models, like TWC etc. Plus they just look so much cooler, old marines look like squats now. Not bothered about there height much, but now you realise how out of proportion they actually are.
I agree on their ultimate goal with them and also appreciate the new proportions. While I dislike their fluff, I appreciate the new models and don't think I could go back to getting excited about classic marines. During the initial announcement, I coined the term Adeptus Restartes and Secondus Marines due to my feelings on the court changes. I'd have preferred if Cawl just kept a secret stash of "pure" 30k marines and extra geneseed slowly grown in clones for 10k years and instead just made new tech for them to use.
The only potential part of their fluff that interested me was the part about upgrading standard marines.
warboss wrote: I agree on their ultimate goal with them and also appreciate the new proportions. While I dislike their fluff, I appreciate the new models and don't think I could go back to getting excited about classic marines. During the United announcement, I coined the term Adeptus Restartes and Secondus Marines due to my feelings on the court changes. I'd have preferred if Cawl just kept a secret stash of "pure" 30k marines and extra geneseed slowly grown in clones for 10k years and instead just made new tech for them to use.
The only potential part of their fluff that interested me was the part about upgrading standard marines.
They need to just cut the umbilical chord. They now; obviously, make most of their money from new models, which is just how their business model is looking now. They hardly update models in comparison to new units.
I'm calling it right now. They will never release another classic marine kit. The marine line will slowly be replaced by primaris models until there are no classic units left in the SM codex. Then the codex will simply be called 'Codex: Adeptus Astartes" again and GW will act like primaris were never a thing.
The only reason they are doing a gradual phase-out instead of just releaseing the primaris models as "new" SM models is so that the SM army isn't crippled by lack of units early on, and to avoid the massive fan backlash from people having their classic SM armies completely invalidated overnight.
They haven’t mentioned it again... yet. They’re ultimately still releasing Codexes to catch every faction up to where the story is at start of 8th. No reason they can’t decide to Primaris-ise heroes in Campaign books down the line, or in V2 Codexes.
w1zard wrote: I'm calling it right now. They will never release another classic marine kit. The marine line will slowly be replaced by primaris models until there are no classic units left in the SM codex. Then the codex will simply be called 'Codex: Adeptus Astartes" again and GW will act like primaris were never a thing.
The only reason they are doing a gradual phase-out instead of just releaseing the primaris models as "new" SM models is so that the SM army isn't crippled by lack of units early on, and to avoid the massive fan backlash from people having their classic SM armies completely invalidated overnight.
Except, of course, for the once Japanese exclusive Space Marine Heroes, that are now coming to the rest of the world, too. That are 'classic' Marines.....
w1zard wrote: I'm calling it right now. They will never release another classic marine kit. The marine line will slowly be replaced by primaris models until there are no classic units left in the SM codex. Then the codex will simply be called 'Codex: Adeptus Astartes" again and GW will act like primaris were never a thing.
The only reason they are doing a gradual phase-out instead of just releaseing the primaris models as "new" SM models is so that the SM army isn't crippled by lack of units early on, and to avoid the massive fan backlash from people having their classic SM armies completely invalidated overnight.
Nah I think they still want to sell the old models, they want the best of both worlds, Primaris are already and army, they can use all the same vehicles, though they might be replaceing all the old vehicles, which I really hope they don't, I love the humble predator/land raider etc.
w1zard wrote: I'm calling it right now. They will never release another classic marine kit. The marine line will slowly be replaced by primaris models until there are no classic units left in the SM codex. Then the codex will simply be called 'Codex: Adeptus Astartes" again and GW will act like primaris were never a thing.
The only reason they are doing a gradual phase-out instead of just releaseing the primaris models as "new" SM models is so that the SM army isn't crippled by lack of units early on, and to avoid the massive fan backlash from people having their classic SM armies completely invalidated overnight.
Except, of course, for the once Japanese exclusive Space Marine Heroes, that are now coming to the rest of the world, too. That are 'classic' Marines.....
Those look like they cost a penny to make lol They are just looking to market to Japan.
I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
Awww you think they care in the slightest? GW will take everything you have and complain people don't love it.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
Awww you think they care in the slightest? GW will take everything you have and complain people don't love it.
Did I say that... No I didn't. Plus what is this supposed to mean: "take everything you have and complain people don't love it"
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
except the writing ISN'T on the wall. As I said the basic SM kits are too new, given the cost that goes into production of plastic kits, it would hardly be greedy to produce a bunch when you're talking about phasing them out. Between that and the pains GW took to ensure Primaris where not a "Straight up upgrade" I'm not too worried about the future of old school marines. GW'lll continue to squeeze the profits out of them as much as they can, will the focus shift to Primaris Marines? yes, don't expect to see any story packs containing old marines, stuff like tooth and talon will be all about the Primaris from here on out. but classic Marines aren't going anywhere, or at least won't until GW feels they're no longer making them money. So long as we keep buying em GW'll keep making em
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
except the writing ISN'T on the wall. As I said the basic SM kits are too new, given the cost that goes into production of plastic kits, it would hardly be greedy to produce a bunch when you're talking about phasing them out. Between that and the pains GW took to ensure Primaris where not a "Straight up upgrade" I'm not too worried about the future of old school marines. GW'lll continue to squeeze the profits out of them as much as they can, will the focus shift to Primaris Marines? yes, don't expect to see any story packs containing old marines, stuff like tooth and talon will be all about the Primaris from here on out. but classic Marines aren't going anywhere, or at least won't until GW feels they're no longer making them money. So long as we keep buying em GW'll keep making em
The writing is on the wall, they will be phasing out normal marines in the future, to think otherwise is just naive. I didn't give a time for when they'd phase them out so I don't know what you are arguing about, you are just arguing when you actually agree with me. Its greedy not informing the customers of their business plan. Classic marines aren't going anywhere bit they 'will' go in the future. I have already gone full Primaris, I convert models I need to and use primaris models for normal marine stat etc. Lots of people are doing that, whats the point of buying classic marines and painstakingly painting them just to throw them away or sell them in the future. We talked gak to one another in another thread, don't take it personally, I don't.
This question will matter more once all the Codexes have been released. Tooth and Claw sounds like a multi-box release that will include new models for various forces, and that's when they might start pushing bigger changes into the line.
The thing about Primaris Marines, they look a little too 'advanced' to be compatible with the existing range. I'm not convinced everyone would be into the aesthetic and want to give up their own models. It makes me think we really can't guess at what GW is going to do, if they will keep Primaris separate and still have regular Marines or if they will try to replace.
techsoldaten wrote: This question will matter more once all the Codexes have been released. Tooth and Claw sounds like a multi-box release that will include new models for various forces, and that's when they might start pushing bigger changes into the line.
The thing about Primaris Marines, they look a little too 'advanced' to be compatible with the existing range. I'm not convinced everyone would be into the aesthetic and want to give up their own models. It makes me think we really can't guess at what GW is going to do, if they will keep Primaris separate and still have regular Marines or if they will try to replace.
A hell of a lot of people, including myself, think classic marines look terrible in comparison to Primaris now, never realised how bad the proportions were on them, plus they are really short now as well. Primaris actually look like SM's. So I wouldn't bet on people not giving up there models at some point.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
except the writing ISN'T on the wall. As I said the basic SM kits are too new, given the cost that goes into production of plastic kits, it would hardly be greedy to produce a bunch when you're talking about phasing them out. Between that and the pains GW took to ensure Primaris where not a "Straight up upgrade" I'm not too worried about the future of old school marines. GW'lll continue to squeeze the profits out of them as much as they can, will the focus shift to Primaris Marines? yes, don't expect to see any story packs containing old marines, stuff like tooth and talon will be all about the Primaris from here on out. but classic Marines aren't going anywhere, or at least won't until GW feels they're no longer making them money. So long as we keep buying em GW'll keep making em
The writing is on the wall, they will be phasing out normal marines in the future, to think otherwise is just naive. I didn't give a time for when they'd phase them out so I don't know what you are arguing about, you are just arguing when you actually agree with me. Its greedy not informing the customers of their business plan. Classic marines aren't going anywhere bit they 'will' go in the future. I have already gone full Primaris, I convert models I need to and use primaris models for normal marine stat etc. Lots of people are doing that, whats the point of buying classic marines and painstakingly painting them just to throw them away or sell them in the future. We talked gak to one another in another thread, don't take it personally, I don't.
That's like saying eventually the weather will change. I mean, yeah... eventually gak is gonna get replaced. Remember what Dark Eldar used to look like?
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
except the writing ISN'T on the wall. As I said the basic SM kits are too new, given the cost that goes into production of plastic kits, it would hardly be greedy to produce a bunch when you're talking about phasing them out. Between that and the pains GW took to ensure Primaris where not a "Straight up upgrade" I'm not too worried about the future of old school marines. GW'lll continue to squeeze the profits out of them as much as they can, will the focus shift to Primaris Marines? yes, don't expect to see any story packs containing old marines, stuff like tooth and talon will be all about the Primaris from here on out. but classic Marines aren't going anywhere, or at least won't until GW feels they're no longer making them money. So long as we keep buying em GW'll keep making em
The writing is on the wall, they will be phasing out normal marines in the future, to think otherwise is just naive. I didn't give a time for when they'd phase them out so I don't know what you are arguing about, you are just arguing when you actually agree with me. Its greedy not informing the customers of their business plan. Classic marines aren't going anywhere bit they 'will' go in the future. I have already gone full Primaris, I convert models I need to and use primaris models for normal marine stat etc. Lots of people are doing that, whats the point of buying classic marines and painstakingly painting them just to throw them away or sell them in the future. We talked gak to one another in another thread, don't take it personally, I don't.
That's like saying eventually the weather will change. I mean, yeah... eventually gak is gonna get replaced. Remember what Dark Eldar used to look like?
There is still a lot of denial, a lot of people are not ready to say good bye to their armies, there is a lot of time and money invested in them. Its happened throughout the editions but SM's have never really changed that much, a good few 2nd/3rd edition models look just as good recent ones so they've had a long time of the usual stuff so people have large SM armies. Make a thread about it, you'll see the denial.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
except the writing ISN'T on the wall. As I said the basic SM kits are too new, given the cost that goes into production of plastic kits, it would hardly be greedy to produce a bunch when you're talking about phasing them out. Between that and the pains GW took to ensure Primaris where not a "Straight up upgrade" I'm not too worried about the future of old school marines. GW'lll continue to squeeze the profits out of them as much as they can, will the focus shift to Primaris Marines? yes, don't expect to see any story packs containing old marines, stuff like tooth and talon will be all about the Primaris from here on out. but classic Marines aren't going anywhere, or at least won't until GW feels they're no longer making them money. So long as we keep buying em GW'll keep making em
The writing is on the wall, they will be phasing out normal marines in the future, to think otherwise is just naive. I didn't give a time for when they'd phase them out so I don't know what you are arguing about, you are just arguing when you actually agree with me. Its greedy not informing the customers of their business plan. Classic marines aren't going anywhere bit they 'will' go in the future. I have already gone full Primaris, I convert models I need to and use primaris models for normal marine stat etc. Lots of people are doing that, whats the point of buying classic marines and painstakingly painting them just to throw them away or sell them in the future. We talked gak to one another in another thread, don't take it personally, I don't.
That's like saying eventually the weather will change. I mean, yeah... eventually gak is gonna get replaced. Remember what Dark Eldar used to look like?
There is still a lot of denial, a lot of people are not ready to say good bye to their armies, there is a lot of time and money invested in them. Its happened throughout the editions but SM's have never really changed that much, a good few 2nd/3rd edition models look just as good recent ones so they've had a long time of the usual stuff so people have large SM armies. Make a thread about it, you'll see the denial.
There's no denial, people just don't think Primaris are going to replace standard Marines anytime soon. Because GW can make plenty of money selling both. Yet again the basic tac squad box is only about Five years old. there's plenty of life in that, Gw's not going to phase it out for a brand new type of marine if they don't have to the smart thing, to do is just sell both. That's not naked greed so much as it is basic fething busniess sense.
you make it sounds like old school marines are desined to be gone by 9th edition. I doubt that very much, it'll proably be a decade or more before they're gone.
I have no doubt they'll be replaced, eventually. But regular marines will be around until they stop making money. There's anecdotal, and I stress anecdotal, evidence to suggest Primaris haven't set the world alight sales wise. There's also the effect that invalidating much-loved armies and lore had on how AoS launched.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
That is not what I meant, I meant that GW isn't going to be designing any old scale space marine kits from here on. Any "new" releases from here onwards are going to be primaris only. They will still produce and sell old scale marines until primaris marines can stand on their own as an army and then they will slowly start turning down production until they finally stop.
GW is phasing out oldscale marines. It's going to happen slowly but it is happening.
Eventually there were be a SM codex release that is purely going to be primaris stuff, except that they wont call them "primaris space marines" anymore, they will just call them "space marines". Thinking that there is going to be a divide between primaris and regular marines indefinitely is extremely naive.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
except the writing ISN'T on the wall. As I said the basic SM kits are too new, given the cost that goes into production of plastic kits, it would hardly be greedy to produce a bunch when you're talking about phasing them out. Between that and the pains GW took to ensure Primaris where not a "Straight up upgrade" I'm not too worried about the future of old school marines. GW'lll continue to squeeze the profits out of them as much as they can, will the focus shift to Primaris Marines? yes, don't expect to see any story packs containing old marines, stuff like tooth and talon will be all about the Primaris from here on out. but classic Marines aren't going anywhere, or at least won't until GW feels they're no longer making them money. So long as we keep buying em GW'll keep making em
The writing is on the wall, they will be phasing out normal marines in the future, to think otherwise is just naive. I didn't give a time for when they'd phase them out so I don't know what you are arguing about, you are just arguing when you actually agree with me. Its greedy not informing the customers of their business plan. Classic marines aren't going anywhere bit they 'will' go in the future. I have already gone full Primaris, I convert models I need to and use primaris models for normal marine stat etc. Lots of people are doing that, whats the point of buying classic marines and painstakingly painting them just to throw them away or sell them in the future. We talked gak to one another in another thread, don't take it personally, I don't.
That's like saying eventually the weather will change. I mean, yeah... eventually gak is gonna get replaced. Remember what Dark Eldar used to look like?
There is still a lot of denial, a lot of people are not ready to say good bye to their armies, there is a lot of time and money invested in them. Its happened throughout the editions but SM's have never really changed that much, a good few 2nd/3rd edition models look just as good recent ones so they've had a long time of the usual stuff so people have large SM armies. Make a thread about it, you'll see the denial.
There's no denial, people just don't think Primaris are going to replace standard Marines anytime soon. Because GW can make plenty of money selling both. Yet again the basic tac squad box is only about Five years old. there's plenty of life in that, Gw's not going to phase it out for a brand new type of marine if they don't have to the smart thing, to do is just sell both. That's not naked greed so much as it is basic fething busniess sense.
you make it sounds like old school marines are desined to be gone by 9th edition. I doubt that very much, it'll proably be a decade or more before they're gone.
People that think classic SM's are going to stick around for as long as Primaris are either in denial or are naive, I think everyone should know that they will end up replacing them. .
I don't make it sound like that at all I said in the future, where have I suggest or even implied a given time frame... If they were gone in 9th I wouldn't be wanting GW to cut the umbilical chord. Yeha its good business sense, doesn't make it right and if its not right in my opinion its greed. Its duping people into choosing a product that won't last but they are marketing the product like its going to last, even know they know its not. Why are you getting angry?
One thing I see hindering GWs plan of eventually switching primaris into truescale marine is Horus Heresy - as they still plan to release more books and models for that, and marines in 30k are oldscale, and if HH era continues to remain profitable they'll no doubt continue it with The Scouring era. I mean, they've even made 30k citadel miniatures.
GW could a horror scenario in their heads - one in which little Timmy and his mom go to a store to check out this "Warhammers" thing, and then get confused by the size difference 30k and 40k marines and the storeclerk trying to explain that 40k marines were once this seperate thing called "Primaris Marines", and just get turned off and buy a video game.
Yeah but they are redoing all the CSM models, they are refurbishing their catalogue, its what business' have to do, keeping up with the times, so its pretty obvious that in the future they'll so away with classic marines. Its a model company and the models now have to look as good as the technology allows and classic marines don't really cut it, especially since they are trying to market to new players. I've been playing since 2nd edition so I've always thought marines looked awesome but when I saw them compared to Primaris I was actually shocked at how bad they looked, proportion and scale wise, they sculpts are create though not gaking on the talent of the sculptors as they have a certain template they have to work with. So for new players, they probably don't think SM's look that good but for us older players we never saw it. Though SM's are still the most popular so I don't know how much that has to do with new or old players. I'm not really bothered though as I'm not just Primarising all my models because I'm sure the change will happen, I'm doing it because they just look how SM's should. Plus using current bits/FW stuff you can convert anything, devestators, etc I've even done Primaris TWC, they don't look that bad, I love converting so I'm like a pig and gak since the Primaris were released.
The Ragnar model is pretty gak, I'll be re-doing that one.
the ancient wrote: It was said by some nobody on the design team and no one else at warhammerfest or some such.
And never mentioned again... Ever.
That 'nobody' was Pete Foley, the lead designer of 8th edition...
I think he said it too soon, and that's why they're keeping quiet about it now. The upgrade process is for keeping some of the old characters around when the time comes to phase out the old marines.
the ancient wrote: It was said by some nobody on the design team and no one else at warhammerfest or some such.
And never mentioned again... Ever.
That 'nobody' was Pete Foley, the lead designer of 8th edition...
I think he said it too soon, and that's why they're keeping quiet about it now. The upgrade process is for keeping some of the old characters around when the time comes to phase out the old marines.
100% agree with this. They wrote in a ‘back door’ so they can upgrade peeps they want to keep or enhance.
I remember it being mentioned on a twitch stream with Andy Smillie. He said he was going to go over it in future Flesh Tearer books, so be on the look out for those.
The models are decent but as a Marine Player GW will never get a single cent from me for a primaris models. I have many players in my area that feel the same. As for discontinuing the model line they can't do that without ending the Horus Herasy 30k line. Maybe they do that in 5 to 10 years but the minute they do that, they are alienating a lot of players.
greyknight12 wrote: I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.
And that's exactly what I think GW would have done if they intended to replace regular SM with Primaris. The Primaris statline would just have been the standard for 8th edition SM and the new models would have just been the Mk10 armour variant. Having introduced them as reinforcements now there's no way to replace regular SM without either rendering existing SM players' armies redundant or introducing even more Primaris units to provide existing SM players with the rather unsatisfactory option of running what was a WYSIWYG army as a counts-as. I just can't see them alienating a large section of their player base like that.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: One thing I see hindering GWs plan of eventually switching primaris into truescale marine is Horus Heresy - as they still plan to release more books and models for that, and marines in 30k are oldscale, and if HH era continues to remain profitable they'll no doubt continue it with The Scouring era. I mean, they've even made 30k citadel miniatures.
GW could a horror scenario in their heads - one in which little Timmy and his mom go to a store to check out this "Warhammers" thing, and then get confused by the size difference 30k and 40k marines and the storeclerk trying to explain that 40k marines were once this seperate thing called "Primaris Marines", and just get turned off and buy a video game.
I could see that as a possible middle ground with (post) 30k HH using the older models and primaris being supported exclusively in wh41k. They'd have to come out with a Gw (not FW) mass battle ruleset first though. The only marine armor that couldn't be used in that scenario would be mk8.
the ancient wrote: It was said by some nobody on the design team and no one else at warhammerfest or some such.
And never mentioned again... Ever.
That 'nobody' was Pete Foley, the lead designer of 8th edition...
I think he said it too soon, and that's why they're keeping quiet about it now. The upgrade process is for keeping some of the old characters around when the time comes to phase out the old marines.
Do you have a link to the quote? It would be a helpful reference.
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greyknight12 wrote: I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.
Same here and stated as much earlier. I'd have been completely fine with primaris being a tech (armor, weapons, vehicles) only upgrade in the fluff.
Maybe Dante is too old to be "Primarised" and wouldn't survive the procedure. So he ends up in a Dreadnought giving the Blood Angels some much needed new leadership.
Brother Castor wrote: I just can't see them alienating a large section of their player base like that.
You need to consider the time scale. All new releases will be Primaris and GW will be pushing them. Most new player will get those. Then the minimarines will be moved to mail order only. When the time finally comes to pull the plug, most marine armies will be Primaris. You don't see many Rogue Trader beakies or even 2nd edition monopose plastics or metals around these days. Perhaps some legacy rules will be provided in some sort of index, or perhaps they just say people can use their old marines as counts-as Primaris.
You need to consider the time scale. All new releases will be Primaris and GW will be pushing them. Most new player will get those. Then the minimarines will be moved to mail order only. When the time finally comes to pull the plug, most marine armies will be Primaris. You don't see many Rogue Trader beakies or even 2nd edition monopose plastics or metals around these days. Perhaps some legacy rules will be provided in some sort of index, or perhaps they just say people can use their old marines as counts-as Primaris.
Yup... I said something similar when they were initially announced. So far, it's going according to plan with no new "old" marine kits being released except for what was already in the pipeline and/or limited stuff (Space Marine Heroes). Primaris are typically the poster children of books with new art (like the 40kRPG, the new kids line, etc) as opposed to the codex books that typically have been recycling art from 6th-7th edition. We'll see in another year if they stop requiring stores to stock old marine products once more primaris stuff comes out (like affordable transport and bike equivalents).
Amongst other things, yes. I don't expect to see Secondus Marine kits released in the future or if they are it'll be at a drip rate until whatever was left in the pipeline is shoved out the end and the rare special limited edition. I expect we'll see a steady switch in focus away from normal marines to Adeptus Restartes, at first partial (again.. pipeline) and then a clear majority, in the fluff whether that be tales of glory in White Dwarf or BL novels/stories/audiobooks as well as promotional art. Eventually (maybe in a year or two) stores will no longer be required to stock much in the way of old marine plastics and then a few years after that won't be able to as they switch to direct only. My point was that we already have a 40k template for this type of bastard stepchild product line and more in the AOS line as well to look to as a guide for what to expect in the years to come.
ProtoClone wrote: I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.
Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.
I think there is a lot of room for this conflict in the lore right now too. Some Space Marine Chapters must look down on Primaris Marines, I think there would be no shortage of Marines questioning their validity in the face of the Ultima Founding. If you're a Space Marine from a depleted chapter which was folded into another chapter and suddenly some new jack is sporting your old colours, there is going to be some resentment. Possible Traitor Legion descendants might be hunted down by rivals of their forefathers simply for being the wrong geneseed stock. And of course, Primaris Marines can and will fall to Chaos eventually, so there is that.
ProtoClone wrote: I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.
Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.
I think there is a lot of room for this conflict in the lore right now too. Some Space Marine Chapters must look down on Primaris Marines, I think there would be no shortage of Marines questioning their validity in the face of the Ultima Founding. If you're a Space Marine from a depleted chapter which was folded into another chapter and suddenly some new jack is sporting your old colours, there is going to be some resentment. Possible Traitor Legion descendants might be hunted down by rivals of their forefathers simply for being the wrong geneseed stock. And of course, Primaris Marines can and will fall to Chaos eventually, so there is that.
Space Marines are never folded into each other, that's guard regiments not marine chapters.
I thought there was precedent of depleted Chapters being merged into one when one or both chapters geneseed stocks were badly depleted, given that this wouldn't take them above codex limits and that's part of the reason why the Astral Claws got so dicked over during the Badab Schism. The ACs merged in a successor Chapter, Tiger something's? It wasn't a violation for Huron to have done that, but since it took his chapter above codex limits and he made his own standing army afterwards it became a problem.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm not saying it's as common as in the Imperial Guard, where it's almost after every campaign, but it does happen. If not specifically referred to outside of the Badab War we can still assume that it happens because simple military logistics can give us plenty of justification for such a thing. A better question would be why wouldn't depleted Chapters merge together to continue operating? There could be any number of reasons why some chapters might choose to go extinct, but from a 'your dudes' standpoint I'd say there is ample room for you to go that route if you wanted.
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.
ProtoClone wrote: I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.
Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.
I think there is a lot of room for this conflict in the lore right now too. Some Space Marine Chapters must look down on Primaris Marines, I think there would be no shortage of Marines questioning their validity in the face of the Ultima Founding. If you're a Space Marine from a depleted chapter which was folded into another chapter and suddenly some new jack is sporting your old colours, there is going to be some resentment. Possible Traitor Legion descendants might be hunted down by rivals of their forefathers simply for being the wrong geneseed stock. And of course, Primaris Marines can and will fall to Chaos eventually, so there is that.
I could see chapters who have been struggling to fill ranks have a sense of deceit for the empire withholding what could have been essential tech from them. Others see this as a misstep and a repeating of history that lead to the HH.
For ages there will be a sense of us/them mentality that boils over and brings the empire to civil war. During this time other factions will see this as a chance to gain foothold in important sectors, or to just sew mayhem.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.
His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.
His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?
There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.
His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?
There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.
Hell ARE the dark angels the "second biggest source of geneseed"? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the first lords didn't partiuclarly like using dark angels geneseed because of how secretive they where etc. I'd have figured the Imperial fists where .
I subscribe to an even wilder conspiracy theory: I think Games Workshop might actually be entirely straightfaced with primaris marine lore, and I think "we're being replaced! GW is coming for our marines!" is largely a result of the most spoiled playerbase in the game's history having to deal with a similar level of focus and attention of all other factions in the game for ~1 year.
We are in the age of big shiny heroes in the 41st millennium. Warhammer Adventures is being produced. Battle of Vedros is in toy stores. Games Workshop has identified the biggest untapped market for their highly niche, expensive product and the most important market to capture for sustainable growth is little brothers and sons of existing 40k collectors/gamers.
Primaris Marines solve many of the longstanding problems marines pose to young gamers while amplifying the aspects of space marines that heavily appeal to young boys. They are impossible to "build wrong" with their fixed loadouts (I should know, I was crestfallen when my first game at 11 years old was a disaster because I had my Long Fangs armed with a lascannon, a heavy bolter, a missile launcher, a multi-melta.... and then they all got flattened by a single shot from a leman russ) and thanks to the mix of weaponry on every unit, it's similarly difficult to build an army that can't handle any particular type of threat. And looks wise, oh man are these guys designed to be every kind of awesome for kids that age! If I was 11 and starting 40k again I would take one look at Reivers and that would be that, I want an army with as many of those as humanly possible!
Their "like marines, but better" lore makes much more sense when you consider that odds are extremely good that prospective 10-13 year old gamers with a relative who also plays 40k are most likely to have that relative already playing Space Marines. It gives them a way to be just like dad/brother, but at the same time even though they're massively simplified from a game standpoint they get to feel like they're playing "the best of the best".
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is a vast conspiracy by GW to phase out space marines. It's tough to tell, because I'd say "hey, lets wait and see if they replace *outdated Kit* with primaris" but honestly none of the marine factions have a kit that's anywhere near outdated. If you made a list of the top ten classic factions with up-to-date fancy ranges, Space Marines would probably be 7 of those entries. The upcoming ork release is replacing a 21 year old model. Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.
His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?
There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.
Hell ARE the dark angels the "second biggest source of geneseed"? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the first lords didn't partiuclarly like using dark angels geneseed because of how secretive they where etc. I'd have figured the Imperial fists where .
I think DA are. They're just shady whereas Fists, Ravens, Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Iron Hands all have something wrong with their geneseed or a weird thing with bionics. Not many good choices.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....
Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.
Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.
not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.
His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?
There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.
Hell ARE the dark angels the "second biggest source of geneseed"? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the first lords didn't partiuclarly like using dark angels geneseed because of how secretive they where etc. I'd have figured the Imperial fists where .
I think DA are. They're just shady whereas Fists, Ravens, Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Iron Hands all have something wrong with their geneseed or a weird thing with bionics. Not many good choices.
Cawl: "Chapter master Hierro Kasi of the Iron Hands, I am here to collect my tithe of DNA for the primaris marines."
HK: "Oh sure, as long as you're ok with...the bionics."
Cawl: "You silly man, replacing your arms with metal does nothing to your DNA. Besides, we in the adeptus mechanicus have no problem with that, in fact we see it as somewhat character-building as a pastime."
I'd be surprised if we don't see Mk V, VI and VII kits for Horus Heresy once they start getting into Seige of Terra boardgames, to be honest. I don't see the "standard" marine going away for a long time, especially since that's the basis of Chaos Marines
Banville wrote:His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?
You say second largest, but they're still nowhere NEAR close to being 3/5ths of all Space Marine Chapters like Ultramarine stock are.
He may have the second largest, but it's probably under even 1/5th of all Chapters. Unless Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Salamanders, and White Scars only count for 1/5 of all Chapters between them (which I doubt).
the_scotsman wrote: Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?
The bike. And a lot of the special characters, but they're not "kits", I suppose.
Wow, 1999! That is pretty elderly. That kit has aged super freakin' well, considering its analogues are stuff like the old dark eldar sculpts....which...euuuugh.
Scouts too I guess. So, I guess that's the kit to look out for! Will we see new Space Marine Bikers/scouts in 3-5 years.
Looking down the list at what's "ahead of them in line" so to speak, we've got:
-A huge fraction of the Craftworld Eldar range (Guardians, half the current aspect warrior sculpts, all the pheonix lords, avatar, all the big tanks, vyper, war walker)
-Chaos marines (all the vehicles and basic infantry barring the jump guys)
-Tyranids (basic infantry, stealers, really showing their age and mono-poseness)
-Guard (basic infantry)
those I think of as the biggest offenders, where their basic, iconic troop kit just looks like absolute assgarbage.
The Space Marine bike kit is in the 1997 catalogue - it came out for 2nd edition (look at the backpack and the lack of panel lines, vents and sockets on the armour), while the original Dark Eldar came out for 3rd. Of the models you've listed, they're all newer kits than the Space Marine bike. Other than the Ork buggy, the only other army with non-character models dating back to 2nd edition are Sisters of Battle.
Yeah, it came out iirc during second edition so the mid 90's (1993-1998). Other character models for space marines (Dante, Ragnar, Azrael, Abaddon, etc) still exist from that time without being replaced/updated.
For me, it's clear that GW is doing the same thing to 40K that they did to the Old World. But, instead of blowing it all up, and making you start over, they are slowly bleeding it out over time.
What happened to Warhammer Fantasy? They killed the "big kit" idea, where you paid $35 US to get 16 guys, and now pay $58 US for 5 guys. Less plastic. Higher cost. More profit.
The same exact thing is happening in 40K. Don't believe me? Old Tactical squad costs $40 US, and you have 10 marines on 3 sprues. Primaris whatevers cost $60 US, and have 10 guys on 2 sprues. Less plastic. Higher costs. More profit.
It doesn't matter if the background sucks. It doesn't matter if you have been a fan since 1985, like me. They are all about profit. That's the plan. Force everyone to buy whole new armies of overpriced box sets.
If you are fine with this, then there is no problem. If you are upset that they have now destroyed two of your favorite game universes in a ham fisted way, all for profit, then you are in the same boat as me.
I have spent thousands of dollars over the last few decades, but that doesn't matter. I have at least 1,000 points of every army that they have released. I have multiple Space Marine Companies. Yes, multiple. I have 5 Knights. I bought all of the books, video games, novels, and even that terrible movie. But, that means nothing now. They got what they wanted from me, and now they are looking for fresh meat.
I think that is terribly foolish. I used to introduce half a dozen people to the hobby every month. Every month. They each spent hundreds of dollars. Now? I have turned my back on GW. I'm done playing their game.
I'm not alone. Almost everyone I know feels the same way. We are going to stick with 7th, and Heralds of Ruin for Kill Team. They work just fine, if not better, and I don't have to throw away 30+ years of the hobby.
But, you all have fun. I hope that hey bring you as much joy as I have experienced over the years.
I don't have as much heartache over the size of the primaris as much as that I hate how they look. the size of models overall bothers me due to the table still being 6x4 and them seemingly encouraging smaller tables. So for me the primaris are fail/fail. I dont like the size and I hate the look. dont much care for the bigger bases on my current mk3 and mk4's either, but thats a whole other complaint.
thekingofkings wrote: I don't have as much heartache over the size of the primaris as much as that I hate how they look. the size of models overall bothers me due to the table still being 6x4 and them seemingly encouraging smaller tables. So for me the primaris are fail/fail. I dont like the size and I hate the look. dont much care for the bigger bases on my current mk3 and mk4's either, but thats a whole other complaint.
the bigger bases are kinda nice hoenstly, I don't think I could go back to the smaller ones. the small ones just looked so.. crowded
I think my main issue with the decriers is more or less it becomes binary.
My take: Standard space marines are done, and you won't see another kit, outside of "maybe" new characters if it fits the story line for them to stay non-Primaris. If GW goes all Primaris (as they will) they'll either have to kill of characters (impossible for some), adapt them to Primaris or simply resculpt them in classic power armour, and they'll be the old hold-outs. A tiny chance of a "new" version of Space Marine armour just to suit the characters, in order to justify new sculpts. What does this mean for classic marines? Nothing for a good 5-10 years. The rules will remain for...a loooong time, and the kits will continue on until they become so outdated and sell so poorly that GW can slowly kill them off. Primaris will get more kit releases and eventually old marines will simply fade.
However, it seems that half of the people who read that paragraph then say: "OMG they're not going to kill off classic marines!" as if GW is just going to pull the plug in the next 18 months and say "tough gak marine players!".
GW can, and will replace basic marine kits with Primaris kits in the future...it's going to happen. However that doesn't equate to just dumping marine players on their asses and burning the bridge they've built...they're not 'that' stupid. So how will this happen in my opinion?
1) Primaris units will continue to be released.
2) There will be enough power creep to eventually put Primaris ahead of classic marines.
3) New players in their teens will now grow up with Primaris and will see older kits as outdated, small, ugly, etc.
4) It's possible we'll see a slow build in the rules/codices which will also edge Primaris over normal marines.
5) In 10 years time you'll have a bunch of old, fading marine kits with mediocre stats, being outshone by new and shiny Primaris options...slowly GW will justify the killing off of plastic kits. Again we're talking long term.
I think characters will stay around, and I do think you might see a new "fancy" version of these classic characters. A 'normal' sized new version of power armour which fits the Primaris aesthetic and lets GW put the characters out alongside their new bigger brethren. It'll have some cool name of course
that's possiable Elbows, but yeah, it's something that's going to happen over a decade if not more. not worth getting into a tizzy over. being honest, most of us will likely not be playing by time old Marines go kaput.
I think primarisized versions of the 20+ year old metal special characters are a good idea in theory but they lose me personally with the $25+ cost for single small sprue monopose figs. If they had actually passed on some of the savings they got with the move to plastics onto the consumer then I'd have bought a whole bunch of primaris characters myself. Instead, I'm picking up starter set models for $3.50 each and converting them with bits.
I'm thinking Kirby was planning to replace the current marine line with Primaris (as a simplification to the line along the lines of "less options are cheaper to write rules for and make minis for" - sort of the same budget slashing that led to 1-man stores), but when Roundtree was put in charge, he was gunshy to follow through (after glancing through the sales sheets for the SM line). Most likely development was too far along stopping Primaris from coming to market, but we seem to be in a holding pattern on how things will proceed.
The JP Space Marine figures does seem to indicate the old line isn't going away yet.
Stormonu wrote: I'm thinking Kirby was planning to replace the current marine line with Primaris (as a simplification to the line along the lines of "less options are cheaper to write rules for and make minis for" - sort of the same budget slashing that led to 1-man stores), but when Roundtree was put in charge, he was gunshy to follow through (after glancing through the sales sheets for the SM line). Most likely development was too far along stopping Primaris from coming to market, but we seem to be in a holding pattern on how things will proceed.
The JP Space Marine figures does seem to indicate the old line isn't going away yet.
Could be, replacing marines with primaris sounds like the King of "No Market research Kirby" would do.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
Remember they have entire game for which those MKIII and MKIV kits are 100% essential and not replacable by primaris models. Apart from different look primaris models are TOO BIG to be used for HH models period.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
greyknight12 wrote: I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.
Too bad then that primaris models are too tall for space marines. Primaris are about the size of custodians who are head taller than space marines.
BrianDavion wrote: I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.
They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.
Remember they have entire game for which those MKIII and MKIV kits are 100% essential and not replacable by primaris models. Apart from different look primaris models are TOO BIG to be used for HH models period.
.
agreed. standard marines are safe until at the very LEAST FW ends the HH.
I wonder would GW consider bridging the gap between the Heresy and 41k, that might allow space for people to still play their old marines and give Primaris a proper focus.
Call it Warhammer : Age of Strife, or something. Release a series of supplements along with their own dexes and fluff accompaniment delving into some of the many incursions, wars and rebellions that took place between 30k and 40k. Take the Forgeworld Books, for example, like Siege of Vraks etc. Get someone to sit down and redo the army lists and change the fluff (where necessary) and then release them under the main GW banner. Here's a whole series of books for fully compatible with the 40k rules in which you can use your old models. And they can make it absolutely clear that thus isn't an expansion or supplement, it's part of the main game that allows a player to field historical or specialised forces, forces that still exist in the 41st millennium.
All the old marines and Xenos and chaos have a stomping ground where they can operate in the old fluff. The new Primaris can then carry the torch into the future, lighting the way for returning Primarchs and other such jiggery pokery.
The lack of new SM kits recently does point to a plan to gradually phase them out. However, there are also anecdotal reports that Primaris really aren't selling too well at all. It may be that the original plan will need to be revised. It would also be a huge risk for GW to phase out regular Marines. Those sprues have paid for themselves several times over now so any sales they make are pure profit (after taking the various standard costs into account) - there's no element of those sales still going to paying off the start-up costs of tooling the sprues and designing the models.
If it does happen I think it's going to be quite a while before we see any sort of meaningful effects of the decision. The lack of new models is hardly a major problem given how extensive the range for regular Marines already is.
Graphite wrote: Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...
A big bulky heavier version of the primaris armor that is a steady firing platform for more weapons? Something like a terminator that has an assault bolt weapon paired with a power fist? And maybe some of them could be upgraded with top mounted missile launchers like the cyclone? Something that was available as a unit but also as an upgrade for some independent characters? Yeah, if only there was a primaris equivalent...
Graphite wrote: Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...
A big bulky heavier version of the primaris armor that is a steady firing platform for more weapons? Something like a terminator that has an assault bolt weapon paired with a power fist? And maybe some of them could be upgraded with top mounted missile launchers like the cyclone? Something that was available as a unit but also as an upgrade for some independent characters? Yeah, if only there was a primaris equivalent...
Spoiler:
Fills a TOTALLY differant role. Terminators fill a heavy armored shock troop role. Agressors do not. they instead are more of a heavy armored fire support role. Agrressors aren't primaris Terminators. they're Primaris centurions.
I'm actually kind of relieved that this will no doubt come to further prominence. It's got to be the only way to keep beloved special characters up to date, model-wise.
I would expect if the primaris project continues that in the near future an all Primaris chapter specific codex will be released.
Then following on from all recent snowflake chapters getting access to codex exclusive equipment next edition there will be one codex for all original marines.
Then a further Primaris codex with multiple chapters included.
SeanDrake wrote: I would expect if the primaris project continues that in the near future an all Primaris chapter specific codex will be released.
Then following on from all recent snowflake chapters getting access to codex exclusive equipment next edition there will be one codex for all original marines.
Then a further Primaris codex with multiple chapters included.
Edition after that mini marines are no more.
I doubt it, there are a very clearly identifable pattern in what marine codex got what. it was all "niche filling"
Dark Angels have a fighter and a ground support flier.. so they got the stormraven as their "big ass transport" space wolves had a ground attack flier and a "big ass transport" but no fighter, so got the Stormhawk. then they also all got the anti-air tanks. and the "generic heresy era stuff" if black tempalrs had their own codex still I bet they would have gotten the fliers and ground anti-air units but no heresy era stuff
I don't know. Considering that "fresh" Primaris were just thawed out and put into battle without bothering with the scout phase of traditional marine development might indicate that they just learn on the job similar to iirc Horus Heresy era legions.
the_scotsman wrote: Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?
Land raider and rhino are at least close.
Yeah, I was going to say. Land Speeder too. It's basically the same model from the 3rd ed. Box set with a couple extra guns. Plus a bunch of Special Characters are the same sculpt as 2nd Ed days. Mephiston, Azrael, Ezekiel, etc.
I'm not sure when the Boxnaught kit was converted to plastic. Sometime in 3rd, maybe.
Graphite wrote: Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...
A big bulky heavier version of the primaris armor that is a steady firing platform for more weapons? Something like a terminator that has an assault bolt weapon paired with a power fist? And maybe some of them could be upgraded with top mounted missile launchers like the cyclone? Something that was available as a unit but also as an upgrade for some independent characters? Yeah, if only there was a primaris equivalent...
Spoiler:
Fills a TOTALLY differant role. Terminators fill a heavy armored shock troop role. Agressors do not. they instead are more of a heavy armored fire support role. Agrressors aren't primaris Terminators. they're Primaris centurions.
Sort of... fire support units don't usually sport Powerfists as standard equipment. Plus I think their Special rules allow them to ignore penalties when advancing. Imo they're definitely a shock troop type of thing.
I think the whole bit about old marines being upgradable to Primaris was there if reaction to Primaris was overwhelmingly positive. I think that people are assuming that the plan for Primaris and old marines is set in stone but GW's plan is more flexible. It's not like they can change products like Introducing New Coke, then Coke Classic when people react badly, and eventually do away with new and classic lines in favor of a regular Coke line using the old recipe. I'm betting that they released Primaris the way they did so they could replace old marines, but also left room for other options like giving them a separate codex later or even letting them fizzle.
Skaorn wrote: I think the whole bit about old marines being upgradable to Primaris was there if reaction to Primaris was overwhelmingly positive. I think that people are assuming that the plan for Primaris and old marines is set in stone but GW's plan is more flexible. It's not like they can change products like Introducing New Coke, then Coke Classic when people react badly, and eventually do away with new and classic lines in favor of a regular Coke line using the old recipe. I'm betting that they released Primaris the way they did so they could replace old marines, but also left room for other options like giving them a separate codex later or even letting them fizzle.
I think GW knew quite well that the inital reaction to Primaris Marines would be somewhat hostile, the "new GW" seems to have a good finger to the pulse of the mind of the fanbase and the innate conservitism of the 40K fanbase isn't exactly a secret.
but at the same time inital reaction to AOS was hostile too. I think Primaris Marines will be accepted just fine given a few years for us to 1: adapt to them. 2: for GW to expand the lore base etc and thus make them seem less tacked on
Manchu wrote: I wish they'd hurry up and dump the previous scale altogether. It's holding me up from buying any marines.
it's stopping me, I'm expecting GW to maintain primaris as their own thing for a long time hence. by time they get around to replacing them I'll proably be closing on 50.
The real issue I have with the primaris is the visual style. Not the scale. They just look like truescale beefed up mk IV. Very little of that gothic and more menacing style marines used to have. I don't know, they just look kinda generic sci fi. The regular marines and terminators are just too iconic. I honestly wish they would have just did a truescale of mk 7. Maybe they just need more variation of the primaris helmet design, bring back the mouth grills!
Thargrim wrote: The real issue I have with the primaris is the visual style. Not the scale. They just look like truescale beefed up mk IV. Very little of that gothic and more menacing style marines used to have. I don't know, they just look kinda generic sci fi. The regular marines and terminators are just too iconic. I honestly wish they would have just did a truescale of mk 7. Maybe they just need more variation of the primaris helmet design, bring back the mouth grills!
Not eneugh skulls?
that said the MK X armor actually looks a lot like the old Jess Godwin Marine concept art.
Thargrim wrote: The real issue I have with the primaris is the visual style. Not the scale. They just look like truescale beefed up mk IV. Very little of that gothic and more menacing style marines used to have. I don't know, they just look kinda generic sci fi. The regular marines and terminators are just too iconic. I honestly wish they would have just did a truescale of mk 7. Maybe they just need more variation of the primaris helmet design, bring back the mouth grills!
Not eneugh skulls?
that said the MK X armor actually looks a lot like the old Jess Godwin Marine concept art.
The JG artwork is very clearly Mk8 armour and even the ball ankle joints can be seen on the MK8 Deathwatch Veteran models.
Primaris very clearly look like a pandered design. It clearly uses a Mk4 head, which is likely due to the demand both before and after the Calth box set for MK4, as well as MK8, both before and after MK8 was added to the Space Marine like over the last 5 years, in the collar and legs.
Quite clearly, someone in corporate looked at the numbers and told the design team to combined the two when making MK Tacticus armour
What I like about the primaris, and what has inspired me most, is the posing. The scale is obviously better, but the posing is great. A very much modern soldier style and special forces feel to them. They even said in an article in a white dwarf that that was a deliberate move. And it really works for me. Brings the models to life much more than the old, legs spread and braced look of the past.
Aesthetically I like the look of the classic mk4 helmet and the mk8 style armour but that’s very subjective. Can’t to see what comes next.
and really if the ONLY thing you dislike about MK X armor is the helmets, that's not hard to fix at all (unless you like beakies. which yeah you are SOL on :( )
I agree that the Primaris aren't very ornamented compared to the other Space Marines. I assume that's deliberate at present - partly for logistics, so they don't need to make Blood Angels Primaris Intercessors and Dark Angels Primaris Intercessors and ... - and partly because in the background they're still not quite integrated into the existing Chapters.
Give it some time. I expect that after a couple of years we'll start seeing more Primaris units appearing, to take over the roles of existing Space Marines units to make an entirely-Primaris force more viable, and they'll start looking more individualised, just like the more recent Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I agree that the Primaris aren't very ornamented compared to the other Space Marines. I assume that's deliberate at present - partly for logistics, so they don't need to make Blood Angels Primaris Intercessors and Dark Angels Primaris Intercessors and ... - and partly because in the background they're still not quite integrated into the existing Chapters.
Give it some time. I expect that after a couple of years we'll start seeing more Primaris units appearing, to take over the roles of existing Space Marines units to make an entirely-Primaris force more viable, and they'll start looking more individualised, just like the more recent Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar.
Exactly what I think. Also the way marines were going they were so ornamented that it was beginning to look silly and cluttered. U couldn’t do a stripped down simple army. Each new kit got more and more bling on. I agree that it will change as they flesh out the range and named characters start appearing. So far the models for each chapter don’t look as overblown as the old marines.
I've a theory a theory there is a reason space wolves didn't get the upgrade kits DAs and BAs did. and thats because GW plans on doing a more wolfed out version of some of the basic primaris later on down the road. proabnly wishful thinking but given how primaris torsos work now you'd need a dedicated set if you wanted a chest piece with a wolf instead of an eagle etc.
Primaris are like a soft release for GW to update the SM line. Rather than throwing all of the old stuff out and having to start from scratch they can release at the pace they want and slowly over the years replace all of the old models. It makes total sense from both a financial and lore perspective. I think the theory about the lack of upgrade kits for SW's is likely spot on, GW plans to eventually release very Wolfed out Primaris so they won't spend money and time now making a SW Kit that they would only sell for a few years, that doesn't make financial sense.
Basically buckle up for the next 10 years or so because GW is going to slowly replace the old marines with the new. Given how GW has done the rules in 8th, our old marines will likely still be playable, after all my IG can still use Rough Riders but I wouldn't expect to see brand new awesome rules for old marines in 10 years.
BrianDavion wrote: I've a theory a theory there is a reason space wolves didn't get the upgrade kits DAs and BAs did. and thats because GW plans on doing a more wolfed out version of some of the basic primaris later on down the road. proabnly wishful thinking but given how primaris torsos work now you'd need a dedicated set if you wanted a chest piece with a wolf instead of an eagle etc.
BA and DA and UM got a single small sprue upgrade kit; space wolves got the same. Are you not aware of that kit?
BrianDavion wrote: I've a theory a theory there is a reason space wolves didn't get the upgrade kits DAs and BAs did. and thats because GW plans on doing a more wolfed out version of some of the basic primaris later on down the road. proabnly wishful thinking but given how primaris torsos work now you'd need a dedicated set if you wanted a chest piece with a wolf instead of an eagle etc.
BA and DA and UM got a single small sprue upgrade kit; space wolves got the same. Are you not aware of that kit?
I am, but DA and BAs also got a pack of their primaris marines with the upgrade sprue included almost no price differance, something they didn't do with space wolves.
Oh, ok. Yeah, those are better deals as they include that $12 kit. FWIW, Deathwatch didn't get that branded kit either. I just assumed GW thought they were giving customers too much of a value so they stopped.
I don't recall reading that although I admit that I skimmed most of the book just looking for primaris fluff stuff skipping over the bolter porn. It's possible I missed it.
warboss wrote: I don't recall reading that although I admit that I skimmed most of the book just looking for primaris fluff stuff skipping over the bolter porn. It's possible I missed it.
It's the part where he first starts moping about being an oldmarine in a Primaris world. It mentions that he had the partial upgrade, but still felt outdated - then goes on to mope about how his position as chief smurf of Ultramar is also outdated since the grand smurf arrived.
I liked the novel overall but Calgar drove me nuts in the 'emo, but still working' attitude he carried on.
If GW does this, it's going to be a very long term thing, like 10th edition long term. In 9th we'll have a geneseed flaw exploited by the chaos gods getting hold of Cawls research. Nurgle will make a virus that takes the old stock down. Imperium will develop a cure that will upgrade the old stock to new. That will happen in 9th ed lore, where we will get a bundle of new primaris units when it drops, but still have access to the old marines as well. Key characters will get upgrades first, the ones GW doesn't like will refuse out of honor for the chapter or something and be phased out.
As for chaos, Rubriks and Plague marines are much taller than old marines, much closer to primaris. When the slaanesh and Khorne books drop, they will also be taller, so they can transition to having 2 wounds without any "but they are too tiny!" arguments.
10th will roll around with the rest of the stock of oldmarines being phased out. GW might release a book that supports them with rules, but they will be "lost chapters" or something with sub par rules specifically made so you CAN use them, but you wont want to. Or GW will officially say that many marines did not increase in size, and using the old stuff is still OK and tournament legal.
By 11th edition, old stock will be completely phased out. Current transports will be "modified" in lore to support primaris sized marines, so the million rhinos sold are not obsolete. We may also see upgrade sets/new vehicles.. who knows?
That is at least my 10 year prediction for what is going to happen to 40k.
warboss wrote: Oh, ok. Yeah, those are better deals as they include that $12 kit. FWIW, Deathwatch didn't get that branded kit either. I just assumed GW thought they were giving customers too much of a value so they stopped.
Most likely they didn't sell very well. I know that most of the BA and DA boxes my LGS got are still on the shelf. Maybe people prefer to DIY Chapters for their Primaris.
Most likely they didn't sell very well. I know that most of the BA and DA boxes my LGS got are still on the shelf. Maybe people prefer to DIY Chapters for their Primaris.
People probably prefer the cheap starterbox marines for their Primaris, as those come with the best weapon option anyway...
Thargrim wrote: The real issue I have with the primaris is the visual style. Not the scale. They just look like truescale beefed up mk IV. Very little of that gothic and more menacing style marines used to have. I don't know, they just look kinda generic sci fi. The regular marines and terminators are just too iconic. I honestly wish they would have just did a truescale of mk 7. Maybe they just need more variation of the primaris helmet design, bring back the mouth grills!
MK IV is one of the original designs. MK VII is the one that's generic as it's basically just a ripoff of Darth Vader and other science fiction properties. Although MK VI is the only power armor that is definitively original in design.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I agree that the Primaris aren't very ornamented compared to the other Space Marines. I assume that's deliberate at present - partly for logistics, so they don't need to make Blood Angels Primaris Intercessors and Dark Angels Primaris Intercessors and ... - and partly because in the background they're still not quite integrated into the existing Chapters.
Give it some time. I expect that after a couple of years we'll start seeing more Primaris units appearing, to take over the roles of existing Space Marines units to make an entirely-Primaris force more viable, and they'll start looking more individualised, just like the more recent Stormcast Eternals in Age of Sigmar.
This is almost exactly what Jes Goodwin said in early Twitch interviews. He felt they’d blinged themselves into a corner previously with Marines. They wanted to strip back and make far less ornate Primaris Marines to begin with, and bling them out as time went on.
BrianDavion wrote: I've a theory a theory there is a reason space wolves didn't get the upgrade kits DAs and BAs did. and thats because GW plans on doing a more wolfed out version of some of the basic primaris later on down the road. proabnly wishful thinking but given how primaris torsos work now you'd need a dedicated set if you wanted a chest piece with a wolf instead of an eagle etc.
BA and DA and UM got a single small sprue upgrade kit; space wolves got the same. Are you not aware of that kit?
I am, but DA and BAs also got a pack of their primaris marines with the upgrade sprue included almost no price differance, something they didn't do with space wolves.
I think you got ripped off.
I got the teeth and claws box set and it came with the Space Wolves sprue.
Is it possible you got the Kill Team Reavers?
BrianDavion wrote: I've a theory a theory there is a reason space wolves didn't get the upgrade kits DAs and BAs did. and thats because GW plans on doing a more wolfed out version of some of the basic primaris later on down the road. proabnly wishful thinking but given how primaris torsos work now you'd need a dedicated set if you wanted a chest piece with a wolf instead of an eagle etc.
BA and DA and UM got a single small sprue upgrade kit; space wolves got the same. Are you not aware of that kit?
I am, but DA and BAs also got a pack of their primaris marines with the upgrade sprue included almost no price differance, something they didn't do with space wolves.
I think you got ripped off.
I got the teeth and claws box set and it came with the Space Wolves sprue.
Is it possible you got the Kill Team Reavers?
tooth and claw does indeed come with an upgrade pack. but there's no option to buy a box of intercessors with a space wolf upgrade sprue included. thats what I mean.
Oh, I’m with you now, no basic Space Wolves less than ten man Primaris box sets exist.
I’m admittedly frugal in wolfing my Wolves to the max but I have a tackle box of Space Wolf accessories left over from SW Dreadnaught, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard Terminators, Wulfen and TWC kits as well as a few upgrade sprues and that’s after wolfing a Burning of Prospero box so I’m not greatly worried if no basic SW Primaris set exists yet.
Dakka Wolf wrote: Oh, I’m with you now, no basic Space Wolves less than ten man Primaris box sets exist.
I’m admittedly frugal in wolfing my Wolves to the max but I have a tackle box of Space Wolf accessories left over from SW Dreadnaught, Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard Terminators, Wulfen and TWC kits as well as a few upgrade sprues and that’s after wolfing a Burning of Prospero box so I’m not greatly worried if no basic SW Primaris set exists yet.
yeah me too, my only annoyance with it is that it'd be nice to buy a pack and get accessories no charge. on the other hand, you have the shoulder pads issue where really if you're not doing ragnar's company you basicly get a chain sword and some stuff you can salvage from the space wolf pack box anyway so...
I do 30k Space Wolves scheme, a red wolf head on a black or gunmetal background so Ragnar’s embossing works pretty well for me.
I have also seen some pretty sweet mods to turn the Blackmane into Edgil’s, Krom’s and Kjarl’s emblems - get creative with it.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I do 30k Space Wolves scheme, a red wolf head on a black or gunmetal background so Ragnar’s embossing works pretty well for me.
I have also seen some pretty sweet mods to turn the Blackmane into Edgil’s, Krom’s and Kjarl’s emblems - get creative with it.
eh I'm doing Blackmane anyway so it's no big deal for me (I'm a fan of the Ragnar Blackmane novels) but I could see how it would be of less value if someone was say doing the Champions of Fenris
Dakka Wolf wrote: I do 30k Space Wolves scheme, a red wolf head on a black or gunmetal background so Ragnar’s embossing works pretty well for me.
I have also seen some pretty sweet mods to turn the Blackmane into Edgil’s, Krom’s and Kjarl’s emblems - get creative with it.
eh I'm doing Blackmane anyway so it's no big deal for me (I'm a fan of the Ragnar Blackmane novels) but I could see how it would be of less value if someone was say doing the Champions of Fenris
Fair call.
I’m pretty sure the only place anyone will find Champions embossing would be Grimnar and Bjorn.
Dakka Wolf wrote: I do 30k Space Wolves scheme, a red wolf head on a black or gunmetal background so Ragnar’s embossing works pretty well for me.
I have also seen some pretty sweet mods to turn the Blackmane into Edgil’s, Krom’s and Kjarl’s emblems - get creative with it.
eh I'm doing Blackmane anyway so it's no big deal for me (I'm a fan of the Ragnar Blackmane novels) but I could see how it would be of less value if someone was say doing the Champions of Fenris
Fair call.
I’m pretty sure the only place anyone will find Champions embossing would be Grimnar and Bjorn.
I actually considered doing them but the problem is the wolf is white so making custom decals for that great company would have been annoying. not impossiable but annoying
It's a bit of a thread necro but there is news on the subject. It took longer than expected IMO but the next nail in the coffin of Secondus Marines in favor of Adeptus Restartus has begun. We have our first primaris conversion of an existing "old" marine in the fluff. I'm somewhat ambivalent as I don't like the backstory but I like the primaris models (at least in Mk X armor) themselves. Marneus Calgar is now a primaris marine.
