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I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.

The models are decent but as a Marine Player GW will never get a single cent from me for a primaris models. I have many players in my area that feel the same. As for discontinuing the model line they can't do that without ending the Horus Herasy 30k line. Maybe they do that in 5 to 10 years but the minute they do that, they are alienating a lot of players.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.

And that's exactly what I think GW would have done if they intended to replace regular SM with Primaris. The Primaris statline would just have been the standard for 8th edition SM and the new models would have just been the Mk10 armour variant. Having introduced them as reinforcements now there's no way to replace regular SM without either rendering existing SM players' armies redundant or introducing even more Primaris units to provide existing SM players with the rather unsatisfactory option of running what was a WYSIWYG army as a counts-as. I just can't see them alienating a large section of their player base like that.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
One thing I see hindering GWs plan of eventually switching primaris into truescale marine is Horus Heresy - as they still plan to release more books and models for that, and marines in 30k are oldscale, and if HH era continues to remain profitable they'll no doubt continue it with The Scouring era. I mean, they've even made 30k citadel miniatures.

GW could a horror scenario in their heads - one in which little Timmy and his mom go to a store to check out this "Warhammers" thing, and then get confused by the size difference 30k and 40k marines and the storeclerk trying to explain that 40k marines were once this seperate thing called "Primaris Marines", and just get turned off and buy a video game.

I could see that as a possible middle ground with (post) 30k HH using the older models and primaris being supported exclusively in wh41k. They'd have to come out with a Gw (not FW) mass battle ruleset first though. The only marine armor that couldn't be used in that scenario would be mk8.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

the ancient wrote:
It was said by some nobody on the design team and no one else at warhammerfest or some such.
And never mentioned again... Ever.

That 'nobody' was Pete Foley, the lead designer of 8th edition...

I think he said it too soon, and that's why they're keeping quiet about it now. The upgrade process is for keeping some of the old characters around when the time comes to phase out the old marines.

Do you have a link to the quote? It would be a helpful reference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 greyknight12 wrote:
I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.

Same here and stated as much earlier. I'd have been completely fine with primaris being a tech (armor, weapons, vehicles) only upgrade in the fluff.

Maybe Dante is too old to be "Primarised" and wouldn't survive the procedure. So he ends up in a Dreadnought giving the Blood Angels some much needed new leadership.

 warboss wrote:


Do you have a link to the quote? It would be a helpful reference.

He said it in the second 8th edition live Q&A.

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/?t=1195
At about 20ish minutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Castor wrote:
I just can't see them alienating a large section of their player base like that.

You need to consider the time scale. All new releases will be Primaris and GW will be pushing them. Most new player will get those. Then the minimarines will be moved to mail order only. When the time finally comes to pull the plug, most marine armies will be Primaris. You don't see many Rogue Trader beakies or even 2nd edition monopose plastics or metals around these days. Perhaps some legacy rules will be provided in some sort of index, or perhaps they just say people can use their old marines as counts-as Primaris.

 Crimson wrote:

 warboss wrote:


Do you have a link to the quote? It would be a helpful reference.

He said it in the second 8th edition live Q&A.

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/?t=1195
At about 20ish minutes.

Thanks! That'll be a handy reference in the future when people start to forget they ever said that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

You need to consider the time scale. All new releases will be Primaris and GW will be pushing them. Most new player will get those. Then the minimarines will be moved to mail order only. When the time finally comes to pull the plug, most marine armies will be Primaris. You don't see many Rogue Trader beakies or even 2nd edition monopose plastics or metals around these days. Perhaps some legacy rules will be provided in some sort of index, or perhaps they just say people can use their old marines as counts-as Primaris.

Yup... I said something similar when they were initially announced. So far, it's going according to plan with no new "old" marine kits being released except for what was already in the pipeline and/or limited stuff (Space Marine Heroes). Primaris are typically the poster children of books with new art (like the 40k RPG, the new kids line, etc) as opposed to the codex books that typically have been recycling art from 6th-7th edition. We'll see in another year if they stop requiring stores to stock old marine products once more primaris stuff comes out (like affordable transport and bike equivalents).

 warboss wrote:

Amongst other things, yes. I don't expect to see Secondus Marine kits released in the future or if they are it'll be at a drip rate until whatever was left in the pipeline is shoved out the end and the rare special limited edition. I expect we'll see a steady switch in focus away from normal marines to Adeptus Restartes, at first partial (again.. pipeline) and then a clear majority, in the fluff whether that be tales of glory in White Dwarf or BL novels/stories/audiobooks as well as promotional art. Eventually (maybe in a year or two) stores will no longer be required to stock much in the way of old marine plastics and then a few years after that won't be able to as they switch to direct only. My point was that we already have a 40k template for this type of bastard stepchild product line and more in the AOS line as well to look to as a guide for what to expect in the years to come.

I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.

Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.

 ProtoClone wrote:
I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.

Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.

I think there is a lot of room for this conflict in the lore right now too. Some Space Marine Chapters must look down on Primaris Marines, I think there would be no shortage of Marines questioning their validity in the face of the Ultima Founding. If you're a Space Marine from a depleted chapter which was folded into another chapter and suddenly some new jack is sporting your old colours, there is going to be some resentment. Possible Traitor Legion descendants might be hunted down by rivals of their forefathers simply for being the wrong geneseed stock. And of course, Primaris Marines can and will fall to Chaos eventually, so there is that.

 darkcloak wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.

Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.

I think there is a lot of room for this conflict in the lore right now too. Some Space Marine Chapters must look down on Primaris Marines, I think there would be no shortage of Marines questioning their validity in the face of the Ultima Founding. If you're a Space Marine from a depleted chapter which was folded into another chapter and suddenly some new jack is sporting your old colours, there is going to be some resentment. Possible Traitor Legion descendants might be hunted down by rivals of their forefathers simply for being the wrong geneseed stock. And of course, Primaris Marines can and will fall to Chaos eventually, so there is that.

Space Marines are never folded into each other, that's guard regiments not marine chapters.

I thought there was precedent of depleted Chapters being merged into one when one or both chapters geneseed stocks were badly depleted, given that this wouldn't take them above codex limits and that's part of the reason why the Astral Claws got so dicked over during the Badab Schism. The ACs merged in a successor Chapter, Tiger something's? It wasn't a violation for Huron to have done that, but since it took his chapter above codex limits and he made his own standing army afterwards it became a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not saying it's as common as in the Imperial Guard, where it's almost after every campaign, but it does happen. If not specifically referred to outside of the Badab War we can still assume that it happens because simple military logistics can give us plenty of justification for such a thing. A better question would be why wouldn't depleted Chapters merge together to continue operating? There could be any number of reasons why some chapters might choose to go extinct, but from a 'your dudes' standpoint I'd say there is ample room for you to go that route if you wanted.

Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.

 darkcloak wrote:

 ProtoClone wrote:
I would love to see a civil war between the old vs the new.

Narrative campaign like the HH, but on a smaller less impacting scale.

I think there is a lot of room for this conflict in the lore right now too. Some Space Marine Chapters must look down on Primaris Marines, I think there would be no shortage of Marines questioning their validity in the face of the Ultima Founding. If you're a Space Marine from a depleted chapter which was folded into another chapter and suddenly some new jack is sporting your old colours, there is going to be some resentment. Possible Traitor Legion descendants might be hunted down by rivals of their forefathers simply for being the wrong geneseed stock. And of course, Primaris Marines can and will fall to Chaos eventually, so there is that.

I could see chapters who have been struggling to fill ranks have a sense of deceit for the empire withholding what could have been essential tech from them. Others see this as a misstep and a repeating of history that lead to the HH.

For ages there will be a sense of us/them mentality that boils over and brings the empire to civil war. During this time other factions will see this as a chance to gain foothold in important sectors, or to just sew mayhem.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.

His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?

Banville wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.

His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?

There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.

pm713 wrote:

Banville wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.

His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?

There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.

Hell ARE the dark angels the "second biggest source of geneseed"? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the first lords didn't partiuclarly like using dark angels geneseed because of how secretive they where etc. I'd have figured the Imperial fists where .

I subscribe to an even wilder conspiracy theory: I think Games Workshop might actually be entirely straightfaced with primaris marine lore, and I think "we're being replaced! GW is coming for our marines!" is largely a result of the most spoiled playerbase in the game's history having to deal with a similar level of focus and attention of all other factions in the game for ~1 year.

We are in the age of big shiny heroes in the 41st millennium. Warhammer Adventures is being produced. Battle of Vedros is in toy stores. Games Workshop has identified the biggest untapped market for their highly niche, expensive product and the most important market to capture for sustainable growth is little brothers and sons of existing 40k collectors/gamers.

Primaris Marines solve many of the longstanding problems marines pose to young gamers while amplifying the aspects of space marines that heavily appeal to young boys. They are impossible to "build wrong" with their fixed loadouts (I should know, I was crestfallen when my first game at 11 years old was a disaster because I had my Long Fangs armed with a lascannon, a heavy bolter, a missile launcher, a multi-melta.... and then they all got flattened by a single shot from a leman russ) and thanks to the mix of weaponry on every unit, it's similarly difficult to build an army that can't handle any particular type of threat. And looks wise, oh man are these guys designed to be every kind of awesome for kids that age! If I was 11 and starting 40k again I would take one look at Reivers and that would be that, I want an army with as many of those as humanly possible!

Their "like marines, but better" lore makes much more sense when you consider that odds are extremely good that prospective 10-13 year old gamers with a relative who also plays 40k are most likely to have that relative already playing Space Marines. It gives them a way to be just like dad/brother, but at the same time even though they're massively simplified from a game standpoint they get to feel like they're playing "the best of the best".

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe this is a vast conspiracy by GW to phase out space marines. It's tough to tell, because I'd say "hey, lets wait and see if they replace *outdated Kit* with primaris" but honestly none of the marine factions have a kit that's anywhere near outdated. If you made a list of the top ten classic factions with up-to-date fancy ranges, Space Marines would probably be 7 of those entries. The upcoming ork release is replacing a 21 year old model. Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Banville wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.

His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?

There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.

Hell ARE the dark angels the "second biggest source of geneseed"? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the first lords didn't partiuclarly like using dark angels geneseed because of how secretive they where etc. I'd have figured the Imperial fists where .

I think DA are. They're just shady whereas Fists, Ravens, Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Iron Hands all have something wrong with their geneseed or a weird thing with bionics. Not many good choices.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Banville wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Well, let remember a big start of the whole Horus Heresy itself was Crusade Marines feeling like they're being pushed aside....

Doesn't seem like a smart decision for Robute to pretty much re-create it.

Might be an interesting point to cover when the Lion finally wakes. Will he take control of all the "old" marines and Legion up? Seems very likely to me.

not likely, outside of his own genesons the Lion just lacks the gravitis to inspire a revolt.

His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?

There's not really a way to get anyone else to join them though is there? The Lion is good for leading a revolt but not starting one.

Hell ARE the dark angels the "second biggest source of geneseed"? I seem to recall hearing somewhere that the first lords didn't partiuclarly like using dark angels geneseed because of how secretive they where etc. I'd have figured the Imperial fists where .

I think DA are. They're just shady whereas Fists, Ravens, Wolves, Blood Angels, Salamanders and Iron Hands all have something wrong with their geneseed or a weird thing with bionics. Not many good choices.

Cawl: "Chapter master Hierro Kasi of the Iron Hands, I am here to collect my tithe of DNA for the primaris marines."

HK: "Oh sure, as long as you're ok with...the bionics."

Cawl: "You silly man, replacing your arms with metal does nothing to your DNA. Besides, we in the adeptus mechanicus have no problem with that, in fact we see it as somewhat character-building as a pastime."

HK: *hands cawl a microscope* "see for yourself"

Cawl: "what the devil?"

the_scotsman wrote:
Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?

The bike. And a lot of the special characters, but they're not "kits", I suppose.

A new bike kit'd be nice, fill it with bits and bling and bring back bike veterns properly.

I'd be surprised if we don't see Mk V, VI and VII kits for Horus Heresy once they start getting into Seige of Terra boardgames, to be honest. I don't see the "standard" marine going away for a long time, especially since that's the basis of Chaos Marines

Banville wrote:His own genesons? You mean the second largest group of chapters outside the Ultras? The guys who regularly meet in conclave and, to all intents and purposes, already have a Legion type command and control organisation? Those guys?

You say second largest, but they're still nowhere NEAR close to being 3/5ths of all Space Marine Chapters like Ultramarine stock are.

He may have the second largest, but it's probably under even 1/5th of all Chapters. Unless Imperial Fists, Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Blood Angels, Salamanders, and White Scars only count for 1/5 of all Chapters between them (which I doubt).

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?

The bike. And a lot of the special characters, but they're not "kits", I suppose.

Wow, 1999! That is pretty elderly. That kit has aged super freakin' well, considering its analogues are stuff like the old dark eldar sculpts....which...euuuugh.

Scouts too I guess. So, I guess that's the kit to look out for! Will we see new Space Marine Bikers/scouts in 3-5 years.

Looking down the list at what's "ahead of them in line" so to speak, we've got:

-A huge fraction of the Craftworld Eldar range (Guardians, half the current aspect warrior sculpts, all the pheonix lords, avatar, all the big tanks, vyper, war walker)
-Chaos marines (all the vehicles and basic infantry barring the jump guys)
-Tyranids (basic infantry, stealers, really showing their age and mono-poseness)
-Guard (basic infantry)

those I think of as the biggest offenders, where their basic, iconic troop kit just looks like absolute assgarbage.

The Space Marine bike kit is in the 1997 catalogue - it came out for 2nd edition (look at the backpack and the lack of panel lines, vents and sockets on the armour), while the original Dark Eldar came out for 3rd. Of the models you've listed, they're all newer kits than the Space Marine bike. Other than the Ork buggy, the only other army with non-character models dating back to 2nd edition are Sisters of Battle.

Yeah, it came out iirc during second edition so the mid 90's (1993-1998). Other character models for space marines (Dante, Ragnar, Azrael, Abaddon, etc) still exist from that time without being replaced/updated.

For me, it's clear that GW is doing the same thing to 40K that they did to the Old World. But, instead of blowing it all up, and making you start over, they are slowly bleeding it out over time.

What happened to Warhammer Fantasy? They killed the "big kit" idea, where you paid $35 US to get 16 guys, and now pay $58 US for 5 guys. Less plastic. Higher cost. More profit.

The same exact thing is happening in 40K. Don't believe me? Old Tactical squad costs $40 US, and you have 10 marines on 3 sprues. Primaris whatevers cost $60 US, and have 10 guys on 2 sprues. Less plastic. Higher costs. More profit.

It doesn't matter if the background sucks. It doesn't matter if you have been a fan since 1985, like me. They are all about profit. That's the plan. Force everyone to buy whole new armies of overpriced box sets.

If you are fine with this, then there is no problem. If you are upset that they have now destroyed two of your favorite game universes in a ham fisted way, all for profit, then you are in the same boat as me.

I have spent thousands of dollars over the last few decades, but that doesn't matter. I have at least 1,000 points of every army that they have released. I have multiple Space Marine Companies. Yes, multiple. I have 5 Knights. I bought all of the books, video games, novels, and even that terrible movie. But, that means nothing now. They got what they wanted from me, and now they are looking for fresh meat.

I think that is terribly foolish. I used to introduce half a dozen people to the hobby every month. Every month. They each spent hundreds of dollars. Now? I have turned my back on GW. I'm done playing their game.

I'm not alone. Almost everyone I know feels the same way. We are going to stick with 7th, and Heralds of Ruin for Kill Team. They work just fine, if not better, and I don't have to throw away 30+ years of the hobby.

But, you all have fun. I hope that hey bring you as much joy as I have experienced over the years.

they introduce new kits and you're upset? ... ok then.

Look, the last tac Squad kit they released was only about two years ago little early to panic over the inevitable death of "Old Marines"

I don't have as much heartache over the size of the primaris as much as that I hate how they look. the size of models overall bothers me due to the table still being 6x4 and them seemingly encouraging smaller tables. So for me the primaris are fail/fail. I dont like the size and I hate the look. dont much care for the bigger bases on my current mk3 and mk4's either, but thats a whole other complaint.