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 thekingofkings wrote:
I don't have as much heartache over the size of the primaris as much as that I hate how they look. the size of models overall bothers me due to the table still being 6x4 and them seemingly encouraging smaller tables. So for me the primaris are fail/fail. I dont like the size and I hate the look. dont much care for the bigger bases on my current mk3 and mk4's either, but thats a whole other complaint.

the bigger bases are kinda nice hoenstly, I don't think I could go back to the smaller ones. the small ones just looked so.. crowded

I think my main issue with the decriers is more or less it becomes binary.

My take: Standard space marines are done, and you won't see another kit, outside of "maybe" new characters if it fits the story line for them to stay non-Primaris. If GW goes all Primaris (as they will) they'll either have to kill of characters (impossible for some), adapt them to Primaris or simply resculpt them in classic power armour, and they'll be the old hold-outs. A tiny chance of a "new" version of Space Marine armour just to suit the characters, in order to justify new sculpts. What does this mean for classic marines? Nothing for a good 5-10 years. The rules will remain for...a loooong time, and the kits will continue on until they become so outdated and sell so poorly that GW can slowly kill them off. Primaris will get more kit releases and eventually old marines will simply fade.

However, it seems that half of the people who read that paragraph then say: "OMG they're not going to kill off classic marines!" as if GW is just going to pull the plug in the next 18 months and say "tough gak marine players!".

GW can, and will replace basic marine kits with Primaris kits in the future...it's going to happen. However that doesn't equate to just dumping marine players on their asses and burning the bridge they've built...they're not 'that' stupid. So how will this happen in my opinion?

1) Primaris units will continue to be released.
2) There will be enough power creep to eventually put Primaris ahead of classic marines.
3) New players in their teens will now grow up with Primaris and will see older kits as outdated, small, ugly, etc.
4) It's possible we'll see a slow build in the rules/codices which will also edge Primaris over normal marines.
5) In 10 years time you'll have a bunch of old, fading marine kits with mediocre stats, being outshone by new and shiny Primaris options...slowly GW will justify the killing off of plastic kits. Again we're talking long term.

I think characters will stay around, and I do think you might see a new "fancy" version of these classic characters. A 'normal' sized new version of power armour which fits the Primaris aesthetic and lets GW put the characters out alongside their new bigger brethren. It'll have some cool name of course

that's possiable Elbows, but yeah, it's something that's going to happen over a decade if not more. not worth getting into a tizzy over. being honest, most of us will likely not be playing by time old Marines go kaput.

I mean in ten years time I'll be 46!

I think primarisized versions of the 20+ year old metal special characters are a good idea in theory but they lose me personally with the $25+ cost for single small sprue monopose figs. If they had actually passed on some of the savings they got with the move to plastics onto the consumer then I'd have bought a whole bunch of primaris characters myself. Instead, I'm picking up starter set models for $3.50 each and converting them with bits.

I'm thinking Kirby was planning to replace the current marine line with Primaris (as a simplification to the line along the lines of "less options are cheaper to write rules for and make minis for" - sort of the same budget slashing that led to 1-man stores), but when Roundtree was put in charge, he was gunshy to follow through (after glancing through the sales sheets for the SM line). Most likely development was too far along stopping Primaris from coming to market, but we seem to be in a holding pattern on how things will proceed.

The JP Space Marine figures does seem to indicate the old line isn't going away yet.

 Stormonu wrote:
I'm thinking Kirby was planning to replace the current marine line with Primaris (as a simplification to the line along the lines of "less options are cheaper to write rules for and make minis for" - sort of the same budget slashing that led to 1-man stores), but when Roundtree was put in charge, he was gunshy to follow through (after glancing through the sales sheets for the SM line). Most likely development was too far along stopping Primaris from coming to market, but we seem to be in a holding pattern on how things will proceed.

The JP Space Marine figures does seem to indicate the old line isn't going away yet.

Could be, replacing marines with primaris sounds like the King of "No Market research Kirby" would do.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.

They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.

Remember they have entire game for which those MKIII and MKIV kits are 100% essential and not replacable by primaris models. Apart from different look primaris models are TOO BIG to be used for HH models period.


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 greyknight12 wrote:
I still wish Primarus were the upgrades...ie simply truescale versions of tactical marines.

Too bad then that primaris models are too tall for space marines. Primaris are about the size of custodians who are head taller than space marines.

tneva82 wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I tend to agree GW's not going to be in a hurry to replace old Marines. The old marine kits are too new. I mean the MK3 kit is only 2 years old, the MK IV, devestator and assault marine kits? 3 years old. the basic MK VIII Tac squad kit? about 5 years old.

They are just being greedy though, they should just be straight with us. Say these models will be replaced by Primaris but you can continue to use all the old marines etc. and continue to make rules. People that don't see the writing on the wall are going to keep wasting money on models that in the future will be replaced. Its a bit unfair to those people.

Remember they have entire game for which those MKIII and MKIV kits are 100% essential and not replacable by primaris models. Apart from different look primaris models are TOO BIG to be used for HH models period.


.

agreed. standard marines are safe until at the very LEAST FW ends the HH.

the_scotsman wrote:
Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?

Land raider and rhino are at least close.

Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...

I wonder would GW consider bridging the gap between the Heresy and 41k, that might allow space for people to still play their old marines and give Primaris a proper focus.

Call it Warhammer : Age of Strife, or something. Release a series of supplements along with their own dexes and fluff accompaniment delving into some of the many incursions, wars and rebellions that took place between 30k and 40k. Take the Forgeworld Books, for example, like Siege of Vraks etc. Get someone to sit down and redo the army lists and change the fluff (where necessary) and then release them under the main GW banner. Here's a whole series of books for fully compatible with the 40k rules in which you can use your old models. And they can make it absolutely clear that thus isn't an expansion or supplement, it's part of the main game that allows a player to field historical or specialised forces, forces that still exist in the 41st millennium.

All the old marines and Xenos and chaos have a stomping ground where they can operate in the old fluff. The new Primaris can then carry the torch into the future, lighting the way for returning Primarchs and other such jiggery pokery.

The lack of new SM kits recently does point to a plan to gradually phase them out. However, there are also anecdotal reports that Primaris really aren't selling too well at all. It may be that the original plan will need to be revised. It would also be a huge risk for GW to phase out regular Marines. Those sprues have paid for themselves several times over now so any sales they make are pure profit (after taking the various standard costs into account) - there's no element of those sales still going to paying off the start-up costs of tooling the sprues and designing the models.

If it does happen I think it's going to be quite a while before we see any sort of meaningful effects of the decision. The lack of new models is hardly a major problem given how extensive the range for regular Marines already is.

tneva82 wrote:


Too bad then that primaris models are too tall for space marines. Primaris are about the size of custodians who are head taller than space marines.

You keep saying this, and every time I ask for the source. The Custodes codex says no such thing.

 Graphite wrote:
Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...

A big bulky heavier version of the primaris armor that is a steady firing platform for more weapons? Something like a terminator that has an assault bolt weapon paired with a power fist? And maybe some of them could be upgraded with top mounted missile launchers like the cyclone? Something that was available as a unit but also as an upgrade for some independent characters? Yeah, if only there was a primaris equivalent...

 warboss wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...

A big bulky heavier version of the primaris armor that is a steady firing platform for more weapons? Something like a terminator that has an assault bolt weapon paired with a power fist? And maybe some of them could be upgraded with top mounted missile launchers like the cyclone? Something that was available as a unit but also as an upgrade for some independent characters? Yeah, if only there was a primaris equivalent...

Spoiler:

Fills a TOTALLY differant role. Terminators fill a heavy armored shock troop role. Agressors do not. they instead are more of a heavy armored fire support role. Agrressors aren't primaris Terminators. they're Primaris centurions.

Aren't Centurions just discount Terminators? That's their whole point no?

pm713 wrote:
Aren't Centurions just discount Terminators? That's their whole point no?

not really. there are some differances.

I'm actually kind of relieved that this will no doubt come to further prominence. It's got to be the only way to keep beloved special characters up to date, model-wise.

I would expect if the primaris project continues that in the near future an all Primaris chapter specific codex will be released.

Then following on from all recent snowflake chapters getting access to codex exclusive equipment next edition there will be one codex for all original marines.

Then a further Primaris codex with multiple chapters included.

Edition after that mini marines are no more.

SeanDrake wrote:
I would expect if the primaris project continues that in the near future an all Primaris chapter specific codex will be released.

Then following on from all recent snowflake chapters getting access to codex exclusive equipment next edition there will be one codex for all original marines.

Then a further Primaris codex with multiple chapters included.

Edition after that mini marines are no more.

I doubt it, there are a very clearly identifable pattern in what marine codex got what. it was all "niche filling"

Dark Angels have a fighter and a ground support flier.. so they got the stormraven as their "big ass transport" space wolves had a ground attack flier and a "big ass transport" but no fighter, so got the Stormhawk. then they also all got the anti-air tanks. and the "generic heresy era stuff" if black tempalrs had their own codex still I bet they would have gotten the fliers and ground anti-air units but no heresy era stuff

What role do Scouts have in the new Primaris Marine chapters?

Are scouts all just aspiring Primaris now? And shouldn't a Scout Sergeant be primaris and have 2 wounds?

Or are Scouts done off completely? Reivers aren't Scouts per se.

I don't know. Considering that "fresh" Primaris were just thawed out and put into battle without bothering with the scout phase of traditional marine development might indicate that they just learn on the job similar to iirc Horus Heresy era legions.

it's possiable that Cawl decided that using your new Neophytes as your advance scout force was a horriable idea

But I quite enjoyed watching the future of my chapter splatter itself against enemy formations!

But I guess, no more 'crucible of war'.

Until we do get some sort of P-Marine Scout analog I suppose I'll have to settle for splatting actual Marines against things

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Have marines ever had a kit stick around for 21 years without getting at least one replacement?

Land raider and rhino are at least close.

Yeah, I was going to say. Land Speeder too. It's basically the same model from the 3rd ed. Box set with a couple extra guns. Plus a bunch of Special Characters are the same sculpt as 2nd Ed days. Mephiston, Azrael, Ezekiel, etc.

I'm not sure when the Boxnaught kit was converted to plastic. Sometime in 3rd, maybe.


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BrianDavion wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Still wonder what's going to happen to Terminators. No direct primaris equivalent of TDA yet...

A big bulky heavier version of the primaris armor that is a steady firing platform for more weapons? Something like a terminator that has an assault bolt weapon paired with a power fist? And maybe some of them could be upgraded with top mounted missile launchers like the cyclone? Something that was available as a unit but also as an upgrade for some independent characters? Yeah, if only there was a primaris equivalent...

Spoiler:

Fills a TOTALLY differant role. Terminators fill a heavy armored shock troop role. Agressors do not. they instead are more of a heavy armored fire support role. Agrressors aren't primaris Terminators. they're Primaris centurions.

Sort of... fire support units don't usually sport Powerfists as standard equipment. Plus I think their Special rules allow them to ignore penalties when advancing. Imo they're definitely a shock troop type of thing.

So ugly though.

I think the whole bit about old marines being upgradable to Primaris was there if reaction to Primaris was overwhelmingly positive. I think that people are assuming that the plan for Primaris and old marines is set in stone but GW's plan is more flexible. It's not like they can change products like Introducing New Coke, then Coke Classic when people react badly, and eventually do away with new and classic lines in favor of a regular Coke line using the old recipe. I'm betting that they released Primaris the way they did so they could replace old marines, but also left room for other options like giving them a separate codex later or even letting them fizzle.

Skaorn wrote:
I think the whole bit about old marines being upgradable to Primaris was there if reaction to Primaris was overwhelmingly positive. I think that people are assuming that the plan for Primaris and old marines is set in stone but GW's plan is more flexible. It's not like they can change products like Introducing New Coke, then Coke Classic when people react badly, and eventually do away with new and classic lines in favor of a regular Coke line using the old recipe. I'm betting that they released Primaris the way they did so they could replace old marines, but also left room for other options like giving them a separate codex later or even letting them fizzle.

I think GW knew quite well that the inital reaction to Primaris Marines would be somewhat hostile, the "new GW" seems to have a good finger to the pulse of the mind of the fanbase and the innate conservitism of the 40K fanbase isn't exactly a secret.

but at the same time inital reaction to AOS was hostile too. I think Primaris Marines will be accepted just fine given a few years for us to 1: adapt to them. 2: for GW to expand the lore base etc and thus make them seem less tacked on

I wish they'd hurry up and dump the previous scale altogether. It's holding me up from buying any marines.

 Manchu wrote:
I wish they'd hurry up and dump the previous scale altogether. It's holding me up from buying any marines.

it's stopping me, I'm expecting GW to maintain primaris as their own thing for a long time hence. by time they get around to replacing them I'll proably be closing on 50.

The real issue I have with the primaris is the visual style. Not the scale. They just look like truescale beefed up mk IV. Very little of that gothic and more menacing style marines used to have. I don't know, they just look kinda generic sci fi. The regular marines and terminators are just too iconic. I honestly wish they would have just did a truescale of mk 7. Maybe they just need more variation of the primaris helmet design, bring back the mouth grills!