For those who haven't yet heard, there will be two new ... I mean they're marketed as 'Codex' but they're more like supplement books I guess.

Elucidian Starstriders are the new Rogue Trader group. Which could -almost- be considered original, or at least new for 8th edition, except that they are yet another Imperium-only supplement force of characters. So basically it's another Inquisition, or Assassins. Which would be great, if every other army also had multiple sources of powerful character units to draw upon, but considering that literally no other army has this, it's more of a slap in the face to any non-Imperium player out there.

Oh, well, there's also the other army. Gellerpox Infected. No official word on the army alliance, but they're Nurgle so it seems that it's just another group on the bloat bus. I may be alone on this, but the bloated corpse look isn't that interesting after the 20th different 'unit' that looks the same as all the others. I can only assume someone on the design team has a fetish.

So ok, Chaos -might- be getting their own selection of new units... as long as they play Death Guard or Nurgle Daemons. Otherwise they won't really fit.


I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

And then they made them yet another chunky piece of flotsam in the turgid pool of Imperial Soup.

I think, personally, that I would have been way more excited if the Gellerpox were just something... better. An evil cultist version of the Rogue Traders maybe, with a variety of interesting and fluffy character choices. Instead they're just... nothing we don't already have. Just a line up of interchangable ugly monsters that have no character or personality at all.

Just my opinion of course, I'm sure anyone who plays Imperium or Death Guard is very happy right now (which is unfortunately a pretty large percentage of the playing population). Would be interested to hear other peoples opinions on these.

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Tyranids hiring Rogue Trader mercenaries. That WOULD be original, and uh... amazing.

Minidex for the Rogue Trader could be interesting (even more interesting if they could ally with Xenos since Rogue Traders tend to play fast and loose with a lot of laws).

Allowing Xenos to take Rogue Trader allies is a cool idea. You could also do it with the Inquisition, assuming a radical Inquisitor.

If you don't like it whenever GW releases something for Imperium or Nurgle/DeathGuard, I don't think 8th edition is for you...

Joking of course, but seriously, I think they look sweet, nice throwback to the origins of the game. Not being available to every faction in no way takes away from the originality.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Tyranids hiring Rogue Trader mercenaries. That WOULD be original, and uh... amazing.

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spartacus wrote:
If you don't like it whenever GW releases something for Imperium or Nurgle/DeathGuard, I don't think 8th edition is for you...

Joking of course, but seriously, I think they look sweet, nice throwback to the origins of the game. Not being available to every faction in no way takes away from the originality.

I think adding Rogue Traders was a great thing to do. I just wish they were more even handed.

Instead of the Nurgle boringness, they SHOULD have released a mercenary pirate band.

The killteam becomes "Rogue Traders vs Pirates" which is way better than "Traders vs Maggots".

And the Mercenary Pirates can be an unaligned supplement, similar to the Rogue Traders in options but accessible to multiple different factions/races.

Job done, money in the bank.

I think it is widely agreed that anything Xenos would have been better than the Nurgle mutants. They almost feel like they were lying around for another project that fell through so they slapped them into Rogue trader so they didn't have to spend development time on a Xenos foe.

Why are you upset about Killteam getting more factions?

Niiru wrote:

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

Actually orks fighting for humans(mercenaries) is time honoured part of 40k fluff. But gamewise last thing we need is add more soup elements to imperium

Umm, they aren't upset about two more Kill Team factions. They are upset at what they expect to be yet another Imperium Faction and yet another Nurgle Faction for 40K.

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why are you upset about Killteam getting more factions?

He's not, he's upset that to further sales from people who don't play kill team, that these are also avaliable for 40k games as allies. thing is, chaos is pretty much one of the few factions other then IoM that can support a wide varity of differant armies with differant looks based around a shared general aestetic patron.

that said the Tau could support as much depth as the IoM and chaos, I'd LOOOVE to see that expanded.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why are you upset about Killteam getting more factions?

He's not, he's upset that to further sales from people who don't play kill team, that these are also avaliable for 40k games as allies. thing is, chaos is pretty much one of the few factions other then IoM that can support a wide varity of differant armies with differant looks based around a shared general aestetic patron.

that said the Tau could support as much depth as the IoM and chaos, I'd LOOOVE to see that expanded.

Chaos *could be* one of the alternative factions to Imperium, that allows for interesting and fluffy armies with a variety of aesthetics. But it isn't, really, because all the options being made for it have been Nurgle.

I'd have much preferred Mercenaries (as I've said already), but if it had to be a Chaos-only option ... why not dark mechanicus? So many other better options out there than another set of nurgle models.

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why are you upset about Killteam getting more factions?

He's not, he's upset that to further sales from people who don't play kill team, that these are also avaliable for 40k games as allies. thing is, chaos is pretty much one of the few factions other then IoM that can support a wide varity of differant armies with differant looks based around a shared general aestetic patron.

that said the Tau could support as much depth as the IoM and chaos, I'd LOOOVE to see that expanded.

Chaos *could be* one of the alternative factions to Imperium, that allows for interesting and fluffy armies with a variety of aesthetics. But it isn't, really, because all the options being made for it have been Nurgle.

I'd have much preferred Mercenaries (as I've said already), but if it had to be a Chaos-only option ... why not dark mechanicus? So many other better options out there than another set of nurgle models.

the Thousand Sons are Nurgle now are they? right now chaos has 4 (well 5 if you include renegade knights) distinct armies, Chaos Deamons, which supports all 4, chaos space marines, 1 thousand Sons (Tzeetch) and Death Guard. and many people are assuming that we're going to get a world eaters and emperor;s children codex down the road. even if we count this codex as anything distinct beyond a "hey you know what would be awesome? ZOMBIES!" (which TBH I don't) GW's hardly focusing only on nurgle, especially given we KNOW a biiiig slaanish focus is coming

edit: delete me please

BrianDavion wrote:

Niiru wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson Devil wrote:
Why are you upset about Killteam getting more factions?

He's not, he's upset that to further sales from people who don't play kill team, that these are also avaliable for 40k games as allies. thing is, chaos is pretty much one of the few factions other then IoM that can support a wide varity of differant armies with differant looks based around a shared general aestetic patron.

that said the Tau could support as much depth as the IoM and chaos, I'd LOOOVE to see that expanded.

Chaos *could be* one of the alternative factions to Imperium, that allows for interesting and fluffy armies with a variety of aesthetics. But it isn't, really, because all the options being made for it have been Nurgle.

I'd have much preferred Mercenaries (as I've said already), but if it had to be a Chaos-only option ... why not dark mechanicus? So many other better options out there than another set of nurgle models.

the Thousand Sons are Nurgle now are they? right now chaos has 4 (well 5 if you include renegade knights) distinct armies, Chaos Deamons, which supports all 4, chaos space marines, 1 thousand Sons (Tzeetch) and Death Guard. and many people are assuming that we're going to get a world eaters and emperor;s children codex down the road. even if we count this codex as anything distinct beyond a "hey you know what would be awesome? ZOMBIES!" (which TBH I don't) GW's hardly focusing only on nurgle, especially given we KNOW a biiiig slaanish focus is coming

Nurgle got mortarian, bliiightbringers, Lords of contagion, plague casters, blights pawn, putrifiers, tally man, deathshroud and blight Lords, bloat drones, blight haulers, plague bursts, scriveners, bilepipers,... I'm sure there's a couple more im forgetting, probably blight or plague something or another.

Thousand sons got Magnus, and tzaangors, and tzaangors on disks, and the vortex beast. I think that's basically it.

So Yeh, not really comparable.

I'll admit though that I hadn't heard any rumours about a big Slaanesh lineup coming soon. The only rumours I'd heard is that Gw is actually phasing out the Slaanesh line because it's not family friendly enough to have half naked hermaphrodites.

World eaters and angron will come eventually, but I imagine it'll be more like the thousand sons book. Angron plus a couple new units to back up berserkers...maybe a berserker terminator squad. (were scarab occult terminators new? I can't remember)

Nurgle have definitely had a big big push by Gw in the last year. Maybe it's the most popular God?

1K sons also got Rubric Marines and Rubric Terminators, (which came out at the same time as Magnus)

and yeah there's some confirmed info about Slaanish coming out, eneugh to strongly suggest that we'll see a massive release of Slaanish demons, and if past precidance is anything to go by, p[lastic noise marines and fulgrim.

A lotta the last year or so has focused on Nurgle, with the focus Battlezone being the Plague war, I suspect 2019 will see A focus on Slaanish in a big way, the core book describes inital pushes to carve out a realm by Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeetch to varying degrees of sucess, Slaanish has yet to make his/hers/its move. and I suspect that move is coming.


GW seems to have focused on a differant god each half year or so. Khrone got the first focus, with Traitor's hate, and the AOS release, which saw Kharn get a new mini etc. then we had Tzeetch get some love that saw Magnus return, a buncha new AOS and 40k Tzeetch related minis. next up nurgle got some love.. Slaaanish is due.

I'm also not impressed with the continued Nurgle minis, really, enough is enough. It could have been practically anything else. How about the crew infected by a form of the techno virus that affects Obliterators? Still chaos, still great leeway for models, just not Nurgle.

Niiru wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Tyranids hiring Rogue Trader mercenaries. That WOULD be original, and uh... amazing.

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

Imperium is the largest and most diverse faction in the universe of 40k and their histories and departments are extensively recorded. Continually releasing imperials is because there are so many un-explored sub-sub-factions of Imperials.

Tyranids are all one faction and granted Genestealer Cults.
Orks are all the same, because they are conformists. One Warboss is the exact same as another Warboss in the history books unless something truly spectacular marks them as special, both to the Ork and to the Imperium, such as the Beast or Ghazghkul. However, a Bad Moons warband is pretty much the same as the next Bad Moons warband, and a Speed Kult is pretty much like every Kult - they drive red things fast.
Eldar have many key players however they come under several sub-factions, but each mini-group in the SF is pretty much the same and can built using the main codexes - Craftworlds covers ALL craftworlds. Drukhari covers ALL Deldar because they follow Vect's rules. Ynnari covers all Ynnari because there isn't much of them. Harlequins same.
Tau are uniform conformists whose only differences lie in specific tactics of various Septs. We don't need to see Codex Water Caste or Earth Caste as they don't apply to war, and we already have rules to cover Fire, Air and Ethereal Castes.
Necrons again are a somewhat uniform army with little diversity between their various Tomb Worlds, as all Necron Warriors are the same. Sure, one might be more focused on Immortals, but really very little difference.

The main thing with all the Xenos is that even though they have sub-factions, those Sub-factions are not big enough or diverse enough to warrant a seperate book for 1-3 units with little options.

On the other hand, Rogue Traders don't have any current codex that current does them justice and has the diversity to represent them accurately. Inquisition are in a similar situation. Sure, these could surely be condensed into a singular "Imperial Forces" book, but then GW can't sell them as seperate - and they do sell well.

I agree that another Nurgle army is pointless and can be easily rolled into a Death Guard or Nurgle Daemonkin style book, but GW does GW.

Xenos not having subfactions is because GW hasn't bothered to write those...There's nothing inheritent why xenos can't have just as rich factions if writers put their mind to it.

tneva82 wrote:
Xenos not having subfactions is because GW hasn't bothered to write those...There's nothing inheritent why xenos can't have just as rich factions if writers put their mind to it.

This is what I was gona say. For example, with how fast Tau developt, and the 200 years move to 8th edition, Farsight Enclaves should have diverged enough from the Tau Empire to have many different units, much better fluff explained difference than DA or BA vs codex marines. GWs wiling.

It’s incredible. GW are releasing stuff at a rate we’ve literally never seen before and people are still finding ways to complain that not every single release is catering exclusively to their individual tastes.

tneva82 wrote:
Xenos not having subfactions is because GW hasn't bothered to write those...There's nothing inheritent why xenos can't have just as rich factions if writers put their mind to it.

thing is the current crop of writers aren't "putting their minds" to new factions for the IoM. they're just fleshing out and adding ones that have existed for, in most cases, decades. Custodes, Admech, Deathwatch, Imperial Knights, Harliquins, Genestealer cults, Rogue Traders, NONE of these are new, they're all things that existed in the fluff and often ahd Minis back in the old rogue trader days (or during epic in the case of Knights) it's pretty clear to me that GW's market stragety is to expand 40k by mining it's past. which makes perfect sense as it's a lot safer then introducing entirely new factions, consider the resistance to Primaris Marines and even the minority these days who think the Tau just don't fit the setting. By going with stuff that has always existed GW ensure minmium chance of resistance or backlash to new things.

So the best thing to do would be to comb through old lore, find some stuff for various factions and mention them high, loud and frequently to GW through social media etc. The Tau have a whole mess of servitor races who could get their own codex, A Kroot Mercenaries 'dex for example may be just what Nirru seems to want.

Off the top of my head here are some fun ideas taken from Lore.

1: Kroot Mercenaries.
2: Traitor Guard (seriously we NEED a new lost and damned codex)
3: Ork Freebooters (I am of the opinion Freebooters are distinct eneugh from a normal Ork Waagh to be justified having their own codex)
4: Squats (with the number of things that have already been dusted off can squats really be far behind?)
5: emperor's children and world eaters

I'm sure plenty of other ideas are otu there too

 Nazrak wrote:
It’s incredible. GW are releasing stuff at a rate we’ve literally never seen before and people are still finding ways to complain that not every single release is catering exclusively to their individual tastes.

^^

couldn't have said it better.

There is so much awesome stuff coming out this month alone that I literally can't list it all without searching it up. Who even knows what else next month will bring, on top of GSC release just around the corner.

It's never been a more diverse time to play 40k, there has never been this many different ways to play the game and different games to play in the 40k universe.






And this god awful community still throws tantrums about it.

If people can find a way to complain about rogue trader's finally getting models as has been requested countless times for multiple decades, then they will complain about literally anything.

They will release tons of factions for Imperium. But do you see much Ork soup? Tau soup? Necron soup?

The core focus, both narrative- and setting-wise, of 40K, has always been the Imperium, and the galaxy it occupies. I can’t see this changing any time soon; it’s our window into the 40K setting, from a human perspective.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see the other factions get expanded further in the future, but to be honest, I’m quite pleased that I’ll be able to get all the rules I need for my Orks in one Codex, rather than spread out across several.

tneva82 wrote:
They will release tons of factions for Imperium. But do you see much Ork soup? Tau soup? Necron soup?

thats because the Imperium has a ton of factions. none of the factions added to 40k have been newly invented.

Nothing original? When was the last time we had a legitimate Rogue Trader we could run in a game?

It's a huge part of the historic lore of the setting that's been almost untouched for decades. That's really exciting!

I understand that not every Chaos player likes the Nurgle aesthetic though, and they've had a lot of attention over the last year. That's fair. But it has been the year that Death Guard got the most attention in their history ever too. And it will stop, it just hasn't yet!

I so get that Xenos fans would rather it be some Xenos. That's always brought up with every release. But let's be honest here. 40k is really about Imperium Vs Chaos. That's the heart of it. So yeah, a few more Xenos focused releases would be nice, but I don't really get why anyone is surprised that most kits focus on the protagonist and primary antagonist factions.

Stux wrote:
Nothing original? When was the last time we had a legitimate Rogue Trader we could run in a game?

It's a huge part of the historic lore of the setting that's been almost untouched for decades. That's really exciting!

I understand that not every Chaos player likes the Nurgle aesthetic though, and they've had a lot of attention over the last year. That's fair. But it has been the year that Death Guard got the most attention in their history ever too. And it will stop, it just hasn't yet!

I so get that Xenos fans would rather it be some Xenos. That's always brought up with every release. But let's be honest here. 40k is really about Imperium Vs Chaos. That's the heart of it. So yeah, a few more Xenos focused releases would be nice, but I don't really get why anyone is surprised that most kits focus on the protagonist and primary antagonist factions.

Yeah. As a Xenos player at heart, I'm not expecting anything new for my armies any time soon. Instead, I'm looking to Chapter Approved and the September FAQ for changes to allow the current stuff to work first. As Games Workshop continues to release new models and codexes on sub-factions in the Imperium and Chaos, it's in my own interest to just not buy the new stuff to showcase where my own interests lie.

Stux wrote:
Nothing original? When was the last time we had a legitimate Rogue Trader we could run in a game?

In Warhammer 40,000? 1993, until 2nd edition came out. More recently in Inquisitor.

Yeah the second I saw that most of the miniatures in the box would be more. fething. nurgle I lost 100% of my interest in the product.

Niiru wrote:


Just my opinion of course, I'm sure anyone who plays Imperium or Death Guard is very happy right now (which is unfortunately a pretty large percentage of the playing population). Would be interested to hear other peoples opinions on these.

- The restriction on factions is a Matched Play-only restriction. You're free to take the Rogue Trader team with Eldar or Tau or whatever in Narrative games.

- Based on previous experiences with groups of special characters (e.g. Colonel Schaffer's Last Chancers), the rules for this team is likely to be on the weak-side anyway.

- If you really want to mix them into your Xenos army, but for whatever reason use matched-play rules in friendly games, just ask your opponent if they're OK with it. Unless you're using it to exploit some unforeseen rules interaction, most players I've met will probably be cool with it.

I'll be honest, while I'm not a fan of all Nurgle all the time, these mini 'dexes increases the chance of an Exodite mini 'dex from "you're totally smoking" to "yeah maybe not".

So I can live with it.

 Nazrak wrote:
It’s incredible. GW are releasing stuff at a rate we’ve literally never seen before and people are still finding ways to complain that not every single release is catering exclusively to their individual tastes.

This would be great and true, if the stuff they were releasing weren't for the same army over and over.

If I was an imperium player I'd be very happy. To the point where, as a chaos/xenos player, I'm hugely tempted just to sell everything and change to imperium. Except that would mean my play group would be all imperium, and thus would be pretty boring.

 Deadshot wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Tyranids hiring Rogue Trader mercenaries. That WOULD be original, and uh... amazing.

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

Tau are uniform conformists whose only differences lie in specific tactics of various Septs. We don't need to see Codex Water Caste or Earth Caste as they don't apply to war, and we already have rules to cover Fire, Air and Ethereal Castes.

The main thing with all the Xenos is that even though they have sub-factions, those Sub-factions are not big enough or diverse enough to warrant a seperate book for 1-3 units with little options.

On the other hand, Rogue Traders don't have any current codex that current does them justice and has the diversity to represent them accurately. Inquisition are in a similar situation. Sure, these could surely be condensed into a singular "Imperial Forces" book, but then GW can't sell them as seperate - and they do sell well.

I agree that another Nurgle army is pointless and can be easily rolled into a Death Guard or Nurgle Daemonkin style book, but GW does GW.

Except Tau do, they have all those varied Xenos races that work for/with them in the background. You've got the Demiurg, their Gue'vasa, the Galgs, you could expand out Kroot/Vespids, especially Kroot given their evolution bits, and about ten other races.. Including at least one psyker race (Nicassar)

Where's the beef?

No, seriously where did you hear this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit. Looks like Kill Team stuff. Sky still intact, moving on.

John Blanche inspired minis? I'm in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On a positive downside... There is a lot GW is doing that has me "in". Going to be an expensive winter.

Here is another example of the half hearted “just play imperial or eldar soup” or lose game that 40k has become.

Hopefully they get some sense and ditch all this nonsense that is spiraling out of control.

Or they could just keep releasing specialist games right?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Tyranids hiring Rogue Trader mercenaries. That WOULD be original, and uh... amazing.

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

Tau are uniform conformists whose only differences lie in specific tactics of various Septs. We don't need to see Codex Water Caste or Earth Caste as they don't apply to war, and we already have rules to cover Fire, Air and Ethereal Castes.

The main thing with all the Xenos is that even though they have sub-factions, those Sub-factions are not big enough or diverse enough to warrant a seperate book for 1-3 units with little options.

On the other hand, Rogue Traders don't have any current codex that current does them justice and has the diversity to represent them accurately. Inquisition are in a similar situation. Sure, these could surely be condensed into a singular "Imperial Forces" book, but then GW can't sell them as seperate - and they do sell well.

I agree that another Nurgle army is pointless and can be easily rolled into a Death Guard or Nurgle Daemonkin style book, but GW does GW.

Except Tau do, they have all those varied Xenos races that work for/with them in the background. You've got the Demiurg, their Gue'vasa, the Galgs, you could expand out Kroot/Vespids, especially Kroot given their evolution bits, and about ten other races.. Including at least one psyker race (Nicassar)

All of that is just straw grasping and trying to justify fleshing out a tiny population that in reality accounts for less than 0.0001% of the galaxy's total inhabitants. Tau have multitudes of Xenos, but not so many that they need a whole codex each, or even between them. While I agree that many new units for Tau would be useful, they belong firmly in the main Tau book. Kroot evolutions can easily be depicted by options or elite options representing a "evolved" Kroot. Any codex featuring Tau's auxiliary forces would be a B-Side, fan-pandering money grab minidex like Genestealer Cults is.

I remember back in the day, people screamed daylight robbery when GW actually did release sub-faction rules like Farsight Enclaves and Craftworld Iyanden. It just goes to show that GW are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation because everyone wants something different and only the unhappy are vocal about it.

 darkcloak wrote:

On a positive downside... There is a lot GW is doing that has me "in". Going to be an expensive winter.

Yeah. That's my only 'complaint'. STOP MAKING ME SPEND MONEY, FFS GW!

"This game is about Imperium Vs Chaos; Xenos, you should know better"
"Imperium has many more factions than Xenos; Xenos is the same through and through"

Seriously guys?

Imagine if every faction got treated like Space Marines/Imperials - EVERY Craft World/Hive Fleet/Klan/Sept/Dynasty/etc would have a different codex per subfaction.

Meanwhile, boys who are 99% IDENTICAL, minus the color of their armor, get "different" books. Woo, this one has extra plasma strategems, this one has WolfyWolfs; in this one, the guys are really mad! - It's all the same fething crap in reality; so much so, that you can paint the color of your mini a different color, and have a whole new "army"! [Not that the rules require that...]

I'm sorry, but Xenos deserve love too - they've been continually shafted, and it seems it doesn't matter; the Xenos playerbase is loony (holding out hope for love that'll never come, abused relationship), and the rest of the 40k playerbase is straight bad - "Oh, Xenos are fine, go cry in a corner. We're far more diverse than you, we deserve it!".

Well, yeah; it's easy to be diverse when you're the only faction GW decides to write about - hell, there's a fair about of fluff in the Xenos codecii that are written from an Imperial perspective... which itself is fine.

Feth off, Xenos deserve love too - but that would take away from you, so we'll never get it. I hope you enjoy your Guard+SM vs Traitor Guard vs Chaos SM matchups until the end of time.

What do you think would have shown up in greater number in a word association game for Rogue Trader, Xenos or Chaos? I know in my mind that I always link Rogue Traders with Xenos and having the game be against Chaos is jarring. I think it would have been far more fitting to include any other existing Xenos faction.

For instance, Ork Spaze Boyz pirates would be very appropriate right now. Orks in EOA suits (O for Orkish, of course) aren't all that original but fit with Rogue Traders better and tie into the big Ork release. Mutants would have gone better with a game for the release of the SoB.

It's like having an Indiana Jones story where he fights arms dealers. You can make it work, but considering how well the KGB and ancient aliens went over, it's probably better to just stay with classic pulp influences.

I kinda agree with the nurgle portion of the box. The fact that you have CSM that can be nurgle flavored, DG, Nurgle demons and now what ever the hell these things are supposed to be, it feels a little much. I would rather Xenos getting some love. Like Rogue Traders vs Dark Eldar or Eldar Corsairs.

fe40k wrote:
"This game is about Imperium Vs Chaos; Xenos, you should know better"
"Imperium has many more factions than Xenos; Xenos is the same through and through"

Seriously guys?

Imagine if every faction got treated like Space Marines/Imperials - EVERY Craft World/Hive Fleet/Klan/Sept/Dynasty/etc would have a different codex per subfaction.

Meanwhile, boys who are 99% IDENTICAL, minus the color of their armor, get "different" books. Woo, this one has extra plasma strategems, this one has WolfyWolfs; in this one, the guys are really mad! - It's all the same fething crap in reality; so much so, that you can paint the color of your mini a different color, and have a whole new "army"! [Not that the rules require that...]

I'm sorry, but Xenos deserve love too - they've been continually shafted, and it seems it doesn't matter; the Xenos playerbase is loony (holding out hope for love that'll never come, abused relationship), and the rest of the 40k playerbase is straight bad - "Oh, Xenos are fine, go cry in a corner. We're far more diverse than you, we deserve it!".

Well, yeah; it's easy to be diverse when you're the only faction GW decides to write about - hell, there's a fair about of fluff in the Xenos codecii that are written from an Imperial perspective... which itself is fine.

Feth off, Xenos deserve love too - but that would take away from you, so we'll never get it. I hope you enjoy your Guard+SM vs Traitor Guard vs Chaos SM matchups until the end of time.

Honestly with everyt release I get less and less sympathy for the xenos players. because everytime someone else gets something cool they whine "OMG! HOW DARE SOMEONE GET SOMETHING COOL" it's even worse because they keep insisting on painting the IoM (and Chaos) as "one army" they're not.

The IoM Doesn't deserve this stuff more or less then others, it just happens to HAVE the stuff in the background. and the IoM is also the lens through which we typically see the setting. thus any boxed game will have IoM vs something else.

 darkcloak wrote:
Where's the beef?

No, seriously where did you hear this?


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Edit. Looks like Kill Team stuff. Sky still intact, moving on.

John Blanche inspired minis? I'm in.


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On a positive downside... There is a lot GW is doing that has me "in". Going to be an expensive winter.

Look again. It's not just kill team stuff, they're releasing codex books for 40k for each of those kill teams.

The main protagonist of 40K is the Imperium and it´s antagonist is Chaos. Therefore both factions have received and will receive the most attention from GW. This also means that there will never be a Codex Blood Axes or Codex Goffs. Xenos play in this game only a supporting role. Anybody who hasn´t realized this displays a disturbing lack of knowledge.

Will I buy the RT box? Nah, I already have too many minis which lack paint. But I must confess that those flies and grubs look interesting. Such critters would suit N17 really well.

Niiru wrote:
Look again. It's not just kill team stuff, they're releasing codex books for 40k for each of those kill teams.

It's just kill team stuff as in just a couple of units that also got rules for the main game. It's not like they randomly decided to release a full blown 20 kit line of models.

I'm also all for them making more xenos stuff or updating older kits but unfortunately it's really not where the money is so they're less incentivised to do so. Because the setting has been focused around the imperium vs chaos for so long the vast majority of players play at least one of them so there's less risk in making new models. It costs roughly the same amount to make a mold for a new eldar unit as it does to make a new space marine one. It's too late to really change the focus to xenos after 30 years. They're a publicly traded company so they have to answer to shareholders. Shareholders don't care if a new eldar kit will make the community happy when a new space marine kit will sell 10 times as much for the same monetary investment.

Kill teams does make a more attractive option for them to introduce new xenos units though. Especially when paired in a box with something popular. I suspect the reason for it being nurgle paired with the rogue traders is that it makes it easier to get rogue traders past the investors. Nurgle has proven to be popular so it's much easier to resurrect a "failed" line like rogue traders when paired with something so popular. Investors will see it as failed because it was removed from the game. This opens up the possibility for more rogue trader stuff as well if the box is successful. There will be people who buy the box just for the nurgle aspect of it which will boost the popularity of the rogue trader models in the eyes of investors.

Whereas if they release a box that's necrons and tau it'll be bought by the relatively small necron and tau markets. A tau vs world eaters box, for example, would be much easier to get approval on and has a much bigger market. It'd be a great way to add a few units for one of the races allied with the tau with a lower financial risk than just releasing a stand alone supplement. It'd also let them add some new units for world eaters to either tie them over until they get their own dedicated codex or to show investors and get them wanting a world eaters codex just as much as the community.

 Strg Alt wrote:
The main protagonist of 40K is the Imperium and it´s antagonist is Chaos. Therefore both factions have received and will receive the most attention from GW. This also means that there will never be a Codex Blood Axes or Codex Goffs. Xenos play in this game only a supporting role. Anybody who hasn´t realized this displays a disturbing lack of knowledge.

Will I buy the RT box? Nah, I already have too many minis which lack paint. But I must confess that those flies and grubs look interesting. Such critters would suit N17 really well.

Whilest this is true, mainline Chaos lacks heavily in new releases: Take Havocs, CSM regulars, or the lack of a cultist set, heck even the normal CSM lord could need an update, no instead we get more nurgle, the, excuse me for the pun, allready most bloated army /god we have atm.
Additionally, could we pls see an upgrade on the lost and the damned first? Or renegades and Heretics? Or maybee some more Khornate units that are not superheavies and look ugly af? Heck even a new and improved Noise Marines kit would be something.

Nevermind the fact that most non-mono god legions lack basically everything special in terms of units and variability?
Nothing special for Iron Warriors, nothing special for Alpha Legions (not even their Agents.) Nothing special for Word bearers.
Nurgle isn't the only chaosgod and non nurgle players getting fed up at this point is pretty normal no?

Do chaos players even use CSM or havocks? From what I understand, though am not an expert on all things chaos, those units are overcosted. why get update models for stuff you will never use? People should ask for cheap cultists, obliterators or new noise marines, even new khorn berzerkers could be good for casual Alfa Legion lists.

Karol wrote:
Do chaos players even use CSM or havocks? From what I understand, though am not an expert on all things chaos, those units are overcosted. why get update models for stuff you will never use? People should ask for cheap cultists, obliterators or new noise marines, even new khorn berzerkers could be good for casual Alfa Legion lists.

I use both those things. Could honestly care less about Oblits.

Karol wrote:
Do chaos players even use CSM or havocks? From what I understand, though am not an expert on all things chaos, those units are overcosted. why get update models for stuff you will never use? People should ask for cheap cultists, obliterators or new noise marines, even new khorn berzerkers could be good for casual Alfa Legion lists.

I'd be willing to bet most CSM players use CSMs sure maybe tourny lists are running cultists but let's not pretend those make up the most common lists.
That said CSMs are something I don't see much need for a new kit (be nice sure but it's manageable) havoks would be nice, Maybe cover some bases and release a "horus heresy heavy weapons team" thats basicly a MK V devestator team with asutocannons instead of grav canons.

If it had to be chaos, I would have rather it had been something other than Nurgle. Bloated plague zombie monsters have been done to death this addition. Slaanesh and Khorne really need some love. (yes i know they are getting some kind of release soon but this seems like a missed to opportunity to update some kits rather than put out more of the same.

Mind you I'm a dirty fluff player so... I also have a wave of cultists too so...


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I would love a Havoc kit though! With autocannons yes please!

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If it had to be chaos, I would have rather it had been something other than Nurgle. Bloated plague zombie monsters have been done to death this addition. Slaanesh and Khorne really need some love. (yes i know they are getting some kind of release soon but this seems like a missed to opportunity to update some kits rather than put out more of the same.

The only thing that was "bloated plague zombie monsters" before they announced these new guys was poxwalkers one unit with no wargear options or anything.

 IronBrand wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
If it had to be chaos, I would have rather it had been something other than Nurgle. Bloated plague zombie monsters have been done to death this addition. Slaanesh and Khorne really need some love. (yes i know they are getting some kind of release soon but this seems like a missed to opportunity to update some kits rather than put out more of the same.

The only thing that was "bloated plague zombie monsters" before they announced these new guys was poxwalkers one unit with no wargear options or anything.

I wonder how many of the people complaining about the nurgle stuff are even chaos players?

 Strg Alt wrote:
The main protagonist of 40K is the Imperium and it´s antagonist is Chaos. Therefore both factions have received and will receive the most attention from GW. This also means that there will never be a Codex Blood Axes or Codex Goffs. Xenos play in this game only a supporting role. Anybody who hasn´t realized this displays a disturbing lack of knowledge.

Will I buy the RT box? Nah, I already have too many minis which lack paint. But I must confess that those flies and grubs look interesting. Such critters would suit N17 really well.

Not complaining that they made a new Chaos kill team, complaining that they once again chose Nurgle to focus on, instead of going for ... basically anything else.


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 IronBrand wrote:
The only thing that was "bloated plague zombie monsters" before they announced these new guys was poxwalkers one unit with no wargear options or anything.

Plague Marines, Blightlords, Deathshroud, Plague Drones, Blightspawn, Blightbringer, Plaguebringers, Beasts of Nurgle.... they're all just "take a fairly decent model design, then add bloat and maggots, stick a sassy nurgling on top, call it a day" variations on a very narrow theme. Bloat Drones and Blight Haulers fit the same theme, but are at least fairly decently designed.

Which is fine, it's what fits nurgle, I have not problem with any of it. But Nurgle has more than enough already. This could have been a prime opportunity to release something for generic CSM, like their own version of the Assassinorium. Would have been a far, far better idea.


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BrianDavion wrote:

I wonder how many of the people complaining about the nurgle stuff are even chaos players?

Me, I'm a chaos player, and I started this thread. I'm even a fan of Nurgle and Death Guard.

So when a Nurgle/DG fan is saying "ffs why is there yet another boring set of bloated corpses littering my inbox when there could have been some far more interesting and easy options out there", then you know GW has done fethed up.

You know what - go ahead and look down upon Xenos players for wanting even a fraction of the cool toys/releases that Imperial/Chaos armies get.

Soon enough, you'll just end up with Imperial or Chaos as the two factions; and hell, Chaos is just Imperial+Warp Beasts; so it's all Imperial, all the way.

And when you look back and wonder how it got this way - you'll realize that you voted with your wallets; you wanted this.

You wanted Xenos to be a punching bag for your toys to "victory" over.

...and you'll find that, with time, there won't be any Xenos left. You kicked them all out - of the fluff, and of the game. What's the point of playing, if you never get any love? If you're always the one getting the short end of the stick?

And someone commented that this was the perfect time to bring in Xenos for RT to fight - I think it would have been a perfect time as well to bring in Eldar Corsairs/Ork Freebooters.

Hell, you could have even gone RT vs Imperial Peacekeepers - a twist on the Imperial vs Imperial; without having to bring in Chaos.

But Imperial vs Chaos is easy - just keep pumping out random bloat, quite literally.

I'll take this moment to add to my original post :

My OP was written by the cynical, pessimistic part of me. Which is a pretty big part, and is (unfortunately) often right.

However, now my cynical optimistic side wants to add something!

This -could- just be a sign of things to come. They started on the units they thought would be easy sellers, but it's possible that they plan to release a new kill-team box set every few weeks.

Eldar Corsairs would be a good/easy one. Exodites might be possible but trickier as kill team wouldn't have any room for dinos.

Freebooters would be certainly possible.

Kroot Mercs would be another.

Chaos Assassins / torturers would have been a good one, and it's a shame that we may have had the Chaos entry wasted on Nurgle. Lets hope there ends up being more.

Necrons must have something they could have, but not sure what. Same with tyranids.

But yeh, this -might- just be a sign of what is to come. We can be cautiously hopeful.

It's also just as likely that the next release will be 4 more Imperium-only assassin units or something though.

Niiru wrote:
I'll take this moment to add to my original post :

My OP was written by the cynical, pessimistic part of me. Which is a pretty big part, and is (unfortunately) often right.

However, now my cynical optimistic side wants to add something!

This -could- just be a sign of things to come. They started on the units they thought would be easy sellers, but it's possible that they plan to release a new kill-team box set every few weeks.

Eldar Corsairs would be a good/easy one. Exodites might be possible but trickier as kill team wouldn't have any room for dinos.

Freebooters would be certainly possible.

Kroot Mercs would be another.

Chaos Assassins / torturers would have been a good one, and it's a shame that we may have had the Chaos entry wasted on Nurgle. Lets hope there ends up being more.

Necrons must have something they could have, but not sure what. Same with tyranids.

But yeh, this -might- just be a sign of what is to come. We can be cautiously hopeful.

It's also just as likely that the next release will be 4 more Imperium-only assassin units or something though.

Realistically there's no need to worry about a lack of other chaos stuff yet with the size of the chaos playerbase and number of armies there will be at least one more. It'd be worth worrying if there was say a tau release in a box and it was just another variant of fire warriors for example because there's next to no chance they'd get another release. As long as kill team boxes sell there'll be new releases for it and everyone will get a turn eventually. We just have to hope things are packaged in a way that promotes sales so that there isn't a box that kills any momentum and gets ideas shelved.

Oh. Well I didn't read that far.

Meh. So it's Nurgle. Why is that a shock? Probably a ton of new DG players around now thanks to them getting into a bunch of cheap starter boxes, not to mention EZ builds. A lot of people probably looked at CSM for KT and thought it was too bland, and also that they couldn't use their sweet new DG models.

I hope they give us Zerkers a box and booklet too. I'd play that. I'd play the hell out of that and if anyone wondered why I was allying Khorne to Khorne I'd rest my chainaxe on their nose and say 'brim-ba-da-brim-brim-brim, baby'.

 IronBrand wrote:

Niiru wrote:
I'll take this moment to add to my original post :

My OP was written by the cynical, pessimistic part of me. Which is a pretty big part, and is (unfortunately) often right.

However, now my cynical optimistic side wants to add something!

This -could- just be a sign of things to come. They started on the units they thought would be easy sellers, but it's possible that they plan to release a new kill-team box set every few weeks.

Eldar Corsairs would be a good/easy one. Exodites might be possible but trickier as kill team wouldn't have any room for dinos.

Freebooters would be certainly possible.

Kroot Mercs would be another.

Chaos Assassins / torturers would have been a good one, and it's a shame that we may have had the Chaos entry wasted on Nurgle. Lets hope there ends up being more.

Necrons must have something they could have, but not sure what. Same with tyranids.

But yeh, this -might- just be a sign of what is to come. We can be cautiously hopeful.

It's also just as likely that the next release will be 4 more Imperium-only assassin units or something though.

Realistically there's no need to worry about a lack of other chaos stuff yet with the size of the chaos playerbase and number of armies there will be at least one more. It'd be worth worrying if there was say a tau release in a box and it was just another variant of fire warriors for example because there's next to no chance they'd get another release. As long as kill team boxes sell there'll be new releases for it and everyone will get a turn eventually. We just have to hope things are packaged in a way that promotes sales so that there isn't a box that kills any momentum and gets ideas shelved.

Isn't there an upcoming Slaanish vs Khorne game?

I have no xenos models and even I think xenos players desperately need some model love. It is coming, though, at least for orks. I wouldn't doubt we'd see some better eldar next year as well.

I would play Tau if they had some kind of cool melee suit. I like their asthetic. Gunline style play seems incredibly boring to me though.

And regarding people complaining about space Marines having too many codexes: I agree!

All these people complaining about "no love for Xenos"... do know about the Speed Freeks box, right? And the new Aberrants coming out later this year?

Like, I really feel like this is the least appropriate time to be complaining about Xenos getting no love, unless you're a pointy eared degenerate that doesn't care about any of the other factions.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
All these people complaining about "no love for Xenos"... do know about the Speed Freeks box, right? And the new Aberrants coming out later this year?

Like, I really feel like this is the least appropriate time to be complaining about Xenos getting no love, unless you're a pointy eared degenerate that doesn't care about any of the other factions.

yeah but Imperium's getting something too so.. they gotta complain!

Maybe a lot of people prefer the Nurgle aetheric though? Maybe that's why they keep releasing it, because it's going well.

And let's not make it political, that's a whole rabbit hole that we don't need on Dakka (yet again). It's not about that.


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Also the reason mainline Chaos is lacking in releases (in my opinion) is because they aren't ready to release Chaos Primaris yet. But they'll get there for sure.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
All these people complaining about "no love for Xenos"... do know about the Speed Freeks box, right? And the new Aberrants coming out later this year?

Like, I really feel like this is the least appropriate time to be complaining about Xenos getting no love, unless you're a pointy eared degenerate that doesn't care about any of the other factions.

At this point in time nobody can say that they aren't receiving something. Chaos Demons, Chaos Marines, Non-SM Imperial Factions (Rogue Traders, Admech, SoB), Space Marines, Xenos (Orks, Genestealer Cultists), all are receiving miniatures in the present or in the near- close future (5-8 months from now).

But people has still the mentality of 5 years back where model releases where 6 months appart minimun.

Well, I agree and disagree on the Nurgle popularity. GW seem to produce more stuff the more something sells. However, they don't seem to calculate it relative to the products they already have. They continually release more and more space marine stuff because Space Marines sell the most - but don't take it relative to the fact Space Marines make up the largest section of the range and also the box sets. Similarly they keep releasing Imperial stuff, not considering that the Imperium is more than half the entire range.

Nurgle is likely getting the focus because of how well it sold, but they are not taking into consideration that Nurgle is the box set baddy, so sells more, and releasing plastic models for another Primarch, plus new kits and FINALLY a plastic replacement for the old metal/Finecast kits (which lead to many either replacing old models or finally starting after being discouraged by metal/finecast).

Nurgle is just the easiest to accommodate in a Gellar field accident.

Maybe Tzeentch to represent rampant mutations, but that would just be the same bird feathers and tentacles.

Khorne would be bloodthirsty Possessed. And Slaanesh? Well... Rhymes with Grape.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Nurgle is just the easiest to accommodate in a Gellar field accident.

Maybe Tzeentch to represent rampant mutations, but that would just be the same bird feathers and tentacles.

Khorne would be bloodthirsty Possessed. And Slaanesh? Well... Rhymes with Grape.

Crepe?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Nurgle is just the easiest to accommodate in a Gellar field accident.

Maybe Tzeentch to represent rampant mutations, but that would just be the same bird feathers and tentacles.

Khorne would be bloodthirsty Possessed. And Slaanesh? Well... Rhymes with Grape.

These kind of associations are responsible for the lack of new Slaanesh minis. There are numerous other war crimes to consider such as mass executions or mutilations but everybody in the 40K universe get´s a free pass except the minions of the Dark Prince.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Nurgle is just the easiest to accommodate in a Gellar field accident.

Maybe Tzeentch to represent rampant mutations, but that would just be the same bird feathers and tentacles.

Khorne would be bloodthirsty Possessed. And Slaanesh? Well... Rhymes with Grape.

While sex is a part of Slaanesh's wheel house, cutting it down to just that does not do the background justice. Slannesh is about excess and pushing the limits, not just orgies. That said, i've always found it odd that people are fine with mass murder but show a model with a boob and people come down like a hammer.

Yeah, its unfortunate that Slaanesh has been incessantly meme'd to be nothing but sex and drugs.

Is that so really wrong though? Lets try to find admirable attributes to fictional daemonic entities.

Posession of Slaanesh PC: The Gellarfield breaks and suddenly, all the crew members enticed by the sweet perfumed unearthly scents in the air, minstrel vigorously on their electric violins, then try to better themselves in all learning by reading a really big book.

Armoxl'a, the former deck porter, has her head spin 360 degrees and after the bones snap back into place with a sickening crunch, she exclaims
"Instead of being all "For the Emperor, I'm going to express my willingness for ambitions and self expressive purpose by working out more, and continuing a higher education".

IMHO it's pretty cool that GW are putting out rules for people to use miniatures from a skirmish expansion in their main 40k armies if they'd like.

 Strg Alt wrote:

I agree. Choosing Nurgle for another release run was dumb and shows lack of imagination. It is just more of the same. I was hoping that they would show Slaanesh some love but he/she is sidelined for the rest of GW´s existence.

Or maybe they just wanted to do a Kill Team expansion that was humans vs zombies in space? Nurgle makes the most sense if that's the basic idea. Despite my username, I haven't played any DG in 8th ed so far or picked up (many ) miniatures from the new range, but I'm excited about getting stuff to run a game in the vein of Mayhem At Lesotho 2-12. I'm also glad the humans are something different from the mainline Imperium armies.

As for GW showing Xenos some spaceship based skirmish love, maybe they'll re-release Space Hulk again

 Arachnofiend wrote:
All these people complaining about "no love for Xenos"... do know about the Speed Freeks box, right? And the new Aberrants coming out later this year?

Like, I really feel like this is the least appropriate time to be complaining about Xenos getting no love, unless you're a pointy eared degenerate that doesn't care about any of the other factions.

All these people who know about the Speed Freeks box... do know that Orks have gotten no love for the last 18 years, right? It's not like they even specifically called that out in the announcement where they previewed "Dakka Dakka Dakka".

Second, it's not like the ONE time that Xenos got three codecii announced in a row [Necrons/Tyranids/Dark Eldar] (the only time with a non-imperial dex in the lineup immediately); they just ALSO had to announce "Look at this new Imperial Titan model!" - couldn't let them have one moment in the sun, one announcement free from Imperium or Chaos. Just wait a day, then make a new announcement.

No, always need to have something for an Imperial.

Honestly - count the number of Imperial/Chaos releases, then compare them to the amount of Xenos releases. The difference is staggering.

fe40k wrote:


No, always need to have something for an Imperial.

Honestly - count the number of Imperial/Chaos releases, then compare them to the amount of Xenos releases. The difference is staggering.

Because Imperium alone has more factions than Xenos, or the same if you mix all flavours of SM into one? Space Marines (I'll even be a good guy to us Xenos and put all SM here), Adeptus Mechanicus, Adeptus Custodes, Imperial Knights, Imperial Guard, Sisters of Battle, Grey Knights (They are different enough), Inquisition (I'll put SoS and Assasins here) vs Dark Eldar, Craftworld Eldar, Ynnari, Orks, Genestealer Cultists, Tyranids, Necrons, Tau.
9 factions vs 9 factions. Add another 2 for Chaos (Demons and CSM)
Thedifference in number is bigger if you fact each faction as a army with a Codex/Index because they you add Dark Angels, Deatwatch, Blood Angels, Space Wolves to Imperium and Thousand Sons and Detah Guard to Chaos.

My biggest and primary army is Tau, but is clear that:
-The new way of GW for doing releases is making big thematic releases: We had Primaris Space Marines, then Death Guard, then Nurgle Daemons, then Adeptus Custodes, Imperial Knights, now we'll have Orks and Genestealer Cults.
-Imperial players outnumber Xenos player by a great margin. Just Space Marine players of all flavours are much more numerous than all Xenos players combined. You can't fault GW for making releases for whats sells best.

The reality is that Nu-GW is putting out a enormous number of products in ultra-fast way, bot for 40k, AoS, and now LoTR, Necromunda, Adeptus Titanicus, Blood Bowl, etc... and even with that marathon they are doing, they have been adding a ton of variety to their releases.
Before people complained about "Is always Space Marines!". Now, the complaint is "Is always Imperials!". The reality is that no matter what people would complaint that it is not their thing. Get over it, people, you'll have your turn. Even SoB will have theirs next year.

 nurgle5 wrote:
IMHO it's pretty cool that GW are putting out rules for people to use miniatures from a skirmish expansion in their main 40k armies if they'd like.

 Strg Alt wrote:

I agree. Choosing Nurgle for another release run was dumb and shows lack of imagination. It is just more of the same. I was hoping that they would show Slaanesh some love but he/she is sidelined for the rest of GW´s existence.

Or maybe they just wanted to do a Kill Team expansion that was humans vs zombies in space? Nurgle makes the most sense if that's the basic idea. Despite my username, I haven't played any DG in 8th ed so far or picked up (many ) miniatures from the new range, but I'm excited about getting stuff to run a game in the vein of Mayhem At Lesotho 2-12. I'm also glad the humans are something different from the mainline Imperium armies.

As for GW showing Xenos some spaceship based skirmish love, maybe they'll re-release Space Hulk again

There are already zombies in the DG roster. Just release several different space ship board tiles like they did for N17 (Badzone-Delta 7) and you are ready to go. There was absolutely no need to introduce another nurgle faction to the setting.
I own a nurgle CSM, renegade and daemon (proxied with Doom demons) force and considered purchasing the new DG codex. But the inability of their terminators to equip power fists thus invalidating my vintage 2nd chaos models and stupid name conventions for units and weapons put me off. And the icing of the cake is the atrocious new grinning aesthetic. Who thought that was a great idea? At first the Gellerpox incident and the resulting mutations on the space ship reminded me a little bit of Dead Space and the truly horrific necromorphs. But the Gellerpox mutants are just inferior in every way when compared to the video game monsters.

 Strg Alt wrote:

There are already zombies in the DG roster. Just release several different space ship board tiles like they did for N17 (Badzone-Delta 7) and you are ready to go. There was absolutely no need to introduce another nurgle faction to the setting.
I own a nurgle CSM, renegade and daemon (proxied with Doom demons) force and considered purchasing the new DG codex. But the inability of their terminators to equip power fists thus invalidating my vintage 2nd chaos models and stupid name conventions for units and weapons put me off. And the icing of the cake is the atrocious new grinning aesthetic. Who thought that was a great idea? At first the Gellerpox incident and the resulting mutations on the space ship reminded me a little bit of Dead Space and the truly horrific necromorphs. But the Gellerpox mutants are just inferior in every way when compared to the video game monsters.

So would you be happier if GW just reboxed the 13 or so poxwalker miniatures that exist already for this? They're new miniatures for a skirmish game expansion that GW almost certainly decided to release 40k rules for as an afterthought, I think it's a bit odd that people are talking about them as proper 40k releases.

As for the rictus grinning thing, it's fair enough if you don't like it, but I thought it was quite a good way of splitting the difference between Nurgle's jovial personality and the rotten physical features of his followers.

 nurgle5 wrote:
As for the rictus grinning thing, it's fair enough if you don't like it, but I thought it was quite a good way of splitting the difference between Nurgle's jovial personality and the rotten physical features of his followers.

Personally I don't like the rictus grin on things that still have a mind of their own. I think suits poxwalkers but I feel like someone like felthius should have either a more sinister or more jovial grin. With his current grin he looks like he's mindless to me.

 IronBrand wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:
As for the rictus grinning thing, it's fair enough if you don't like it, but I thought it was quite a good way of splitting the difference between Nurgle's jovial personality and the rotten physical features of his followers.

Personally I don't like the rictus grin on things that still have a mind of their own. I think suits poxwalkers but I feel like someone like felthius should have either a more sinister or more jovial grin. With his current grin he looks like he's mindless to me.

Yeah, that chap has a bit of a weird looking head in general -- reminds me of the goombas from the Mario Bros. movie :

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

So all those new Ork models, the new Chaos Space Marines coming in Blackstone, the new Necron Cryptek, the Ynnead models for Eldar, the new Genstealer Cult kits from Tooth and Fang, all count as "imperials for eternity" ?


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fe40k wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
All these people complaining about "no love for Xenos"... do know about the Speed Freeks box, right? And the new Aberrants coming out later this year?

Like, I really feel like this is the least appropriate time to be complaining about Xenos getting no love, unless you're a pointy eared degenerate that doesn't care about any of the other factions.

All these people who know about the Speed Freeks box... do know that Orks have gotten no love for the last 18 years, right? It's not like they even specifically called that out in the announcement where they previewed "Dakka Dakka Dakka".

Second, it's not like the ONE time that Xenos got three codecii announced in a row [Necrons/Tyranids/Dark Eldar] (the only time with a non-imperial dex in the lineup immediately); they just ALSO had to announce "Look at this new Imperial Titan model!" - couldn't let them have one moment in the sun, one announcement free from Imperium or Chaos. Just wait a day, then make a new announcement.

No, always need to have something for an Imperial.

Honestly - count the number of Imperial/Chaos releases, then compare them to the amount of Xenos releases. The difference is staggering.

Sex Sells.

 Togusa wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

So all those new Ork models, the new Chaos Space Marines coming in Blackstone, the new Necron Cryptek, the Ynnead models for Eldar, the new Genstealer Cult kits from Tooth and Fang, all count as "imperials for eternity" ?

The ork models aren't out yet, and so far there's only like 3 new models. That's 3 new models, replacing models that haven't had an update in 20 years.

The Ynnari models were new, that was pretty good. That was last year. How many new Imperial models were released since then?

Genestealer cults run with Imperial Guard, so you could easily argue that they're yet another ally option for IG players lol. Though I like Genestealer Cults, have done for many years, so I'm not going to complain about those.

So yeh, ok, GW have released a handful of non-Imperial models. Some of them were even pretty good. But that doesn't counter the fact that they've released way more new models/units/rules for the Imperium. It'll always be the case, because the Imperium is so popular, just a shame they can't balance things a little better.


Also... Chaos in Blackstone? I haven't seen that yet, and when I search for it on WC it doesn't seem to come up with any articles? I must be missing something.

Niiru wrote:

 Togusa wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Niiru wrote:

I dunno, maybe I'm just jaded and cynical, but I saw the Rogue Trader models and thought "awesome, GW could release these as a new codex supplement of mercenaries, and have them available to every army! That would be amazing and original!".

Haha, well could say the same for Orks too, the idea isn't perfect. But it's 999% more perfect than GW's plan of just releasing nothing but new Imperial units for eternity.

So all those new Ork models, the new Chaos Space Marines coming in Blackstone, the new Necron Cryptek, the Ynnead models for Eldar, the new Genstealer Cult kits from Tooth and Fang, all count as "imperials for eternity" ?

The ork models aren't out yet, and so far there's only like 3 new models. That's 3 new models, replacing models that haven't had an update in 20 years.

The Ynnari models were new, that was pretty good. That was last year. How many new Imperial models were released since then?

Genestealer cults run with Imperial Guard, so you could easily argue that they're yet another ally option for IG players lol. Though I like Genestealer Cults, have done for many years, so I'm not going to complain about those.

So yeh, ok, GW have released a handful of non-Imperial models. Some of them were even pretty good. But that doesn't counter the fact that they've released way more new models/units/rules for the Imperium. It'll always be the case, because the Imperium is so popular, just a shame they can't balance things a little better.


Also... Chaos in Blackstone? I haven't seen that yet, and when I search for it on WC it doesn't seem to come up with any articles? I must be missing something.

Check the NOVA thread, in the Q&A it was revealed that the old Chaos Marine sculpts will be replaced with new ones. We get three in the BL game, and the other 7 will be in the stand alone kit a little later. We have a huge AoS/40K crossover between Khorne and Slannesh coming soon that will undoubtedly bring Fulgrim, Angron and codexes for World Eaters and Emperors Children out and into the fray, along side a host of new deamon models.

As for the Orks, I believe there is a new Gaz and Boys coming? We also saw the release of Death Guard, and it looks like in the GW preview pictures we've seen what are most-likely new tyranid kits.

Also, again, Sex sells.

We got a Rouge Trader gang usable in 40K.

While, yes this is a tiny bit Imperial/Nurgle overkill, it gives me hope.

Exodites
Kroot Merc army
Dare I say, Squats?

 cuda1179 wrote:
We got a Rouge Trader gang usable in 40K.

While, yes this is a tiny bit Imperial/Nurgle overkill, it gives me hope.

Exodites
Kroot Merc army
Dare I say, Squats?

I think Squats might be a little unlikely... possible, but unlikely. But then, they could base the models on the Kharadrons, so they may do it because it'll be easy...


Kroot Mercs I think are likely.

Exodites I'm not sure, because they are more 'Eldar on dinosaurs etc' kind of a thing, and the kill teams are more single-character infantry based. An individual exodite Eldar person would be very similar (pretty much identical) to a craftworld one, other than throwing rocks instead of grenades.

Corsairs though, I think are possible. A corsair captain and a band of reaver pirates would fit the kill team standard quite nicely, and you get some cool fluffy characters out of it too.

Heretics and Renegades could be done well too.

Impeial stuffs popularity is a merry-go-round , it sells well, so it gets more attention which only makes it sell better, which only gives it even more attention - fading the rest into a bit of a limbo and dooming potentially interesting ideas like the mercenaries into obscurity.

I'd rather see more non-imperial and non-chaos stuff. Hopefully this Rogue Trader encourages GW to try more varied things in the future. Like em Squats, or mercs, or Exodites, or aliens uplifted by Triarch Pretorians, or Hrud, or Tarellians… at least something that's not some shade of power armored human.

Little update after reading the new codices for the Starstriders and the Gellerpox.

Pretty much as expected. Nurgly nurgle stuff for the gellerpox, with nothing that stands out as particularly good or interesting. Standard fare for a non-imperial codex.

Starstriders? Well I'm only on the first few pages, but I immediately see that they can take any imperial transport they wish, just like a new Inquisition squad. Which immediately gives them infinitely more potential than the gellerpox does.

Will have to go through the rules to see if any of them are worth taking, but they seem to be at least as good as the gellerpox, but gellerpox are footslogging and therefore slow and easy to pick off.

At first glance, the Imperials once again have gotten the better end of the stick.

Second glance though, their units are flimsier. Toughness 3 with a 5+ invulnerable. So fairly decent for standard humans. Not expensive either. I do think the ability to take any transport still brings them ahead, but maybe that's because I was already a fan of the Inquisition retinue from back in the good old days when that was a thing.

I am sorry but in what world in 8th does the ability to take any transport, mean the Imperials got the better end of the deal?

Chimera: Overpriced IFV, better yet, at it's basic pricepoint you can field a charadon, a medium battletank that is more durable and field smore dakka.

Rhino: Overpriced APC.

Drop pods: Overpriced, period, (A moment of respect from a heretic astarte to you loyalists out there)

Land Raider: price of knight, no capability close to a knight, not even funny at that price point. Not even usefull as an assult vehicle since moving into 1" makes it unusefull. Huray for 300pts of your army doing nothing.

Valkyries: Alpha strike capability, OK decentish, do you have a unit for an alpha strike? Ehhhh debatable. Also again atleast 120 pts+ for the most basic loadout. Atleast it flies.

Razorback: APC with guns. Still overpriced but more workable then the other stuff.

Summa sumarum: Huray you can take transports, to bad 80% are useless since they are groundbound, overpriced and or terribly armed.

I was with you till you started crapping on the Valk and the Razorback. Those units are fine. Hell even the Rhino is alright. Not that I'm saying Imperium got the better thing I dunno, but you're really trying to downplay what they did get.

 Togusa wrote:

As for the Orks, I believe there is a new Gaz and Boys coming? We also saw the release of Death Guard, and it looks like in the GW preview pictures we've seen what are most-likely new tyranid kits.

Source for either new Boys, new Ghaz or new Nid models?

 SHUPPET wrote:
I was with you till you started crapping on the Valk and the Razorback. Those units are fine. Hell even the Rhino is alright. Not that I'm saying Imperium got the better thing I dunno, but you're really trying to downplay what they did get.

I actually didn't on the valkyrie. I would not dare for i use them regularly.
Fact remains that you need a unit capable of posing a threat to get max use out of it and I don't think that they have one that can be used for such a strike. Well a good one at that.

The Rhino at over 50pts is not well placed. It does not Fly and it is not durable enough, dakka is also non existent on it. Also why pick a rhino when razorbacks exist?

Razorback: decent but still to much pts invested in it. (durability is also not really there but atleast the Dakka options. The smaller transport capacity is however potentially an issue, especially since t3 models generally come in bigger numbers and armored fist units are now normally 2 squads with as much special weaponry as possible which don't fit into one razorback, also theres the issue that you want to move the content of the Razorback but not the Razorback itself since -1 to hit applies.)So usability for the agents seem limitited no?


Those are the remaining 20% of somewhat decent transports.
And both the Razorback aswell as the Rhino can't Fly, are not durable and either have too small transport capacity (for a t3 army) or irrelevant weaponry.

I play nearly all of those vehicles, compared to other transports imperial ones (and or Chaos ones suck) comparativly to the only regularly fielded transports which, surprise, have Fly and are darkeldar . Which are open for passengers to fire out off them and have the units good enough for such a playstyle and are faster overall whilest beeing cheap.

8th generally has severly gimped transports and it does not help that you need Fly to stop beeing tarpitted and useless for the better armed transports.

If the next ca fixes transports ( especially Ork ones) then yes that turns into a plus, but so long that does not happen so long i don't particulary view it as such a huge advantage.

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am sorry but in what world in 8th does the ability to take any transport, mean the Imperials got the better end of the deal?

Chimera: Overpriced IFV, better yet, at it's basic pricepoint you can field a charadon, a medium battletank that is more durable and field smore dakka.

Rhino: Overpriced APC.

Drop pods: Overpriced, period, (A moment of respect from a heretic astarte to you loyalists out there)

Land Raider: price of knight, no capability close to a knight, not even funny at that price point. Not even usefull as an assult vehicle since moving into 1" makes it unusefull. Huray for 300pts of your army doing nothing.

Valkyries: Alpha strike capability, OK decentish, do you have a unit for an alpha strike? Ehhhh debatable. Also again atleast 120 pts+ for the most basic loadout. Atleast it flies.

Razorback: APC with guns. Still overpriced but more workable then the other stuff.

Summa sumarum: Huray you can take transports, to bad 80% are useless since they are groundbound, overpriced and or terribly armed.

List of transports the Geller can take - none.

List of transports Chaos can take - Rhino, Land Raider. So less than Imperials have, and both awful according to you. (Actually Rhinos are fine, they're only outmatched by Razorbacks really if you don't need the capacity, but again only Imperials have that extra option).

Also, manoeuvrability is a big deal. Being able to take even a bad transport is an advantage. Not only that though, but you don't even need to with the Starstriders, as they can all be put into reserves for a single CP. So the entire transport debate is immediately moot.

Gellerpox, while not having transports, benefit heavily from the Nurgle keyword and can benefit from all the same stuff any other Nurgle unit can in a Nurgle army. So that's pretty decent mechanically.

That said, the access to transports for the RT group is handy because that means you can use a detachment of them to bring just about anything you need into an Imperial list. Running Space Marines and want a Valk or two without getting Guard? You can take these guys! Heck, if you want to go maximum over-transport pair the RT with Inquisition and load up on the best transports in the game to support the okay units you'll stuff inside of them for cheap.

 Stux wrote:


Maybe a lot of people prefer the Nurgle aetheric though?

Autocorrect has found the AoS player

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Maybe a lot of people prefer the Nurgle aetheric though?

Autocorrect has found the AoS player

Hah! I think my post history will discredit that somewhat :p

(There are a couple of posts over there from a time I was planning to start, but it never ended up happening)

I wouldn't call them codecies, since they're just sort of little splatbooks to use the new minis in full 40k, and I would certainly call them original. I'm happy to see rogue traders, and am kind of hoping they'll grow into a full lineup.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Gellerpox, while not having transports, benefit heavily from the Nurgle keyword and can benefit from all the same stuff any other Nurgle unit can in a Nurgle army. So that's pretty decent mechanically.

That said, the access to transports for the RT group is handy because that means you can use a detachment of them to bring just about anything you need into an Imperial list. Running Space Marines and want a Valk or two without getting Guard? You can take these guys! Heck, if you want to go maximum over-transport pair the RT with Inquisition and load up on the best transports in the game to support the okay units you'll stuff inside of them for cheap.

There's not that many transports I'd pay for a RT kill team to add one of to my list.

It would have to be from a faction I don't already have in my list/want in my list, and it would be a transport dedicated to being a tank. The only one I can come up with is Razorback, but even then they're going to need some SM around to buff them. Maybe a flamethrower Immolator?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I wouldn't call them codecies, since they're just sort of little splatbooks to use the new minis in full 40k, and I would certainly call them original. I'm happy to see rogue traders, and am kind of hoping they'll grow into a full lineup.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Gellerpox, while not having transports, benefit heavily from the Nurgle keyword and can benefit from all the same stuff any other Nurgle unit can in a Nurgle army. So that's pretty decent mechanically.

That said, the access to transports for the RT group is handy because that means you can use a detachment of them to bring just about anything you need into an Imperial list. Running Space Marines and want a Valk or two without getting Guard? You can take these guys! Heck, if you want to go maximum over-transport pair the RT with Inquisition and load up on the best transports in the game to support the okay units you'll stuff inside of them for cheap.

There's not that many transports I'd pay for a RT kill team to add one of to my list.

It would have to be from a faction I don't already have in my list/want in my list, and it would be a transport dedicated to being a tank. The only one I can come up with is Razorback, but even then they're going to need some SM around to buff them. Maybe a flamethrower Immolator?

What about FW transports?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I wouldn't call them codecies, since they're just sort of little splatbooks to use the new minis in full 40k, and I would certainly call them original. I'm happy to see rogue traders, and am kind of hoping they'll grow into a full lineup.

The gellerpox are just wholly unoriginal in every respect.

The Rogue Traders are fine in themselves, the originality is that they are yet another imperial upgrade option among a plethora of imperial options. Inquisition-lite. Assassinorium mk2 (only not as good). If they had made them mercenaries available to everyone, then that would have been original.

Rogue traders might have a looser rule book, but they still have to be able to answer to an inquisitor or other higher ups. Allying with Drukhari or Orks would be a Bad Thing for a Rogue Trader to get involved with.

 Strg Alt wrote:


There are already zombies in the DG roster. Just release several different space ship board tiles like they did for N17 (Badzone-Delta 7) and you are ready to go. There was absolutely no need to introduce another nurgle faction to the setting.
I own a nurgle CSM, renegade and daemon (proxied with Doom demons) force and considered purchasing the new DG codex. But the inability of their terminators to equip power fists thus invalidating my vintage 2nd chaos models and stupid name conventions for units and weapons put me off. And the icing of the cake is the atrocious new grinning aesthetic. Who thought that was a great idea? At first the Gellerpox incident and the resulting mutations on the space ship reminded me a little bit of Dead Space and the truly horrific necromorphs. But the Gellerpox mutants are just inferior in every way when compared to the video game monsters.

"New grinning aesthetic"? Did you actually do any research before making that claim?

Hell, there's a massive grinning GUO on the front cover of Lost and the Damned (plus the second from right guy).

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am sorry but in what world in 8th does the ability to take any transport, mean the Imperials got the better end of the deal?

Chimera: Overpriced IFV, better yet, at it's basic pricepoint you can field a charadon, a medium battletank that is more durable and field smore dakka.

Rhino: Overpriced APC.

Drop pods: Overpriced, period, (A moment of respect from a heretic astarte to you loyalists out there)

Land Raider: price of knight, no capability close to a knight, not even funny at that price point. Not even usefull as an assult vehicle since moving into 1" makes it unusefull. Huray for 300pts of your army doing nothing.

Valkyries: Alpha strike capability, OK decentish, do you have a unit for an alpha strike? Ehhhh debatable. Also again atleast 120 pts+ for the most basic loadout. Atleast it flies.

Razorback: APC with guns. Still overpriced but more workable then the other stuff.

Summa sumarum: Huray you can take transports, to bad 80% are useless since they are groundbound, overpriced and or terribly armed.

Great list, except you left out the best transport the Imperium have. The Repressor. T7, 12W, 3+/6++, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter x2, and 6 models can shoot out of it, even if it's locked in assault, which it will be because it's pretty decent in assault against infantry with 9x S6 AP-1 WS5+ attacks.

Also seem to be missing the Repulsor, Corvus and Stormraven. Or am I missing g something?

Niiru wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I wouldn't call them codecies, since they're just sort of little splatbooks to use the new minis in full 40k, and I would certainly call them original. I'm happy to see rogue traders, and am kind of hoping they'll grow into a full lineup.

The gellerpox are just wholly unoriginal in every respect.

The Rogue Traders are fine in themselves, the originality is that they are yet another imperial upgrade option among a plethora of imperial options. Inquisition-lite. Assassinorium mk2 (only not as good). If they had made them mercenaries available to everyone, then that would have been original.

except rogue traders aren't "original" they've been in the background forever. we get it man, you want allies for your Orks, Tau whatever. but don't expect GW to utterly rape the background for it. Rogue Traders are not an original idea no

BrianDavion wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I wouldn't call them codecies, since they're just sort of little splatbooks to use the new minis in full 40k, and I would certainly call them original. I'm happy to see rogue traders, and am kind of hoping they'll grow into a full lineup.

The gellerpox are just wholly unoriginal in every respect.

The Rogue Traders are fine in themselves, the originality is that they are yet another imperial upgrade option among a plethora of imperial options. Inquisition-lite. Assassinorium mk2 (only not as good). If they had made them mercenaries available to everyone, then that would have been original.

except rogue traders aren't "original" they've been in the background forever. we get it man, you want allies for your Orks, Tau whatever. but don't expect GW to utterly rape the background for it. Rogue Traders are not an original idea no

I heard there was a game named after them that came out 30 years ago. Not sure if it's true though.

BrianDavion wrote:

Niiru wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I wouldn't call them codecies, since they're just sort of little splatbooks to use the new minis in full 40k, and I would certainly call them original. I'm happy to see rogue traders, and am kind of hoping they'll grow into a full lineup.

The gellerpox are just wholly unoriginal in every respect.

The Rogue Traders are fine in themselves, the originality is that they are yet another imperial upgrade option among a plethora of imperial options. Inquisition-lite. Assassinorium mk2 (only not as good). If they had made them mercenaries available to everyone, then that would have been original.

except rogue traders aren't "original" they've been in the background forever. we get it man, you want allies for your Orks, Tau whatever. but don't expect GW to utterly rape the background for it. Rogue Traders are not an original idea no

Sigh, missing the point so hard it's a spoon.

 deviantduck wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
I am sorry but in what world in 8th does the ability to take any transport, mean the Imperials got the better end of the deal?

Chimera: Overpriced IFV, better yet, at it's basic pricepoint you can field a charadon, a medium battletank that is more durable and field smore dakka.

Rhino: Overpriced APC.

Drop pods: Overpriced, period, (A moment of respect from a heretic astarte to you loyalists out there)

Land Raider: price of knight, no capability close to a knight, not even funny at that price point. Not even usefull as an assult vehicle since moving into 1" makes it unusefull. Huray for 300pts of your army doing nothing.

Valkyries: Alpha strike capability, OK decentish, do you have a unit for an alpha strike? Ehhhh debatable. Also again atleast 120 pts+ for the most basic loadout. Atleast it flies.

Razorback: APC with guns. Still overpriced but more workable then the other stuff.

Summa sumarum: Huray you can take transports, to bad 80% are useless since they are groundbound, overpriced and or terribly armed.

Great list, except you left out the best transport the Imperium have. The Repressor. T7, 12W, 3+/6++, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter x2, and 6 models can shoot out of it, even if it's locked in assault, which it will be because it's pretty decent in assault against infantry with 9x S6 AP-1 WS5+ attacks.

Taurox prime's have pretty respectable shooting for their price point as well, basic loadout gets you 2 hotshot volley gun's (Heavy 4, S4, AP-2, 1D each) and the taurox battle cannon (D6 shots, S7, AP-1, D3 damage) for 122 points. Alternatively you can switch out the volley guns for autocannons (+10 points), change the battle cannon to a Gatling cannon (-8 pt's for Heavy 20 S4 1D shots) or a missile launcher (+22 pt's for what is basically 2 missile launcher's. Oh and you can add a heavy stubber for 4 pt's or a storm bolter for 2 pt's if you want to, all this shooting at BS3+ as well.

(All the +/- points bit is in relation to the stated basic loadout cost of 122 pt's if that was causing any confusion.

So are either of the additions at all competitive?