The Inquisition has power over all subjects of the Imperium.........save for the Emperor.

But now Guilliman is the de facto ruler of the Imperium in his father's stead can the Inquisition claim power over him? After all Space Marine Chapters are notorious for being on the periphery of the Inquisition's remit...

I don't think that an Inquisitor can tell a Primarch what to do.

That said, I don't think anyone in the Imperium can tell a Primarch what to.

 Corennus wrote:
The Inquisition has power over all subjects of the Imperium.........save for the Emperor.

But now Guilliman is the de facto ruler of the Imperium in his father's stead can the Inquisition claim power over him? After all Space Marine Chapters are notorious for being on the periphery of the Inquisition's remit...

An Inquisitor does not have power over other Inquisitors or the enthroned Emperor. I also think the Custodes are beyond their remit.

In reality any decent Inquisitor always needs to consider the political side of things when they interact with powerful individuals in the Imperium - after all they may have their Inquisitorial contacts.

An Inquisitor trying to exert any power over RG needs to have:

1) The backing of plenty of his or her colleagues - otherwise your rivals will line up to use it an excuse to stab you in the back.
2) A good enough reason that all the various power blocks already aligned with him won't block it (he has the Church, a large portion of the Mechanicus and the Astartes as well as the Guard)
3) The nerve and will to confront the living Son of God - worth remembering many Inquisitors are still true believers.

 Corennus wrote:
The Inquisition has power over all subjects of the Imperium.........save for the Emperor.

But now Guilliman is the de facto ruler of the Imperium in his father's stead can the Inquisition claim power over him? After all Space Marine Chapters are notorious for being on the periphery of the Inquisition's remit...

The short answer.. no almost certainly not.

The long answer... The power of the Inqusition is a pretty solid case study of De Jure vs De Facto,

De Jure, latin for "In Law" describes something that is legally the case even if if it's not something that is actually done. De Facto means "in fact" using the IoM as an example, De Jure the ruler of the Imperium of man is the Emperor, De Facto it's the high lords headed by Gulliman. To use a example from the contemporary UK... De Jure, the Queen may dissolve Parliment whenever she bloody well wishes, de facto she may only dissolve it at the reccomendation of the Prime Minister and or in the aftermath of a lost confidance vote. Weather or not the law extends to Gulliman in the case of Inqusitorial oversight is pretty much irrelevant because a Inqusitor would have to gather the support to go after Gulliman (and his considerable support base) to be able to exercise that power.

So yeah in short, Gulliman is beyond the Inqusitor, whatever the situation on paper is, no Inqusitor could openly move against him

Guilliman is a High Lord so technically the Inquisition has jurisdiction over him. Though in practice applying that jurisdiction might be a tad challenging...

The inquisition has power over anything and anyone that is too weak to fight back, and has no power over those with such power.

Gulliman is defiantly in the "has power" side of things. if it came to the Inquisition coming after him, he's exterminate the Inquisition-and that's before the entire realm of ultamar declares war on the Inquisition with over half the loyalist space marines under their command.

It needn't be anything so big as attempting to kill RG even. Here is more or less how any attempt by an Inquisitor to get RG to do anything would go:

I: do this immediately
RG: I'm too busy, holding the Imperium together
I: good point... Do it when you can?
RG: Maybe. If I believe it needs to be done, otherwise I will be too busy. Or do you want the forces of chaos to sweep through the galaxy and consume humanity?
I: Hmm... Ok

It's only backed up by force. An inquisitor has power because the majority of the time imperial forces will obey them and back them up on whatever they're trying to do. If an ordo hereticus inquisitor needs to wipe out a cult of heretics they can grab a nearby guard regiment and order them to do it. The guard will always do it unless there are some crazy circumstances.

If RG tells and inquisitor to zog off what is he going to do about it? Imagine if an inquisitor told a guard regiment that they were going to go attack the Ultramarines and RG. They would probably think the inquisitor has gone traitor. Even an inquisitor's personal forces would balk at the idea of going against a son of the emperor. The only way an enemy of RG could gather forces against him is if they could prove he was a traitor like Horus.

Worship and loyalty to the emperor and by extension any living loyal primarch is going to trump anything an Inquisitor has to say in the vast majority of imperial citizens.

Edit: Hell, in the fluff the inquisition has always had issues with regular space marines. Most regular marine chapters are willing to tell the inquisition to go to hell if they are at odds. Emperor > Chapter > all other loyal humans > everything else dies.

BrianDavion’s signature has the right of it - “Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend”.

If the Inquisitor can call in some heavy hitters, he can make Guilliman’s life difficult. If he can’t, his own heresy may be called into question and he could quietly vanish into the thirsty, grinding gears of the Imperium.

Inq: “Guilliman, you will undertake the following Imperial-mandated test to prove you are uncorrupted by Xenos or Chaos-tainted heresies.”

Rob: “I don’t think so. In fact, I have reassigned you to a unit on the front lines of the Chaos March so your eyes can be opened to the dangers the Imperium currently faces from the Cicatrix Maledictum”

Inq: “But...”

Rob: “I think you’d best hurry before I reserve you a seat on a certain Black Ship with a completely different destination in mind.”

Inq: “But, I’m not even -“

Rob: <Glare>

Inq: “Fine. As you command, my Lord.”

Guilliman definitely has no authority to assign an Inquisitor to do anything, at least by de jure.

No. On paper, the Inqusition's power extends to almost everything. In actuality, their power is limited only by their actual power. Inquisitiorial remit may give them authority to say, wipe out the Space Wolves, but that doesn't stop the Space Wolves fighting back, other chapters joining the Wolves, other organisations standing against the Inqusitor.

No inquisitor has the resources to go after Guilliman. He has the backing of pretty much every Space Marine chapter at this point, between bringing proper reinforcements in the form of Primaris Marines and being the other living Primarch. He likely has Eccesiarchal support as well as the son of their God. He has Custodes Support, Grey Knight support, likely Imperial Guard support too. The only faction he doesn't command fully is the Ad Mech, and even then, depending on how individuals see the new tech being rolled out, he owns a lot of loyalty.

The only thing an Inquisitor has is his own allies, who in comparison to the wider organisations, are insignificant. An inquisitor might be close personal friends with several Chapter masters, but that's inconsequential if those MAsters are all from Guilliman's bloodline. The Blood Angels are naturally grateful to Robby G for bailing them out on Baal and bringing replenished forces. The Space Wolves are beginning to accept Primaris as well and see them as potential Wulfen cure.

In short, no. The legal power of the Inq may extend to Guilliman, but no one even has a hope of touching him politically.

 Crimson wrote:
Guilliman definitely has no authority to assign an Inquisitor to do anything, at least by de jure.

No, but most Inquisitors would be inclined to perform a task personally set by Guilliman because being in his good books gives them more de facto power.

 Jidmah wrote:
That said, I don't think anyone in the Imperium can tell a Primarch what to.

Well, if they can get an appointment, there's always "Dad"...

There are certainly some angles the Inquisition could go for if they were even somewhat unified. The fact that Guilliman was resurrected by a xeno witch doesn't probably sit too well with many devout followers of the Imperial Creed. And of course many powerful organisations would definitely be disgruntled by Guilliman stepping on their toes and disrupting the status quo, so there would be allies to had. It is just that this is not the sort of story that GW wants to do, they want Guilliman to be awesome and shiny and fawned over by everyone.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That said, I don't think anyone in the Imperium can tell a Primarch what to.

Well, if they can get an appointment, there's always "Dad"...

Dad has been a potato for ten millennia.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
That said, I don't think anyone in the Imperium can tell a Primarch what to.

Well, if they can get an appointment, there's always "Dad"...

Dad has been a potato for ten millennia.

Well kinda. Guilliman claims to have spoken to him recently.

 Crimson wrote:
There are certainly some angles the Inquisition could go for if they were even somewhat unified. The fact that Guilliman was resurrected by a xeno witch doesn't probably sit too well with many devout followers of the Imperial Creed. And of course many powerful organisations would definitely be disgruntled by Guilliman stepping on their toes and disrupting the status quo, so there would be allies to had. It is just that this is not the sort of story that GW wants to do, they want Guilliman to be awesome and shiny and fawned over by everyone.

Those same devout followers are also aware that a Living saint gave him the thunbs up and in fact also worked with those same Xenos to carry out His work - the Emperor works in mysterious ways.

GW have been a bit deeper that your idea - RG has to deal with the fact that he and is fatehr failed, that everything he fought for failed, that he is now propping up the opposite, living a nightmare to event a worse one.

Even RG has to play politics and compromise his beliefs - he works with the Church which is a brutal, sadistic horrific entity that goes against all he has fought for, because he has no choice.

Any single Inquisitor is as impotent as they apparently were during Vandires reign - only now they serve silently a true annointed son of God.

 Crimson wrote:
The fact that Guilliman was resurrected by a xeno witch doesn't probably sit too well with many devout followers of the Imperial Creed.

I like how 4chan made people repeat that over and over when A ) number of witnesses to said resurrection can be counted on both hands, vast majority of them being Ultramarines who certainly won't run gossip to nearest Inquisitor, and B ) these followers of creed would need to be colossally stupid to ignore the fact G had audience with the Emperor and has custodes following him telling everyone protesting to shut up and follow his orders, because that is the Emperor's will. Unless said Inquisitor can go to nearest purity seal peddler and buy a copy of Gathering Storm, or pull out of his pocket someone even closer to the Emps than custodians, he/she/it aren't doing gak...

 Irbis wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The fact that Guilliman was resurrected by a xeno witch doesn't probably sit too well with many devout followers of the Imperial Creed.

I like how 4chan made people repeat that over and over when A ) number of witnesses to said resurrection can be counted on both hands, vast majority of them being Ultramarines who certainly won't run gossip to nearest Inquisitor, and B ) these followers of creed would need to be colossally stupid to ignore the fact G had audience with the Emperor and has custodes following him telling everyone protesting to shut up and follow his orders, because that is the Emperor's will. Unless said Inquisitor can go to nearest purity seal peddler and buy a copy of Gathering Storm, or pull out of his pocket someone even closer to the Emps than custodians, he/she/it aren't doing gak...

This, the eldar's involvement in Gulliman's ressurection is almost certainly a secret known only to Celestine, Greyfax, Cawl, and select members of the Ultramarines, and ALL of them, even the arch-puritianical Greyfax accept that this is the divine will of the Emperor made manifest.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Any single Inquisitor is as impotent as they apparently were during Vandires reign - only now they serve silently a true annointed son of God.

Well, I hope Guilliman meets similar end than Vandire! Sic semper tyrannis!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

This, the eldar's involvement in Gulliman's ressurection is almost certainly a secret known only to Celestine, Greyfax, Cawl, and select members of the Ultramarines, and ALL of them, even the arch-puritianical Greyfax accept that this is the divine will of the Emperor made manifest.

Of course. Because Guilliman is the shiniest and the bestests and everybody loves him! Inquisitors and devout Sisters of Battle are willing to overlook xeno necromancy, because Gulliman is just so fab! Oh boy, it is good we got rid of that old stale fluff where Imperium was in decline and all boring and gak!

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Any single Inquisitor is as impotent as they apparently were during Vandires reign - only now they serve silently a true annointed son of God.

Well, I hope Guilliman meets similar end than Vandire! Sic semper tyrannis!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

This, the eldar's involvement in Gulliman's ressurection is almost certainly a secret known only to Celestine, Greyfax, Cawl, and select members of the Ultramarines, and ALL of them, even the arch-puritianical Greyfax accept that this is the divine will of the Emperor made manifest.

Of course. Because Guilliman is the shiniest and the bestests and everybody loves him! Inquisitors and devout Sisters of Battle are willing to overlook xeno necromancy, because Gulliman is just so fab! Oh boy, it is good we got rid of that old stale fluff where Imperium was in decline and all boring and gak!

I agree. It was stale and boring.

 Crimson wrote:
There are certainly some angles the Inquisition could go for if they were even somewhat unified. The fact that Guilliman was resurrected by a xeno witch doesn't probably sit too well with many devout followers of the Imperial Creed. And of course many powerful organisations would definitely be disgruntled by Guilliman stepping on their toes and disrupting the status quo, so there would be allies to had. It is just that this is not the sort of story that GW wants to do, they want Guilliman to be awesome and shiny and fawned over by everyone.

AFAIR officially Girlyman was resurrected by the Adeptus Mechanicus alone, rather than Cawl simply helping out Yvraine. It's questionable how much knowledge of the actual events is available to most inquisitors, assuming that Greyfax wasn't so stupid as to paint a bullseye on her forehead for any hardline puritan Ordo Xenos Inquisitor out there by writing a report that disclosed what actually happened.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Any single Inquisitor is as impotent as they apparently were during Vandires reign - only now they serve silently a true annointed son of God.

Well, I hope Guilliman meets similar end than Vandire! Sic semper tyrannis!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

This, the eldar's involvement in Gulliman's ressurection is almost certainly a secret known only to Celestine, Greyfax, Cawl, and select members of the Ultramarines, and ALL of them, even the arch-puritianical Greyfax accept that this is the divine will of the Emperor made manifest.

Of course. Because Guilliman is the shiniest and the bestests and everybody loves him! Inquisitors and devout Sisters of Battle are willing to overlook xeno necromancy, because Gulliman is just so fab! Oh boy, it is good we got rid of that old stale fluff where Imperium was in decline and all boring and gak!

But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Any single Inquisitor is as impotent as they apparently were during Vandires reign - only now they serve silently a true annointed son of God.

Well, I hope Guilliman meets similar end than Vandire! Sic semper tyrannis!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

This, the eldar's involvement in Gulliman's ressurection is almost certainly a secret known only to Celestine, Greyfax, Cawl, and select members of the Ultramarines, and ALL of them, even the arch-puritianical Greyfax accept that this is the divine will of the Emperor made manifest.

Of course. Because Guilliman is the shiniest and the bestests and everybody loves him! Inquisitors and devout Sisters of Battle are willing to overlook xeno necromancy, because Gulliman is just so fab! Oh boy, it is good we got rid of that old stale fluff where Imperium was in decline and all boring and gak!

yes the complete lack of any changes WAS boring, GW was running out of things they could do without a change.

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

Nope they wrote a interesting story that worked for me - subjective but hey.

The Living Saint went along with it because the Emperor told her to - its not the first time He has used Xenos tech for his own purposes.

They addressed quite a bit of it in the accompanying books and "Sigh" - have you actually read any of the new fluff (or even my previous post) - the Imperium is in few ways better off (some new tech) but also has been torn in two, lost many more worlds etc etc. Cadia is gone, Chaos is ascendant etc etc.

Many normal people (in-universe) love RG - well duh he is the Son of God - but the politics are all still ongoing, the Imperium staggers on - but no more than that. RG questions why and what he is fighting for..

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

proably because it allows them to move onto more intreasting development rather then "lol the Imperium are stupid and in fight!"

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

What makes you think there won't be infighting?

I saw it as just the first step in a new narrative. There are two massive hooks left open for conflict within the Imperium down the road.

1.
Guilliman detests the ecclesiarchy. He will absolutely attempt to take them down eventually. He sees them as an affront to everything the Emperor was fighting for. But he is also a pragmatist and realised that for now he can't fight a civil war while the Imperium is already in such danger.

2.
Other Primarchs. They will return, and there is no way The Lion or Russ will cow to Guilliman.

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

What makes you think there won't be infighting?

I saw it as just the first step in a new narrative. There are two massive hooks left open for conflict within the Imperium down the road.

1.
Guilliman detests the ecclesiarchy. He will absolutely attempt to take them down eventually. He sees them as an affront to everything the Emperor was fighting for. But he is also a pragmatist and realised that for now he can't fight a civil war while the Imperium is already in such danger.

2.
Other Primarchs. They will return, and there is no way The Lion or Russ will cow to Guilliman.

we have to remember that GW likely isn't intending to do a battletech style moving timeline, things will change but it'll be slow and GW's goin g to be filling in a LOT of things over the next few years. our view of the setting is... somewhat incomplete I suspect.

Not to mention that the Eldar meddling could easily come to light later on when they next advance the plot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

What makes you think there won't be infighting?

I saw it as just the first step in a new narrative. There are two massive hooks left open for conflict within the Imperium down the road.

1.
Guilliman detests the ecclesiarchy. He will absolutely attempt to take them down eventually. He sees them as an affront to everything the Emperor was fighting for. But he is also a pragmatist and realised that for now he can't fight a civil war while the Imperium is already in such danger.

2.
Other Primarchs. They will return, and there is no way The Lion or Russ will cow to Guilliman.

we have to remember that GW likely isn't intending to do a battletech style moving timeline, things will change but it'll be slow and GW's goin g to be filling in a LOT of things over the next few years. our view of the setting is... somewhat incomplete I suspect.

I basically agree. What I expect (hope) is that every 18 months or so we get a campaign release which advances the plot around a few big specific events in the setting.

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:


But why would the Inquisitors or sisters or anyone think that Xenos were even involved. The only people who knew are either personally loyal to Gulliman, a Living Saint, one Inqusitor who herself has been exposed to xenos tech so any accusation she throws around would lead to Cawl ratting out that she was a necron puppet and Cawl himself who is probably happy to take all the credit for getting God's son back on his feet. Even if an Inquisitor magically knew what happened, to accuse a primarch and win they would need overwhelming proof.

But that is because GW chose to write it so. Everyone, (a bloody living saint included!) just went along with it. They chose to kill this potentially interesting story development where there would be conflict, friction and even potential infighting in the Imperium over a childish and boring stryline where Guilliman is just a big shiny hero and everyone loves him.

What makes you think there won't be infighting?

I saw it as just the first step in a new narrative. There are two massive hooks left open for conflict within the Imperium down the road.

1.
Guilliman detests the ecclesiarchy. He will absolutely attempt to take them down eventually. He sees them as an affront to everything the Emperor was fighting for. But he is also a pragmatist and realised that for now he can't fight a civil war while the Imperium is already in such danger.

2.
Other Primarchs. They will return, and there is no way The Lion or Russ will cow to Guilliman.

Agreed - From the Imperial POV the absolute worst Primarch to come back would be the Lion, just as likely to cause a new civil war given his personality (or lack of it) - they would be much better off with him asleep.

The Lion would just assume he was in charge now. Cheers for keeping the seat warm Bobby, I'll take it from here!

There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

Not what we said at all and kindly tone down the "fanboy" crap. I realise you have a pathogical hate of the character but sheesh.

The question was can a Inquisitor order around RG - we all said no thats not how it would work due to the power structure that he has built around him - its too strong and would upset too many people who benefit from him, not all of which he likes or is even agrees with.

As has been noted numerous times there plenty of issues that have and will arise but can a basic inquisitor walk up to him and order him to do stuff - nah - no more than they could Vandire.

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

Well let's have a discussion about what people here are saying, not what these 'fanboys' are saying.

Personally I think the reason there hasn't been much resistance within the Imperium to Guilliman yet, from a narrative perspective, is because that story is part of what they have planned for the return of The Lion.

 Mr Morden wrote:

As has been noted numerous times there plenty of issues that have and will arise but can a basic inquisitor walk up to him and order him to do stuff - nah - no more than they could Vandire.

And yet what happened to Vandire?


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 Stux wrote:


Personally I think the reason there hasn't been much resistance within the Imperium to Guilliman yet, from a narrative perspective, is because that story is part of what they have planned for the return of The Lion.

I really fething hope not. I really don't want to 40K to turn into HH where you need to be a Primarch or at least some other sort of superhuman to have any agency. Kepp that Primarch soap opera out of 40K.



Furthermore, a single inquisitor alone could obviously not challenge Guilliman. It would require the Inquisition as a group, working together with other factions and people who were threatened by Guilliman upsetting the status quo.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

As has been noted numerous times there plenty of issues that have and will arise but can a basic inquisitor walk up to him and order him to do stuff - nah - no more than they could Vandire.

And yet what happened to Vandire?


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 Stux wrote:


Personally I think the reason there hasn't been much resistance within the Imperium to Guilliman yet, from a narrative perspective, is because that story is part of what they have planned for the return of The Lion.

I really fething hope not. I really don't want to 40K to turn into HH where you need to be a Primarch or at least some other sort of superhuman to have any agency. Kepp that Primarch soap opera out of 40K.



Furthermore, a single inquisitor alone could obviously not challenge Guilliman. It would require the Inquisition as a group, working together with other factions and people who were threatened by Guilliman upsetting the status quo.

Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

Ah but everyone is boycotting that game now

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

Yep. Well said.


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 Stux wrote:

Ah but everyone is boycotting that game now

Do you hear that GW! That's because everyone hates Primarchs! No more Primarchs!

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:
In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

I'm sure most people would love for the lore in 40k to go the way of a song of ice and fire with people only getting one book in the last 12-13 years. Ultimately as much as some people don't like it the horus heresy sold well so they're bringing back characters that people have been asking for forever into the present with models and new lore. If they didn't make the primarchs so much more powerful than their marines this probably wouldn't have happened.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:


Well, I'm afraid the Primarchs are returning. They've been super popular kits, so I'm certain they'll keep coming. And like it or not they will absolutely be the protagonists of the story going forward.

Yes, you're probably correct. And no, I don't like that. Apparently it was not enough to have whole separate game dedicated to Primarchs pummelling each other...

In a twisted ironic way 40k's becoming more stagnant as the current "storyline" keeps advancing. GW is taking the most convenient path and turning 40k in to another rendition of 30k, so instead of grand sweeping stories that require though and effort like Game of Thrones or Romance of the Three Kingdoms we get a bunch of immortal idiots fighting their each other again and again.. and again… and again. Huzzah!

I don't totally disagree with you. But at the same time I appreciate the position GW are in too. They simply can't get all GoTs on their storyline. Complex stories of betrayal, changing sides, and major characters checking out simply aren't compatible with an expensive miniatures game.

Take the idea some people had that Russ could return having fallen to Khorne, just as an example. It's a fun idea. But they can't do it, because it would possibly off most of the Space Wolf players. They'd feel seriously screwed.

They have to leave scope for people to continue to field the armies they have so much emotional attachment to, and that restricts how much they can do to rock the boat in the lore.


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Of course they did do it in Fantasy with End Times... And that caused some major rifts which will never be healed for some of the older players.

Besides saying "instead of GoiT of three kingdoms" implies we might have gotten that, has GW EVER given us that type of storyline?

It's also quite impossible to deliver such storyline as background to build a game on.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's also quite impossible to deliver such storyline as background to build a game on.

not without adapting a massive change from how GW delivers the setting no, GW has never done a very good job tying novels to game events etc that would be nesscary for that type of thing, really the only game setting I'm familer with that has sort of managed it is Battletech and It's a open question how well they've done it

Regarding the initial question, my own opinion is that while the i inquisition may have power over the office Guilliman posses, they don't actually have authority over his person.

The Imperium isn't a place of checks and balances, it's an autocracy that has had to find a workaround solution to its autocrat being unable to lead for 10,000 years, and find a solution that works within all the power boundaries set up to maintain that autocrats power with no rivals.

But now a new autocrats has been able to take power by the apparant blessing of the old one, amd supported by the most prestigious and singularly important power broker in the entire government.

He's untouchable IMO.

Even Ceasar, emperor of rome, leader of the world, got a knife in his back.
Doesnt matter how powerful you are or high up you go. Tick off enough people and theyll be there to cut you down.

A lone inquisitor might not be able to do much. But thats the thing about inquisitors. Theyre never alone. They have their own webs and wheels and wheels withing wheels. The organisation of the inquisition wouldnt have too much trouble orchestrating power moves with all its multinumerous connections if it so desired. Rowboat didnt make any friends when he basically told the inquisition they were idiots and started making his own quasi inquisitors to "make an accurate history". That alone would be rage fuel to many as anything that comes out of that that isnt in line with the creed and what the inquisition says so can only be interpreted as absolute heresy and bobby g easily labeled as a fraud by many regardless of how many important people say hes cool.

Guilliman isnt Caesar; hes Augustus.


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Like wise who is the average Imperial citizen actually going to believe- the word of some random inquisitor, or the word of a Cystodian, the only true appointed (and themselves semi devine and legendary) voice the emperor?

The inqusition only has as much power as can be mustered over 10000 years of religious dogma that is totally bent in supporting what the Custodians say the emperor said. And that isnt going to be much.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Even Ceasar, emperor of rome, leader of the world, got a knife in his back.
Doesnt matter how powerful you are or high up you go. Tick off enough people and theyll be there to cut you down.

A lone inquisitor might not be able to do much. But thats the thing about inquisitors. Theyre never alone. They have their own webs and wheels and wheels withing wheels. The organisation of the inquisition wouldnt have too much trouble orchestrating power moves with all its multinumerous connections if it so desired. Rowboat didnt make any friends when he basically told the inquisition they were idiots and started making his own quasi inquisitors to "make an accurate history". That alone would be rage fuel to many as anything that comes out of that that isnt in line with the creed and what the inquisition says so can only be interpreted as absolute heresy and bobby g easily labeled as a fraud by many regardless of how many important people say hes cool.

except that you're assuming all Inqusitors would oppose the idea. For every Inqusitor who hears the idea and screams heresy, there are likely inqusitors who think it's a good idea. and there are furthermore OTHERS who likely take a more nuanced version and think it may be benifical for certain parties to have a more complete view of actual history. Unless you really think EVERY Inqusitor is a history burning moron.

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

They are called Ultramarines and they have bolters.

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
Even Ceasar, emperor of rome, leader of the world, got a knife in his back.
Doesnt matter how powerful you are or high up you go. Tick off enough people and theyll be there to cut you down.

A lone inquisitor might not be able to do much. But thats the thing about inquisitors. Theyre never alone. They have their own webs and wheels and wheels withing wheels. The organisation of the inquisition wouldnt have too much trouble orchestrating power moves with all its multinumerous connections if it so desired. Rowboat didnt make any friends when he basically told the inquisition they were idiots and started making his own quasi inquisitors to "make an accurate history". That alone would be rage fuel to many as anything that comes out of that that isnt in line with the creed and what the inquisition says so can only be interpreted as absolute heresy and bobby g easily labeled as a fraud by many regardless of how many important people say hes cool.

Possibily but also remember that Rg is the annoited son of GOD, chosen by Him, created by Him - many Inquisitors are true believers and when a Living Saint is one of those that confirms his status as did his audience with the Emperor himself.

Ceaser did too much too quickly, I would agree that in some ways Rg is more Augustus or Sulla both of whom surived to old age.

I also agree however that many in the Inqustion will not take kindly to any reduction in their power and it is likely a cabel or cabel's has already arisen - now how much they can do (or if they avoid fighting each other) is the question.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's also Marneus Calgar's growing insecurity and envy at being left behind to guard Macragge and then having to be bailed out and cencured (even if implicitly) by Guilliman. There's the friction between veteran Marines and the Primaris, even amongst Chapters such as the Ultramarines. There's elements of the Adeptus Terra who are reluctant to give up the power structures they've built over 10,000 years. There's Whatever power structures are forming in the Imperium Nihilus, who may not want to be resuced and "liberated" after a century or more of getting by on their own. There's the Custodes' own distrust of the Space Marines. Guilliman and Cawl not necessarily having all their objectives in alignment. Planetary governors resisting or hampering the efforts to rebuild the old 500 worlds of Ultramar.
If you think that the current story has no conflict, infighting and friction, then you're simply not paying attention.

All of these are interesting things and the should concentrate on them more and they should actually go somewhere. But every time I suggest that any of such things could result anyone actually opposing Guilliman a legion of fanboys appears to tell me how that is impossible because Guilliman is just too awesome and powerful.

They are called Ultramarines and they have bolters.

Thing is it's not JUST the Ultramarines supporting Gulliman (although the Ultramarines and their sucessors alone is a pretty potent power block) in addition Gulliman has the Custodes in his corner, furthermore the ecclesiarchy offically backs him as a living Saint. This does not mean Gulliman won't have push back, but it means the push back isn't going to be obvious . no one's going to get up on a Pulpit and dennounce Gulliman as a traitor and heretic, they MAY however move somewhat slower on getting things done then they should.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Guilliman isnt Caesar; hes Augustus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Like wise who is the average Imperial citizen actually going to believe- the word of some random inquisitor, or the word of a Cystodian, the only true appointed (and themselves semi devine and legendary) voice the emperor?

The inqusition only has as much power as can be mustered over 10000 years of religious dogma that is totally bent in supporting what the Custodians say the emperor said. And that isnt going to be much.

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

He will be Augustus when his brothers return, that's for sure- Guilliman may be forced to share power in an imperial triumvirate, but its almost assured that he'll be able to martial the most individual forces, and certainly have tue best political acumen between Russ, The Lion and himself. Not that I expect them to come to blows; or if they do maybe chaos will also be in a period of internal turmoil to explain why they dont exploit tue situation.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
He will be Augustus when his brothers return, that's for sure- Guilliman may be forced to share power in an imperial triumvirate, but its almost assured that he'll be able to martial the most individual forces, and certainly have tue best political acumen between Russ, The Lion and himself. Not that I expect them to come to blows; or if they do maybe chaos will also be in a period of internal turmoil to explain why they dont exploit tue situation.

I expect the Lion to make a power grab, but be rebuked because Guilliman's power base is already too strong (and the Custodes will stay behind him).

The Lion will then retreat with The Rock to Imperium Nihilus and cause Dante problems. Ultimately there'll pretty much be a cold war type situation between the main Imperium and Nihilus. Some skirmishing perhaps even, but stopping short of all out war, and cooperation against Humanity's biggest threats.

If Russ is thrown in the mix, I'm not sure where he'll end up. Possibly with the Lion as while they have no love for each other, there is respect, and he won't be RGs dog in the way he was for the Emperor.

Just theory mongering of course, but something like that feels like a possible route to take with it all. If all the Primarchs that come back just become super best friends I won't be too impressed!

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

Doesn't it seem completely ludicrous to anyone else that these guys have been missing for ten thousand years, but then bunch of them happen to return pretty much at the same time?

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Yes, buuuuuut.... Prophesy is a real thing in 40k, and there's been lore that at least Russ if not the others woukd cime back for the “end times”.

Now its always been taken for granted that these were just hopeful myths in the style of king Arthur, but it turns out they were correct. Which is kinda classic 40k in a way- that the weird religious stuff that shouldnt be possible is exactly what happens.

 Stux wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Yes, buuuuuut.... Prophesy is a real thing in 40k, and there's been lore that at least Russ if not the others woukd cime back for the “end times”.

Now its always been taken for granted that these were just hopeful myths in the style of king Arthur, but it turns out they were correct. Which is kinda classic 40k in a way- that the weird religious stuff that shouldnt be possible is exactly what happens.

Well that's the great contradiction of the Imperial truth isn't it. That religion is superstitious mumbo jumbo that humanity must leave being... But oh yeah, the warp is a thing and your emotions spawn gods!

And that's a 80s punk theme of early 40k at its finest- government tells you one thing and its really the exact opposite.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
Yes, buuuuuut.... Prophesy is a real thing in 40k, and there's been lore that at least Russ if not the others woukd cime back for the “end times”.

Now its always been taken for granted that these were just hopeful myths in the style of king Arthur, but it turns out they were correct. Which is kinda classic 40k in a way- that the weird religious stuff that shouldnt be possible is exactly what happens.

And then the setting is ruined. Yay! But it kinda is already, so I guess they can go all the way...

Carlovonsexron wrote:
And that's a 80s punk theme of early 40k at its finest- government tells you one thing and its really the exact opposite.

Hah! Yes, 40k has never shown authority in an especially flattering light!

But yeah, there's loads of interesting ways this could play out. I just hope they do SOMETHING with it. But I am optimistic

I think we should find out before the end of the year if Gathering Storm was an isolated thing or if it signalled the start of a new approach to the lore.

 Crimson wrote:


Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

I agree with the melodramatic soap opera part, but I do like seeing the Imperium go in a new direction, and stumble drunkenly out of its dark age and into a period of reinvigoration.

 Crimson wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:
I think it's more realistic to see them being super best friends though- none of them are going to be happy with what the Imperium became in thier absence, and after an initial shake up to see what kind of a balance works I can't see them being so petty as to not try and fix the Imperium.

Certainly those primarchs who supported the codex will have tue foresight to work together. If Russ and The Lion end up the odd men out thats rather self condemnin in terms of character. But then that would also he a very interesting story line (the pocket kingdoms of Russ and the Lion and the wider Imperium headed up bu Robute, Corax, The Khan, and if we're lucky Dorn. It's also a foreseeable event that even Valdor could make a return, considering the Custodes codex makes it plain that he never died “on camera”...

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

Each to their own. Seems awesome to me. The people I talk to are pretty excited to see where it goes!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carlovonsexron wrote:

 Crimson wrote:


Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

I agree with the melodramatic soap opera part, but I do like seeing the Imperium go in a new direction, and stumble drunkenly out of its dark age and into a period of reinvigoration.

Definitely this. All grimdark all the time is extremely tedious for me. You need hope for the dark stuff to really mean anything. Otherwise it's just arbitrary numbers of dead guardsmen, yawn.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

 Crimson wrote:


Boy all this seems super dreadful. I really hope there won't be any more loyalist Primarchs. This is exactly the sort of Primarch soap opera nonsense that makes me want to puke.

I agree with the melodramatic soap opera part, but I do like seeing the Imperium go in a new direction, and stumble drunkenly out of its dark age and into a period of reinvigoration.

Hell no! The dark age is like one of the central element of the setting. They could stumble into even worse dark age though, there is still a way to go before they hit the bottom. The imperium already is kinda like the Holy Roman Empire in space, but I would like to see the fractured nature of it being played out more, with the power blocks working against each other and even some infighting. It would make sense to emphasise this game-wise too, as probably at least half the 40K games actually played are Imperium vs. Imperium games...

See, to me the Imperium isnt the Holy Roman Empire, but the acrual Roman empire in space; the Emperor is this combination of Alexander the Great and Augustus, and Guilliman most properly seen as Constantine.

I see this mostly because the way the Imperiums military is set up is exactly like the late Roman empire, with three tiers of military assets. (PDF-Guard-Astartes compared to the Limitanei, Comitatenses and Palatini/Scholae) as well as the major theme being a decline from greatness and a gradual decline into local autonomy ajd feudalism from aj increasingly autocraric, brital akd ineffective central government, along with the main threats being Space Barbarians from North (realtive to Terra/Rome), and the Galactic east with the endless hordes of huns/Tyranids.

Ultramar being Constantinople (even more obvious if you look at the position of ultramar ad a thin passage of safty between the warp rifts) and there you have it IMO.

The thing about such a setting is that you cam have reformers and dreamers who can set back the clock- Justinians and Belisarius’s or people even great new transformers, like Heraclius or the successful Emperors of the “Byzantine” period.

The parallel isnt exactly 1 to 1, but the point is even when things seem on a road to ruin sometimes great people arise to change the course. Though for 40k its new people are actually the old ones. Which, eh, but lets see where it goes.

Carlovonsexron wrote:
See, to me the Imperium isnt the Holy Roman Empire, but the acrual Roman empire in space; the Emperor is this combination of Alexander the Great and Augustus, and Guilliman most properly seen as Constantine.

I see this mostly because the way the Imperiums military is set up is exactly like the late Roman empire, with three tiers of military assets. (PDF-Guard-Astartes compared to the Limitanei, Comitatenses and Palatini/Scholae) as well as the major theme being a decline from greatness and a gradual decline into local autonomy ajd feudalism from aj increasingly autocraric, brital akd ineffective central government, along with the main threats being Space Barbarians from North (realtive to Terra/Rome), and the Galactic east with the endless hordes of huns/Tyranids.

Ultramar being Constantinople (even more obvious if you look at the position of ultramar ad a thin passage of safty between the warp rifts) and there you have it IMO.

The thing about such a setting is that you cam have reformers and dreamers who can set back the clock- Justinians and Belisarius’s or people even great new transformers, like Heraclius or the successful Emperors of the “Byzantine” period.

The parallel isnt exactly 1 to 1, but the point is even when things seem on a road to ruin sometimes great people arise to change the course. Though for 40k its new people are actually the old ones. Which, eh, but lets see where it goes.

Yeah, those parallels are certainly there. I think it would have been cooler, if the High Lords would not have instantly capitulated to Guilliman. He could have been made the ruler of Ultramar and maybe even the Lord Commander Ultima (the highest military leader of the Ultima Segmentum,) but the jealous High Lords would have kept the Terra and the reins of power to themselves (while obviously being really polite about it.) This would have set up the declining old Rome and new and innovative Constantinople parallel and made two distinct power blocks withing the Imperium,

Imperiums certainly has parallels for a lot of different things.

40k did start as Warhammer... IN SPAAACE, as such Imperium is the Empire, which was modelled after Holy Roman Empire, put into SPAAACE.

In that vein I'd say that DAoT was the "Roman Empire" of 40k, which makes Imperiums the Holy Roman Empire - a shadow of the past glory that desperately tries to prop itself up as the inheritors of the former empires glory despite not coming even close to it.

Ultramar is the nickname of the Portugese Empire, which ruled Brazil - and Charles V ruled not only the Holy Roman Empire but also the Spanish Empire, which ruled most of the americas.

Another parallel with the Imperium could be the Nazi Germany, who wanted the old german colonial empire back and to protect what they considered "pure europians", but yet most people they managed to get killed where europians, and they wrecked any chance for the europian colonial empires.to recover from the damage of WW1.

To be honest, I feel like the Imperium was never so much the warhammer empire in space as much as people want it to be. They were both “generic human realm: IN SPAAAACE” and not really based off each other. The fluff certain never lines up very well to make them equivalent. Even in warhammer, the Empire is only narrowly the strongest human realm, and had significant competition is both martial prowess and prestige from the other buman factions; factor in the non human factions and ita clear the fantasy empire isn't anything like the 40k Imperium. The differences in internal politics make it even more evident.


40K Imperium is the brain child of a whole lot of sci fi and historu lovers getting together and ad hoc making a future history, an aimless amalgamation of different influences that eventually hit its stride, but it never really seemed like a direct cognate to the empire in warhammer beyond both being an empire, being the primary human faction, and both being influenced by the gothic sensibilities of their creators. (IMO)

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

No, Caesar was a man given divine recognition by the state with no actually godly powers we know of in the real world, as a reward for his accomplishments.

The Emperor is an actual god with actually god-level abilities he used to accomplish things.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

No, Caesar was a man given divine recognition by the state with no actually godly powers we know of in the real world, as a reward for his accomplishments.

The Emperor is an actual god with actually god-level abilities he used to accomplish things.

Your other example was Jesus. Do you think he really had godly powers either? And for purpose of this discussion it only matters how people perceive things, not how they are. If the Romans believed Caesar was a god, he was a god to them.

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:

Guilliman isnt Augustus either, he's Jesus. Caesar was a man, Augustus was a man. The Emperor is a god, and Guilliman his son. Its Zeus and Heracles.

No, Caesar was a god.

No, Caesar was a man given divine recognition by the state with no actually godly powers we know of in the real world, as a reward for his accomplishments.

The Emperor is an actual god with actually god-level abilities he used to accomplish things.

Your other example was Jesus. Do you think he really had godly powers either? And for purpose of this discussion it only matters how people perceive things, not how they are. If the Romans believed Caesar was a god, he was a god to them.

Jesus is Guilliman, the son of god. The Emperor is God or Jupiter or Zeus. Whichever you prefer. Because he had ACTUAL godlevel powers are showed them. Fact he has godlevel power.

The Romans revered and viewed him as godly but he wasnt healing lepers and curing blindness. Guilliman's 40k revival is more like the Second Coming with Christ with the 10 Commandments, 2nd Edition and signed by the author.

 Deadshot wrote:


Jesus is Guilliman, the son of god. The Emperor is God or Jupiter or Zeus. Whichever you prefer. Because he had ACTUAL godlevel powers are showed them. Fact he has godlevel power.

The Romans revered and viewed him as godly but he wasn't healing lepers and curing blindness. Guilliman's 40k revival is more like the Second Coming with Christ with the 10 Commandments, 2nd Edition and signed by the author.

Yeah, Jesus wasn't really healing lepers or the blind either, yet some people believe he did. He was just as much son of God that Caesar was a descendant of Mars. Emperor has been a rotting corpse for ten millennia, what matters is that people believe he is a god. Guilliman is not really his son either, he is Frankenstein's monster, a lab experiment. What matters is that people see him as semi-divine regardless. So it is about the perception.

We should probably stere away from what exactly Jesus did or didn't do before the thread gets locked :p

 Stux wrote:
We should probably stere away from what exactly Jesus did or didn't do before the thread gets locked :p

Perhaps someone shouldn't have used him as an example then!

Edited by RiTides

 Stux wrote:
We should probably stere away from what exactly Jesus did or didn't do before the thread gets locked :p

Yes, please.

Back on topic, and no more discussion of Caesar, Jesus, or any other historical figure. This forum is for 40k General Discussion, not history or religion!

Any questions, just PM me, thanks.

 Crimson wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:


Jesus is Guilliman, the son of god. The Emperor is God or Jupiter or Zeus. Whichever you prefer. Because he had ACTUAL godlevel powers are showed them. Fact he has godlevel power.

The Romans revered and viewed him as godly but he wasn't healing lepers and curing blindness. Guilliman's 40k revival is more like the Second Coming with Christ with the 10 Commandments, 2nd Edition and signed by the author.

Yeah, Jesus wasn't really healing lepers or the blind either, yet some people believe he did. He was just as much son of God that Caesar was a descendant of Mars. Emperor has been a rotting corpse for ten millennia, what matters is that people believe he is a god. Guilliman is not really his son either, he is Frankenstein's monster, a lab experiment. What matters is that people see him as semi-divine regardless. So it is about the perception.

The difference between Caesar and the Emperor however is that Caesar was born, had parents, etc, like any other human. The Emperor was from an unknown origin and had real, tangible, provable godlike powers, unlike Caesar who was perceived as a godlike for reasons unrelated to any powers. He was a great general, the Emperor could disintegrate a man with a thought, rip out a soul and obliterate it, and force a Legion to its knees with his powers.

RiTides: I believe these are legitimate topics of discussion as they are a comparrison of position and status to the Emperor, in order to make a point on the topic. The topic beingi if the Inq can judicste over Guilliman, to which someone made a comparison to Caesar getting stabbed at the back despite status, to which I disagree, as the Emperor is more akin to a god (any god) than a monarch figure. The historical world is as much an inspiration for 40k as fiction and sci-fi and is a legitimate topic related to the thread.

The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

I think he's trying to say that he doesn't believe in the God-Emperor.

Get the flamers boys! We've got a heretic to burn!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

That it mostly doesn't matter how things are, only that how they're perceived.

That there are some people that are kinda hard to kill is hardly proof of divine intervention. And even if we as readers would know that's what it is, do you think people in of the Imperium meet living saints regularly? Of course not, they believe in them because the Ecclesiarchy tells them so. Similarly they believe that Guilliman is a divine saviour because the Ecclesiarchy told them so. And had the Ecclesiarchy instead told them that he is a blasphemous zombie, a result of xeno-witch necromancy and sacrilege against the good name of Saint Roboute then they would have believed that.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

That it mostly doesn't matter how things are, only that how they're perceived.

That there are some people that are kinda hard to kill is hardly proof of divine intervention. And even if we as readers would know that's what it is, do you think people in of the Imperium meet living saints regularly? Of course not, they believe in them because the Ecclesiarchy tells them so. Similarly they believe that Guilliman is a divine saviour because the Ecclesiarchy told them so. And had the Ecclesiarchy instead told them that he is a blasphemous zombie, a result of xeno-witch necromancy and sacrilege against the good name of Saint Roboute then they would have believed that.

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

 Stux wrote:

I could totally see the Lion being petty enough and Russ being angry enough to cause serious headaches for Guilliman! I don't think either are pragmatic enough to suffer the ecclesiarchy to continue to exist either.

The Lion would believe without a doubt that he should be Lord Commander.

It is possible that RG takes the high ground, gives The Lion the title to sooth his ego, and then continues to actually run things as he was previously.

Or possibly give him the title of Warmaster since he was so sore about missing out on that one last time round.

I actually think that either the Lion or the Wolf returning would be less a drama and more a help to Bobby G. Yes they have their differences but they learned their lesson during the HH that they could not afford to keep fighting each other. Letting the Lion take charge of the military side of things would free RG up to actually try and rebuild the Imperium properly rather than having to spend 95% of his time running around putting out bush fires.

Simmilarly I don't see Russ as causing that much trouble. RG considered him one of the "dauntless few" so obviously held him in high esteem. Guilliman is a brilliant military leader by mortal standards but was not in the running for the title or Warmaster. The reason for successes of the Ultras during the Great Crusade were as much down to their size as anything else. Guilliman is brilliant at logistics, organisation and running things. If you were assigning Primarchs cabinet offices, you would want RG for Home Secretary. He is better qualified to by Lord Commander than anyone else in the Imperium but if one of his more tactically-minded brothers showed up, I am sure he would be only too happy to share the load.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

 Grimskul wrote:

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

And if he was actually a thrall of Yvraine set up by the Ynnead to take control of the Imperium how would things look any different?

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

And if he was actually a thrall of Yvraine set up by the Ynnead to take control of the Imperium how would things look any different?

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

Have you read the Campaign packs? You seem to be ingoring the entire story. Why?

Its not a "Devout Sister of Battle" - Its Saint Celestine on a mission from her God, - she is (as normal) told what to do by the Emperor himself to use the Xenos for His purpose.

The Inquisitor is massively suspcious of the Xenos, and both RG AND St Celestine as she is out of touch by a few hundred years having been a captive of a certain Necron collector (who has has her mind shackled)

It takes her till the end of the entire campign to believe.

If God sent a incarnate angel to Earth to tell people what to do - fairly sure the cathloics (at the very least) would believe - this is not a question of having to rely on Fiath - GOD sends an actual ANGEL.

Its like Pratchet said - its hard to be an atheist if the actual Gods come round and throw bricks through your window!

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Its not a "Devout Sister of Battle" - Its Saint Celestine on a mission from her God, - she is (as normal) told what to do by the Emperor himself to use the Xenos for His purpose.

And you don't think that the Emperor literally telling people that he is personally cool with xenos necromancy don't pretty heavily damage the central themes of the setting?

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

Ok now you are getting a bit silly - The Emperor speaks to people - thats confirmed by GW in and out of universe.

And you don't think that the Emperor literally telling people that he is personally cool with xenos necromancy don't pretty heavily damage the central themes of the setting?

No - The Emperor is a hypocrite - we all know this. The Imperium is based on dark contradicitons - remenber the job of some of the most Elite marines it has is to aquire Xenos tech to allow the Ad MEch to reverse engineer it.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

But no one outside of Greyfax, Celestine, the Ynnari, and the UM know about the details of his resurrection. Even if Inquisitors were (rightfully) suspicious, if he has the backing of the Custodes (whom even the Inquisitors must defer to) and as Morden said, a bloody Saint of the Emperor, why would anyone question him? None of his actions have merited accusations of treason or heresy either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

I can understand your frustration with his return, but fundamentally there's nothing wrong with a Primarch returning, at least the way he did. It's not like the Imperium never had a Primarch lead it, the complications that arise is the Great Rift, cleaving the Imperium in two, and Roboute's own horror of what the Imperium's become. There's a lot of potential in him attempting some pursuit of reform and having to deal with rotting edifices that have been built up, like the Ecclesiarchy. He's already butted heads with Inquisitors that cover up the Imperium's past with his attempt to revive his version of Remembrancers that are trying to catalogue a relatively accurate timeline for the Imperium that has been out of whack for 10k years.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

BrianDavion wrote:

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

Yes. GW wrote those people accepting that stuff, but they shouldn't have. I am critiquing the writing, do you understand that? They brushed a potentially interesting point of conflict under the carpet in favour of the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

Ok now you are getting a bit silly - The Emperor speaks to people - thats confirmed by GW in and out of universe.

And you don't think that the Emperor literally telling people that he is personally cool with xenos necromancy don't pretty heavily damage the central themes of the setting?

No - The Emperor is a hypocrite - we all know this. The Imperium is based on dark contradicitons - remenber the job of some of the most Elite marines it has is to aquire Xenos tech to allow the Ad MEch to reverse engineer it.

Bingo!

I'm increasingly of the opinion through this thread that Crimson's real issue is that they've made some big assumptions about the lore that are not actually true. Complaining about stuff contradicting the lore when it's not at all, it's just contradicting their perception of the lore.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

Yes. GW wrote those people accepting that stuff, but they shouldn't have. I am critiquing the writing, do you understand that? They brushed a potentially interesting point of conflict under the carpet in favour of the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative.

Why wouldn't they accept it?

Cawl like many of the radical tech priests seems to regularly use/ consorts with Xenos. No reason for him to take issue with an eldar being in the room Celestine is a living saint who is carrying out the emperors will which clearly includes getting the IOM one of it's best generals back. The Ultra Marines have no reason to turn on their own Primarch and have in the past worked with Eldar/Tau when the stakes were high enough. Only Greyfax has any reason to not be ok with the Eldar and she would be a crappy witness if she did say anything. This is also assuming that anyone that witnessed this actually understand exactly what happened. Sure they knew the eldar were in the room but how many would really understand what Yvraine did? They would probably assume that it was all Cawl and I doubt he's not gonna take the credit.

What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

 Crimson wrote:
What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

we understand... and think it would have been a lame story. "ohh look the very future of humanity is threatened, but these small minded morons are too busy infighting.. yawn"

seriously, people infighting like morons when the fething future of humanity is at stake ISN'T a good story, yeah I know Game of Thrones does it but some of us think GRRM is an over rated writer

And again yes the IOM is not a big fan of xenos but in many stories have worked with the Eldar especially when fighting Chaos. Also stop with the blanket all members of a faction act the same way. The Ultramarines are know for being pragmatic, Cawl is by your logic a heretic (to be fair though he kinda is) and Celestine isn't just a battle sister, she's essential an demon of the God of Order. Again, the only person who would flip out just because eldar are in the room is Greyfax and at the time, she is tempted to do so. She is however not an idiot and realizes shooting Bobby G, the dirty Xenos or Celestine is only going to get her killed so she holds her tongue.

Your essentially acting like teaming up with the Eldar never ever happens, when it's actually a fairly common scenario.

That's probably the attitude that most people who don't like what Guilliman is doing are going to take. Any overt move against him would be crushed because even the factions or people who don't like him have other reasons to not work together.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Dude at about this point given you're not a stupid individual, I'm beginning to suspect you're being deliberatly obtuse.

No one, outside of Cawl, Greyfax, Celestine and some Ultramarines know the Eldar where involved. So all this "Xenos necromancy" you keep babbling about isn't something anyone knows expect people who have already accepted him

Yes. GW wrote those people accepting that stuff, but they shouldn't have. I am critiquing the writing, do you understand that? They brushed a potentially interesting point of conflict under the carpet in favour of the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative.

"Sigh"

I asked if you have read the source material -you obviously have not and have no interest in doing so have ignored all the points we have made about the actual story.

We get it, you hate RG - well done - point made.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

we understand... and think it would have been a lame story. "ohh look the very future of humanity is threatened, but these small minded morons are too busy infighting.. yawn"

seriously, people infighting like morons when the fething future of humanity is at stake ISN'T a good story, yeah I know Game of Thrones does it but some of us think GRRM is an over rated writer

That indeed would have been way better story and would have much better fit the nihilistic nature of the 40K lore. Or at least what 40K lore used to be... As for GRRM, his stories seem to be pretty popular so I really don't think emulating some of that would have been a bad idea. Certainly way better than the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative that we got.

But yeah, you actually summarised the important point of disconnect, if you think that 'small minded morons infighting and endangering the humanity' is not cool but big damn noble heroes are, then we're not going to agree. We fundamentally disagree what 40K should be about.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
What part of 'it makes a boring story' you did not understand? The Inquisition, the Sisters and Marines all normally absolutely loathe the xenos. It would have been very easy to write a seed of that conflict there.

we understand... and think it would have been a lame story. "ohh look the very future of humanity is threatened, but these small minded morons are too busy infighting.. yawn"

seriously, people infighting like morons when the fething future of humanity is at stake ISN'T a good story, yeah I know Game of Thrones does it but some of us think GRRM is an over rated writer

That indeed would have been way better story and would have much better fit the nihilistic nature of the 40K lore. Or at least what 40K lore used to be... As for GRRM, his stories seem to be pretty popular so I really don't think emulating some of that would have been a bad idea. Certainly way better than the unquestioned shiny saviour narrative that we got.

But yeah, you actually summarised the important point of disconnect, if you think that 'small minded morons infighting and endangering the humanity' is not cool but big damn noble heroes are, then we're not going to agree. We fundamentally disagree what 40K should be about.

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

thing is, we've gotten very few looks at Primaris Marines so far, a few codex entries and a tinsy number of novels. codices aren't really good for "subtle" (and despite everyone claiming GOT is a good example of politics, it in many ways is an example of what happens when playing the political game backfires) in terms of post Gathering Storm novels we've gotten..

Blood of Ix, Conquest of honour and Iron, Dark Imperium, Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets, Devestation of Baal. Watcher's on the throne.

I have no read Blood of Ix and Conquest of Honor and Iron, but Dark Imperium Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets Devestation of Baal and Watchers on the throne ALL had some degee of resistance to Gulliman.

BrianDavion wrote:

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

Sure, It doesn't need to be full blown civil war, but now we are so firmly in the "noble hero superfriends" territory that the middle ground is not even in the sight.

(and despite everyone claiming GOT is a good example of politics, it in many ways is an example of what happens when playing the political game backfires)

And that results an interesting situation! Let it backfire!

in terms of post Gathering Storm novels we've gotten..

Blood of Ix, Conquest of honour and Iron, Dark Imperium, Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets, Devestation of Baal. Watcher's on the throne.

I have no read Blood of Ix and Conquest of Honor and Iron, but Dark Imperium Ruins of Prosperio, War of Secrets Devestation of Baal and Watchers on the throne ALL had some degee of resistance to Gulliman.

I really don't think some mild grumbling counts as resistance. It needs to be something substantial.

As I said, I don't mean there needs to be a full blown 'Ultramarian Heresy' (though that would be interesting!) but now all avenues of real friction are just squished. As people have pointed out, guilliman is a Primarch and a Saint, so naturally many people are going to defer to him. For this exact reason he needs some tarnish on his halo, so that he can be credibly challenged. Now the story is written so that a Living Saint, the Custodes, and Emperor himself just directly back him and he is given the highest office in the realm. And worst of all, the thing that could reasonably cause some serious doubt, the xenos involvement is not known, so that doesn't matter. They really could have allowed some nuance and subtlety. All direct involved from the Emperor should have obviously been avoided. It is a big part of the lore that his will is unknown and it is constantly debated and fought over by the Inquisition, the Ecclesiarchy and the High Lords. And the xeno plot should be known. I don't mean that the High Lords should have instantly declared him excommunicate traitoris for it, but it would have allowed some genuine doubt. He could have also been a high ranking military commander leading crusades without also being the highest ranking High Lord. It would have allowed interesting dynamic where the Lords of Terra try to keep Guilliman busy and please him enough that he won't cross the Rubicon while trying to guard their own power. Now he is basically the President-Pope Superman, with all the important players backing him. I really don't understand how people can find this interesting.

except I don't think he does need tarnish to his Halo. the Imperium of man has eneugh problems going for it that and endless sucession of little civil conflicts against Gulliman wouldn't IMHO add anything intreasting.

BrianDavion wrote:
except I don't think he does need tarnish to his Halo. the Imperium of man has eneugh problems going for it that and endless sucession of little civil conflicts against Gulliman wouldn't IMHO add anything intreasting.

So we fundamentally disagree. "The Imperium is besieged by all sorts of horrors, but big damns space marine heroes beat them back" is the tired storyline, and it doesn't become any more interesting if the space marine heroes are even bigger and shinier.

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
except I don't think he does need tarnish to his Halo. the Imperium of man has eneugh problems going for it that and endless sucession of little civil conflicts against Gulliman wouldn't IMHO add anything intreasting.

So we fundamentally disagree. "The Imperium is besieged by all sorts of horrors, but big damns space marine heroes beat them back" is the tired storyline, and it doesn't become any more interesting if the space marine heroes are even bigger and shinier.

Yep we disagree with you.

Marines are over done - yes - does it make a difference that the figurehead for the Imperium is a Primarch - no not really.

Does he wear shiny armour - er yeah but so do the Marines, the Custodes, the Sisters of Battle, quite a few Regiments of the Guard, various Rogue Traders, Inquisitors - its an Imperial thing.

Also RG has not beat the Chaos forces back - he is barely holding his own. as you should know,

Seriously can you answer the question - have you actually read any of the recent lore - it certainly does not appear so,

or are just expressing your continuing hatred of one character which could have its own thread - "Why I hate RG".

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

Sure, It doesn't need to be full blown civil war, but now we are so firmly in the "noble hero superfriends" territory that the middle ground is not even in the sight.

No we’re not. The factional differences and disputes that existed before the Gathering Storm are still there, with the addition of all the things I mentioned before. It’s just that they’re doing it in the shadows while Guilliman isn’t looking.

If you want more obvious infighting, then do it. Your models, your story.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

you keep insisting that it's eaither full fledged infighting with everyone hating each other or "noble hero superfriends" and it must be one or the other. I belive there is a middle ground.

Sure, It doesn't need to be full blown civil war, but now we are so firmly in the "noble hero superfriends" territory that the middle ground is not even in the sight.

No we’re not. The factional differences and disputes that existed before the Gathering Storm are still there, with the addition of all the things I mentioned before. It’s just that they’re doing it in the shadows while Guilliman isn’t looking.

If you want more obvious infighting, then do it. Your models, your story.

He is not listening and/or not reading our replies fully.

I have read the lore, I have read your replies. Guilliman is beating the enemies back same way this always happens. There is this biggest threat ever: Tyranids are unstoppable will eat the galaxy, but they won't, Abaddons Black Crusade will break the Imperium, but it won't, the Necrons will overwhelm the humanity, but they won't. I don't mean that the Imperium should be destroyed, merely that the conflicts with the foes without are ultimately way less interesting than with foes within.

And this 'yes there is conflict, really' is meaningless. Grumbling behind Guilliman's back is meaningless. He holds all the cards and seems to be sane and competent. As a result the Imperium is more unified and more coordinated than in thousands of years. This is boring direction.

 Crimson wrote:
I have read the lore, I have read your replies. Guilliman is beating the enemies back same way this always happens. There is this biggest threat ever: Tyranids are unstoppable will eat the galaxy, but they won't, Abaddons Black Crusade will break the Imperium, but it won't, the Necrons will overwhelm the humanity, but they won't. I don't mean that the Imperium should be destroyed, merely that the conflicts with the foes without are ultimately way less interesting than with foes within.

And this 'yes there is conflict, really' is meaningless. Grumbling behind Guilliman's back is meaningless. He holds all the cards and seems to be sane and competent. As a result the Imperium is more unified and more coordinated than in thousands of years. This is boring direction.

I fundamentally disagree with that premise. The fact that someone competent is in charge for a change is a really interesting new direction for the Imperium.

I fully expect things to go wrong down the line, which will have all the more impact because the Imperium could have taken a meaningful turn here.

It's a much more satisfying arc than all grimdark all the time would be, again and again.

But Crimson, if any of those xenos or chaos enemies actually win, there is no more W40k game, which is clearly never going to happen!

Abaddon's latest Black Crusade was not a final victory, but it has had huge ramifications for the whole galaxy. I was somewhat disappoinated at how the Tyranids were driven back from Baal, but its survival came at a huge cost.

There is dissent and sources of possible dissent brewing against Roboute Guilliman. There is still huge distrust in RG of Cawl, Calgar resents his new position, the Ecclesiarchy could easily turn on RG or vice versa, and so on. But these things are more interesting if they build up over time than if they are shoved down out throats at the first opportunity. The scene is being set, and whilst some things will be resolved, I am sure others will emerge and some of those being set up will escalate.

For example, how do you know that there will be no more appearances of Greyfax, and that she won't ultimately denounce RG and regret not doing so sooner?

 Fifty wrote:
But Crimson, if any of those xenos or chaos enemies actually win, there is no more W40k game, which is clearly never going to happen!

Abaddon's latest Black Crusade was not a final victory, but it has had huge ramifications for the whole galaxy. I was somewhat disappoinated at how the Tyranids were driven back from Baal, but its survival came at a huge cost.

I don't mean those enemy faction should win, at least to the extent that it would mean the destruction of the Imperium. I merely mean that those conflicts are really not that interesting itself, and the narrative is not improved by a bigger space marine hero fighting against a bigger daemon. Have you noticed that how in many zombie and monster films the focus is really on the internal dynamic of the group of people fighting against the monsters? In such films in addition to the external threat, there is also an internal one. The people tun on each other or there is some backstabbing donkey-cave in the group. The story is way more interesting that way, instead of merely being about how the heroes beat the monsters.

There is dissent and sources of possible dissent brewing against Roboute Guilliman. There is still huge distrust in RG of Cawl, Calgar resents his new position, the Ecclesiarchy could easily turn on RG or vice versa, and so on. But these things are more interesting if they build up over time than if they are shoved down out throats at the first opportunity. The scene is being set, and whilst some things will be resolved, I am sure others will emerge and some of those being set up will escalate.

Such developments would obviously be welcome, and would alter my assessment of the situation. I can only comment on how the story has been presented thus far.

For example, how do you know that there will be no more appearances of Greyfax, and that she won't ultimately denounce RG and regret not doing so sooner?

Yes, I'd love that. But have you noticed how there has been several pages of people saying how an Inquisitor absolutely cannot do such a thing?

Because One Inquiisitor simply can't do it on her own - in time she might (or might not) be part of a cabal that tries to do something but not yet.

Have you noticed that how in many zombie and monster films the focus is really on the internal dynamic of the group of people fighting against the monsters? In such films in addition to the external threat, there is also an internal one. The people tun on each other or there is some backstabbing donkey-cave in the group. The story is way more interesting that way, instead of merely being about how the heroes beat the monsters.

Yeah - Burke was a great character in Aliens - nicely done.

And sometimes they are just really anoying or stupid characters you are going, seriously wtf - what have we got this prat doing that for!

Case in point is the last series of GOT,



Also remember that if the story of 40k is a film then this is a snap shot of a single moment in a single scene - and you are judging it on that.

 Crimson wrote:

Yes, I'd love that. But have you noticed how there has been several pages of people saying how an Inquisitor absolutely cannot do such a thing?

That's a gross misrepresentation of our position I'm afraid.

We're saying a SINGLE inquisitor, acting without the support of others of similar de facto power, cannot do it.

If a cabal led by an Inquisitor, with support of some High lords, most of the ecclesiarchy, maybe even some Space Marines with a grudge banded together it could absolutely happen!

 Mr Morden wrote:
Because One Inquiisitor simply can't do it on her own - in time she might (or might not) be part of a cabal that tries to do something but not yet.

Which is why I said on page two of this thread:

 Crimson wrote:

Furthermore, a single inquisitor alone could obviously not challenge Guilliman. It would require the Inquisition as a group, working together with other factions and people who were threatened by Guilliman upsetting the status quo.

Yeah - Burke was a great character in Aliens - nicely done.

And sometimes they are just really anoying or stupid characters you are going, seriously wtf - what have we got this prat doing that for!

Case in point is the last series of GOT,

Spoiler:

Cersei has been a good villian but they had a great moment where she seemingly offers peace (for now) to deal with the vast army of the dead............ but then they just have her revert to type when watching the "heroes" have to work with the "villian" wuld have been really intersting IMO. Is still a million times better than the books but I did find this a little disapointing.

Well, it is important to set believable motivations for those characters who tun against others. That's why I kept harping about that xeno-necromancy thing, as that could certainly work as such motivation for certain people and factions to turn against Guilliman.

Also remember that if the story of 40k is a film then this is a snap shot of a single moment in a single scene - and you are judging it on that.

Of course. And I'm willing to revise my judgement if the situation improves.

To get back on topic....

No one Inquisitor could go against Guilliman.

Not only is he the God Emperor’s Son, but his record is frankly beyond reproach, not to mention legendary. He set up Ultramar, a well known and respected enclave within the Imperium. He fought during the Crusade, Heresy and lead The Scouring.

He’s not just a ‘man’, but a living legend of ridiculous tactical acumen. He ensured the Legions were broken down to prevent another Heresy on the same scale.

He has only ever been a hero of the Imperium.

Anyone going against him would be consider petty and jealous, perhaps fearful of losing their own power.

Not to mention he’s leading the new Crusade, and with success (even before you factor in Imperial Propaganda).

Regardless of how he was returned to the fold, you just cannot stand in opposition to him. Do so, and you’re far more likely to be suspected of Heresy, rightly or wrongly. And let’s face it, with how the Inquisition actually works, someone somewhere will be all to happy to provide damning evidence against you.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

He’s not just a ‘man’, but a living legend of ridiculous tactical acumen. He ensured the Legions were broken down to prevent another Heresy on the same scale.

Indeed!

"No one should have the authority to command the might of a full space marine legion. Oh, now install me as the highest authority of the whole Imperium and master of all its armies!"

He is truly a master tactician, as he succeeded in which Horus failed: taking over the Imperium!

He’s taking the reins in a time of extreme strife, on account of being the singularly best placed to do so.

Now, if he does a Palpatine once things are stabilised? Who knows.

But remember, he’s also the greatest Statesman humanity has ever seen - greater than even The Emperor in that regard. If he doesn’t abuse his position, why not have him lead the High Lords?

 Crimson wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

He’s not just a ‘man’, but a living legend of ridiculous tactical acumen. He ensured the Legions were broken down to prevent another Heresy on the same scale.

Indeed!

"No one should have the authority to command the might of a full space marine legion. Oh, now install me as the highest authority of the whole Imperium and master of all its armies!"

He is truly a master tactician, as he succeeded in which Horus failed: taking over the Imperium!

Question - what was he supposed to do when he was awoken? I don;t really see what else he could have done......He doesn't want the job, but there is no one else to do it.

As you repeatedly said the Imperium is in a terrrible state - realistically - saying "oh Well just carry on then guys" was not an option.

Comparing him to Horus is a bit pathetic, if he wanted to take over he could have done after the HH.

Also its better than GW just churning out models for the same old snowflake Marine Chapters.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
He’s taking the reins in a time of extreme strife, on account of being the singularly best placed to do so.

Now, if he does a Palpatine once things are stabilised? Who knows.

But remember, he’s also the greatest Statesman humanity has ever seen - greater than even The Emperor in that regard. If he doesn’t abuse his position, why not have him lead the High Lords?

Well, I don't know... Why were other loyalist primarchs assumed to abuse their (way lesser) position? Why it so happens that the guy who invents the idea that others should give up their power is the only one who can trusted with (far greater) power? Seem pretty convenient to me.

This would be a reason for all non-Ultra space marines (and Ultras who have a shred of decency and are ashamed of their founders blatant hypocrisy) to distrust Guilliman.

Oh just stop. Please.

Which other loyalist Primarchs ‘were assumed to abuse their position’?

Seriously, that’s a new one on me.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Question - what was he supposed to do when he was awoken? I don;t really see what else he could have done......He doesn't want the job, but there is no one else to do it.

As you repeatedly said the Imperium is in a terrrible state - realistically - saying "oh Well just carry on then guys" was not an option.

What did other loyalist Primarch do after Guilliman had stripped them of their autority? Lead their chapters as generals. He could have put his tactical acumen in use without assuming a politiacal position. But he did not do this after the Heresy either, so this hypocrisy already originated then, so in that sense I didn't expect him to behave any differently now.

Comparing him to Horus is a bit pathetic, if he wanted to take over he could have done after the HH.

He did take over after the HH! He has the exact same position he assumed after the Emperor was out of the picture. "Oops, I was late to save you dad, I guess have to take over!" Too bad the other Primarch were pussies and let him get away with it, but then again, it is understandable that they didn't want to start another civil war just after the Heresy.

Guilliman would actually make an absolutely amazing villain, if GW would have balls to depict him as such.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh just stop. Please.

Which other loyalist Primarchs ‘were assumed to abuse their position’?

Seriously, that’s a new one on me.

That is Guilliman's whole rationale for breaking the Legions! No one man, not even a Primarch, should be trusted with such authority... Except Guilliman himself...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
To get back on topic....

No one Inquisitor could go against Guilliman.

Not only is he the God Emperor’s Son, but his record is frankly beyond reproach, not to mention legendary. He set up Ultramar, a well known and respected enclave within the Imperium. He fought during the Crusade, Heresy and lead The Scouring.

He’s not just a ‘man’, but a living legend of ridiculous tactical acumen. He ensured the Legions were broken down to prevent another Heresy on the same scale.

He has only ever been a hero of the Imperium.

Anyone going against him would be consider petty and jealous, perhaps fearful of losing their own power.

Not to mention he’s leading the new Crusade, and with success (even before you factor in Imperial Propaganda).

Regardless of how he was returned to the fold, you just cannot stand in opposition to him. Do so, and you’re far more likely to be suspected of Heresy, rightly or wrongly. And let’s face it, with how the Inquisition actually works, someone somewhere will be all to happy to provide damning evidence against you.

I dunno, Populace in the Imperium are mostly depicted as a fearful and suspicious lot - stereotypical uneducated medieval folk. Imperium has no reliable and fast means of communication or travel, with worlds going years, decades or even centuries without contact with another imperial world. I could easily see a lot of people initially questioning the claims of a Primarchs miraculous return, and remaining a bit suspicious of him even after it is confirmed after who knows how long time.

Don't forget that Imperium is depicted as a medievally religious place, so faith is a VERY important thing, to a point which us 21st century people can hardly even understand. No doubt ecumenical depates over Guilliman place in Imperiums religious life must have raged for a long time. Entire religious sects must have risen, ones that either support him with extreme acts or that see him as a fraud or an anti-christ like figure that has come to fool the faithful. Civil unrest and wars must have raged on more religious parts of the Imperium over his return, imperial world declaring crusades against each other over varying opinions, with the Ecclesiarchys top brass being stuck between their vigilant peers and the restless masses.

I do hope we see how Primarchs return affects that side of the Imperium, since religiousness has always been an interesting and an important aspect of it - even though it's usually only used to shout "HERESY!!"

Guilliman might make an interesting villain, but that'd be a boring story. There's fifty novels from Black Library that are telling that story already, why do it again?
It's explored in Dark Imperium that the Second Founding, the creation of the High Lords of Terra, the disbanding of Greater Ultramar was done partly in a sort of post-traumatic state of emergency and partly because he thought (or wanted to think) that the Heresy was over, that the Crusade could begin again and that the major Chaos threat had been defeated. Now, ten millennia later he returns and sees that he was wrong; the post-Heresy reforms have simply resulted in a divided and weakened Imperium, and the threat he thought defeated has been regrouping all along. If Guilliman hadn't been nearly killed by Fulgrim, then I think Guilliman would have instigated these same changes much earlier.

Back on topic, you'd need to find a sufficiently large cabal of Inquisitors who are basically heretics. Remember, the Imperial Creed is just as strong in the Inquisition as it is in every other area of Imperial society (after all, Inquisitors are recruited from the Imperium, so that's obvious). There's no reason to think they'd be any less likely, as a group, to accept the miracle of the rebirth of one of His Holy Majesty's sons.

Why would he be a villain, He has been consistently written as a strong statesman who was loyal to the idea of the IOM. Even in the heresy novels when he founds a new Imperium he doesn't take the crown. He shares it with Sang and the Lion. Also he wasn't late to saving dad, the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultras make a deliberate decision based on the situation for the BA to get to Terra while the UM and DA hold the line and distract the traitors. As for him taking over, both times he's done that he was reluctant to do so but pretty much had no real choice. Of the loyalists left after the Heresy we have Russ, Corvax, Dorn, maybe Vulkan and the Khan.

Russ is many things but a stateman and administrator isn't one of them. Corvax and the Khan also were not big on running the whole show, Vulkan might not have even been around and by that point didn't even want to lead his own legion. That leave Bobby G and Dorn. Dorn decided to run off and get most of his Legion killed due to his guilt and thoughts of failure.

So even back then it was always going to fall to him to keep it going. Now fast forward 10k years, things are worse than ever, all his brothers are dead or missing, he's openly stated he's tired and really doesn't want to deal with any of this but carries on because without him Humanity is likely doomed. He's actually a pretty compelling character but you keep assuming that anything that isn't the IOM is screwed for ever is simplistic and bad.

Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:


I dunno, Populace in the Imperium are mostly depicted as a fearful and suspicious lot - stereotypical uneducated medieval folk. Imperium has no reliable and fast means of communication or travel, with worlds going years, decades or even centuries without contact with another imperial world. I could easily see a lot of people initially questioning the claims of a Primarchs miraculous return, and remaining a bit suspicious of him even after it is confirmed after who knows how long time.

Don't forget that Imperium is depicted as a medievally religious place, so faith is a VERY important thing, to a point which us 21st century people can hardly even understand. No doubt ecumenical depates over Guilliman place in Imperiums religious life must have raged for a long time. Entire religious sects must have risen, ones that either support him with extreme acts or that see him as a fraud or an anti-christ like figure that has come to fool the faithful. Civil unrest and wars must have raged on more religious parts of the Imperium over his return, imperial world declaring crusades against each other over varying opinions, with the Ecclesiarchys top brass being stuck between their vigilant peers and the restless masses.

I do hope we see how Primarchs return affects that side of the Imperium, since religiousness has always been an interesting and an important aspect of it - even though it's usually only used to shout "HERESY!!"

Yeah, this is good stuff. This is the sort of thing that I was getting to when I said it matters much more what people believe than how things are.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Why would he be a villain, He has been consistently written as a strong statesman who was loyal to the idea of the IOM. Even in the heresy novels when he founds a new Imperium he doesn't take the crown. He shares it with Sang and the Lion. Also he wasn't late to saving dad, the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultras make a deliberate decision based on the situation for the BA to get to Terra while the UM and DA hold the line and distract the traitors. As for him taking over, both times he's done that he was reluctant to do so but pretty much had no real choice. Of the loyalists left after the Heresy we have Russ, Corvax, Dorn, maybe Vulkan and the Khan.

Russ is many things but a stateman and administrator isn't one of them. Corvax and the Khan also were not big on running the whole show, Vulkan might not have even been around and by that point didn't even want to lead his own legion. That leave Bobby G and Dorn. Dorn decided to run off and get most of his Legion killed due to his guilt and thoughts of failure.

So even back then it was always going to fall to him to keep it going. Now fast forward 10k years, things are worse than ever, all his brothers are dead or missing, he's openly stated he's tired and really doesn't want to deal with any of this but carries on because without him Humanity is likely doomed. He's actually a pretty compelling character but you keep assuming that anything that isn't the IOM is screwed for ever is simplistic and bad.

He can pretend that he doesn't like being in charge, but he is in charge. He explicitly forbade his brothers from having similar (or actually way lesser) authority. That is rank hypocrisy however you look at it. If he truly believes that no one should have such authority, he should decline such a leadership position and accept the consequences. (Imperium survived several thousand years without him, so I'm sure they could manage a couple of more without him telling everyone what to do.) Or if he doesn't believe that, he should not have broken up the legions.

 Crimson wrote:
That is rank hypocrisy however you look at it. If he truly believes that no one should have such authority, he should decline such a leadership position and accept the consequences. (Imperium survived several thousand years without him, so I'm sure they could manage a couple of more without him telling everyone what to do.) Or if he doesn't believe that, he should not have broken up the legions.

It's actually only hypocrisy if he takes command of the Imperium whilst simultaneously believing no one man should ever be in charge. You're taking a snapshot of his thoughts at one specific point in time (immediately post-Heresy) and assuming it remains his viewpoint ten millennia later. Which, considering the established story, is factually incorrect.

People are allowed to change their minds without being hypocrites. People are also allowed to make mistakes and adjust their opinion to changed circumstances.

When Guilliman wrote the Codex Astartes and pushed to have the legions broken up, he believed it was the only way to ensure the stability of the Imperium. He broke up the Legions, and contrary to what you posted above, continued to lead the Ultramarines into battle personally. He retained the head of the Lordship of Terra, but didn't occupy it as a rule of thumb. It's why he was out hunting for Alpharius, and managed to get wounded by Fulgrim in the first place. He clearly thought that the remaining number of marines would be sufficient to safeguard the Imperium's interests.

Two and a half thousand years later, the War of the Beast proved him horrendously wrong. He wasn't there to see it, but he was wrong. And in ensuing time, more threats still have arisen. The Tyranids, the return of the Silent King, the Cicatrix Maledictum. The Imperium's position is not what it was before, Humanity's enemies are not what they were before, and no more of his loyalist brothers remain to fear another split. Looking over the history compiled by his new chroniclers, Guilliman will have ascertained that things are different, and his solution insufficient. And so his response has altered in kind.

Theoretical: Humanity is now surrounded by extinction level threats, a dispersed and broken command structure exists, and no Primarch insurrection is possible in the forseeable future.
Practical: Secure control of existing infrastructure, marshal necessary resources, streamline command structure, and establish coherent strategical oversight and direction.

 Ketara wrote:
It's actually only hypocrisy if he takes command of the Imperium whilst simultaneously believing no one man should ever be in charge. You're taking a snapshot of his thoughts at one specific point in time (immediately post-Heresy) and assuming it remains his viewpoint ten millennia later. Which, considering the established story, is factually incorrect.

But he became the the Lord Commander and a High Lord right after the Heresy (the same position he has now.) That's when the Legions were broken.

Oh, and if people think I try to paint him in questionable light because I don't like him, that is kinda true, but not in the obvious way. I would actually like him way more, if he clearly was a lying manipulative donkey-cave executing a tactical and ruthless power grab while cloaking himself in false honour. I could respect that. It would be twisted and grimdark. But this noble hero bs is just nauseating.

Congratulations on making this the most depressing thread I’ve ever encpuntered.

Top marks.

12/10.

Well done you.

 Crimson wrote:

But he became the the Lord Commander and a High Lord right after the Heresy (the same position he has now.) That's when the Legions were broken.

And functioned as merely one of the High Lords. Not as sole dictator, not as voice of the Emperor, not even as the Head of any of the great departments. The 'Lord Guilliman' position (as it became known) was effectively that of a Chairman on a company board. In other words, the bloke who calls the meeting to account, ennumerates the business of the day, and makes public statements on behalf of the Board. And as stated, he wasn't even there to do that most of the time; it was a ceremonial title.

There's no hypocrisy or conflict with him assuming that role and simultaneously believing that no one man should rule the Imperium; however much you might wish it.

 Ketara wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

But he became the the Lord Commander and a High Lord right after the Heresy (the same position he has now.) That's when the Legions were broken.

And functioned as merely one of the High Lords. Not as sole dictator, not as voice of the Emperor, not even as the Head of any of the great departments. The 'Lord Guilliman' position (as it became known) was effectively that of a Chairman on a company board. In other words, the bloke who calls the meeting to account, ennumerates the business of the day, and makes public statements.

There's no hypocrisy or conflict with him assuming that role and simultaneously believing that no one man should rule the Imperium; however much you might wish it.

It is the same position he has now and gives him command of all of Imperium's armed forces, certainly a position far more powerful than a leader of single legion.

Guilliman has taken over the Imperium before, in the aftermath of the Heresy (as the titular Lord Guilliman). The thing that makes him not a hypocrite? He actually stepped down from power, and lived up to his word.

He stabilised the Imperium, abdicated, and then got taken down by Fulgrim.
He fully admits that he made errors, but he knows that the best thing he can do (and Guilliman is nothing if not pragmatic) is take control again and slap some heads together. When he knows things are safe, will he step down again? Probably, but maybe that's where your "villainous" Guilliman might come in.

The problem is that you're trying to inject a degree of grimdark into a character who has been consistently on the right side of things (in intent, at least), whilst ignoring the flaws of that character, and their own moral issues (working with the Ecclesiarchy, dealing with the knowledge that his "father" doesn't care at all about him, seeing his works and species fail and falter, and the knoweldge that what he's doing is precisely what he wanted to avoid).
A story isn't worse for having morally pure and noble characters. Nor does having those characters detract from a gritty and "grimdark" setting. In many cases, having those characters can ENHANCE the grimdark and fatalistic setting.

The Lord of the Rings works well due to the contrast of the pure and innocent Hobbits against characters hungry for power: Gollum/Smeagol, Denethor, Saruman, and Sauron. The evil in that is contrasted by a good force, and that enhances the evil. 40k, before the Gathering Storm, was getting too close to a point where, because there was no actual contrast, and everyone was evil, humanity was DOOOOOOOOOOOMED, the setting had no real tension. It was just a slope downwards into darkness.

Now, it's far more tense, with Chaos and the xenos forces gaining ground against a weakened Imperium, but the Imperium is renewed with new vigor, resolve, and an actual figurehead with internal miring and conflict (not war-conflict, but thought-conflict).

The aforementioned Theoretical/Practical quote is fantastic. It's exactly what must be going on for Guilliman in his head.

Firstly, he's now 'Imperial Regent', not 'Lord Guilliman' (the Lordship for that position/job role fell out of use after the War of the Beast). Secondly, the position did not entail the responsibilities he currently holds now back then (making it impossible to have forseen what would result from his being amongst the Lords of Terra). Thirdly, his current power derives from his solely representing the direct authority of the Emperor; something he did not possess then.

I repeat, you are taking a snapshot of his thoughts on administrative structure from 30K, and applying it to a completely different scenario in 40K. His position is not the same, the Imperium's structure is not the same, and the Universe generally is not the same.

Him splitting up the legions isn't remotely the same as him heading the Imperium though. The legions were split so that if corruption took hold it would be more isolated. So they'd only have to deal with ~1000 marines instead of ~100,000. It's not so much him not wanting one man to have too much power as it is having fail safes so that if one man succumbs he doesn't take half the Imperium with him. It's risk management. Sure he could theoretically get turned to chaos while leading the Imperium and take the whole thing down with him but someone has to be in charge. If there isn't a leader the Imperium will just implode into civil war.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The problem is that you're trying to inject a degree of grimdark into a character who has been consistently on the right side of things (in intent, at least), whilst ignoring the flaws of that character, and their own moral issues

This, in a nutshell. Guilliman has his flaws. He has little imagination compared to his brothers, he wants to render everything down to numbers and figures. He's not the most powerful fighter, and he's willing to morally compromise to get his way. He's a sore loser. I could go on, but the point is made. Trying to say he's all either a hypocrite or noblebright is just denying the complexity of the existing character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman has taken over the Imperium before, in the aftermath of the Heresy (as the titular Lord Guilliman). The thing that makes him not a hypocrite? He actually stepped down from power, and lived up to his word.

He stabilised the Imperium, abdicated, and then got taken down by Fulgrim.

Did he step down? Could you elaborate on that?

The problem is that you're trying to inject a degree of grimdark into a character who has been consistently on the right side of things (in intent, at least), whilst ignoring the flaws of that character, and their own moral issues (working with the Ecclesiarchy, dealing with the knowledge that his "father" doesn't care at all about him, seeing his works and species fail and falter, and the knoweldge that what he's doing is precisely what he wanted to avoid).
A story isn't worse for having morally pure and noble characters. Nor does having those characters detract from a gritty and "grimdark" setting. In many cases, having those characters can ENHANCE the grimdark and fatalistic setting.

Not if those characters are big damn heroes who succeed and rule the whole damn thing. Heroism is for guardsmen who die a miserable death, unsung and unremembered. Guilliman is a boring character, he is a invincible honourable superguy who has been given the highest authority in the setting and he even has audacity to angst about it.

The Lord of the Rings works well due to the contrast of the pure and innocent Hobbits against characters hungry for power: Gollum/Smeagol, Denethor, Saruman, and Sauron. The evil in that is contrasted by a good force, and that enhances the evil. 40k, before the Gathering Storm, was getting too close to a point where, because there was no actual contrast, and everyone was evil, humanity was DOOOOOOOOOOOMED, the setting had no real tension. It was just a slope downwards into darkness.

Everyone being evil, was the fething point! As much as I like Middle-Earh 40K should not be that sort of setting where there are clear good guys, it ruins the whole bloody thing.

 Ketara wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

The problem is that you're trying to inject a degree of grimdark into a character who has been consistently on the right side of things (in intent, at least), whilst ignoring the flaws of that character, and their own moral issues

This, in a nutshell. Guilliman has his flaws. He has little imagination compared to his brothers, he wants to render everything down to numbers and figures. He's not the most powerful fighter, and he's willing to morally compromise to get his way. He's a sore loser. I could go on, but the point is made. Trying to say he's all either a hypocrite or noblebright is just denying the complexity of the existing character.

Agreed - lots of great replies here and from Sgt_Smudge

 Ketara wrote:
Firstly, he's now 'Imperial Regent', not 'Lord Guilliman' (the Lordship for that position/job role fell out of use after the War of the Beast). Secondly, the position did not entail the responsibilities he currently holds now back then (making it impossible to have forseen what would result from his being amongst the Lords of Terra). Thirdly, his current power derives from his solely representing the direct authority of the Emperor; something he did not possess then.

I repeat, you are taking a snapshot of his thoughts on administrative structure from 30K, and applying it to a completely different scenario in 40K. His position is not the same, the Imperium's structure is not the same, and the Universe generally is not the same.

The Regent thing is not mentioned in any of the studio material, only in the BL books. All studio material just refer him as Lord Commander of the Imperium. Regardless, Lord Commander is certainly an authority level comparable to a leader of a legion, and arguably far greater.

 Crimson wrote:

The Regent thing is not mentioned in any of the studio material, only in the BL books. All studio material just refer him as Lord Commander of the Imperium. Regardless, Lord Commander is certainly an authority level comparable to a leader of a legion, and arguably far greater.

Errr...so? He's in charge of Imperium now, yes. He wasn't before. The position/duties he held then and the one he holds now are not comparable (either in title or execution). His views then and now have changed. The situation then and now are different.

When he sat as the Lord Guilliman in 30K, he drew up minutes in between charging off to fight in various corners (when I imagine the machinery worked just fine without him, given he didn't actually run any department). I daresay Dorn, Corax, or Russ would have been accorded a similar empty accolade/position on the Council of Terra if they'd wanted it. But none of them did. Crikey, given that he was wandering off to hunt his brothers and lead campaigns, I can't imagine he was having much fun or wielding any substantive power there.

When you get right down to it, he's obviously the man to be providing strategic oversight and streamlining resource management; he can do it better than anyone. What he really needs is another two brothers to come back; Imperium secundus style. Then he can get on with the business of keeping the gears grinding, a better fighter/tactical operative than him can take the frontline, and a third can play figurehead. If Vulkan and the Khan returned tomorrow, I daresay he'd cede the position at the top and at the front in a minute.

 Ketara wrote:


Errr...so? He's in charge of Imperium now, yes. He wasn't before. The position/duties he held then and the one he holds now are not comparable (either in title or execution). His views then and now have changed. The situation then and now are different.

When he sat as the Lord Guilliman in 30K, he drew up minutes in between charging off to fight in various corners (when I imagine the machinery worked just fine without him, given he didn't actually run any department). I daresay Dorn, Corax, or Russ would have been accorded a similar empty accolade/position on the Council of Terra if they'd wanted it. But none of them did. Crikey, given that he was wandering off to hunt his brothers and lead campaigns, I can't imagine he was having much fun or spending much time there.

As far as the studio fluff is considered his position is identical to what the held when he was last around. Lord Commander of the Imperium was then, as it is now the leader of all Imperium's armed forces. Isn't it pretty clear that is position greater than a leader of a single legion?

When you get right down to it, he's obviously the man to be providing strategic oversight and streamlining resource management. What he really needs is another two brothers to come back; Imperium secundus style. Then he can get on with the business of keeping the gears grinding, a better fighter/tactical operative than him can take the frontline, and a third can play figurehead. If Vulkan and the Khan returned tomorrow, I daresay he'd cede the position at the top and at the front in a minute.

Oh yes, here is again the narrative where only a Primarch can accomplish anything of value.

Let’s just all agree to pop him on ignore?

 Crimson wrote:

As far as the studio fluff is considered his position is identical to what the held when he was last around. Lord Commander of the Imperium was then, as it is now the leader of all Imperium's armed forces. Isn't it pretty clear that is position greater than a leader of a single legion?

Sorry, just to clarify here; because I want to understand if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Given that Guilliman:

i) clearly wasn't directing the collective forces of the Imperium post-Heresy,
ii) wasn't claiming to speak for the Emperor post-Heresy,
iii) claimed no prerogative above his brothers or the Lords of Terra collectively post-Heresy,
iv) had no successor of his formal seat/position do any of the above either

With all that, are you actually trying to say that the position Guilliman occupied immediately post-Heresy is the same (meaning the same in all respects) identical formal position as the one he has now in 40K?

Oh yes, here is again the narrative where only a Primarch can accomplish anything of value.

Please don't put words into my mouth. It only makes you look disingenuous.

Guilliman is a superhuman with a level of strategic cognition and acumen far above that of any other remaining Imperial servant. He also has considerably more experience than any other, and can function as a religious icon in the way no other competitior currently can. He is therefore the obvious theoretical choice for piecing the Imperium back together at this point given existing options.

 Ketara wrote:


Sorry, just to clarify here; because I want to understand if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Given that Guilliman:

i) clearly wasn't directing the collective forces of the Imperium post-Heresy,
ii) wasn't claiming to speak for the Emperor post-Heresy,
iii) claimed no prerogative above his brothers or the Lords of Terra collectively post-Heresy,
iv) had no successor of his formal seat/position do any of the above either

With all that, are you actually trying to say that the position Guilliman occupied immediately post-Heresy is the same (meaning the same in all respects) identical formal position as the one he has now in 40K?

He had the same position (Lord Commander of the Imperium, the Chairman of the High Lords of Terra) which had the same de jure authority. Regardless of whether he has more authority now (in practice he definitely does, even if we ignore the Regent thing) he still had greater authority already in 30K era than the leader of a single legion. Do you not accept that this is true? Do you not think that the Lord Commander of the Imperium and the Chairman of the High Lords of Terra is a position of greater authority than the leadership of a single Space Marine legion?

EDITING

What he's doing right now though is essentially what the Emperor tried to do, see humanity through the storm and get things running smoothly so humanity can be governed by humans. Currently however, the IOM really does need a primarch to help them get it together. It needed at least 18 and the Emperor to get started and to think that anyone short of one of the Emperors sons is going to be up to the job post cadia falling and the universe getting cut in half by a warp river is silly.

It's been shown in multiple stories from the Rise of the Primarch to Dark Imperium, that no Bobby G really doesn't want the job. He's tired of all this, which gather storm makes clear. He's (rightfully) horrified and disappointed what the IOM has become with out proper guidance and is doing his best to try and reform what he can while navigating the complex nature of the Imperium.

His defining trait, more than any other Primarch is that he is dedicated to the Imperium and humanity as a whole. The Horus Heresy novels make it clear that he got the Emperor's vision more than most of his brothers and that's why his legion was more than just conquerors, they also made sure before they left that the planets they took over had a useful society. He's exactly what the IOM needs right now, which is why the Eldar did what they did. The Eldar needs the IOM to help them fight chaos. I actually find that the Eldar are starting have issues with how much Yvraine is helping him a pretty interesting story down the road as well.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Guilliman has taken over the Imperium before, in the aftermath of the Heresy (as the titular Lord Guilliman). The thing that makes him not a hypocrite? He actually stepped down from power, and lived up to his word.

He stabilised the Imperium, abdicated, and then got taken down by Fulgrim.

Did he step down? Could you elaborate on that?

Considering that we don't see him in that position during Thessala, it is logical to assume he stepped down from the mantle, and gave supreme power to the High Lords of Terra.

Not if those characters are big damn heroes who succeed and rule the whole damn thing. Heroism is for guardsmen who die a miserable death, unsung and unremembered. Guilliman is a boring character, he is a invincible honourable superguy who has been given the highest authority in the setting and he even has audacity to angst about it.

Boring in your opinion. Just because you overlook the depth to the character doesn't mean it's not there.

And yes, look at all that big hero succeeding! Cadia totally didn't fall! The Beheading never happened! The Emperor wasn't interred in the Golden Throne! The Tau Empire didn't force the Imperium out of the Damocles Gulf! Half the galaxy isn't split from the other by a massive warp storm! The Imperium has no external threats to worry about!
Heroism is for anyone. Saying that only guardsmen can be heroic is incredibly just... wrong.

What you want from the setting isn't what's portrayed in it.

The Lord of the Rings works well due to the contrast of the pure and innocent Hobbits against characters hungry for power: Gollum/Smeagol, Denethor, Saruman, and Sauron. The evil in that is contrasted by a good force, and that enhances the evil. 40k, before the Gathering Storm, was getting too close to a point where, because there was no actual contrast, and everyone was evil, humanity was DOOOOOOOOOOOMED, the setting had no real tension. It was just a slope downwards into darkness.

Everyone being evil, was the fething point! As much as I like Middle-Earh 40K should not be that sort of setting where there are clear good guys, it ruins the whole bloody thing.

But it stands true. Having morally good characters amplifies the evilness of others. What's the point of having a character like Cersei Lannister without an Eddard Stark to stand diametrically opposed? Game of Thrones would be hardly as interesting if EVERYONE was an incestuous, murdering, backstabbing, megalomaniac. LOTR wouldn't be as gripping if Sauron was only marginally worse than the people of Gondor, who now use Hobbits as slaves and the Hobbits themselves are bloodthirsty savages.

Adding a character with a moral compass, and a well meaning (but not always successful) intent amplifies the conflict against the people who ARE NOT that.

Crimson wrote:

 Ketara wrote:


Sorry, just to clarify here; because I want to understand if you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Given that Guilliman:

i) clearly wasn't directing the collective forces of the Imperium post-Heresy,
ii) wasn't claiming to speak for the Emperor post-Heresy,
iii) claimed no prerogative above his brothers or the Lords of Terra collectively post-Heresy,
iv) had no successor of his formal seat/position do any of the above either

With all that, are you actually trying to say that the position Guilliman occupied immediately post-Heresy is the same (meaning the same in all respects) identical formal position as the one he has now in 40K?

He had the same position (Lord Commander of the Imperium, the Chairman of the High Lords of Terra) which had the same de jure authority. Regardless of whether he has more authority now (in practice he definitely does, even if we ignore the Regent thing) he still had greater authority already in 30K era than the leader of a single legion. Do you not accept that this is true? Do you not think that the Lord Commander of the Imperium and the Chairman of the High Lords of Terra is a position of greater authority than the leadership of a single Space Marine legion?

Guilliman has more power than a "standard" Primarch (wow, can't believe I'm having to say standard and Primarch together). However, this is NOT because Guilliman wanted, planned, or sought after this power and position.

Much like in Imperium Secundus, Guilliman is trying to make the best solution for the wider Imperium. Factually (please try to disprove this) he is the most competent person in the setting to rule the Imperium as it stands. He KNOWS this. Therefore, if his goal is to better the Imperium and humanity by extension, he has to sacrifice his own morals to have the best chance of saving the Imperium.

If you(for example) had previously said "I'd never work for a global corporation, I disagree with them entirely", and then, the only job you could sustainably provide for yourself, your family, your loved ones, was via working for a global corporation, would you do it? If you held to your anti-corp morals, you'd be letting down not only yourself, but the people you care most about. Or, you break them, to do more good.

That's what Guilliman's doing, and I don't think that's bad at all, narratively or in setting.

 Stux wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Yes, I'd love that. But have you noticed how there has been several pages of people saying how an Inquisitor absolutely cannot do such a thing?

That's a gross misrepresentation of our position I'm afraid.

We're saying a SINGLE inquisitor, acting without the support of others of similar de facto power, cannot do it.

If a cabal led by an Inquisitor, with support of some High lords, most of the ecclesiarchy, maybe even some Space Marines with a grudge banded together it could absolutely happen!

Indeed, I'd have BTW made the same argument if the post had simply asked "could an Inqusistor exercise power against ANY of the High Lords?"