120675
Post by: chimera0205
As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.
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Post by: Dandelion
Generally speaking the Kroot like to keep things close to the chest and so there's a lot of stuff the kroot do/know that the Tau are unaware of. Keep in mind that the kroot have never actually explained to the tau how they build their ships...
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Post by: Voss
Well, they don't really have noses either.
But fully entering a dimension they can't really perceive and is absurdly dangerous is a terrible plan. That they'd trust that the kroot can just 'sniff out' planets is... unlikely. They're rational creatures that would want significant testing and reliable data.
Plus, aside from dangerously overextending their fleets and putting them at risk, what does spreading out faster actually do for the Tau?
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Post by: chimera0205
Dandelion wrote:Generally speaking the Kroot like to keep things close to the chest and so there's a lot of stuff the kroot do/know that the Tau are unaware of. Keep in mind that the kroot have never actually explained to the tau how they build their ships...
but....WHYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!! think of how much both species would benefit. the tau mastering warp technology would massively increase there ability to project force and the Kroot essentially becoming the Taus equivalent to Navigators would massively increase there standing in the Tau empire Automatically Appended Next Post: Voss wrote:Well, they don't really have noses either.
But fully entering a dimension they can't really perceive and is absurdly dangerous is a terrible plan. That they'd trust that the kroot can just 'sniff out' planets is... unlikely. They're rational creatures that would want significant testing and reliable data.
Plus, aside from dangerously overextending their fleets and putting them at risk, what does spreading out faster actually do for the Tau?
Significant testing and reliable data like the thousands of years that the kroot have been reliably using there war spheres? or does that not count for some reason? also how does faster travel ever not good for a civilization. even if they stopped expanding today bieng able to cut a year long journey across theempire to a month long journey is a massive boon or obvious reasons
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Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
The Kroot won't share the technology. And the Tau ultimately have no way of figuring it out. They're just not psychic enough. And they really, really don't understand The Warp. Like, at all.
Crucially, their current propulsion is ultimately reliable. And that's what you really want when considering galactic travel.
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Post by: Tiennos
I'm saying this from memory so don't quote me on that, but I think the kroot used to do a lot more space exploration until something(?) happened and they decided to give up on a lot of their technology.
If they decided that it was better no to mess with warp stuff, it seems logical that they don't want to teach others how to do it.
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Post by: Grimtuff
They have though. It was the fourth sphere expansion and they went in with no Gellar Field.
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Post by: Morgasm the Powerfull
Tiennos wrote:I'm saying this from memory so don't quote me on that, but I think the kroot used to do a lot more space exploration until something(?) happened and they decided to give up on a lot of their technology.
If they decided that it was better no to mess with warp stuff, it seems logical that they don't want to teach others how to do it.
One version explains that they stopped using most of their tech in their daily lives after an Ork invasion of their homeworld, thinking that over reliance on it is making them soft.
Another version is that they never really gave up any of their tech, as much as they never used that much to begin with, that they just like to make do with the bare minimum in any give situation.
Whatever the case they never gave up on space travel though, and can be found as far as segmentum obscurus. Thats kinda the thing with Kroot, they seem to be primitive but are in fact in many ways more advanced and cosmopolitan than the Tau.
Tau have a lower tech ceiling but use all of it all the time, while Kroot have a much greater theoretical understanding of technology but put it to use sparingly.
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Post by: Sterling191
 Grimtuff wrote:They have though. It was the fourth sphere expansion and they went in with no Gellar Field.
Which ended up being a *complete* disaster, to the point that all involved were damn near euthanized.
Tau FTL may not be as flashy as Warp-space travel, but it's reliable, it's safe, and it gets the job done.
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Post by: Tiennos
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote:Tiennos wrote:I'm saying this from memory so don't quote me on that, but I think the kroot used to do a lot more space exploration until something(?) happened and they decided to give up on a lot of their technology.
If they decided that it was better no to mess with warp stuff, it seems logical that they don't want to teach others how to do it.
One version explains that they stopped using most of their tech in their daily lives after an Ork invasion of their homeworld, thinking that over reliance on it is making them soft.
Another version is that they never really gave up any of their tech, as much as they never used that much to begin with, that they just like to make do with the bare minimum in any give situation.
Whatever the case they never gave up on space travel though, and can be found as far as segmentum obscurus. Thats kinda the thing with Kroot, they seem to be primitive but are in fact in many ways more advanced and cosmopolitan than the Tau.
Tau have a lower tech ceiling but use all of it all the time, while Kroot have a much greater theoretical understanding of technology but put it to use sparingly.
So I wasn't completely wrong, but a bit off. Thanks for the details.
Still, it seems the kroot view technology as something silly or weak or maybe unnatural, not as a tool for progress. Asking them to share what they know would probably weird them out, then. And since the Tau already have spaceships, the kroot wouldn't see any reason to give them more spaceship tech.
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Post by: Overread
Does fast expansion even benefit the Tau? Right now they are on the edge of the galaxy and a small, but decent, thread to the Imperium. If Tau started to expand at a fast rate you can bet the Imperium would take FAR more interest in them.
Right now the Imperium has bigger fish to tackle, but if Tau started to try and be a big fish too fast the Imperium could likely overrun them. Tau woudl at least be a more manageable target. They don't get reinforcements from the deep black outside the Galaxy; they can't reproduce at an insane rate; they can't get more followed by corrupting your own people nor drawing upon denizens of an alternate dimension. They aren't even sleeping in tombs upon a billion worlds ready to rise up without warning.
Tau strenght is that they are ignored by the greater part of the Imperium at present. They'd need the Imperium to really shatter and suffer a huge loss and fragmentation in order for the tau to have room to expand quickly without losing all that ground and more just as fast.
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Post by: Vankraken
 Overread wrote:Does fast expansion even benefit the Tau? Right now they are on the edge of the galaxy and a small, but decent, thread to the Imperium. If Tau started to expand at a fast rate you can bet the Imperium would take FAR more interest in them.
Right now the Imperium has bigger fish to tackle, but if Tau started to try and be a big fish too fast the Imperium could likely overrun them. Tau woudl at least be a more manageable target. They don't get reinforcements from the deep black outside the Galaxy; they can't reproduce at an insane rate; they can't get more followed by corrupting your own people nor drawing upon denizens of an alternate dimension. They aren't even sleeping in tombs upon a billion worlds ready to rise up without warning.
Tau strenght is that they are ignored by the greater part of the Imperium at present. They'd need the Imperium to really shatter and suffer a huge loss and fragmentation in order for the tau to have room to expand quickly without losing all that ground and more just as fast.
With the whole divided IoM due to the warp rifts and the Tau having a relatively stable backdoor into the more northern parts of the galaxy with the Nem'yar Atoll. Now would be the time for the Tau to start gobbling up those IoM worlds that have been essentially cut off from the rest of the Imperium without drawing a huge amount of attention from Terra.
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Post by: Overread
True but they've got to consolidate and armour those worlds so that when things settle down they can hold onto them again. Many an empire has died because they used technological advantages to advance fast only to find that they grabbed too much to secure and hold onto all at the same time.
Esp if they are Xeno's securing Imperium worlds where the average person considers the Xeno to be akin to the devil. It might even take Tau generations of re-education in order to turn an Imperial world into something that won't rebel against them and require an iron grip to hold onto.
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Post by: BaconCatBug
The sole reason the T'au even survived the Damocles Crusade was because they were a small, compact region of space that could easily be supplied while the Imperium were isolated on the fringe, and the fact the Tyranids came a-knocking to divert the Imperiums resources elsewhere.
Let's not forget the T'au literally could not comprehend the concept of "Throw more bodies until your giblets clogs their guns" that the Imperium uses. It would have been a bloody, costly victory, but it would have been an Imperial Victory were it not for plot armour.
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Post by: Sterling191
Overread wrote:
Esp if they are Xeno's securing Imperium worlds where the average person considers the Xeno to be akin to the devil. It might even take Tau generations of re-education in order to turn an Imperial world into something that won't rebel against them and require an iron grip to hold onto.
Humans turning against the Imperium when presented with a system of governance that treats them with some modicum of humanity isn't uncommon, especially in light of the Rift and the "failure" of imperial political and military doctrines.
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Post by: Vankraken
The Tau do have experience with converting IoM worlds (i assume its bribing the lords of the system in question) and the worlds trapped on the dark side of the rift are in more dire straits. The Tau being able to offer order and added protection might be able to sway worlds to join the Tau Empire.
Not saying it will be remotely easy but its a potential opportune time for the Tau to grow their Empire without it being too unbelievable to pull off. 4th sphere Tau being extremely xenophobic after the whole "warp travel without a gellar field" experience might make diplomacy difficult but it seems the later Tau who traveled through the Startide Nexus avoided the negative influences of warp travel (i guess vortex travel is less prone to warp corruption?).
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Post by: Skaorn
GW made the mistake of keeping the Tau on the Terra side of the Rift. They are stuck between it, a giant Necron dynasty, and Ultramar (which is unlikely to fall to any force). I think the atoll thing was because they realized they painted the Tau into a corner.
In general I think that the Tau could have been handled a lot better. Rather than a microdot on the map, they could have been the size of one of the big Ork kingdoms or Necron Dynasties. Need to protect them? They're on the Eastern fring, beyond the light of the Astranomicon, they've just recently been pushing into the Imperium. Right now they aren't a big enough threat to send armies beyond the Light of the Emperor to deal with. Being on the eastern side of the Rift, they could have easily become a major player on that side.
I'm also not sure if the Kroot hiding things from the Tau is still a thing. They had that when the Kroot Merc list came out to justify why you couldn't take them as allies to an actual Tau army. I know I haven't seen anything that still suggest that is still a thing though. I also know that the original creator of the army for CA at least helped update the list for a later edition and certain things from that tend to get mistaken for canon. The whole Kroot got their advanced tech from eating Orks, becoming to reliant on it, getting stomped by Orks, and abandoning most of it was a major part of that, I believe.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
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Post by: locarno24
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:The Kroot won't share the technology. And the Tau ultimately have no way of figuring it out. They're just not psychic enough. And they really, really don't understand The Warp. Like, at all.
Crucially, their current propulsion is ultimately reliable. And that's what you really want when considering galactic travel.
It's quite possile they can't.
The kroot gained space travel technology after the ork invasion of Pech - it's possible no small amount of their command of warp tech is based on acquiring some orkish DNA strains during the war and having an innate-but-we-can't-really-explain-it understanding of the tech inherited from old-one developed oddboyz technical know-how genes.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
chimera0205 wrote:As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.
What good are warp engines when they can't navigate the warp. They can't and will never do warp travel, they need to evolve to do that which means that unless we some some terrible ex-machina 'surprise they found out how to navigate the warp by praying to chickens' they will never gain warp travel. They aren't that technologically advanced either, they are nothing compared to the eldar or mankind at its zenith so I doubt they will find a way to navigate the warp without using the webway. Tau players just need to enjoy or live with the fact that the Tau will never be big movers on the galactic scale.
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Post by: Skaorn
Just like you'll have to likely have to enjoy or live with the fact that GW won't be removing the Tau 
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Post by: chimera0205
 Delvarus Centurion wrote:chimera0205 wrote:As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.
What good are warp engines when they can't navigate the warp. They can't and will never do warp travel, they need to evolve to do that which means that unless we some some terrible ex-machina 'surprise they found out how to navigate the warp by praying to chickens' they will never gain warp travel. They aren't that technologically advanced either, they are nothing compared to the eldar or mankind at its zenith so I doubt they will find a way to navigate the warp without using the webway. Tau players just need to enjoy or live with the fact that the Tau will never be big movers on the galactic scale.
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
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Post by: Tiennos
Wait, the Tau have welcomed/assimilated some human worlds into their empire, right? The kroot may not be cooperative enough to become the Tau empire's navigator caste, but what about the actual human navigators? Are they just completely absent from the Tau-occupied human worlds? Are they all loyal to the Imperium and reject the greater good?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
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Post by: Formosa
They cant develop ware tech because they simply do not know how to, backwards engineering a warp engine may get you access but as soon as they enter the warp proper and the ship is lost, they will think its a technical problem, not a supernatural one, they may be aware of psykers but how could they know that psykers are required to use the warp and navigate, how could they know what a gellar field even does since they have never entered the warp proper and lived.
They cant do it because they cant, they cant even perceive of the solution because of their society and beliefs.
Now with that being said GW could just handwavium it into existence, but it will be done badly and likely annoy some of the fanbase, like the giant battlesuits stil annoy some.
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Post by: Niiai
Perhaps a Kroot ate a navigator?
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Post by: chimera0205
 Formosa wrote:They cant develop ware tech because they simply do not know how to, backwards engineering a warp engine may get you access but as soon as they enter the warp proper and the ship is lost, they will think its a technical problem, not a supernatural one, they may be aware of psykers but how could they know that psykers are required to use the warp and navigate, how could they know what a gellar field even does since they have never entered the warp proper and lived.
They cant do it because they cant, they cant even perceive of the solution because of their society and beliefs.
Now with that being said GW could just handwavium it into existence, but it will be done badly and likely annoy some of the fanbase, like the giant battlesuits stil annoy some.
Yes the Tau as a species but not the Tau as an empire. They have several species on the empire that have access to warp travel. Not only the kroot mentioned in the op but also the Demiurg and the imperium worlds theyve yoinked. Automatically Appended Next Post:  CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
First of all the tau definitely know it exists as they have serveral species in thier empire that do. Between the Guevesa, the Kroot, and the Demiurg it would be simply absurd to assume that the Tau havmt atleast figured out that the Warp exists. The Kroot are natural Navigators (not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking and whatever the feth the Demiurg use to travel the warp) tgey literally have ALL the pieces right in front of them. The humans, kroot, and Demiurg all are confirmed to have warp capable ships. The kroot are mentioned as having a 6th sense for navigating the warp and thus make good navigators. You keep pretending that they dont gave accesz to warp ships and that they dont thave any understanding of the warp whule ignoring the fact that several species in the tau empure have all those things. A blind man vould toltally draw a pink elephant if you literally gave him a pink crayon and patiently described a elephant to him.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
 Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
Looking forward to Grand Alliance Soup
120675
Post by: chimera0205
Delvarus Centurion wrote:chimera0205 wrote:As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.
What good are warp engines when they can't navigate the warp. They can't and will never do warp travel, they need to evolve to do that which means that unless we some some terrible ex-machina 'surprise they found out how to navigate the warp by praying to chickens' they will never gain warp travel. They aren't that technologically advanced either, they are nothing compared to the eldar or mankind at its zenith so I doubt they will find a way to navigate the warp without using the webway. Tau players just need to enjoy or live with the fact that the Tau will never be big movers on the galactic scale.
It eouldnt be a dues ex machina cause the tau already have the kroot who have been confirmed to have a 6th sense for navigating the warp. The tau have a very speciel and super rare ability that makes all your points stupud and redicolous. This ability is called "not bieng racist and having the ability to actually work with other races" why would they have to evolve navigators when they have an entire planet full of Kroot who have the natural ability to navigate the warp. Why would they need to devolpe warp drives when they can just reverse engineer the ones that the Kroot, demurg and guevesa have.
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Post by: Grey Templar
The Tau have not created true Warp Drives because they are incapable of doing so. They are an utterly non-psychic race, and because of this they cannot conceive of nor even manipulate the technology associated with a true Warp Drive. You have to be a psychic capable species to comprehend the Warp drive, because it isn't fully based in science. It is half scientific and half sorcery. Without being a psychic race you cannot fathom the sorcery part of the warp drive and thus would never be able to replicate it.
And even if the Tau got some real Warp Drives, without navigators or Geller fields they would never survive a true Warp jump. Either they would get hopelessly lost, torn apart by the maelstrom of the Immaterium, or be snacks for daemons.
The only way the Tau could ever get Warp Drive technology is if one of their psychic slave races shares the technology as well as their navigators for the Tau to use. Currently all of their psychic slave races do not share such things, though a combination of both deliberately hiding it and the Tau's complete naivety regarding anything associated with the Warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote: I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp.
The Kroot have warp drives. The Tau do not.
The Tau think that they have total control over the Kroot, but this is incorrect. The Kroot still maintain a lot of independence from the Tau Empire, unbeknownst to the Tau.
And as a I mentioned above, the Tau are completely in the dark about how anything related to the Warp works. To them it is just superstition and unscientific religious rituals practiced by backwards species. They do not know that these rituals and "superstitions" are very real. They don't connect the dots and realize that the Kroot ships are faster and can travel massive distances.
The Tau really are that dumb/naive. They miss what is obvious because they are incapable of noticing it.
From the Kroot point of view, they are simply well paid mercenaries serving the Tau. They do not consider themselves to be a part of the Tau Empire, and in truth they aren't. They just play along because it is beneficial, and the secret shipyards and mercenary bands which sell their services to the rest of the galaxy are kept secret.
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Post by: Crazyterran
Most Imperials don't even know how Warp Travel works, beyond needing a very specific breed of mutant to actually do it. And if I was a loyal Imperial Captain and my ship had begun to be boarded by a bunch of aliens, the first thing I would do is shoot my navigator, since i'm boned anyways, might as well make sure they can't make use of my ship.
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Post by: Grey Templar
The Tau actually had/have an intact Imperial Warp Drive. The original imperial colony ship which was sent to colonize T'au that got wrecked by the warp storm crash landed on the moon. It was from that that the Tau developed the skip drive they have now. That was the best they could do with an intact/nearly intact Warp Drive.
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Post by: Formosa
 Crazyterran wrote:Most Imperials don't even know how Warp Travel works, beyond needing a very specific breed of mutant to actually do it. And if I was a loyal Imperial Captain and my ship had begun to be boarded by a bunch of aliens, the first thing I would do is shoot my navigator, since i'm boned anyways, might as well make sure they can't make use of my ship.
and you would be right to, Chaos fleets love those navigators and capturing them is a priority given how mutated the chaos ones have gotten.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Formosa wrote: Crazyterran wrote:Most Imperials don't even know how Warp Travel works, beyond needing a very specific breed of mutant to actually do it. And if I was a loyal Imperial Captain and my ship had begun to be boarded by a bunch of aliens, the first thing I would do is shoot my navigator, since i'm boned anyways, might as well make sure they can't make use of my ship.
and you would be right to, Chaos fleets love those navigators and capturing them is a priority given how mutated the chaos ones have gotten.
And that generally is indeed what happens. Heck, executing the Navigator is standard procedure in a lot of situations. They do have a nasty tendency towards getting possessed or any other manner of nasty warp occurrences. The Navigator chair can be jettisoned from the ship's exterior if necessary even while you're still in the Warp.
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Post by: chimera0205
 Grey Templar wrote:The Tau have not created true Warp Drives because they are incapable of doing so. They are an utterly non-psychic race, and because of this they cannot conceive of nor even manipulate the technology associated with a true Warp Drive. You have to be a psychic capable species to comprehend the Warp drive, because it isn't fully based in science. It is half scientific and half sorcery. Without being a psychic race you cannot fathom the sorcery part of the warp drive and thus would never be able to replicate it.
And even if the Tau got some real Warp Drives, without navigators or Geller fields they would never survive a true Warp jump. Either they would get hopelessly lost, torn apart by the maelstrom of the Immaterium, or be snacks for daemons.
The only way the Tau could ever get Warp Drive technology is if one of their psychic slave races shares the technology as well as their navigators for the Tau to use. Currently all of their psychic slave races do not share such things, though a combination of both deliberately hiding it and the Tau's complete naivety regarding anything associated with the Warp.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote: I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp.
The Kroot have warp drives. The Tau do not.
The Tau think that they have total control over the Kroot, but this is incorrect. The Kroot still maintain a lot of independence from the Tau Empire, unbeknownst to the Tau.
And as a I mentioned above, the Tau are completely in the dark about how anything related to the Warp works. To them it is just superstition and unscientific religious rituals practiced by backwards species. They do not know that these rituals and "superstitions" are very real. They don't connect the dots and realize that the Kroot ships are faster and can travel massive distances.
The Tau really are that dumb/naive. They miss what is obvious because they are incapable of noticing it.
From the Kroot point of view, they are simply well paid mercenaries serving the Tau. They do not consider themselves to be a part of the Tau Empire, and in truth they aren't. They just play along because it is beneficial, and the secret shipyards and mercenary bands which sell their services to the rest of the galaxy are kept secret.
Ok wow s9meone has a hell of a hate boner for the Tau. Ok first if all the tau do not have any "Physics slave races" actually the Tau dont have any slave races perios other than maybe the Vespid and we cant even really definitively prove that. The two physic races they have the Nicassar and the various human worlds that have joined them have all jpined willingly and there is no reason to assumr they wouldnt have told them about the warp.
The Tau already have warp drive technology. Even if the kroot refused to share there warp tech It is simply fething impossible that they havnt picked up at least merhcant ship or two from all the imperial worlds theyve yoinked.
Also Kroot warspeheres have been seen fighting alongside the Tau numerous times. Theres no way in helk a speciels as inquisitive and adaptable as the Tau havnt figured out that the kroot ships are faster then theres.
We dont know how the Kroot build there ships so we cant just assume they have "secret shipyards" and its been stated more times than i can count that the kroot view the Tau as there favorite species to be employed by so even if the Tau cant force the kroot to give them warp drives i dont see why they cant just take it from there imperium worlds od the Demiurg and hire kroot as navigators. Ypur seriously overplaying the Taus naivety. Also your gonna call the Tau dumb? At least there first reposne to meeting any alien species isnt to immediately blow up the fething planet like your precious imperium
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
Given that the Tau ships are still slow as heck and can only barely jump the Daemocles gulf, yeah, they still ain't got jack squat.
Yes, the Kroot do have secret Shipyards. You need to reread the Kroot fluff.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kroot
In order to gather genetic material from all over the galaxy, the Kroot offer themselves as mercenaries, and sell their services to anyone willing to pay them. They travel the galaxy taking limited contracts from both major and minor races, and are regularly employed by the Tau. While the contract with the Tau is supposed to be an exclusive one, the Kroot regularly send out their Warspheres to continue their mercenary trade amongst the wider cosmos.
Outwardly, the Kroot seem to be a simple pre-industrial society, seemingly incapable of achieving powered flight, much less travelling through space. However, Tau observers on Pech have noted evidence that may point to an industrial base hidden on or even inside of some mountains. It's probable that the Kroot deliberately keep their general level of technology low, using it only for weapons and interstellar travel, in order to keep their species strong.
The Tau do have suspicions about the Kroot having secret shipyards, but they have no proof.
120675
Post by: chimera0205
Grey Templar wrote:Given that the Tau ships are still slow as heck and can only barely jump the Daemocles gulf, yeah, they still ain't got jack squat.
Yes, the Kroot do have secret Shipyards. You need to reread the Kroot fluff.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kroot
In order to gather genetic material from all over the galaxy, the Kroot offer themselves as mercenaries, and sell their services to anyone willing to pay them. They travel the galaxy taking limited contracts from both major and minor races, and are regularly employed by the Tau. While the contract with the Tau is supposed to be an exclusive one, the Kroot regularly send out their Warspheres to continue their mercenary trade amongst the wider cosmos.
Outwardly, the Kroot seem to be a simple pre-industrial society, seemingly incapable of achieving powered flight, much less travelling through space. However, Tau observers on Pech have noted evidence that may point to an industrial base hidden on or even inside of some mountains. It's probable that the Kroot deliberately keep their general level of technology low, using it only for weapons and interstellar travel, in order to keep their species strong.
The Tau do have suspicions about the Kroot having secret shipyards, but they have no proof.
Once again. NO PROOF. Idle speculation that they MAY have secret shipyards is not proof that they DO have secret shipyards. And the fact that there warp drives are still so slow is the thing im argueing MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE. are you even reading the damn thread?!
105418
Post by: John Prins
The Tau have warp drive technology. What they don't have is navigation. That's why they can only skim the surface of the warp, without reliable navigation, only short jumps are possible, they can't find their way into the deeper warp currents for long trips.
In some ways, Tau warp skimming is superior and beneficial to the Tau Empire - little risk to crew, fast enough to be generally useful, but slow enough to force the Tau to expand in a slow and controlled fashion, meaning their Empire doesn't become scattered like Humanity did. Their early spheres of expansion were done with sublight drives, so warp skimming might not get you to the other side of the galaxy in a hurry, but if it's only a few weeks to the next star system, you can manage an empire so long as you fortify your positions.
Now, the Tau seemed to have brute forced their way into a deeper warp journey with predictable consequences. I assume the Kroot-tech for warp travel is probably dependent on having lots of Kroot together to form a mini-waaaagh field to navigate and Gellar Field their own vessels rather than having properly functioning warp drives the Tau could copy. Maybe someday we'll get Codex Kroot and find out.
20243
Post by: Grey Templar
chimera0205 wrote: Grey Templar wrote:Given that the Tau ships are still slow as heck and can only barely jump the Daemocles gulf, yeah, they still ain't got jack squat.
Yes, the Kroot do have secret Shipyards. You need to reread the Kroot fluff.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kroot
In order to gather genetic material from all over the galaxy, the Kroot offer themselves as mercenaries, and sell their services to anyone willing to pay them. They travel the galaxy taking limited contracts from both major and minor races, and are regularly employed by the Tau. While the contract with the Tau is supposed to be an exclusive one, the Kroot regularly send out their Warspheres to continue their mercenary trade amongst the wider cosmos.
Outwardly, the Kroot seem to be a simple pre-industrial society, seemingly incapable of achieving powered flight, much less travelling through space. However, Tau observers on Pech have noted evidence that may point to an industrial base hidden on or even inside of some mountains. It's probable that the Kroot deliberately keep their general level of technology low, using it only for weapons and interstellar travel, in order to keep their species strong.
The Tau do have suspicions about the Kroot having secret shipyards, but they have no proof.
Once again. NO PROOF. Idle speculation that they MAY have secret shipyards is not proof that they DO have secret shipyards. And the fact that there warp drives are still so slow is the thing im argueing MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE. are you even reading the damn thread?!
Complaining that I'm a raging Imperial fanboi, when you're doing the exact same thing for the Tau. Yes, that is in-fact proof. We're not using legal standards here. Tau observers believe the Kroot might have secret facilities, for us the omnipresent observer that is proof that they exist.
You are arguing that it makes no sense that Tau warp drives are slow. Why? It makes perfect sense that they are slow. The Tau are non-psychic. Given what little we know about how Warp Drives work, a non-psychic race not being able to make one makes complete sense.
It is you who haven't understood the fluff properly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 John Prins wrote:
In some ways, Tau warp skimming is superior and beneficial to the Tau Empire - little risk to crew, fast enough to be generally useful, but slow enough to force the Tau to expand in a slow and controlled fashion, meaning their Empire doesn't become scattered like Humanity did. Their early spheres of expansion were done with sublight drives, so warp skimming might not get you to the other side of the galaxy in a hurry, but if it's only a few weeks to the next star system, you can manage an empire so long as you fortify your positions.
The 1st expansion might be that, but the 2nd and 3rd expansions are spread out such that the Tau who make trips regularly only survive for a few of them before simply becoming old. They use primitive cryogenic stasis for important individuals to preserve their lives, but that doesn't speed up their travel. It clearly takes years to travel between many places in the Tau empire, and for a species that only survives ~40 Terran years that is a massive problem.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
In order for the Kroot to have a lucrative interstellar mercenary business, they have to have the industrial capacity to create the ships to successfully pull it off. Ergo, they must have shipyards somewhere, and are not the primitive savages the Tau seem to believe they are.
120675
Post by: chimera0205
Grey Templar wrote:chimera0205 wrote: Grey Templar wrote:Given that the Tau ships are still slow as heck and can only barely jump the Daemocles gulf, yeah, they still ain't got jack squat.
Yes, the Kroot do have secret Shipyards. You need to reread the Kroot fluff.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Kroot
In order to gather genetic material from all over the galaxy, the Kroot offer themselves as mercenaries, and sell their services to anyone willing to pay them. They travel the galaxy taking limited contracts from both major and minor races, and are regularly employed by the Tau. While the contract with the Tau is supposed to be an exclusive one, the Kroot regularly send out their Warspheres to continue their mercenary trade amongst the wider cosmos.
Outwardly, the Kroot seem to be a simple pre-industrial society, seemingly incapable of achieving powered flight, much less travelling through space. However, Tau observers on Pech have noted evidence that may point to an industrial base hidden on or even inside of some mountains. It's probable that the Kroot deliberately keep their general level of technology low, using it only for weapons and interstellar travel, in order to keep their species strong.
The Tau do have suspicions about the Kroot having secret shipyards, but they have no proof.
Once again. NO PROOF. Idle speculation that they MAY have secret shipyards is not proof that they DO have secret shipyards. And the fact that there warp drives are still so slow is the thing im argueing MAKES NO GOD DAMN SENSE. are you even reading the damn thread?!
Complaining that I'm a raging Imperial fanboi, when you're doing the exact same thing for the Tau. Yes, that is in-fact proof. We're not using legal standards here. Tau observers believe the Kroot might have secret facilities, for us the omnipresent observer that is proof that they exist.
You are arguing that it makes no sense that Tau warp drives are slow. Why? It makes perfect sense that they are slow. The Tau are non-psychic. Given what little we know about how Warp Drives work, a non-psychic race not being able to make one makes complete sense.
It is you who haven't understood the fluff properly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
John Prins wrote:
In some ways, Tau warp skimming is superior and beneficial to the Tau Empire - little risk to crew, fast enough to be generally useful, but slow enough to force the Tau to expand in a slow and controlled fashion, meaning their Empire doesn't become scattered like Humanity did. Their early spheres of expansion were done with sublight drives, so warp skimming might not get you to the other side of the galaxy in a hurry, but if it's only a few weeks to the next star system, you can manage an empire so long as you fortify your positions.
The 1st expansion might be that, but the 2nd and 3rd expansions are spread out such that the Tau who make trips regularly only survive for a few of them before simply becoming old. They use primitive cryogenic stasis for important individuals to preserve their lives, but that doesn't speed up their travel. It clearly takes years to travel between many places in the Tau empire, and for a species that only survives ~40 Terran years that is a massive problem.
A non physic race that has several psychics races in thier empire. Between the Kroot, The Demiurg, and the Guevesa humans they should be more than capable of scrounging up a warp engine to reverse engineer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: CthuluIsSpy wrote:In order for the Kroot to have a lucrative interstellar mercenary business, they have to have the industrial capacity to create the ships to successfully pull it off. Ergo, they must have shipyards somewhere, and are not the primitive savages the Tau seem to believe they are.
Given that Kroot warspheres frequently fight beside the Tau id be very shocked if they still think the kroot are primitive savages.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Assuming that those races want to tell them how to make it, that the personnel they acquired know how to make it, and that the Tau scientists take their heads out of their asses to listen to them.
Also, do the Demiurg have warp tech? All I could find about them is that their ships are slower than imperial ships, but it doesn't say anything about them being warp based.
You have the Nicassar, but their ships aren't capable of interstellar travel, and actually require the Tau to tow them around.
119854
Post by: Skaorn
Can someone point to a source that states the warp drives and gellar fields require psykers? They were both developed by humans in M18. Psykers didn't really start showing up in any numbers until M22, which was when Navigators were created. Navigators just allowed humans to make longer trips in the Warp. After Slaanesh, Navigators might have become a necessity because you'd almost certainly get lost without one know.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp_drive
I know people will say that Lexicanum isn't a real source, but it does gel with what I have read before.
If you follow the link to the Warp Jump article, it lists a section on Tau warp travel. It states that they can't fully enter the Warp because they don't have psykers. Now some might say that this is the proof that you need psykers to enter the Warp. Of course it could mean that they can't enter the Warp because they'd just get hopelessly lost without a Navigator equivalent. Instead of making suicidal attempts to travel through the Warp, they use the spring board method.
Tau Warp travel is one of the areas where GW fluff starts breaking down because they haven't put a lot of thought into the implications of what they've wrote. If Tau have allies that are experienced with the dangers of warp travel, why wouldn't they have gellar fields just in case a ship does manage to breach the Warp? Why wouldn't they at least have some rapid response ships that use full warp drives and employ hired Navigators of allied species to quickly reinforce defenses? Why is Chaos and the Warp still a brand new surprise to the Tau when they've been in the game for almost 20 years now? Who the hell let Phil Kelly get away with the God of the Greater Good that saved the 4th Sphere fleet from the Warp crap?
120675
Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Assuming that those races want to tell them how to make it, that the personnel they acquired know how to make it, and that the Tau scientists take their heads out of their asses to listen to them.
I dont see how any of that is an issue. Even if the kroot wont the Guevesa surely will. By all accounts Humans under the control of the tau are much better off than those under the imperium and seem to genuinely liek the tau. I dont see why a guevesa would tell the tau how to make a warp drive. Then they just hire the Kroot as navigators. And what do you mean get thier heads out if there asses? Im pretty sure tau earth caste scientists have been shown to be far more effective than your average mechanicus adept. At least they actually invemt things instead of screaming heresy at anything tjat isnt STC and even some things that are
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Well, apparently they think Chaos is just another violent race of xenos, and whilst warp drives and gellar fields predates masses of psykers, they were still created by a race that has psychic potential, and I'm pretty sure you had the odd psyker here and there before.
Nicassar apparently don't use warp drives. If they can't do interstellar travel, then they probably don't go into the warp, even though they are potent psykers. Maybe they know better or something.
120675
Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, apparently they think Chaos is just another violent race of xenos, and whilst warp drives and gellar fields predates masses of psykers, they were still created by a race that has psychic potential, and I'm pretty sure you had the odd psyker here and there before.
Nicassar apparently don't use warp drives. If they can't do interstellar travel, then they probably don't go into the warp, even though they are potent psykers. Maybe they know better or something.
Given there recent expierences im pretty sure the tau have begun to somewhat piece togther what choas is. Given what we know about the DOAT humans i doubt "the odd psycher here and there" would be sufficent to meet demand. The Demiurg have and use warp drives and as far as im aware theres no priof they have psychers either. Same with the kroot.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Where do you see that the Demiurg use warp drives? I don't see anything about them having that. All I could read is that they use hydrogen that's been compressed and ejected out the rear.
Are you confusing Demiurg with Nicassar or something? Which don't have warp drives either, judging by the lack of interstellar travel and the reliance on hibernation. They do use psychic powers to propel the ship, but that's not warp travel, that's telekinesis.
Kroot warspheres are confirmed to use warp travel, no argument there.
118912
Post by: Techpriestsupport
It could be the tau know the kroot serve as mercs and have warp travel the tau canctnuse because no ork DNA, and understand the kroot benefit from diverse DNA assimilation and allow them to do so as it makes the kroot better. Also assimilating DNA from other races may help the kroot understand them and city them better, which benefits the tau. The tau may honestly not see the kroot as slaves or servants but as a species willingly working with them but still has its own needs and issues and respects them. Gosh maybe the tau actually aren't a fascist space commie empire after all....
120675
Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Where do you see that the Demiurg use warp drives? I don't see anything about them having that. All I could read is that they use hydrogen that's been compressed and ejected out the rear.
Are you confusing Demiurg with Nicassar or something? Which don't have warp drives either, judging by the lack of interstellar travel and the reliance on hibernation. They do use psychic powers to propel the ship, but that's not warp travel, that's telekinesis.
Kroot warspheres are confirmed to use warp travel, no argument there.
Given how spread put the Demiurg are and that they seem to be capable of meeting up frequently it would be extremely unlikely for them to not have some form of FTL or another. Especially since they frequently escape imperium ships who do have FTL. I dont see how a sublight ship can put run a ship with warp drives so they have to have SOMETHING.
54671
Post by: Crazyterran
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Assuming that those races want to tell them how to make it, that the personnel they acquired know how to make it, and that the Tau scientists take their heads out of their asses to listen to them.
I dont see how any of that is an issue. Even if the kroot wont the Guevesa surely will. By all accounts Humans under the control of the tau are much better off than those under the imperium and seem to genuinely liek the tau. I dont see why a guevesa would tell the tau how to make a warp drive. Then they just hire the Kroot as navigators. And what do you mean get thier heads out if there asses? Im pretty sure tau earth caste scientists have been shown to be far more effective than your average mechanicus adept. At least they actually invemt things instead of screaming heresy at anything tjat isnt STC and even some things that are
Would you be able to explain how to build a computer to a caveman? The Tau have no grasp of the psychic at all due to their weak souls and lack of any racial psykers. Not to mention that the Navigator gene is a carefully curated and very rare genetic trait even amongst Humans, to the point that a group of Mutant Psykers get a seat on the High Lords of Terra, so why do you think other races could just pop the Tau a few Navigator equivalents? It could be that the Kroot just barely have enough to man their own Warspheres? Or, as suggested, it works like the Orks, where they point in a general direction and the collected Ork DNA Kroot project a Geller Field for the Warsphere.
And the Tau Earth Caste is shown to be incredibly resistant to non-tau or even non-traditional thinking as well. Isn't the fluff of one the Riptides from Forge World that the inventor was shunned by regular Earth Caste engineers and his funding slashed until the Tyranids showed up to prove his invention was awesome?
The Humans during the DAOT also had to deal with an entirely different warp than the Tau do now. Before the the Eldar boned the Eye of Terror into existence, the Warp was generally a calm and easy to navigate place. Nevermind after the Ruinstorm during the Horus Heresy leaving a bunch of Warp Storms behind, and now you have the Cicatrix Maledictum cutting the Galaxy in half and the Warp never more tumultuous. So, yes, Humans before could travel through the warp without Navigators or Geller Fields, but the Tau don't get that same opportunity.
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Where do you see that the Demiurg use warp drives? I don't see anything about them having that. All I could read is that they use hydrogen that's been compressed and ejected out the rear.
Are you confusing Demiurg with Nicassar or something? Which don't have warp drives either, judging by the lack of interstellar travel and the reliance on hibernation. They do use psychic powers to propel the ship, but that's not warp travel, that's telekinesis.
Kroot warspheres are confirmed to use warp travel, no argument there.
Given how spread put the Demiurg are and that they seem to be capable of meeting up frequently it would be extremely unlikely for them to not have some form of FTL or another. Especially since they frequently escape imperium ships who do have FTL. I dont see how a sublight ship can put run a ship with warp drives so they have to have SOMETHING.
The Demiurg are also incredibly secretive. They might be aligned with the Tau, but it doesn't mean they are shooting over full schematics for their technology.
120424
Post by: ValentineGames
Why reinvent the wheel just to get your face eaten off by gribbly things?
120675
Post by: chimera0205
Crazyterran wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Assuming that those races want to tell them how to make it, that the personnel they acquired know how to make it, and that the Tau scientists take their heads out of their asses to listen to them.
I dont see how any of that is an issue. Even if the kroot wont the Guevesa surely will. By all accounts Humans under the control of the tau are much better off than those under the imperium and seem to genuinely liek the tau. I dont see why a guevesa would tell the tau how to make a warp drive. Then they just hire the Kroot as navigators. And what do you mean get thier heads out if there asses? Im pretty sure tau earth caste scientists have been shown to be far more effective than your average mechanicus adept. At least they actually invemt things instead of screaming heresy at anything tjat isnt STC and even some things that are
Would you be able to explain how to build a computer to a caveman? The Tau have no grasp of the psychic at all due to their weak souls and lack of any racial psykers. Not to mention that the Navigator gene is a carefully curated and very rare genetic trait even amongst Humans, to the point that a group of Mutant Psykers get a seat on the High Lords of Terra, so why do you think other races could just pop the Tau a few Navigator equivalents? It could be that the Kroot just barely have enough to man their own Warspheres? Or, as suggested, it works like the Orks, where they point in a general direction and the collected Ork DNA Kroot project a Geller Field for the Warsphere.
And the Tau Earth Caste is shown to be incredibly resistant to non-tau or even non-traditional thinking as well. Isn't the fluff of one the Riptides from Forge World that the inventor was shunned by regular Earth Caste engineers and his funding slashed until the Tyranids showed up to prove his invention was awesome?
The Humans during the DAOT also had to deal with an entirely different warp than the Tau do now. Before the the Eldar boned the Eye of Terror into existence, the Warp was generally a calm and easy to navigate place. Nevermind after the Ruinstorm during the Horus Heresy leaving a bunch of Warp Storms behind, and now you have the Cicatrix Maledictum cutting the Galaxy in half and the Warp never more tumultuous. So, yes, Humans before could travel through the warp without Navigators or Geller Fields, but the Tau don't get that same opportunity.
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Where do you see that the Demiurg use warp drives? I don't see anything about them having that. All I could read is that they use hydrogen that's been compressed and ejected out the rear.
Are you confusing Demiurg with Nicassar or something? Which don't have warp drives either, judging by the lack of interstellar travel and the reliance on hibernation. They do use psychic powers to propel the ship, but that's not warp travel, that's telekinesis.
Kroot warspheres are confirmed to use warp travel, no argument there.
Given how spread put the Demiurg are and that they seem to be capable of meeting up frequently it would be extremely unlikely for them to not have some form of FTL or another. Especially since they frequently escape imperium ships who do have FTL. I dont see how a sublight ship can put run a ship with warp drives so they have to have SOMETHING.
The Demiurg are also incredibly secretive. They might be aligned with the Tau, but it doesn't mean they are shooting over full schematics for their technology.
Would i be able to teavh a caveman to build a computer? Probably it would just take a very long time and be an incredible fristrating process. Irl uncontacted neolithic tribes have been incorporated into modern society before. If the Kroot are like irks then theres a simple solution. Throw a bunch kroot on your ships instead of just one or two. Cmon people this isnt rocket science. Well i guess it kinda is but you know what i mean
WTF do you mean the Earth Caste are remarkable intollerent to non tau tech. The taus skim drive was literally found on an alein ship. Every single tau ship uses alien tech. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well if the first time you invented the wheel it was an octagon instead if a circle that eould be a good reason to reinvent it.
119854
Post by: Skaorn
Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
81759
Post by: BaconCatBug
Skaorn wrote:Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
No, but you do need them to not get lost and you need Gellar Fields to not get instanommed.
30490
Post by: Mr Morden
Skaorn wrote:Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
You can navigate short distances by using a tech - but its nowhere near as effective as a Navigator or as flexibile.
If you are not protected by a Gellar Field or Sorcery you will die in the Warp - unless the Gods fo Chaos want you as a toy. If they send ships into the warp proper unprotected then you get the 40k version of Event Horizon.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Skaorn wrote:Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
Maybe because nearly every race that was psychically inclined could create a form of warp tech, whilst those that aren't couldn't? We know of 2 races that have no or little presence in the warp - Necrontyr and Tau. Neither of which successfully traveled through the warp. The necrons had to enlist the services of a god to break into the webway, and that's considered to be the one of the stupider parts of the new necron fluff. And the necrontyr weren't primitive; according to the 8th ed necron codex, and even in earlier editions, they were more advanced than the Old Ones were. Which means they probably did have knowledge of quantum physics, especially when you consider that they are capable of creating pocket dimensions. We know of several psychic capable races or warp sensitive races - Eldar, Orks, Humans, Kroot, nicassar, and Old Ones. There are probably more, but these are the more well known ones. Of these, only the Nicassar apparently hasn't displayed some form of warp travel, and that's probably because they don't need to due to their patience and hibernation. As such, we can infer that yes, one has to have some sort of connection with the warp in order to create warp travel. Note that connection with the warp doesn't necessarily mean that one is a psyker, just that one has a certain intuitive grasp when dealing with warp tech, due to its weird, metaphysical nature.
34439
Post by: Formosa
Skaorn wrote:Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
in every single book that has a navigator, weirdboy, sorceror, libby, etc. etc. that navigates the warp, warp drives without psykers are just engines that throw you into hell to die, as for the gellar field, its a field that wraps the ship in reality when in the warp and only when in the warp, in realspace it keeps warp entities locked in or locked out and thats it, so given the tau have never been in the warp proper and lived, all they would see is a force field that stops those strange xenos from another dimension, how could they possibly know its effect on the warp.
the other races that work with the Tau may have told them about the warp, but the Tau are like the humans with the imperial truth, so likely ignore the silly superstitions of the lesser enlightened races.
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
 Mr Morden wrote:Skaorn wrote:Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
You can navigate short distances by using a tech - but its nowhere near as effective as a Navigator or as flexibile.
If you are not protected by a Gellar Field or Sorcery you will die in the Warp - unless the Gods fo Chaos want you as a toy. If they send ships into the warp proper unprotected then you get the 40k version of Event Horizon.
The Tau found out the hard way.
34439
Post by: Formosa
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Skaorn wrote:Again, where does it state that a warp drive and a gellar field need a psychic to make or operate? Crossing to another dimension might just require sufficiently advanced knowledge of quantum physics in 40K. The fact that the Tau punched a big hole into the Warp by using a new design of warp drive in great numbers supports that you don't need psykers to enter the Warp.
Maybe because nearly every race that was psychically inclined could create a form of warp tech, whilst those that aren't couldn't?
We know of 2 races that have no or little presence in the warp - Necrontyr and Tau. Neither of which successfully traveled through the warp. The necrons had to enlist the services of a god to break into the webway, and that's considered to be the one of the stupider parts of the new necron fluff. And the necrontyr weren't primitive; according to the 8th ed necron codex, and even in earlier editions, they were more advanced than the Old Ones were. Which means they probably did have knowledge of quantum physics, especially when you consider that they are capable of creating pocket dimensions.
We know of several psychic capable races or warp sensitive races - Eldar, Orks, Humans, Kroot, nicassar, and Old Ones. There are probably more, but these are the more well known ones.
Of these, only the Nicassar apparently hasn't displayed some form of warp travel, and that's probably because they don't need to due to their patience and hibernation.
As such, we can infer that yes, one has to have some sort of connection with the warp in order to create warp travel.
Note that connection with the warp doesn't necessarily mean that one is a psyker, just that one has a certain intuitive grasp when dealing with warp tech, due to its weird, metaphysical nature.
Necrons still have inercialess drives thankfully, its just not in the codex, dolman gates are just one way of travelling for them.
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Post by: Crazyterran
chimera0205 wrote: Crazyterran wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Assuming that those races want to tell them how to make it, that the personnel they acquired know how to make it, and that the Tau scientists take their heads out of their asses to listen to them.
I dont see how any of that is an issue. Even if the kroot wont the Guevesa surely will. By all accounts Humans under the control of the tau are much better off than those under the imperium and seem to genuinely liek the tau. I dont see why a guevesa would tell the tau how to make a warp drive. Then they just hire the Kroot as navigators. And what do you mean get thier heads out if there asses? Im pretty sure tau earth caste scientists have been shown to be far more effective than your average mechanicus adept. At least they actually invemt things instead of screaming heresy at anything tjat isnt STC and even some things that are
Would you be able to explain how to build a computer to a caveman? The Tau have no grasp of the psychic at all due to their weak souls and lack of any racial psykers. Not to mention that the Navigator gene is a carefully curated and very rare genetic trait even amongst Humans, to the point that a group of Mutant Psykers get a seat on the High Lords of Terra, so why do you think other races could just pop the Tau a few Navigator equivalents? It could be that the Kroot just barely have enough to man their own Warspheres? Or, as suggested, it works like the Orks, where they point in a general direction and the collected Ork DNA Kroot project a Geller Field for the Warsphere.
And the Tau Earth Caste is shown to be incredibly resistant to non-tau or even non-traditional thinking as well. Isn't the fluff of one the Riptides from Forge World that the inventor was shunned by regular Earth Caste engineers and his funding slashed until the Tyranids showed up to prove his invention was awesome?
The Humans during the DAOT also had to deal with an entirely different warp than the Tau do now. Before the the Eldar boned the Eye of Terror into existence, the Warp was generally a calm and easy to navigate place. Nevermind after the Ruinstorm during the Horus Heresy leaving a bunch of Warp Storms behind, and now you have the Cicatrix Maledictum cutting the Galaxy in half and the Warp never more tumultuous. So, yes, Humans before could travel through the warp without Navigators or Geller Fields, but the Tau don't get that same opportunity.
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Where do you see that the Demiurg use warp drives? I don't see anything about them having that. All I could read is that they use hydrogen that's been compressed and ejected out the rear.
Are you confusing Demiurg with Nicassar or something? Which don't have warp drives either, judging by the lack of interstellar travel and the reliance on hibernation. They do use psychic powers to propel the ship, but that's not warp travel, that's telekinesis.
Kroot warspheres are confirmed to use warp travel, no argument there.
Given how spread put the Demiurg are and that they seem to be capable of meeting up frequently it would be extremely unlikely for them to not have some form of FTL or another. Especially since they frequently escape imperium ships who do have FTL. I dont see how a sublight ship can put run a ship with warp drives so they have to have SOMETHING.
The Demiurg are also incredibly secretive. They might be aligned with the Tau, but it doesn't mean they are shooting over full schematics for their technology.
Would i be able to teavh a caveman to build a computer? Probably it would just take a very long time and be an incredible fristrating process. Irl uncontacted neolithic tribes have been incorporated into modern society before. If the Kroot are like irks then theres a simple solution. Throw a bunch kroot on your ships instead of just one or two. Cmon people this isnt rocket science. Well i guess it kinda is but you know what i mean
WTF do you mean the Earth Caste are remarkable intollerent to non tau tech. The taus skim drive was literally found on an alein ship. Every single tau ship uses alien tech.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well if the first time you invented the wheel it was an octagon instead if a circle that eould be a good reason to reinvent it.
The Tau are at the point where they think their Tech is the best, and the Humans are primitives using clubs compared to their elegant designs. So, yes, they would look down their (lack of) nose at Human technology at this point, even if they don't really have a leg to stand on, since the stuff kept in the vaults of the Imperium make the Taus tech look like Baby's First Lasgun. I suppose I used the wrong analogy with the caveman, it's more like teaching a blind man to see colours - Tau aren't really capable of perceiving the Warp unless it's a concentrated lack of it (they still get all anxious and react to the Culexus Assassin that killed Aun'va) or it's the actual warp, where they, you know, get eaten. They've made warp drives in the past, after all, they just have no idea how to perceive what to do with them after that.
Kroot live on one world. Why would there be enough Kroot to throw on all of their ships? Why would the Kroot all go along with eating Orks when their species prefers diversity? That's assuming it works like Orks and it's not a secret Kroot thing.
The Tau Empire kind of proves the Imperium's Human only philosophy right - the non-Tau have their own agendas within the Empire, and they aren't necessarily sharing all their cards with the Tau. Heck, Kroot are only aligned with the Tau nominally, there are still Shapers and Kroot warbands that go off and ally with whomever will give them the tastiest meats to eats.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Funnily enough, the lasgun is actually more advanced than anything they tau has made.
To my knowledge, the Tau have not invented direct-energy weapons. Their technology is mostly rail gun based, which is something we are developing today. The pulse rifle uses an electromagnetic field to propel a solid projectile, that has been turned into plasma through induction. I'm pretty sure the US navy successfully built a huge ass rail cannon that can do something like that.
What we can't do today is develop a laser weapon with the power output to kill a man. The power requirements are simply too demanding, especially for a man portable weapon.
The laser weapons we have today can only be used to fry sensors or detonate explosives that are already present. It cannot be used to directly kill someone or penetrate tank armor.
The IoM managed to create a man portable, direct energy weapon that has enough power output to create a lethal beam of energy. That's simply incredible from an engineering and scientific point of view.
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Post by: Not Online!!!
Formosa wrote: Crazyterran wrote:Most Imperials don't even know how Warp Travel works, beyond needing a very specific breed of mutant to actually do it. And if I was a loyal Imperial Captain and my ship had begun to be boarded by a bunch of aliens, the first thing I would do is shoot my navigator, since i'm boned anyways, might as well make sure they can't make use of my ship.
and you would be right to, Chaos fleets love those navigators and capturing them is a priority given how mutated the chaos ones have gotten.
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't csm use possesed as kind of a helper dog for warp travels.
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Post by: admironheart
I think it is time for CHAOS Tau. We have Chaos Eldar (2nd ed codex) We have Chaos Squats, We have Chaos Humans and Marines. Who else is Chaos?
It is time for Chaos Tau. Demand it from GW !! The Tau will love Warp Travel
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Post by: Not Online!!!
 admironheart wrote:I think it is time for CHAOS Tau. We have Chaos Eldar (2nd ed codex) We have Chaos Squats, We have Chaos Humans and Marines. Who else is Chaos?
It is time for Chaos Tau. Demand it from GW !! The Tau will love Warp Travel
Before we do that, let us first get a propper r&h list please.
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Funnily enough, the lasgun is actually more advanced than anything they tau has made.
To my knowledge, the Tau have not invented direct-energy weapons. Their technology is mostly rail gun based, which is something we are developing today. The pulse rifle uses an electromagnetic field to propel a solid projectile, that has been turned into plasma through induction. I'm pretty sure the US navy successfully built a huge ass rail cannon that can do something like that.
What we can't do today is develop a laser weapon with the power output to kill a man. The power requirements are simply too demanding, especially for a man portable weapon.
The IoM managed to create a man portable, direct energy weapon that has enough power output to create a lethal beam of energy.
Wait doesnt almost every source mention that the tau pulse rifle is more effective than the lasgun? Why invent directed energy weopons when what you have is way better. Also the tau have captured scores of lasguns when the imperium abonded lots of soldiers during rhe Damocles crusade and they all defected to the tau. If they can reverse engineer a skim drive why not a lasgun. Its likely they dont have lasguns cause they dint want lasguns.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
And that's fine. More advanced doesn't necessarily mean more effective. The lasgun's advantage is mostly logistical anyway; for an army like the Imperial guard, where you have to supply billions of soldiers, you need something cheap, easy to produce and maintain, that doesn't require solid ammunition that would add to weight and bulk. The lasgun satisfies those criteria.
The Tau have a much smaller army and their supply lines aren't as long, so those traits aren't needed nor appealing to them. Its simply a difference in military doctrine.
That still doesn't change the fact that from an engineering standpoint, its a lot more difficult to invent and develop a lethal, main portable energy weapon than a rail gun type weapon. Which the IoM can do effortlessly.
Now, what the Tau could use is a lascannon, which packs more of a punch than the heavy rail rifle that broadsides units have, and apparently isn't as heavy as two imperial guardsmen or a single marine could carry it, as opposed to a battlesuit.
You'd think that if the Tau were so open minded about tech, they would have analysed it and develop their own forms of it, if only for scientific curiosity. But they didn't.
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Post by: Skaorn
There is a huge difference to the people who are saying you need psychics to enter the Warp.(again please provide a source that says this) and those of us, of which I am one of, who are saying that it's possible, just suicidal to do without some equivalent to a Navigator..
A warp drive let's you enter the Warp. A gellar field effectively projects a bubble of real space around a ship so Daemons hopefully can't enter or manifest. I have yet to see where these are psychic in nature
The Tau already employ forms of warp drives that work for them and can those they found dangerous. Both of these things exist in fluff, so I'm not getting where people are pulling this idea that the Tau can't use or even developed warp travel, as some are suggesting.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
admironheart wrote:I think it is time for CHAOS Tau. We have Chaos Eldar (2nd ed codex) We have Chaos Squats, We have Chaos Humans and Marines. Who else is Chaos?
It is time for Chaos Tau. Demand it from GW !! The Tau will love Warp Travel
Sure. Right after they introduce chaos Orks...
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Techpriestsupport wrote: admironheart wrote:I think it is time for CHAOS Tau. We have Chaos Eldar (2nd ed codex) We have Chaos Squats, We have Chaos Humans and Marines. Who else is Chaos?
It is time for Chaos Tau. Demand it from GW !! The Tau will love Warp Travel
Sure. Right after they introduce chaos Orks...
Already exists, if you go by the weird dakka section on Ork weapons that was in that ork version of the Regimental Standard.
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Post by: Mr Morden
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote: admironheart wrote:I think it is time for CHAOS Tau. We have Chaos Eldar (2nd ed codex) We have Chaos Squats, We have Chaos Humans and Marines. Who else is Chaos?
It is time for Chaos Tau. Demand it from GW !! The Tau will love Warp Travel
Sure. Right after they introduce chaos Orks...
Already exists, if you go by the weird dakka section on Ork weapons that was in that ork version of the Regimental Standard.
Been around for decades in the lore and older rulebooks plus occasionally in the codexes and novels
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:And that's fine. More advanced doesn't necessarily mean more effective. The lasgun's advantage is mostly logistical anyway; for an army like the Imperial guard, where you have to supply billions of soldiers, you need something cheap, easy to produce and maintain, that doesn't require solid ammunition. The lasgun satisfies those criteria.
The Tau have a much smaller army and their supply lines aren't as long, so those traits aren't needed nor appealing to them. Its simply a difference in military doctrine.
That still doesn't change the fact that from an engineering standpoint, its a lot more difficult to invent and develop a lethal, main portable energy weapon than a rail gun type weapon. Which the IoM can do effortlessly.
Now, what the Tau could use is a lascannon, which packs more of a punch than the heavy rail rifle that broadsides units have, and apparently isn't as heavy as two imperial guardsmen or a single marine could carry it, as opposed to a battlesuit.
You'd think that if the Tau were so open minded about tech, they would have analysed it and develop their own forms of it, if only for scientific curiosity. But they didn't.
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
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Post by: Skaorn
@ Cthulhuspy Pulse weapons fire a plasma pulse.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pulse_Rifle
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Post by: John Prins
Grey Templar wrote:
The 1st expansion might be that, but the 2nd and 3rd expansions are spread out such that the Tau who make trips regularly only survive for a few of them before simply becoming old. They use primitive cryogenic stasis for important individuals to preserve their lives, but that doesn't speed up their travel. It clearly takes years to travel between many places in the Tau empire, and for a species that only survives ~40 Terran years that is a massive problem.
It's a problem for individual Tau, but it keeps the race's resources and industry apace with its expansion. The Tau expand, fortify and expand on a generational scale rather than pushing out as fast as warp travel will allow and overextending themselves. Just the (generally) spherical nature of their expansion will require a slower and slower expansion as the volume increases faster than the travel distance does. Eventually the Tau will need faster warp travel as their empire gets large on the galactic scale, but a measured expansion is far better for the survival of the race than being able to travel anywhere in the galaxy in a relatively short (years/decades) span of time.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Read it again. It explicitly states that it uses a projectile that is turned into plasma through induction. It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an induction field accelerates a particle which breaks down as it leaves the barrel.
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Pulse_Rifle On firing, a ferromagnetic, solid slug is chambered from the magazine and turned into plasma by electromagnetic induction, as it would be relatively easy to alternate the coil current at frequencies sufficient enough to heat the coil to an extreme temperature while keeping it in the chamber. The solenoid is then charged fully, propelling the newly produced plasma out of the gun at an extreme velocity while keeping it cohesive
Particles are made of matter, not energy. Apparently in a white dwarf it stated that they used needle like projectiles, but that's a long time ago. There's also an image floating around showing the inner workings of a pulse rifle, that showed it using both solid ammunition and a battery pack, but I have not ascertained its origin. Tau pulse weapons are basically the guns from mass effect.
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Post by: chimera0205
Mr Morden wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote: admironheart wrote:I think it is time for CHAOS Tau. We have Chaos Eldar (2nd ed codex) We have Chaos Squats, We have Chaos Humans and Marines. Who else is Chaos?
It is time for Chaos Tau. Demand it from GW !! The Tau will love Warp Travel
Cool as Choas Tau would be the problem is that the etherals seem to have the ability to uncoorupt tau as I rememeber reading about a group of tau that got cprrupted but became uncorrupted after a short talk with an etheral. Soooo thats a thing. And besides ud much rather get some more auxilliarys than chaos tau. I want me some Nicassar batyle psychers and some demiurg.
Sure. Right after they introduce chaos Orks...
Already exists, if you go by the weird dakka section on Ork weapons that was in that ork version of the Regimental Standard.
Been around for decades in the lore and older rulebooks plus occasionally in the codexes and novels
47547
Post by: CthuluIsSpy
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:And that's fine. More advanced doesn't necessarily mean more effective. The lasgun's advantage is mostly logistical anyway; for an army like the Imperial guard, where you have to supply billions of soldiers, you need something cheap, easy to produce and maintain, that doesn't require solid ammunition. The lasgun satisfies those criteria. The Tau have a much smaller army and their supply lines aren't as long, so those traits aren't needed nor appealing to them. Its simply a difference in military doctrine. That still doesn't change the fact that from an engineering standpoint, its a lot more difficult to invent and develop a lethal, main portable energy weapon than a rail gun type weapon. Which the IoM can do effortlessly. Now, what the Tau could use is a lascannon, which packs more of a punch than the heavy rail rifle that broadsides units have, and apparently isn't as heavy as two imperial guardsmen or a single marine could carry it, as opposed to a battlesuit. You'd think that if the Tau were so open minded about tech, they would have analysed it and develop their own forms of it, if only for scientific curiosity. But they didn't.
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
I didn't ignore them. Tau Ions weapons were given to them by the Demiurg. They were not invented by the Tau. How are they more effective than las weapons? A Ion cannon is S7 D3 damage, isn't it? A lascannon is S9 D6 damage. Unless you mean the ion rifle, which is stronger than a lasgun, but again, the lasgun isn't meant to be strong, its meant to be cheap.
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:And that's fine. More advanced doesn't necessarily mean more effective. The lasgun's advantage is mostly logistical anyway; for an army like the Imperial guard, where you have to supply billions of soldiers, you need something cheap, easy to produce and maintain, that doesn't require solid ammunition. The lasgun satisfies those criteria.
The Tau have a much smaller army and their supply lines aren't as long, so those traits aren't needed nor appealing to them. Its simply a difference in military doctrine.
That still doesn't change the fact that from an engineering standpoint, its a lot more difficult to invent and develop a lethal, main portable energy weapon than a rail gun type weapon. Which the IoM can do effortlessly.
Now, what the Tau could use is a lascannon, which packs more of a punch than the heavy rail rifle that broadsides units have, and apparently isn't as heavy as two imperial guardsmen or a single marine could carry it, as opposed to a battlesuit.
You'd think that if the Tau were so open minded about tech, they would have analysed it and develop their own forms of it, if only for scientific curiosity. But they didn't.
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
I didn't ignore them.
Tau Ions weapons were given to them by the Demiurg. They were not invented by the Tau.
How are they more effective than las weapons? A Ion cannon is S7 D3 damage, isn't it? A lascannon is S9 D6 damage.
In game damage does not equal lore effectiveness. Also bieng willing to adapt alien tech is a kind of advancement in its own right. Also i kinda forget they got it from the demiurg. Good news is thats one more point against the person who daid the Tau were against adopting alien tech earlier this thread.
Edited by RiTides
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
I'd advise against referring to other posters in this forum as "dumbass". It's against rule 1.
Also, how does in game damage not reflect lore effectiveness? It is abstract, yes, but it can still be used as some form of objective metric in comparing various weapon strengths, no?
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'd advise against referring to other posters in this forum as "dumbass". It's against rule 1.
Also, how does in game damage not reflect lore effectiveness? It is abstract, yes, but it can still be used as some form of objective metric in comparing various weapon strengths, no?
Wait we have rules? Where do i find them? Sheer damage maybe but damage is far from the only thing determining a weopons effectiveness. Accuracy, range, etc matter just as much. And given what the theme if the tau is its orettyblikely that the ion cannon is surperior in both those respects
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Post by: Skaorn
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Read it again. It explicitly states that it uses a projectile that is turned into plasma through induction.
It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an induction field accelerates a particle which breaks down as it leaves the barrel.
Particles are made of matter, not energy.
Tau pulse weapons are basically the guns from mass effect.
I'm no type even going to get into this with you. I suggest you read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'd advise against referring to other posters in this forum as "dumbass". It's against rule 1. Also, how does in game damage not reflect lore effectiveness? It is abstract, yes, but it can still be used as some form of objective metric in comparing various weapon strengths, no?
Wait we have rules? Where do i find them? Sheer damage maybe but damage is far from the only thing determining a weopons effectiveness. Accuracy, range, etc matter just as much. And given what the theme if the tau is its orettyblikely that the ion cannon is surperior in both those respects
Accuracy depends on the user if we are going by game stats. There is nothing in the lore that states that there is a difference in accuracy between the las weapons and ion weapons, so we'll have to assume they are equal. There is a range stat though. Ion weapons tend to out range las weapons, so that's useful. Its not that obvious (they should really put the link in the introductions section), but the forum rules are here https://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp Automatically Appended Next Post: Skaorn wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote: Read it again. It explicitly states that it uses a projectile that is turned into plasma through induction. It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an induction field accelerates a particle which breaks down as it leaves the barrel.
Particles are made of matter, not energy. Tau pulse weapons are basically the guns from mass effect.
I'm no type even going to get into this with you. I suggest you read this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon
Alright, fair enough. I guess that counts. Its a really basic way of making a direct energy weapon, and all it is is making a projectile go so fast it breaks down into gas, but it will do. You'd think that would still be a bit solid when it leaves the barrel though, due to the range. Plasma tends to dissipate, but anyway. Still a lot easier to make than a lethal laser weapon.
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'd advise against referring to other posters in this forum as "dumbass". It's against rule 1.
Also, how does in game damage not reflect lore effectiveness? It is abstract, yes, but it can still be used as some form of objective metric in comparing various weapon strengths, no?
Wait we have rules? Where do i find them? Sheer damage maybe but damage is far from the only thing determining a weopons effectiveness. Accuracy, range, etc matter just as much. And given what the theme if the tau is its orettyblikely that the ion cannon is surperior in both those respects
Accuracy depends on the user if we are going by game stats.
There is nothing in the lore that states that there is a difference in accuracy between the las weapons and ion weapons, so we'll have to assume they are equal.
There is a range stat though. Ion weapons tend to out range las weapons, so that's useful.
Its not that obvious (they should really put the link in the introductions section), but the forum rules are here
https://www.dakkadakka.com/core/forum_rules.jsp
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Skaorn wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Read it again. It explicitly states that it uses a projectile that is turned into plasma through induction.
It fires a plasma pulse, which is generated when an induction field accelerates a particle which breaks down as it leaves the barrel.
Particles are made of matter, not energy.
Tau pulse weapons are basically the guns from mass effect.
I'm no type even going to get into this with you. I suggest you read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed-energy_weapon
Alright, fair enough. I guess that counts. Its a really basic way of making a direct energy weapon, and all it is is making a projectile go so fast it breaks down into gas, but it will do. You'd think that would still be a bit solid when it leaves the barrel though, due to the range. Plasma tends to dissipate, but anyway.
Still a lot easier to make than a lethal laser weapon.
Well gak we actually do have rules. I legitimately didnt know we had codified rules. I thought we just had a general "dont be a dick" policy and left it to the mods discretion. The more you know i guess.
Well i highly doubt all weopons have identical accuracy lore wise. That would be redicoulous.
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Post by: Crazyterran
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:And that's fine. More advanced doesn't necessarily mean more effective. The lasgun's advantage is mostly logistical anyway; for an army like the Imperial guard, where you have to supply billions of soldiers, you need something cheap, easy to produce and maintain, that doesn't require solid ammunition. The lasgun satisfies those criteria.
The Tau have a much smaller army and their supply lines aren't as long, so those traits aren't needed nor appealing to them. Its simply a difference in military doctrine.
That still doesn't change the fact that from an engineering standpoint, its a lot more difficult to invent and develop a lethal, main portable energy weapon than a rail gun type weapon. Which the IoM can do effortlessly.
Now, what the Tau could use is a lascannon, which packs more of a punch than the heavy rail rifle that broadsides units have, and apparently isn't as heavy as two imperial guardsmen or a single marine could carry it, as opposed to a battlesuit.
You'd think that if the Tau were so open minded about tech, they would have analysed it and develop their own forms of it, if only for scientific curiosity. But they didn't.
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
I didn't ignore them.
Tau Ions weapons were given to them by the Demiurg. They were not invented by the Tau.
How are they more effective than las weapons? A Ion cannon is S7 D3 damage, isn't it? A lascannon is S9 D6 damage.
In game damage does not equal lore effectiveness. Also bieng willing to adapt alien tech is a kind of advancement in its own right. Also i kinda forget they got it from the demiurg. Good news is thats one more point against the dumbass who daid the Tau were against adopting alien tech earlier this thread. Suck it random internet guy.
The guy who can't even spell is calling me a dumbass because the Tau have been shown to look at Imperial stuff and toss it out, and have been shown to be close minded to even their own researchers if it doesn't follow their own style of doing things.
Alright. I'll just hit the yellow exclamation point.
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Post by: chimera0205
Crazyterran wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:And that's fine. More advanced doesn't necessarily mean more effective. The lasgun's advantage is mostly logistical anyway; for an army like the Imperial guard, where you have to supply billions of soldiers, you need something cheap, easy to produce and maintain, that doesn't require solid ammunition. The lasgun satisfies those criteria.
The Tau have a much smaller army and their supply lines aren't as long, so those traits aren't needed nor appealing to them. Its simply a difference in military doctrine.
That still doesn't change the fact that from an engineering standpoint, its a lot more difficult to invent and develop a lethal, main portable energy weapon than a rail gun type weapon. Which the IoM can do effortlessly.
Now, what the Tau could use is a lascannon, which packs more of a punch than the heavy rail rifle that broadsides units have, and apparently isn't as heavy as two imperial guardsmen or a single marine could carry it, as opposed to a battlesuit.
You'd think that if the Tau were so open minded about tech, they would have analysed it and develop their own forms of it, if only for scientific curiosity. But they didn't.
Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
I didn't ignore them.
Tau Ions weapons were given to them by the Demiurg. They were not invented by the Tau.
How are they more effective than las weapons? A Ion cannon is S7 D3 damage, isn't it? A lascannon is S9 D6 damage.
In game damage does not equal lore effectiveness. Also bieng willing to adapt alien tech is a kind of advancement in its own right. Also i kinda forget they got it from the demiurg. Good news is thats one more point against the dumbass who daid the Tau were against adopting alien tech earlier this thread. Suck it random internet guy.
The guy who can't even spell is calling me a dumbass because the Tau have been shown to look at Imperial stuff and toss it out, and have been shown to be close minded to even their own researchers if it doesn't follow their own style of doing things.
Alright. I'll just hit the yellow exclamation point.
Im sorry for calling you a dumbass. It was a bit too far and uncalled for.
But if there so closed minded then how do you explain them readily accepting Demiurg tech and the alien skim drives.
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Post by: RiTides
In the future, please just hit the yellow triangle but don't post in the thread of there is an issue for mods to deal with - we're completely OT at this point!
I've edited the language above. Please remember our #1 rule is just "Be polite", and this includes most namecalling.
Back on topic now, please...
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Post by: MalfunctBot
I'm pretty sure you can enter the Warp without using a Navigator or even without using a psyker. When a ship uses Warp travel it uses onboard instruments to determine how long they have to travel on a set course/Warp current before they reach their destination. The Warp, of course, is not perfectly predictable, and a ship can easily get nudged off its course by the currents of the Warp, so a ship would have to regularly reemerge from the Warp to realign its position and course in real space before reentering and continuing the voyage.
All a navigator does is allow the ship to readjust its course mid flight by using the Astronomicon as a reference point. Since the ship doesn't have to regularly exit the Warp to recalibrate, and doesnt constantly go off course, the journey goes much faster.
Not every last ship in the Imperium has a navigator. An Agri-World supplying a Hive World the next system over doesn't need a Navigator, because they won't be in the Warp long enough to get beaten off course.
What you DO need, however, is a Gellar field (unless you're an Ork or got Ork DNA like the Kroot), and possible explanations formp why the T'au don't have them are:
1. Not having enough experiance with deep Waro travel to develop it
Or the less likely but more fun explanation of:
2. The Gellar Field is actually upper Dark Age of Technology level of advanced tech and is simply beyond the T'au with their current level of technology. The Gellar Field is just so utterly important it's one of the few things Humanity didn't lose during the Age of Strife.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I would say that, while useful as an abstraction, you can't really use in-game stats to definitively say X is more powerful then Y. Fluff wise I think Rail weapons are more powerful than Lascannons, same way the Vanquisher is way better at Anti-Tank than a Punisher and the Rapid-Firing rocket launcher given to the 1 Million Astartes is more powerful than the Pulse Weapons given to the 100s of Millions of Firewarriors.
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Post by: Solar-powered_chainsword
Grey Templar wrote:
Complaining that I'm a raging Imperial fanboi, when you're doing the exact same thing for the Tau. Yes, that is in-fact proof. We're not using legal standards here. Tau observers believe the Kroot might have secret facilities, for us the omnipresent observer that is proof that they exist.
Yeah, that's definitely not proof, by any standard, legal or otherwise. The Tau don't say they know there are secret facilities, so even from their perspective it's a possibility, not a certainty, but for us as the observer, the fact that the source of this belief is an entity who clearly isn't all knowing makes it very clear that this isn't proven.
In fact, if you really want to take the whole "To us as players" approach, we know for a fact that it's not proof as GW writers specifically try to go with the "It may be true, it may be false" approach to allow multiple views of the lore, and of course, the GW stance on lore is that even the lore can be wrong, as while it's canon, it's not necessarily true.
It's quite possible the Kroot have hidden shipyards, but it's also quite likely that the ships were built before the Kroot's general move away from technology, where they started to do the whole "Eat to improve our genetic structure" rather than relying on technology, and these ships have only been maintained since, which was implied in Battlefleet Gothic, I believe. Automatically Appended Next Post: CthuluIsSpy wrote:In order for the Kroot to have a lucrative interstellar mercenary business, they have to have the industrial capacity to create the ships to successfully pull it off. Ergo, they must have shipyards somewhere, and are not the primitive savages the Tau seem to believe they are.
Not necessarily. They might've only HAD the industrial capacity, before they moved away from technology and took some serious hits from Ork invasions, or they might simply hire out transports. We've seen other species like the Tarellians who clearly have no center of industry to make ships, but do well as mercenaries.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
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Post by: Solar-powered_chainsword
CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'd advise against referring to other posters in this forum as "dumbass". It's against rule 1.
Also, how does in game damage not reflect lore effectiveness? It is abstract, yes, but it can still be used as some form of objective metric in comparing various weapon strengths, no?
Definitely not. Game stats were never meant to reflect lore. It's why space marines are so terrible on Tabletop compared to in-lore. The stats were made for balance and being able to get a good, sizeable force of diverse figures that's a challenge to get to work together effectively, rather than accurately showing us power levels. Automatically Appended Next Post: Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
The question of tech is a really difficult one in 40k. I mean, who has better tech, modern day USA, or a bunch of nomadic cavemen who found a bunch of plasma weapons and power armor they can use but don't understand? The Imperium can reproduce some pretty incredible tech, and they have far more in storage that they can never rebuild, but they have a serious lack of knowledge and understanding. They're cavemen who looted their high-tech ancestors and took over their factories, really.
The T'au, on the other hand, are the exact opposite. Sure, they don't have the level of stuff the Imperium has at its craziest, but they understand their stuff, they can reproduce it, and above all, they can improve it at unprecedented levels. They're the modern US, or any modern nation, really, with an actual understanding of what they have and a fairly decent universal tech level.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
Hah, no. Tau tech only looks more advanced because they can afford to distribute tech equally amongst all citizens. The Imperium can't do that due to their size, which is why they look relatively primitive, but they still have access to some impressive bits of tech. Like functional laser weapons. The admech do know how to create tech and understand it. The artisans' job is to build it, and the genetors' job is to study alien tech so they know how to defeat it, which implies that the admech are not, in fact, primitive monks but do know a thing or two about science. What the admech don't like is innovation, and in a way they have a point; why bother inventing a new thing if humanity already invented it, and its probably better than anything you can ever make? Just find the STC. I guess they are kind of like WHFB dwarfs in a way, in that they are skilled at what they do, they just don't like new things and will grumble if someone tries to do something different.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
chimera0205 wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:chimera0205 wrote:As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.
What good are warp engines when they can't navigate the warp. They can't and will never do warp travel, they need to evolve to do that which means that unless we some some terrible ex-machina 'surprise they found out how to navigate the warp by praying to chickens' they will never gain warp travel. They aren't that technologically advanced either, they are nothing compared to the eldar or mankind at its zenith so I doubt they will find a way to navigate the warp without using the webway. Tau players just need to enjoy or live with the fact that the Tau will never be big movers on the galactic scale.
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
They don't to any significant way, they can only navigate in terms of shallow jumps so no my friend you are the one that's wrong.
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Post by: AegisGrimm
Kroot would never become the Tau Empire's 'Navigators' because they would see that as stagnation. The entire reason the have Merc forces is to combat the Tau caste system's ideas for how they should fit into the Empire, so they can secretly go out and gain genetic diversity.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Yeah, I don't think a warrior race who constantly seeks new genetic material would be content serving as mere navigators. That poor kroot would get so bored and so hungry.
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Yeah, I don't think a warrior race who constantly seeks new genetic material would be content serving as mere navigators. That poor kroot would get so bored and so hungry.
they could be rewarded for thier services as navigators with meat from the strongest enemies on the battlefield after a victory. maybe that could work?
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
So they become like dogs waiting for scraps from their masters? Don't you think the kroot would find that insulting?
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
The kroot navigators would be able to keep an eye on the tau's movement and possibly gather useful data to relay to the kroot.
Plus they could generate horrible stenches during navigation, claiming it was a necessary part of navigating, just to troll the tau. 
(See "letters from pecht").
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:So they become like dogs waiting for scraps from their masters? Don't you think the kroot would find that insulting?
No their valued workers fullfilling thier duty for the greator good and recieving the rewards they desire in return. no diffrent from any other employee in any other society just recieving there preferred form of payment instead of standard currency
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Techpriestsupport wrote:I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.
Not exactly. The Tau are omnivores, but they have only eaten meat relatively recently. Which actually makes them extremely odd, since Herbivores generally lack the ability to support brains sophisticated enough to be sentient. Simply not enough protein or energy dense calories to support the energy demands of a large brain.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
For all we know the tau home world offers a variety of plants extremely rich in protein. There are plants on earth that are quite effective sources of proteins.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:So they become like dogs waiting for scraps from their masters? Don't you think the kroot would find that insulting?
No their valued workers fullfilling thier duty for the greator good and recieving the rewards they desire in return. no diffrent from any other employee in any other society just recieving there preferred form of payment instead of standard currency
Except they're a warrior people who prefer to eat the flesh of warriors, as their religious beliefs revolve around preserving the warrior spirit of the vanquished. They aren't animals who'll just eat anything you give them.
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Post by: Irbis
Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.
chimera0205 wrote:As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...
chimera0205 wrote:not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking
Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating... Automatically Appended Next Post: chimera0205 wrote:Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).
A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...
Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?
And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.
Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.
Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop 
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
^ Yeah, these are good points. The likelihood of Tau getting a navigator to actually cooperate with them is really slim, Kroot will not just roll over for the greater good, the Tau will not let them in control their fleets, and we don't even know how good the Kroot's 6th sense is.  Irbis wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech? And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of. Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination. Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop
Ah, edits Isn't a servoskull more of a cyborg than an actual AI? There's still a bit of meat in there, isn't there? Not that that's inferior to AI or anything; different method, same result. The Ad mech aren't slouches and can do some pretty impressive stuff with bio-engineering and cybernetics. Yeah, the imperials do use grav-chute technology, and the aforementioned servoskull as a grav-engine. And the primaris vehicles use grav-tech as well, and they are making those now. So much for no imperial grav-vehicles.
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Post by: chimera0205
Irbis wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.
chimera0205 wrote:As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...
chimera0205 wrote:not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking
Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote:Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).
A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...
Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?
And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.
Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.
Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop
Ok but if tbe imperiums tech is so much greator explain why almost every single source puts the tau average standard of living higher than the Imperiums? Name 1 tau planet thats stuck in the Fuedal era or the stone age. I can name plenty of imperium plabets. Having a couple cool pieces of tech locked away in mechanicus vaults matters not when its spread so thin that ypuve had to send in regiments armed with MUSKETS! Before.
Also bs on the Pulse rifle being worse than the lasgun. Every piece of fluff ive seen suggests it out ranges the lasgun, has more stopping power, and only has a slightly lower tste of fire. Less musket to sniper rifle more M16 to AK47.
Teah servo skulls are impressive but not as impressive as the fully sapient AI (or at least clise enough ti easily pass a turning test) the Tau have been creating recently. Best part is it hasnt even tried to kill them yet. So already way outdoing the imperium on that front.
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Post by: Mr Morden
chimera0205 wrote: Irbis wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.
chimera0205 wrote:As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...
chimera0205 wrote:not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking
Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chimera0205 wrote:Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).
A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...
Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?
And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.
Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.
Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop
Ok but if tbe imperiums tech is so much greator explain why almost every single source puts the tau average standard of living higher than the Imperiums? Name 1 tau planet thats stuck in the Fuedal era or the stone age. I can name plenty of imperium plabets. Having a couple cool pieces of tech locked away in mechanicus vaults matters not when its spread so thin that ypuve had to send in regiments armed with MUSKETS! Before.
Also bs on the Pulse rifle being worse than the lasgun. Every piece of fluff ive seen suggests it out ranges the lasgun, has more stopping power, and only has a slightly lower tste of fire. Less musket to sniper rifle more M16 to AK47.
Teah servo skulls are impressive but not as impressive as the fully sapient AI (or at least clise enough ti easily pass a turning test) the Tau have been creating recently. Best part is it hasnt even tried to kill them yet. So already way outdoing the imperium on that front.
Have you read any of the fluff ever?
Many Imperial citizens live the way they do because thats what works for the Imperium - its like 1984, they couild give everyone a better life - they choose not to. Some planets have better tech, some much better - its anotehr bizare thing about the Imperium that they use grav tech for civilians but less so for military - but thats because thats how the Imperium works. Just becuase soemthing is better does not mean they will use or not unitl its undergone a thousand years of testing, religious scruitny and comparison - and then the results may be ignored or forgotten.
Plus as someone mentioned their are less Tau in their whole race than a few paltry hive worlds.
Pulse rifle/lasgun - different weapons.
Servo skulls are there presciely becuase of the AI revolution - something likely to happen to the Tau sooner rather than later.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.
I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle. They are different types of weapons that have different purposes.
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.
I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.
Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil. I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.
Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.
It is if you need to transport a lot of them or move them them. No, you misunderstand about the ammunition. I don't mean in terms of hollow point and FMJ, I mean in terms of required to make the weapon work at all. You need a solid projectile to form the plasma, and you need a powersource to power the electromagnetic field. If you don't have both of these the gun will not work. In terms of logistics a pulse rifle is terrible. Now, for the Tau logistics isn't that much of a concern as they have short supply lines and a relatively small army. For the IoM its a huge concern as they have to deal with massive supply lines and a massive army.
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Post by: chimera0205
CthuluIsSpy wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.
I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.
Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.
It is if you need to transport a lot of them or move them them.
No, you misunderstand about the ammunition. I don't mean in terms of hollow point and FMJ, I mean in terms of required to make the weapon work at all. You need a solid projectile to form the plasma, and you need a powersource to power the electromagnetic field. If you don't have both of these the gun will not work.
In terms of logistics a pulse rifle is terrible. Now, for the Tau logistics isn't that much of a concern as they have short supply lines and a relatively small army. For the IoM its a huge concern as they have to deal with massive supply lines and a massive army.
But as you said thats not a problem for the tau so what does ot matter?
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Post by: chimera0205
Mr Morden wrote:chimera0205 wrote: Irbis wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.
chimera0205 wrote:As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
You're completely wrong. I don't know why you latched to Kroot, not only their loyalty is dubious at best, you're assuming they would even tell Tau about their psykers, that the Tau would be willing to become subject to Kroot whims and pay the price of handing the reins to their entire fleet to client race even if they knew about it, and ignoring the fact that psykers are not equal and the possibility Kroot are anywhere near as good as human or eldar navigators is close to zero, especially without warp beacons of their own. It's like saying North Korea could produce supercomputer better than the USA because their allies, the Chinese, have computer scientists, all you need to do is to get a few of them and get cracking...
chimera0205 wrote:not to mention the actual himan navigators that theyve likely acquired feom all the human worlds theyve been yoinking
Wrong. You're aware that the 'human navigators' are obscenely rich mutants having access to the best stuff Imperium has to offer and they most definitely NOT live on random backwater nowheres? Seeing they are able to afford palaces on even such expensive and hard to get into world as Terra? Why would any navigator agree to work with idiot xenos who can't offer anything of value to him, who are so stupid they want you to fly without gellar fields (and when you patently explain the issue to them while saying that no, you have no idea how to build actual gellar field and are dismissed as fable teller and superstitious human you can only roll your eyes and tell them to get bent), and finally, and most importantly, why would you work for them knowing if you do so, your entire navigator clan will instaantly condemn you to death to prove their loyalty once anyone important hears about it? Especially seeing traitor navigator is actually big enough deal to warrant assassination order given to one of the skull headed boys? Only a complete moron would do that, and I can easily see a captured navigator choosing suicide by flying the ship into first navigational hazard he can find instead of really cooperating...
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chimera0205 wrote:Well ypud be making some good points if it wernt for the fact that you toltally ignored Tau Ion weopons. Witch is even more effective energy projection weopons than las weopons. Its jjst only used on vehicles and battlesuits and theyve only recently got them man portable.
A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).
A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...
Techpriestsupport wrote:Tau tech is vaslty superior to imperial tech, period. The imperium can barely make and maintain grav/repulsor vehicles. The tau mass produce them enough to use them on disposable drones!
You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?
And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.
Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.
Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop
Ok but if tbe imperiums tech is so much greator explain why almost every single source puts the tau average standard of living higher than the Imperiums? Name 1 tau planet thats stuck in the Fuedal era or the stone age. I can name plenty of imperium plabets. Having a couple cool pieces of tech locked away in mechanicus vaults matters not when its spread so thin that ypuve had to send in regiments armed with MUSKETS! Before.
Also bs on the Pulse rifle being worse than the lasgun. Every piece of fluff ive seen suggests it out ranges the lasgun, has more stopping power, and only has a slightly lower tste of fire. Less musket to sniper rifle more M16 to AK47.
Teah servo skulls are impressive but not as impressive as the fully sapient AI (or at least clise enough ti easily pass a turning test) the Tau have been creating recently. Best part is it hasnt even tried to kill them yet. So already way outdoing the imperium on that front.
Have you read any of the fluff ever?
Many Imperial citizens live the way they do because thats what works for the Imperium - its like 1984, they couild give everyone a better life - they choose not to. Some planets have better tech, some much better - its anotehr bizare thing about the Imperium that they use grav tech for civilians but less so for military - but thats because thats how the Imperium works. Just becuase soemthing is better does not mean they will use or not unitl its undergone a thousand years of testing, religious scruitny and comparison - and then the results may be ignored or forgotten.
Plus as someone mentioned their are less Tau in their whole race than a few paltry hive worlds.
Pulse rifle/lasgun - different weapons.
Servo skulls are there presciely becuase of the AI revolution - something likely to happen to the Tau sooner rather than later.
First of all we still have no idea why the men of iron rebbelled. It could be because of influence from the void dragon, it could be that they treated them like slaves causing them to turn to choas out of desperation, it could even be that they just fethed up there programming. We have no idea why and it shouldnt be assumed that the same thing will happen to the tau.
Maybe if the imperium actually tried to uplift and better the lives of its citizens theyd all stop turning to choas.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:chimera0205 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:Pulse rifles just don't have a slower rate of fire; they are also heavier, requires two types of ammunition, larger and have more recoil.
I suppose a better comparison would be a battle rifle to an assault rifle.
Only one of those is a definitive negative. Bigger and heavier has never meant automatically worse. And two types of ammunition gives variety and options.
It is if you need to transport a lot of them or move them them.
No, you misunderstand about the ammunition. I don't mean in terms of hollow point and FMJ, I mean in terms of required to make the weapon work at all. You need a solid projectile to form the plasma, and you need a powersource to power the electromagnetic field. If you don't have both of these the gun will not work.
In terms of logistics a pulse rifle is terrible. Now, for the Tau logistics isn't that much of a concern as they have short supply lines and a relatively small army. For the IoM its a huge concern as they have to deal with massive supply lines and a massive army.
But as you said thats not a problem for the tau so what does ot matter?
They are still drawbacks. Just because it isn't that much of a concern for Tau doesn't mean there's a downside to it. Especially when you are comparing it to another type of weapon, and go on about how great pulse rifles are.
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Post by: pm713
CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.
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Post by: Formosa
pm713 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.
Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM
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Post by: pm713
Formosa wrote:pm713 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.
Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM
I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.
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Post by: Tiennos
Formosa wrote:pm713 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.
Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM
The Tau seem to be functionally immune to chaos corruption, so it's unlikely to end exactly the same way it did for the Imperium, though. I could see some scientist trying to create technology using the warp and end up with possessed stuff, but an a scale large enough to topple their empire? I don't know... Maybe if they'd started running everything through a galaxy-spanning AI network then it would certainly suck if daemons got inside of that.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
I was going by older background that said grav vehicles were seriously limited in the imperium, being mostly ancient relics carefully maintained. Maybe they retconned that but early on they were seriously limited in availability.
As to tau drone vs servo skull, let's see... Two pulse carbines vs a las pistol....
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Post by: AegisGrimm
Also remember that in Battlefleet Gothic, the Tau have client races far more psychic than Kroot, like the Nicassar.
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Post by: Formosa
I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.
neither was the imperium, the emperor was the figurehead but the day to day running of the imperium is done by planetary governors etc. also, arent the Tau effectively run by the chief ethereal, the Aun'O, used to be Aun'Va, so yeah, pretty sure its the same general thing. Automatically Appended Next Post: The Tau seem to be functionally immune to chaos corruption, so it's unlikely to end exactly the same way it did for the Imperium, though. I could see some scientist trying to create technology using the warp and end up with possessed stuff, but an a scale large enough to topple their empire? I don't know... Maybe if they'd started running everything through a galaxy-spanning AI network then it would certainly suck if daemons got inside of that.
The Tau are in no way immune to warp corruption and we dont know to what extent they are resistant to the temptations of Chaos (chaos corruption), the greater goods ideology seems to indicate it would be very difficult to corrupt one, but not impossible, also you would only need to find the right circumstances to cripple the Tau, exactly like the Chaos gods did to the Imperium.
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Post by: CthuluIsSpy
pm713 wrote: Formosa wrote:pm713 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple. The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists. The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.
Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM
I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.
Neither are the Imperium...they are ruled by several idiots Nah seriously though, the High Lords are doing an ok job, given the circumstances. Its not easy ruling an empire, especially one as huge as the IoM
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Post by: Mr Morden
pm713 wrote: Formosa wrote:pm713 wrote: CthuluIsSpy wrote:The Tau have not created warp tech because they can't and because they don't want to. Its that simple.
The Warp isn't just another dimension. Its a psychically charged, metaphysical realm that only some gifted individuals are strongly attuned to. The Tau, as a species, are not attuned to it, and they don't even think it exists.
The Tau building warp tech would be like asking a blind man to paint a depiction of a pink elephant. Its not going to happen, at least successfully, even if they have help. Keep in mind that one of their client races, the nicassar, are potent psykers, and they still haven't developed a successful warp drive.
Tau 100% know about the Warp and think it exists they just consider it something you can explain with science which is the issue. They're trying to apply the scientific method to a dimension where you can change physics by thinking hard enough. The idea they don't know about it is silly considering there are huge chunks of space covered in Warp.
Last time a race did that was Humanity during the great crusade, hence why I liken the Tau to the Crusade Era IOM, expansionist, dynamic, creating new tech etc. but think Deamons are warp Xenos and magic etc. is just superstition.... did end well for IOM
I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.
Hilarious - the chief Etherial is/was a dick -
Now of course he is a symbolic hologram on a throne as the Empire could not cope with his loss - oh so totally different from the Emperor on the Golden Throne..... 
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Post by: pm713
Formosa wrote:I expect it to end better for the Tau as they aren't ruled by a single idiot.
neither was the imperium, the emperor was the figurehead but the day to day running of the imperium is done by planetary governors etc. also, arent the Tau effectively run by the chief ethereal, the Aun'O, used to be Aun'Va, so yeah, pretty sure its the same general thing.
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The Tau seem to be functionally immune to chaos corruption, so it's unlikely to end exactly the same way it did for the Imperium, though. I could see some scientist trying to create technology using the warp and end up with possessed stuff, but an a scale large enough to topple their empire? I don't know... Maybe if they'd started running everything through a galaxy-spanning AI network then it would certainly suck if daemons got inside of that.
The Tau are in no way immune to warp corruption and we dont know to what extent they are resistant to the temptations of Chaos (chaos corruption), the greater goods ideology seems to indicate it would be very difficult to corrupt one, but not impossible, also you would only need to find the right circumstances to cripple the Tau, exactly like the Chaos gods did to the Imperium.
They pretty much were in the GC with the Emperor giving godlike armies to people who were clearly nutters. Automatically Appended Next Post: Techpriestsupport wrote:I was going by older background that said grav vehicles were seriously limited in the imperium, being mostly ancient relics carefully maintained. Maybe they retconned that but early on they were seriously limited in availability.
As to tau drone vs servo skull, let's see... Two pulse carbines vs a las pistol....
IIRC the Imperium basically ran out of resources to produce lots of grav vehicles in 40k outside Land Speeders and small things like servo skulls. Although Cawl has apparently brought a LOT of material with him to make new grav vehicles.
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Post by: Mr Morden
Imperial Military grav vehicles are rare but other grav tech is used extensively.
Civilian ones not so much.
Its not just can you do something - its do you need to and does it cause more logistical, C3 or other issues if you do.
Not everything that the Imperium does will make immeidate sense to us (or even them) but there is usually a reason
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Post by: godardc
Repulsor don't use the same tech that land speeder, they don't grav they hmm repulse (they even crush a predator by flying over in Dark Imperium). Ok it is still gakky but at least they haven't retconned this...
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Post by: MalfunctBot
Irbis wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.
The T'au Empire does not have less population than some Hive Worlds, that is absurd. And to say that the T'au only live because of plot armour is, again, absurd. Yes, the only reason they are still alive is because they exist in an area of the galaxy where Imperial power is relatively thin, and the Imperium has much bigger things to worry about to be able to go after the T'au. But is that really so unrealistic, or a core theme of the setting where the power of the galaxy spanning empire is stretched thinner and thinner as it is beset on all sides?
A ) They actually far less effective and bulkier (just compare pulse rifle or ion rifle size to Scion volley gun, a vastly superior weapon, not to mention not killing the user quickly because the only power source Tau could build was highly radioactive), B ) the few Tau weapons that are more damaging than Imperial ones are usually far more expensive, have significant drawbacks, and in general only work due to author's fiat (like ignoring the fact it would run out of ammunition in seconds or overheat and melt, like these action movies heroes firing 20 bullet mag for hours).
A good comparison of Tau tech to Imperial would be Napoleonic era gun compared to 21st century sniper rifle - sure, maybe it deals more damage and has greater range, but technologically is vastly inferior, can only be moved by battle suit, and you can barely hit the broad side of a barn without 20 markerlights to compensate...
The way you wrote that makes it seem like ALL T'au weapons quickly kill the user because of radiation, which is blatantly untrue. The only weapons that present a danger to the user are Ion weapons, and ONLY when overcharged.
You can't really compare a special weapon issued only to the most elite of the Guard to the common small arm used by the T'au's basic foot soldiers, and the Ion Rifle and Volley gun are about even (Ion better when overcharged, Volley otherwise, keeping in mind the two guns are designed for different targets), and considering it needs a cable connected to a backpack to even function, I don't think it can complain about Ion Rifles being bulky (and the pulse one isn't even bulky).
Until you actually provide examples capable of having a discussion over, I'm just going to say T’au are hardly the only faction that benefits from author fiat (if they even do, again, examples please). A Bolter, for example, should in no way shape or form be capable of holding 20 rounds unless the magazine casually and unknowingly uses pocket dimension technologies (which, I admit, would be very Imperium).
You mean, like, say, servo skull. Which is only one of the, oh, most iconic pieces of Imperial tech?
And, by the way, is tenth the size of Tau drone, far more maneuverable, less expensive, carries much better sensors, and do a lot of things in books Tau drones can only dream of.
Barely make and maintain? Gee, I wonder why in Cain series we see human worlds with highways filled with grav cars. Must have been Cain's imagination.
Or, you know, Elysian (and similar) regiments who use this impossibly inferior and difficult to make technology as tiny, disposable grav backpacks (when Tau grav unit is the entire rear of battlesuit, isn't removable because unlike Imperial ones, is too expensive to discard, and they have no personal sized ones, period). Someone must have failed to memo them they throw away a fortune in archaotech after each combat drop
“Tenth the size”
A tau drone is not ten times the size of a human head
“Far more maneuverable”
I'd say their on the same level
“Less expensive”
Of course a skull with an anti-grave engine installed is going to be less expensive than the drone that is actually armed and armoured.
“Carries much better sensors.”
I'd say Drones and Servo Skulls built for the same purpose (i.e. not comparing a sensor skull to a Gun Drone) would only edge out above each other slightly, if not simply being on the same level.
“And do a lot of things in books that Drones can only dream of.”
Examples? And if what you say is true, why doesn’t the Imperium apply them militarily like the T'au do their drones? Those blue fish people and their frisbees seem to be doing well, if Servo Skulls are so much better than why doesn't the Imperium send out swarms of skulls equipped with Volley Guns?
You really can't compare a Grav-Chut to a Battlesuit Jetpack. One's a parachute that only works when skydiving the other is a Jet Pack actually capable of lifting you off the ground and flying you around mid battle.
Also “non-removable?” How is that a drawback? In what circumstance would you WANT to remove what is probably the greatest strength of the XV8, or any other suit that has them.
And the Tau do actually have personal sized Grav-Chutes. Just look at the XV15 Stealth Suit, which is a Firewarrior in slightly bulkier armour, and possess a Jet Pack. The 7th Ed Codex even states the T'au possess “single-use grav boosters” to Deepstrike in Broadsides. If they can use the equivalent of grav-chutes to drop in a multi-tonne battlesuit, why would making one for the common Firewarrior be out of their reach?
And tech suited for civilian use is not the same as tech suited for military use, or else they would've made things like the Taurox anti-grav.
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Post by: Solar-powered_chainsword
Delvarus Centurion wrote:chimera0205 wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote:chimera0205 wrote:As you all know the Tau are known for thier slow bt safe FTL witch merely skims the warp instead of going all in. why is that? why havmt they figured out warp travel yet? you may be thinking "but chimera they have no warp engines" and your dead wrong. I present to you the Kroot warsphere http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Warsphere a warp capable vessel that the kroot posses severl of witch has been recorded bieng used to aide the tau in battles so its not like the kroot are hiding them from them. your probably thinking now "ok chimera maybe they do access to warp drives but they have no navigators" and once again dead fething wrong. they have an entire planet chock full of them. The Kroot are stated to have a sort of sixth sense for finding planets in the warp. how do you think they pilot those warspheres so why the actual feth hasnt the most inginuitive race in 40k put two and two together and started reproducing warp drives in mass and throwing kroot on all thier sips to act as navigaters? this makes no sense? all the pieces are right fething under there noses.
What good are warp engines when they can't navigate the warp. They can't and will never do warp travel, they need to evolve to do that which means that unless we some some terrible ex-machina 'surprise they found out how to navigate the warp by praying to chickens' they will never gain warp travel. They aren't that technologically advanced either, they are nothing compared to the eldar or mankind at its zenith so I doubt they will find a way to navigate the warp without using the webway. Tau players just need to enjoy or live with the fact that the Tau will never be big movers on the galactic scale.
As I mentioned in the OP the Kroot have a kinda 6th senss for navigating the warp. So your very very wrong on all fronts
They don't to any significant way, they can only navigate in terms of shallow jumps so no my friend you are the one that's wrong.
Sorry, where's it said that the Kroot can only make shallow warp jumps? The fact that Kroot mercenaries are far more spread out than the Tau would indicate that they can make big warp jumps just fine. Automatically Appended Next Post:  AegisGrimm wrote:Kroot would never become the Tau Empire's 'Navigators' because they would see that as stagnation. The entire reason the have Merc forces is to combat the Tau caste system's ideas for how they should fit into the Empire, so they can secretly go out and gain genetic diversity.
There could easily be a branching in the Kroot, with a particular caste of Navigators emerging, as part of their duty to the T'au Empire for having Pech saved, who would focus on becoming better navigators, while the majority of Kroot stay as warriors. They're a pretty massive race, it's not like they'er ALL warriors who want a life of violence. Automatically Appended Next Post: Irbis wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:Having the tau and Terra on the same side of the warp might may save both. Now that guilleman is in charge and was revived partially due to an eldar he may be willing to ally with some xenos races, and a tau eldar imperial alliance could be very powerful indeed.
How would it be powerful? Tau empire has literally less population than some hive worlds. Sure, individual citizen is maybe more productive but they simply don't have the economy of scale or resources Imperium has. It would be like a mosquito allying with an elephant. They are still around only due to deux-ex-machina magic asspulls constantly saving their behind (like the whole "we captured Imperial anti-air missile made with technology more advanced than anything we have ever seen by flying up to it and stealing it without it exploding, and somehow reverse engineered it into anti-tank missile more powerful than eldar or necron guns in days, then pulled a huge stockpile of it out of our arses despite being light-years away from any Tau world, never mind one with advanced munitions factory" nonsense) and if they were realistically written in any way every single Imperial crusade would be a colossal defeat to Tau not ending with collapse of their Empire only because IoM has more important things to do after reclaiming lost worlds.
The Imperium suffer from some pretty brutal diseconomies of scale, though. They're prone to constant disruptions due to their sheer size, and massive inefficiencies are widespread throughout their nation. The Imperium is surrounded by endless threats, and as far as it goes, the T'au are in the sweet spot. The spare resources the Imperium can manage to find need to be rapidly used to stop WAAAGH!s or Tyranid Hive Fleets or endless enemies that are about to devastate the Imperium, so spare forces from across the Imperium can't be used in big offenses here.
However, the Tau are also fairly powerful, in that they're not some backwater of feral Orks, Exodites or just any common Xenos Empire that can be invaded. Since they're not a big enough threat to justify taking away from the thousands of serious life or death battles happening across the Imperium, that means all that can be spared to deal with them are the forces in the areas around the Tau, and they're simply not impressive enough to take on the Tau. Some aspiring Noble Lord or power-hungry general can't just waltz in and start taking Tau territories, because they don't have the fire power. So the T'au is big enough to wipe out any localized Imperial threats, and they Imperium is too busy dealing with galaxy-ending threats to be able to spare the troops to deal with the Tau.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
Grey Templar wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.
Not exactly. The Tau are omnivores, but they have only eaten meat relatively recently. Which actually makes them extremely odd, since Herbivores generally lack the ability to support brains sophisticated enough to be sentient. Simply not enough protein or energy dense calories to support the energy demands of a large brain.
Not true, gorillas are herbivores, they have a capacity for language, koko the gorilla learned sign language and actually created her own signs.
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Post by: Grey Templar
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Grey Templar wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.
Not exactly. The Tau are omnivores, but they have only eaten meat relatively recently. Which actually makes them extremely odd, since Herbivores generally lack the ability to support brains sophisticated enough to be sentient. Simply not enough protein or energy dense calories to support the energy demands of a large brain.
Not true, gorillas are herbivores, they have a capacity for language, koko the gorilla learned sign language and actually created her own signs.
I said ‘generally’. Plus gorillas aren’t sentient.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Grey Templar wrote: Delvarus Centurion wrote: Grey Templar wrote: Techpriestsupport wrote:I think the tau are mostly vegan so a kroot navigator in a tau ship would need special dining arrangements.
Not exactly. The Tau are omnivores, but they have only eaten meat relatively recently. Which actually makes them extremely odd, since Herbivores generally lack the ability to support brains sophisticated enough to be sentient. Simply not enough protein or energy dense calories to support the energy demands of a large brain.
Not true, gorillas are herbivores, they have a capacity for language, koko the gorilla learned sign language and actually created her own signs.
I said ‘generally’. Plus gorillas aren’t sentient.
Yes, they are. They are capable of feeling, perceiving, and experiencing subjectively and pretty much every scientific study into them has proven such. They aren't, to our acknowledgement, sapient, which is what you're confusing for sentience.
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Post by: BaconCatBug
Gorrilas are sentient, in the same way that dogs are sentient or termites are sentient. The word I think you were looking for is sapient, and all evidence suggests Gorillas, Chimpanzees, Elephants, Dolphins and Crows are sapient along with humans.
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Post by: pm713
What's the difference between sapience and sentience? They get mixed up so often...
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Post by: BaconCatBug
pm713 wrote:What's the difference between sapience and sentience? They get mixed up so often...
Sentient is to be able to perceive or feel things. Sapience is the ability of an organism or entity to act with judgment.
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Post by: Grey Templar
I do not buy that anything besides humans are sapient.
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Post by: Voss
I'm not terribly convinced many humans are.
What tests we have don't indicate conclusively that other animals are sapient, but the tests are inherently biased to our conceptions of intellect and social order.
It's a blurry line, frankly. As someone who lives on a farm, with multiple animals of different species, there are obvious differences in cognition, and fairly complex behaviors. Our dogs keep a rough sense of time even when in the basement (where we keep the exercise equipment), and have some sense of object permanence (better than small human children).
The cattle are worse about the latter, but definitely recognize patterns of behavior and individual people. The cows will line up in specific groups of 6 or 7 to go into the barn to get fed in the morning. That can be seen as habit, but they also seem to grasp that they get fed faster if they divide in half, rather than all try to pile in the gate that opens first.
The cats largely don't care unless they want something.
But any, short version is, a binary sentient/sapient divide is probably modeling cognition incorrectly.
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Post by: Delvarus Centurion
macaque monkeys have been proven to act sapient through classical behavioural fairness tests, the results are hilarious to watch, youtube it. Your religion might make you want to be skeptical about the results but you can't argue with them.
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Post by: Techpriestsupport
As to the kroot serving as tau navigators, I think the kroot are extremely pragmatic and practical. They have less obsession with honor than survival and take the practical approach to solving problems. The tau pretty much saved the kroot from the Orks and the kroot view the tau as necessary allies as the kroot are unlikely able to stand on their own without the tau. They would navigate for the tau and seek to gain what extra benefits they could
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