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sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 12:26:15


Post by: spaceelf


There were a bunch of comments in the forge world thread regarding the price of the sanguinis model. It has been a while since there was a price thread, so I thought that I would start one.

On average GWs prices for minis have been increasing faster than inflation. When the individual price for a mini is combined with the number of minis needed to play 40k or AOS, their prices are outrageous.

It is constructive to contrast this with a comparison to other hobbies such as the price of a video game or that of a radio controlled car. Prices for console games have been relatively stagnate since the release of Super Mario 2 in the 1980s. Moreover, I can now play high quality games on my cellphone very inexpensively. RC cars have risen in price since the 80s. However, they have not risen nearly as much as miniatures. You can obtain a rereleased Tamiya kit for less that it would have cost if you in 1985 if you factor in inflation. Both the cars and the minis require precision cast parts, and in that sense are comparable.

The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

The solution to high miniature pricing is competition. Both video games and Rc cars have several major manufacturers. If you want lower prices, then it is imperative to have multiple major companies produce models. What we have seen is that competitors of GW are not doing well. Privateer Press, and Wyrd seem to be on a downturn. Battlefront is a shadow of what they used to be.

I put my money where my mouth is. I am a proud owner of kits from many games/manufacturers, including dakkas own maelstorm's edge.

Some people say, that you cannot find games using non gw minis. My response is if that is the case then you are not playing with the right people. If other people do not want to play the other games, or if they do not want to let you use proxy minis, or lend you their minis, then they are part of the problem.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 12:34:02


Post by: tneva82


 spaceelf wrote:

The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.


For troops etc mass units sure. For characters alas we then end up paying for the plastic tax.

Right tool for the right job and right material for the right purpose.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 12:39:42


Post by: Skinnereal


GW's prices have not changed all that much, if you look at certain kits.
Repackaging from 10-body for a 5-body kit, the price was more than half after re-release.
New kits are priced at new prices, so that looks to be where the price rises are.

I'd play any 40k game against a fully non-GW model army, especially if done well.

As for the price to field a full game, just play at lower points levels.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 12:59:25


Post by: wallygator


If you're a casual player and don't need every codex option and/or have a decent amount of models to switch your army lists, the cost drops alot.
I have everything i want for orks, and almost everything for nids so the only things i bought in last 3 years are paints, brushes, new codexes/rulebooks, and a Thousand sons killteam (2 boxes of models).

If you like assembling and painting, and count it as hobbytime, one box of troops will give you alot of hours amusement, and keeps on counting amusement time as the years you play continue.
With videogames of 50€, i'm usually finished in a week or 3 and only the best games are played a second time.

so "money spend-time wasted" for gw minis, the balance is good i think


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 13:14:02


Post by: Tyranid Horde


I'd rather spend my money on something I'll have constant use of and GW gives me that something. I think video games are a poor comparison considering a lot of AAA titles have very little in the way of lengthy campaigns and it's especially bad when they're digital downloads. As wallygator said, I'm never going to play a game more than once (unless it's Skyrim, but that's how long you have to go back to find a game that is replayable in my opinion).


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 13:58:43


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I wouldn’t worry about it.

They’re not obliged to match their prices to inflation. And being a luxury item, they’re similarly under no obligation to offer the best price possible.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 14:33:44


Post by: Excommunicatus


Eh.

Many of us are reliant on GW stores to have a place to game and thus don't have any other option but to use GW minis.

It's all very well making baseless assertions and strawman arguments, but relying on them is foolhardy.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 15:39:12


Post by: Argive


Two words: Ebay, Patience.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 16:20:07


Post by: Captain Brown


 Argive wrote:
Two words: Ebay, Patience.


Has worked for me.

Cheers,

CB


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 16:21:57


Post by: fresus


 wallygator wrote:
If you like assembling and painting, and count it as hobbytime, one box of troops will give you alot of hours amusement, and keeps on counting amusement time as the years you play continue.
With videogames of 50€, i'm usually finished in a week or 3 and only the best games are played a second time.

That's my personal situation.
I usually buy a box, paint it, then move to the next one. I spend ~2.5h per infantry model between modeling and painting, so the €/h rate isn't bad at all when compared to most things. Even clampack plastic characters have a better €/h rate than watching movies or playing tennis (renting a court isn't cheap here).
My hobby is also a good part of my social life. Spending time at the shop with Warhammer friends is free, whereas going to a bar/restaurant with my other groups of friends involve spending money. That's another part of the value to me.

Of course the value would be better if GW stuff was cheaper, but my overall point is that for me, spending time hobbying/playing instead of doing other activities doesn't mean I have to spend more money.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 17:34:49


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


I'd disagree on the price of console games as although there was a fall from cartridge to CD based machines and then period of stagnation this has ended,

as too many of them now depend on you buying DLC, bonus boxes, map packs etc

but GW is expensive, but it's always been expensive compared to other figure makers even before Warhammer 40K was a thing


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 21:01:48


Post by: leopard


having worked as someone who puts commercial prices together I can tell you this, the "cost" of production is discussed only briefly, in order to ensure a given margin as a floor is maintained - otherwise the "price" is basically what you can get away with.

GQ stuff is expensive, its also mass produced, I've bought boxes of 60 models of a perfectly acceptable quality in 28mm, for much more minority interest games for £20, and they will still be making money.

hobbies are a "nice to have", companies can and will charge what they want.

you can find cheaper hobbies and more expensive ones, it doesn't matter, GW charge what people are prepared to pay, why wouldn't they?


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 21:24:53


Post by: John Prins


GW is expensive compared to most other minis on the market. GW is not expensive compared to other hobbies. Try owning a boat or a motorcycle and see what the initial outlay can be.

That's why GW continues to sell models, because building an army isn't a huge money sink for the middle class, and there are a lot of upper middle class that can consider it trivial expenditure (buy for their kids without blinking).

And like people said, scrounging secondhand stuff is way easier than it was years ago.



sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 21:33:10


Post by: An Actual Englishman


My Super Nintendo system cost £100 with 2 games and 2 controllers when I was a child. My friends Xbox costs around £400 with no games and one controller.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 22:41:38


Post by: cweg127


As others have mentioned, GW prices don't seem outrageous when you consider the $/per hour value you get. Now I've spent way more than I care to admit since getting into the hobby, but when I figure how much I am spending for the return on investment it's actually a pretty great value. I can easily drop $30+ in a bar in a couple of hours. And all this is before we even consider things like resale value. GW mini's hold their value quite well, especially if they have decent paint on them. Compared to say the video games you use in your example, I have an original XBox that I purchased for $300 that isn't worth a penny now, whereas if I gave up 40k tomorrow I feel fairly confident I would make back most of my money - especially because I have payed less than market value for most of my mini's.

But when I look at other miniature manufacturers it doesn't seem like GW prices are terribly far off. There are definitely some exceptions, but overall it looks like many other manufactures are using a similar pricing models. That said, when other manufactures are significantly less expensive, the quality is usually pretty far off GW quality so you end up getting what you pay for in the end.

At the end of the day though you aren't jest paying for the mini itself but a slew of other things as well that aren't reflected in the materials or even the design of a specific model. GW invests heavily in rules/game development and provides a level of ongoing customer support that many other companies do not match. Just look at all of the FAQs they pump out. All of those writers and play testers need to be payed somehow, and as a publicly traded company, the investors need to be payed out as well. All of that is reflected in the cost you pay at the counter.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/01 23:57:43


Post by: Glasdir


prices have definitely gone up a bit but that's because the quality of the minis has increased an awful lot, the pricing of the kits is directly influenced by a few factors such as how many will sell (in the case of unique units) and how many man hours have gone into producing the models. Better quality models take longer to produce and so cost more.
As nearly everyone has mentioned GW isn't that bad compared to other hobbies especially if you compare how much you pay for how much fun you get out of it. Compare it to Lego for example, a similar hobby, which costs an awful lot more than Warhammer to get an equivalent kind of kit. £20-30 gets you a ten man unit, usually with lots of nice spares. £20-30 of Lego gets you barely anything and once you're done building it, that's it, you put it on a shelf and there's nothing more to do with it unless you fall between the ages of 5-12. Building and painting that £20-30 warhammer kit is going to take far longer than it did to build the Lego kit and you get to play games with the minis afterwards.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 00:12:06


Post by: spaceelf


Well, it is of course to each his own. If you are happy with the value of GWs prices then continue to pay the price.

One can arguably get the same value from other miniature manufacturers.

To give you an idea of the ridiculous prices that GW charges, consider smaller companies such as Khurasan miniatures. They sell 9 28mm METAL models for less than $13. Historicals such as those by the Perry Brothers are also inexpensive with a MSRP of approximately $1 per hard plastic figure. (For those who do not know, the Perry brothers sculpted for GW for many years.)

GW is simply gouging consumers.

TNEVA commented on characters. These need not be separate sprews. Last time I looked, most commanders in the military were only distinguished by an insignia. Even if they are different, they could be included on the sprew, and extra commander bits (super commander arms, etc.) could be added. The miracle of plastic.

Although there are expensive video games these days, such as ones that have DLC, many are very inexpensive and some are free. Even if you consider console prices, the nintendo switch is not considerably more expensive than the super nintendo was when it was released.

In terms of video games not having replay value, it depends on the game. People are going back to playing classic games, etc.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 00:13:10


Post by: Ghaz


 spaceelf wrote:
The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

Compare the price of some greenstuff and some sculpting tools with a computer and the required software for that digital sculpt.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 00:19:29


Post by: Bookwrack


 Ghaz wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:
The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

Compare the price of some greenstuff and some sculpting tools with a computer and the required software for that digital sculpt.

Reminds me of the whining, 'why are game prices so high! You don't even have a physical disc! Why isn't it freeeeeeeeee~?"

Not to mention the silly argument about replaying games - I've got some minis about as old as my original NES, and the $40-$60 I was paying for cartridges back in the day. Wanna guess how many decades it's been since I've had that console. Meanwhile, in another thirty years, those minis will still be just as good.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 00:26:15


Post by: spaceelf


 Ghaz wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:
The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

Compare the price of some greenstuff and some sculpting tools with a computer and the required software for that digital sculpt.


It is true that greenstuff and tools are less expensive than a computer. However, when you are a large business the computer is much much cheaper. You can edit files, and presumably eliminate the need to create the cast by hand. All of this saves many man hours which are costly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bookwrack wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:
The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

Compare the price of some greenstuff and some sculpting tools with a computer and the required software for that digital sculpt.

Reminds me of the whining, 'why are game prices so high! You don't even have a physical disc! Why isn't it freeeeeeeeee~?"

Not to mention the silly argument about replaying games - I've got some minis about as old as my original NES, and the $40-$60 I was paying for cartridges back in the day. Wanna guess how many decades it's been since I've had that console. Meanwhile, in another thirty years, those minis will still be just as good.


I am not suggesting that minis should be free. I am stating that GWs prices are much higher than other miniature companies, for what I consider to be a comparable product.

In terms of you not playing your old nes games, there are lots of people who do play their old nes games. There are also people who do not play with old minis. It just depends on your perspective and values. For you, GWs prices may be just fine.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 00:53:35


Post by: Bookwrack


 spaceelf wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:
The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

Compare the price of some greenstuff and some sculpting tools with a computer and the required software for that digital sculpt.


It is true that greenstuff and tools are less expensive than a computer. However, when you are a large business the computer is much much cheaper. You can edit files, and presumably eliminate the need to create the cast by hand. All of this saves many man hours which are costly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Bookwrack wrote:
 Ghaz wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:
The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

Compare the price of some greenstuff and some sculpting tools with a computer and the required software for that digital sculpt.

Reminds me of the whining, 'why are game prices so high! You don't even have a physical disc! Why isn't it freeeeeeeeee~?"

Not to mention the silly argument about replaying games - I've got some minis about as old as my original NES, and the $40-$60 I was paying for cartridges back in the day. Wanna guess how many decades it's been since I've had that console. Meanwhile, in another thirty years, those minis will still be just as good.


I am not suggesting that minis should be free. I am stating that GWs prices are much higher than other miniature companies, for what I consider to be a comparable product.

In terms of you not playing your old nes games, there are lots of people who do play their old nes games. There are also people who do not play with old minis. It just depends on your perspective and values.


What on Earth are you nattering on about? How many video game systems still work after thirty year? Pay attention.

And you keep claiming that GW prices are higher than other companies, but have yet to make any serious arguments to back it up.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 02:08:10


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Are you kidding?

You need evidence that other companies are more affordable on a per mini basis? Outside of Kingdom Death, I can't even think of another company that charges what GW charges for a clampack. And GW's big kits are terrible value compared to similar plastic kits from other companies.

GW has a great aesthetic and some of the best miniature quality around, but I'll take Mantic's GCPS over Cadians for a fourth of the price any day.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 10:36:25


Post by: Glasdir


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are you kidding?

You need evidence that other companies are more affordable on a per mini basis? Outside of Kingdom Death, I can't even think of another company that charges what GW charges for a clampack. And GW's big kits are terrible value compared to similar plastic kits from other companies.

GW has a great aesthetic and some of the best miniature quality around, but I'll take Mantic's GCPS over Cadians for a fourth of the price any day.

You are aware that the other companies are cheaper because they don’t use such high quality CAD software or don’t even use it at all in cases like the perry brothers? Industry grade CAD software packages are extremely expensive, GW’s software will cost them even more because they are paying for exclusive rights to it. I know this because I’ve asked them about what they use at previous warhammer fests, they’re not actually allowed to tell you what it is because of the exclusive licensing agreement. An awful lot of the price they charge will go towards maintaining that licence, which will be costinging them probably between £5k-10k a year.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 11:38:42


Post by: wallygator


 spaceelf wrote:

To give you an idea of the ridiculous prices that GW charges, consider smaller companies such as Khurasan miniatures. They sell 9 28mm METAL models for less than $13.

I would buy a gw box at any time over this box for exact this reason: METAL.
I absolute hate it how fine parts of metal models bend, how easy they break when they fall and how easy the paint comes of when you touch them too many times. And most of the new gw models look fantastic IMO.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 12:30:15


Post by: AndrewGPaul


If the paint rubs off metal models, that's your fault, not the material it's made of. You've not primed it properly.

As to prices, Warmachine stuff is just as pricy, if not more. A heavy warjack is ~10% more than a dreadnought, for example, Protectorate Temple Flameguard cost 30% more than a unit of Primaris Intercessors. Likewise with Infinity; there basic line infantgry models are more than twice the cost (per model) of Space Marines, although individual models don't cost as much as character models from GW.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 12:33:12


Post by: spaceelf


 wallygator wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:

To give you an idea of the ridiculous prices that GW charges, consider smaller companies such as Khurasan miniatures. They sell 9 28mm METAL models for less than $13.

I would buy a gw box at any time over this box for exact this reason: METAL.
I absolute hate it how fine parts of metal models bend, how easy they break when they fall and how easy the paint comes of when you touch them too many times. And most of the new gw models look fantastic IMO.


Metal is not for everyone. However, many companies produce plastic models that are cheaper than GW. I mentioned Perry Borhters in the sentence after the one that you quoted.



sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 12:56:01


Post by: fresus


Design and aesthetics are personal, but in terms of how crisps the details are, I haven't seen any mini come close to GW's newer kits. So comparing Perry Brothers' plastics with GW doesn't make much sense.
Of course if you look at the old plastic kits from GW, the quality isn't better than the competition, but the price is still very high. There's definitely a wide spread in terms of value in what GW offers.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 13:00:08


Post by: wallygator


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the paint rubs off metal models, that's your fault, not the material it's made of. You've not primed it properly.



ah, that I didn't know. I just used the same primer i use on my plastic models. Could be Vallejo black primer or GW chaos black, not sure.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 14:20:11


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Once the primer's on, the later coats are just sticking to the primer; it doesn't matter what's underneath it. If the primer's not sticking to the underlying model, then something's not working properly.

Metal models are more prone to chipping, but I think that's because they're heavier and any impacts are harder than between plastic models.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 14:38:18


Post by: Krinsath


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Once the primer's on, the later coats are just sticking to the primer; it doesn't matter what's underneath it. If the primer's not sticking to the underlying model, then something's not working properly.

Metal models are more prone to chipping, but I think that's because they're heavier and any impacts are harder than between plastic models.


And metal is rather famous for having no give on impacts while plastic can distribute the force much better. Mold release cleaning is also a thing that people sometimes overlook since injection plastic doesn't require it.

On the actual topic of the thread, I do want to echo Orlando's point on video games: they've kept that price point for the "basic" version but if you get into the "true cost" of AAA games, you're actually looking at hundreds of dollars for DLCs and content that "used to be" in the game on release. Anymore you have the trend of publishers releasing a basic framework as a finished game and then showing the "roadmap" of content to actually make it the intended experience. You bring up that there are free video games, but those aren't in the class as the "brand-name" publishers and the titles that are offered "for free" are rarely enjoyable for long without spending money.

With GW, you're paying for the IP; plain and simple. Tons of people produce miniatures, but very few produce 40k Space Marines and only one manages to keep their product readily available across the globe. There are certainly companies producing objectively better miniatures, but none that produce the IP which is a huge component of GW's approach. It's the same reason that those expensive video games that rake in billions tend to be around established franchises; the brand is far more important than the product.

If the IP doesn't matter to you and you just want to play games, then GW certainly becomes a more arguable cost-benefit situation and depends on your local gaming scene. Warhammer is ubiquitous meaning the money spent on those game systems is more likely to return gaming hours across a wider variety of scenarios. Doesn't mean it's the only or best option, but that's up to the individual to decide. As the saying goes "the value of a good is what the market is willing to pay" and clearly despite what can be viewed as very high costs, people are indeed willing to pay that.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 14:39:15


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


 Glasdir wrote:
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Are you kidding?

You need evidence that other companies are more affordable on a per mini basis? Outside of Kingdom Death, I can't even think of another company that charges what GW charges for a clampack. And GW's big kits are terrible value compared to similar plastic kits from other companies.

GW has a great aesthetic and some of the best miniature quality around, but I'll take Mantic's GCPS over Cadians for a fourth of the price any day.

You are aware that the other companies are cheaper because they don’t use such high quality CAD software or don’t even use it at all in cases like the perry brothers? Industry grade CAD software packages are extremely expensive, GW’s software will cost them even more because they are paying for exclusive rights to it. I know this because I’ve asked them about what they use at previous warhammer fests, they’re not actually allowed to tell you what it is because of the exclusive licensing agreement. An awful lot of the price they charge will go towards maintaining that licence, which will be costinging them probably between £5k-10k a year.


Man, I don't care about the costs on their end. I care that I can get tons of great plastic minis for a third of what GW charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@AndrewGPaul, when was the last time you heard anyone cheering for Warmachine?



fresus wrote:
Design and aesthetics are personal, but in terms of how crisps the details are, I haven't seen any mini come close to GW's newer kits. So comparing Perry Brothers' plastics with GW doesn't make much sense.
Of course if you look at the old plastic kits from GW, the quality isn't better than the competition, but the price is still very high. There's definitely a wide spread in terms of value in what GW offers.


Dreamforge, Kingdom Death, Malifaux, Gates of Antares, Mantic's GCPS and a few other kits, Frostgrave. They all have great casting, even if their aesthetics aren't necessarily as great.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 14:45:26


Post by: DeathKorp_Rider


GW prices aren't that high IMO, but FW is ridiculous. They are basically extorting players to buy crappy resin models that break incredibly easily. The only reason we continue to buy from them is that they hold onto some of the coolest looking models.

I'm going to have to give up on a DKoK, it's too expensive to make an army out of them when they are $70+ for a squad of infantry. So I'll just go with metal Steel Legion which is half the price and sturdier.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 14:54:55


Post by: stroller


GW is expensive. Always has been. Most likely always will be. It's a "want" purchase, not a "need" purchase, so they can charge whatever brings the best return. I'd love them to cut prices: I'd buy more, but they might make less profit. What shareholder would ever support that?

Other hobbies by comparison? £50 for a new video game? Add on the DLC, the console itself, controllers and the rest of the gizmos.... or cycling.... my bikes are worth around £12K, and they are by no means top of the range.... and some of the cellphones for the "free" games are upwards of £1K themselves....

There will always be more expensive and cheaper hobbies, and there will always be more or less expensive ways to wargame. Options of WHICH models you "need" (given the game itself isn't a need) are pretty much only limited to GW models in a GW store, which doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

I doubt commercial CAD is cheap. I also suspect that good CAD operators can command a not insignificant salary. From my own VERY limited early CAD "no problem" is an oversimplification: times may well have moved on.

As for market competition, ONE of the reasons I still play GW is ease of access. I can walk into a store (3 in easy drive, and WHW 40 minutes away on a good run) and pick up a game pretty easily. I preferred Starship Troopers, and AT-43. Locally, neither sold, and there was zero local interest. I played a handful of games of SST (with one friend and my son). AT-43 is still in its box.

Yes it's too expensive for what it is, but so are most leisure pursuits. £3.85 for a Costa coffee anyone when you can have a Greggs flat white for £2.10, or £2 if you have the bacon roll too!?

The solution to high miniature pricing is competition. Both video games and Rc cars have several major manufacturers. If you want lower prices, then it is imperative to have multiple major companies produce models. What we have seen is that competitors of GW are not doing well. Privateer Press, and Wyrd seem to be on a downturn. Battlefront is a shadow of what they used to be.

I put my money where my mouth is. I am a proud owner of kits from many games/manufacturers, including dakkas own maelstorm's edge.

Some people say, that you cannot find games using non gw minis. My response is if that is the case then you are not playing with the right people. If other people do not want to play the other games, or if they do not want to let you use proxy minis, or lend you their minis, then they are part of the problem.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 15:30:13


Post by: MechaEmperor7000


I've been on hiatus and just stalking the forums for the past year but this thread made me feel like i should speak up again.

So there are a number of fallacies floating around whenever the discussion of price comes up.

First one is always "price per hour". You are not paying for a service here, so this is very subjective depending on the person. If you want to go to the extreme end, I can buy 10 lego bricks costing 5c a piece (not manufactured cost, actual cost for the consumer). If i get any amount of enjoyment out of them, it instantly blows any comparison out of the water (and this can simply be using them as targets while also flinging the same bricks at each other). That is to say nothing of discount lego sets or even cheaper construction sets.

Second one is "units sold", especially in application to stuff like unit commanders. Every company knows that people generally buys several of a product, even if they're only "suppose" to have one. Some products naturally sell better than others, and this doesn't just apply to line troopers. If they really did care about the startup cost of every clampack, they would have just made them multi-part plastic kits can can be interchangable for any of the "one time" models (good example is the current Chaos Terminator Lord, which can be built up as a sorceror lord, or any of the older WHFB dual-pack leaders like the Elven Prince, Empire Noble, Orc Warboss, and so forth). That would save on shelf space and manufacturing, but it would be less profitable.

Third is the general "but high quality!" thing. This would be true if GW kept a consistent pricing throughout it's range. The current CSM box is 70 CAD compared to the Thousand Sons 60CAD box. Or the normal tactical marine box (50CAD) vs a box of Blood Angel tacticals (55 CAD). Or just any of the clampacks. The truth of the matter is the pricing is the result of price creep; if you took the clampacks (which are released more often than boxed sets) and lined them up by release date, you'll see that they've slowly inched up from the 16 dollars they use to cost. There have been reductions in the past, but only because they realized a combined set would cause sticker shock, especially in something like baseline Stormcast Eternal troops (they use to cost 60 CAD for 5, now something like 70 CAD for 10, probably because asking 120 for a squad of 10 basic troopers would scare people away from the hobby entirely).

That said. some things I will also point out:

GW models have gone up in detail as of late, as well as components. This is good and bad; there is an absolute slew of parts for the Assault Marine set, but I managed to assemble two whole squads by just sourcing an extra pair of legs. Essentially, instead of giving me the option for ground marines or flying marines, they made me buy both and only let me use one set at any one time. so this is very much a YMMV moment, as some people like the massive amount of extras. However GW's sprues definitely have far more stuff on them now; compare the chaos Helbrute to the original boxnaut; the boxnaut is basically a twig with some pieces on it, while the helbrute has oodles of parts everywhere. Same with something like the Monolith VS the Obelisk; one is basically just enough parts to assemble the thing, while the other comes with almost enough pieces to assemble a second. Again, very much YMMV moment here, but there is some justification for the higher prices.

One more thing I should note for US and Canadians; GW does their US and Canadian prices based off of their British prices, but their British prices has the tax calculated in, but ours does not. This essentially means we're paying the british tax AND then our own domestic taxes. Some other companies also do this, other companies don't and have different set prices for north american markets, so it's up to you who you wanna blame for this (and I don't think we'll get much sympathy either considering AU and NZ are paying even more ludicrous prices). But this fact alone renders most conversion rates useless.

The long short of all this is GW charges whatever prices it likes because there are people willing to pay them, and there is really no justification for it other than "yes we can" and "they want to make money". And until there can be actual mainstream challenges to it's monopoly, it's gonna continue this way unfortunately. Which is why I swore if they ever reduced an army's cost by 50%, I would start a new army of said army. And I have done this once before; when Imperial Knights: renegade was first released, my friend pointed out that the army is now technically "halved" in it's price (the other type of knights didn't exist at the time). My response was to go out and buy two of them (I was gonna get 3, but my friend restrained me by taking away all my cards and money for a week).

If GW does it again, I will do so again with no regrets (although the criteria has to be ALL models within the faction being reduced by 50%; a battleforce does not count but an army box with all unit choices do. The imperial knights was unique in that at the time the army only had 2 choices, discounting FW). If they went back to charging 30-40 CAD for a box of 10 basic troops, 40-50 for a tank (and not just transports), I will also start a new army (of a minimum 1500 point size, so it's not like I'm just going getting a start collecting box).

In the meantime, I think I have more than enough GW models to get me through till at least christmas. And I will be dealhunting for any new minis; I'll pay the price I feel comfortable with.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 16:42:25


Post by: DanceOfSlaanesh


I think mostly the single figures are overpriced. But bundles, boxed games, squads, vehicles are alright.

The addiction of stacking unopened and unused boxes on your shelfs, that's expensive.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/02 17:24:16


Post by: Elbows


Games Workshop is in a position almost no other game company is in. They can, at least currently, charge whatever they want and people will be buying it. Between marketing to "young dumb kids with too much money" (i.e. 16-25 year olds who often are less financially responsible and are less likely to have families, etc.) and having a strong fan base from 20-30 years of gaming for those who are now of means, they have the market covered.

Add to that the fact that they've been capitalizing more on the tournament/meta scene where people are genuinely spending money to compete...it's just gravy for GW.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 01:48:42


Post by: Grot 6


 spaceelf wrote:
There were a bunch of comments in the forge world thread regarding the price of the sanguinis model. It has been a while since there was a price thread, so I thought that I would start one.

On average GWs prices for minis have been increasing faster than inflation. When the individual price for a mini is combined with the number of minis needed to play 40k or AOS, their prices are outrageous.

It is constructive to contrast this with a comparison to other hobbies such as the price of a video game or that of a radio controlled car. Prices for console games have been relatively stagnate since the release of Super Mario 2 in the 1980s. Moreover, I can now play high quality games on my cellphone very inexpensively. RC cars have risen in price since the 80s. However, they have not risen nearly as much as miniatures. You can obtain a rereleased Tamiya kit for less that it would have cost if you in 1985 if you factor in inflation. Both the cars and the minis require precision cast parts, and in that sense are comparable.

The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

The solution to high miniature pricing is competition. Both video games and Rc cars have several major manufacturers. If you want lower prices, then it is imperative to have multiple major companies produce models. What we have seen is that competitors of GW are not doing well. Privateer Press, and Wyrd seem to be on a downturn. Battlefront is a shadow of what they used to be.

I put my money where my mouth is. I am a proud owner of kits from many games/manufacturers, including dakkas own maelstorm's edge.

Some people say, that you cannot find games using non gw minis. My response is if that is the case then you are not playing with the right people. If other people do not want to play the other games, or if they do not want to let you use proxy minis, or lend you their minis, then they are part of the problem.




The word you are looking for is Sophism- a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 02:24:07


Post by: drbored


If the prices are too high for you, don't buy the product.

It's as simple as that. There's no need to go into the 'what ifs' or the 'whys' or try to pretend like we know more about their business practices and the materials or manufacturing industries than we really do.

The bottom line is that a lot of this comes down to people complaining about not being able to afford a hobby. Sucks, but, you gotta look after your bills and finances first and plastic luxury army men last.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 07:03:04


Post by: tneva82


 wallygator wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
If the paint rubs off metal models, that's your fault, not the material it's made of. You've not primed it properly.



ah, that I didn't know. I just used the same primer i use on my plastic models. Could be Vallejo black primer or GW chaos black, not sure.


If it's GW chaos black...well gw sprays aren't even primers. There's difference between colour spray and primer. One is designed to work as primer, one is not.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 12:05:56


Post by: spaceelf


 Grot 6 wrote:
 spaceelf wrote:
There were a bunch of comments in the forge world thread regarding the price of the sanguinis model. It has been a while since there was a price thread, so I thought that I would start one.

On average GWs prices for minis have been increasing faster than inflation. When the individual price for a mini is combined with the number of minis needed to play 40k or AOS, their prices are outrageous.

It is constructive to contrast this with a comparison to other hobbies such as the price of a video game or that of a radio controlled car. Prices for console games have been relatively stagnate since the release of Super Mario 2 in the 1980s. Moreover, I can now play high quality games on my cellphone very inexpensively. RC cars have risen in price since the 80s. However, they have not risen nearly as much as miniatures. You can obtain a rereleased Tamiya kit for less that it would have cost if you in 1985 if you factor in inflation. Both the cars and the minis require precision cast parts, and in that sense are comparable.

The cost of producing minis should be lower than in the distant past now that minis are digitally sculpted. Need a Space Marine head, just copy and paste. Want to edit a weapon, no problem.

The solution to high miniature pricing is competition. Both video games and Rc cars have several major manufacturers. If you want lower prices, then it is imperative to have multiple major companies produce models. What we have seen is that competitors of GW are not doing well. Privateer Press, and Wyrd seem to be on a downturn. Battlefront is a shadow of what they used to be.

I put my money where my mouth is. I am a proud owner of kits from many games/manufacturers, including dakkas own maelstorm's edge.

Some people say, that you cannot find games using non gw minis. My response is if that is the case then you are not playing with the right people. If other people do not want to play the other games, or if they do not want to let you use proxy minis, or lend you their minis, then they are part of the problem.




The word you are looking for is Sophism- a fallacious argument, especially one used deliberately to deceive.


You may criticise my statements, but do you agree that competition is beneficial to the miniature industry? Is that just sophistry?


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 16:36:30


Post by: NAVARRO


I think that GW for the last years has changed considerably, for the best, in therms of giving fans what they want… as such competitors are struggling a lot. IMO.

Individual characters clampacks are expensive but starter deals etc have good prices. In the end Its about what you really want. I just like good quality shiny new minis in general.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 22:05:22


Post by: Elbows


drbored wrote:
If the prices are too high for you, don't buy the product.

It's as simple as that. There's no need to go into the 'what ifs' or the 'whys' or try to pretend like we know more about their business practices and the materials or manufacturing industries than we really do.

The bottom line is that a lot of this comes down to people complaining about not being able to afford a hobby. Sucks, but, you gotta look after your bills and finances first and plastic luxury army men last.


This is a response which indicates you haven't read most of what people have written. By making statements like "not being able to afford the hobby", you're missing the point. I support any company pricing their products as they wish. For people like me it's not about being able to afford the hobby. It's cheap as hell compared to my other hobbies, but the products themselves don't warrant the cost. Any working adult could easily afford GW products, it might be a financial issue for younger buyers or people who are on a real budget....but let's not kid ourselves. Compared to bills, etc. it's still relatively cheap.

But that doesn't mean I find enough value in their product to purchase it at their prices. Just because you can afford something (without going broke, hungry or getting into financial trouble) doesn't mean that you buy it without question. To me a single plastic monopose figure will never be worth $35. I've paid $12-15 for old out-of-production metal figures because I found value in those. I'm fortunate that I've built my two main 40K armies on the cheap (finding good deals and building off rescued older minis). The money I could spend on GW prices is spent on other hobbies where I find more value.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 22:14:28


Post by: _SeeD_


Do you all think 3d printing will ruin Games Workshop eventually?


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 22:31:08


Post by: infinite_array


Miniature Wargaming as a hobby itself is going to have a reckoning with 3d printing eventually. Printers are going to continue to become cheaper even as they get better resolution and more people produce content.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/03 22:42:00


Post by: DanceOfSlaanesh


Games workshop is benefiting of the new technologies also.
Their production and quality keeps increasing thanks to 3d design and printing.
I feel like they will always keep one step ahead.
I think they can coexist for a long time. With people printing conversion parts and such.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/04 08:24:49


Post by: AndrewGPaul


The quality of 3D prints isn't the issue. It's the time. How long does it take to print, for example, ten Space Marines? I can drive to GW, buy the models, come home and have them assembled in two hours. If it takes longer than that to print them, I'll probably keep buying them.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/04 09:42:01


Post by: John Prins


 _SeeD_ wrote:
Do you all think 3d printing will ruin Games Workshop eventually?


Nope. They'll simply license their renders to customers for a fee as an alternate revenue stream. This will be marginally cheaper for customers - look at how GW prices their PDF products for a price comparison - and probably more profitable for GW, as it removes part of their warehousing, shipping and retail requirements. 3D printing can't replace injection molding on a cost or volume basis, however, and it's a creative hobby where people actually LIKE assembling and painting miniatures, so that part of the hobby isn't going away.



sky high prices @ 2019/04/04 10:21:30


Post by: Skinnereal


 John Prins wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
Do you all think 3d printing will ruin Games Workshop eventually?


Nope. They'll simply license their renders to customers for a fee as an alternate revenue stream. This will be marginally cheaper for customers - look at how GW prices their PDF products for a price comparison - and probably more profitable for GW, as it removes part of their warehousing, shipping and retail requirements. 3D printing can't replace injection molding on a cost or volume basis, however, and it's a creative hobby where people actually LIKE assembling and painting miniatures, so that part of the hobby isn't going away.
The amount of time it took them to put their books out digitally, and the stranglehold they keep on their IP, I doubt they will go anywhere near licensing for users to use.
Printing at a store for collection later on, that might happen. They get to keep control of the files, and get people into the store.
At-home printing though, GW will never allow that.

Fan-made STL files for home printing, that happens already. They look to come out quite well, and if you mix a few printed models in with official ones, you'll probably get away with it.
Home-grade printers (£300-£1000 or so) are better at scenery and such. Infantry-type models can be good, but vehicles and models with larger detail do better.

By the time 3D printing has ruined GW, they'll have had a lot of other things to worry about first.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/04 10:51:15


Post by: Ragnar69


I always read that other companies have way cheaper miniatures but whenever I try to find them I get disappointed.
If I like them (i.e. Victoria), they are not really cheaper, with postage often even more expensive then GW (sometimes even if you compare it to RRP without discount). Others I just find butt ugly and many are simply not of any use for me.

I mean it's fine and dandy that the Perrys have cheap and good looking plastic historicals. But honestly I wouldn't even take them for free as I have no Idea what to do with them.

And GW has way higher overhead costs than the smaller manufacturers. They have their own big warehouses on different continents, way more office staff and buildings to be maintained and staffed. I also bet that the WD doesn't pay for itself without any ads.

Do I wish they would be cheaper? Sure. Will I pay 30 € for a character? No, maybe with 20% off but even then only rarely. Could I buy a nice car with the money I spent on GW in the last 25 years? Surely.

But could I have cheaper hobbies? I don't really think so. I'm always getting big eyes when I hear what my friends and colleagues spend (RC car racing, music making, fishing, bicycles, car tuning, going out and even just running). And none of them still have use for purchases made 25 years ago like I do....

I guess it also depends on how you are doing your hobby. I know tournament guys that get complete new armies at least twice a year to chase the meta and even have them professionally painted. Together with the travel costs to at least 1 or 2 tournamnets a month, they really spend big.

But thats the same for every hobby. A gamer could buy a PS4 and use it for 6 or more years, or he could buy a 2000 Euro PC every 2 years.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/04 14:51:21


Post by: the_scotsman


I think for me the interesting thing about the miniature game market is the huge differential between the "consumer satisfaction index" - the amount of enjoyment people get out of miniatures is HEAVILY dependent on what they choose to do with it, which will affect the price people are happy to pay.

For myself, when I purchase a box of miniatures, I assemble them, paint them for at least probably 5 hours per box, and I play 40k (though not always the same faction) once per week.

I know plenty of people who don't paint, and play once a month.

I'm pretty happy in terms of the consumer index. I get more leisure time/enjoyment from a box of miniatures than I do from a AAA video game title, sports equipment, or going out for drinks with my friends, pretty much the only "for fun" activity I regularly do that's more value for the money is watching TV/movies with subscription services. The consumer happiness index is pretty great for the miniatures to me.

For the books...yeah, different story. I don't get nearly the value i like out of the rules books. So, i tend not to buy them as much, or I grumble when I do, and I definitely use any workarounds I can when possible - I modified my Index for deathwatch, Harlequins and Admech rather than buying the codex because so few unit rules changed, and just bought the datacards for the stratagems.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/04 20:33:49


Post by: John Prins


 Skinnereal wrote:
 John Prins wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
Do you all think 3d printing will ruin Games Workshop eventually?


Nope. They'll simply license their renders to customers for a fee as an alternate revenue stream.
The amount of time it took them to put their books out digitally, and the stranglehold they keep on their IP, I doubt they will go anywhere near licensing for users to use.
Printing at a store for collection later on, that might happen. They get to keep control of the files, and get people into the store.
At-home printing though, GW will never allow that.


They may not get a choice if home printing gets fast/cheap/easy enough. Someone with a 3D laser scanner can simply dupe their sprues and release it into the wilds of the internet. It really depends on the technology. For example, some laser printer brands may make accommodation for limited use printing of licensed materials.

I agree that keeping the printing in-house would be the easiest for GW to control, and allow each store to restock independently (add a print-on demand system and they no longer need warehouses). Order something and pick it up later the same day, regardless of stock levels.




sky high prices @ 2019/04/05 16:32:08


Post by: meatybtz


 John Prins wrote:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 John Prins wrote:
 _SeeD_ wrote:
Do you all think 3d printing will ruin Games Workshop eventually?


Nope. They'll simply license their renders to customers for a fee as an alternate revenue stream.
The amount of time it took them to put their books out digitally, and the stranglehold they keep on their IP, I doubt they will go anywhere near licensing for users to use.
Printing at a store for collection later on, that might happen. They get to keep control of the files, and get people into the store.
At-home printing though, GW will never allow that.


They may not get a choice if home printing gets fast/cheap/easy enough. Someone with a 3D laser scanner can simply dupe their sprues and release it into the wilds of the internet. It really depends on the technology. For example, some laser printer brands may make accommodation for limited use printing of licensed materials.

I agree that keeping the printing in-house would be the easiest for GW to control, and allow each store to restock independently (add a print-on demand system and they no longer need warehouses). Order something and pick it up later the same day, regardless of stock levels.




Please, someone invent a 3D scanner that doesn't require expert clean up to get something useable.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/05 19:22:13


Post by: nareik


I think the problem with most 3d scanners is they aren't 3d.

They simply map surfaces, they should scan through the surface to be true 3d, more akin to mri or sonic imaging scans. That would make 3d scans better.

Feel free to steal my idea without guilt .


sky high prices @ 2019/04/05 21:00:16


Post by: AndrewGPaul


You only need something like an MRI scanner if the internal structure of whatever you're scanning is important. In the case of miniatures, there is no internal structure - all you need is the external shape.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 07:01:58


Post by: nareik


Not true, a surface scanner is less good at picking up overhangs and is more prone to glitching the surface details.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 14:30:43


Post by: spaceelf


Maybe in the future 3d printing will come down in price. At this point, casting is far less expensive.

I am always interested in hearing about inexpensive minis. It seems that in the past year or two there has been a slowdown in the creation of new inexpensive minis. If there are any that have not been mentioned in the thread, please add them.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 15:37:20


Post by: Turnip Jedi


It really comes down to value rather actual cost

The miniatures I buy for other games are either only slightly cheaper or on a par with GW, but I don't really mind, obviously cheap would be nicer, as I enjoy those games, not something I can say about 40k which currently has no idea what its meant to be other than a IP to shift models


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 18:36:05


Post by: odinsgrandson


Oddly enough, some of my favorite minis actually cost MORE than the equivalent in Games Workshop (I'm a fan of nice resin, and Kingdom Death plastic).


GW used to have a lot of issues with the pricing on their books (at the worst, you'd have to spend $180 just to get the rules for the game/force/subforce that you want to play). That has improved.

One of GW's biggest problems is that the prices look terrible when compared to themselves. Troops are relatively cheap, while elites cost at least double that, and characters are usually 5x or 6x the price of troops.

I mean, you can get one character for $25, or 10 troopers for $50, something doesn't feel like it is lining up right.

Other companies also have price hikes on minis sold singly, but it is never quite so big a jump as with GW.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 18:56:38


Post by: Sunno


If you think GW's prices are high, you should look at PP's.

Thankfully the 2nd hand market is a buyers market. Even for NIB.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 19:43:53


Post by: TwilightSparkles


With 3D printing people usually don't figure in the time, effort, material cost and power that printing uses. It'll never become mainstream because it's too niche. It's proponents fail to realise this.

It's like how the niche competitive scene thinks it's the be all and end all of GW gaming and websites fall over themselves to tell readers how rubbish most new units and releases are. Same thing with PP, they listened and believed their niche within a niche that wanted CID. Don't notice GW dumping stock at cost price to customers, but PP ended up doing that , along with retailer after retailer dropping them.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/12 22:23:19


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Sunno wrote:
If you think GW's prices are high, you should look at PP's.

Thankfully the 2nd hand market is a buyers market. Even for NIB.


quoted for truth and lots of PP output is terribad, the last box I bought (plastic reeves/wolves) was only about 60% usuable and bar the odd new Caster I've given up buying anything from them


sky high prices @ 2019/04/13 11:07:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


FW raised all their prices, some as high as 160%, overnight for everyone who doesn't live in the UK. If I buy something from FW I still have to pay shipping, I still have to pay my sales tax, and it's still coming from the same location in England it always came from, yet it now costs more because...

...

...

...

... anyone?

Sunno wrote:
If you think GW's prices are high, you should look at PP's.
Last time I checked Warmahordes didn't require the model count that AoS/40k does, making that a poor comparison.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/13 11:27:48


Post by: Wayniac


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
FW raised all their prices, some as high as 160%, overnight for everyone who doesn't live in the UK. If I buy something from FW I still have to pay shipping, I still have to pay my sales tax, and it's still coming from the same location in England it always came from, yet it now costs more because...

...

...

...

... anyone?

Sunno wrote:
If you think GW's prices are high, you should look at PP's.
Last time I checked Warmahordes didn't require the model count that AoS/40k does, making that a poor comparison.
It is a poor comparison yet the same type of horsegak that always gets trotted out in price comparisons, or worse people trying to say individual models cost the same so GW isn't that expensive.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/13 12:11:33


Post by: StygianBeach


 H.B.M.C. wrote:


Sunno wrote:
If you think GW's prices are high, you should look at PP's.
Last time I checked Warmahordes didn't require the model count that AoS/40k does, making that a poor comparison.


Yeah, since GW stopped Fantasy Battles and made start collecting boxes I have not had a problem with their prices.

Even though I miss Fantasy, the getting started price was too high.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/13 14:17:46


Post by: Skinnereal


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
FW raised all their prices, some as high as 160%, overnight for everyone who doesn't live in the UK. If I buy something from FW I still have to pay shipping, I still have to pay my sales tax, and it's still coming from the same location in England it always came from, yet it now costs more because...

...

...

...

... anyone?
Variations on exchange rates over the past couple of years?
Costs here are going up, like minimum wage and fuel.
I haven't seen GW/FW's reasons, but I expect they'll list something like that.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/13 14:18:00


Post by: ValentineGames


I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.
Yes it costs less than restoring antique cars or collecting the severed heads of your enemies.

But a miniature should be compared to a miniature.

So is for example a leman russ expensive?
Leman russ £31.
Tamiya 1/35th King Tiger: £30-35
Tamiya 1/48th King Tiger: £25-30
Warlord 1/56th king Tiger: £20-25

Is a squad of guardsmen expensive? (Using brood brothers as the guard box is pointless)
Brood brothers 10+2 £25 (£2.08 per model maybe 50 pieces per sprue)
Perry WWII infantry 40-45 models £20 (46p approx per model. Maybe 100 pieces per sprue)
Warlord infantry boxes 25-40 models £20-30 (77p approx per model maybe 100 pieces per sprue)

But it is moot. As GW could charge £100 per model and £500 per vehicle and the fanatical fanbase will STILL defend it as affordable

And a WWII miniature game can easily reach GW levels of figures.

Heck I could compare Napoleonics.
Perry are about the same as the WWII boxes.
And you have victrix at 50-60 models per box for £25
And warlord at 24-30 at £15-20 if I recall


sky high prices @ 2019/04/14 06:18:35


Post by: Peregrine


ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.


And I've always said that you're absolutely wrong.

A fast food hamburger costs $0.99.

A fast food cheeseburger costs $1.09.

Who gives a if the cheese adds 10% value or not, both options are so cheap that I'm not even looking at the price before choosing which one I want. Same thing with miniatures. No matter what miniatures I'm buying it's still so cheap that it doesn't make any difference what I'm getting. And at the end of the day that's what decides whether or not something is expensive.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/14 13:39:42


Post by: Turnip Jedi


 Skinnereal wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
FW raised all their prices, some as high as 160%, overnight for everyone who doesn't live in the UK. If I buy something from FW I still have to pay shipping, I still have to pay my sales tax, and it's still coming from the same location in England it always came from, yet it now costs more because...

...

...

...

... anyone?
Variations on exchange rates over the past couple of years?
Costs here are going up, like minimum wage and fuel.
I haven't seen GW/FW's reasons, but I expect they'll list something like that.


you forget 'cos you addicts will pay it regardless so we might as well chance it'


sky high prices @ 2019/04/14 13:43:40


Post by: ValentineGames


 Peregrine wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.


And I've always said that you're absolutely wrong.

A fast food hamburger costs $0.99.

A fast food cheeseburger costs $1.09.

Who gives a if the cheese adds 10% value or not, both options are so cheap that I'm not even looking at the price before choosing which one I want. Same thing with miniatures. No matter what miniatures I'm buying it's still so cheap that it doesn't make any difference what I'm getting. And at the end of the day that's what decides whether or not something is expensive.

So...what you're saying is...you want GW to give you slices of wax cheese?...
That's all I fathom from what you say.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/14 16:58:00


Post by: Peregrine


ValentineGames wrote:
So...what you're saying is...you want GW to give you slices of wax cheese?...
That's all I fathom from what you say.


What I'm saying is that all miniatures games are so cheap (at least from the point of view of someone with a decent job) that any price variation between them is irrelevant, none of them can be considered "expensive".


sky high prices @ 2019/04/14 22:54:45


Post by: BuFFo


If a $30 figure is expensive according to Bob, which only Bob understands his finances, the figure is expensive.

If a $30 figure is cheap according to Juanita, which only Juanita understands her finances, the figure is cheap.

Same figure, same price, different values based on an individuals objective assessment between their values ( finances ) and the figures price.

Warhammer ( wargaming ) used to be expensive for me about 10 years ago.... Today, they are cheap for me. Such is life


sky high prices @ 2019/04/15 04:47:12


Post by: silent25


For all the complaints about the cost of entry, GW has made it significantly easier now to get into playing in their universe.

40K is too expensive? Play Kill Team or Necromunda.
AoS is too expensive? Play Underworlds or Warcry (when released).
Forgeworld too expensive? Play Adeptus Titanicus.

GW has made lite versions of their games for people to play who can't afford to fully play their big two games. Yes the prices for figures are high, but then the argument of cost comparison to games like WMH, KD, and similar games is valid. Most the WMH players in my area dropped WMH for Kill Team. Not only did they prefer the rules, they said it was a cheaper game to play.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/15 06:20:20


Post by: Apple fox


I think this is quite a complicated thing. I think GW is quite expensive, but it’s not across the board.
It’s a bit random at times.
Shadow sun is $61 which for what you get is extreme.
But the fire blade is only $21
darkstrider being $28

So a big difference from similar sized minis, and I not sure the the difference accounts for much.
But it’s also with there books and other things. Getting into killteam recently, I have found it anything but cheep.
Both books where over $70 since i wanted enhanced edition, and the started box I think was over priced. I got it thinking it would have cards I could write on, since they are not for sale here. But have only used about 5 of the minis from it, needing other boxes anyway. The extra skills and such in the box was not worth the extra cost, but I needed it anyway it felt.
Compared to other games of similar size that is not in anyway cheaper.

They have a lot of costs that all add up and I think it’s a issue, necromunda with forge world prices are a joke.

When it all adds up, I feel the game just is not good enough for how much it cost.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/15 08:18:12


Post by: ValentineGames


 Peregrine wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
So...what you're saying is...you want GW to give you slices of wax cheese?...
That's all I fathom from what you say.


What I'm saying is that all miniatures games are so cheap (at least from the point of view of someone with a decent job) that any price variation between them is irrelevant, none of them can be considered "expensive".

So cheap for you = cheap for everyone.
Got it...snob


sky high prices @ 2019/04/15 16:36:48


Post by: odinsgrandson


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Sunno wrote:
If you think GW's prices are high, you should look at PP's.

Thankfully the 2nd hand market is a buyers market. Even for NIB.


quoted for truth and lots of PP output is terribad, the last box I bought (plastic reeves/wolves) was only about 60% usuable and bar the odd new Caster I've given up buying anything from them



Their resin miniatures remain far superior to Games Workshop's. I've been playing with the new Monsterpocalypse resins, and that game is beautiful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Skinnereal wrote:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
FW raised all their prices, some as high as 160%, overnight for everyone who doesn't live in the UK. If I buy something from FW I still have to pay shipping, I still have to pay my sales tax, and it's still coming from the same location in England it always came from, yet it now costs more because...

...

...

...

... anyone?
Variations on exchange rates over the past couple of years?
Costs here are going up, like minimum wage and fuel.
I haven't seen GW/FW's reasons, but I expect they'll list something like that.


The prices increase faster than inflation generally. Exchange rate doesn't make a whole lot of sense with Forge World (since everyone buys in British pounds).

I suspect that GW is worried about their profits dropping due to Brexit or one of a million other factors, so they're increasing prices in hopes that it doesn't happen.

Forge World prices are always a little hard to justify, considering that they still charge quite a bit more than other companies for similar resin miniatures (sometimes twice as much for a similarly sized large minis- this amounts to a few hundred dollars difference).


sky high prices @ 2019/04/16 03:09:11


Post by: Azreal13




The prices increase faster than inflation generally. Exchange rate doesn't make a whole lot of sense with Forge World (since everyone buys in British pounds).


Not any more, now people pay in their home currency. Guess what happened to the relative prices when they introduced that policy?


sky high prices @ 2019/04/16 12:03:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Finally got to say my piece to GW about the stupid FW regional pricing bull gak.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/16 13:16:32


Post by: Dropbear Victim


TBH, Ive always wondered if Forge World's regional pricing is even legal in Australia since they have no Australian overheads.

Like for example from https://www.business.gov.au/products-and-services/fair-trading/pricing-regulations

Multiple pricing

Multiple pricing is when a good is advertised with more than one displayed price. Typically, this is done in error. Under consumer law, a business must either sell the goods at the lower price, or withdraw the good from sale until the price is corrected.


Ive always wondered if regional price gouging comes under this.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/16 17:31:22


Post by: Eihnlazer


 Peregrine wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
So...what you're saying is...you want GW to give you slices of wax cheese?...
That's all I fathom from what you say.


What I'm saying is that all miniatures games are so cheap (at least from the point of view of someone with a decent job) that any price variation between them is irrelevant, none of them can be considered "expensive".





I have a decent job and no it isn't cheap. It's priced as a luxery good, which means it can be whatever they want, so I wont say its overpriced, but it certainly isn't cheap. It's almost impossible to convince friends of new people to start playing the game where Im at because of the prices. Why would they pay $400 to get a decent army when they could buy 7 AAA title video games for the same price?

Yes in theory you get better value from 40k, since you can always re-sell the models for full price to someone, but the amount of work and cost it takes up-front to get into the game is far larger than most other forms of entertainment.

Humans tend to shy away from work and expense when trying new hobbies.


The start collecting box's are priced decently, but they tend to have models that aren't all that good and do not give you the ability to get what you actually want. They should really price their entire range based off of those prices and put actual starter armies (like a functional Battalion at 1000pts) in the start collecting box's.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 00:35:44


Post by: Eldarain


Aside from folks starting out the only difference cheaper prices would make would be an increase in the tonnage of our piles of shame.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 01:20:35


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I, for one, would love to have a more massive pile of shame. I'd have to sneak it past my wife like Andy Dufresne sneaking dirt past the warden, but I would find it worthwhile.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 09:28:05


Post by: Tyranid Horde


ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.
Yes it costs less than restoring antique cars or collecting the severed heads of your enemies.

But a miniature should be compared to a miniature.

So is for example a leman russ expensive?
Leman russ £31.
Tamiya 1/35th King Tiger: £30-35
Tamiya 1/48th King Tiger: £25-30
Warlord 1/56th king Tiger: £20-25

Is a squad of guardsmen expensive? (Using brood brothers as the guard box is pointless)
Brood brothers 10+2 £25 (£2.08 per model maybe 50 pieces per sprue)
Perry WWII infantry 40-45 models £20 (46p approx per model. Maybe 100 pieces per sprue)
Warlord infantry boxes 25-40 models £20-30 (77p approx per model maybe 100 pieces per sprue)

But it is moot. As GW could charge £100 per model and £500 per vehicle and the fanatical fanbase will STILL defend it as affordable

And a WWII miniature game can easily reach GW levels of figures.

Heck I could compare Napoleonics.
Perry are about the same as the WWII boxes.
And you have victrix at 50-60 models per box for £25
And warlord at 24-30 at £15-20 if I recall


Referring to your Tamiya vs GW tanks comment, the difference in quality is gigantic between scale models and wargame minis. As someone who owns the 1/48 Tiger, it comes with a huge number of pieces in comparison to a Leman Russ with better tooling and a die-cast chassis which results in a better model overall.

By all means, compare infantry to infantry for wargames, but comparing GW's tanks to scale model tanks doesn't work.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 16:37:35


Post by: AndrewGPaul


A more accurate scale model, yes, but "better"? Depends on what you want it for, surely. After all, GW's models are designed to be used in games and repeatedly handled. model kits are generally designed to be built and then left well alone.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 17:09:00


Post by: Azreal13


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
After all, GW's models are designed to be used in games and repeatedly handled.


Are they?
Spoiler:


Really?

Spoiler:


Are you sure?

Spoiler:


Those might not even be the most egregious examples. But were some of the first that sprung to mind.

Assuming equal competence of construction, I'd say a scale tank (especially one with die cast pieces) is equally robust to many gaming minis, and not just GW.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 20:14:17


Post by: ValentineGames


 Tyranid Horde wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.
Yes it costs less than restoring antique cars or collecting the severed heads of your enemies.

But a miniature should be compared to a miniature.

So is for example a leman russ expensive?
Leman russ £31.
Tamiya 1/35th King Tiger: £30-35
Tamiya 1/48th King Tiger: £25-30
Warlord 1/56th king Tiger: £20-25

Is a squad of guardsmen expensive? (Using brood brothers as the guard box is pointless)
Brood brothers 10+2 £25 (£2.08 per model maybe 50 pieces per sprue)
Perry WWII infantry 40-45 models £20 (46p approx per model. Maybe 100 pieces per sprue)
Warlord infantry boxes 25-40 models £20-30 (77p approx per model maybe 100 pieces per sprue)

But it is moot. As GW could charge £100 per model and £500 per vehicle and the fanatical fanbase will STILL defend it as affordable

And a WWII miniature game can easily reach GW levels of figures.

Heck I could compare Napoleonics.
Perry are about the same as the WWII boxes.
And you have victrix at 50-60 models per box for £25
And warlord at 24-30 at £15-20 if I recall


Referring to your Tamiya vs GW tanks comment, the difference in quality is gigantic between scale models and wargame minis. As someone who owns the 1/48 Tiger, it comes with a huge number of pieces in comparison to a Leman Russ with better tooling and a die-cast chassis which results in a better model overall.

By all means, compare infantry to infantry for wargames, but comparing GW's tanks to scale model tanks doesn't work.

1/48th is a common wargaming scale. It is a fair comparison.
Otherwise I'll just compare Rubicon.
The point us the same.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 20:45:41


Post by: Saturmorn Carvilli


ValentineGames wrote:

1/48th is a common wargaming scale. It is a fair comparison.
Otherwise I'll just compare Rubicon.
The point us the same.


I have used a couple of 1/48 Tamiya models for wargaming before. They are much nicer sculpts than anything I would expect a wargaming model to be and blow any Citadel/Forgeworld vehicle model I have seen out of the water. They take more work to build and have parts that I would consider too fragile or otherwise fiddly for miniatures gaming though. So I can agree with that arguement somewhat, though; I knew several players that stuck with the Tamiya stuff since they felt 1:48 scale was more accurate.

I think Rubicon Models is an apt comparison. I think even Rubicon's worst models (I believe it was their first Panzer IV or Sherman in which they actually went back and re-did it) makes the Land Raider, Rhino or Leman Russ Tank look like 1980s G.I. Joe toys. After their first year, Rubicon hit a good compromise of detail/ease of building vs. the ruggedness of the model for wargaming purposes. I think what helped them was have several historical vehicle experts weigh in on their designs before production to both ensure accuracy and help pick and choose which details to include and which could be dropped.

To cut the argument off at the pass, if a tiny model manufacturer (Rubicon) in a tiny and saturated market (28mm WWII vehicles) can actually go back and rework a kit, the leader in the industry probably has the same ability. I can grin and bear the price for most infantry models in the Citadel line, but I can bring myself to spend $60 for a Chaos Predator when for just about half that I could get a WWII Panther Tank or Tiger I Tank of much nicer quality. Any Rhino based model seems like they are worth $40 tops to me. I know I have spent less on the two I have.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 22:19:47


Post by: Inquisitor Gideon


 Azreal13 wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
After all, GW's models are designed to be used in games and repeatedly handled.


Are they?
Spoiler:


Really?

Spoiler:


Are you sure?

Spoiler:


Those might not even be the most egregious examples. But were some of the first that sprung to mind.

Assuming equal competence of construction, I'd say a scale tank (especially one with die cast pieces) is equally robust to many gaming minis, and not just GW.


Having used both Nagash and the Eidolon in regular games i can attest that they are perfectly fine for gaming. And if built properly, both are solid as a rock.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 23:14:12


Post by: Azreal13


Sorta missed the point there chap.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/17 23:21:34


Post by: Rob Lee


Just going to add my £0.02 to this...

I find the comparison of prices of model kit tanks, to GW's tank models, rather spurious, because there are model kits of tanks out there, quite readily available, not garage resin one-offs, that cost about as much as GW's tanks, a Takom 1/35 King Tiger (which is not much bigger than a Land Raider) for example. And the price of newly tooled model kits in general seems to be rising significantly, manufacturers seem to have this trend at the moment of producing newly tooled big huge models, for example a 1/32 B-24 Liberator, or a 1/24 Hellcat, at a very huge price, whilst the usually more affordable smaller scales are being ignored. For seemingly no other reason than "'cos we can".

Having said that I have no doubt that GW's products are over priced, but I am also in no doubt that they are not the only one's in this side of the modelling hobby that are over priced. Kickstarters seem to be the fashion of the day, and some of them are horrendously expensive to get anything meaningful/useful out of...

I started with the GW hobby back in the 90s, I amassed over 100 Dark Angels infantry models, some bikes, a few Mk1 Rhino, a Mk2 Predator, and a Mk1 Land Raider. I also acquired the entirety of 2nd edition 40k, including all codices available at the time. All of which at the time felt like an achievement to me, however with the dawning of the internet age, and seeing what many people seem to own these days it seems rather insignificant.

I know however that I could not amass that many models or a complete edition of 40k 8th today on the same budget (even adjusted for inflation) as I had back then. I find myself today struggling to stay in the hobby in terms of buying anything new, and I wouldn't dream of starting a new army having written up many lists over the past year and gone to various places to cost them up.

I feel that I've been consistently, gradually, and increasingly, pushed out of the GW hobby since the 90s, not only because they've chased the pockets of the kids with rich parents, and the collectors who only buy to show off their manhoods, but also by those more affluent gamers who continue to support GW claiming their models are cheap to buy!

If the GW hobby wasn't largely the purview of the very comfortably well off middle class of the UK already, it has increasingly become so over the past 20 years.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/18 03:46:03


Post by: Argive


Rob Lee wrote:

If the GW hobby wasn't largely the purview of the very comfortably well off middle class of the UK already, it has increasingly become so over the past 20 years.


Well it is. So is skiing and eating expensive cheese and drinking snobbish wine.. It is a luxary item. There are always risk boards.

My family wass P poor when I was a kid. E-bay was not really a thing so I could not afford to warhammer bar the odd brand new model someone was selling extremely cheaply at school(because stolen or wanting cigarette/drug money? )

Now days ebay is a thing. If you can hustle a bit, you can easily fund you miniatures from flipping and selling miniatures as well as finding absolute bargains! If you pay full GW prices then yeah its expensive!! But why would you ? Just be patient and hunt some bargains and it becomes very affordable. Might have to get some dettol for stripping. Wish I had these options when I was growing up.

E.g. People research ebay get a kits or two from GW or/online retailer website at a discount, and make £££ profit by re-selling the kits individualy/in bits. It takes some time and bit of ebaying but then you can buy some new shiny at not detriment to your finances. Yeah it will take a bit of work but for me its just another part of the hobby and I enjoy the old flip and hustle.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/18 13:14:40


Post by: Krinsath


Additionally when discussing model kits it's also skewing the results to compare a copyrighted item to one that cannot be copyrighted; WW2 vehicles and their appearances are historical fact and thus a company cannot claim copyright to the Sherman tank in any scale. At best they can copyright their particular kit design, which while not nothing isn't really much given that there's innumerable ways to lay out a sprue. This is WHY that market is so crowded and additionally why the prices are lower as competition can exist and that's usually to the benefit of the consumer.

When you look at models that are part of a unique IP and thus protected by copyright, you see the prices jump up. Warlord Games sells their Bolt Action models for somewhere between £1 a model and £2. Go over to their Gates of Antares range which is the same general scale but copyrighted and the price goes to between £2 and £4 a model typically. While GW certainly can push the envelope when you look at the new Chaos Terminators (£7 a model), their basic troops do seem to fall into a similar range (new CSM: £3.50 a model). Not having played GoA I can't say if the overall cost of the army is much lower due to a lower typical model count, but on a "how many things do I get" basis they're comparable.

So, as mentioned previously, you're paying for the IP. If you just want to push toy soldiers and tanks around, historical models will offer much better currency-to-product conversion rates because you're not paying the IP tax. If you want to use the Adeptus Astartes to fight Abbadon the Despoiler, then there's going to be the higher rate for dealing with the (effective) monopoly on that IP. Given that the intent of granting companies said monopolies and their higher return rates is to theoretically encourage more people to create more things, it's kind of the way the system is set up to work.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/18 15:48:50


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Azreal13 wrote:
Sorta missed the point there chap.


By comparison to the sort of details I see on model kits - traks assembled from dozens of individual links, aerials, grab rails, machineguns and spotlights, brass-etch spaced armour etc - those kits are indeed pretty resilient. I mean, how many early Rhino models do you see with intact grab rails and antenna?

Even the 1:72 Airfix kits I've built had very flimsy propellers, radio aerial masts and odd bits sticking up with contact points much, much smaller than anything on those three characters you posted. The nearest comparison would be the antennae and probes on a Land Speeder,and they're three or four time thicker than anything on the model kits I've built.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/18 17:50:33


Post by: Azreal13


I'm sorry but I don't buy it. I've transported many large, resin minis to and from my local club and played games with them with no damage (at least nothing so traumatic that I can recall.)

If I can do that with heavy resin models with delicate pieces (Mierce's Krull as point of reference) then I don't accept the issue with any plastic scale model.

Not to mention that "more expensive but less detail!" smacks of marketing double speak rather than any sort of cogent argument.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/18 18:55:37


Post by: Blastaar


GW has always been expensive- things are merely getting worse.

And no, it wouldn't matter if I ran a Fortune 500 company; $60 for ten basic infantry, $30 characters and so on would still be ripoffs.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/18 20:55:11


Post by: Skinnereal


The new chaos SM characters are only £15 each.
It looks as though they might be listening to the complaints.
Though, the command squad is >£50, so maybe not.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/19 07:40:04


Post by: Slipspace


 Peregrine wrote:
ValentineGames wrote:
I've always said comparing GW to other hobbies is an empty pointless comparison.


And I've always said that you're absolutely wrong.

A fast food hamburger costs $0.99.

A fast food cheeseburger costs $1.09.

Who gives a if the cheese adds 10% value or not, both options are so cheap that I'm not even looking at the price before choosing which one I want. Same thing with miniatures. No matter what miniatures I'm buying it's still so cheap that it doesn't make any difference what I'm getting. And at the end of the day that's what decides whether or not something is expensive.


And that's clearly a personal judgement for each individual. So while to you they may not be expensive, to others they are. That's not even taking into account the difference between value and cost. I think the most expensive single model GW sells in the UK is about £100. I'm quite capable of spending £100 in one go on a model if I feel like it - I won't end up unable to pay my bills and mortgage. But if I don't think that £100 represents good value I'm not going to spend my money on it. £22.50 for a single character model, for example, is ridiculous, because I don't think it represents good value, not because I can't physically afford it. That's before you start looking at the total cost of an army, which is where value and cost collide for a lot of people to form a perfect storm of resentment.

To use your burger analogy, GW are selling $10 burgers at $45 each. I can afford that but Id feel like a chump paying so much more than something's actually worth.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/19 12:45:47


Post by: spaceelf


The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/19 15:00:36


Post by: the_scotsman


 spaceelf wrote:
The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


The time investment for me is and has always been more impactful than the monetary investment. I've currently spent about 1/3 of my most recent painting commission on an expansion to my genestealer cultists, which was with the 20% discount I get from my seller 180$ and bought me around 650 points. But I now have 8 bikers, 2 quads and 12 large infantry models I need to get painted up, which is going to take me at least a month and a half to get through. If I were buying up neophytes that would be 40$ for 10 models, which each take me about 2 hours to paint. 2$ per hour of entertainment is most certainly a better exchange rate than I tend to get for a AAA video game title - I don't know what AAA video games you're buying, but on the very best ones I usually only get about 20 hours out of them, and they're 60$. Even assuming I never play the game (which I do) I get more out of painting miniatures than I do out of playing video games.


sky high prices @ 2019/04/19 16:12:06


Post by: Apple fox


 spaceelf wrote:
The discussion of IP and price is very much on point. Miniatures of historical troops that do not have IP that is owned by the model maker are usually much lower in price than miniatures that have company owned IP. The ones that do not have IP must be priced competatively, or they could be undercut by another manufacturer.

Now some people will say the IP is worth the extra cost. I think that many companies overcharge for the IP. I have seen tons of tournament players with unpainted models. They have no attachment to minis/IP. They would use pieces of paper, if tournaments would let them. Then there are the vast numbers of casual players who start out. Some never build more than 750 points and then quit. Others get influenced by the tournament crowd and build up more points. I think the influence of tournament players is extreme and helps keep the price up.

The overall cost for a full army in many games is very high. If you like an IP, and get a few models because of it, that may be fine. You have some nice things to model and paint, and can get your dose of IP. But when you have to get a whole metric ton of them. I know people who love the IP and are into the hobby who get burnt out hobbying as there are just so many dudes to build and paint.


Why i do not think the prices are good, i do think that the IP GW has is worth it. As people are buying even at the high price. I often think, that with the game you are paying for the IP as that is what keeps people playing. I have had a lot of players say to me that they do not care about how bad the game is, they just like 40k.

Honestly i think if it was not for the IP i would not being playing 40k, its almost amazing how well it can keep players even if they constantly crash, burn and say they will never play again. Some always come back.
Its also a pain when the internet tells new players that everywhere plays 40k, they get there parents to buy them some. Turn up to play and get told, no one plays 40k :( At least kill team was good enough that some of those models can be used.


sky high prices @ 2019/05/07 21:05:13


Post by: aka_mythos


I think its silly to try to justify a luxury item by any metric other than what that money and what that object mean to you. You can go through mental gymnastics to justify it to yourself or to someone else, but really its forgone conclusion at that point and you're really just trying to make yourself feel better about your choice. People talk about the hours of entertainment they'll get out of a GW model kit as if that volume for the cost is only a good thing. What if for the same amount of money you could get a product that gives you the same amount of enjoyment, but you only need 10 minutes for that pay off? How about the zero sum opportunity cost that says beyond a certain point every extra hour you spend on hobbying costs you something, because you could either resume productivity or do more of those minor household chores that save you money or just better yourself.

I think GW's prices are pretty ridiculous because I've worked in a manufacturing industry producing similar enough parts in a role where I know what all this should cost GW to produce. At the volumes and quality they produce their prices are excessive. They're already more profitable than most manufacturers when they sell at their wholesale price. GW's wholesale price is more than most companies retail price, relative to costs.

Trying to justify the prices by pointing to discounts is silly. Discounts from GW are rather meaningless. Remember the same year GW announced they'd start to allow online retailers to sell their products in the US for upto 20% off, the average product price climbed almost 20%. People go nuts for the big boxed games for how much they save, but the way manufacturing works, that isn't a volume discount its a unit price. When GW sells "$320" worth of minis in a $160 box, what they're really doing is profitably selling you minis that cost them less than $100 at $320 the rest of the time.

People point to all these other things and say look at the value. I'd turn that around, ask yourself "What price is too high?" -ask yourself how many more times over the actual cost to make a thing you're willing to pay before you feel cheated? -Can you eve feel cheated by any price?

Don't get me wrong companies should feel free to price things however they want and turn whatever profit they can. Its about consumers knowing enough to know they're getting screwed, even if they're perfectly willing to accept it.


sky high prices @ 2019/05/19 14:31:53


Post by: NightReaver


Yeah, sorry, but when a box of 10 CSM cost $60, that's gonna chase people away. You can't even say it's new scuplts that go up in price, I play IG and yet those same old crappy guard scuplts get bumped up. Shoot, they don't even give you all the special weapons that the rules say the squad can use. Want to use meltas or plasmas? Go spend more money.

I've bought my fair share of Lemans and a couple of baneblades, but I've proxied all my guards because there's no way I'm paying $23+ for 10 old models that lack half the special weapon options.