Who would win in a one on one fight with no outside interference?

Does Perturabo have Forgebreaker?

If Perturabo has the forgebreaker then the fight would probably go to him. AFAIK neither were particularly renowned for their skills as duelists, so the deciding factor would come down to durability and wargear. Perty has the advantage in both. The rules for both in 30k supports this hypothesis as well.

Big thunder hammer and souped up terminator armor > oversized chainsword and fancy power armor

 Coolyo294 wrote:
If Perturabo has the forgebreaker then the fight would probably go to him. AFAIK neither were particularly renowned for their skills as duelists, so the deciding factor would come down to durability and wargear. Perty has the advantage in both. The rules for both in 30k supports this hypothesis as well.

Big thunder hammer and souped up terminator armor > oversized chainsword and fancy power armor

I see, but what makes forgebreaker a special weapon? From what I know it's just a named power hammer that Perturabo occasionally uses.

Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Dorn was far more known for his tactics and strategy over his battle prowess. He would be in simpler terms an extremely high leveled space marine.

Far more speed, durability, and intelligence, but still using the same type of gear and combat skills as a marine.


Perterabo was more of a monster, and fought nothing like a standard marine. Weilding his scythe and plasma pistol he tended to have a bit more potency to his attacks and his fighting style was far off from standard.




Granted Dorn was far more likely of the two to know the others secrets and tricks, being the pragmatic distrusting man that he was.

The other thing to think about is that a scythe itself is not exactly the best thing to bring to a duel. Its the type of weapon more suited to mowing down a multitude of weaker enemies than one on one combat.


Really hard to be sure how it would turn out.

I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Peturabo beat the stuffing out of deamon primarch angron, dorn has no chance here

BrianDavion wrote:
I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Remember when Abaddon created that 'Escape Room in SPAAAAAACE!' for Dorn?

You know the one; a big spaceship, apparently full of Iron Warriors (why are these guys always being used as mooks by black legion)? The only part of Dorn to escape was his hand? I have a sneaking suspicion Perty may actually have Dorn chalked up as his Primarch kill.... Either that or Dorn was killed by daemons, cultists or line astartes, which is even worse.

Dorn is the superior primarch, but the inferior warrior. In a straight up fight I think Pert takes it rather handily.

Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Remember when Abaddon created that 'Escape Room in SPAAAAAACE!' for Dorn?

You know the one; a big spaceship, apparently full of Iron Warriors (why are these guys always being used as mooks by black legion)? The only part of Dorn to escape was his hand? I have a sneaking suspicion Perty may actually have Dorn chalked up as his Primarch kill.... Either that or Dorn was killed by daemons, cultists or line astartes, which is even worse.

I wasn't aware it was confirmed what Legion took him down. and IIRC Cruz had a vision where he saw Dorn's death and it sounds like he got dragged down by sheer weight of numbers

 JamesY wrote:
Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

I thought Sanguinius was the best and that's his whole thing. He's the best and that's why it's so sad he died, Chaos wanted him instead of Horus and he points out the giant hypocrisy of the Imperium.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

nareik wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I voted for Dorn, well a lot of people make good arguements for Perturabo, at the end of the day I'm gonna chulk one up to Dorn due to his greater experiance. Dorn has fought and killed another Primarch before (Alpharius) Perty does not have that distinction.

Remember when Abaddon created that 'Escape Room in SPAAAAAACE!' for Dorn?

You know the one; a big spaceship, apparently full of Iron Warriors (why are these guys always being used as mooks by black legion)? The only part of Dorn to escape was his hand? I have a sneaking suspicion Perty may actually have Dorn chalked up as his Primarch kill.... Either that or Dorn was killed by daemons, cultists or line astartes, which is even worse.

I wasn't aware it was confirmed what Legion took him down. and IIRC Cruz had a vision where he saw Dorn's death and it sounds like he got dragged down by sheer weight of numbers

That seems really unlikely. Horus was almost killed by Russ and then fought his way through a horde of Space Wolves mainly made of their best fighters.

 JamesY wrote:
Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

I think Fulgrim meant "best of us" as in most moral and civic minded. Out of all of the primarchs, Perturabo was the least inclined to be a "warlord" and all he really wanted was to be a scientist/architect/inventor. I also think that Perturabo's sheer intelligence and mental aptitude is beyond all of his brothers, and is only matched/exceeded slightly by Magnus.

In a strategy fight, Perturabo wins. The only time that the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists fought openly with their respective primarchs commanding their forces was at the Iron Cage, and the Iron Warriors nearly wiped out the Fists.

In a physical fight, neither primarch was especially noted for their skill as a duelist as was stated already. However, it has been shown numerous times in the lore that Perturabo can hold his own in a fight, even against Angron. Perturabo wins here too.

So overall, Perturabo wins.

w1zard wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Perturabo. As Fulgrim says in Angel Exteriminatus, Pert is probably the best of the primarchs, but as always, he gets overlooked.

I think Fulgrim meant "best of us" as in most moral and civic minded. Out of all of the primarchs, Perturabo was the least inclined to be a "warlord" and all he really wanted was to be a scientist/architect/inventor. I also think that Perturabo's sheer intelligence and mental aptitude is beyond all of his brothers, and is only matched/exceeded slightly by Magnus.

In a strategy fight, Perturabo wins. The only time that the Iron Warriors and the Imperial Fists fought openly with their respective primarchs commanding their forces was at the Iron Cage, and the Iron Warriors nearly wiped out the Fists.

In a physical fight, neither primarch was especially noted for their skill as a duelist as was stated already. However, it has been shown numerous times in the lore that Perturabo can hold his own in a fight, even against Angron. Perturabo wins here too.

So overall, Perturabo wins.

I don't think the Iron Cage really counts as a good example of who wins. It was a specially designed trap the Fists knowing and willingly walked into.

dorn at the time was also suffering a massive case of survivor's guilt so wasn't in his right mind

pm713 wrote:
I don't think the Iron Cage really counts as a good example of who wins.

Why not? Is there some sort of magical criteria where we have to discount battles or something? Sure we can probably safely discount curbstomp battles where one side didn't have a chance in hell of winning, because it doesn't matter how good a commander is if the chance of victory isn't really there in the first place. But, IIRC the numbers were pretty balanced at the beginning, and the entire Imperial Fists legion was there and had Dorn commanding them. The fists willingly walked into a battle where the Iron Warriors had a massive defensive advantage and were crushed because they were either too stubborn or thought they were better in siege warfare then they actually were.

BrianDavion wrote:
dorn at the time was also suffering a massive case of survivor's guilt so wasn't in his right mind

And Perturabo used that against him. I fail to see why we have to make allowances for Dorn's state of mind... If an opponent is capable of seeing and utilizing a flaw in your personality to win a military victory over you, doesn't that mean he bested you?

In a duel Perturabo would massacre Dorn.

Dorn is, frankly, the buttmonkey of the Primarchs. There is not a single thing he is shown to excel at when one looks at the facts. He just barely scraped a win against canonically the smallest and physically weakest Primarch in Alpharius, who was also never noted to be a particularly strong duelist at all.

Perturabo has acquainted himself well against his brothers.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I don't think the Iron Cage really counts as a good example of who wins.

Why not? Is there some sort of magical criteria where we have to discount battles or something? Sure we can probably safely discount curbstomp battles where one side didn't have a chance in hell of winning, because it doesn't matter how good a commander is if the chance of victory isn't really there in the first place. But, IIRC the numbers were pretty balanced at the beginning, and the entire Imperial Fists legion was there and had Dorn commanding them. The fists willingly walked into a battle where the Iron Warriors had a massive defensive advantage and were crushed because they were either too stubborn or thought they were better in siege warfare then they actually were.

BrianDavion wrote:
dorn at the time was also suffering a massive case of survivor's guilt so wasn't in his right mind

And Perturabo used that against him. I fail to see why we have to make allowances for Dorn's state of mind... If an opponent is capable of seeing and utilizing a flaw in your personality to win a military victory over you, doesn't that mean he bested you?

The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

Depends on if Dorn is able to plan out the fight beforehand. If they have time to make preparations, I'd give it to Dorn. If it's just SUDDENLY THESE TWO FIGHT, probably Petulabo.

pm713 wrote:
The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

I didn't ignore your reasoning, I just don't accept it as valid. If we start picking and choosing which battles "count" things become a lot more subjective. Yes, the Iron Cage was a trap, specifically designed against the Imperial fists. But it was still a battle, namely, the ONLY battle (as far as we know) where Perturabo and Dorn fought as commanders of their respective forces against each other. The entire Imperial Fists legion was present, it's not as if they were terribly outnumbered or something, they were just beaten at their own game. Does that not say something about the tactical acumen of Perturabo vs Dorn? People are complaining that Dorn was "crazy with grief" and "not in his right mind" but doesn't that mean Perturabo was good enough to exploit that and deserves credit?

Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

I didn't ignore your reasoning, I just don't accept it as valid. If we start picking and choosing which battles "count" things become a lot more subjective. Yes, the Iron Cage was a trap, specifically designed against the Imperial fists. But it was still a battle, namely, the ONLY battle (as far as we know) where Perturabo and Dorn fought as commanders of their respective forces against each other. The entire Imperial Fists legion was present, it's not as if they were terribly outnumbered or something, they were just beaten at their own game. Does that not say something about the tactical acumen of Perturabo vs Dorn? People are complaining that Dorn was "crazy with grief" and "not in his right mind" but doesn't that mean Perturabo was good enough to exploit that and deserves credit?

Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

pm713 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
The why not part is in the part of my post you cut out.

A singular very special battle is not how you determine the better commander overall, you look at overall strategic skills and performance.

I didn't ignore your reasoning, I just don't accept it as valid. If we start picking and choosing which battles "count" things become a lot more subjective. Yes, the Iron Cage was a trap, specifically designed against the Imperial fists. But it was still a battle, namely, the ONLY battle (as far as we know) where Perturabo and Dorn fought as commanders of their respective forces against each other. The entire Imperial Fists legion was present, it's not as if they were terribly outnumbered or something, they were just beaten at their own game. Does that not say something about the tactical acumen of Perturabo vs Dorn? People are complaining that Dorn was "crazy with grief" and "not in his right mind" but doesn't that mean Perturabo was good enough to exploit that and deserves credit?

Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

this. the Iron Cage is a singular data point. However given one of the commanders was emotionally comprimised it's a poor judge of that commanders abilities

It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument.

Sadly Perty and Lord Adorable have never had a proper fight either of them have been prepared for. In addition, it's like any comic book fight. The one who wins is who the author wants to win.

But my money is on Bou.

pm713 wrote:
If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

Now who is ignoring whom? I never claimed that Perturabo was overall a better commander than Dorn. I did say:

w1zard wrote:
Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

BrianDavion wrote:
this. the Iron Cage is a singular data point. However given one of the commanders was emotionally comprimised it's a poor judge of that commanders abilities

Again, we cannot start picking and choosing which battles "count" and which do not. Oh, Magnus losing to Russ didn't count because he was in emotional anguish... Horus losing to the emperor doesn't count because he didn't have his wheaties that morning...

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument....

It isn't like that at all... Dorn knew what he was doing when he went into the Iron Cage and thought he was good enough to drag Perturbo back to Terra despite the heavy casualties he knew he was going to take. He was wrong, again.

"Upon discovering the Eternal Fortress, Dorn declared that he would go there and bring Perturabo back to Terra in an iron cage." -Index Astartes

 Jazzylee wrote:
Who would win in a one on one fight with no outside interference?

Whichever one you like best.

Threads like this are silly.

 Melissia wrote:
Depends on if Dorn is able to plan out the fight beforehand. If they have time to make preparations, I'd give it to Dorn. If it's just SUDDENLY THESE TWO FIGHT, probably Petulabo.

Well Perty is just as good (or close enough) at preparations.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
If someone is basically insane with grief and as a result willingly walks into a trap that isn't a measure of how they are as a strategic commander. Why isn't that valid?

Using the Iron Cage as reasoning for Perturabo being a better commander overall than Dorn is like saying Dorn is a better commander if he fights Perturabo while he's unconscious.

Now who is ignoring whom? I never claimed that Perturabo was overall a better commander than Dorn. I did say:

w1zard wrote:
Losing one battle against another commander doesn't automatically make someone a worse commander. But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

BrianDavion wrote:
this. the Iron Cage is a singular data point. However given one of the commanders was emotionally comprimised it's a poor judge of that commanders abilities

Again, we cannot start picking and choosing which battles "count" and which do not. Oh, Magnus losing to Russ didn't count because he was in emotional anguish... Horus losing to the emperor doesn't count because he didn't have his wheaties that morning...

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument....

It isn't like that at all... Dorn knew what he was doing when he went into the Iron Cage and thought he was good enough to drag Perturbo back to Terra despite the heavy casualties he knew he was going to take. He was wrong, again.

"Upon discovering the Eternal Fortress, Dorn declared that he would go there and bring Perturabo back to Terra in an iron cage." -Index Astartes

actually I WOULD discount Prosperio in Magnus vs Russ as Magnus was, until the end, basicly looking to die.

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument.

There was a "best fist-fighter" thread where folks did exactly that.

Engrenages wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Depends on if Dorn is able to plan out the fight beforehand. If they have time to make preparations, I'd give it to Dorn. If it's just SUDDENLY THESE TWO FIGHT, probably Petulabo.

Well Perty is just as good (or close enough) at preparations.

Only time he managed to beat Dorn as a planner, IIRC, was the Iron Cage, when Dorn basically went in without plans in order to prove a point to his own legion about the Codex Astartes by causing them to feel such pain that they would rethink their position on it. Basically Dorn went in to that TRYING to lose, and still managed to hold on long enough to be relieved by the Ultramarines and win in the end, and prevent the destruction of his legion to the point that he still had enough marines to form quite a few chapters upon accepting the Codex Astartes.

Dorn was a genius amongst geniuses at battle planning and preparation. it's how he utterly dismantled all of the petulant manchild's empire with minimal resistance in the first place, making Perturabo try to design something to challenge him to begin with. All of the Primarchs were good at waging war, sure, but Dorn was still a step above the rest, with few outside of Horus being able to match him.

Void__Dragon wrote: He just barely scraped a win against canonically the smallest and physically weakest Primarch in Alpharius, who was also never noted to be a particularly strong duelist at all.

Is it ever actually said Alpharius was the weakest or not as good in combat? I know there are a few who are mostly talked about but I don't recall anything suggesting Alpharius was a poor combatant amongst the Primarchs. It just seems assumed as there were two of them.

w1zard wrote:
But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

How the Iron Cage went down had to interpretations.

One says that the Peturabo had a massive advantage but was too cruel to capitalise on it and the Ultramarines rescused the Fists.

The other says the fight going to the end would have led to mututal destruction of the Legions and Primarchs.

Why is everyone so certain the pro-Iron Warrior version is the correct one?

Yeah, I mean, bear in mind.... Dorn won the overwhelming majority of his battles in the war against Peturabo. Like, his dismantling of Peturabo's empire wasn't even a challenge. If he had gone in to the Iron Cage with a goal other than "Cause pain to my legion so they learn that the codex astartes is necessary", he'd have won that battle just as easily.

Peturabo's a more deadly opponent one on one to be sure... but give him time to plan and prepare, and Dorn will fight just as well, if not better.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, I mean, bear in mind.... Dorn won the overwhelming majority of his battles in the war against Peturabo. Like, his dismantling of Peturabo's empire wasn't even a challenge. If he had gone in to the Iron Cage with a goal other than "Cause pain to my legion so they learn that the codex astartes is necessary", he'd have won that battle just as easily.

Peturabo's a more deadly opponent one on one to be sure... but give him time to plan and prepare, and Dorn will fight just as well, if not better.

Plan what? How to swing his hammer better? Malarky. The thread is about who wins one on one in combat. You don't plan close combat in the way you plan a battle. Never mind the fact that Pert is a demon primarch. The ass stomping would be swift and messy. Once more, Dorns ability to plan has ZERO bearing in this thread.

The outcome of this encounter isn't even question nor should it be.

Table wrote:
You don't plan close combat in the way you plan a battle.

The only difference between one on one combat, and a full fledged battle, is the scale.

Ambushes for example can easily be a one on one fight.

 Melissia wrote:
Dorn was a genius amongst geniuses at battle planning and preparation. it's how he utterly dismantled all of the petulant manchild's empire with minimal resistance in the first place, making Perturabo try to design something to challenge him to begin with. All of the Primarchs were good at waging war, sure, but Dorn was still a step above the rest, with few outside of Horus being able to match him.

Dorn dismantled Perturabo's "Iron Empire" this is true, but Perturabo wasn't really there to command the forces of the Iron Empire against Dorn. He was fleeing toward the eye of Terror at the time with the rest of the traitor legions.

Claiming that Dorn is a better strategist because he destroyed Perturabo's empire when he wasn't even there doesn't track. Would be like saying someone is a better fighter than someone else because they went into their house when they weren't home and wrecked all of their stuff.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
One says that the Peturabo had a massive advantage but was too cruel to capitalise on it and the Ultramarines rescused the Fists.

The other says the fight going to the end would have led to mututal destruction of the Legions and Primarchs.

Why is everyone so certain the pro-Iron Warrior version is the correct one?

Because the pro-Iron Warrior's version was the original canonical version, and the "new" version was just a different "take" on the same situation that is a relatively recent development in the lore IIRC. Unless they do a full retcon (which they haven't), I think the older version that has been around for decades holds more weight.

The new "take" doesn't make any sense either... if the Iron Warriors were able to withdraw AFTER the ultramarines showed up, it follows by logic that they could have done so at any time PRIOR to that. If what the Fists say is true and that the battle would have ended with both legions wiped out, that meant that the Iron Warriors meant to MUTUALLY ANNHIALATE the fists... If they were so dead set on that mutual annihilation then why did they even flee at all when the ultramarines showed up? Why not just detonate the whole battleground and kill themselves along with the rest of the fists and who knows how many ultramarines?

IMO the new "take" is a bunch of Fist fanboys trying to explain away how their primarch and legion got their asses kicked by Perturabo and the IW. The Iron Warriors were on the verge of wiping the Fists entirely, and because Perturabo was drawing things out to cause the Fists more suffering it gave time for the ultramarines to come to the rescue. The Iron Warriors at that point withdrew because it wasn't worth suiciding themselves just to kill whatever was left of the Fists, they had been taught their lesson.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
How the Iron Cage went down had to interpretations.

One says that the Peturabo had a massive advantage but was too cruel to capitalise on it and the Ultramarines rescused the Fists.

The other says the fight going to the end would have led to mututal destruction of the Legions and Primarchs.

Why is everyone so certain the pro-Iron Warrior version is the correct one?

Because the original, objective, and canonical telling of the story was the "pro-Iron Warrior version". Perturabo goaded an emotionally-compromised Dorn into a vicious trap that tore his entire Legion to shreds, all for the sake of conquering an empty fortress rigged to blow... then failed to actually score the kill because he was too busy rubbing his hands (and other parts of his anatomy) at the thought of finally beating Dorn. This act of incredibly petty one-upsmanship set the stage for the modern state of both Legions: Dorn was only saved by Guilliman's intervention, which forced him to eat humble pie and accept the Codex Astartes, and Perturabo absconded with enough stolen Imperial Fists gene-seed to buy Medrengard and immortality from the Chaos Gods (and create mongrels like Honsou). That was how it happened, no ifs or buts.

The "other version" is a very recent addition to the setting, and claims that nuh-uh, it totally would have been a draw, and anyway Dorn wanted to lose because he already thought the Codex Astartes was totes awesome, but his S&M glove convinced him that the only way to get his most loyal soldiers to accept it was to lead them like witless pigs to slaughter, so really, who was the real winner here? Most fans aren't particularly well-inclined toward retcons to begin with, but they're even more likely to ignore it when the retcon in question sounds like Rogal Dorn whining on his blog about how he meant to get his ass kicked, it was all a social experiment you guys.

The original version was a neat bit of setting material that showed off Perturabo's bitter and cruel pettiness, exemplified Dorn's stubbornness and pride, demonstrated Guilliman's ambiguous opportunism, satisfactorily explained the acceptance of the Codex Astartes, set the grudge between two Legions in stone, and gave Iron Warriors their only notable "victory" in the Horus Heresy, having spent most of it outside of the main battlezones. The alternate version is a bit of attempted pro-Fists fanfic that results in this:

Rogal Dorn: "I'm bleeding, making me the victor!"
Guilliman: "Please forgive Rogal Dorn. He is an idiot. We have purposefully trained him wrong, as a joke."

 Melissia wrote:
Dorn was a genius amongst geniuses at battle planning and preparation. it's how he utterly dismantled all of the petulant manchild's empire with minimal resistance in the first place, making Perturabo try to design something to challenge him to begin with. All of the Primarchs were good at waging war, sure, but Dorn was still a step above the rest, with few outside of Horus being able to match him.

"Wherever the Iron Warriors fought, they raised great citadels in their wake. Jagged towers mounting heinous weapons of destruction dominated the surrounding terrain, each a monument to Perturabo’s cunning. Fields of trenches and forests of razor wire surrounded the strongholds of the Iron Warriors, such that the loyalists began to dread the bloody assaults needed to destroy them. Even after Horus’ defeat, the Iron Warriors were only driven out of the Imperium’s worlds at a terrible price. The rest of the Legion defended the small empire they had built centred around their home world of Olympia, but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed with great risk of further injury. The Olympia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor Legion home worlds, was declared perditas."
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 2019

Dismantled with minimal resistance?

RevlidRas wrote:
Dismantled with minimal resistance?

Exactly, and as stated, the "Iron Empire" was being held together by a token garrison of Iron Warriors, from what I understand Perturabo and the main bulk of the legion were retreating toward the eye of terror and were not present for these battles.

 Melissia wrote:

Table wrote:
You don't plan close combat in the way you plan a battle.

The only difference between one on one combat, and a full fledged battle, is the scale.

Ambushes for example can easily be a one on one fight.

Even in an melee ambush you still have to fight. I cant imagine Dorn 1 hit KOing Pert. That would be asinine at best. Also, what if Pert had time to "plan"? You can only go by what is in canon. And with that in mind the answer is quite clear (so clear I don't know why this thread was created)….Pert would PASTE Dorn one on one. You have one of the most powerful Demon Primarchs vs One of the weakest (in melee combat). Pert is not stupid, not by any metric. He is quite brilliant. Im not sure where you are getting that Dorn can "plan" better. Perhaps link a quote to assuage my ignorance.

We have massive fanboy/girls of both parties in this thread and I can safely say I myself am not unbiased. I am a chaos player and my sympathies lie in that faction. Its why I say we only use what is canon and not head canon and what if's.

He wouldn't have to one hit KO him, but cripple him in the first blow so that his fighting ability is lessened, then use the other preparations he made (terrain, mines, equipment what have you) to make due after that, playing in to Petulant's personality and tricking him in to doing what Dorn wanted until Dorn manages to land the final blow.

You're not really being all that imaginative.

Boxers study film of their opponents, looking for weak spots in their guard, patterns in their attacks.

There is room for planning in 1:1 combat.

Has Dorn ever shown any ability to read other people and take advantage of their psychological weaknesses, though?

 Melissia wrote:
He wouldn't have to one hit KO him, but cripple him in the first blow so that his fighting ability is lessened, then use the other preparations he made (terrain, mines, equipment what have you) to make due after that, playing in to Petulant's personality and tricking him in to doing what Dorn wanted until Dorn manages to land the final blow.

You're not really being all that imaginative.

... and you should read other authors besides John French.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Has Dorn ever shown any ability to read other people and take advantage of their psychological weaknesses, though?

No, however Dorn has never been shown in any sort of enviroment where those skills would or wouldn't come into play. TBH we don't have eneugh info on Dorn's combat skill to make a detirmination eaither way. W edo however, know Dorn's not the WORST combatant of the Primarchs

 Melissia wrote:
He wouldn't have to one hit KO him, but cripple him in the first blow so that his fighting ability is lessened, then use the other preparations he made (terrain, mines, equipment what have you) to make due after that, playing in to Petulant's personality and tricking him in to doing what Dorn wanted until Dorn manages to land the final blow.

You're not really being all that imaginative.

Dorn's grasp of psychology has been repeatedly been shown to be... limited. He's honest, straightforward, uncompromising, and diligent to the point that it becomes a real flaw. He confronts his problems head-on, with skill and brilliance and decisiveness but all the subtlety of a Land Raider. He takes this approach even in the social and political arena, which is why he has the fewest friends and the most enemies among all the Primarchs, traitor and loyalist alike. Even Angron got on with Lorgar. Dorn's blunt, even brutal honesty aggravated his one-sided rivalry with Perturabo, kicked off Konrad Kurze's final spiral into insanity, and pissed off Alpharius something fierce.

If you told me Alpharius or Corax would capitalize on Perturabo's psychological weaknesses, I'd believe you in a second. Kurze, Guilliman, Horus, Magnus, even Leman, sure, I'd believe it. But Dorn? That's not his skill set, and it's not how he operates.

Moreover, it's a bit bizarre to finger Dorn as the one able to provoke Perturabo and trick him into a disadvantageous position, given their only direct conflict went the exact opposite way.

Seeing as I know nothing about the ways of the imperium or anything about these two characters I am just going to say this:


Puertorabo = Sounds like 'portobello' so is a pizza topping.

Rogan Dorn = Sounds like 'Rogan Josh' so is a curry..

I think i like a good curry over a good pizza... So I'm going with the Rogan josh ?

w1zard wrote:

Because the pro-Iron Warrior's version was the original canonical version, and the "new" version was just a different "take" on the same situation that is a relatively recent development in the lore IIRC. Unless they do a full retcon (which they haven't), I think the older version that has been around for decades holds more weight.

The new "take" doesn't make any sense either... if the Iron Warriors were able to withdraw AFTER the ultramarines showed up, it follows by logic that they could have done so at any time PRIOR to that. If what the Fists say is true and that the battle would have ended with both legions wiped out, that meant that the Iron Warriors meant to MUTUALLY ANNHIALATE the fists... If they were so dead set on that mutual annihilation then why did they even flee at all when the ultramarines showed up? Why not just detonate the whole battleground and kill themselves along with the rest of the fists and who knows how many ultramarines?

IMO the new "take" is a bunch of Fist fanboys trying to explain away how their primarch and legion got their asses kicked by Perturabo and the IW. The Iron Warriors were on the verge of wiping the Fists entirely, and because Perturabo was drawing things out to cause the Fists more suffering it gave time for the ultramarines to come to the rescue. The Iron Warriors at that point withdrew because it wasn't worth suiciding themselves just to kill whatever was left of the Fists, they had been taught their lesson.

As far as I know they were both introduced in the Index Astartes articles in a fairly close timespan. It was a nice way of portraying two viewpoints of the same situation; the facts are there but what may have happened if the Ultramarines hadn't intervened is left open. However due to how it's written using the Iron Cage to demonstrate Peturabo's superiority doesn't really work.

It's not that the Iron Warriors couldn't withdraw. It's that putting in the force to destroy the Imperial Fists would grind themselves down as well. Once the Ultramarines interceded destroying the Imperial Fists was no longer a realistic possibility hence nothing to gain by staying.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Except Alpharius...

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It's not that the Iron Warriors couldn't withdraw. It's that putting in the force to destroy the Imperial Fists would grind themselves down as well. Once the Ultramarines interceded destroying the Imperial Fists was no longer a realistic possibility hence nothing to gain by staying.

Except it was stated numerous times that the Iron Warriors had the ability to detonate the fortress and kill everyone inside (themselves included) whenever they wanted... If they were so dead set on "mutual annihilation" with the Fists, then why would a few Ultramarines being thrown into the bargain change their mind?

Also, these two different takes were not introduced "at the same time", the original "pro-iron warriors" version was from earlier chaos codices (years earlier), and other lore books. Read RevlidRas' explanation, he does it better justice than I.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Except Alpharius...

yeah as I said I don't know why so many people are bashing Dorn's combat ability, IIRC he's the only Loyalist Primarch with a confirmed kill of a primarch (and before someone says Russ I repeat CONFIRMED Kill)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Except Alpharius...

yeah as I said I don't know why so many people are bashing Dorn's combat ability, IIRC he's the only Loyalist Primarch with a confirmed kill of a primarch (and before someone says Russ I repeat CONFIRMED Kill)

In fairness most of the times the Loyalists get the chance to kill a Traitor something happens to make it into a "die and kill him or leave and survive" deal. There's been something like 3 times when a Loyalist Primarch could have killed a Traitor one but plot happened.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

As far as I know they were both introduced in the Index Astartes articles in a fairly close timespan. It was a nice way of portraying two viewpoints of the same situation; the facts are there but what may have happened if the Ultramarines hadn't intervened is left open. However due to how it's written using the Iron Cage to demonstrate Peturabo's superiority doesn't really work.

The first time I read the story was in Codex: Chaos Space Marines back in... I want to say the late 90s? So even if that was literally the first time it ever showed up, I'm pretty sure the Iron Warriors "version" came first.

RevlidRas wrote: Dorn's blunt, even brutal honesty aggravated his one-sided rivalry with Perturabo, kicked off Konrad Kurze's final spiral into insanity, and pissed off Alpharius something fierce.

If you told me Alpharius or Corax would capitalize on Perturabo's psychological weaknesses, I'd believe you in a second. Kurze, Guilliman, Horus, Magnus, even Leman, sure, I'd believe it. But Dorn? That's not his skill set, and it's not how he operates.

Moreover, it's a bit bizarre to finger Dorn as the one able to provoke Perturabo and trick him into a disadvantageous position, given their only direct conflict went the exact opposite way.

Surely you mean Perty's one sided Rivalry with Dorn? Dorn could give a rat's arse about what Perty thought of him or their "Rivalry". And it wouldn't really be bizarre to finger Dorn as being able to provoke Perty, as he's already done exactly that, his provoking of Perty set Perty on the war path of proving himself against Dorn. Where as Perty's goading of Dorn was pretty much telling a grieving man "Haha I was there when your dad died." Also everyone pissed on Alpharius, but Alpharius being mad at Dorn didnt stop him from trying to sway him.

w1zard wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It's not that the Iron Warriors couldn't withdraw. It's that putting in the force to destroy the Imperial Fists would grind themselves down as well. Once the Ultramarines interceded destroying the Imperial Fists was no longer a realistic possibility hence nothing to gain by staying.

Except it was stated numerous times that the Iron Warriors had the ability to detonate the fortress and kill everyone inside (themselves included) whenever they wanted... If they were so dead set on "mutual annihilation" with the Fists, then why would a few Ultramarines being thrown into the bargain change their mind?

That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

Rather more like Dorn's whole "totally meant to get drawn into that trap and get my own legion nearly killed to a man, no it was completely intentional guys I swear" angle is pretty bullgak.

The Iron Warriors never intended for the cage to be a suicide mission where both legions would be wiped out. They were winning handily, and the only reason that the Fists weren't killed to a man (Dorn included) was because Perturabo was drawing the whole thing out to make Dorn and his men suffer as much as possible (which fits his character entirely). Once the Ultramarines showed up the Iron Warriors had to withdraw because they no longer had the time to finish the Fists off, and it was NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE MISSION.

w1zard wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

Rather more like Dorn's whole "totally meant to get drawn into that trap and get my own legion nearly killed to a man, no it was completely intentional guys I swear" angle is pretty bullgak.

Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

pm713 wrote:
Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... Perturabo is an EXTREMELY flawed man. Imagine not being able to defeat your rival completely because you hate him so much that you were too busy trying to make him suffer...

But IMO Dorn is just as flawed, and for some reason a lot of people seem to think he was the golden boy when he really wasn't. He was arrogant, stubborn (beyond even Perturabo), honest to a fault (which contrary to what people like to think is NOT a good thing), and not very nice to pretty much anyone who wasn't the emperor. He also had an inflated sense of his own abilities and self-importance among the primarchs because he was given the job of fortifying Terra (Malcador roasts him constantly about this).

w1zard wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

Rather more like Dorn's whole "totally meant to get drawn into that trap and get my own legion nearly killed to a man, no it was completely intentional guys I swear" angle is pretty bullgak.

The Iron Warriors never intended for the cage to be a suicide mission where both legions would be wiped out. They were winning handily, and the only reason that the Fists weren't killed to a man (Dorn included) was because Perturabo was drawing the whole thing out to make Dorn and his men suffer as much as possible (which fits his character entirely). Once the Ultramarines showed up the Iron Warriors had to withdraw because they no longer had the time to finish the Fists off, and it was NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE MISSION.

I'm not saying Dorn's stance inst dumb. But these Tactical Genius' that wanted to wipe out the Imperial Fists didnt just leave a handfull of dudes behind to detonate the cage and kill them right before Bobby G got there? Or as he got there? The whole Legion didnt need to die,but a handful to secure a hated enemy? The Iron Warriors had their chance, and faltered in the face of it. Sure the Fists may have needed the Ultramarines to win, but they still won.

@pm713 thats the truth, they were both dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... Perturabo is an EXTREMELY flawed man. Imagine not being able to defeat your rival completely because you hate him so much that you were too busy trying to make him suffer...

But IMO Dorn is just as flawed, and for some reason a lot of people seem to think he was the golden boy when he really wasn't. He was arrogant, stubborn (beyond even Perturabo), honest to a fault (which contrary to what people like to think is NOT a good thing), and not very nice to pretty much anyone who wasn't the emperor. He also had an inflated sense of his own abilities and self-importance among the primarchs because he was given the job of fortifying Terra (Malcador roasts him constantly about this).

He does those, but he also comes to realize that he really shouldnt be the one calling the shots. Specifically in MoMK saying he wised Guilliman was there, so he could be in charge.I dont like Dorn because he's perfect, I like Dorn because of all he is, including his faults, he's a more compelling faulted person than Perty, who is just whinny.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Iron Warriors had their chance, and faltered in the face of it. Sure the Fists may have needed the Ultramarines to win, but they still won.

Not sure how getting your legion nearly wiped out counts as "winning" but ok...

If you want to consider "we should have been wiped out but were not" somewhat of a small, pyrrhic victory then I guess I can agree with that angle, but I wouldn't call that "winning".

Fine its a draw, because both Legions failed to secure their Primary Objectives, but its a victory because the Ultramarines denied the IW the kill.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Fine its a draw, because both Legions failed to secure their Primary Objectives, but its a victory because the Ultramarines denied the IW the kill.

It was not a draw. The Iron Warriors inflicted disproportionate casualties onto the Fists, and would have wiped them out completely if not for Guilliman. Perturabo took all of the geneseed from the fallen Fists and and gifted it to the chaos gods, in return they elevated him to daemonhood. There is absolutely no way anyone but a Dorn fanboy can look at that as a "draw" let alone "winning".

Except neither of them succeded in obtaining their Primary Objectives.

Its a Pyrric (but moral) Victory for the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines.

And a Moral Victory for the Iron Warriors. Also "All" no, he took the Geneseed from 400 Imperial Fists.

Hence a draw.

Im absolutely not a Dorn fanboy, I like him, I like him alot more than Perty to be sure. But I dont fanboy any of the Primarchs. Nice to see that your own insecurities require you trying to label everything though.

The earliest reference I can find to the Iron Cage is in Index Astartes I (released 2002), so the actual White Dwarf article must've been in the year or two before. The 1998 3rd edition Chaos Codex is extremely light on fluff and makes no mention of the battle.

The Imperial Fist fluff came in Index Astartes II, which was published a year later in 2003, so whilst it was definitely afterwards, as the intention of Index Astartes was to cover the Legions in chronological order, it is from the same period of fluff and was likely mapped out at a similar time.

Unless someone can find a notably earlier source than Index Astartes in the early 2000's, I will treat the fluff and contiguous and of essentially equal provenance.

For perspective, the 1990 Lost and the Damned book has the early form of the Horus Heresy in it (much retconned even by 3rd edition), and there is no mention of the Scouring at all in there. So the fluff is mid 90's at the earliest.


As such, we have two equally canonical interpretations of the Iron Cage incident- that the Iron Warriors were merely toying with their opponents and missed their opportunity to wipe them out when the Ultramarines arrived, and that the stubborness of the Fists demanded mutual destruction to eradicate with the Iron Warriors not prepared to make this final sacrifice.

Eitherway, aspects of the battle accounts that don't contradict should be accepted without issue, like Dorn wishing to put his entire Legion "through the pain glove". So it really isn't a fair representation of the strategic abilities of Dorn when he deliberately dropped his typical battle approach to put his Legion through "cleansing" pain. Still stupid mind.


If someone can provide a notably earlier source for the Iron Cage, then yes, that does change the situation somewhat.

 Haighus wrote:
Eitherway, aspects of the battle accounts that don't contradict should be accepted without issue, like Dorn wishing to put his entire Legion "through the pain glove".

That was only in the "pro-Fists" version. In the original "pro-Ion Warriors" version it was because Perturabo had taunted Dorn into attacking, and Dorn was too stubborn to withdraw when he was losing.

"Upon discovering that the Iron Warriors had taken refuge within the Eternal Fortress, Dorn declared that he and his Legion would travel to Sebastus IV and bring Perturabo back to Terra in an iron cage."

"The battle lasted another three weeks. The Imperial Fists' ammunition was expended and they fought individually in half flooded trenches with their combat knives, refusing to submit while they dug into the mud and used their fallen Battle-Brothers for cover. Dorn personally turned back a number of attacks. The Legion's Captains pleaded with their primarch to organize a breakout and retreat, but Dorn refused. Ever loyal, the Imperial Fists resigned to die fighting alongside their lord if necessary."

-Paraphrased from Index Astartes I

It looked into it and it looks like you are correct, the original "pro-Iron Warriors" version came out only a year before the Fists version, I honestly had thought it was longer than that. I don't however buy the argument that they "came out at the same time"... Index Astartes 1 came out a full year before Index Astartes 2.

w1zard wrote:
Index Astartes 1 came out a full year before Index Astartes 2.

Yes, but those were just compilations. The original WD articles for the IW and IF were published a mere 3 months apart (UK WD256 and 259 respectively), and both were written by Pete Haines. So they're obviously meant to be complementary, "two sides of the same story", not a retcon.

they both suck !

In all fairness, Dorn & Perturabo both won and lost. Neither died, but each were denied the "satisfaction" of ending each other.
If it was a bare handed (get it) fist fight, whichever one goes first would probably win, unless one of them rolled a 6.

Anyway, I'm not sure whom would be the champion.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Yes, but those were just compilations. The original WD articles for the IW and IF were published a mere 3 months apart (UK WD256 and 259 respectively), and both were written by Pete Haines. So they're obviously meant to be complementary, "two sides of the same story", not a retcon.

Then what do we do when we have "two sides of the same story" that directly contradict each other in certain areas?

w1zard wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Yes, but those were just compilations. The original WD articles for the IW and IF were published a mere 3 months apart (UK WD256 and 259 respectively), and both were written by Pete Haines. So they're obviously meant to be complementary, "two sides of the same story", not a retcon.

Then what do we do when we have "two sides of the same story" that directly contradict each other in certain areas?

take both versions as half truth/half propaganda. I like it when GW leaves things ambiguous & makes you question the POV. Too much detail kinda ruins it.

Racerguy180 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:
Yes, but those were just compilations. The original WD articles for the IW and IF were published a mere 3 months apart (UK WD256 and 259 respectively), and both were written by Pete Haines. So they're obviously meant to be complementary, "two sides of the same story", not a retcon.

Then what do we do when we have "two sides of the same story" that directly contradict each other in certain areas?

take both versions as half truth/half propaganda. I like it when GW leaves things ambiguous & makes you question the POV. Too much detail kinda ruins it.

Plus, the only bit that truly contradicts is whether the Iron Warriors could wipe out the Fists at any moment, but toyed with them, or whether they were not willing to make the final sacrifice to wipe out the Fists. The rest can easily be chalked up to information the other side is not privy to.

The weird bit, for me, is why the IW didn't wipe out the remaining Fists as soon as they got wind of the arriving Ultramarines- it generally takes some time to reach planetside from exiting the Warp in a system, and the IW had a picket of spacecraft to warn them. So why not make that final push as soon as they realised time was running out? That suggests, to me, that the IW could not finish the job as easily as their account states they could. They probably could do it with less casualties than the Fists account says they could though, but still too long/costly within the circumstances.

w1zard wrote:
Then what do we do when we have "two sides of the same story" that directly contradict each other in certain areas?

We sigh nostalgically and recall, misty-eyed, that that's how things were done back in 3rd edition. Or we roll our eyes and mutter darkly about how GW tried to make everything vague and contradictory (and sometimes over-the-top-mysterious and too-clever-for-its-own-good) in 3rd edition. It was controversial at the time. I've no doubt we will eventually get a BL novel that gives the Totally Official You Guys version of the story, and it will somehow manage to be much lamer than either of the current contradictory versions. And probably make both Perturabo and Dorn look like idiots dragged along by the Almighty Plot rather than actual characters with their own personalities and values.

 Haighus wrote:
The weird bit, for me, is why the IW didn't wipe out the remaining Fists as soon as they got wind of the arriving Ultramarines- it generally takes some time to reach planetside from exiting the Warp in a system, and the IW had a picket of spacecraft to warn them. So why not make that final push as soon as they realised time was running out? That suggests, to me, that the IW could not finish the job as easily as their account states they could. They probably could do it with less casualties than the Fists account says they could though, but still too long/costly within the circumstances.

Personally, I think the pro-Iron Warrior makes a lot more sense than the pro-Fists version. Even if the Fists were on the verge of losing, it still could have taken longer than a day to "finish them off" considering that the battle had raged almost two weeks by this point, plenty of time for the Ultramarines to deploy from space to the ground and stop the Iron Warriors. And the fact that the Iron Warriors had the power to blow the whole fortress at any given time seems to indicate to me that a "mutual annihilation" battle was never the objective, it was about inflicting disproportionate casualties on the Fists (or wiping them out if possible) and humiliating Dorn. Perturabo was just enjoying himself too much to bring himself to end it quickly, and when the ultramarines showed up unexpectedly it became "crap, too late, it's time to go".

As was also said before, the whole idea of Dorn "totally accepting the codex astartes, but he needed to put his men through a pointless meatgrinder first for some reason" is a little stupid. The pro-Iron Warrior version stacks up better with what we know about Perturabo's and Dorn's personalities, and Guilliman's political pragmatism. The pro-Fists version makes it seems like the Fists "totally meant to lose, serious guys".

w1zard wrote:

 Haighus wrote:
The weird bit, for me, is why the IW didn't wipe out the remaining Fists as soon as they got wind of the arriving Ultramarines- it generally takes some time to reach planetside from exiting the Warp in a system, and the IW had a picket of spacecraft to warn them. So why not make that final push as soon as they realised time was running out? That suggests, to me, that the IW could not finish the job as easily as their account states they could. They probably could do it with less casualties than the Fists account says they could though, but still too long/costly within the circumstances.

Personally, I think the pro-Iron Warrior makes a lot more sense than the pro-Fists version. Even if the Fists were on the verge of losing, it still could have taken longer than a day to "finish them off" considering that the battle had raged almost two weeks by this point, plenty of time for the Ultramarines to deploy from space to the ground and stop the Iron Warriors. And the fact that the Iron Warriors had the power to blow the whole fortress at any given time seems to indicate to me that a "mutual annihilation" battle was never the objective, it was about inflicting disproportionate casualties on the Fists (or wiping them out if possible) and humiliating Dorn. Perturabo was just enjoying himself too much to bring himself to end it quickly, and when the ultramarines showed up unexpectedly it became "crap, too late, it's time to go".

As was also said before, the whole idea of Dorn "totally accepting the codex astartes, but he needed to put his men through a pointless meatgrinder first for some reason" is a little stupid. The pro-Iron Warrior version stacks up better with what we know about Perturabo's and Dorn's personalities, and Guilliman's political pragmatism. The pro-Fists version makes it seems like the Fists "totally meant to lose, serious guys".

But why did they not leave a rearguard to blow the fortress anyway? The whole battle involved pockets of Iron Warriors left to die as rearguards in the Index Astartes IW account, and Perturabo absolutely would expect troops under his command to carry out such an action. The two IA accounts also have no mention of said explosives in the first place- the only explosives mentioned are used to blow up the remote silos.

The Ultramarines should take more than a day to arrive from the Warp entry point- typically in 40k this seems to take at least a few days, commonly weeks. Ground-to-orbit communication was (deliberately) impaired through the silo blasts kicking debris into the atmosphere, but Perturabo (along with most of the Primarchs) is the kind of commander to create some kind of contingency to allow his fleet to warn him of approaching enemies. Indeed, he somehow knew of the approach of the Ultramarines early enough to evacuate, and this would have required coordination with the fleet. So why not detonate the possible explosives/otherwise wipe out the remaining Fists prior to their arrival? It is all a bit odd.

We know the Imperial Fists survive with at least 6000 Marines, although probably not as many as 8000 Marines*. They started the Horus Heresy with approximately 100000, so over the entire Heresy and Scouring, that is some pretty hefty losses, especially considering that there would still be recruitment from worlds over the 20 odd years where possible. We know around 20000 didn't make it back from the events around Phall alone, and several thousand were likely scattered across the Imperium in garrisons, such as the garrisons in the Manachea Commonwealth. However, the Fists would have suffered huge casualties at Terra, so could easily have entered the Scouring with a total strength in the low ten thousands. Considering this, the numbers surviving the Iron Cage are not that low.

I absolutely agree Dorn's reasoning here is bonkers, although it does make a kind of in-character sense within the context of a Legion that regularly does something as bizarre as using the Pain glove.


*Based on there being five confirmed Second Founding IF successors plus the IFs themselves (Excoriators, Soul Drinkers, Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Knights Exemplar), and one other Chapter known to be a member of the Last Wall protocol who could be a Second or Third founding Chapter (Iron Knights). However, as the Executioners are not a member of the protocol (confirmed Third Founding Chapter), that strongly suggests that the Iron Knights are a Second Founding Chapter too. As the Second Founding occurred immediately after the Iron Cage incident according to current background, this prevents significant recruitment from bolstering the IF numbers. Therefore, the Legion strength is probably between 6 and 8 thousand Marines following the Iron Cage.

In a one on one fight Perty but in a war Dorn.

 Haighus wrote:
The two IA accounts also have no mention of said explosives in the first place- the only explosives mentioned are used to blow up the remote silos.

I thought the Iron Warriors version also mentioned that the entire fortress was rigged for self-destruct as "insurance".

 Haighus wrote:
The Ultramarines should take more than a day to arrive from the Warp entry point- typically in 40k this seems to take at least a few days, commonly weeks. Ground-to-orbit communication was (deliberately) impaired through the silo blasts kicking debris into the atmosphere, but Perturabo (along with most of the Primarchs) is the kind of commander to create some kind of contingency to allow his fleet to warn him of approaching enemies. Indeed, he somehow knew of the approach of the Ultramarines early enough to evacuate, and this would have required coordination with the fleet. So why not detonate the possible explosives/otherwise wipe out the remaining Fists prior to their arrival? It is all a bit odd.

Sure, sometimes a fleet warps in and the defenders get advanced notice while the fleet coasts towards its destination from the outer halo... and sometimes that takes awhile, but not all of the time. I'm just not understanding how you can't see a situation where it is possible that the Iron Warriors had enough time to withdraw, but not enough time to finish off the Fists.

Secondly, it is possible that the Ultramarines rescued the surviving Fists immediately after they arrived, and right as they started to engage Perturabo's rearguard, making blowing up the fortress pointless (the Iron Warriors wanted to kill Fists, not Ultramarines). My point is that the timeline given to us is vague enough so that this kind of thing is possible.

"After three solar weeks and six days, the Ultramarines finally intervened despite the Imperial Fists' protests, driving the Iron Warriors off the world with a combined orbital and ground assault. Unable to defeat two full Legions that had combined their forces, Perturabo concentrated on denying the Imperial Fists' ability to withdraw intact and preventing them from collecting their dead and wounded. Over 400 Loyalist Battle-Brothers' bodies were never recovered by the Legion, and this failure still ranks as a terrible dishonour for the Imperial Fists and all of their Successor Chapters."

-Paraphrased from IA

It definitely sounds like Perturabo's withdrawal wasn't as "clean" as you seem to think. He may not have had the opportunity to trigger the fortresses' self-destruct without devastating his own legion in the process.

 Haighus wrote:
We know the Imperial Fists survive with at least 6000 Marines, although probably not as many as 8000 Marines*. They started the Horus Heresy with approximately 100000, so over the entire Heresy and Scouring, that is some pretty hefty losses, especially considering that there would still be recruitment from worlds over the 20 odd years where possible. We know around 20000 didn't make it back from the events around Phall alone, and several thousand were likely scattered across the Imperium in garrisons, such as the garrisons in the Manachea Commonwealth. However, the Fists would have suffered huge casualties at Terra, so could easily have entered the Scouring with a total strength in the low ten thousands. Considering this, the numbers surviving the Iron Cage are not that low.

No, we don't have exact numbers for how many Fists went into the Iron Cage, but we do know that it was the majority of the remaining legion. As you said, only roughly 6,000 walk out alive and at LEAST 500 die in the iron cage (in all likelihood probably many times that).

Even if, say 15,000 Fists walked into the iron cage, that is 60% casualties which is absolutely devastating. For reference, in a modern battle, anything over 15% casualties is considered "unacceptable losses" by most first world armies. To put it in another perspective, the British Army during WW1 numbered roughly 2 million men... The battle of the Somme which is one of the bloodiest battles in history saw a total of roughly 450,000 British soldiers killed which is roughly 25% casualties over 140 days. The Fists suffered over TWICE as much casualties (proportionately) and possibly even more (if they walked into the iron cage with more than 15,000 marines) over a period of 27 days.

As much as I would like to apply real life casualty figures to 40k, its pointless to do that. The numbers involved in these things and lost in the battles are often arbitrary, or chosen because big numbers sound better.

I dunno if this is something unique to that universe, or a actual military convention but I know that in battletech, in various sourcebooks etc, if a unit takes 60% casualties in a battle (I'm talking the fluff not the table top) assuming this is an actual thing then, strategicly speaking the Imperial fists where destroyed in that conflict.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
As much as I would like to apply real life casualty figures to 40k, its pointless to do that. The numbers involved in these things and lost in the battles are often arbitrary, or chosen because big numbers sound better.

True, but that was in response to a poster who was making the claim that 6,000 surviving Fists means that their defeat at the Iron Cage wasn't that bad.

BrianDavion wrote:
I dunno if this is something unique to that universe, or a actual military convention but I know that in battletech, in various sourcebooks etc, if a unit takes 60% casualties in a battle (I'm talking the fluff not the table top) assuming this is an actual thing then, strategicly speaking the Imperial fists where destroyed in that conflict.

Yeah but "destroyed" from a military readiness standpoint is different than "destroyed" as in wiped out to a man. They are two different things. Technically, the Imperial Fists weren't destroyed because they adopted the codex astartes immediately after and had more then enough men to form a full chapter, which would put them back at operational readiness.

I will give the Fists this... they survived a situation that was meant to kill them all. The hung in there and fought like bastards and survived against all odds. But, equally lets call a spade a spade... Perturabo bested Dorn in that battle. He completely manipulated Dorn's emotional state and goaded him into a strategic blunder which was then exacerbated by Dorn's stubbornness and refusal to retreat. It very nearly cost Dorn his life along with the lives of the remaining Imperial Fists. Who the more brilliant strategist between the two is as irrelevant as the fact that Napoleon was a better General than his opposition at Waterloo... he still lost. And I don't buy that garbage about Dorn meaning to lose or meaning to get his legion decimated by walking into the Iron Cage, it is objectively idiotic writing and an attempt to placate Fist fanboys.

Objectively idiotic or not that's the canon. 40k is full of it. Like the current lore on the Emperor fighting Horus.

It seems as more likely to me Dorn walked into a trap to attempt to address survivors guilt. It's not so much that he did it to convince his legion to accept the codex, but that in the aftermath he had a "ohh my god, what did I almost do? Maybe there's some wisdom in this codex thing!"

BrianDavion wrote:
It seems as more likely to me Dorn walked into a trap to attempt to address survivors guilt...

Sure, if you want to spin it like that, fine. Perturabo still took advantage of it.

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It seems as more likely to me Dorn walked into a trap to attempt to address survivors guilt...

Sure, if you want to spin it like that, fine. Perturabo still took advantage of it.

absolutely, Perty won that fight. I won't deny it, nor will most people. they would however argue it's a hard thing to gauge how they'd normally do vs one another as Dorn wasn't in his right mind. I think the big question is, "Did Dorn ever really recover, or did he continue to basicly push to get killed?" It makes his fate, IMHO much more intreasting, if he continued trying to find ways to get HIMSELF killed`

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It seems as more likely to me Dorn walked into a trap to attempt to address survivors guilt...

Sure, if you want to spin it like that, fine. Perturabo still took advantage of it.

absolutely, Perty won that fight. I won't deny it, nor will most people. they would however argue it's a hard thing to gauge how they'd normally do vs one another as Dorn wasn't in his right mind. I think the big question is, "Did Dorn ever really recover, or did he continue to basicly push to get killed?" It makes his fate, IMHO much more intreasting, if he continued trying to find ways to get HIMSELF killed`

It would explain how basic Chaos Marines killed him if he wanted them to considering the sheer badassery of Primarchs at fighting. Except Lorgar.

pm713 wrote:
...It would explain how basic Chaos Marines killed him if he wanted them to considering the sheer badassery of Primarchs at fighting. Except Lorgar.

Except Lorgar got pretty badass when he turned to chaos to the point that even Angron remarked about his improved combat skills.

I thought Dorn ended up getting swamped by dozens of CSM in close quarters? All it takes is for one lucky blow to end it and Dorn wasn't known for being the best duelist. I don't understand how you cannot imagine a group of regular marines overwhelming a primarch in a CQC situation when the likes of Sigismund and Loken exist... not all standard marines are mooks.

over all I like the idea Dorn was seeking death to the point he got himself into a situation he shouldn;t have. sure anyone can be swarmmed by large numbers of lesser people. but Dorn shouldn't have got himself in such a position. if he's effectively trying to get himself killed cause survivor's guilt, it makes it make some more sense and IMHO makes him a more tragic character

Y'all are talking about things that have little to do with 1 on 1 combat.

Pert wins. Handily.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Y'all are talking about things that have little to do with 1 on 1 combat.

Pert wins. Handily.

prove it.

Seriously, we keep hearing that Dorn supposidvly sucked at close combat, but I've seen little real evidance for that, he's not talked about as being one of the greats, but nor is Perty

cody.d. wrote:
It would be like saying the Lion was a better fighter because he sucker punched Wolfboy after he stopped fighting and laughed at the ridiculousness of their original argument.

Sadly Perty and Lord Adorable have never had a proper fight either of them have been prepared for. In addition, it's like any comic book fight. The one who wins is who the author wants to win.

But my money is on Bou.

Lion is a better fighter. Russ threw the first sucker punch. Lion threw the last. Difference is only one got knocked out. Lion also completley destroys Kurze 2 out of 3 times and would have have done so another time if guilliman wasnt with him during the 2v1. Because the Lion was constantly blocking hits ment for Guilliman, he was more of a handicap than a help and resulted in Kurze escaping. Kurze was also regarded as one of the better fighters amongst the primarchs

BrianDavion wrote:
Seriously, we keep hearing that Dorn supposidvly sucked at close combat, but I've seen little real evidance for that, he's not talked about as being one of the greats, but nor is Perty

It is not that Dorn SUCKED in close combat, merely that aside from his fight with Alpharius he was just never seen doing it or training for it. Alpharius was also not known for his skill in dueling either. Whereas Perturabo went toe to toe with daemon Fulgrim and smacked him around. For reference daemon Fulgrim killed Ferrus Manus and almost killed Guilliman so that makes Perturabo better than or equal to two primarchs by default and probably more.

I wouldn't compare Perturabo with the likes of Angron, Kurze, or Lion, but he is definitely at least middle of the pack when it comes to personal 1v1 combat.

BrianDavion wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Y'all are talking about things that have little to do with 1 on 1 combat.

Pert wins. Handily.

prove it.

Seriously, we keep hearing that Dorn supposidvly sucked at close combat, but I've seen little real evidance for that, he's not talked about as being one of the greats, but nor is Perty

I mean, how can you prove anything like that? For what it is worth, Perturabo with forgebreaker in 30k stomps Dorn and only really can't kill Russ and Horus, with coin flips for a couple others. Represented in the fluff by whomping Fulgrim, as mentioned earlier

BrianDavion wrote:

prove it.

Seriously, we keep hearing that Dorn supposidvly sucked at close combat, but I've seen little real evidance for that, he's not talked about as being one of the greats, but nor is Perty

In Angel Exterminatus, Fulgrim muses that Perturabo is very strong, perhaps the strongest of all his brothers. While not true IMO, one of the premiere duelist Primarchs speaking well of Perturabo's might holds some water.

What does Dorn have? His only win against a Primarch is against the midget of the group which he barely won, Curze nearly killed him with his bare hands, and he even happens to be one of the single worst duelists of the Primarchs on the tabletop.

BrianDavion wrote:

w1zard wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
It seems as more likely to me Dorn walked into a trap to attempt to address survivors guilt...

Sure, if you want to spin it like that, fine. Perturabo still took advantage of it.

absolutely, Perty won that fight. I won't deny it, nor will most people. they would however argue it's a hard thing to gauge how they'd normally do vs one another as Dorn wasn't in his right mind. I think the big question is, "Did Dorn ever really recover, or did he continue to basicly push to get killed?" It makes his fate, IMHO much more intreasting, if he continued trying to find ways to get HIMSELF killed`

I don't think Perty won that fight in any meaningful sense. . Perty wanted Dorn broken and dead.

Either

(a)Dorn was a broken man nuts with grief, who may have known full well it was a trap ,wanted to die, Roboute convinced him to live

(b)Dorn had a clear head and achieved the outcome he wanted- using Perts trap as a painglove to purge his legion.

Either way he emerged stronger as a person from the Cage, with enough marines to forge 6 chapters (that we know of) in the second founding, one of which was Sigismund's legion. More successors than any of the Isstvaan survivor legions managed, more than the Wolves, more than the Scars (including successors that we know of).

This is after casualties taken bearing the brunt of the battle of Terra and doubtless inflicting disproportionate casualties on the traitors there and after the fists had successfully razed the part of the Iron Warriors who fortified Olympia and its environs Not a single IW escaped that battle and it took 10 years to do- indicating a significant portion of the legion had to be killed and rooted out.

The official kill tally for the iron warriors at the cage is 400 fists. Until it is revised and covered in depth, that is pathetic. We can assume that the fists lost far more men but

It wasn't enough to affect the battle readiness of the fists
It wasnt enough to demoralise the fists
Dorn lived and had renewed clarity.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Has Dorn ever shown any ability to read other people and take advantage of their psychological weaknesses, though?

The only book I've read where his perspective is even touched upon is Praetorian of Dorn, and that seems to suggest its less a matter of Dorn being bad at it as it is him not having patience for it. When Alpharius tries to play with him by addressing him 'as' three separate marines with different degrees of elaborate armour, Dorn refuses to play along, deciding the first one he saw is Alpharius and addressing him so - to chastise him for his stupid-elaborate family assassination plan that ultimately caused more long-term problems than a quick siege would have, he accuses Alpharius of mistaking confusion for subterfuge. Dorn demonstrates what he means in their final battle in the book: appearing to fall into Alpharius' trap, turning in instead of out to catch a showy spear strike in the shoulder, and carving into Alpharius with Storm's Teeth. He didn't fall for any of Alpharius' clever lures, he came because if he did, Alpharius would appear himself to deliver the killing blow.

We see this elsewhere in hints: when asked if maybe an Astartes Legion could beat his fortress on Terra, he explicitly says 'not if they were lead by Perturabo.' At the council of Nikea, he's the only one to argue that Librarians should be allowed but Magnus should be censured anyway. When he returns from his revenge tour to find Guiliman splitting up the Legions he accuses him of betraying their father's will to feed his own ego. People see this as a long-standing characterization of Dorn being blunt and ill-equipped with the social nicities, but interpreted through what we see of him in Praetorian and he comes to focus as a very different person: one who very easily identifies his brothers differences and is very critical of them, often to the point of cruelty.

If he and Perty were to fight, Dorn would definitely want to turn his brother's insecurities to his advantage: approach with confidence, appear to have it crumble as he takes a beating, then drive in a killing blow when Perty starts to gloat. That's what I see as his endgame, anyway; everything else depends largely on when and what circumstances surround the fight - Perty, as stated before, goes all out all the time with his best armour and weapons, whereas Dorn is more likely of the two to change up his gear depending on what he expects to fight. This is compounded by the fact that for a lot of his post-Heresy life, Dorn seems to be trying to commit suicide by heretic.

That's interesting. Seems like Dorn's real strength is actually his ability to identify the flaws in things. Flaws of character, flaws in fortifications, flaws in plans, and of course the flaws in himself...

Again, the only time Perturabo and Dorn actually fought each other, Perturabo came up on top.

The only excuse Dorn fanboys have is that "he totally meant to lose". Please, stop. Dorn lost against Perturabo in the cage regardless of questions about "fairness" and he was completely wrong about Perturbo not being able to destroy his fortifications on Terra.

I'm not saying Dorn was a bad primarch, or even a bad strategist, merely that he was not infallible and that a lot of his blunt "honest opinions" were actually wrong. In fact, he was by all accounts a brilliant strategist but also arrogant, stubborn, self-important, honest to a fault, and had a very low opinion of people who didn't meet his expectations (pretty much anyone who was not the emperor or himself).

w1zard wrote:
Again, the only time Perturabo and Dorn actually fought each other, Perturabo came up on top.

The only excuse Dorn fanboys have is that "he totally meant to lose". Please, stop. Dorn lost against Perturabo in the cage regardless of questions about "fairness" and he was completely wrong about Perturbo not being able to destroy his fortifications on Terra.

Didn't lose. Iron Warriors were broken as a legion. The Fists lost more men, but they could replace those, because they weren't filthy traitors living in hell with no supply lines.
Olympia was destroyed preceding this battle- the IW had to self destruct their own fortress to deny it to the Fists. The Imperial Palace was not breached.

Lexicanum wrote:Under Perturabo's command, a combined assault was launched that finally saw a traitor breakthrough. Perturabo combined an underground assault in tunneler drills with a pinpoint Chaos titan Macrocannon bombardment. The walls of the Emperor's Palace finally broke, unleashing a flood of traitors into the inner courtyards of the Palace. A massive labyrinth of hallways, complexes, courtyards, and buildings, fighting in the outer palace was room-to-room and saw heavy casualties inflicted on the Traitors. Moreover, the inner sanctum of the palace had been heavily reinforced and in the enclosed spaces Traitor titans and heavy war engines became easy prey for the well-prepared loyalists. The Adeptus Custodes made a fierce counterattack at the inner gardens of such brutal efficiency that none of the traitor horde could initially stand against them. However in the end, the Titans of the Legio Mortis proved decisive in a traitor breakthrough. In addition traitor numbers were too great and even the Custodes were overwhelmed. After inflicting horrendous casualties on the traitor forces, so much so that the Chaos Titans could no longer continue to advance, the Custodes would fall back to the final defensive line around the Imperial Palace, the Eternity Gate, manned by the Blood Angels and their Primarch Sanguinius. Perturabo and his Iron Warriors thought that their job had been done, and the Primarch left the battle for the Inner Palace to instead direct a siege against the Imperial Fists Fortress Monastery nearby.

Hilariously, if Pert had stayed to fight instead of pursuing his vendetta, they might have broken through the Eternity gate and bagged the Emperor. Instead, the traitors did not breach the gate, and had to flee or be destroyed to a man by the Imperial Reinforcements- Wolves, Ultras, possibly a few loyalist Dark Angels.

Despite objections by Rogal Dorn, the Emperor decided to willingly fall into Horus' trap knowing all too well what awaited him.

Like Father, like best son. Rogal was taught firsthand that if you are willing to sacrifice everything, you can achieve lasting victory.

After three weeks and six days, Ultramarines intervened, driving off the Iron Warriors. Unable to defeat both Legions combined, Perturabo concentrated his forces on denying the Imperial Fists withdraw and disrupting their ability to collect their dead and wounded battle-brothers, of which 400 were never recovered.

4 weeks in Perturabos 'trap', without resupply, inflicting heavy losses on their enemy. All Pert got from this was 400 fists geneseed. This cannot have been enough to replace the men he lost- whose bodies were left behind in the ruins of the eternal fortress. Meanwhile, logic dictates that Dorn recovered the rest of the bodies- so 1 to 2 new spacemarines for every one that fell.

The Iron Warriors escaped and in exchange for forfeiting the captured Loyalist gene-seed to the Gods of Chaos, Perturabo was raised to Daemon Princehood.

Escaped their own trap. I can only imagine how that conversation went with the Chaos gods.
"Yessss, bring us the head of the Emperor's Champion, and aksssept your assssscencion!"
"Well, we didn't get him and had to flee for our lives. But look- 400 fist corpses!"
"They lossst more men than that to warp accidentssss during the crusade! I thought you said you won? "
"I totally won. I outsmarted him by not facing him in combat, at all. I'm giving you the geneseed as a sacrifice!"
"Geneseed are not skullssss. What am I going to do with fleshy organs? Why didn't you use them to make more marinesss?."
"You gave Fulgrim daemonhood for dicking me around on an Eldar would with a stone."
"Classic! As I recall, you tried to stop him too..."

I'm not saying Dorn was a bad primarch, or even a bad strategist, merely that he was not infallible and that a lot of his blunt "honest opinions" were actually wrong. In fact, he was by all accounts a brilliant strategist but also arrogant, stubborn, self-important, honest to a fault, and had a very low opinion of people who didn't meet his expectations (pretty much anyone who was not the emperor or himself).

Dorn wasn't infallible, that's true. He was loyal to the Emperor and his brothers and didn't see the darkness and weakness in their souls. He could have never imagined that Kurze would raise arms against him. He was a quick learner though, as bisected Alpharius learned.

Smartest thing Perturabo ever did was to not fight Dorn.

Only a Fist fanboy could see losing the majority of their legion and having to be saved by another legion as a "victory". Yes, the Iron Warriors had to withdraw, but you notice was because the Ultramarines showed up, not because of anything Dorn did... Perturabo was toying with Dorn and making him and his men suffer until that point because he was enjoying it too much. Perturabo's biggest flaw was his personal vendetta against Dorn not allowing him to "seal the deal" so to speak.

Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Both parties are fanboys. But only one of them is right. Pert would splat dorn. You cannot argue this fact in good faith. Demon Primarch > Primarch in terms of power. That alone would seal the deal.

Is the argument Dorn vs Daemon Pert or Dorn vs Pert?

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Nah, pointing out when the other side is stretching the facts to a ludicrous degree doesn't mean I'm a fanboy in the opposite direction. It means I'm calling a load of BS what it is.

Not when you keep relying on "pointing it out" as your primary defense.

w1zard wrote:
Only a Fist fanboy could see losing the majority of their legion [citation needed]and having to be saved by another legion as a "victory". Yes, the Iron Warriors had to withdraw, but you notice was because the Ultramarines showed up, not because of anything Dorn did... Perturabo was toying with Dorn and making him and his men suffer until that point because he was enjoying it too much. Perturabo's biggest flaw was his personal vendetta against Dorn not allowing him to "seal the deal" so to speak.

Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

Pert allowed his personal vendetta to get in the way of lasting success (Primarch kill, legion destruction, clean escape). For the second time. Did Dorn expect this, knowing Perturabo?
He failed to anticipate the largest Imperial faction intervening in his sadistic petty nonsense. Did Dorn know this would happen, knowing Roboute?
He was forced to withdraw from his own trap.

The alternative to attacking the Eternal fortress unsupported gave the Iron Warriors time to withdraw.

Roboute's plan was to arrive with all available force in time- they could have destroyed the world from orbit if any Iron Warriors remained. This plan preserved imperial strength at the expense of allowing traitors escape. It was the conservative play, but would offer the least opportunity for Primarch kill or lasting damage to a traitor legion.

Dorn had given them no quarter in Olympia, this was their last real space fastness (that we know of) and the last opportunity to bring them to battle en masse. Dorn also knew that if he gave Pert the opportunity to kill him, Pert would not withdraw before Roboute could rally enough force.

 =Angel= wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Only a Fist fanboy could see losing the majority of their legion [citation needed]and having to be saved by another legion as a "victory". Yes, the Iron Warriors had to withdraw, but you notice was because the Ultramarines showed up, not because of anything Dorn did... Perturabo was toying with Dorn and making him and his men suffer until that point because he was enjoying it too much. Perturabo's biggest flaw was his personal vendetta against Dorn not allowing him to "seal the deal" so to speak.

Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

Pert allowed his personal vendetta to get in the way of lasting success (Primarch kill, legion destruction, clean escape). For the second time. Did Dorn expect this, knowing Perturabo?
He failed to anticipate the largest Imperial faction intervening in his sadistic petty nonsense. Did Dorn know this would happen, knowing Roboute?
He was forced to withdraw from his own trap.

The alternative to attacking the Eternal fortress unsupported gave the Iron Warriors time to withdraw.

Roboute's plan was to arrive with all available force in time- they could have destroyed the world from orbit if any Iron Warriors remained. This plan preserved imperial strength at the expense of allowing traitors escape. It was the conservative play, but would offer the least opportunity for Primarch kill or lasting damage to a traitor legion.

Dorn had given them no quarter in Olympia, this was their last real space fastness (that we know of) and the last opportunity to bring them to battle en masse. Dorn also knew that if he gave Pert the opportunity to kill him, Pert would not withdraw before Roboute could rally enough force.

seems logical to meand is certainly the way I'd write it if I wanted to write the story without it turning into a (painful to read) emofest.

 =Angel= wrote:
Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

We know almost the entire legion went into the cage along with Dorn because the Index astartes I and II both agree on this. What this number is, we have no idea, but the nominal strength of the Imperial Fists was around ~100,000... although the siege of Terra and the scourging probably reduced that number significantly.

As for the number of remaining Fists at the end of the Iron Cage:
"What remained of the Imperial Fists was a hardened, veteran force willing and able to comply with the Codex Astartes... ...The Legion was then split into at least five Chapters, including the Crimson Fists, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, and Excoriators."
-Index Astartes II

These were the only second founding chapters formed by the Fists. If all were codex compliant (which they seemed to be at least initially) and including the numbers of the Fists that stayed with the original legion, there seemed to be about 5,000-6,000 Fists left.

So... anywhere from 15,000-60,000 went in, and only 6,000 MAX came out alive.

Table wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Both parties are fanboys. But only one of them is right. Pert would splat dorn. You cannot argue this fact in good faith. Demon Primarch > Primarch in terms of power. That alone would seal the deal.

Might need to define Demon Primarch there. Corax beat Demon Lorgar easily and that was after Lorgar stopped being the worst Primarch.

Table wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Just gonna point out that the "Only a Fanboy..." argument doenst lend you (or anyone that uses it) any credibility in their argument, instead it paints you as a fanboy in the opposite direction, who's view is completely based in Bias, no matter how much of a point you might have.

Both parties are fanboys. But only one of them is right. Pert would splat dorn. You cannot argue this fact in good faith. Demon Primarch > Primarch in terms of power. That alone would seal the deal.

Except Primarch Perty kicked Deamon Angrons Arse, power is nothing if you cant use it properly.

w1zard wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Can you list a source that says the fists lost the majority of their legion at the eternal fortress?

These were the only second founding chapters formed by the Fists. If all were codex compliant (which they seemed to be at least initially) and including the numbers of the Fists that stayed with the original legion, there seemed to be about 5,000-6,000 Fists left.

So... anywhere from 15,000-60,000 went in, and only 6,000 MAX came out alive.

The first issue with that is the Ultras only have 16 2nd founding chapters we know of, they would have had more dudes than the Fists even before the Eternal fortress Numbers on successors are deliberately vague so you can insert your chapter. If the Ultras were only 16K, the Fists didn't lose a majority.

The second is that it assumes the Black Templars started codex compliant and built their numbers. The templars were the 'chapter' for the marines who wanted to remain a crusading legion from the outset.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:"He was, after all, the one guy who said 'Sure, cool, this Chapter idea is brilliant. But mine will be six times the size of everyone else's, just because I say so. Later, Terrans.'"

It also assumes the others were ALL codex compliant, which is a far more reasonable assumption, but we don't know that because we don't know exactly how many there were. A lowball estimate would be that the Templars and other Fists chapters brought the total number of Dorn's sons to 10K+, after the cage. Its a good time to form chapters as there's plenty of spare geneseed to go around. If less than 20k+ went in, they didn't lose a majority.

The third issue is we don't know the numbers of the legion going in. As you mention, they started the heresy at maybe 100k and took heavy casualties fighting titans on mars, in the battle of phall and in the solar war and the scouring thereafter.

The Perturabo apologists are trying to make casualties suffered into some kind of victory for the Iron Warriors. GW's numbers are absolutely all over the place at the best of times - when the background was initially written the legions were much smaller. Further, the theme of 40k is that you sacrifice to win, and the Iron Warriors didn't.

Is this a 30k or 40k question? Because in 40k I'm pretty sure any daemon primarch can beat any non-daemon primarch more or less by default 1 on 1.

In 30k, it would probably be a lot closer.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Is this a 30k or 40k question? Because in 40k I'm pretty sure any daemon primarch can beat any non-daemon primarch more or less by default 1 on 1.

Not so. After the Scouring, Corax chased the Traitors into the EoT and kerb-stomped Daemon-Lorgar so hard he ran away through a warp portal and locked himself in a room for 9000 years. This was after Lorgar's ascension so daemonhood is not a guarantee of victory, even in a 1-on-1 duel. Mind you, Corax implied he had found a non-chaotic way to "level-up". He certainly had some funky new abilities such as transforming into a murder of crows.

 Karhedron wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Is this a 30k or 40k question? Because in 40k I'm pretty sure any daemon primarch can beat any non-daemon primarch more or less by default 1 on 1.

Not so. After the Scouring, Corax chased the Traitors into the EoT and kerb-stomped Daemon-Lorgar so hard he ran away through a warp portal and locked himself in a room for 9000 years. This was after Lorgar's ascension so daemonhood is not a guarantee of victory, even in a 1-on-1 duel. Mind you, Corax implied he had found a non-chaotic way to "level-up". He certainly had some funky new abilities such as transforming into a murder of crows.

That's a cool story, but not as cool as transforming into a murder of Alpha Legionnaires.

Even as an Imperial Fists player, I gotta agree that Dorn is kind of a chump regarding combat.

Dorn was a good tactician though and only bested by Horus in the number of liberated worlds (according to Horus Rising Novel).

 =Angel= wrote:
A lowball estimate would be that the Templars and other Fists chapters brought the total number of Dorn's sons to 10K+, after the cage. Its a good time to form chapters as there's plenty of spare geneseed to go around. If less than 20k+ went in, they didn't lose a majority.

The third issue is we don't know the numbers of the legion going in. As you mention, they started the heresy at maybe 100k and took heavy casualties fighting titans on mars, in the battle of phall and in the solar war and the scouring thereafter.

Even in an absurdly biased best-case scenario, where the Black Templars actually had 4K marines and weren't codex compliant + there are a few other Imperial Fist second founding chapters we don't know about... it means that there were roughly 12,000 survivors of the iron cage. Assuming an extremely lowball estimate of 16,000 Fists going into the cage, that is still 25% death rate, which is still absolutely atrocious casualties. I still can't see how anyone can claim that as a "Fist victory", especially since the Iron Warriors suffered far fewer casualties and basically lost nothing of strategic worth from the engagement.

 =Angel= wrote:
Further, the theme of 40k is that you sacrifice to win, and the Iron Warriors didn't.

I don't even know what you mean here or why it is remotely relevant to what we are talking about.

w1zard wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
A lowball estimate would be that the Templars and other Fists chapters brought the total number of Dorn's sons to 10K+, after the cage. Its a good time to form chapters as there's plenty of spare geneseed to go around. If less than 20k+ went in, they didn't lose a majority.

The third issue is we don't know the numbers of the legion going in. As you mention, they started the heresy at maybe 100k and took heavy casualties fighting titans on mars, in the battle of phall and in the solar war and the scouring thereafter.

Even in an absurdly biased best-case scenario, where the Black Templars actually had 4K marines and weren't codex compliant + there are a few other Imperial Fist second founding chapters we don't know about... it means that there were roughly 12,000 survivors of the iron cage. Assuming an extremely lowball estimate of 16,000 Fists going into the cage, that is still 25% death rate, which is still absolutely atrocious casualties. I still can't see how anyone can claim that as a "Fist victory", especially since the Iron Warriors suffered far fewer casualties and basically lost nothing of strategic worth from the engagement.

 =Angel= wrote:
Further, the theme of 40k is that you sacrifice to win, and the Iron Warriors didn't.

I don't even know what you mean here or why it is remotely relevant to what we are talking about.

My point is that victory is not a numbers game in 40k. In many cases the stakes are high enough that 100% casualties are acceptable losses for the force involved- as long as the warp portal is sealed, or the device is activated or the ritual is broken. The Imperium don't get to declare victory in Armageddon because more Orks died than men. The Iron Warriors didn't get to declare victory at Hydra Cordatus because they killed a bunch of guardmen. Objectives must be achieved.

The Invaders Space Marines took 70% casualties destroying a craftworld and in the subsequent retaliation from Alaitoc, losing their fortress monastery in the process. The Highlords can poop out another chapter called 'the Invaders 2, Successor Bugaloo' tomorrow, but the Eldar aren't getting any more craftworlds. In the same way, the Imperium/Chaos isn't getting any new primarchs.

Killing a Primarch can only be achieved through sacrificing men and risk of failure. The threat of a traitor legion having a realspace stronghold is another. It's clear that Dorn would have sacrificed himself and all his sons to kill Pert and Pert would have sacrificed all his sons to not die. Dorns objective militarily was to remove the IW from imperial space, preferably in bodybags/Iron cages. That's why when the Iron Warriors were driven from realspace- it was an Imperial victory. The heavy casualties turned it into more of a pyrrhic victory- the best kind of 40k victory.

Incidently the first book of Siege of Terra confirms that Dorn's stragety from the start was to delay delay delay until Gulliman could arrive so... given his stragety worked..

The Emperor of Mankind wrote:"Poor, brave Malcador the Hero. He reserved a fragment of his strength for me. It gives me little time to pass final orders to you. If you do as I ask then I shall not wholly die, my spirit at least will survive. My injuries are severe, more so than I had hoped but less than I feared. My psychic powers will return to me in time but my body will never heal. I shall never walk amongst you again. I am now bound to this machine for all time. My faithful bodyguard and attendants know what is required. You must do as they request!

"Dorn and Jaghatai, you have much work to do. Though the head of the serpent has been destroyed its coils still choke the safety of Mankind. You and your loyal brothers must fight on. Cleanse the taint of treachery from our stars. Never again must we allow the Ruinous Powers of Chaos to have such a chance. Now all of you go! You know your duties. Execute them well. The universe has many horrors yet to throw at us. This is not the end of our struggle. This is just the beginning of our crusade to save Humanity. Be faithful! Be strong! Be vigilant!"

A final point of the cage. Dorn was following direct instructions from the Emperor, which Guilliman did not receive. The Scourging of the Imperium effectively ended with the implementation of the Codex Astartes, breakdown into chapters- but the Iron Warriors still had a real-space fastness.The Black Templars effectively continue the crusade where other chapters have consolidated.

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... Perturabo is an EXTREMELY flawed man. Imagine not being able to defeat your rival completely because you hate him so much that you were too busy trying to make him suffer...

But IMO Dorn is just as flawed, and for some reason a lot of people seem to think he was the golden boy when he really wasn't. He was arrogant, stubborn (beyond even Perturabo), honest to a fault (which contrary to what people like to think is NOT a good thing), and not very nice to pretty much anyone who wasn't the emperor. He also had an inflated sense of his own abilities and self-importance among the primarchs because he was given the job of fortifying Terra (Malcador roasts him constantly about this).

And yet Dorn for all his faults was not close to the petulant diva pretending to be a martyr that Perturabo turned out to be.

Perturabo outclasses Dorn in siege skill and raw intelligence yet if given the choice between working with Dorn or Perturabo i would pick Dorn Perturabo for all his skill and might never grew beyond the petulant man child he was on Olympia.

Which i suspect is the reason that the Emperor picked Dorn over Perturabo to fortify Terra .

Perturabo's flaws are just not worth the effort when there is someone else who is almost as skilled a siegemaster who is not a petulant man child

I personally voted Perturabo in a one versus one combat- he has a small arsenal on him and able to beat Daemon Angron in melee after getting weakened from the Angel Exterminatus event. Granted I don’t think it’s an automatic win but I’d put my money on ‘ol Perty. If the Black Templar’s are any indication then Dorn could well be an extremely gifted fighter and he does have Alpharius under his belt for victories, but that required help if I remember correctly.

The guy who got the credit vs the guy who did the work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did'nt Dorn also get beat to within an inch of his life by Curze. This vs a Primarch who could outfight both Angron and Fulgrim.

Perturabo is like the Siege expertise of Dorn with the Technical and artisanal hability of Ferrus Manu all of those combined in a toxic package of overvaluation. And I love him for that.

I wouldn't say it would be a easy fight because no fight between two primarchs would be, no matter what most people says. The strongest and the weaker primarch were enough close in skill, power and/or special habilities that everybody would have a fair chance agaisnt another, depending more in context than anything else.

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

 Galas wrote:
Perturabo is like the Siege expertise of Dorn with the Technical and artisanal hability of Ferrus Manu all of those combined in a toxic package of overvaluation. And I love him for that.

I wouldn't say it would be a easy fight because no fight between two primarchs would be, no matter what most people says. The strongest and the weaker primarch were enough close in skill, power and/or special habilities that everybody would have a fair chance agaisnt another, depending more in context than anything else.

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

Petulant manchild




{Calliphone went on. 'For a long time, I thought you a fool to follow the Emperor. After all, he is a tyrant like all the rest. Look what he has done to you, I thought. He has brutalised you, and your wars have brutalised your home. But the truth is, brother, I have followed your campaigns carefully, and I noticed a pattern that disturbed and then alarmed me. Always you do things the most difficult way, and in the most painful manner. You cultivate a martyr's complex, lurching from man to man, holding out your bleeding wrists so they might see how you hurt yourself. You brood in the shadows when all you want to do is scream 'Look at me!' You are too arrogant to win people over through effort. [b]You expect people to notice you there in the half-darkness, and point and shout out 'There! There is the great Perturabo! See how he labours without complaint!' [...]

'You came to this court as a precocious child. Your abilities were so prodigious that nobody stopped to look at what you were becoming.' [...] 'Perturabo, this will anger you, but you never truly grew into a man. It is not the Emperor who has driven this world into rebellion. It is not he who has held it back. It is you and your woeful egotism. Let me tell you, my brother, you who affects to despise love so much yet must certainly crave it over all other things, you are the biggest fool I have ever met.[/b]'}

No it was not the emperor or Dorn or anyone else who held Perturabo back it was his own flaws.

Those quotes are absolutely unbiased and 100% objetive.

I mean, Perturabo was a dick and had a big "notice me senpai" complex.
Thats his whole point, like all the chaos primarchs they where heavely flawed by design. Barring Angron, he was clearly a loyalist primarch from the beginning, but as Malcador and the Emperor pointed out, the butcher nails destroyed his future and he was nothing but a broken tool.

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

I haven't been keeping up with the fluff what is this about?

TheOpposition wrote:

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

I haven't been keeping up with the fluff what is this about?

I don't recall the emperor himself admitting this but one of the audio tdrama's about Malcador the sigilite says the emperor intended the heresy all along and that it was engineered by carefully over praising some primarchs well ignoring others (clear allusions to Dorn and Perty) because the emperor forsaw the need to kill off the Astartes eventually and intended to let them destroy themselves.

BrianDavion wrote:

TheOpposition wrote:

But I don't understand why people call Perturabo a petulant man child when the Emperor admited that he was on purpose keeping Perturabo out of the spotlight and making him a bitterd basstard for his own plans of the future heresy.

I haven't been keeping up with the fluff what is this about?

I don't recall the emperor himself admitting this but one of the audio tdrama's about Malcador the sigilite says the emperor intended the heresy all along and that it was engineered by carefully over praising some primarchs well ignoring others (clear allusions to Dorn and Perty) because the emperor forsaw the need to kill off the Astartes eventually and intended to let them destroy themselves.

It happens in First Lord of the Imperium, and yeah pretty much happens as you say. Having said that there is some room for doubt, as he said it to a close friend/subordinate to make her feel better and even started the phrase roughly as: "Would it make you feel better if I told you we planned it?". Personally I think that was the plan as the alternative would be gross oversights and missteps that are laughable given the power level of the Emperor and Malcador (the Emperor I could see not understanding the importance of emotional connections and communication but Malcador??). However it's important to remember Malcador is saying this after the rebellion started, and it would be very easy to spin the events in such a way to build confidence and justify things are going are going roughly as planned to the lower chain, because it would be very bad to say "yeah, we upped and pissed off half the primarchs, my bad .

My take on that is that the Emperor and Malcador planned something like the HH to cull the primarchs and legions that had become unreliable, but that they did not realise a full half would go traitor, and that they never specifically intended any particular primarch to turn.

Which side of the conflict certain primarchs ended up on seemed to come as a genuine surprise to the Emperor. Magnus was clearly not meant to end up a traitor. There's no way his wrecking the Imperial Webway could have been part of the Emperor's plan. Likewise, Jaghatai staying loyal was a surprise (the Emperor pretty much told Malcador to assume Jaghatai had joined Horus).

So I don't agree with the idea that the Emperor deliberately drove certain primarchs to turn traitor. I do think he was probably relieved that he kept Dorn rather than Perturabo, though, and he probably considered Angron and Curze lost causes from fairly early on.

Jaghatai was treated quite similarly to Perturabo, his achievements disregarded and apparently disdained, yet he stayed loyal. I think it comes down to testing their character. Jaghatai passed the test (to the Emperor's surprise), while Perturabo failed.

 Duskweaver wrote:
My take on that is that the Emperor and Malcador planned something like the HH to cull the primarchs and legions that had become unreliable, but that they did not realise a full half would go traitor, and that they never specifically intended any particular primarch to turn.

Which side of the conflict certain primarchs ended up on seemed to come as a genuine surprise to the Emperor. Magnus was clearly not meant to end up a traitor. There's no way his wrecking the Imperial Webway could have been part of the Emperor's plan. Likewise, Jaghatai staying loyal was a surprise (the Emperor pretty much told Malcador to assume Jaghatai had joined Horus).

So I don't agree with the idea that the Emperor deliberately drove certain primarchs to turn traitor. I do think he was probably relieved that he kept Dorn rather than Perturabo, though, and he probably considered Angron and Curze lost causes from fairly early on.

Jaghatai was treated quite similarly to Perturabo, his achievements disregarded and apparently disdained, yet he stayed loyal. I think it comes down to testing their character. Jaghatai passed the test (to the Emperor's surprise), while Perturabo failed.

I'm inclined to agree, it would seem weird to put Horus in charge of effectively all military forces (!?) if they meant for him to go traitor as they could have contained things much better and neater if they really wanted to off him and others. Personally I imagine the likes of Angron would have been purged as there was hardly any love lost between them to begin with, although it raises the question of why even bother saving Angron. For the others I dunno, it would be interesting to get into the mind of the Emperor and see whether any of the Primarchs were meant to survive the Great Crusade and what their role would be, and what he actually thought about each Primarch individually.

well if we go by what Malcador said the idea would be to let the primarchs fight, and then finish off the survivors with the custodes. I think the HH is best viewed as a tragedy brought about by the Hubris of a few men, and I think the biggest act of Hubris was the emperor beliving he could create 20 demi-gods, give them each a perfect army to conquer the stars, and engineer a eventual civil war between them, without it going horrificly wrong.. granted if not for the intervention of chaos (and I don't think one can account for acts of god) it likely would have worked, you'd likely have seen individuals legions go rogue one at a time and get curb stomped

I might not play Iron Warriors, but Perturabo is by far my most favorite primarch. That's who I'm going to go with.

R0bcrt wrote:
it would be interesting to get into the mind of the Emperor and see whether any of the Primarchs were meant to survive the Great Crusade and what their role would be, and what he actually thought about each Primarch individually.

I think the original plan didn't include any civil war / cull at all. The Emperor intended to raise and teach the primarchs himself, almost like super-Custodes. He had personal quarters prepared for all of them in the Palace, a big conference room with twenty seats, and so on. It was the scattering of the primarchs through the galaxy by the Chaos Gods, and their individual upbringings in less than ideal conditions, that screwed that up and made Plan B (an engineered civil war to justify a cull) necessary.

I also think making Horus Warmaster was primarily intended to test the Lion's loyalty. The Lion very clearly expected to be made Warmaster, but didn't have the personal charisma to persuade half his brothers to join him, so his rebellion would have been relatively easy to put down. The thing is, Horus really should have been the safest choice, from the Emperor's PoV, as the one primarch who could be trusted never to rebel. He's the only one the Emperor pretty much did get to raise personally, the way he intended to raise all of them. So he makes Horus Warmaster and sits back to see which of his brothers reject the choice and rebel... and then gets blindsided because the Chaos Gods are one step ahead of him and put all their effort into turning the one primarch who should never have turned.

Again, while I don't think the Emperor intended any particular primarch to turn traitor, I do think the most likely outcome (from his PoV) of making Horus Warmaster would have been a rebellion led by the Lion and consisting of the most flawed and unreliable primarchs and their legions: maybe as few as four legions in total and certainly no more than six. Horus would have crushed the rebellion, and that would have been that. Only the relatively unflawed primarchs and legions would have remained.

TBH I prefer for the Emperor to had planed to purge the Space Marines from the beginning.

Maybe not the Primarchs ,but clearly the Space Marines. They where nothing more than weapons and the Imperium was for men not for super-men.

And for all the "Omg but he called them the angels of death, their perfect creation, how could the Emperor have destroyed the space marines?!"
I'm sure Thunder Warriors were told the same lies.

 Galas wrote:
TBH I prefer for the Emperor to had planed to purge the Space Marines from the beginning.

Maybe not the Primarchs ,but clearly the Space Marines. They where nothing more than weapons and the Imperium was for men not for super-men.

And for all the "Omg but he called them the angels of death, their perfect creation, how could the Emperor have destroyed the space marines?!"
I'm sure Thunder Warriors were told the same lies.

We don't know much for certain about the emperor, he is a man of many contridictions, but what we do know beyond a Shadow of a doubt is that the man appers as we wish him to apper. it stands to reason he lies like a carpet.