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Void__Dragon wrote: He just barely scraped a win against canonically the smallest and physically weakest Primarch in Alpharius, who was also never noted to be a particularly strong duelist at all.

Is it ever actually said Alpharius was the weakest or not as good in combat? I know there are a few who are mostly talked about but I don't recall anything suggesting Alpharius was a poor combatant amongst the Primarchs. It just seems assumed as there were two of them.

w1zard wrote:
But this isn't about the better commander overall, this is about Perturabo vs Dorn, and Perturabo has definitely shown he can beat Dorn on a strategic level, would you not agree?

How the Iron Cage went down had to interpretations.

One says that the Peturabo had a massive advantage but was too cruel to capitalise on it and the Ultramarines rescused the Fists.

The other says the fight going to the end would have led to mututal destruction of the Legions and Primarchs.

Why is everyone so certain the pro-Iron Warrior version is the correct one?

Yeah, I mean, bear in mind.... Dorn won the overwhelming majority of his battles in the war against Peturabo. Like, his dismantling of Peturabo's empire wasn't even a challenge. If he had gone in to the Iron Cage with a goal other than "Cause pain to my legion so they learn that the codex astartes is necessary", he'd have won that battle just as easily.

Peturabo's a more deadly opponent one on one to be sure... but give him time to plan and prepare, and Dorn will fight just as well, if not better.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, I mean, bear in mind.... Dorn won the overwhelming majority of his battles in the war against Peturabo. Like, his dismantling of Peturabo's empire wasn't even a challenge. If he had gone in to the Iron Cage with a goal other than "Cause pain to my legion so they learn that the codex astartes is necessary", he'd have won that battle just as easily.

Peturabo's a more deadly opponent one on one to be sure... but give him time to plan and prepare, and Dorn will fight just as well, if not better.

Plan what? How to swing his hammer better? Malarky. The thread is about who wins one on one in combat. You don't plan close combat in the way you plan a battle. Never mind the fact that Pert is a demon primarch. The ass stomping would be swift and messy. Once more, Dorns ability to plan has ZERO bearing in this thread.

The outcome of this encounter isn't even question nor should it be.

Table wrote:
You don't plan close combat in the way you plan a battle.

The only difference between one on one combat, and a full fledged battle, is the scale.

Ambushes for example can easily be a one on one fight.

 Melissia wrote:
Dorn was a genius amongst geniuses at battle planning and preparation. it's how he utterly dismantled all of the petulant manchild's empire with minimal resistance in the first place, making Perturabo try to design something to challenge him to begin with. All of the Primarchs were good at waging war, sure, but Dorn was still a step above the rest, with few outside of Horus being able to match him.

Dorn dismantled Perturabo's "Iron Empire" this is true, but Perturabo wasn't really there to command the forces of the Iron Empire against Dorn. He was fleeing toward the eye of Terror at the time with the rest of the traitor legions.

Claiming that Dorn is a better strategist because he destroyed Perturabo's empire when he wasn't even there doesn't track. Would be like saying someone is a better fighter than someone else because they went into their house when they weren't home and wrecked all of their stuff.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
One says that the Peturabo had a massive advantage but was too cruel to capitalise on it and the Ultramarines rescused the Fists.

The other says the fight going to the end would have led to mututal destruction of the Legions and Primarchs.

Why is everyone so certain the pro-Iron Warrior version is the correct one?

Because the pro-Iron Warrior's version was the original canonical version, and the "new" version was just a different "take" on the same situation that is a relatively recent development in the lore IIRC. Unless they do a full retcon (which they haven't), I think the older version that has been around for decades holds more weight.

The new "take" doesn't make any sense either... if the Iron Warriors were able to withdraw AFTER the ultramarines showed up, it follows by logic that they could have done so at any time PRIOR to that. If what the Fists say is true and that the battle would have ended with both legions wiped out, that meant that the Iron Warriors meant to MUTUALLY ANNHIALATE the fists... If they were so dead set on that mutual annihilation then why did they even flee at all when the ultramarines showed up? Why not just detonate the whole battleground and kill themselves along with the rest of the fists and who knows how many ultramarines?

IMO the new "take" is a bunch of Fist fanboys trying to explain away how their primarch and legion got their asses kicked by Perturabo and the IW. The Iron Warriors were on the verge of wiping the Fists entirely, and because Perturabo was drawing things out to cause the Fists more suffering it gave time for the ultramarines to come to the rescue. The Iron Warriors at that point withdrew because it wasn't worth suiciding themselves just to kill whatever was left of the Fists, they had been taught their lesson.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
How the Iron Cage went down had to interpretations.

One says that the Peturabo had a massive advantage but was too cruel to capitalise on it and the Ultramarines rescused the Fists.

The other says the fight going to the end would have led to mututal destruction of the Legions and Primarchs.

Why is everyone so certain the pro-Iron Warrior version is the correct one?

Because the original, objective, and canonical telling of the story was the "pro-Iron Warrior version". Perturabo goaded an emotionally-compromised Dorn into a vicious trap that tore his entire Legion to shreds, all for the sake of conquering an empty fortress rigged to blow... then failed to actually score the kill because he was too busy rubbing his hands (and other parts of his anatomy) at the thought of finally beating Dorn. This act of incredibly petty one-upsmanship set the stage for the modern state of both Legions: Dorn was only saved by Guilliman's intervention, which forced him to eat humble pie and accept the Codex Astartes, and Perturabo absconded with enough stolen Imperial Fists gene-seed to buy Medrengard and immortality from the Chaos Gods (and create mongrels like Honsou). That was how it happened, no ifs or buts.

The "other version" is a very recent addition to the setting, and claims that nuh-uh, it totally would have been a draw, and anyway Dorn wanted to lose because he already thought the Codex Astartes was totes awesome, but his S&M glove convinced him that the only way to get his most loyal soldiers to accept it was to lead them like witless pigs to slaughter, so really, who was the real winner here? Most fans aren't particularly well-inclined toward retcons to begin with, but they're even more likely to ignore it when the retcon in question sounds like Rogal Dorn whining on his blog about how he meant to get his ass kicked, it was all a social experiment you guys.

The original version was a neat bit of setting material that showed off Perturabo's bitter and cruel pettiness, exemplified Dorn's stubbornness and pride, demonstrated Guilliman's ambiguous opportunism, satisfactorily explained the acceptance of the Codex Astartes, set the grudge between two Legions in stone, and gave Iron Warriors their only notable "victory" in the Horus Heresy, having spent most of it outside of the main battlezones. The alternate version is a bit of attempted pro-Fists fanfic that results in this:

Rogal Dorn: "I'm bleeding, making me the victor!"
Guilliman: "Please forgive Rogal Dorn. He is an idiot. We have purposefully trained him wrong, as a joke."

 Melissia wrote:
Dorn was a genius amongst geniuses at battle planning and preparation. it's how he utterly dismantled all of the petulant manchild's empire with minimal resistance in the first place, making Perturabo try to design something to challenge him to begin with. All of the Primarchs were good at waging war, sure, but Dorn was still a step above the rest, with few outside of Horus being able to match him.

"Wherever the Iron Warriors fought, they raised great citadels in their wake. Jagged towers mounting heinous weapons of destruction dominated the surrounding terrain, each a monument to Perturabo’s cunning. Fields of trenches and forests of razor wire surrounded the strongholds of the Iron Warriors, such that the loyalists began to dread the bloody assaults needed to destroy them. Even after Horus’ defeat, the Iron Warriors were only driven out of the Imperium’s worlds at a terrible price. The rest of the Legion defended the small empire they had built centred around their home world of Olympia, but there was no refuge from the retribution of the loyalist Legions. The Imperial Fists supported the Ultramarines in a decade-long campaign to liberate the subjugated worlds. They discovered the Iron Warriors to be a barbed hook that, once embedded into a victim, could only be removed with great risk of further injury. The Olympia garrison held out for two years, eventually triggering their missile stockpiles when defeat was unavoidable. They left a blasted wasteland that, like the other Traitor Legion home worlds, was declared perditas."
Codex: Chaos Space Marines, 2019

Dismantled with minimal resistance?

RevlidRas wrote:
Dismantled with minimal resistance?

Exactly, and as stated, the "Iron Empire" was being held together by a token garrison of Iron Warriors, from what I understand Perturabo and the main bulk of the legion were retreating toward the eye of terror and were not present for these battles.

 Melissia wrote:

Table wrote:
You don't plan close combat in the way you plan a battle.

The only difference between one on one combat, and a full fledged battle, is the scale.

Ambushes for example can easily be a one on one fight.

Even in an melee ambush you still have to fight. I cant imagine Dorn 1 hit KOing Pert. That would be asinine at best. Also, what if Pert had time to "plan"? You can only go by what is in canon. And with that in mind the answer is quite clear (so clear I don't know why this thread was created)….Pert would PASTE Dorn one on one. You have one of the most powerful Demon Primarchs vs One of the weakest (in melee combat). Pert is not stupid, not by any metric. He is quite brilliant. Im not sure where you are getting that Dorn can "plan" better. Perhaps link a quote to assuage my ignorance.

We have massive fanboy/girls of both parties in this thread and I can safely say I myself am not unbiased. I am a chaos player and my sympathies lie in that faction. Its why I say we only use what is canon and not head canon and what if's.

He wouldn't have to one hit KO him, but cripple him in the first blow so that his fighting ability is lessened, then use the other preparations he made (terrain, mines, equipment what have you) to make due after that, playing in to Petulant's personality and tricking him in to doing what Dorn wanted until Dorn manages to land the final blow.

You're not really being all that imaginative.

Boxers study film of their opponents, looking for weak spots in their guard, patterns in their attacks.

There is room for planning in 1:1 combat.

Has Dorn ever shown any ability to read other people and take advantage of their psychological weaknesses, though?

 Melissia wrote:
He wouldn't have to one hit KO him, but cripple him in the first blow so that his fighting ability is lessened, then use the other preparations he made (terrain, mines, equipment what have you) to make due after that, playing in to Petulant's personality and tricking him in to doing what Dorn wanted until Dorn manages to land the final blow.

You're not really being all that imaginative.

... and you should read other authors besides John French.

 Duskweaver wrote:
Has Dorn ever shown any ability to read other people and take advantage of their psychological weaknesses, though?

No, however Dorn has never been shown in any sort of enviroment where those skills would or wouldn't come into play. TBH we don't have eneugh info on Dorn's combat skill to make a detirmination eaither way. W edo however, know Dorn's not the WORST combatant of the Primarchs

 Melissia wrote:
He wouldn't have to one hit KO him, but cripple him in the first blow so that his fighting ability is lessened, then use the other preparations he made (terrain, mines, equipment what have you) to make due after that, playing in to Petulant's personality and tricking him in to doing what Dorn wanted until Dorn manages to land the final blow.

You're not really being all that imaginative.

Dorn's grasp of psychology has been repeatedly been shown to be... limited. He's honest, straightforward, uncompromising, and diligent to the point that it becomes a real flaw. He confronts his problems head-on, with skill and brilliance and decisiveness but all the subtlety of a Land Raider. He takes this approach even in the social and political arena, which is why he has the fewest friends and the most enemies among all the Primarchs, traitor and loyalist alike. Even Angron got on with Lorgar. Dorn's blunt, even brutal honesty aggravated his one-sided rivalry with Perturabo, kicked off Konrad Kurze's final spiral into insanity, and pissed off Alpharius something fierce.

If you told me Alpharius or Corax would capitalize on Perturabo's psychological weaknesses, I'd believe you in a second. Kurze, Guilliman, Horus, Magnus, even Leman, sure, I'd believe it. But Dorn? That's not his skill set, and it's not how he operates.

Moreover, it's a bit bizarre to finger Dorn as the one able to provoke Perturabo and trick him into a disadvantageous position, given their only direct conflict went the exact opposite way.

Seeing as I know nothing about the ways of the imperium or anything about these two characters I am just going to say this:


Puertorabo = Sounds like 'portobello' so is a pizza topping.

Rogan Dorn = Sounds like 'Rogan Josh' so is a curry..

I think i like a good curry over a good pizza... So I'm going with the Rogan josh ?

w1zard wrote:

Because the pro-Iron Warrior's version was the original canonical version, and the "new" version was just a different "take" on the same situation that is a relatively recent development in the lore IIRC. Unless they do a full retcon (which they haven't), I think the older version that has been around for decades holds more weight.

The new "take" doesn't make any sense either... if the Iron Warriors were able to withdraw AFTER the ultramarines showed up, it follows by logic that they could have done so at any time PRIOR to that. If what the Fists say is true and that the battle would have ended with both legions wiped out, that meant that the Iron Warriors meant to MUTUALLY ANNHIALATE the fists... If they were so dead set on that mutual annihilation then why did they even flee at all when the ultramarines showed up? Why not just detonate the whole battleground and kill themselves along with the rest of the fists and who knows how many ultramarines?

IMO the new "take" is a bunch of Fist fanboys trying to explain away how their primarch and legion got their asses kicked by Perturabo and the IW. The Iron Warriors were on the verge of wiping the Fists entirely, and because Perturabo was drawing things out to cause the Fists more suffering it gave time for the ultramarines to come to the rescue. The Iron Warriors at that point withdrew because it wasn't worth suiciding themselves just to kill whatever was left of the Fists, they had been taught their lesson.

As far as I know they were both introduced in the Index Astartes articles in a fairly close timespan. It was a nice way of portraying two viewpoints of the same situation; the facts are there but what may have happened if the Ultramarines hadn't intervened is left open. However due to how it's written using the Iron Cage to demonstrate Peturabo's superiority doesn't really work.

It's not that the Iron Warriors couldn't withdraw. It's that putting in the force to destroy the Imperial Fists would grind themselves down as well. Once the Ultramarines interceded destroying the Imperial Fists was no longer a realistic possibility hence nothing to gain by staying.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Except Alpharius...

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It's not that the Iron Warriors couldn't withdraw. It's that putting in the force to destroy the Imperial Fists would grind themselves down as well. Once the Ultramarines interceded destroying the Imperial Fists was no longer a realistic possibility hence nothing to gain by staying.

Except it was stated numerous times that the Iron Warriors had the ability to detonate the fortress and kill everyone inside (themselves included) whenever they wanted... If they were so dead set on "mutual annihilation" with the Fists, then why would a few Ultramarines being thrown into the bargain change their mind?

Also, these two different takes were not introduced "at the same time", the original "pro-iron warriors" version was from earlier chaos codices (years earlier), and other lore books. Read RevlidRas' explanation, he does it better justice than I.

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Except Alpharius...

yeah as I said I don't know why so many people are bashing Dorn's combat ability, IIRC he's the only Loyalist Primarch with a confirmed kill of a primarch (and before someone says Russ I repeat CONFIRMED Kill)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:

 EmpNortonII wrote:
Dorn's probably one of the worst primarch combatants. Not that Pert is one of the best, but c'mon... almost anyone could take Dorn.

Except Alpharius...

yeah as I said I don't know why so many people are bashing Dorn's combat ability, IIRC he's the only Loyalist Primarch with a confirmed kill of a primarch (and before someone says Russ I repeat CONFIRMED Kill)

In fairness most of the times the Loyalists get the chance to kill a Traitor something happens to make it into a "die and kill him or leave and survive" deal. There's been something like 3 times when a Loyalist Primarch could have killed a Traitor one but plot happened.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

As far as I know they were both introduced in the Index Astartes articles in a fairly close timespan. It was a nice way of portraying two viewpoints of the same situation; the facts are there but what may have happened if the Ultramarines hadn't intervened is left open. However due to how it's written using the Iron Cage to demonstrate Peturabo's superiority doesn't really work.

The first time I read the story was in Codex: Chaos Space Marines back in... I want to say the late 90s? So even if that was literally the first time it ever showed up, I'm pretty sure the Iron Warriors "version" came first.

RevlidRas wrote: Dorn's blunt, even brutal honesty aggravated his one-sided rivalry with Perturabo, kicked off Konrad Kurze's final spiral into insanity, and pissed off Alpharius something fierce.

If you told me Alpharius or Corax would capitalize on Perturabo's psychological weaknesses, I'd believe you in a second. Kurze, Guilliman, Horus, Magnus, even Leman, sure, I'd believe it. But Dorn? That's not his skill set, and it's not how he operates.

Moreover, it's a bit bizarre to finger Dorn as the one able to provoke Perturabo and trick him into a disadvantageous position, given their only direct conflict went the exact opposite way.

Surely you mean Perty's one sided Rivalry with Dorn? Dorn could give a rat's arse about what Perty thought of him or their "Rivalry". And it wouldn't really be bizarre to finger Dorn as being able to provoke Perty, as he's already done exactly that, his provoking of Perty set Perty on the war path of proving himself against Dorn. Where as Perty's goading of Dorn was pretty much telling a grieving man "Haha I was there when your dad died." Also everyone pissed on Alpharius, but Alpharius being mad at Dorn didnt stop him from trying to sway him.

w1zard wrote:

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
It's not that the Iron Warriors couldn't withdraw. It's that putting in the force to destroy the Imperial Fists would grind themselves down as well. Once the Ultramarines interceded destroying the Imperial Fists was no longer a realistic possibility hence nothing to gain by staying.

Except it was stated numerous times that the Iron Warriors had the ability to detonate the fortress and kill everyone inside (themselves included) whenever they wanted... If they were so dead set on "mutual annihilation" with the Fists, then why would a few Ultramarines being thrown into the bargain change their mind?

That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

Rather more like Dorn's whole "totally meant to get drawn into that trap and get my own legion nearly killed to a man, no it was completely intentional guys I swear" angle is pretty bullgak.

The Iron Warriors never intended for the cage to be a suicide mission where both legions would be wiped out. They were winning handily, and the only reason that the Fists weren't killed to a man (Dorn included) was because Perturabo was drawing the whole thing out to make Dorn and his men suffer as much as possible (which fits his character entirely). Once the Ultramarines showed up the Iron Warriors had to withdraw because they no longer had the time to finish the Fists off, and it was NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE MISSION.

w1zard wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

Rather more like Dorn's whole "totally meant to get drawn into that trap and get my own legion nearly killed to a man, no it was completely intentional guys I swear" angle is pretty bullgak.

Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

pm713 wrote:
Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... Perturabo is an EXTREMELY flawed man. Imagine not being able to defeat your rival completely because you hate him so much that you were too busy trying to make him suffer...

But IMO Dorn is just as flawed, and for some reason a lot of people seem to think he was the golden boy when he really wasn't. He was arrogant, stubborn (beyond even Perturabo), honest to a fault (which contrary to what people like to think is NOT a good thing), and not very nice to pretty much anyone who wasn't the emperor. He also had an inflated sense of his own abilities and self-importance among the primarchs because he was given the job of fortifying Terra (Malcador roasts him constantly about this).

w1zard wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
That just makes the Iron Warriors sound like they failed twice over. They failed to wipe out Dorn, and then when they had two Primarchs in their sights and could have killed them with their "totally a giant bomb" death trap, those few remaining faltered at the idea of sacrificing their already doomed selves to secure two primarchs.

You've made your Legion sound even more like failures.

Rather more like Dorn's whole "totally meant to get drawn into that trap and get my own legion nearly killed to a man, no it was completely intentional guys I swear" angle is pretty bullgak.

The Iron Warriors never intended for the cage to be a suicide mission where both legions would be wiped out. They were winning handily, and the only reason that the Fists weren't killed to a man (Dorn included) was because Perturabo was drawing the whole thing out to make Dorn and his men suffer as much as possible (which fits his character entirely). Once the Ultramarines showed up the Iron Warriors had to withdraw because they no longer had the time to finish the Fists off, and it was NEVER MEANT TO BE A SUICIDE MISSION.

I'm not saying Dorn's stance inst dumb. But these Tactical Genius' that wanted to wipe out the Imperial Fists didnt just leave a handfull of dudes behind to detonate the cage and kill them right before Bobby G got there? Or as he got there? The whole Legion didnt need to die,but a handful to secure a hated enemy? The Iron Warriors had their chance, and faltered in the face of it. Sure the Fists may have needed the Ultramarines to win, but they still won.

@pm713 thats the truth, they were both dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Maybe just MAYBE they were both being a bunch of idiots.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong... Perturabo is an EXTREMELY flawed man. Imagine not being able to defeat your rival completely because you hate him so much that you were too busy trying to make him suffer...

But IMO Dorn is just as flawed, and for some reason a lot of people seem to think he was the golden boy when he really wasn't. He was arrogant, stubborn (beyond even Perturabo), honest to a fault (which contrary to what people like to think is NOT a good thing), and not very nice to pretty much anyone who wasn't the emperor. He also had an inflated sense of his own abilities and self-importance among the primarchs because he was given the job of fortifying Terra (Malcador roasts him constantly about this).

He does those, but he also comes to realize that he really shouldnt be the one calling the shots. Specifically in MoMK saying he wised Guilliman was there, so he could be in charge.I dont like Dorn because he's perfect, I like Dorn because of all he is, including his faults, he's a more compelling faulted person than Perty, who is just whinny.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
The Iron Warriors had their chance, and faltered in the face of it. Sure the Fists may have needed the Ultramarines to win, but they still won.

Not sure how getting your legion nearly wiped out counts as "winning" but ok...

If you want to consider "we should have been wiped out but were not" somewhat of a small, pyrrhic victory then I guess I can agree with that angle, but I wouldn't call that "winning".

Fine its a draw, because both Legions failed to secure their Primary Objectives, but its a victory because the Ultramarines denied the IW the kill.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Fine its a draw, because both Legions failed to secure their Primary Objectives, but its a victory because the Ultramarines denied the IW the kill.

It was not a draw. The Iron Warriors inflicted disproportionate casualties onto the Fists, and would have wiped them out completely if not for Guilliman. Perturabo took all of the geneseed from the fallen Fists and and gifted it to the chaos gods, in return they elevated him to daemonhood. There is absolutely no way anyone but a Dorn fanboy can look at that as a "draw" let alone "winning".

Except neither of them succeded in obtaining their Primary Objectives.

Its a Pyrric (but moral) Victory for the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines.

And a Moral Victory for the Iron Warriors. Also "All" no, he took the Geneseed from 400 Imperial Fists.

Hence a draw.

Im absolutely not a Dorn fanboy, I like him, I like him alot more than Perty to be sure. But I dont fanboy any of the Primarchs. Nice to see that your own insecurities require you trying to label everything though.