In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

There is no best regiment, each one are specialized, even the famous ones. But if I had to choose, I’d go with Tanith First and Only, there is like a 15 book series about them.

Tallarn are my personal pick. Given my interest in the North African campaigns and the middle east, they're lore is quite refreshing and interesting. It's a shame their infantry aren't produced in plastic.

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

Uhhhh mate Cadia as a WHOLE trains children almost from their birth, they make their way as youths in the Whiteshields before being inducted to the Guard itself. The 8th isn’t the only Cadian regiment that does that.

 Zontarz wrote:

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

Uhhhh mate Cadia as a WHOLE trains children almost from their birth, they make their way as youths in the Whiteshields before being inducted to the Guard itself. The 8th isn’t the only Cadian regiment that does that.

All guardsmen from Fortress World, of which Cadia was the most famous, are trained from birth to become soldiers of the Imperial Guard. I would tend to agree with you that the 8th is probably one of hte best if not the best elite infantry regiment of the Imperial Guard (provided you don't take into account Tempestus Scion Regiment).

There is no "best" regiment... regiments have different specialties depending on the world that they come from, and have veterancy that can change at any given point. Say the Xth Cadian Regiment if full of veterans today, then gets mauled in battle and take 60% casualties in battle the next day. Guess what? That regiment isn't full of veterans anymore... It will either be combined into a scratch company with remnants from other mauled regiments, or reinforced with FUNGS from the homeworld (depending on the regiment and distance from their homeworld).

I will say that Cadian regiments generally have really good quality troopers, mostly because every person on Cadia was a soldier, and they are trained from childhood to do nothing but soldier.

I'm not a fan of GOAT arguments (and IG regiments is too broad a topic for such a debate), but my favorite would have to be the Valhallan 597th.

Putting the right people in the right places, and encouraging them to solve problems with the skillsets they [I]have/[I] rather than the skillsets other people in similar positions use, is a narrative device I'm a huge fan of.

epronovost wrote:

 Zontarz wrote:

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

Uhhhh mate Cadia as a WHOLE trains children almost from their birth, they make their way as youths in the Whiteshields before being inducted to the Guard itself. The 8th isn’t the only Cadian regiment that does that.

All guardsmen from Fortress World, of which Cadia was the most famous, are trained from birth to become soldiers of the Imperial Guard. I would tend to agree with you that the 8th is probably one of hte best if not the best elite infantry regiment of the Imperial Guard (provided you don't take into account Tempestus Scion Regiment).

I would have said Scions as well, however, just saying.m Imperial Guard rather than Astra Militarum, I believe OP is referring to the Departamento Regimentos.

 Apple Peel wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Zontarz wrote:

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

Uhhhh mate Cadia as a WHOLE trains children almost from their birth, they make their way as youths in the Whiteshields before being inducted to the Guard itself. The 8th isn’t the only Cadian regiment that does that.

All guardsmen from Fortress World, of which Cadia was the most famous, are trained from birth to become soldiers of the Imperial Guard. I would tend to agree with you that the 8th is probably one of hte best if not the best elite infantry regiment of the Imperial Guard (provided you don't take into account Tempestus Scion Regiment).

I would have said Scions as well, however, just saying.m Imperial Guard rather than Astra Militarum, I believe OP is referring to the Departamento Regimentos.

Actually kasrkin > then pretty much the rest.
1 vs 1 probably catachan though.

 Zontarz wrote:

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

Uhhhh mate Cadia as a WHOLE trains children almost from their birth, they make their way as youths in the Whiteshields before being inducted to the Guard itself. The 8th isn’t the only Cadian regiment that does that.

I knew that, I just unfortunately neglected to bring that up, apologies.

Don't worry. All guardsmen regiments are equal in the eyes of the Imperium, equally disposable.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Zontarz wrote:

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

Uhhhh mate Cadia as a WHOLE trains children almost from their birth, they make their way as youths in the Whiteshields before being inducted to the Guard itself. The 8th isn’t the only Cadian regiment that does that.

All guardsmen from Fortress World, of which Cadia was the most famous, are trained from birth to become soldiers of the Imperial Guard. I would tend to agree with you that the 8th is probably one of hte best if not the best elite infantry regiment of the Imperial Guard (provided you don't take into account Tempestus Scion Regiment).

I would have said Scions as well, however, just saying.m Imperial Guard rather than Astra Militarum, I believe OP is referring to the Departamento Regimentos.

Actually kasrkin > then pretty much the rest.
1 vs 1 probably catachan though.

Nah, get your whiny planetary shock out of here. The only reason any Militarum Tempestus regiment isn’t being suggested is because it would be like suggesting Militarum Auxillia—not what the question is asking for.

The best regiment is the one I play. 4th Neutran Panzer Division!

The whiney planetary shocktroops, for your information are veteran schola tempestus assult troops and veterans against fighting chaos on cadia. Your 08/15 hogwarts scions are compared to them children with guns.

And more importantly Kasrkin are not auxilia, they are generally part of assult regiments.

Kronstaat IV Worker's Defence Force, 29th Army.

See my native 5+ to hit and tremble.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Worker's Defence Force

Worker's defence force facing a Panzer division.
That reminds me of... uh... something.

 Hawky wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Worker's Defence Force

Worker's defence force facing a Panzer division.
That reminds me of... uh... something.

Niet molotov, Niet Molotov!

Not Online!!! wrote:
The whiney planetary shocktroops, for your information are veteran schola tempestus assult troops and veterans against fighting chaos on cadia. Your 08/15 hogwarts scions are compared to them children with guns.

And more importantly Kasrkin are not auxilia, they are generally part of assult regiments.

Kasrkin are planetary wannabes that will only fight fully for Cadia. And that’s gone.

Tempestus Scions are trained from youth in the Schola Progenium. Only the best of candidates survive the Schola. The victorious survivors then go into the true and proper Schola Tempestus, where their stormtrooper skills are taught and refined. Tempestus Scions have the most dedication of any human, with bodies conditioned to be machines for the Emperor.

Concerning the other thing—Kasrkin May be a part of the Guard, however, Scions are not a part of the Departamento Regimentos IG. They belong to a separate organization of the Astra Militarum—the Militarum Tempestus. This is in the same fashion of Bullgryns and Ratlings are a part of the Militarum Auxillia, not the Departamento Regimentos (normal regiments).

 Hawky wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Worker's Defence Force

Worker's defence force facing a Panzer division.
That reminds me of... uh... something.

#...knock, knock, knocking on the Reichstag's door...#

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The whiney planetary shocktroops, for your information are veteran schola tempestus assult troops and veterans against fighting chaos on cadia. Your 08/15 hogwarts scions are compared to them children with guns.

And more importantly Kasrkin are not auxilia, they are generally part of assult regiments.

Kasrkin are planetary wannabes that will only fight fully for Cadia. And that’s gone.

Tempestus Scions are trained from youth in the Schola Progenium. Only the best of candidates survive the Schola. The victorious survivors then go into the true and proper Schola Tempestus, where their stormtrooper skills are taught and refined. Tempestus Scions have the most dedication of any human, with bodies conditioned to be machines for the Emperor.

Concerning the other thing—Kasrkin May be a part of the Guard, however, Scions are not a part of the Departamento Regimentos IG. They belong to a separate organization of the Astra Militarum—the Militarum Tempestus. This is in the same fashion of Bullgryns and Ratlings are a part of the Militarum Auxillia, not the Departamento Regimentos (normal regiments).

Tempestus Scions might be the best warriors the Schola Progenium might offer but... dude... when you have such silly names...

"I'm Private Potatotus, 2nd Company of 34th Betic Centaurs, Militarum Tempestus"
vs
"I'm Private Brazenballs, 1st Company of the Catachan Ork Hunters, the Imperial Guard!"
Also: "Hey, Private Potatotus. Where are your tanks? I don't see any. Oh, you don't have any? Only those ugly metal boxes? Shame..."

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The whiney planetary shocktroops, for your information are veteran schola tempestus assult troops and veterans against fighting chaos on cadia. Your 08/15 hogwarts scions are compared to them children with guns.

And more importantly Kasrkin are not auxilia, they are generally part of assult regiments.

Kasrkin are planetary wannabes that will only fight fully for Cadia. And that’s gone.

Tempestus Scions are trained from youth in the Schola Progenium. Only the best of candidates survive the Schola. The victorious survivors then go into the true and proper Schola Tempestus, where their stormtrooper skills are taught and refined. Tempestus Scions have the most dedication of any human, with bodies conditioned to be machines for the Emperor.

Concerning the other thing—Kasrkin May be a part of the Guard, however, Scions are not a part of the Departamento Regimentos IG. They belong to a separate organization of the Astra Militarum—the Militarum Tempestus. This is in the same fashion of Bullgryns and Ratlings are a part of the Militarum Auxillia, not the Departamento Regimentos (normal regiments).

You'd find more quality in my AF militia then in your hogwarts sorcerers wannabee, no hopp along abrakadbrus scionius to your mag train line 7 3/4

Hey now. Cod Latin has been a staple of internet pretentiousness since ICQ.

Hawky wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The whiney planetary shocktroops, for your information are veteran schola tempestus assult troops and veterans against fighting chaos on cadia. Your 08/15 hogwarts scions are compared to them children with guns.

And more importantly Kasrkin are not auxilia, they are generally part of assult regiments.

Kasrkin are planetary wannabes that will only fight fully for Cadia. And that’s gone.

Tempestus Scions are trained from youth in the Schola Progenium. Only the best of candidates survive the Schola. The victorious survivors then go into the true and proper Schola Tempestus, where their stormtrooper skills are taught and refined. Tempestus Scions have the most dedication of any human, with bodies conditioned to be machines for the Emperor.

Concerning the other thing—Kasrkin May be a part of the Guard, however, Scions are not a part of the Departamento Regimentos IG. They belong to a separate organization of the Astra Militarum—the Militarum Tempestus. This is in the same fashion of Bullgryns and Ratlings are a part of the Militarum Auxillia, not the Departamento Regimentos (normal regiments).

Tempestus Scions might be the best warriors the Schola Progenium might offer but... dude... when you have such silly names...

"I'm Private Potatotus, 2nd Company of 34th Betic Centaurs, Militarum Tempestus"
vs
"I'm Private Brazenballs, 1st Company of the Catachan Ork Hunters, the Imperial Guard!"
Also: "Hey, Private Potatotus. Where are your tanks? I don't see any. Oh, you don't have any? Only those ugly metal boxes? Shame..."

Tempestus Scions don’t even use the rank of Private. Scions also use the names of heroes of the Imperium when they are renamed. So basically any cool name you want.
Also, Scions are surgical strike commandos. Tanks are too slow.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
The whiney planetary shocktroops, for your information are veteran schola tempestus assult troops and veterans against fighting chaos on cadia. Your 08/15 hogwarts scions are compared to them children with guns.

And more importantly Kasrkin are not auxilia, they are generally part of assult regiments.

Kasrkin are planetary wannabes that will only fight fully for Cadia. And that’s gone.

Tempestus Scions are trained from youth in the Schola Progenium. Only the best of candidates survive the Schola. The victorious survivors then go into the true and proper Schola Tempestus, where their stormtrooper skills are taught and refined. Tempestus Scions have the most dedication of any human, with bodies conditioned to be machines for the Emperor.

Concerning the other thing—Kasrkin May be a part of the Guard, however, Scions are not a part of the Departamento Regimentos IG. They belong to a separate organization of the Astra Militarum—the Militarum Tempestus. This is in the same fashion of Bullgryns and Ratlings are a part of the Militarum Auxillia, not the Departamento Regimentos (normal regiments).

You'd find more quality in my AF militia then in your hogwarts sorcerers wannabee, no hopp along abrakadbrus scionius to your mag train line 7 3/4

Your militia men will run from the jaws of daemons and Xenos, but Scions are already blowing it apart with plasma. Y’all are just jealous that y’all never have the intelligence or training or the balls to put marines to shame.

Tempestus Scion regiments have survived for days after being transported to a crone world of Khorne in the Eye of Terror.

In addition, to assault roles, Scions can also be grenadiers, so Scions are more faceted and skilled than Kasrkin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scions are trusted enough to be sent En mass into the Eye of Terror to scout.

The way I've always seen it is that, comparing the Astra Militarum to the US Military, the Tempestus Scions are the Marines and the Kasrkin are more akin to Army Rangers.

... That doesn't help stop the argument any, does it?

Arcanis161 wrote:
The way I've always seen it is that, comparing the Astra Militarum to the US Military, the Tempestus Scions are the Marines and the Kasrkin are more akin to Army Rangers.

... That doesn't help stop the argument any, does it?

Comparing to the US army is more difficult, but I’ve always felt that Kasrkin would be army rangers and Militarum Tempestus would be Delta Force.

Volpone Bluebloods without question.

Excuse me. Replace prior “Departamento” with “Militarum.”

 Apple Peel wrote:
Your militia men will run from the jaws of daemons and Xenos, but Scions are already blowing it apart with plasma.

That's a strange way of saying "mopping up the survivors of a month-long artillery barrage by a DKoK regiment". And lol, running. The best survivors of torture-Hogwarts get to become commissars so they can remind Krieg regiments that retreat is sometimes, under rare circumstances, an acceptable option. Come back when your HQ can hand out LD buffs to space marines.

PS: DKoK grenadiers > Militarius Trademarkus.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Your militia men will run from the jaws of daemons and Xenos, but Scions are already blowing it apart with plasma.

That's a strange way of saying "mopping up the survivors of a month-long artillery barrage by a DKoK regiment". And lol, running. The best survivors of torture-Hogwarts get to become commissars so they can remind Krieg regiments that retreat is sometimes, under rare circumstances, an acceptable option. Come back when your HQ can hand out LD buffs to space marines.

PS: DKoK grenadiers > Militarius Trademarkus.

Mopping up survivors? Scions led the first strike on the world and opened up a landing zone solo.

Brags about crappy Forge World rules. Wait, where is your codex?

Krieger idiots are terrible. Wow, hur dur, we are so dumb that we waste equipment and manpower. When Commissars have to do anything more than lead the charge and say inspirational crap, then there is a problem in the regiment.

The Schola Progenium churns out more than Commissars and Scions. Sisters of Battle, Ministorum Priests, various Naval Officers, crusaders, etc, are produced by the Schola.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Mopping up survivors? Scions led the first strike on the world and opened up a landing zone solo.

I'm not sure you understand how an invasion works. Militarius Trademarkus squads can't do a damn thing solo because there's like 50 of them in the whole galaxy. They can drop in and kill some stuff, but if someone else doesn't show up to secure the area they'll just get overwhelmed and wiped out. Meanwhile a siege regiment is perfectly content to open a landing zone by deploying outside of the target and shelling an area into rubble. Except they don't really need to make a landing zone, since they can just keep shelling everything into rubble until nothing remains.

Brags about crappy Forge World rules. Wait, where is your codex?

At least we have a separate army list. Your "army" is just a page in someone else's codex, and your "codex" was so awful that one of GW's best decisions in 8th was taking it away.

Krieger idiots are terrible. Wow, hur dur, we are so dumb that we waste equipment and manpower. When Commissars have to do anything more than lead the charge and say inspirational crap, then there is a problem in the regiment.

Militarius Trademarkus: have to have commissars along to maintain morale and give inspiration, because they are cowards at heart and will fail in their duty otherwise.

Krieg guardsmen: more loyal to the Emperor than a commissar, and understand that death is much better than living as a traitor.

If you need a commissar to lead the charge then the only waste is the fact that you have been given valuable equipment instead of being stripped naked and assigned to a mine clearing detachment.

The Schola Progenium churns out more than Commissars and Scions. Sisters of Battle, Ministorum Priests, various Naval Officers, crusaders, etc, are produced by the Schola.

None of which has anything to do with which regiment is best.

Necromunda Spiders all day ev'ry day.

I'm not sure you understand how an invasion works. Militarius Trademarkus squads can't do a damn thing solo because there's like 50 of them in the whole galaxy.

Where on Terra do you get that idea? There are hundreds of thousands of various regiments administered by the Ordo, all full of fighting platoons. The concept of a Stormtrooper Strike Force wouldn’t work if there were only 50 of them. Wait, are you thinking of the old fluff of a single orphan regiment with 10,000 troopers?

They can drop in and kill some stuff, but if someone else doesn't show up to secure the area they'll just get overwhelmed and wiped out. Meanwhile a siege regiment is perfectly content to open a landing zone by deploying outside of the target and shelling an area into rubble. Except they don't really need to make a landing zone, since they can just keep shelling everything into rubble until nothing remains.

Yeah, I said open up the area solo. Securing the area is something any old menial that can’t handle intense fighting can do. Wow. Kriegers bomb something from range. Cowards can’t drop right into the enemy’s ranks and command structure and finish the fight. You have to shell something to rubble over, what did you say earlier, a month’s time? You use so much munitions and weather so much fire, whereas special operations are done quickly, within the matter hours or days.

At least we have a separate army list. Your "army" is just a page in someone else's codex, and your "codex" was so awful that one of GW's best decisions in 8th was taking it away.

It’s a few pages actually. It’s called consolidation. I hear a lot of people like the idea for Space Marines as well. Who knows, we’ll be hipsters when Space Marines do it next edition. The codex was a bit repetitive on the Schola fluff, however, I found it as an interesting calling back to some of the old crazy grim dark. Turn in your library books late? Die or serve in the guard! Throw an uprising? Be ground into human paste and plaster, to be adorned about the training facility walls. The rest of the fluff—ie the information and color schemes to be used as inspiration for custom regiments, was good. Established how they have autonomy, can work with just about anybody in the Imperium (they only need mind wipes, not slaughter, when working with the cheeky grey fellas), and they have a much higher aptitude than your average guardsmen. (There life expectancy is longer than 16 hours ).

Militarius Trademarkus: have to have commissars along to maintain morale and give inspiration, because they are cowards at heart and will fail in their duty otherwise.

Militarum Tempestus don’t need Commissars to lead in battle or operations. Scions perform their duties or die trying. A single Tempestor was known to hold his own in battle against a Greater Daemon of Nurgle. In addition, Commissars are trained not only to be inspirational and brave, but also with tactics and military strategy. Problem regiments like Kreigies never get to see this side because of all the problems they cause. Scions don’t cause problems. Lord Commissars get to lead the most important of operations with no concern for fear in the hearts of Scions, while other Commissars are cutting their teeth in the regiment, getting solid firsthand experience to apply elsewhere (elsewhere not being problem regiments like Kriegies because they have to dedicate all of their time to stopping the foolish suicide because “muh death cult.”

Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

Honestly, it is probably regiments from the Sol system which are the best- it appears they get equipped with weaponry and gear far superior to the vast majority of the Imperial Guard, and have some extremely selective units in existence there.

For example, whilst Saturn itself has been claimed by the Inquisition, the void clans were probably relocated and are almost certainly still churning out regiments in the vein of the Solar Auxilia template used so widely in the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. The Lucifer Blacks are also known to still exist and have legendary exploits.

If the Void Hoplites of the successors of the Saturnyne Ordos are still using equipment similar to that which set the template during the GC, then they will be forming regiments of carapace-armoured, heavily disciplined soldiers using superior lasrifles that can match or even out-range Tau troopers.

This is hardly surprising- the Sol system contains the heart of Imperial technological output, as well as being a heavily populated system with an extensive martial tradition.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

I don’t know what you mean. Scions get assigned to help out regiments all the time. They don’t bring tanks and artillery and basic mooks because it doesn’t go with their tactical doctrines.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

I don’t know what you mean. Scions get assigned to help out regiments all the time. They don’t bring tanks and artillery and basic mooks because it doesn’t go with their tactical doctrines.

Again, regiments that get trusted get access to multiple unit types in one regiment, which scions don't

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

You clearly lack the understanding that there is a distinct difference in the two mentioned type of regiments, A krieg regiment is almost unrivaled in siege warfare and grueling drawn out combat. Witch they are distictly trained in, while a Tempestus Scion regiment excel in rapid and complex operations witch their traning makes them unrivaled at. They both are very good troops but they are wildly different in their fields of expertise. And when your role is spec ops you do not need tanks, those assests are provided by other convetional forces of the imperium should the need for armoured support or heavy artiliry fire arise in a combat operation.

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

DKK no question about it.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

I don’t know what you mean. Scions get assigned to help out regiments all the time. They don’t bring tanks and artillery and basic mooks because it doesn’t go with their tactical doctrines.

Again, regiments that get trusted get access to multiple unit types in one regiment, which scions don't

Scions don’t need tanks. They rely on infantry power first and foremost with light armor and precision aircraft for support.
That’s why Scions are trusted to have every other guy holding rare weapons like plasma. I bet Kriegies would rig plasma to explode just so they could die.

Besides, Taurox Primes and Valkyries both have enough variation in firepower, from killing chaff to armor, that Scions need.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trondheim wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

You clearly lack the understanding that there is a distinct difference in the two mentioned type of regiments, A krieg regiment is almost unrivaled in siege warfare and grueling drawn out combat. Witch they are distictly trained in, while a Tempestus Scion regiment excel in rapid and complex operations witch their traning makes them unrivaled at. They both are very good troops but they are wildly different in their fields of expertise. And when your role is spec ops you do not need tanks, those assests are provided by other convetional forces of the imperium should the need for armoured support or heavy artiliry fire arise in a combat operation.

This indeed. Also, when your operations only take hours to weeks at most compared to month long artillery barrages, Scions have used their resources much more efficiently than Kriegies.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Scions don’t need tanks. They rely on infantry power first and foremost with light armor and precision aircraft for support.

IOW, once the Valkyries run low on fuel and return to base Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are completely helpless against enemy artillery and tanks and aircraft. Their only anti-tank weapons are close-range guns carried by squishy infantry, good luck closing in over miles of open ground as dug-in tanks and artillery guns are mowing them down.

Besides, Taurox Primes and Valkyries both have enough variation in firepower, from killing chaff to armor, that Scions need.

{citation needed}

Neither has very effective anti-tank firepower, and fluff-wise Valkyries are severely limited by fuel needs so they can't remain in the battle very long. Also, taking a Taurox means giving up the air mobility you're bragging about and making Militarius™ Trademarkus™ no more mobile than a conventional regiment in Chimeras. Except, unlike that conventional regiment, the Taurox is the best tank they have while the conventional regiment has LRBTs/Baneblades/etc.

(Sure, the various Imperial Navy strike aircraft are great and can kill tanks, but we all know the Imperial Navy is awesome. Don't try to steal their glory for your band of cowards and narcissists.)

Scions have used their resources much more efficiently than Kriegies.

Hardly. Scions require years of training at torture-Hogwarts, an artillery shell is mass-produced ammunition. I know which one I'd rather expend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's not like Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only shock troops in 40k. Kasrkin/DKoK grenadiers/etc all have the same equipment and superior skill. Except where Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are trained at their weird torture-Hogwarts and the biggest threat they face is their own teachers a DKoK grenadier is a veteran of merciless attrition warfare before they are even eligible for selection for grenadier duty, on top of their initial training to become guardsmen. So who is scarier, the battle-hardened survivors of some of the nastiest hells the 40k universe has to offer, or the coddled narcissists whose greatest military achievement prior to being declared elite is killing their friend for talking in potions class?

 Trondheim wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Kriegers still vastly superior to your little shock troops Apple,
Also they get gak done alone unlike your silly little elite force which isn't even allowed to be mixed, for propper mobile warfare

You clearly lack the understanding that there is a distinct difference in the two mentioned type of regiments, A krieg regiment is almost unrivaled in siege warfare and grueling drawn out combat. Witch they are distictly trained in, while a Tempestus Scion regiment excel in rapid and complex operations witch their traning makes them unrivaled at. They both are very good troops but they are wildly different in their fields of expertise. And when your role is spec ops you do not need tanks, those assests are provided by other convetional forces of the imperium should the need for armoured support or heavy artiliry fire arise in a combat operation.

And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Scions don’t need tanks. They rely on infantry power first and foremost with light armor and precision aircraft for support.

IOW, once the Valkyries run low on fuel and return to base Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are completely helpless against enemy artillery and tanks and aircraft. Their only anti-tank weapons are close-range guns carried by squishy infantry, good luck closing in over miles of open ground as dug-in tanks and artillery guns are mowing them down.

Besides, Taurox Primes and Valkyries both have enough variation in firepower, from killing chaff to armor, that Scions need.

{citation needed}

Neither has very effective anti-tank firepower, and fluff-wise Valkyries are severely limited by fuel needs so they can't remain in the battle very long. Also, taking a Taurox means giving up the air mobility you're bragging about and making Militarius™ Trademarkus™ no more mobile than a conventional regiment in Chimeras. Except, unlike that conventional regiment, the Taurox is the best tank they have while the conventional regiment has LRBTs/Baneblades/etc.

(Sure, the various Imperial Navy strike aircraft are great and can kill tanks, but we all know the Imperial Navy is awesome. Don't try to steal their glory for your band of cowards and narcissists.)

Scions have used their resources much more efficiently than Kriegies.

Hardly. Scions require years of training at torture-Hogwarts, an artillery shell is mass-produced ammunition. I know which one I'd rather expend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, it's not like Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only shock troops in 40k. Kasrkin/DKoK grenadiers/etc all have the same equipment and superior skill. Except where Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are trained at their weird torture-Hogwarts and the biggest threat they face is their own teachers a DKoK grenadier is a veteran of merciless attrition warfare before they are even eligible for selection for grenadier duty, on top of their initial training to become guardsmen. So who is scarier, the battle-hardened survivors of some of the nastiest hells the 40k universe has to offer, or the coddled narcissists whose greatest military achievement prior to being declared elite is killing their friend for talking in potions class?

Also pretty much this.
Durability is also determined how fast you can replenish your ranks, in this case, scions are difficult to replace, DKoK lineinfantry infinitely less so.

 Jazzylee wrote:
In your opinion, what is the best Imperial Guard regiment if you judge them by their historical background and victories? I would say the 8th Cadians, they may be a generic guard regiment to most people, but I admire their bravery and lineage of well trained guardsmen. The 8th Cadian from what I'm told of start their training as children, similar to the Spartans of ancient times.

The best has to be Thirteenth Penal Legion. They are the "A Team" of the Imperial Guard. If Colonel Shaeffer doesn't get you then Lieutenant Kage will.

@Not Online : As i said and will never dispute, Krieg regiments are unrivaled in drawn out warfare in theathers like Vraks and its like. But you do not send a Krieg regiment to rescue hostages and or infilltrate enemy rear lines to knock out enemy gun batteries. You send Scions and their equivelant, and you do not throw Scions against a heavily fortified and prepared foe, you send the Krieg regiments, but they have distinct different roles!

As for what regiment is the best? It boils down to personal taste and preferences. I prefer the Praetorians and Mordian Iron guard before the Scions or Krieg, but they are all good troops

 Trondheim wrote:
But you do not send a Krieg regiment to rescue hostages and or infilltrate enemy rear lines to knock out enemy gun batteries.

Nor do you sent Militarius™ Trademarkus™ to do the job. Hostages are traitors to the Emperor for allowing themselves to be taken alive instead of fighting to the death, and probably already tortured to death anyway so you might as well just shell the area into rubble. Enemy gun batteries are best knocked out by counter-battery fire from your own artillery, something Krieg regiments are great at.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
But you do not send a Krieg regiment to rescue hostages and or infilltrate enemy rear lines to knock out enemy gun batteries.

Nor do you sent Militarius™ Trademarkus™ to do the job. Hostages are traitors to the Emperor for allowing themselves to be taken alive instead of fighting to the death, and probably already tortured to death anyway so you might as well just shell the area into rubble. Enemy gun batteries are best knocked out by counter-battery fire from your own artillery, something Krieg regiments are great at.

Yea... Well thankfully Peregine Grimdarkus dont set the parameters for my view on the 40k universe, or anyone else view except your own.

IOW, once the Valkyries run low on fuel and return to base Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are completely helpless against enemy artillery and tanks and aircraft. Their only anti-tank weapons are close-range guns carried by squishy infantry, good luck closing in over miles of open ground as dug-in tanks and artillery guns are mowing them down.

Wow. You just can’t seem to grasp the concept of infantry not marching over no-man’s land. Scions air drop from orbit deep into enemy lines. Shortly after, the Valkyries (some by space, as they have been made void-worthy) show up with more Scions, letting loose and taking out vital targets. Meanwhile, the modified Taurox Primes are speeding across any open ground since the enemy is too busy fighting for their lives to bring their guns to bear. Jeez, you still seem to not understand that Scions don’t march across no-mans land like Kriegies buffoons.

{citation needed}

Neither has very effective anti-tank firepower, and fluff-wise Valkyries are severely limited by fuel needs so they can't remain in the battle very long. Also, taking a Taurox means giving up the air mobility you're bragging about and making Militarius™ Trademarkus™ no more mobile than a conventional regiment in Chimeras. Except, unlike that conventional regiment, the Taurox is the best tank they have while the conventional regiment has LRBTs/Baneblades/etc.

When I say Valkyries, I’m referring to the family of aircraft. Which one had six lascannons again? Besides, Scions don’t stay in battle very long. The goal is achieved quickly and loudly. Are you still thinking that there are only 50 Scions? I’ll spell it out for you. Four or five squads can deploy from orbit, four or five can take the Valkyries, and the other will ride in the Taurox Primes. That’s only about a Demi-company’s worth right there.

Also Taurox Primes are APCs, not tanks.

Also Taurox Primes are faster and more moneuverable than Chimeras.

(Sure, the various Imperial Navy strike aircraft are great and can kill tanks, but we all know the Imperial Navy is awesome. Don't try to steal their glory for your band of cowards and narcissists.)

Yeah, they are pretty great. I wasn’t talking about them, however.

Tempestus Scions are pretty much robots after the Correction Throne. Narcissists? Projecting your guardsmen’s penis-envy much? No emotion but devotion, bud.

Hardly. Scions require years of training at torture-Hogwarts, an artillery shell is mass-produced ammunition. I know which one I'd rather expend.

Just three years. With this training and education, they have superior skill and are trained for countless more scenarios than your Kriegies could hope to see. You expend billions of shells in your dumb barrages. You finally go to move on the enemy and they still persist, killing millions of Kriegies. Scions dropped into their HQ, killed everyone important and destroyed the frame for the enemy force, and extracted. They only lost about 50 people.

Also, it's not like Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only shock troops in 40k. Kasrkin/DKoK grenadiers/etc all have the same equipment and superior skill. Except where Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are trained at their weird torture-Hogwarts and the biggest threat they face is their own teachers a DKoK grenadier is a veteran of merciless attrition warfare before they are even eligible for selection for grenadier duty, on top of their initial training to become guardsmen. So who is scarier, the battle-hardened survivors of some of the nastiest hells the 40k universe has to offer, or the coddled narcissists whose greatest military achievement prior to being declared elite is killing their friend for talking in potions class?

Citation for superior skill? I doubt I’ll get one.
Scions are veterans of countless conflicts. Their tactical acumen is only bested by Astartes and Creed. Scions can anticipate where Eldar will strike, deploy on the hull of ork ships in the void and destroy them, clear GSC infestations, you name it.

I get your little digs on High Gothic. Blame third party sellers, not the company trying to adapt.
Also, aren’t Kriegies going through a bit of an OoP scare? I wouldn’t know how that feels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Trondheim wrote:
But you do not send a Krieg regiment to rescue hostages and or infilltrate enemy rear lines to knock out enemy gun batteries.

Nor do you sent Militarius™ Trademarkus™ to do the job. Hostages are traitors to the Emperor for allowing themselves to be taken alive instead of fighting to the death, and probably already tortured to death anyway so you might as well just shell the area into rubble. Enemy gun batteries are best knocked out by counter-battery fire from your own artillery, something Krieg regiments are great at.

Oh yeah. Let’s just destroy all the useful infrastructure that could be used to rebuild the world. Hur dur.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trondheim wrote:
@Not Online : As i said and will never dispute, Krieg regiments are unrivaled in drawn out warfare in theathers like Vraks and its like. But you do not send a Krieg regiment to rescue hostages and or infilltrate enemy rear lines to knock out enemy gun batteries. You send Scions and their equivelant, and you do not throw Scions against a heavily fortified and prepared foe, you send the Krieg regiments, but they have distinct different roles!

As for what regiment is the best? It boils down to personal taste and preferences. I prefer the Praetorians and Mordian Iron guard before the Scions or Krieg, but they are all good troops

If you are curious, you can look back in the thread to when I said Scions shouldn’t be in the running for OP’s question. My interpretation was that OP asked for the best Militarum Regimentos Regiment. I’ve only discussed further since people just get their rocks off hating on Scions.

I read that and I actually agree with you. People do have their panties in a twist about the Scions, thankfully no one forces them to play said army

 Trondheim wrote:
Yea... Well thankfully Peregine Grimdarkus dont set the parameters for my view on the 40k universe, or anyone else view except your own.

Agreed. I've noticed that Peregrine's views on some things in the 40k universe at so grimdark as to be one-dimensional. Either that or he is joking by deliberately pushing the envelope, I cannot tell which.

Stormtroopers are a part of the lore, and while they may be called something stupid after the latest round of GW trademarkization... they are still undeniably cool.

Special forces are also not a waste of resources, as has been proven time and time again in real life conflicts. Even in more meat-grindery attrition based conflict such as WW1, the german sturmtruppen proved their worth with their incredible performance in the Kaiserschlacht.

I think Apple Peel is overly-enthusiastic about his stormtroopers, but I also feel some posters in here are being needlessly contrarian.

Kriegs aren't "good" guardsmen. But Kriegs are very good regiments. Their entire training is designed to make them good in mass ranks. Their personnal accuracy is poor, but they are only thought to create suppressive fire. They are very endurent troopers. Capable of fighting in the worst wastelands and are adept at trench warfare. They rely heavily on attrition and artillery to win their battles thus only efficient in large battlegroup where several regiments work together. Their discipline and fanaticism is almost unrivaled in the Imperial Guard and their officers got their rank thanks to merit and survival alone. One regiment of Krieg isn't very dangerous. They aren't trained to fight highly mobile form of warfare and don't have the tools to make them efficient close combat fighters either even though they are well trained in it. All in all, Kreig win in a very "imperial guard" way. They will attack and throw their lives away until you run out of ammo, courage and men before they do. It makes for very costly battle in men and equipment, but the Krieg don't care. They are here to die for the Emperor and that's it. The glarring weaknesses of the Krieg Death Korp both in personnal training and at the tactical level prevents them from being the best regiment of the Imperial Guard. The best ones are still Cadians in my opinion.

PS: I don't consider the Millitarum Tempestus as part of the Imperial Guard either.

epronovost wrote:

PS: I don't consider the Millitarum Tempestus as part of the Imperial Guard either.

Yeah, they aren’t. Look at the separation of the Astra Militarum picture in the 8th codex. Militarum Regimentos is IG.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Wow. You just can’t seem to grasp the concept of infantry not marching over no-man’s land. Scions air drop from orbit deep into enemy lines. Shortly after, the Valkyries (some by space, as they have been made void-worthy) show up with more Scions, letting loose and taking out vital targets. Meanwhile, the modified Taurox Primes are speeding across any open ground since the enemy is too busy fighting for their lives to bring their guns to bear. Jeez, you still seem to not understand that Scions don’t march across no-mans land like Kriegies buffoons.

And then a squadron of enemy air superiority fighters shoots down the Valkyries then strafes the Tauroxes, killing the entire assault force. I mean, if you're just going to assume that the enemy can't even stop a few small units of infantry then I can assume that the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't get any Imperial Navy escort.

Which one had six lascannons again?

The one that is an Imperial Navy gunship, not a Militarius™ Trademarkus™ unit.

Besides, Scions don’t stay in battle very long. The goal is achieved quickly and loudly.

So, they're a very complicated way of doing what a Marauder squadron can do in a single bombing run. Why have infantry if they aren't going to stay on the ground and hold their objectives? If killing is all you want that's what artillery and air strikes are for.

Also Taurox Primes are APCs, not tanks.

I'm not sure how you think this is a point in your favor, arguing that Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't even have real tanks.

Tempestus Scions are pretty much robots after the Correction Throne.

Also not a point in their favor. In fact, the whole emphasis on absolute and unquestioning obedience in their codex is just a long essay on why they're terrible elite troops. Elites need intelligence and initiative, not mindless obedience to their original orders. Grenadiers/Kasrkin/etc are just as well trained and equipped but aren't turned into lobotomized gun servitors.

PS: which one is more likely to flee after suffering losses? I'll give you a hint, it's not the army where even the basic infantry squads are completely immune to morale losses caused by shooting.

Just three years. With this training and education, they have superior skill and are trained for countless more scenarios than your Kriegies could hope to see.

{citation needed}

Last I checked rules-wise they're pretty similar, just with different special deployment rules (Militarius™ Trademarkus™ get to deep strike, grenadiers get a 9" pre-game move). And fluff-wise grenadiers are the survivors of some of the worst hellscapes the 40k universe can come up with. I know I'd put more faith in the skill and experience of a hardened veteran who has gone up against certain death and survived vs. a graduate of torture-Hogwarts whose greatest accomplishment before being declared elite was killing their classmate for talking in potions class.

Scions dropped into their HQ, killed everyone important and destroyed the frame for the enemy force, and extracted. They only lost about 50 people.

That's nice fanfiction, but it isn't reality. In a real war even if you can identify the enemy HQ killing one officer just means that the next one in the chain of command takes over. Just like space marine fanboys you over-value the importance of single officers and then magnify your error by assuming that dropping infantry that then have to be recovered is a better answer than launching a Manticore salvo and killing everything in the entire grid square.

Scions are veterans of countless conflicts.

Some Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are veterans. Some are newbies fresh out of Hogwarts. Every single DKoK grenadier is a battle-tested veteran who has earned the right to wear the skull gas mask.

I get your little digs on High Gothic. Blame third party sellers, not the company trying to adapt.

No, I blame GW for publishing idiotic fluff for idiotic reasons.

Oh yeah. Let’s just destroy all the useful infrastructure that could be used to rebuild the world. Hur dur.

Useful for what? More heresy and xenos filth? The taint must be purged with fire, only then can the world be rebuilt in the Emperor's name.

 Big Mac wrote:
There is no best regiment, each one are specialized, even the famous ones. But if I had to choose, I’d go with Tanith First and Only, there is like a 15 book series about them.

Ditto

And then a squadron of enemy air superiority fighters shoots down the Valkyries then strafes the Tauroxes, killing the entire assault force. I mean, if you're just going to assume that the enemy can't even stop a few small units of infantry then I can assume that the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't get any Imperial Navy escort.

You really don’t think they get any help like any other force?

The one that is an Imperial Navy gunship, not a Militarius™ Trademarkus™ unit.

Wow. Congratulations. It’s almost as if Aeronautica units get assigned to Scion Regiments. And could you stop with the dumb mocking names? It makes you look even more pedantic and idiotic.

So, they're a very complicated way of doing what a Marauder squadron can do in a single bombing run. Why have infantry if they aren't going to stay on the ground and hold their objectives? If killing is all you want that's what artillery and air strikes are for.

Funny, I explained this earlier. Scions go and clear the objectives so basic menial troopers like your Kriegies can establish a foot hold in a timely manner.

I'm not sure how you think this is a point in your favor, arguing that Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't even have real tanks.

If by showing your idiocy, then yes, it is a point in my favor. In addition, as I’ve said before, Scions don’t use tanks. They’re too slow for the rapid strike operations employed by Scions. I’m thinking your just being obtuse.

Also not a point in their favor. In fact, the whole emphasis on absolute and unquestioning obedience in their codex is just a long essay on why they're terrible elite troops. Elites need intelligence and initiative, not mindless obedience to their original orders. Grenadiers/Kasrkin/etc are just as well trained and equipped but aren't turned into lobotomized gun servitors.

When I say robots, I don’t mean servitors. I mean men that don’t care for the penis-envy of normal guardsmen. The Correction Throne wiped the brain of unnecessary memories so the room can be used for nigh countless tactical doctrines. Scions can make on-the-spot decisions when in the field to ensure orders are completed as best as possible.

PS: which one is more likely to flee after suffering losses? I'll give you a hint, it's not the army where even the basic infantry squads are completely immune to morale losses caused by shooting.

I don’t know, I can point to many times in lore that Scions have stuck threw while never breaking. If we were going to use just basic unit stats for comparison, then you need to hush up about artillery barrages from orbit and month-long artillery barrages, as you can’t do those in game.

{citation needed}

Last I checked rules-wise they're pretty similar, just with different special deployment rules (Militarius™ Trademarkus™ get to deep strike, grenadiers get a 9" pre-game move). And fluff-wise grenadiers are the survivors of some of the worst hellscapes the 40k universe can come up with. I know I'd put more faith in the skill and experience of a hardened veteran who has gone up against certain death and survived vs. a graduate of torture-Hogwarts whose greatest accomplishment before being declared elite was killing their classmate for talking in potions class.

Tempestus Scions will always oversaturate your Grenadiers on special weapons, being able to take four in a ten man squad and two in a five man squad.

That's nice fanfiction, but it isn't reality. In a real war even if you can identify the enemy HQ killing one officer just means that the next one in the chain of command takes over. Just like space marine fanboys you over-value the importance of single officers and then magnify your error by assuming that dropping infantry that then have to be recovered is a better answer than launching a Manticore salvo and killing everything in the entire grid square.

Don’t really care, bruv. Yeah, let’s just destroy all the factorums and such because lol, artillery.


Some Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are veterans. Some are newbies fresh out of Hogwarts. Every single DKoK grenadier is a battle-tested veteran who has earned the right to wear the skull gas mask.
Congratulations. Scions, with all their proficiency, start out at the level Kriegies get if they don’t kill themselves. And the Kriegies will probably die soon after. However, Scions have much higher potential sealing because of this. Scions can only go up m, whereas Kriegies will die sooner rather than later.

 Apple Peel wrote:
...It makes you look even more pedantic and idiotic.

 Apple Peel wrote:
...It makes you look even more pedantic and idiotic.

Excellent use of words, especially by you.


Also, look at the Scion Tempestor Prime. He can't even carry a sidearm when he wishes to command more than one squad. He needs a beat stick command rod to do that.

 Hawky wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
...It makes you look even more pedantic and idiotic.

 Apple Peel wrote:
...It makes you look even more pedantic and idiotic.

Excellent use of words, especially by you.


Also, look at the Scion Tempestor Prime. He can't even carry a sidearm when he wishes to command more than one squad. He needs a beat stick command rod to do that.

If it were a Whip i would suspect either slaaneshy or da heresy!

Also, look at the Scion Tempestor Prime. He can't even carry a sidearm when he wishes to command more than one squad. He needs a beat stick command rod to do that.

I would be happier if the Prime was able to keep the sidearms, but I’m not using the Prime as shooter.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Also, look at the Scion Tempestor Prime. He can't even carry a sidearm when he wishes to command more than one squad. He needs a beat stick command rod to do that.

I would be happier if the Prime was able to keep the sidearms, but I’m not using the Prime as shooter.

Be happy that you still have options.

unlike some other armies........

The storied (*) 597th Valhallan - guardians of a Hero of the Imperium, trusted by the Inqusition (well at least a couple fo Inquisitors), they have fought against and survived against Necrons, Tau, Orks, Chaos and Tryanids.

(*) they have books written about them in and out of universe

Can't we just agree that anyone wearing carapace armor and using a hellgun is superior to being a mutant wearing power armor and using a boltgun?

 Bobthehero wrote:
Can't we just agree that anyone wearing carapace armor and using a hellgun is superior to being a mutant wearing power armor and using a boltgun?

Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing. And, if we're talking superior, as in, in combat and strategy, then certainly not - Space Marines, by and large, are better than nearly all humans (barring ones who are given similarly "mutant"-like enhancements or psychic powers).

Of course, if the question is "more badass", then that becomes subjective, and a real contest

@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

Honestly those arguing between the Scions and the DKK speak more of their views on tactics then anything else. The DKK are siege regiments. they have one job they do, and they do it well. but by and alrge outside of that they aren't exceptional. give them a military objective that requires pinpoint precision and intelligent use of limited resources.. and they'll proably perform below average for a guard regiment (this isn't to say they can't do it, just it's not in their dedicated skill set) Scions are on the complete other side of this, let's face it, no commander wants Scions to show up in a Battlezone as it proably means his request for Astartes support was turned down. They're discount Astartes (this isn't to run them down just they fill a similer role to what space Marines would be used for in a Joint operation, precision strikes on key locations etc to be followed up by assaults from guard Line regiments) and they'd fair poorly in a drawn out siege.

The fact is, neither qualifies IMHO. Let's step back a moment and reframe this question a bit, (since "best" is relative) You are an Imperial Guard general tasked with leading a crusade in a sector of space, you can't be 100% sure what you'll face. Due to politics the support of additional arms of the IoM will be minimal and likewise due to politics you have been told you may draw your troops from a single source world.
What world do you choose?

to me this would eliminate both the Kreigers and the Scions. I'd want a force like the Cadians. they may not be as good at siege as the Kreigers, or as good at precision strikes as the Scions, but they're over all going to perform better across the crusade theatre

DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing.

That sounds an awful lot like making excuses for why these particular mutants should not be purged with fire. Please report to your commissar for corrective education.

BrianDavion wrote:Honestly those arguing between the Scions and the DKK speak more of their views on tactics then anything else. The DKK are siege regiments. they have one job they do, and they do it well. but by and alrge outside of that they aren't exceptional. give them a military objective that requires pinpoint precision and intelligent use of limited resources.. and they'll proably perform below average for a guard regiment (this isn't to say they can't do it, just it's not in their dedicated skill set) Scions are on the complete other side of this, let's face it, no commander wants Scions to show up in a Battlezone as it proably means his request for Astartes support was turned down. They're discount Astartes (this isn't to run them down just they fill a similer role to what space Marines would be used for in a Joint operation, precision strikes on key locations etc to be followed up by assaults from guard Line regiments) and they'd fair poorly in a drawn out siege.

The fact is, neither qualifies IMHO. Let's step back a moment and reframe this question a bit, (since "best" is relative) You are an Imperial Guard general tasked with leading a crusade in a sector of space, you can't be 100% sure what you'll face. Due to politics the support of additional arms of the IoM will be minimal and likewise due to politics you have been told you may draw your troops from a single source world.
What world do you choose?

to me this would eliminate both the Kreigers and the Scions. I'd want a force like the Cadians. they may not be as good at siege as the Kreigers, or as good at precision strikes as the Scions, but they're over all going to perform better across the crusade theatre

I agree. Kriegers aren’t good enough for this, and Scions shouldn’t be in the running since I don’t think OP wants the entirety of the Astra Militarum, just the Militarum Regimentos.

DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.

Literally just making up the screaming in terror. Scions would march straight into Nurgle’s navel just after walking through a Khornate nightclub.
Your assault brigades are nothing compared to precision possible with a Militarum Tempestus Surgical Strike Brigade. Squads of Scions air dropping in or grav-chuting in from a flight of Valkyries. The Valks fly over at supersonic speeds and the Scions safely make it to ground while the other Scions drop from the Stratosphere with nothing but an anti-thermal shield equivalent of a blanket. Then the Valks come back doing a mixture of strafing runs and hovering for aerial fire support.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

Sisters don't fall to Chaos at all - whereas Marines - well whole Legions fell......and whole Chapters still do.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Literally just making up the screaming in terror. Scions would march straight into Nurgle’s navel just after walking through a Khornate nightclub.

That's funny, because one of the two has a rule that makes them literally immune to morale losses from shooting (on top of orders to make them immune to every other morale issue) while the other has to roll a D6 every time they take losses to see if more of the squad breaks and runs. And it sure as hell isn't the DKoK having to make that roll.

Your assault brigades are nothing compared to precision possible with a Militarum Tempestus Surgical Strike Brigade. Squads of Scions air dropping in or grav-chuting in from a flight of Valkyries. The Valks fly over at supersonic speeds and the Scions safely make it to ground while the other Scions drop from the Stratosphere with nothing but an anti-thermal shield equivalent of a blanket. Then the Valks come back doing a mixture of strafing runs and hovering for aerial fire support.

Valkyries are Imperial Navy, not Militarius™ Trademarkus™. Any regiment can be deployed that way and receive the same Imperial Navy fire support.

PS: citation on the orbital drop bit? I assume you're omitting the grav chutes, unless you're suggesting literally dropping Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squads from orbit as kinetic bombardment shells? Though I suppose that would be as good a use as any for them...

The Scion 7th Ed codex has them drop from orbit, as individual targets they're too small for the AA defense that were tearing through the Flesh Tearers Pods and Thunderhawks.

My guess is that it works because the Marine jumppacks aren't made for atmospheric reentry, possibly because of the fuel, while grav-chute do not have that problem.

BrianDavion wrote:Honestly those arguing between the Scions and the DKK speak more of their views on tactics then anything else. The DKK are siege regiments. they have one job they do, and they do it well. but by and alrge outside of that they aren't exceptional. give them a military objective that requires pinpoint precision and intelligent use of limited resources.. and they'll proably perform below average for a guard regiment (this isn't to say they can't do it, just it's not in their dedicated skill set) Scions are on the complete other side of this, let's face it, no commander wants Scions to show up in a Battlezone as it proably means his request for Astartes support was turned down. They're discount Astartes (this isn't to run them down just they fill a similer role to what space Marines would be used for in a Joint operation, precision strikes on key locations etc to be followed up by assaults from guard Line regiments) and they'd fair poorly in a drawn out siege.

The fact is, neither qualifies IMHO. Let's step back a moment and reframe this question a bit, (since "best" is relative) You are an Imperial Guard general tasked with leading a crusade in a sector of space, you can't be 100% sure what you'll face. Due to politics the support of additional arms of the IoM will be minimal and likewise due to politics you have been told you may draw your troops from a single source world.
What world do you choose?

to me this would eliminate both the Kreigers and the Scions. I'd want a force like the Cadians. they may not be as good at siege as the Kreigers, or as good at precision strikes as the Scions, but they're over all going to perform better across the crusade theatre

I agree, which is why I'd probably chose Cadians or Catachans out of the well-known regiments, or maybe Steel Legion (for the hostile environment aspect). If I had to choose a specific regiment, then either the Tanith First and Only or the Catachan 2nd (the Cadian 8th would be in there, but I don't know what is left of them after the events of Cadia... )

My reasoning for the Terran regiments is that they basically get all the fancy toys as well as being able to recruit from pirate-hunting voiders or hive scum from the biggest warren of humanity in the galaxy. They also have literally the longest traditions of Imperial service.

Mr Morden wrote:

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

Sisters don't fall to Chaos at all - whereas Marines - well whole Legions fell......and whole Chapters still do.

I kind of get the feeling this is because the Sisters that could fall to Chaos in the future have already fallen to being ten seconds late to morning prayer or ironing their habit wrong or something, and died in combat after being reassigned to the Repentia squads...

Peregrine wrote:PS: citation on the orbital drop bit? I assume you're omitting the grav chutes, unless you're suggesting literally dropping Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squads from orbit as kinetic bombardment shells? Though I suppose that would be as good a use as any for them...

There have been some examples of Valkyries modified for basic void transit, and used to deploy Scions against void craft or onto planets.

epronovost wrote:@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine.
The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

Peregrine wrote:DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.

Why would the MT need tanks and artillery? They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil. They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

However, guardsmen, including the DKoK, could be deployed in ANY theatre, regardless of their skills - and that can be a good thing, or terrible.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing.

That sounds an awful lot like making excuses for why these particular mutants should not be purged with fire. Please report to your commissar for corrective education.

The Emperor created these ones - that makes them sacred.
Please report to your priest for religious reeducation.

Bobthehero wrote:The Scion 7th Ed codex has them drop from orbit, as individual targets they're too small for the AA defense that were tearing through the Flesh Tearers Pods and Thunderhawks.

My guess is that it works because the Marine jumppacks aren't made for atmospheric reentry, possibly because of the fuel, while grav-chute do not have that problem.

Correct. There's a bit of fluff that outlines Scions making a high-orbit jump in their carapace, and slipping past because of their smaller signature. The main battle, conducted by the Flesh Tearers, is going poorly, until Scions do what the Marines cannot, and disable the guns. It's not to say Marines *couldn't* do that (Scouts could), but in that battle, the resources were not available.

DKoK in this battle wouldn't have been able to establish a landing zone for their artillery, let alone disable the guns.

That's funny, because one of the two has a rule that makes them literally immune to morale losses from shooting (on top of orders to make them immune to every other morale issue) while the other has to roll a D6 every time they take losses to see if more of the squad breaks and runs. And it sure as hell isn't the DKoK having to make that roll.

Oh yes, because Forge World’s crack design team has never given anything any crazy abilities before, and just using rules as the only justification for something is dumb. You’d think a full tactical squad were just pansies if you looked at their rules with ATSKNF.

Valkyries are Imperial Navy, not Militarius™ Trademarkus™. Any regiment can be deployed that way and receive the same Imperial Navy fire support.

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

epronovost wrote:@Sgt_Smudge

Aren't Sister of Battle mentally stronger then Space Marines? They don't fall to Chaos half as often.

Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine.
The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

Peregrine wrote:DKoK are more than just the siege regiments. For example, a DKoK assault brigade is what Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they could be: a core of mechanized storm troopers supported by tanks and artillery. Same elite troops, except with proper heavy guns instead of that Taurox and unwavering determination to take the objective at all costs even when the Hogwarts crowd would run screaming in terror.

Why would the MT need tanks and artillery? They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil. They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

However, guardsmen, including the DKoK, could be deployed in ANY theatre, regardless of their skills - and that can be a good thing, or terrible.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not really mutants. More "superior in every physical and mental way" to a human, by grace of the Emperor's own gifts and blessing.

That sounds an awful lot like making excuses for why these particular mutants should not be purged with fire. Please report to your commissar for corrective education.

The Emperor created these ones - that makes them sacred.
Please report to your priest for religious reeducation.

Bobthehero wrote:The Scion 7th Ed codex has them drop from orbit, as individual targets they're too small for the AA defense that were tearing through the Flesh Tearers Pods and Thunderhawks.

My guess is that it works because the Marine jumppacks aren't made for atmospheric reentry, possibly because of the fuel, while grav-chute do not have that problem.

Correct. There's a bit of fluff that outlines Scions making a high-orbit jump in their carapace, and slipping past because of their smaller signature. The main battle, conducted by the Flesh Tearers, is going poorly, until Scions do what the Marines cannot, and disable the guns. It's not to say Marines *couldn't* do that (Scouts could), but in that battle, the resources were not available.

DKoK in this battle wouldn't have been able to establish a landing zone for their artillery, let alone disable the guns.

All well said.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
As for strategy and tactics. I think it's fair to say that Scions and some generals of the Imperial Guard (like Creed or Yarrick, Straken or Macharius) were more then a match for the best commander of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine.
The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh yes, because Forge World’s crack design team has never given anything any crazy abilities before, and just using rules as the only justification for something is dumb. You’d think a full tactical squad were just pansies if you looked at their rules with ATSKNF.

Just like GW's crack design team gave Militarius™ Trademarkus™ some terrible deep strike rules that they shouldn't have?

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.

Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can do it, Elysian drop troops can do it. And last I checked Militarius™ Trademarkus™ have the same 1/6 chance of going splat as everyone else, unless they're the lucky single squad that gets the stratagem to avoid it. And if we're talking about stratagems then we can laugh at the fact that apparently "how to disembark from a moving transport" isn't part of the curriculum at Hogwarts, since the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only IG faction that can't use the stratagem to do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why would the MT need tanks and artillery?

Because that's how combined-arms warfare works? What exactly do Militarius™ Trademarkus™ do if they run into anything that can't be dealt with by small arms fire? Give up and die? Imagine a spotter a mile away radios in mortar fire from guns multiple miles away? A DKoK grenadier unit can dig in and call for counter-battery fire to neutralize the threat, but what is the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ solution? Grab their wands and yell PROTECTO at the incoming mortar shells until they die?

They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are a really inefficient way of doing what a Manticore barrage can do.

They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

Maybe 1v1 against a basic guardsman, but against grenadiers/kasrkin/etc? I don't think so. Same equipment, same level of training, except incorporated into a proper combined-arms force instead of used in suicide drops without support.

The Emperor created these ones - that makes them sacred.
Please report to your priest for religious reeducation.

Heretical lies, nothing more. The Emperor is perfect and would not create mutants in His image.

Just gonna slip over the problems with tactically, huh?

Just like GW's crack design team gave Militarius™ Trademarkus™ some terrible deep strike rules that they shouldn't have?

I would argue that it’s GWs laziness and not making the weapon longer ranged. But that’s just me.

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.

Gonna skip the tank suppliers, too, huh?

Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can do it, Elysian drop troops can do it. And last I checked Militarius™ Trademarkus™ have the same 1/6 chance of going splat as everyone else, unless they're the lucky single squad that gets the stratagem to avoid it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

In terms of battle tactics I do have some reserved. I do think that Space Marines are probably more tactically sound then Sisters of Battle, but there is a high level of varience between Chapters. Flesh Tearers aren't well known for their strategical genius. Sister of the Sacred Rose though are known to highly gifted in that domain. While on average, Space Marines are probably have more tactical and strategical acumen, some Sisters probably match them rather well.

"Some" generals being the operative term. While the ceiling for genuinely genius-tier strategy is higher for guardsmen, the vast majority of their leaders and commanders have inferior strategic skill to a basic Space Marine. The best guardsmen are better than the best Space Marines, but consider how most Space Marine commanders are pretty near to the top anyways, and far above what most of the "best" guardsman strategists are, Marines are better.

Also, when were Straken and Yarrick tactical powerhouses? Physical and inspirational, and Yarrick was notable on Armageddon purely because he wasn't incompetent like the rest of the planet's leadership, but tactical? I don't think so.

Creed and Macharius, however, I will grant, but as two stellar strategists, compared to only-slightly-below Space Marines, who reach this tier of skill far more readily, they're outnumbered.

I'm not convinced that Imperial Guard commanders are worst then Space Marines ones. Obviously, both operate vastly different force. At most a Space Marine officer will lead about a thousand men. An Imperial Guard high staff offcier will command millions if not even more. A Space Marine commander must command his forces in very different theatres of war from space battles to planet side passing by special operations. Most Imperial Guard officers have a much more limited field of expertise. Imperial Guard officers outnumber Space Marines officer to such a degree, it's difficult to compare them either. Overall, I would say the pool of talent from which the Imperial Guard can draw is so vast that at the organisational level, the Guard possess greater tactical acumen then the Space Marines.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Gonna skip the tank suppliers, too, huh?

What is there to discuss? Who supplies the vehicles is irrelevant. A DKoK LRBT is a DKoK unit incorporated into a DKoK regiment. A Vulture gunship making a strafing run for a Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squad is an Imperial Navy unit that is not part of the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ faction, and could provide that exact same support to a Cadian or Tallarn unit. You don't get to claim credit for Imperial Navy units when they aren't part of your faction.

Aren’t Elysians gone now as a playable army for the future? People with their stuff can play, but besides recast and private sales, Elysia is down for the count.

They still exist in the fluff regardless of whether or not the model kits are available NIB.

We’ve stated multiple times that Scions don’t make up a standard combined arms force.

Yes, and that's why they suck. DKoK grenadiers/Cadian kasrkin/etc have the same superior training and equipment but also have combined arms support when needed. Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't, and you somehow think this absence is a virtue.

Scions will complete the objective if possible. Otherwise they will evac to a safer position.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ will take the objective as long as it's easy, but if things get difficult they'll give up and run away. Perhaps that's why they have commissars attached to maintain order, while DKoK regiments have commissars attached to act as advisors.

Besides, if we want silly rules like you, Scions can use preliminary bombardment from allies off the battlefield as well. That would give enough time to take out the enemy and evac.

So now you're just going to make up random rules for off-table support from non-Militarius™ Trademarkus™ units as your argument for how awesome Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are?

Oh yeah, definitely, but for some reason, my non-insane commander actually wants that promethium refinery intact. I could only wonder why we didn’t shoot at it even a little bit.

Oh, you want it intact and can't use any heavy weapons? Better leave the plasma and melta guns at home and hope the enemy doesn't have anything but light infantry to oppose them. And god help your poor Militarius™ Trademarkus™ if the enemy brings a tank.

They indeed have an established unique fighting style in melee that sets them apart from the regulars.

Grenadier: WS 3+

Militarius™ Trademarkus™: WS 4+

Enough said.

Again, Scions aren’t used in combined arms situations, they are for strikes and surgical strikes. They open up a hole in the line for everyone else to follow.

Again, grenadiers/kasrkin/etc can do that exact same job except they can also do more because they are integrated into combined arms forces. The only thing special about Militarius™ Trademarkus™ is the sheer idiocy of their fluff.

What is there to discuss? Who supplies the vehicles is irrelevant. A DKoK LRBT is a DKoK unit incorporated into a DKoK regiment. A Vulture gunship making a strafing run for a Militarius™ Trademarkus™ squad is an Imperial Navy unit that is not part of the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ faction, and could provide that exact same support to a Cadian or Tallarn unit. You don't get to claim credit for Imperial Navy units when they aren't part of your faction.

It’s not “a part” of the regiment, but it is assigned to the regiment to be used at the discretion of the Commanding Officers. This is also why Valks assigned to Scion regiments get Regimental paintjobs, as they have been incorporated into the regiment.

They still exist in the fluff regardless of whether or not the model kits are available NIB.

Didn’t matter, if your going to be a rules stickler no lore tie-ins (but for some reason it’s entirely OK for you to bring up ridiculous month long artillery barrages and act like that’s the answer for everything), then Elysia is all but gone for some legacy rules. That will die.

Yes, and that's why they suck. DKoK grenadiers/Cadian kasrkin/etc have the same superior training and equipment but also have combined arms support when needed. Militarius™ Trademarkus™ don't, and you somehow think this absence is a virtue.

It shows a completely different operation style that’s unique from foot-slogging meatmash.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ will take the objective as long as it's easy, but if things get difficult they'll give up and run away. Perhaps that's why they have commissars attached to maintain order, while DKoK regiments have commissars attached to act as advisors.

Kriegtards get blown up and die, and the ones that don’t slit their own wrists.

We also went over this already. Short attention span? Commissars don’t maintain order. They are battle leaders. Commissars with Kriegtards are “advisors” because they’ll be killed because Kriegtards are actually insane.

So now you're just going to make up random rules for off-table support from non-Militarius™ Trademarkus™ units as your argument for how awesome Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are?

Make up rules? Do you not know about the Preliminary Bombardment stratagem?

Oh, you want it intact and can't use any heavy weapons? Better leave the plasma and melta guns at home and hope the enemy doesn't have anything but light infantry to oppose them. And god help your poor Militarius™ Trademarkus™ if the enemy brings a tank.

Hmm. 3+ BS Taurox Primes with Battle Cannons, Missle Launchers, Gatling Cannons, autocannons, hot-shot volley guns. The Taurox Primes would be in their element, really, zipping about the streets, using its small size to find vantage point in ruins, etc.

Also, man-portable hot-shot volley guns and grenade launchers. Scions would probably shoot straight enough that it would be fine to bring plasma and melta, too.

Grenadier: WS 3+

Militarius™ Trademarkus™: WS 4+

Going by this logic, Kriegtards don’t get month long artillery barrages.

Again, grenadiers/kasrkin/etc can do that exact same job except they can also do more because they are integrated into combined arms forces. The only thing special about Militarius™ Trademarkus™ is the sheer idiocy of their fluff.

 Apple Peel wrote:
It’s not “a part” of the regiment, but it is assigned to the regiment to be used at the discretion of the Commanding Officers. This is also why Valks assigned to Scion regiments get Regimental paintjobs, as they have been incorporated into the regiment.

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

Didn’t matter, if your going to be a rules stickler no lore tie-ins (but for some reason it’s entirely OK for you to bring up ridiculous month long artillery barrages and act like that’s the answer for everything), then Elysia is all but gone for some legacy rules. That will die.

I have no idea what you're talking about here, since when did I claim that rules are all that matters? In fact, as you point out I've made plenty of references to the fluff. So no, the fact that the Elysian range is OOP does not remove them from the fluff.

It shows a completely different operation style that’s unique from foot-slogging meatmash.

I guess you're going to ignore the part where DKoK are not just foot slogging trench warfare? In fact, in 7th they had an entire army list built around grenadiers in Chimeras with tanks and artillery in support. IOW, playing like the storm troopers that Militarius™ Trademarkus™ wish they still were.

Commissars don’t maintain order.

Oh really? Then why are they present? Why don't they have a senior officer instead of a person specifically trained to enforce disciple at gunpoint?

Make up rules? Do you not know about the Preliminary Bombardment stratagem?

A weak attack that involves calling for units that are not Militarius™ Trademarkus™ to help? Not really helping your case here.

Hmm. 3+ BS Taurox Primes with Battle Cannons, Missle Launchers, Gatling Cannons, autocannons, hot-shot volley guns. The Taurox Primes would be in their element, really, zipping about the streets, using its small size to find vantage point in ruins, etc.

Wait, I thought we had to take the objective intact? Now you want to shoot battle cannons and other assorted heavy explosives into the building? Make up your mind.

PS: you know what's really great in urban combat? A Hellhound squadron. Which grenadiers/kasrkin/etc can have, and Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can't.

Kasrkin and Grenadiers aren’t the ones using the tanks and such. That’s just regimental support.

Err, what? Unlike Militarius™ Trademarkus™ kasrkin/grenadiers/etc are part of a conventional regiment. A squad of grenadiers isn't calling in help from an armored regiment, they're fighting alongside their own regiment's LRBTs. A Militarius™ Trademarkus™ unit has no such support within their own regiment and has to call on outsiders to help.

The Schola Progenium was written poorly, I’ll give you that. But, otherwise Scions are good for lore. The stuff from the Ordo Tempestus section from “Regiments of the Militarum Tempestus” through “Tempestus Millennium” was good.

IOW, if you ignore the defining thing that makes Militarius™ Trademarkus™ what they are then they're fine. Though, if you're so insistent on rejecting the defining element of your faction I really have to wonder why you like them so much.

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

I’m not gonna take you seriously anymore. Especially taking other things out of context. Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training. That’s why they have the authority to shoot regular incompetent commanders and take over battle forces.

Theoretically, any Commissar could shoot Creed if he felt it was necessary. Then the Commissar would take over temporarily.
This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

 Apple Peel wrote:
Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training.

And yet their primary reason for existing is to enforce discipline and obedience with the threat of execution. That's why, before graduation from torture Hogwarts, they're required to shoot one of their friends to demonstrate their willingness to obey and enforce orders without question. If Militarius™ Trademarkus™ had someone attached purely for tactical knowledge then it would be a veteran officer chosen for their tactical ability and victories over the enemy, not their willingness to shoot their own troops.

(Let's not forget that, purely by the rules, commissars have no leadership or command ability and their only rules are direct LD buffs to avoid having models flee. To get any command ability at all you have to give them a warlord trait that lets them have the same orders that a platoon commander in a conventional regiment gets to use, well short of what even a basic company commander has.)

This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

Nothing I could say could be worse than the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ fluff published by GW.

@Peregrine

I find it funny that you find Scholam ridiculous to the point of calling it Torture Hogward, but love the Krieg fluff despite the fact it's pretty much the same thing. Kriegs are reduced to numbers instead of a fake "biblical" name. Both are trained from infancy. Both have an appaling attrition rate and are submitted to sadistic tests, training and rituals designed to weed out the weak. The only difference is that "Torture Hogward" is for fancy people while "Torture Disney Land" is for everyone.

epronovost wrote:
@Peregrine

I find it funny that you find Scholam ridiculous to the point of calling it Torture Hogward, but love the Krieg fluff despite the fact it's pretty much the same thing. Kriegs are reduced to numbers instead of a fake "biblical" name. Both are trained from infancy. Both have an appaling attrition rate and are submitted to sadistic tests, training and rituals designed to weed out the weak. The only difference is that "Torture Hogward" is for fancy people while "Torture Disney Land" is for everyone.

The difference is that Krieg has always been a dystopian hellscape full of martyrs eager to atone for centuries-old sins, and the fluff never pretends that the DKoK are elite in any way besides their ability to willingly martyr themselves in the worst battlefield conditions. The Militarius™ Trademarkus™ idiocy took perfectly reasonable fluff about the storm troopers (other than classic GW failures of scale with the numbers, but one storm trooper regiment isn't really any worse than one million space marines) and ruined it for the sake of throwing more ™ symbols all over everything. And then we're supposed to pretend that being taught to shoot their friends for talking in potions class magically turns them into elite soldiers. Their fluff even emphasizes how great their mindless obedience is, when in the real world what makes elite units valuable is their initiative and experience at adapting when the original orders need to be discarded. That's not how you make elite soldiers, it's how you make a band of sociopaths and murderers that are more dangerous to their allies than the enemy.

To highlight one of the worst abominations the fluff has a commissar candidate openly stating his willingness to shoot his best friend as a loyalty test, not because the friend is a traitor, but because he is willing to do whatever it takes to escape torture Hogwarts. The commissar is no longer the paragon of duty and loyalty from the established fluff and is reduced to a selfish thug murdering whenever it's convenient and sacrificing any principles necessary if it means continued survival. And we're supposed to believe that magically, upon graduation, this thug becomes a brave and heroic leader who will inspire others to fight to the death by leading from the front himself and not taking one step backwards, instead of a coward who would save himself by retreating and shooting any witnesses who could reveal the truth.

Note- Thread Exalted by Mistake.

To me the greatest "crime" of the Militarum Tempestus book is to have spend so many pages talking about the Scholam and only two lines talking about the Tempestor Academy where Scions finish their training. The concept was "sound" and completely pulled from the movie Soldier, a 1998 science fiction flic with Kurt Russell in the leading role. If you have seen the first five minutes of the movie, you pretty much have seen how Scion are trained.

PS: save yourself, don't watch the full movie, it's terrible.

Apple Peel wrote:

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

I’m not gonna take you seriously anymore. Especially taking other things out of context. Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training. That’s why they have the authority to shoot regular incompetent commanders and take over battle forces.

Spoiler:

Theoretically, any Commissar could shoot Creed if he felt it was necessary. Then the Commissar would take over temporarily.
This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

You took them seriously before?

Krieg & Scions have radically different dispositions, so comparing them is an exercise in futility.

Do you compare your basic grunt/artilleryman/engineer to a Delta member or Spetsnaz? No, that would be ridiculous.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

Racerguy180 wrote:

Apple Peel wrote:

So, you admit that you're trying to claim credit for units that aren't part of your weird Harry Potter slash fanfic faction.

I’m not gonna take you seriously anymore. Especially taking other things out of context. Commissars aren’t just trained in discipline. They receive Officer and tactical training. That’s why they have the authority to shoot regular incompetent commanders and take over battle forces.

Spoiler:

Theoretically, any Commissar could shoot Creed if he felt it was necessary. Then the Commissar would take over temporarily.
This is where I will leave you, as you don’t seem interested in any actual discussion, just getting your rocks off insulting Militarum Tempestus.

You took them seriously before?

Krieg & Scions have radically different dispositions, so comparing them is an exercise in futility.

Do you compare your basic grunt/artilleryman/engineer to a Delta member or Spetsnaz? No, that would be ridiculous.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

And you clearly haven't read Vraks, aswell as not having read this thread:

And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.

 Peregrine wrote:
The difference is that Krieg has always been a dystopian hellscape full of martyrs eager to atone for centuries-old sins, and the fluff never pretends that the DKoK are elite in any way besides their ability to willingly martyr themselves in the worst battlefield conditions. The Militarius™ Trademarkus™ idiocy took perfectly reasonable fluff about the storm troopers (other than classic GW failures of scale with the numbers, but one storm trooper regiment isn't really any worse than one million space marines) and ruined it for the sake of throwing more ™ symbols all over everything. And then we're supposed to pretend that being taught to shoot their friends for talking in potions class magically turns them into elite soldiers. Their fluff even emphasizes how great their mindless obedience is, when in the real world what makes elite units valuable is their initiative and experience at adapting when the original orders need to be discarded. That's not how you make elite soldiers, it's how you make a band of sociopaths and murderers that are more dangerous to their allies than the enemy.

To highlight one of the worst abominations the fluff has a commissar candidate openly stating his willingness to shoot his best friend as a loyalty test, not because the friend is a traitor, but because he is willing to do whatever it takes to escape torture Hogwarts. The commissar is no longer the paragon of duty and loyalty from the established fluff and is reduced to a selfish thug murdering whenever it's convenient and sacrificing any principles necessary if it means continued survival. And we're supposed to believe that magically, upon graduation, this thug becomes a brave and heroic leader who will inspire others to fight to the death by leading from the front himself and not taking one step backwards, instead of a coward who would save himself by retreating and shooting any witnesses who could reveal the truth.

I actually... kind of agree with this... the new fluff for the stormtroopers is overwhelmingly stupid. That doesn't mean that the CONCEPT of stormtroopers is bad, merely GW's interpretation.

People are trying to compare apples and oranges here. Which one is better: a sledgehammer or a scalpel? The real question is better for what?

If you need to knock down a wall you use a sledgehammer (krieg), if you need to do heart surgery you use a scalpel (stormtroopers). There is no "best" imperial guard regiment or "best" anything because it matters WHAT YOU ARE USING THEM FOR. I'm sure there are scenarios where an imperial guard regiment full of conscripts outperforms a space marine contingent on the battlefield by some metric, but that doesn't mean that one is better than the other or vice versa.

Just because the new stormtrooper lore is stupid doesn't mean they don't have a purpose militarily. Just because the krieg regiments specialize in attrition warfare does not mean that they do not have elite units within them capable of performing roles similarly to stormtroopers.

This entire discussion is stupid, and that is saying something because I've been willing to argue about some pretty stupid stuff on this board at various points.

Haighus wrote:Straken is definitely tactically a very astute commander, although I would not say he is above a typical Chapter Master. Strategically, I don't think there is much to go on for him.

Yarrick, on the other hand, is certainly noted as being both a strategic and tactical genius, although probably not on the level of Creed and Macharius. He wasn't simply the only competent commander on Armageddon (there were others for s start, they were just outranked and ordered to their deaths by von Strab), he was able to hold out in Hades Hive for an extended period of time with vastly inferior forces, and was able to counter every strategy devised by Ghazghkull. Some of these were strategies tailor crafted to play psychological warfare on Orks, which is impressive in it's own right. His strategic and tactical nouse was recognised enough that he was put back into a position of high command for the Third War, highly unusual for a Commissar. This has even been reflected in rules, with him being able to give orders in the 6th ed codex (not sure about 8th on this one).

Forgot about that one, yeah, fair point. However, that's no different from what I think most Imperial Fists can do. Yarrick's main tactical advantage over a Space Marine here was not underestimating Ghazghkull, and assuming that, because he was an Ork, he'd be dumb.

As a tactician against Orks, Yarrick was finer than nearly any other.

However, I agree with your overall post- the average for Marines is above the average for humans. However, when considering there is ~1 million Marines, and trillions upon trillions of humans, it is not surprising that some exceptional humans appear that can match or exceed Marines, just as some exceptional Marines could match or even exceed the Primarchs in some areas.

Exactly, but just because we have a few guardsmen reaching that tactical genius tier intellect doesn't mean they should, as an whole, be treated as smarter than the Space Marines, IMO. It's not to say Guardsmen cannot be smarter, but that the average intelligence of Guardsmen is far far lower than the average for Space Marines.

Peregrine wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
Oh yes, because Forge World’s crack design team has never given anything any crazy abilities before, and just using rules as the only justification for something is dumb. You’d think a full tactical squad were just pansies if you looked at their rules with ATSKNF.

Just like GW's crack design team gave Militarius™ Trademarkus™ some terrible deep strike rules that they shouldn't have?

Shouldn't have? Why shouldn't a force described as doing grav-chute insertions NOT have deep strike rules?
I'm noticing a trend of you using game mechanics to "justify" your arguments.I must say I'm not impressed, but if you're going to use that kind of reasoning, I'll use it myself. I'll return to that point later.

Oh yes. And all those tanks and heavy ordanance? The majority of regiments have them supplied from the Militarum Ordinatus. Some airborne regiments can try to deploy while the Valk is traveling supersonic, but only the Militarum Tempestus don’t go splat. The Militarum Tempestus use Valks best for this.

Militarius™ Trademarkus™ can do it, Elysian drop troops can do it. And last I checked Militarius™ Trademarkus™ have the same 1/6 chance of going splat as everyone else, unless they're the lucky single squad that gets the stratagem to avoid it.

This is clearly a fluff point. It's been noted in fluff before that non-aerial units (and hell, in real life too) struggle to do as well in airborne insertions as units trained for the job. In 40k, we can look at the Phantine Campaign, and how certain elite Tanith units needed weeks to train to become adequate aerial drop units. It stands to reason that Scions, who've trained for this specifically, would be adept at it.

And if we're talking about stratagems then we can laugh at the fact that apparently "how to disembark from a moving transport" isn't part of the curriculum at Hogwarts, since the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are the only IG faction that can't use the stratagem to do it.

We're not talking about stratagems. We're talking about fluff. If you want to focus on the abstraction of the game, might I suggest going somewhere that doesn't have "Background" in the subforum title?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Why would the MT need tanks and artillery?

Because that's how combined-arms warfare works?

The combined arms warfare that the Imperium rejects due to fear of traitors? Yanno, like the Kriegsmen before they decided to nuke themselves?

MOST Imperial units, including the Krieg have split regiments, which forces them into very specific niches. To a theatre commander, instead of being left with a bunch of swiss army knives, they have specific tools for specific tasks - and can ONLY fulfil that task. Pointing out the lack of combined arms warfare capability from Scions is pointless, as it applies to ALL Guardsmen forces.

Furthermore, as a result, why even WOULD Scions need combined arms warfare, when they're only being deployed in specific theatres that, say it with me now, would not need artillery and tanks?

What exactly do Militarius™ Trademarkus™ do if they run into anything that can't be dealt with by small arms fire? Give up and die?

Handwaving plasma and melta away as "small arms fire"? You can do better than that.

Imagine a spotter a mile away radios in mortar fire from guns multiple miles away? A DKoK grenadier unit can dig in and call for counter-battery fire to neutralize the threat, but what is the Militarius™ Trademarkus™ solution? Grab their wands and yell PROTECTO at the incoming mortar shells until they die?

Those guns that are on the tabletopbattlefield, or else they can't shoot? Those guns that only have a range of, what 0.2 miles? (Assuming that a 1 inch tall model is 6 foot tall IRL, taking a 240"/20' Earthshaker, and translating that to 1440 feet of range IRL, or just over 0.2 miles)
See what I meant about game stats being dumb? So, we can either ignore that, or we be smart and understand that the rules of the game are abstractions detached from the fluff.

They airdrop in, wipe out the enemy forces in pinpoint aerial insertions, and exfil.

IOW, Militarius™ Trademarkus™ are a really inefficient way of doing what a Manticore barrage can do.

Wasn't aware a Manticore could preserve artefacts/people/structures of importance, ignore void shields, gain intelligence, not require a supply train and thus exposing itself to enemy artillery and ambush forces, or secure it's own landing from orbit.

Guess those Storm Eagle rockets really HAVE got advanced.

They're completely different regiments, with completely different MOs. However, if I were to have a Kriegsman vs a Scion, the Scion wins. In a squad vs squad engagement (where Scions are designed to fight in), the Scions win. In a platoon sized engagament, Scions win. In fact, in literally any engagement up to the full scale pitched battle size, the Scion wins. Why doesn't the Scion win in the pitched battle? Because Scions aren't supposed to be deployed in those battles, and wouldn't be unless you were totally ignorant.

Maybe 1v1 against a basic guardsman, but against grenadiers/kasrkin/etc? I don't think so. Same equipment, same level of training, except incorporated into a proper combined-arms force instead of used in suicide drops without support.

Similar equipment, LEAGUES of difference in training (years of near-Astartes level indoctrination and tactical training, as opposed to what, simply surviving by either skill or luck), and again - DKoK are NOT combined arms. They're predominantly siege regiments, and lack mobility - which is great in the situations they find themselves in, but they would be terrible in any kind of scouting, light infantry, or tip of the spear type missions. I'm not saying Scions would be better than the Krieg at sieges and full frontal assaults, but that's because that's not their job.

Why are you obsessed with taking a hammer and a scalpel, and then calling the scalpel bad because it can't smash a brick?

Also ironic you say "suicide drops", when it's the Krieg Grenadiers who have often upwards of 80% casualties, and the Scions have far higher rates of survival.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Resistant to corruption, yes. Mentally more acute in terms of battle tactics? No.
However, one only has to mention Grey Knights, who haven't had a single member fall, unlike the Sisters, who have had at least one.

In terms of battle tactics I do have some reserved. I do think that Space Marines are probably more tactically sound then Sisters of Battle, but there is a high level of varience between Chapters. Flesh Tearers aren't well known for their strategical genius. Sister of the Sacred Rose though are known to highly gifted in that domain. While on average, Space Marines are probably have more tactical and strategical acumen, some Sisters probably match them rather well.

There's always a "some", but it's not wrong that Space Marines, in general, are far better tactically than Sisters.

I'm not convinced that Imperial Guard commanders are worst then Space Marines ones. Obviously, both operate vastly different force. At most a Space Marine officer will lead about a thousand men. An Imperial Guard high staff offcier will command millions if not even more. A Space Marine commander must command his forces in very different theatres of war from space battles to planet side passing by special operations. Most Imperial Guard officers have a much more limited field of expertise. Imperial Guard officers outnumber Space Marines officer to such a degree, it's difficult to compare them either. Overall, I would say the pool of talent from which the Imperial Guard can draw is so vast that at the organisational level, the Guard possess greater tactical acumen then the Space Marines.

I'm comparing battlefield tactics, not overall theatre of war ones. In such a field, Space Marines are superior, due to their combat officers, and even regular troops, being possessed of great tactical skill and the experience gained from decades, if not centuries, of warfare. Imperial Guard battlefield officers don't have that kind of experience.

I'm working on averages when I say "Space Marines are tactically smarter than guardsmen" - so even if we factor in the massive numbers of the Guard, and as a result, how many high level tacticians they must have, there's countless more who have hardly any tactical training at all. Guardsmen have a massive range of skill level, whereas Marines are far smaller in range, and their range is consistently high.

Racerguy180 wrote:You took them seriously before?

Krieg & Scions have radically different dispositions, so comparing them is an exercise in futility.

Do you compare your basic grunt/artilleryman/engineer to a Delta member or Spetsnaz? No, that would be ridiculous.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

Exactly.The lack of combined arms isn't a negative in the terms of 40k campaigns. Sure, it'll suck if you get put in the wrong battlefield, or the enemy have different forces to what you expected, or if you're trying to rebel, but that doesn't really happen with Scions.

Any weakness one army has, another covers it. They do completely different jobs, so trying to compare the job of one regiment to another is completely pointless.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:And you clearly haven't read Vraks, aswell as not having read this thread:

And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.

I saw that, and disagreed with it strongly.
Yes, MOST of the time, the Imperium fights wars of attrition. They have regiments built for that (Krieg, Cadian, Valhallan) However, that's not to say that the Imperium NEVER fights special-operations warfare, where elite troops are vitally important. If we were to make such a claim that "the Imperium NEVER fights non-meatgrinder battles, and so elite units would be useless", then that's calling the Space Marines useless too - and I really don't think that's the case.

Your claims that "a regiment NEEDS to be mixed, durable, easy to maintain, and fanatically loyal" are based on your belief that the Imperium only fights meatgrinder wars. They do not. That's what a line or siege regiment should be. A light infantry regiment doesn't need that. A drop troop regiment doesn't need that. A cavalry regiment doesn't need that. A mechanised infantry regiment doesn't need that.

The only criteria of what a good regiment should be is "can they perform the job required of them?" In both cases, the Scions and Krieg fulfil this.

So now you ignore, logistics, the problem with warfare against the enemies of the IoM, the fact that Adeptus Astartes are allready the special ops, that special ops for scions generally is in conjunction with the Inquisition, etc.
No my points still stands that these are the relevant criteria, and you Offered nothing to debunk any of these measurements.
Also what are scions if not fanatical aswell so that is again showing that you didn't read propperly.

Not Online!!! wrote:
So now you ignore, logistics, the problem with warfare against the enemies of the IoM, the fact that Adeptus Astartes are allready the special ops, that special ops for scions generally is in conjunction with the Inquisition, etc.
No my points still stands that these are the relevant criteria, and you Offered nothing to debunk any of these measurements.
Also what are scions if not fanatical aswell so that is again showing that you didn't read propperly.

Not really? Scions perform largely similar roles as the Astartes.

I'm seeing what you wrote, and I'm seeing a vast misunderstanding of both what the Imperial Guard is (a diverse and varied organisation with regiments tailored for specific roles that others cannot achieve) and what Scions are.

Honestly, this post here seems incredibly disjointed.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
So now you ignore, logistics, the problem with warfare against the enemies of the IoM, the fact that Adeptus Astartes are allready the special ops, that special ops for scions generally is in conjunction with the Inquisition, etc.
No my points still stands that these are the relevant criteria, and you Offered nothing to debunk any of these measurements.
Also what are scions if not fanatical aswell so that is again showing that you didn't read propperly.

Not really? Scions perform largely similar roles as the Astartes.

I'm seeing what you wrote, and I'm seeing a vast misunderstanding of both what the Imperial Guard is (a diverse and varied organisation with regiments tailored for specific roles that others cannot achieve) and what Scions are.

Honestly, this post here seems incredibly disjointed.

Again, that's the issue, SPECIALISATION IS AFTER SOME POINT UNSUSTAINABLE IN COST EFFECTIVENESS:

A specialized Regiment has excactly one use.
A regular Regiment has more then 1 use, they can fullfill a vast ammount of roles and win out compared to the specialized regiment in 80-90% battle situations.

A specialized Regiment requires specialized equipment, Specialized Equipment is A expensive B difficult to get the hands on, C maintenance and Supply intensive.
A non specialized Regiment might require more diffrent parts but is not out of fighting strength because one key supply type is out.And if used with low maintenace equipment, (E.G. Chimeras f.e.) still a more usefull tool and combat reliable overall.

A specialized regiment requires constant support from other units, making it harder to use.
A mixed regiment can form AD HOC formation with other mixed Regiments, achieving a similar specialised effect whilest still maintaining other branches. (ALSO CALLED KAMPFGRUPPEN)

Logistics for the imperium are at best ehhh and at worst completely unreliableto cut off, even worse when the regiment requires one specific weapon type, Hellguns or Carapace armor f.e.
there are way more worlds to supply flak armr from f.e.

SO my points still stand, the best regiments from the IoM perspective are regiments that are:

- Durable
- Mixed (in order to allow for ad hoc formations and general lessening of supply issues)
- Maintenance easy (for allowing a formation to remain combat effecive longer)
- Fanatical / or of high morale.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Again, that's the issue, SPECIALISATION IS AFTER SOME POINT UNSUSTAINABLE IN COST EFFECTIVENESS:

Only if their role can be achieved by a less specialised force for less effort/resources.
However, this is not the case with the Scions. They can achieve goals that would take less specialised forces far more in terms of manpower, time, effort, and resources. Scions can win battles that take other forces weeks. They can perform operations that would be simply impractical for others.

A specialized Regiment has excactly one use.
A regular Regiment has more then 1 use, they can fullfill a vast ammount of roles and win out compared to the specialized regiment in 80-90% battle situations.

But that specialised regiment can perform that one use better than the less specialised one. The "regular" regiment (of which there aren't many of in the Imperial Guard, because each regiment is intended to be specialised) might be able to engage in more types of warfare, but will not be better than a regiment DESIGNED for that role.

You point out that "a generalist regiment would win 80% more battles than a specialised one", but this is only true if you assume that the specialised one is fighting battles where it isn't specialised. The specialised one beats the non-specialist handily in their specific field - and guess where the specialist regiment is deployed?

A specialized Regiment requires specialized equipment, Specialized Equipment is A expensive B difficult to get the hands on, C maintenance and Supply intensive.
A non specialized Regiment might require more diffrent parts but is not out of fighting strength because one key supply type is out.And if used with low maintenace equipment, (E.G. Chimeras f.e.) still a more usefull tool and combat reliable overall.

The Scions come from an incredibly wealthy and well supplied organisation. Priority is given to them over the other regiments, because the Scions are good at what they do, and will use the specialised equipment better.

Sure, your mixed regiment might be operational even if it's missing all it's fuel, but even with it's fuel, it's inferior to the specialist. Your whole scenario of "specialists suck if they don't have their equipment" is nice and all, but it simply doesn't apply to the Scions because their organisation and close ties to the Administratum mean they rarely don't have all their necessary equipment - unlike "normal" guardsmen.

A specialized regiment requires constant support from other units, making it harder to use.
A mixed regiment can form AD HOC formation with other mixed Regiments, achieving a similar specialised effect whilest still maintaining other branches. (ALSO CALLED KAMPFGRUPPEN)

A specialist only requires support when the mission requires more than their own speciality. The mixed regiment will never have the same impact as a fully specialised regiment, even if they band up with other regiments, but will just do an inferior job. The mixed regiment can do multiple things, but why would you bother with having three mixed regiments doing an okay job, when you can have three different specialist regiments working together to combine their separate skills for a great job?

Heard of jack of all trades, master of none?

Logistics for the imperium are at best ehhh and at worst completely unreliableto cut off, even worse when the regiment requires one specific weapon type, Hellguns or Carapace armor f.e.
there are way more worlds to supply flak armr from f.e.

For normal guardsmen, yes. Scions aren't normal guardsmen. Scions have very close ties and priority listing with the Administratum and Departmento Munitorum - they will be well equipped, well supplied, and treated as a high priority because of their ability and skills.

On your normal regiments, yes, specialism certainly has this drawback, but the Scions are exempt from this.

SO my points still stand, the best regiments from the IoM perspective are regiments that are:

- Durable
- Mixed (in order to allow for ad hoc formations and general lessening of supply issues)
- Maintenance easy (for allowing a formation to remain combat effecive longer)
- Fanatical / or of high morale.

Again, only for "normal" regiments. You also seem to ignore, or simply not know, that MOST regiments in the IoM are specialised. You don't get combined arms regiments that often. Sure, you have some which have a bit of both (siege, mechanised, etc etc), but these are the minority, and lack things in their own rights (siege regiments are often slow moving, and have incredibly high casualty rates, leading to high turnover of experienced troops and consequently a waste of time training them, and mechanised regiments often lack in manpower - what units they have is limited to their transport capacity for their vehicles.

Krieg are good at one thing. Scions are good at another. There is no "best regiment". Maybe you can do a "best troopers", but that would be very different.

Only if their role can be achieved by a less specialised force for less effort/resources.
However, this is not the case with the Scions. They can achieve goals that would take less specialised forces far more in terms of manpower, time, effort, and resources. Scions can win battles that take other forces weeks. They can perform operations that would be simply impractical for others.

which is the case in a large scale war 90 % of the time.

"in a fight between 2 mans he with one more bullet in the magazin wins"

But that specialised regiment can perform that one use better than the less specialised one. The "regular" regiment (of which there aren't many of in the Imperial Guard, because each regiment is intended to be specialised) might be able to engage in more types of warfare, but will not be better than a regiment DESIGNED for that role.

You point out that "a generalist regiment would win 80% more battles than a specialised one", but this is only true if you assume that the specialised one is fighting battles where it isn't specialised. The specialised one beats the non-specialist handily in their specific field - and guess where the specialist regiment is deployed?

I know how the guard is built and i know that to deny traitors more access to differing units most regiments ARE not mixed, however those that are vastly perform better.

Also over a campaign how often do you rekon you can use the special regiment in their specific field and how often the general regiment will win out?
Point general regiment again.

A specialist only requires support when the mission requires more than their own speciality. The mixed regiment will never have the same impact as a fully specialised regiment, even if they band up with other regiments, but will just do an inferior job. The mixed regiment can do multiple things, but why would you bother with having three mixed regiments doing an okay job, when you can have three different specialist regiments working together to combine their separate skills for a great job?

Heard of jack of all trades, master of none?

Look up what a Kampfgruppe is, or also known as "Combat Team".

Additionally also that 3 mixed regiments can form into 3 adhoc specialised regiments without the problem of not knowing the modus operandi of other units, therefore overall having better communication and coordination.Both off which key for an actual battle.

For normal guardsmen, yes. Scions aren't normal guardsmen. Scions have very close ties and priority listing with the Administratum and Departmento Munitorum - they will be well equipped, well supplied, and treated as a high priority because of their ability and skills.

On your normal regiments, yes, specialism certainly has this drawback, but the Scions are exempt from this.

And they get better supplied through the warp how exactly?

So again they suffer from the supplies even moreso and are most certainly not excluded from Supply issue, or do they now magically gak their carapace armour after breakfest nails?

Again, only for "normal" regiments. You also seem to ignore, or simply not know, that MOST regiments in the IoM are specialised. You don't get combined arms regiments that often. Sure, you have some which have a bit of both (siege, mechanised, etc etc), but these are the minority, and lack things in their own rights (siege regiments are often slow moving, and have incredibly high casualty rates, leading to high turnover of experienced troops and consequently a waste of time training them, and mechanised regiments often lack in manpower - what units they have is limited to their transport capacity for their vehicles.

Krieg are good at one thing. Scions are good at another. There is no "best regiment". Maybe you can do a "best troopers", but that would be very different.

I know how regiments are built up, i also however know how Krieg recruits, turnover rate is nothing.

Also there is very well a best regiment, that is the one which overall performs best in any circumstance and acceptable when out of their comfort zone.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Only if their role can be achieved by a less specialised force for less effort/resources.
However, this is not the case with the Scions. They can achieve goals that would take less specialised forces far more in terms of manpower, time, effort, and resources. Scions can win battles that take other forces weeks. They can perform operations that would be simply impractical for others.

which is the case in a large scale war 90 % of the time.

Not at all, because you don't put your specialised forces in an open war, unless you're desperate, clueless, or trying to make an obtuse point.

You put a mix of line infantry, siege infantry, mechanised, armoured, and artillery in a large scale war. If Scions are present, it is as the tip of the spear, not the entire war. The only reason I can seem to think you're so obsessed with trying to put Scions in an open war is because you're deliberately misconstruing the argument.

Scions aren't supposed to fight large scale war, so the fact that they can't is irrelevant.

"in a fight between 2 mans he with one more bullet in the magazin wins"

I disagree with that. You could have 100 more bullets, if you get shot first, you won't get to use any of them. The one who shoots faster, and more accurately, wins.

I know how the guard is built and i know that to deny traitors more access to differing units most regiments ARE not mixed, however those that are vastly perform better.

Citation needed. What data do you have that outlines, in universe, that mixed regiments are more effective. Because most of the time, regiments are broken up anyway into smaller operational units, and support other regiments who have done the same. You don't just have one regiment, unless that regiment is doing a specific job.
In open war, as you seem to be focused on, you hardly ever see one regiment deployed, and the combination of regiments work to support eachother, effectively creating the same outcome as mixed regiments.

But please, if there's any actual in-universe data, I'd be interested to hear it.

Also over a campaign how often do you rekon you can use the special regiment in their specific field and how often the general regiment will win out?
Point general regiment again.

Depends what the campaign is. Is it a solo regiment campaign (unlikely)? What is the nature of the campaign (siege? defence? assault? recon? infiltration?) What is the environment? Who are the enemy?

In my opinion, the specialist regiments would be best, because they're tailored for the mission at hand. If they're not the right regiments, then that was a fault of the Munitorum, not on the regiment itself. While a mixed regiment IS versatile, it's simply not as good as a tailored regiment at certain things. A mixed regiment will never be as good at siegecraft as a Krieg Siege Regiment. A mixed regiment will never be as mobile as a light infantry regiment. A mixed regiment will struggle to pull off the same high-speed, high-risk precision strikes as Scions.

Look up what a Kampfgruppe is, or also known as "Combat Team".

Additionally also that 3 mixed regiments can form into 3 adhoc specialised regiments without the problem of not knowing the modus operandi of other units, therefore overall having better communication and coordination.Both off which key for an actual battle.

Hard disagree. I don't care how many mixed regiments you have, they will simply not have the training, skills, equipment and arsenal to perform certain roles to the degree of that which a specialist regiment can. You could have ten mixed regiments, but they will not be Tanith scouts. You could have ten mixed regiments, but without the very specific equipment and unique training of Scions, they'll never be near as effective as a dedicated force of Scions. All you'll have is more men to throw at the problem - inferior men, with inferior training, with inferior equipment.

You also seem to ignore that three specialist regiments can combine to form a combined force themselves, with eachother's weaknesses covered by another specialist.

Communication and co-ordination are important, but even the most well combined team simply won't have the same skills and natural ability as specialist regiments. It's far more likely that three specialists will have good communication and co-ordination, than three mixed regiments suddenly magically gaining powers they've never been trained for.

For normal guardsmen, yes. Scions aren't normal guardsmen. Scions have very close ties and priority listing with the Administratum and Departmento Munitorum - they will be well equipped, well supplied, and treated as a high priority because of their ability and skills.

On your normal regiments, yes, specialism certainly has this drawback, but the Scions are exempt from this.

And they get better supplied through the warp how exactly?

Better Astropaths, Navigators, and carrying a lot of their equipment on their own vessels. The same way anyone is better supplied - higher priority means more resources expended to get them what they need.

So again they suffer from the supplies even moreso and are most certainly not excluded from Supply issue, or do they now magically gak their carapace armour after breakfest nails?

Simply incorrect. Scions ARE better equipped, and maintained, because of their elite status. Sorry, but that's how it is.

Also there is very well a best regiment, that is the one which overall performs best in any circumstance and acceptable when out of their comfort zone.

That's not what best means at all, and you know it. That's a very specific definition of best - you're asking "which is the regiment which is most versatile", not "best". This is because "best" is incredibly nebulous, and is incredibly poorly defined.

Look, you didn't even look up what a battlegroup / Kampfgruppe or Combat team is, ergo you clearly aren't willing to have an honest discussion and are here to fanboy.

Also Citation from the newest Codex , p9 (atleast in the german hardcase version on why the structure is unified and non mixed as a precauction) under "Regimentalorganisation"


Citation needed also on the better supply situation.
Citation needed on the overall better performance of specialist vs regulars (i gave an exemple why it is a bad idea overall in a large scale conflict, you just ignored it)
Citation needed on the better supply.
Citation needed on inter branch coordination, officers that don't have liasons are worse in that regards if they don't know strategy at hand. (Personal experience)


The quote, logistics and supply wins war was meant not the actual magazin but sofar you are beeing obstuse for the sake of it.
And again the adeptus munitorum would give the point to me, since they even equate the fighting strength of differing types of regiments overall to the same regardless off tank / artillery etc regiment, aswell in codex 8th edition P9.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Look, you didn't even look up what a battlegroup / Kampfgruppe or Combat team is, ergo you clearly aren't willing to have an honest discussion and are here to fanboy.

I did. It added nothing to the discussion, so I didn't mention it. I'm talking about 40k, it doesn't matter how effective real world stuff is.

Citation needed also on the better supply situation.

Scion codex.

Citation needed on the overall better performance of specialist vs regulars (i gave an exemple why it is a bad idea overall in a large scale conflict, you just ignored it)

No, I'm asking for you to prove that with in-universe statistics. You claimed that mixed units were more effective than specialist ones. Back that claim up.

Citation needed on the better supply.

Repeating yourself, but again, Scion codex.

Citation needed on inter branch coordination, officers that don't have liasons are worse in that regards if they don't know strategy at hand. (Personal experience)

I mean, it's pretty obvious, isn't it? We literally see examples of such commanders doing this in nearly ANY book featuring Guardsmen.
Examples:
Battle of Tyrok Fields, where Creed (despite only commanding a mechanised regiment himself) rallies other Cadian regiments beyond his own to utterly destroy the Volscani Cataphracts.
Siege of Vervunhive, Colonel Commisar Gaunt takes command of PDF, his own light infantry, Volpone heavy infantry, Armenian armoured tanks, and other specialist regiments to defeat the invaders of Vervunhive before other Imperial forces even arrive to support them.
Operation Thunderstorm, where multiple specialised Cadian regiments work together to push into Ork held territory to recover Yarrick's Baneblade in a suicide mission.

All examples of specialist regiments forming together and creating a force far stronger than the sum of their parts.

The quote, logistics and supply wins war was meant not the actual magazin but sofar you are beeing obstuse for the sake of it.

You were the one who gave the quote, and I showed how it's not correct. Don't blame me for pointing out your comment was poor. And again, it doesn't matter how good your logistics and supplies are if you get taken out of action by a quick, devastating single strike.

And again the adeptus munitorum would give the point to me, since they even equate the fighting strength of differing types of regiments overall to the same regardless off tank / artillery etc regiment, aswell in codex 8th edition P9.

Just read the Scion codex. It literally says the Scions are prioritised.
Maybe all Guardsmen regiments are, but Scions aren't standard regiments.

So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

Just read the Scion codex. It literally says the Scions are prioritised.

I would consider it the last source for claims you should use on any of this, because quite frankly it is ward level of GK stupid when one regards the overal situation of IG.

Also funnily enough nothing about supply priority is mentioned for Scions in the new codex.

And in case of other units, such as Kasrkin or Grenadiers or catachan devils which are part of their regiments, are part of regular regiments.

Also your exemple battles are all standard imperial type regiments propperly employed and with propper general staff, also ironically "heeresgruppe" in the german Codex.

All of the units listed there are regular regiments in the fashion laid out to prevent them of beeing effective enough to be a problem if they turn to chaos, which you didn't even know beforehand it seems:

Armoured Regiment, Artillery Regiment, Drop Regiment, Heavy Infantry REgiment, Hunter-killer Regiment, Lineinfantry Regiment, Light infantry Regiment, Mechanizd Infantry Regiment,Reconnaissance Regiment, Siege Regiment, and last but not least Abhuman Regiment.

These types exist overall for the Adeptus munitorum.

Also quotiung requires pages mister, i gave you mine you didn't bother too.

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

Grenadiers are deployed as part of the forefront of Krieg engagements, and suffer massive casualties as a result. The grenadiers are fine, I'd say inferior by a slight margin, but they don't fight in the same way that Scions do.

Kasrkin are, again, very much the same. I think they're better than the Krieg grenadiers, and are much closer to the Scions. I mean, aren't Kasrkin just basically Scions wearing Cadian-pattern armour and stuff, with a different style of training? In which case, they're as good as eachother - they fulfil the same roles, and have similar combat prowess. However, Kasrkin aren't all Cadians, and as far as I'm aware, form into specialised regiments, not just units within an existing regiment like the Krieg.

Basically, Scions and Kasrkin are about the same. I don't think anyone's disputing that. The important part is that this idea of a "best regiment" isn't really true at all, and that each regiment is good at different things.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

Grenadiers are deployed as part of the forefront of Krieg engagements, and suffer massive casualties as a result. The grenadiers are fine, I'd say inferior by a slight margin, but they don't fight in the same way that Scions do.

Kasrkin are, again, very much the same. I think they're better than the Krieg grenadiers, and are much closer to the Scions. I mean, aren't Kasrkin just basically Scions wearing Cadian-pattern armour and stuff, with a different style of training? In which case, they're as good as eachother - they fulfil the same roles, and have similar combat prowess. However, Kasrkin aren't all Cadians, and as far as I'm aware, form into specialised regiments, not just units within an existing regiment like the Krieg.

Basically, Scions and Kasrkin are about the same. I don't think anyone's disputing that. The important part is that this idea of a "best regiment" isn't really true at all, and that each regiment is good at different things.

Kaskin are more than a match for Scions

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tempestus_Scions

Thank you very much.

Exactly: kasrkin are what storm troopers should be. Same training, same equipment, better access to supporting units, and no idiotic fluff. The only thing $cions have is an insatiable lust for Snape's wand.

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

True, however I think it is generally accepted that the scions are a cut above the rest. Ignoring how the snuff porn hogwarts lore wouldn't actually really produce any force of military quality, scions are INTENDED to be portrayed by GW as the most elite soldiers an unmodified human could aspire to. This is achieved by the harshest training regimen short of the space marines and applied from a very young age... imagine if you had to go through BUD/S in high school. Other regiments of more "traditionally" recruited soldiers can get close, but the whole "being trained from essentially birth to be nothing but steel-eyed soldiers" gives scions an edge. If GW were better lore writers it would be portrayed better, but instead we get the absolute garbage that is the 7th edition scion codex.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers are taken from the best of the scions and nowhere else.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Just read the Scion codex. It literally says the Scions are prioritised.

I would consider it the last source for claims you should use on any of this, because quite frankly it is ward level of GK stupid when one regards the overal situation of IG.

Sorry, it's a source.

Also funnily enough nothing about supply priority is mentioned for Scions in the new codex.

It's mentioned about their closeness to the Departmento, is it not?

And in case of other units, such as Kasrkin or Grenadiers or catachan devils which are part of their regiments, are part of regular regiments.

What do you mean, "regular regiments"? There's no such thing - you don't have a "one-size-fits-all" (or if there is, it's incredibly non-standard).
Kasrkin, as far as I'm aware, are actually seperate organisational units, and Grenadiers and Devils, while attached to things like Line Infantry, Mechanised Infantry and suchlike, are not used in the same way as Scions and Kasrkin - they are used as shock trooper support for the rest of the army, not as a force unto themselves. Think of them as the tip of the spear, the edge of the knife, the head of the hammer, but Scions and Kasrkin ARE the scalpel, as well as fulfilling the same roles as the Grenadiers and Devils can.

Also your exemple battles are all standard imperial type regiments propperly employed and with propper general staff, also ironically "heeresgruppe" in the german Codex.

That's not a regiment. That's a battlegroup.

A regiment is a single collection of units for a specific purpose. A battlegroup is a collection of regiments - like all of my examples show. The Vervunhive example is multiple specialised regiments (Volpone, Tanith, Armenian) forming a collective which is stronger.

All of the units listed there are regular regiments in the fashion laid out to prevent them of beeing effective enough to be a problem if they turn to chaos, which you didn't even know beforehand it seems:

Armoured Regiment, Artillery Regiment, Drop Regiment, Heavy Infantry REgiment, Hunter-killer Regiment, Lineinfantry Regiment, Light infantry Regiment, Mechanizd Infantry Regiment,Reconnaissance Regiment, Siege Regiment, and last but not least Abhuman Regiment.

These types exist overall for the Adeptus munitorum.

Yes, I don't see a single "mixed" regiment on there, do you? This is what I've been pointing out to you: the Imperium very rarely HAS mixed regiments. Any battles you're seeing are most likely a mix of multiple specialist regiments working in concert. All these regiments you've so kindly listed here ARE specialists - not mixed.

Thank you for proving my point.

It's mentioned about their closeness to the Departmento, is it not?

Take a look at the codex seriously: they are on the same level as the Militarium Regimentos. Nothing mentioned at all.

Yes, I don't see a single "mixed" regiment on there, do you? This is what I've been pointing out to you: the Imperium very rarely HAS mixed regiments. Any battles you're seeing are most likely a mix of multiple specialist regiments working in concert. All these regiments you've so kindly listed here ARE specialists - not mixed.

I again reference P9 that "veteran" Regiments that were getting a armored company etc for support grow eventually into a Regiment on it's own which is then mixed.

and due to the nature that regiments get folded into one another is also condoning this fact.

DKoK. That amount of dedication and sacrifice pushes them above and beyond. Without fear of death, there is little that these guys cannot do.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Kaskin are more than a match for Scions

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tempestus_Scions

Thank you very much.

Did you read it? It points out they're a variant of Scion, not Scions themselves. Catachan Devils are nothing LIKE how Scions are equipped, but are treated as a Scion equivalent due to their elite status. Grenadiers, much the same.

The point I'm making is that the actual Scions have a very different type of objective and mission compared to the Grenadiers, and that both are fine at what they do.

Peregrine wrote:Exactly: kasrkin are what storm troopers should be. Same training, same equipment, better access to supporting units, and no idiotic fluff. The only thing $cions have is an insatiable lust for Snape's wand.

Eh, both fine to me. Seems like your whole "Scions are terrible" point isn't at all about the actual effectiveness of the Scions (which is probably the same as Kasrkin) and more just because you have a specific dislike of one part of their fluff.

It's okay to not like that part of their fluff, but ignoring the rest of what they do because of that is pretty petty.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

It's mentioned about their closeness to the Departmento, is it not?

Take a look at the codex seriously: they are on the same level as the Militarium Regimentos. Nothing mentioned at all.

I disagree, but I won't sway you further.

Yes, I don't see a single "mixed" regiment on there, do you? This is what I've been pointing out to you: the Imperium very rarely HAS mixed regiments. Any battles you're seeing are most likely a mix of multiple specialist regiments working in concert. All these regiments you've so kindly listed here ARE specialists - not mixed.

I again reference P9 that "veteran" Regiments that were getting a armored company etc for support grow eventually into a Regiment on it's own which is then mixed.

and due to the nature that regiments get folded into one another is also condoning this fact.

Yes, but these are non-standard. The VAST majority of regiments are specialised. Not the other way around. And those mixed regiments suffer greatly from increased logistical strain, because they need to support more varied elements of their army. If they don't get all the varied bits and pieces for their varied forces, then that force will be divided. Meanwhile, the specialised regiments only require standardised maintenance for that type of regiment. No need to mess about with "well, we have some Leman Russes, and some artillery, and some infantry" - just "we're infantry. We need infantry supplies". Logistically, in the context of the Imperium, mixed regiments are at a disadvantage, as they require ironically more specialist care for their generalist approach.

w1zard wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
So many words spent ignoring the fact that many regiments have their own storm troopers that can do all those specialized jobs. Kasrkin, grenadiers, etc are just as well trained and equipped, without the idiotic torture-Hogwarts fluff.

True, however I think it is generally accepted that the scions are a cut above the rest. Ignoring how the snuff porn hogwarts lore wouldn't actually really produce any force of military quality, scions are INTENDED to be portrayed by GW as the most elite soldiers an unmodified human could aspire to. This is achieved by the harshest training regimen short of the space marines and applied from a very young age... imagine if you had to go through BUD/S in high school. Other regiments of more "traditionally" recruited soldiers can get close, but the whole "being trained from essentially birth to be nothing but steel-eyed soldiers" gives scions an edge. If GW were better lore writers it would be portrayed better, but instead we get the absolute garbage that is the 7th edition scion codex.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers are taken from the best of the scions and nowhere else.

They are intended to be something, but they fail utterly. Kasrkin/grenadiers/etc attempt to be that thing and succeed. $cions, are at best, on par with other regiments and not anything to fanboy over.

Not Online!!! wrote:
And you clearly lack understanding that the type of warfare the IOM is having most of the time, E.G. MEATGRINDER, for that you CAN'T effectively use ELITE TROOPS, (Real world implication WW1 sturmtruppen programm weaking the german army overall) So your elite troops are overall worthless for the imperium beyond beeing lapdog for a inquisitor, but that is besides the point, the question is what is the best Regiment and in this case it needs to be the following:
Preferably mixed,
Durable,
Maintenance easy
and most importantly Fanatical,

Guess which regiments fit that bill.

The counterpoint being for Sturmtruppen is that the German Army in WWI had no chance of victory in the meatgrinder (they simply did not have the manpower, time, or combat effectiveness to overcome the British, French, and US forces on the Western Front at that time), and that therefore the increased combat efficacy of Sturmtruppen gave them a chance they otherwise would not have. Standard combined arms for the German military in WWI had repeatedly shown themselves unable to take enough ground to force a breakthrough, and even on the defense they were taking increasingly high casualties holding positions against an increasingly effective British Army (at this point France was not taking the offensive).

As such, the Sturmtruppen gave the German Army a capability it otherwise totally lacked, which in turn gave them a slim chance at knocking out France and scoring an unlikely victory. Sure, it weakened the rest of the army to create them, but when the rest of the army is losing anyway with no chance of victory...? What do you have to loose?

Similarly WWII outright shows some of the advantages of special forces in an attritional, full-scale force. WWII is also much closer in combat style to what we see in 40k, with widespread aerial, armoured, and mechanised/motorised forces with a great increase in manouevre warfare. If we look at the very first raids of the British Commandos- for the cost of training and maintaining 2000 elite troops, the successful raids in Norway ended up increasing the German garrison by approximately 70,000 (on top of the original 300,000) and destroyed and captured a large number of German ships, soldiers, and industrial plants in Norway. That is something troops not trained for the task simply could not do as effectively. Those 70,000 soldiers are 70,000 soldiers not fighting elsewhere in Europe- 4 divisions is nothing to be sniffed at.

So here we can clearly see two different types of elite forces- line grenadier units, and commandos. Both allowed capabilities otherwise lacking in their respective armies.

As an aside- the 40k regimental system is built upon the British regimental system, in which the regiment is a ceremonial peacetime unit, and only very rarely a combat unit. Regiments are broken into their individual battalion, company, and platoon-equivalent units and combined into battle groups for combat operations to make combined-arms units (literally exactly like the Imperial Guard fluff for several editions now). Note that British Army regiments are all specialised to a specific type, by-and-large, but combat deployments have been combined-arms since at least WWI. This is best shown by the British Army using regiments, but deploying in brigades. I would say the only non-specialised regiment, other than mixed regiments, is the standard line infantry. Infantry are expected to be able to do just about any task, but they do few of them well. However, infantry are absolutely essential to holding ground, and therefore almost every combined-arms force needs to be built around a core of infantry of some kind. Every other regiment is specialised to some role, such as armoured regiments or artillery.

Perhaps this is why most of the most famous regiments in the Imperial Guard are infantry regiments (Cadian 8th, Catachan 2nd etc)- they are versatile and vital, and the best examples can pull of feats usually only attributed to specialist regiments.

Did any of you really think it would be productive to debate a person who believes that one-dimensional, emotionally-stunted, hyper-violent, gullible, manbabies are "superior in every physical and mental way" to regular humans?

Yikes. All of them.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Did any of you really think it would be productive to debate a person who believes that one-dimensional, emotionally-stunted, hyper-violent, gullible, manbabies are "superior in every physical and mental way" to regular humans?

Yikes. All of them.

I mean, please, show me an unaugmented human who is smarter AND stronger than an Astartes?

I'm not saying Space Marines are *better*, because as you say, they are emotionally stunted and largely one-dimensional (a few aren't, but the vast majority seem very duty-over-personality driven), and those are negative CHARACTER traits, but purely on physical and mental processing? Yeah, they are better at those things.
I don't see what's wrong with saying that.

It's way less cringey now that you've clarified that "every... mental way" just means "smarter" and not "every mental way".

 Excommunicatus wrote:
It's way less cringey now that you've clarified that "every... mental way" just means "smarter" and not "every mental way".

Yeah, I can see how that part got lost. I'm not saying at all that Astartes are these perfect characters, with flawless personalities and such - I'm just saying that they think faster, have more knowledge up there, more tactics, strategies and of course, are probably stronger physically than any normal human. That's not to say they're perfect characters in the slightest, unless you think that being a "good character" means being the toughest, strongest, and smartest - which I'd massively disagree on.

Neither one is as better overall, but they both excel in their respective specialties. last time I checked, they can support each other in the prosecution of a skirmish/battle/war. It has been proven over and over that Imperial(factions) fight wars supported by other factions. Didn't DKOK need help on Vraks? Didn't Scions need help on Vigilus? it's almost like they have gaps/weaknesses that can be mitigated by support.

You will have to be more specific. There were many different named regiments of Scions on Vigilus, and nobody knows how many unnamed.
There were at least a few regiments of Zetic Tygers that held strong for quite a while, holding places of import. Casualties required the Tempestor Primes split the rest into various Killteams.
There were Deltic Lions, Iotan Dragons, Lambdon Lions, Karpic Eagles. Those ones were notable for their VIP extractions.
Under Tempestor Prime Liocardus, the Betic Centaurs were successful with VIP extraction as well as preventing GSC assassination attempts of figureheads.
Antrell Lions and Zetic Tygers protected the lives of Aquilarian council members from an Aberrant horde.
Some other Antrell Lions lead an attack on the Eldar that were killing Tzeentch-tainted populace (something Imperials didn’t know) and those Antrell Lions killed the Eldar, including an Autarch. This got Eldar angry and the Antrell Lions guarding the Senate Council were killed by a larger Eldar band.
Plenty of others I can’t remember, too. I haven’t fully gotten though Ablaze yet, either.

I would consider it the last source for claims you should use on any of this, because quite frankly it is ward level of GK stupid when one regards the overal situation of IG.

Uh, let’s just dismiss the biggest authority on something because I don’t like an author, Hur dur. It doesn’t matter what the condition of what the overall IG is, the book isn’t about them. I don’t read Codex Chaos Demons for IG in the same vein.

Also funnily enough nothing about supply priority is mentioned for Scions in the new codex.

On page 14, it tells how the Ordo Tempestus, a more cherished logistical arm, is is subfaction of the Administratum. They are the ones that make sure that Scions get the best equipment and supplies possible.

*Correction on page number. Misclick.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Did any of you really think it would be productive to debate a person who believes that one-dimensional, emotionally-stunted, hyper-violent, gullible, manbabies are "superior in every physical and mental way" to regular humans?

Yikes. All of them.

I mean, please, show me an unaugmented human who is smarter AND stronger than an Astartes?

Is Saint Celestine unaugmented? Technically, she's human and was never genetically modified. She's not a psyker either, but she's definitely not a normal human being. She's some sort of magical person thanks to the power of faith. That power is something inherant to her. She was never "modified" to have stronger faith in the Emperor and that's from where her magical powers come from. She is stronger than the vast majority of Space Marines and smarter then the vast majority of them too. Does she count? I would be inclined to say she doesn't count de to the fact she's just too unique and weird to be considered an unaugmented human.