I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. He Man (along with an obscure Aussie kangaroo live action show called Skippy) is literally my first childhood fandom/pop culture memory and it holds a special place for me.
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. .
I can only imagine how horrifying it would be if a show that was famous for it's moral life messages in each episode was rebooted in a socially conscious way...
And I have to imagine it, because I honestly can't see how anyone who ever actually watched the original show would be remotely surprised by it.
The she ra show is planting all the seeds for he man that the old shows had. Hordak (the creator of skeletor and his master/mentor) was on etheria when it got banished to another dimension. She ra (adora) is descended from the elders (eternians) and was pulled from a portal as a baby to etheria. Which lines up with her being adams long lost twin sister.
Just saying, she ra, like voltron, does all the old stuff justice while updating it to be good. He man could use the extra depth of character on their cast like both of those shows have done.
Firstly, it's Kevin Smith, it isn't going to be like She Ra, let it go.
Secondly, I've found a slightly broader synopsis that suggests it'll pick up on threads from the old series but also be set some decades further on. So "doing a Picard" a bit I guess.
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. .
I can only imagine how horrifying it would be if a show that was famous for it's moral life messages in each episode was rebooted in a socially conscious way...
And I have to imagine it, because I honestly can't see how anyone who ever actually watched the original show would be remotely surprised by it.
Being "woke" should not be confused with any semblance of actual morality, a coherent set of social values, or the messages the original He Man series had. I can't really get into it any further as it's probably off topic.
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. He Man (along with an obscure Aussie kangaroo live action show called Skippy) is literally my first childhood fandom/pop culture memory and it holds a special place for me.
Yes, god forbid a show from the 80s about selling toys be remade in anything resembling good story telling and diverse cast/themes!!!!!
hotsauceman1 wrote: Yes, god forbid a show from the 80s about selling toys be remade in anything resembling good story telling and diverse cast/themes!!!!!
I have no problem with either diverse casts or themes nor with good story telling; please tilt at another windmill, good sir. If anything, being "woke" in the pejorative way is counterproductive to the latter in actual practice given recent show remakes/reboots/additions touting that aspect of their production (like Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, etc) in place of good story telling. I can't comment on She-Ra specifically as I didn't watch it.
I would say pick any 2 episodes of old she ra and 2 of voltron then watch any 2 episode of new she ra or voltron and the rise in quality, cast, and story telling will be self evident. He-man 100% could use the same redo.
As a fan of the widely-loathed live action adaptation, I gotta say I'm looking forward to this being a dumpster fire of a show at least as much as it being a quality product.
So it says "Anime" series and not animated.
Interesting, I know quite a few people are loathed to to like netflix if they like Anime, but I like how they are making their own now
My kids liked watching the new versions of She-Ra and Voltron, and I watched a bunch of episodes with them, too. If Masters of the Universe is of the same quality, then that's good enough for me, as a guy who still has lots of He Man figures packed away which will probably end up in the hands of my son in a year or two.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As a fan of the widely-loathed live action adaptation, I gotta say I'm looking forward to this being a dumpster fire of a show at least as much as it being a quality product.
I'm sort of hoping that they approach it with a certain amount of self-awareness for the source material... Because the original cartoon ultimately wasn't actually that much less of a dumpster fire than the movie. Constantly-recycled animation, absolutely absurd stories, the exact same sound effects used in every single other cartoon of the era... Also, watching it back now, Skeletor is really a lot more camp than I noticed as a 10-year-old. I mean, I loved it as a kid, and the episode I watched with my wife a few months ago was entertaining. I'm just under no illusions that the original was actually good.
So any new version should (IMO) be stupid and loud and dialed up to 1000.
He-Man was life when I was a kid - but I admit it's not aged as well as say, Transformers.
I also enjoyed the Dolph Lundgren movie (moo!), and the 2000's update.
New Adventures? Never forgave that for being so bad. Maybe just as I was exactly the right age for He-Man, I was exactly the wrong age for the New Adventures.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: As a fan of the widely-loathed live action adaptation, I gotta say I'm looking forward to this being a dumpster fire of a show at least as much as it being a quality product.
I'm sort of hoping that they approach it with a certain amount of self-awareness for the source material... Because the original cartoon ultimately wasn't actually that much less of a dumpster fire than the movie. Constantly-recycled animation, absolutely absurd stories, the exact same sound effects used in every single other cartoon of the era... Also, watching it back now, Skeletor is really a lot more camp than I noticed as a 10-year-old. I mean, I loved it as a kid, and the episode I watched with my wife a few months ago was entertaining. I'm just under no illusions that the original was actually good.
So any new version should (IMO) be stupid and loud and dialed up to 1000.
I cannot suggest the "Power of Greyskull" or "Toys That Made Us" episodes on Netflix with regards to the original enough.
Was fascinating to hear about the cartoon that I saw in syndication as a kid.
According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
warboss wrote: According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
Is that confirmed? It sounds like one of those rumors that would pop up on angry blogs.
warboss wrote: According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
Well, regarding Kevin Smith and anime, it might be worth revisiting the short lived Clerks: The Animated Series [Which culminated in car chases, bears, Eddie Murphy and Judge Reinhold. No, there isn't an explanation for that]
This one will be fun to sit back and watch the fireworks. I was out of the country when the original started and didn't see it as a kid, so don't care about the show itself. The episodes I have seen were awful. So depending how serious it takes itself and how serious the fans take it, this should be something absolutely hilarious if mildly disappointing.
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. He Man (along with an obscure Aussie kangaroo live action show called Skippy) is literally my first childhood fandom/pop culture memory and it holds a special place for me.
I'll take any amount of CW like hamfisted preaching the blindingly obvious so long as Kev doesnt find an excuse to shoehorn Depp in
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. .
I can only imagine how horrifying it would be if a show that was famous for it's moral life messages in each episode was rebooted in a socially conscious way...
And I have to imagine it, because I honestly can't see how anyone who ever actually watched the original show would be remotely surprised by it.
Being "woke" should not be confused with any semblance of actual morality, a coherent set of social values, or the messages the original He Man series had. I can't really get into it any further as it's probably off topic.
--Drags thread off topic to grind personal axe.
--Gets called on dragging thread off topic.
--Hey come on everyone, we need to immediately stop dragging the thread off topic right now!
I'll take any amount of CW like hamfisted preaching the blindingly obvious so long as Kev doesnt find an excuse to shoehorn Depp in
I do enjoy Kevin Smith's Flash episodes...
oh aye, he can still deliver within a set framework, its just some of his own idea's of late have been a bit iffy, fingers crossed this will be the latter and not involve any wacky space pirates or walrus men
In terms of Kevin Smith as a content creator, I do consider him to be overrated.
Whilst his films are, for the most part, enjoyable, I don't hold them in the same very high regard as others. Rather I find them, well, competent, but no more.
Here? I'll take competence from a fan of the original, every time. No need to get fancy.
Batman cacaphony is kevin smiths batman story. One of the worst batman comics there is excluding golden age garbage. Just saying. Sometimes hes way too close to the source material and feths it all up.
warboss wrote: According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
Lance845 wrote: Batman cacaphony is kevin smiths batman story. One of the worst batman comics there is excluding golden age garbage. Just saying. Sometimes hes way too close to the source material and feths it all up.
a curse on you ! I'd pretty much successfully forgot that till you dredged it back up
(I only know ASBatman because someone literally grabbed me, shoved the comic into my hand, and said, "you have to read this gak.")
people say Frank is crazy, but selling a Sin City story about some deluded dress up sex cult as a Bat-Story most likely paid a fair few medical bills (and whilst its terrible its not the worst thing he ever did to Bats)
(I only know ASBatman because someone literally grabbed me, shoved the comic into my hand, and said, "you have to read this gak.")
people say Frank is crazy, but selling a Sin City story about some deluded dress up sex cult as a Bat-Story most likely paid a fair few medical bills (and whilst its terrible its not the worst thing he ever did to Bats)
Well, that's only because DC had a moment of sanity before letting him use Batman for Holy Terror.
warboss wrote: According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
I liked your previous bait better.
Should have doubled down on it. Teela is now black, disabled, and takes a knee during the Eternian anthem. One of the major first season arcs is about her struggle to install wheelchair ramps in Grayskull, set to be thwarted due to its status as a major historical monument.
warboss wrote: According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
I liked your previous bait better.
Should have doubled down on it. Teela is now black, disabled, and takes a knee during the Eternian anthem. One of the major first season arcs is about her struggle to install wheelchair ramps in Grayskull, set to be thwarted due to its status as a major historical monument.
Actually given Teela is a red head there’s a 70% chance she will now be black
oh aye, he can still deliver within a set framework, its just some of his own idea's of late have been a bit iffy, fingers crossed this will be the latter and not involve any wacky space pirates or walrus men
Wait, why not? Wacky space pirates + He-Man sounds hilarious
I'm from a generation after He-Man faded into obscurity so I really only know it from old Cartoon Network/Boomerang reruns and internet memes. Along with some of the old comics my uncle gave me when I was little. I'm honestly a little excited to watch this and see how it turns out.
Netflix and Mattel Television’s animated Masters of the Universe: Revelation won’t air until likely 2021, but when it does, it will feature an impressive list of voice talent including Mark Hamill (as Skeletor!), Sarah Michelle Gellar, Kevin Conroy, Lena Headey, Alicia Silverstone, Justin Long, and even…Jason Mewes?
Yes, Jason Mewes is along for the ride, as is befitting a show where movie writer/director Kevin Smith (the Silent Bob to Mewes’ Jay in Jay and Silent Bob) serves as showrunner and executive producer. And even though it’s based on kids’ toys from the 1980s, this new series is…pretty damn serious.
“Teddy Biaselli, our exec at Netflix, is an amazing man, and grew up on the franchise,” Smith told Newsarama. “Teddy's big note and only note was, ‘When I was a kid, I did not realize this was campy. This was so serious to me, please just treat it serious. Treat it like Shakespeare.’”
ADVERTISING
That’s what the series’ writers, who include Eric Carrasco (Supergirl), Diya Mishra (Magic the Gathering), Marc Bernardin (Alphas), and Tim Sheridan (Reign of the Supermen) have done.
“We went in with this mantra of, like, nobody is winking and nobody's acting like this is weirdness,” Smith said. “ManAtArms, Stinkor, or no, it's all played incredibly Game of Thrones-straight.”
And if you let your mind’s eye flash back to old He-Man cartoons you may have seen, you’ll notice something was missing there, which will now be in effect.
“We got fights, because now we can,” Smith said. “They couldn't even really clash swords back then. Adam [He-Man] could raise his sword, but he could never use it.”
Smith also called the new show “a sequel series to the classic era that everybody knows, almost as if this was the next episode in the [original] Filmation series.”
Smith is also pleased with the look of the series.
“If you like the style of Castlevania, just put HeMan through that filter, and it has that feel and look to it,” he said. “It's anime style.”
In fact, the animation will be provided by Powerhouse Animation, who also did Castlevania.
Voice work for the first six episodes is almost done, and as pleased as he is with the animation, Smith said the actors have “really turned this into something even more special. The talent has absolutely elevated it beyond what we had on the page.”
The cast includes:
·Mark Hamill (Star Wars, Batman: The Animated Series) as Skeletor
·Lena Headey (Game of Thrones, 300) as Evil-Lyn
·Chris Wood (Supergirl, The Vampire Diaries) as Prince Adam / He-Man
·Sarah Michelle Gellar (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Cruel Intentions) as Teela
·Liam Cunningham (Game of Thrones, Clash of the Titans) as Man-At-Arms
·Stephen Root (Office Space, Barry) as Cringer
·Diedrich Bader (Office Space, Napoleon Dynamite) as King Randor / Trap Jaw
·Griffin Newman (The Tick, Vinyl) as Orko
·Tiffany Smith (Behind Enemy Lines, Supernatural) as Andra
·Henry Rollins (Johnny Mnemonic, Lost Highway) as Tri-Klops
·Alan Oppenheimer (original Skeletor) (Westworld, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe) as Moss Man
·Susan Eisenberg (Wonder Woman, Justice League) as Sorceress
·Alicia Silverstone (Clueless, Batman & Robin) as Queen Marlena
·Justin Long (Galaxy Quest, Live Free or Die Hard) as Roboto
·Jason Mewes (Clerks, Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back) as Stinkor
·Phil LaMarr (Mad TV, Justice League) as He-Ro
·Tony Todd (Candyman, Star Trek: The Next Generation) as Scare Glow
·Cree Summer (DC Super Hero Girls, Vampirina) as Priestess
·Kevin Michael Richardson (The Batman, ThunderCats) as Beast Man
·Kevin Conroy (Batman: The Animated Series, Crisis on Infinite Earths) as Mer-Man
·Harley Quinn Smith (Once Upon a Time…in Hollywood, Jay and Silent Bob Reboot) as Ileena
Smith called the process so far “insanely gratifying,” and hearkened back to his one and only Netflix note.
“We’ve approached He-Man like a kid show, but kids who watched it never saw this as a kid show,” he said. “That’s the key.”
AegisGrimm wrote: I literally just introduced the Dolph Lundgren movie to my 4.5 year old son, and he was frigging entranced.
I straight up loved that movie as a kid. I watched it again a few years ago and man, I gotta say, it is nowhere near as bad as some people think it is. I mean Frank Langella as Skeletor is easily on par with Raul Julias Bison when it comes to chewing the scenery.
I have it on DVD and watched it with the commentary from the director. The whole movie can be summed up by a line he said as the movie started rolling.
"They asked me if I could make a He-Man movie for 12 million dollars. I said yes."
That's all you gotta know about it and it has a lot more heart than you would think.
Easy E wrote: Wow, how did He-man swing a cast like that?
With a project like this? Apart from money, there are the usual reasons: They watched the cartoon when they were kids and wanted to be a part of the new one, and/or they have kids/grandkids of their own that will watch the new show and they're doing it for them. That second one is one of the reasons Redford appeared in the MCU, and I think Glenn Close said the same, too.
But yeah. Let’s never mention that movie ever, ever again, yeah?
While it’s no Dolph Lundgren’s Masters of the Universe, Super Mario Brothers has an awful lot of bad-movie charm. I find it more rewatch able than Street Fighter.
PS: Autocorrect tried to correct “Dolph” to “Adolph”, which is exactly the kind of evil thing Hitler would have done.
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. He Man (along with an obscure Aussie kangaroo live action show called Skippy) is literally my first childhood fandom/pop culture memory and it holds a special place for me.
I kinda think He-Man was kinda progressive for it's time, sorta. I saw a clip last year about astronauts from earth, also turns out He-Man's mother was from earth.
My own problem with "woke' is my dislike of change for the sake of change.
But then I also dislike lazy writing including the phrase "you got this" Which is super lame.
Conroy and Hamill over-ride all the 'Kevins Usual suspects' concerns and no Depp woot woot
Do they, though? Because reading that list, the 'voice talent' starts AND stops with those two. His stoner buddy and his daughter certainly aren't adding a lot to the list.
Some of the others are decent live actors (or muscians... Henry Rollins, really?), but as voice talent... underwhelmed.
I mean, seriously, waiting around for the main villain's exposition or freaking... Mer-Man to have screen time doesn't exactly seem exciting.
I kinda think He-Man was kinda progressive for it's time, sorta. I saw a clip last year about astronauts from earth, also turns out He-Man's mother was from earth.
My own problem with "woke' is my dislike of change for the sake of change.
But then I also dislike lazy writing including the phrase "you got this" Which is super lame.
Having recently rewatched a lot of the Original He-Man, the moral of the day tended towards 'don't be mean to people because they are girls/ different' or 'Be Honest, Always try your best', 'Girls can also do things'. The 'don't resort to violence' was also prevalent- as despite being a buff guy with a sword, He-Man was peaceful by default and tried to talk out problems and differences whenever possible.
These are simplistic things that you tell kids to try encourage peaceful co-operation, (and satisfy mom so she will buy her kids toy barbarians and skeletons) they were never intended as a philosophy for life in an unfair world. But it was still studded with gems of idealistic wisdom and good practice, portraying Adam's Earth mother as a competent pilot and wise counsel.
Teela was a fun character who was in effect a 'career woman assigned to be Bruce Wayne's bodyguard'. She was always portrayed as good at her job which she took seriously, but occasionally as a scold and impediment to He_Mannery. Subplots of Lois Lane/Superman/Clark love triangle and her super secret parentage never really got the focus or arc they deserved in the episodic villain of the week format.
Often stories recognised that, like Superman, there was very little that He-Man could not do physically. The best challenges were then something that He-Man couldn't just grapple his way out of, and the laziest were the dual identity or separation from the sword of power.
That's more or less how I remember it. I never watched every episode and never saw any of the modern He-Man stuff.
I hope the stories let all the characters get involved and have their own time to shine and stories that show character growth.
The morals were simplistic but it's a small reinforcement of the golden rule and the like with out coming on too strong.
Could be that the writers weren't sure how to approach dual identities or the loss of the sword of power. Both could be very good stories if written well. Forcing characters out of their elements and making them work for a solution with only those around them to help them along the way. Possibly some one didn't like it because it's the He-Man show not the Prince Adam show, or something like that.
In the episode I linked I really enjoyed the lines " My Mom tough me Judo and my dad tough me to cook."
It's probs not gonna be at all revolve or be anywhere close to the She-Ra cartoon that exists considering the creators views on He-Man, that and the owners of the property having not given out anything from He-Man for them to work on at all with.
AduroT wrote: I don’t remember Skeletor having that kind of bestial feet, not that I paid much attention to them before.
The original squishy head toy back in the day had the "foot with claws" leg mould, as opposed to the one with boots. It was a light blue plastic with the whole boot area, including the toes being painted a darker blue/purple.
My memory might be a bit hazy, we're talking about a toy from 35 years ago that wasn't from my primary toy franchise of interest.
I always hoped to see a remake of "Masters of the Universe" in which:
1) Teela actually is the daughter of Sorceres and Man-at-arms: this would create a strongest bond among the three character;
2) Teela doesn't became the new Grayskull keeper: she and Sorceress have two totally different roles in the story and both of them are equally useful;
3) She-ra lives in the same planet of He-man: this would allow some interesting crossover among the two series;
4) She-ra isn't the He-man's sisters, but his cousin: I always found out the story they are siblings a little be forced.
The fourth point isn't really important, but do you think my first three desires will be grant?
I always love that song, it makes whatever it’s accompanying just more epic by default. Skeletons laugh bothered me a bit though, it was too Joker I think.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: I always hoped to see a remake of "Masters of the Universe" in which:
1) Teela actually is the daughter of Sorceres and Man-at-arms: this would create a strongest bond among the three character;
2) Teela doesn't became the new Grayskull keeper: she and Sorceress have two totally different roles in the story and both of them are equally useful;
3) She-ra lives in the same planet of He-man: this would allow some interesting crossover among the two series;
4) She-ra isn't the He-man's sisters, but his cousin: I always found out the story they are siblings a little be forced.
The fourth point isn't really important, but do you think my first three desires will be grant?
Well, I can only address #3 and 4 (and mostly in terms of the She-ra reboot)
#3 explicitly can't happen. That they're in another dimension is actually a big deal for the entire narrative that doesn't get resolved until the end of season 4. And season 5 is a pretty wild ride until the end- no one has time for Eternia until their plot arc is over.
#4 doesn't actually matter in terms of new She-ra. Its partly because of licensing issues, but also because the showrunners wanted her to have agency of her own this time (seriously, the original pilot/movie was awful for Adora as a character, she only makes moral decisions because He-man shows up and tells her to). But the fact that she's from somewhere else and maybe has family is a ship that sailed. It comes up once during the show, but beyond a brief identity crisis, it doesn't matter. Her 'found family' and childhood relationships are paramount, and while dealing with the family she was stolen from as a baby might be interesting, it'd be kinda fanfiction-y. And have to happen post show, at which point she and her friends are just a giant weight on the good side of the scales, which would undermine the He-man story significantly.
Just watching it again, I realised that I completely missed Orko on the first watch. He looks quite sinister there. If they manage to make Orko something other than 'would be comic relief except that he's not actually funny', that would be nice... He was the one part of the original cartoon that I hated, as a kid.
AduroT wrote: I always love that song, it makes whatever it’s accompanying just more epic by default. Skeletons laugh bothered me a bit though, it was too Joker I think.
yea, i got some joker vibes from it as well for a moment or two there
insaniak wrote: Just watching it again, I realised that I completely missed Orko on the first watch. He looks quite sinister there. If they manage to make Orko something other than 'would be comic relief except that he's not actually funny', that would be nice... He was the one part of the original cartoon that I hated, as a kid.
But who else is going to learn the True Meaning of Christmas?
Those heartwarming plane crash orphans won't share the story of Jesus with a demonic looking Orko!
I don’t think there’s Any way this will have any sort of crossover or connection with the recent She Ra series. They are just way too different in style and approach.
AduroT wrote: I don’t think there’s Any way this will have any sort of crossover or connection with the recent She Ra series. They are just way too different in style and approach.
from the interview/discussions i've seen, there isn't, smith answers that pretty directly
AduroT wrote: I don’t think there’s Any way this will have any sort of crossover or connection with the recent She Ra series. They are just way too different in style and approach.
Not what I expected from the trailer at all, honestly.
I thought it would be more like this:
warboss wrote: According to slides of the presentation from Powercon that are now floating around the interwebs and youtube, the missing "He Man" from the poster title isn't an accident. Apparently it'll instead focus on Teela and He Man will barely feature in it. Apply salt as needed to taste.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AduroT wrote: Skeletons laugh bothered me a bit though, it was too Joker I think.
A minor complaint and hardly a dealbreaker but... I totally agree.
warboss wrote: I dread to hear what sort of woke changes they'll inevitably make to the original. He Man (along with an obscure Aussie kangaroo live action show called Skippy) is literally my first childhood fandom/pop culture memory and it holds a special place for me.
Man, people sure do get upset about childrens entertainment designed to sell toys.
I hope children enjoy this show and it has positive messages for them.
I luckily manage to make it through my life without being in a constant state of agitation over "wokeness", something that people seem to struggle to define when asked to.
Wouldn’t it be terrible if they rounded off each episode with some kind of simply moral lesson. Like not cheating, sharing your toys, loyalty, friendship and that.
Would be completely betraying the hardcore nature of the original.
Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
Did see someone having a go at Kevin Smith about the sjw/woke level of the show - quite like his response, really. Probably more polite than I'd've been.
Buddy Christ appearing in the replies was a nice touch.
Dysartes wrote: Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
Did see someone having a go at Kevin Smith about the sjw/woke level of the show - quite like his response, really. Probably more polite than I'd've been.
Buddy Christ appearing in the replies was a nice touch.
Queer creators (and that isn't meant in derogatory way, its how they label themselves), queer story, non-sexualized female characters, different animation style (no 'animation library' of recycled movements in front of still backgrounds- the backgrounds are one of the few things that are impressive about the original, IMO), women with agency, take your pick. Or just people hated changed things because change, I guess.
As someone who missed the originals (I was overseas when they aired in the US), I don't get the hate. The reboot is probably one of the best TV/Movie/etc things I've seen in the last decade. But I'm a sucker for villains with motivations, and ditching tired, unnecessary nonsense around secret identities and silly toy tropes. It had its weak points, but the crew fought like hell to get the story they wanted done, and even some of the weaker episodes are at least fun or interesting.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: I always hoped to see a remake of "Masters of the Universe" in which:
1) Teela actually is the daughter of Sorceres and Man-at-arms: this would create a strongest bond among the three character;
2) Teela doesn't became the new Grayskull keeper: she and Sorceress have two totally different roles in the story and both of them are equally useful;
3) She-ra lives in the same planet of He-man: this would allow some interesting crossover among the two series; 4) She-ra isn't the He-man's sisters, but his cousin: I always found out the story they are siblings a little be forced.
The fourth point isn't really important, but do you think my first three desires will be grant?
I don't expect it to be the case, even if just going from the artistic direction.
Then again, I really, really liked the new She-Ra cartoon, so another new He-Man show/reboot meant to tie off with that one? I'd be all for it.
I haven't had chance to watch it myself yet, but given that the themes being explored in the new show is pertinent to recent conversations, I figured I'd share it now and catch up later.
I think that’s the best definition of nostalgia I’ve seen; the comfort of things that made you happy as a child.
A small thing, but I really like that they appear to have given Prince Adam more human proportions. My memory says he was always pretty buff even in his secret identity, almost to the point of “how does everyone not know it’s him”.
Jadenim wrote: My memory says he was always pretty buff even in his secret identity, almost to the point of “how does everyone not know it’s him”.
Adam was just He-Man with slightly different coloured (yellower) hair and a pink shirt. So, yes, there was even less excuse than when an award-winning investigative reporter failed to notice how much Clark looked like Superman... He at least changed his hairstyle and popped on a pair of glasses.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just did some googling to refresh my memory... turns out the toy was just a straight repaint of the He-Man figure with a velvet shirt (which appears to have been more of a deep red, rather than the pink from the cartoon. It was the '80s... can't have boys with pink toys!)
They didn't even bother switching to unarmoured arms, so he still has He-Man's bracers, just coloured white to blend in with his undershirt.
I was going to say 'That's crazy, of course they did!' because I'm sure I remember mine having grey painted bracers.
From looking online, though, it would appear you are correct, they're just painted with his arms. Some of the variant figures have them painted (some of the Battle Armour version do, some don't, for example, may have been a regional or batch thing) but the original figure didn't.
Although remembering the colours some of my Star Wars figures ended up (had to do something with all of those excess R2-D2s...), I may well have painted them myself and forgotten about it.
since we've deviated on to the actual original toy line.... was anything ever made of the fact that the Skeletor figure came with an 'evil half' of the Sword of Power - and the two halves could be combined to make one sword?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: And the two halves put together served as a key to the Jawbridge of Castle Greyskull.
Right, the whole thing was designed as toys first. He-Man would battle Skeletor and whoever won would take the other's half of the sword of power, use it to unlock Greyskull, and flip the flag to their side to control it. Battle would then resume to try and flip it back.
Dysartes wrote: Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
Did see someone having a go at Kevin Smith about the sjw/woke level of the show - quite like his response, really. Probably more polite than I'd've been.
Buddy Christ appearing in the replies was a nice touch.
Queer creators (and that isn't meant in derogatory way, its how they label themselves), queer story, non-sexualized female characters, different animation style (no 'animation library' of recycled movements in front of still backgrounds- the backgrounds are one of the few things that are impressive about the original, IMO), women with agency, take your pick. Or just people hated changed things because change, I guess.
As someone who missed the originals (I was overseas when they aired in the US), I don't get the hate. The reboot is probably one of the best TV/Movie/etc things I've seen in the last decade. But I'm a sucker for villains with motivations, and ditching tired, unnecessary nonsense around secret identities and silly toy tropes. It had its weak points, but the crew fought like hell to get the story they wanted done, and even some of the weaker episodes are at least fun or interesting.
Anyone complaining about the reboot shouldn't be able to stomach a single episode of the original. Honestly, the worst thing about the reboot as far as I was concerned was trying to keep the incredibly cheesy character names from the original toy line that just clash terribly with the well thought out characters that are forced to bear them.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: I always hoped to see a remake of "Masters of the Universe" in which:
1) Teela actually is the daughter of Sorceres and Man-at-arms: this would create a strongest bond among the three character;
2) Teela doesn't became the new Grayskull keeper: she and Sorceress have two totally different roles in the story and both of them are equally useful;
3) She-ra lives in the same planet of He-man: this would allow some interesting crossover among the two series; 4) She-ra isn't the He-man's sisters, but his cousin: I always found out the story they are siblings a little be forced.
The fourth point isn't really important, but do you think my first three desires will be grant?
I don't expect it to be the case, even if just going from the artistic direction.
Then again, I really, really liked the new She-Ra cartoon, so another new He-Man show/reboot meant to tie off with that one? I'd be all for it.
The problem is the IP rights, She-Ra and He-Man are (somehow) different IPs and getting both to be in the same cartoon is a legal headache.
Matt Swain wrote:So anyone want to start a betting pool on which characters will be turned into the mandatory LGBTQ characters?
Honestly, the worst thing about the reboot as far as I was concerned was trying to keep the incredibly cheesy character names from the original toy line that just clash terribly with the well thought out characters that are forced to bear them.
Sure, but consider that canonically, catra's full name is now Catra Applesauce Meowmeow so that's amazing.
Dysartes wrote: Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
I don't like the art style. For me, that's the beginning, middle, and end of it. Same reason I couldn't watch the Netflix Godzilla series, and I love Godzilla.
Dysartes wrote: Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
I don't like the art style. For me, that's the beginning, middle, and end of it. Same reason I couldn't watch the Netflix Godzilla series, and I love Godzilla.
Do you mean the Godzilla series where Godzilla rendered the earth uninhabitable? It was miserable. You missed nothing.
Anyone complaining about the reboot shouldn't be able to stomach a single episode of the original. Honestly, the worst thing about the reboot as far as I was concerned was trying to keep the incredibly cheesy character names from the original toy line that just clash terribly with the well thought out characters that are forced to bear them.
That's pretty reasonable. Except it wasn't really a matter of 'keeping' the names as being forced to- one of the few areas they couldn't get around the Dreamworks execs. Though, with some of the dumber ones they just jettisoned the characters altogether. One of the exceptions, 'Castaspella,' just became 'Glimmer's Aunt Casta' real quick.
Dysartes wrote: Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
I don't like the art style. For me, that's the beginning, middle, and end of it. Same reason I couldn't watch the Netflix Godzilla series, and I love Godzilla.
Do you mean the Godzilla series where Godzilla rendered the earth uninhabitable? It was miserable. You missed nothing.
Yeah - I heard that as well, but glad to have it reinforced.
I think there are probably a lot of IPs my art snobbery is causing me to miss out on, though - it extends to comic books as well. Persepolis comes to mind.
Masters of the Universe looks fine to me, though. I will definitely check it out.
Dysartes wrote: Question from someone who hasn't seen it - why the apparent dislike for the recent She-Ra series?
I don't like the art style. For me, that's the beginning, middle, and end of it. Same reason I couldn't watch the Netflix Godzilla series, and I love Godzilla.
Do you mean the Godzilla series where Godzilla rendered the earth uninhabitable? It was miserable. You missed nothing.
Yeah - I heard that as well, but glad to have it reinforced.
I think there are probably a lot of IPs my art snobbery is causing me to miss out on, though - it extends to comic books as well. Persepolis comes to mind.
Masters of the Universe looks fine to me, though. I will definitely check it out.
Thru sheer willpower, determination and a refusal to be beaten down i managed to watch the entire anima godzilla trilogy.
On the bright side if i do end up in hell, it won't seem as bad now.
You were wise to avoid it, especially the ghawdawful third series of images shown in sequence with a soundtrack (It does not deserve to be called a movie)
While much of this list was known, I'm not sure I've seen such a detailed breakdown of who was playing who, so figured I'd share.
Mark Hamill as Skeletor,
Lena Headey as Evil-Lyn,
Chris Wood as Prince Adam/He-Man,
Sarah Michelle Gellar as Teela,
Liam Cunningham as Man-At-Arms,
Stephen Root as Cringer,
Diedrich Bader as King Randor/Trap Jaw,
Griffin Newman as Orko,
Tiffany Smith as Andra,
Henry Rollins as Tri-Klops,
Alan Oppenheimer (original Skeletor) as Moss Man,
Susan Eisenberg as Sorceress,
Alicia Silverstone as Queen Marlena,
Justin Long as Roboto,
Jason Mewes as Stinkor,
Phil LaMarr as He-Ro,
Tony Todd as Scare Glow,
Cree Summer as Priestess,
Kevin Michael Richardson as Beast Man and
Kevin Conroy as Mer-Man.
Azreal13 wrote: While much of this list was known, I'm not sure I've seen such a detailed breakdown of who was playing who, so figured I'd share.
Mark Hamill as Skeletor,
Lena Headey as Evil-Lyn,
Chris Wood as Prince Adam/He-Man,
Sarah Michelle Gellar as Teela,
Liam Cunningham as Man-At-Arms,
Stephen Root as Cringer,
Diedrich Bader as King Randor/Trap Jaw,
Griffin Newman as Orko,
Tiffany Smith as Andra,
Henry Rollins as Tri-Klops,
Alan Oppenheimer (original Skeletor) as Moss Man,
Susan Eisenberg as Sorceress,
Alicia Silverstone as Queen Marlena,
Justin Long as Roboto,
Jason Mewes as Stinkor,
Phil LaMarr as He-Ro,
Tony Todd as Scare Glow,
Cree Summer as Priestess,
Kevin Michael Richardson as Beast Man and
Kevin Conroy as Mer-Man.
For my own curiosity, those names I didn't know I went back and looked up.
Chris Wood is Mon-El in the Arrowverse.
Stephen Root, done a lot of voice work, but is also Milton from Office Space.
Griffin Newman, Arthur in The Tick
Tiffany Smith, barely anything. She played Meghan Markle in a TV dramatisation of Harry and Meghan's relationship.
Henry Rollins - nothing big, but a lot of voiceover work in his credits. Was AJ in Sons Of Anarchy but don't know the show.
Susan Eisneberg. Mainly voice. Has done Wonder Woman a lot.
Justin Long, worked with Smith on Tusk, Die Hard 4.
Phil Lamarr. Hermes from Futurama.
Tony Todd. Candyman.
Cree Summer. Penny from Inspector Gadget. Probably now an adult. (It was 1983.)
Kevin Michael Richardson. Knew the name, wasn't sure of what he'd done. Answer? Basically everything. Most recently the twins in Invincible.
Henry Rollins-saw him do a live show once, which ended up being super interesting. Last movie i saw him in was kinda meh, but voicework should be ok
Phil Lamarr-i remember more for being Samurai Jack then for being hermes
Like I said, it was just me sharing info I'd looked up for my own purposes. I've never watched Samurai Jack so it wasn't ever going to be my frame of reference, but I definitely knew Hermes.
The article talks about more of interest too. I felt the cast with characters was the most relevant, but there's parts where Smith talks about how the creative guys in charge at Mattel and Netflix are fans, and how part of the brief was to honour and not to mock the legacy and a bunch of other positive sounding things.
I still don’t know if I care for Mark Hamill as Skeletor. Like, I like Mark and his work, I just can’t not hear Joker with the few bits we’ve been given. It’s too distinctive of a character voice. Like sure, I’ve watched shows where I recognize voices from the actors other roles, but they’re generally more “normal” voices, while Joker is just rather unique. Or was.
I liked it, quite a bit. I mean, it's no Avatar, but for essentially a western shonen (aimed at boys) cartoon, it's pretty good. If it continues like this I'd say it might beat Korra.
Non-spoiler thoughts:
1) They definitely didn't look at the setting and think "what stories can we tell here", they had a particular story they wanted to tell and they hammered the setting until it fit that story. There's some pretty bad exposition near the start where characters explain newly invented history and cosmology to each other to set up the plot and it's pretty hamfisted and the first episode is a godawful rush to transition between MOTU and... whatever this is. Once this plot gets going, it's absolutely riveting, with great pacing and hard not to binge in one go.
2) This isn't a man hating show, no matter what the reactionary troglodytes try to tell you. It's not Harley Quinn. Women are the focus, yes. But all the dudes are treated with respect, are competent and do cool things. One episode is literally all about how Man at Arms is the baddest mofo on the planet. "Progressive themes" are limited to about the same scope as GW's: the odd sidecut here and there and a new (I think) spunky black girl character.
3) This isn't for little kids. While IIRC the strongest word said is bollocks, there's plenty of gore and death. Oh, and character development. Lots of that.
If you can make it through the first two episodes, you'll love the rest. But maybe you want to hold off until the next 5 are out... because the cliffhanger at the end of ep 5 is absolutely sadistic.
Watched the first three episodes tonight and plan on watching the next two tomorrow. Enjoying it so far. It has done the characters well and it is fun seeing how they introduce and have updated each one. Not really going into it to much as not wanting to spoil anything this early on. Not that this is some 'twist' type of story just don't want to keep others from a chance to see it unfold organically.
It's not a good kids show, given the themes and tone.
It's not a good adult show, given the quality of writing and execution of some fairly mundane character beats.
It doesn't look good, given that Netflix pays sweat shop rates for sweat shop quality animation.
I'm not even sure if it qualifies as good nostalgia grift, given people in this very thread describe it as "it's own thing", which I'm sure all the 35+ year old fans that were supposed to give it traction will be ecstatic about.
If, like me, you're not invested in the He-Man universe, skip this one. You aren't losing anything.
IS this actually a continuation of the original? It’s been so long I don’t remember how that ended, but didn’t the one snake guy take over Snake Mountain from Skeletor? I recall Snake Mountain changing its appearance when they happened to the snake having multiple heads. I don’t know if it changed back during the original series, but Snake Mountain in this new one lacked that and we havent seen any of the snake dudes.
AduroT wrote: IS this actually a continuation of the original? It’s been so long I don’t remember how that ended, but didn’t the one snake guy take over Snake Mountain from Skeletor? I recall Snake Mountain changing its appearance when they happened to the snake having multiple heads. I don’t know if it changed back during the original series, but Snake Mountain in this new one lacked that and we havent seen any of the snake dudes.
Well, spiritual continuation at least. Never followed the original series that much, but the first ep certainly had a similar vibe to the originals.
The original didn't have an overarching storyline, it was just a story to ostensibly convey some sort of moral, but in reality was to showcase one of the latest wave of toys each week.
There may have been an occasional 2 parter, and loosely Skeletor was always trying to get into Castle Greyskull, but nothing even approaching a coherent ongoing narrative.
I didn't mind it. Not amazing. No where near as good or coherent as the She-Ra reboot.
I think the thing here is that He-Man and tMotU has always been more a bunch of cool designs and barely anything else. There is a neat kernal of something there at it's core that could be built into something good when you cut around all the dumb bull gak or play it straight in a way that works with the rest of whatever you are doing with it.
But this barely does that so far. Teela is honestly the best part of this. Someone who immediately gaks on the dumb ass premise of the original series and goes off to be a real person in the world.
The new designs for many characters are pretty great. Love the techno cult. Love Beast man and Mer Man updated and covered in scars. Like Orko getting some characterization.
Not sure why everyone is so butt-hurt, was a perfectly fine series. Nice to be able to take it seriously as opposed to the overly cheesy tone of the 80’s.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Nice to be able to take it seriously as opposed to the overly cheesy tone of the 80’s.
Wait... what? One of the things that I liked about this was precisely the fact that they leaned into the cheesiness, rather than trying take the source material seriously. There's certainly a serious undercurrent to it with the overall story, but as welcome as the character development is, it's still all cheesy and tropey.
Yeah. They even go so far as to hang a lantern on it several times.
After the first flash back the new character goes "Wait, he really said that?" And when she puns latter about Mer Man everyone just stares her down "...What? You were all thinking it."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Not sure why everyone is so butt-hurt, was a perfectly fine series. Nice to be able to take it seriously as opposed to the overly cheesy tone of the 80’s.
It's just not great is all. The She-Ra series was legit great. It played into the mythology, reinvented the characters in ways that made them really good characters to follow. It had the tech and the magic and the magic that was really just tech. It got to the heart of the story while ditching the bad and expanding on the good. A He-Man reboot set in THAT universe built off THAT foundation would have been amazing.
This is just... okay. It's not great. It's not bad either. It's almost worse to be this middling thing. Maybe the next 5 episodes will help it stand out more or get to something better. But right now it's just... fine. It's fine.
I really liked it. I'm old enough to remember the toys and cartoons from the first go round. MOTU was responsible for one of my best childhood Christmas memories.
I don't recognise the bs that's being circulated online right now as having any basis in fact at all, it's the same bunch of incels that get up in arms about everything.
Moving the focus from He Man was a brave move, but he was a narrative black hole the warped everything around him, giving the other characters room to breath is great, Orko especially gets to not be the irritation that even my 7 year old self found grating.
Moving the focus from He Man was a brave move, but he was a narrative black hole the warped everything around him, giving the other characters room to breath is great, Orko especially gets to not be the irritation that even my 7 year old self found grating.
Agreed. The fact that I actually gave a damn about Orko in this was a nice surprise.
And yes, it was cool to see Teela get to do something other than stand in the background while He-Man does all the work. Assuming this cartoon carries on (never a given with Netflix) I'd love to see that continue, with other characters getting to actually do some of the heavy lifting and He-Man only showing up when things get really dire instead of Adam waving his sword in the air the moment someone somewhere stubs their toe.
Argive wrote: Its like making a show about superman and then complaining everything revolves around superman...
Its odd that you dont want character to sit in the background but then want He man the main guy to just be in the background..
Im watching the 2002 version now and the fact I found it for free and I dotn have to give netflx a penny is just icing on the cake
Yup, a Superman show in which Superman immediately jumps in and fixes every single problem while everyone else stands around and watches would be just as disappointing as a He-Man show where He-Man does that. I don't watch shows for a single character, because that gets boring really quickly. You can get away with that in a movie, but the most entertaining shows, for me, are those where there are a group of characters working together and where, even when the main focus is on one character, the others all get a chance to shine.
Although given that this show is called 'Masters of the Universe' rather than 'He-Man', a more apt analogy would be a Justice League show where Superman does all the actual work. And that would be awful.
Its like making a show about superman and then complaining everything revolves around superman...
Its odd that you dont want character to sit in the background but then want He man the main guy to just be in the background..
Im watching the 2002 version now and the fact I found it for free and I dotn have to give netflx a penny is just icing on the cake
No, it would be like watching Justice League except nobody else has anything to do because Superman can just do everything. You know... like the end of the Justice League movie where Superman can effortlessly pull apart the mother boxes, defeat Steppenwolf as though he was a regular human with 0 ability to cause Superman even the slightest harm, and save all the citizens by flying entire buildings out of danger faster than the Flash can move a single truck with 3 people in it.
He-Man has never been a show/franchise that focused entirely on He-Man. It was always a show with a team. A large cast of a team at that. That supporting cast needs to have something to do besides be people Adam has a conversation with between resolving every single conflict effortlessly.
But its He-man... When you were a kid did you say "oooh masters of the universe is on"
Or did you say
"oooh He-man is on"
Where I grew up the show was called "He-man". They didint bother translating it to to anything else...
Theres a difference between HE man not doing everything himself. And being side lined to be an afterthought and only being relevant to die?
Dunno about anyone else but it really felt off and wierd... Not at all what I was expecting in a bad way. Its not like watch gak like he man for a deep story line tbh haha just wanted to watch he man wreck face and veg out...
Argive wrote: But its He-man... When you were a kid did you say "oooh masters of the universe is one"
Or did you say
"oooh He-man is on"
Where I grew up the show was called "He-man". They didint bother translating it to to anything else...
Theres a difference between HE man not doing everything himself. And being side lined to be an afterthought and only being relevant to die?
Dunno about anyone else but it really felt off and wierd... Not at all what I was expecting in a bad way. Its not like watch gak like he man for a deep story line tbh haha just wanted to watch he man wreck face and veg out...
Anyway. Glory to mecha-neck!!!!
Which, I would argue, is a good reason to have rebooted it She-Ra style instead of continuing with the bad original one. You can see He-Man wreck face when face wrecking is needed while not being an invulnerable unstoppable perfect whatever and give the supporting cast plenty to do.
Basing it as a continuation of the original is exactly why it's better to shift focus away from him.
Argive wrote: But its He-man... When you were a kid did you say "oooh masters of the universe is one"
Or did you say
"oooh He-man is on"
Sure, as a kid I referred to the show entitled 'He-Man and the Masters of the Universe' as 'He-Man'. This isn't that show. It's a show exploring what happened after that show, and as such it doesn't have to be solely about He-Man, any more than Star Trek: The Next Generation needed to be about Captain Kirk.
Theres a difference between HE man not doing everything himself. And being side lined to be an afterthought and only being relevant to die?
One of the things that makes heroes interesting is the potential for them to occasionally fail. And, yes, to die. Framing a story around what happens when he's gone is much more interesting that it would have been to just carry on with the 'Skeletor hatches evil plan, He-Man shows up and wrestles some people, Cue Moral of the Week!' format of the original.
Given the way the series has gone so far, I'm half expecting it to finish with the Sword being passed on to Teela. And I'm totally fine with that idea, and 10-year-old me (who also quite enjoyed watching the original She-Ra and Jem alongside MotU, Transformers and Robotech) would have been equally fine with it.
Tyran wrote: IMHO, this is an issue of marketing. Had Kevin Smith and Mattel marketed this as MOTU:Teela or something like that, this wouldn't be an issue.
But instead, the first trailer was very bait and switch, created expectations that the show couldn't meet, and here we are.
I think that's definitely a big part of it, and they also denied it very strongly and they should have basically been upfront about what they wanted the show to be about.
I personally really didn't like it since it went downhill after the first episode, and this basically sums up how I feel about the show:
Argive wrote: But its He-man... When you were a kid did you say "oooh masters of the universe is on"
Or did you say
"oooh He-man is on"
Where I grew up the show was called "He-man". They didint bother translating it to to anything else...
It was always, at the least, He Man and the Masters Of the Universe.
Unless you grew up elsewhere than the UK of course.
The fact that people did refer to it as "He Man" merely reinforces my point about him being a narrative black hole.
I think you are looking far too deeply at the "narrative" of an actions children tv show my dude.. Theres little narrative other then fight skeletor -> get tricked by skeletor -> win/lose -> fight skeletor again / keep doing the right thing.
Thast is virtualy as deep as it goes and should ever go.. This aint no love and peace
I'm not sure if he was watching a different show, or was just a bit too far into the bottle to understand what he was watching, to be honest. I got as far as his breathless assertion that the male characters were all made useless before I gave up. I mean, right off the top of my head Man at Arms literally saved everyone at least three times out of the five episodes so far.
Yes it was a bait and switch, but I'm more worried about people who consider this 'good writing.' I think 'geek culture' clearly isn't for me if this is what is considered good.
dream archipelago wrote: Yes it was a bait and switch, but I'm more worried about people who consider this 'good writing.' I think 'geek culture' clearly isn't for me if this is what is considered good.
There is a bit of 'Last Jedi-ing' going on but the animation is decent, there were a few interesting surprises and it was nice to see a focus on other characters besides the main man. I'm going to give it a solid 6/10 for what I've seen so far, and will watch the rest to see where it goes.
Tyran wrote: IMHO, this is an issue of marketing. Had Kevin Smith and Mattel marketed this as MOTU:Teela or something like that, this wouldn't be an issue.
But instead, the first trailer was very bait and switch, created expectations that the show couldn't meet, and here we are.
I think you all need to go back to the beginning of this very thread and the news from the 2019 convention were it was suggested that he man wouldn't be the focus, and it was called Masters of the Universe and not he man for a reason. There was a two year warning on this 'bait and switch'
Also given scifi fantasy storytelling tropes and the multiple decades that have passed, they needed characters that aren't read into the story so they can be POV characters for the audience. Cue the secondary character that was constantly kept in the dark (pointlessly so, in the original) and a new character. It's how (and why) you get Luke Skywalkers, various Starks, new sidekicks for superheroes and so on, Not the most original tack, but at least it's a better trope than amnesia.
So.... I didn't really like it, but I won't say its bad either. I think more than anything, what bothers me is the way Netflix puts out content and the cliffhanger isn't nearly as exciting as it would be if we know there would be another episode next week. I've just seen too many end of season cliffhangers that can't live up to their promises and it doesn't really help that this one isn't too far removed from how the first episode ends making it feel a little plodding.
Obviously, that's because most of the series is about inventing character dynamics out of whole cloth from a franchise that didn't really have a plot to work from in the first place. It mostly succeeds, but for a lot of it I felt the artificial angst that plagues the whole gritty reboot genre. A lot of it came across to me as mean spirited without adding any lasting substance.
They for the most part, do a great job with Teela, but she's also the part of the series I find most frustrating. Where so much of this is inventing character dynamics, her arc depends on a friendship with Adam that depends almost entirely on the original series. The core of the story is a sense of betrayal that demands a specific read of the original that I don't think many every had and even fewer remember and the show needed to spend some time on before making it the heart of the story.
What the show does do really well is capture, less the spirit of the original show (even when it's trying to) as the spirit of the original toys. Most of the callbacks come from the toyline more than anything and the show seems loaded with the kind of adventures the toys inspired. I think the cliffhanger opens doors to take the series to some awesome places, but in some ways could have just started from there.
grahamdbailey wrote: There is a bit of 'Last Jedi-ing' going on but the animation is decent, there were a few interesting surprises and it was nice to see a focus on other characters besides the main man.
Focus, but not really development. Could have done with a different structure of the first episode mostly as-was to set the scene followed by a couple of prequel episodes covering the events leading up to establish what the characters motivations and connections are, and then flash forwards again to resolve the crisis at hand now that we know what stakes everyone has in this.
And it would be nice if reboots stopped turning hopeful characters into angry disillusioned hobos. It's depressing.
The reboots that turn hopeful characters into angry disillusioned hobos are those aimed at adults, because apparently that is mature or something. The reboots that remember that they are above all else shows aimed at children keep the positive protagonists.
The trouble with this particular franchise is that literally everyone was hopeful all of the time.
If they had a tough time of it, you can bet that by the end of the episode they'd be laughing at the sky, hands on hips, with all their friends, having learned an important lesson about teamwork or some gak.
That's ok for a show exclusively targeted at young kids, but given the stated aim to offer something that appeals to original, now adult, fans, you need some light and shade.
That may not necessarily always apply to every property, but for MOTU it's needed.
Azreal13 wrote: The trouble with this particular franchise is that literally everyone was hopeful all of the time.
If they had a tough time of it, you can bet that by the end of the episode they'd be laughing at the sky, hands on hips, with all their friends, having learned an important lesson about teamwork or some gak.
That's ok for a show exclusively targeted at young kids, but given the stated aim to offer something that appeals to original, now adult, fans, you need some light and shade.
That may not necessarily always apply to every property, but for MOTU it's needed.
Even in the 2012 reboot had some shade but some actual light behind it, it wasn't just angry all the time. Even though the stakes were oftentimes quite dark they could still have hope.
well that's a lot of rage for a Vegan stoner, as whilst Kev and I haven't been on the same page for a while he's previously (at least in public) taken negative press fairly well (kind of a must after Tusk and Nepotism Hosers)
yea, only thing i've seen was Smith commenting how he should be feeling bad for all the hate he's getting, but clerks 3 is about to start filming so to much good vibes from that
edit/update-
after posting that, i went and watched the show, and while i didn't find it super amazing, i found it interesting enough to watch the second half when it drops
trailers were misleading as hell though, i'll admit
Now, if i'd been a big motu fan as a kid, i can see feeling differently, but i was more a transformers/Gijoe kid
I was a huge He Man fan as a kid, as well as GIJoe, but somehow neither has stuck with me. I’m more emotionally invested in the live action Masters of the Universe movie with Dolph Lundgren.
Well hopefully now that people know what the show is, those who are complaining about it can go watch something else while the people who like it can wait for part 2. Continuing to attack the show will only make yourself look bad.
My only real complaint is that in a show called "Masters of the Universe" you wouldn't focus the entire attention of the story on just one character. Other than that it's serviceable nostalgia bait and popcorn series. No more, no less.
And yes, that particular complaint is also true of the original series. The original should be the He-Man show, this should be the Teela show.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I was a huge He Man fan as a kid, as well as GIJoe, but somehow neither has stuck with me. I’m more emotionally invested in the live action Masters of the Universe movie with Dolph Lundgren.
not gonna lie, i remember that movie far more then i do the cartoon, one of those random afternoon movies i'd watch when cartoons weren't on
greenskin lynn wrote: yea, only thing i've seen was Smith commenting how he should be feeling bad for all the hate he's getting, but clerks 3 is about to start filming so to much good vibes from that
Wow, talk about digging up cultural fossils with no modern-day relevance...
I know which of these projects has more staying power.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Well hopefully now that people know what the show is, those who are complaining about it can go watch something else while the people who like it can wait for part 2. Continuing to attack the show will only make yourself look bad.
Yes heaven forbid people criticize something they do not like, it will make them look bad! I guess that means a solid percentage of posters on this very site look horrendous with their continuous attacking of GW.
Pretty much, yes, only even more so, as the church of GW is very broad and people can have liked and dislikes within that.
If one hates this single show and continue to watch it, let alone tear into it, then from this point it begins to look less like a preference and more like an agenda.
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Well hopefully now that people know what the show is, those who are complaining about it can go watch something else while the people who like it can wait for part 2. Continuing to attack the show will only make yourself look bad.
Yes heaven forbid people criticize something they do not like, it will make them look bad! I guess that means a solid percentage of posters on this very site look horrendous with their continuous attacking of GW.
I would say its not really that people are critical of it, but how they are going about it
this show has brought out a lot of apparently very vocal "you've ruined my childhood forever, graaahhhh rabble rabble rabble" types and
not as much people that are more....constructive....in their criticism
I think dropping only half the season is looking to be more of a negative then a positive
The trailers were incredibly misleading, and people aren't going to forget that with other projects going forward
People are finding Teela rather unlikable, which is understandable. From my viewpoint, the attitude and changes come across much like what I've
seen working in the mental health field with trauma history patients, but that viewpoint is very much dependent on my work history and exposure
I found the underworld epi to be kinda meh
The return from muscleternia seemed to easy
DeathKorp_Rider wrote: Well hopefully now that people know what the show is, those who are complaining about it can go watch something else while the people who like it can wait for part 2. Continuing to attack the show will only make yourself look bad.
Yes heaven forbid people criticize something they do not like, it will make them look bad! I guess that means a solid percentage of posters on this very site look horrendous with their continuous attacking of GW.
I didn’t say they couldn’t criticize it. I said they can skip complaining about the second part since they already know they won’t like it. If you’re watching something that far and you hate it, you’re probably there just to stir the pot.
greenskin lynn wrote: yea, only thing i've seen was Smith commenting how he should be feeling bad for all the hate he's getting, but clerks 3 is about to start filming so to much good vibes from that
Wow, talk about digging up cultural fossils with no modern-day relevance...
I know which of these projects has more staying power.
It sounds like you are suggesting the toy cartoon with <1 successful reboots has more staying power than the influential cult comedy film series with four modest hits over three decades?
It's more I'm kind of surprised he's bothered reacting at all, he had the intertubes pegged 20 years ago, to wit "sad, pathetic little bumblewits, downloading scripts and what they think is inside information about movies and actors they claim to despise yet can't stop discussing", and he should have known not to feed the trolls, but that seems to be part of the game these days. like I previously posted I gave it a go, didn't care for it, found others stuff to watch, simples
This show was brilliant, the good ol' bait and switch, the bringing low of yet another IP, Kevin Smith lying out of his arse, She man and the last Jedi dark fate was a great addition to the pantheon of wasted potential.
I have not been so entertained by such pure cringe in years and I enjoyed every minute, Smith's career is likely quite damaged by this though which is kinda sad as I do like him, should kept his mouth shut though.
greenskin lynn wrote: yea, only thing i've seen was Smith commenting how he should be feeling bad for all the hate he's getting, but clerks 3 is about to start filming so to much good vibes from that
Wow, talk about digging up cultural fossils with no modern-day relevance...
I know which of these projects has more staying power.
It sounds like you are suggesting the toy cartoon with <1 successful reboots has more staying power than the influential cult comedy film series with four modest hits over three decades?
Well, no. Mostly because I wouldn't describe them as even modest hits and definitely not international.
Cult favs, yes. But I've had the privilege of introducing them to folks in other countries back when I was enthused about them and got universally utterly blank reactions. They're very, very American with little reach or influence outside a very specific audience, and haven't aged well at all.
On other hand, while I personally don't care for MotU, it does have a lot of influence. And it's plain to see most of the negative reactions are coming from the usual suspects for the usual reasons.
Does it? The franchise has been pretty much dead since the original ended, with one reboot 20 years ago. I've never seen nor heard anyone be excited for He-Man in all those years. The only franchise more dead must be Dino Riders.
Turnip Jedi wrote: like I previously posted I gave it a go, didn't care for it, found others stuff to watch, simples
This is essentially my attitude, though I do want to watch the next part and see if they do anything interesting with it. There's a lot of potential for exciting story beats and most of my disappointment is that they cut things short before they could really do anything interesting with the changes they made.
Turnip Jedi wrote: like I previously posted I gave it a go, didn't care for it, found others stuff to watch, simples
This is essentially my attitude, though I do want to watch the next part and see if they do anything interesting with it. There's a lot of potential for exciting story beats and most of my disappointment is that they cut things short before they could really do anything interesting with the changes they made.
Drip feeding it was a very strange choice, I get The Event might have muddled things but even so, I blame D+
Cronch wrote: Does it? The franchise has been pretty much dead since the original ended, with one reboot 20 years ago. I've never seen nor heard anyone be excited for He-Man in all those years. The only franchise more dead must be Dino Riders.
It was a cultural background presence for decades, with lots of references and callbacks, and a call for a reboot, continuation, etc. Even as someone who didn't care, I saw it a lot.
As far as dead cartoon franchises go, there are unapologetically a lot. There's a wasteland of dead properties out there that never made it and are barely remembered.
Even relatively 'popular' ones are a lot more corner case and fan cults than something as mainstream as MOTU.
I caught the first three episodes on Youtube and they were presented in a painful manner( repeating shots, music on top of the shows own soundtrack and dialogue etc ) but was surprised to enjoy the show itself.
Hopefully the BBC will pick it up as they did She-Ra( really enjoyed that one ) and can watch the rest of it on iPlayer at some point.
Cronch wrote: Does it? The franchise has been pretty much dead since the original ended, with one reboot 20 years ago. I've never seen nor heard anyone be excited for He-Man in all those years. The only franchise more dead must be Dino Riders.
It was a cultural background presence for decades, with lots of references and callbacks, and a call for a reboot, continuation, etc. Even as someone who didn't care, I saw it a lot.
As far as dead cartoon franchises go, there are unapologetically a lot. There's a wasteland of dead properties out there that never made it and are barely remembered.
Even relatively 'popular' ones are a lot more corner case and fan cults than something as mainstream as MOTU.
On other hand, while I personally don't care for MotU, it does have a lot of influence. And it's plain to see most of the negative reactions are coming from the usual suspects for the usual reasons.
While I agree MOTU does have influence, I'm very skeptical the negative reactions that are coming from the usual suspects for the usual reasons have any notable influence. The usual reasons are pretty much about the Culture War and how Woke Corporations are Trying to Kill their Childhoods and many of these suspects also were making negative noise when She-Ra was announced.
I will give them that the marketing was bait and switch, but that they are trying to turn this into another battlefield in their Culture War is not only eye rolling but also hilarious as 6 months ago many of them were heralding MOTU:Revelations as the "real MOTU show for real men (unlike that evil gay agenda She-Ra)".
Cronch wrote: Does it? The franchise has been pretty much dead since the original ended, with one reboot 20 years ago. I've never seen nor heard anyone be excited for He-Man in all those years. The only franchise more dead must be Dino Riders.
It was a cultural background presence for decades, with lots of references and callbacks, and a call for a reboot, continuation, etc. Even as someone who didn't care, I saw it a lot.
As far as dead cartoon franchises go, there are unapologetically a lot. There's a wasteland of dead properties out there that never made it and are barely remembered.
Even relatively 'popular' ones are a lot more corner case and fan cults than something as mainstream as MOTU.
Silverhawks reboot greenlighted, btw
No real idea what that one is. I was out of the country when it aired, and never seen anyone reference it before.
the wiki makes it sound forgettable, a single run show that's only remembered because it came on the heels of thundercats.
No real idea what that one is. I was out of the country when it aired, and never seen anyone reference it before.
the wiki makes it sound forgettable, a single run show that's only remembered because it came on the heels of thundercats.
Same here, although it does have an equally awesome theme tune by Bernie Hoffer. The cyborg cowboy playing his electric guitar with a big grin is both super cringe and badass at the same time...
Silverhawks were mostly just a toy commercial. I don't recall much about the show other than the theme song, but the toys stood out with the metallic paint jobs and some fun spring loaded play features.
LunarSol wrote: Silverhawks were mostly just a toy commercial. I don't recall much about the show other than the theme song, but the toys stood out with the metallic paint jobs and some fun spring loaded play features.
Azreal13 wrote: If you wanna deep dive toy franchises that disappeared without trace, how about Marshall Bravestarr?
I fething LOVE Bravestarr. I made some friends watch it on Youtube about a year ago. The theme song for Bravestarr is amazing. And the cyborg horse Thirty/Thirty is just the biggest bad ass.
It really was an odd toy range. Firstly the scale was huge, then there were some really odd characters like the guy who transformered into a scooter, the green barkeep with spring loaded drinks tray frisbee action, Deputy Fuzz and his long sticky whip (not a euphemism.)
I had so much of this stuff, from Fort Kirium down!
Azreal13 wrote: If you wanna deep dive toy franchises that disappeared without trace, how about Marshall Bravestarr?
There was a show that used to flutter around in the back of my memory that no one could remember like some kind of fever dream for years. I finally found it again: Vytor: The Starfire Champion.
LunarSol wrote: Silverhawks were mostly just a toy commercial. I don't recall much about the show other than the theme song, but the toys stood out with the metallic paint jobs and some fun spring loaded play features.
That’s getting a reboot I believe
Silverhawks was very formulaic, basically Thundercats....there was another show like this called Tigersharks. The 3 of them i think all came out of the same studio about the same time...and were all pretty much the same.
So, I also watched the show, to see what the fuss is about. When I was a kid, I maaaybe saw an episode or 2 of he-man, I don't really remember, because if I did see some of it, it was on German TV via satellite at my aunt So not really a fan of the show.
And to be honest, I can see why actual fans would a bit unhappy. No He-man, Teela being really unlikeable and seemingly no boys allowed in the hero group? Even that guy, man-at-arms, was sidelined in a way that I was scratching my head.
What I find interesting is that the only way they seem to be able to write a strong female lead is to basically make her a man. She looks almost bigger than the original He-man A bit ironic. And here I thought propagating unrealistic body image is frowned upon nowadays
Honest question, because I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, but I liked her character just fine. So I'm curious as to why people think she's unlikeable.
What I find interesting is that the only way they seem to be able to write a strong female lead is to basically make her a man. She looks almost bigger than the original He-man
You might want to adjust the aspect ratio on your screen. Even He-Man in this isn't bigger than the original. Teela is quite recognisably a woman, just a muscly one... which is entirely appropriate for the character, given her job description.
I didn't find Teela unlikable at all. I think she is one of the most interesting things in the show.
As for making her "like a man" because she has muscles?
The idea that you think of that as "man like" as opposed to physically fit/muscle bound probably has more to do with your perception of womans roles in society then anything else. It's not "like a man" to have muscle mass and definition. You only need to take a step outside and look at any normal person walking around to realize how insane He-Mans body shape is and how unfit most people are male or female.
Honest question, because I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, but I liked her character just fine. So I'm curious as to why people think she's unlikeable.
She seemed very bitchy to me. Don't know a better word to describe it. Also the fact they tried to portray her as amazing and flawless. In the very first episode they even told us so if I remember correctly Which always makes me roll my eyes when they do that in movies.
What I find interesting is that the only way they seem to be able to write a strong female lead is to basically make her a man. She looks almost bigger than the original He-man
You might want to adjust the aspect ratio on your screen. Even He-Man in this isn't bigger than the original. Teela is quite recognisably a woman, just a muscly one... which is entirely appropriate for the character, given her job description.
Well, she's quite muscly indeed. Even natural female bodybuilders would have a hard time competing with Teela
I watched the first episode of the original filmation He-man afterwards to get an idea of the differences between the shows and He-man in that show isn't actually that big. New Teela is pretty close to that The impression I got was that they strengthened male attributes in her to make her look strong. Nothing wrong with that, but if you want to make to ma a strong female character, making her manly seems a bit lazy, no?
In the end, I don't really care how muscly they make her, it's a cartoon. I just find it kind of ironic
Her newfound musclyness being one of them. Her appearance is more manly than feminine especially when contrasted to her original design from what I can see. To me it just felt like that they wanted to make her a new He-man.
I think you’re imagining it. She’s got more muscles than the original, sure, but the original was practically a Barbie. She no where near the size of the dudes in this, as they also bulked up.
AduroT wrote: I think you’re imagining it. She’s got more muscles than the original, sure, but the original was practically a Barbie. She no where near the size of the dudes in this, as they also bulked up.
I'm not comparing her to other characters in this new show, I'm comparing her to her original design and to the original He-man.
We can agree to disagree, it's fine
Good luck to every girl who'd like to look like the new Teela It's honestly even more extreme than the old Teela, since that look you can get with a corset at least.
Balerion wrote: Good luck to every girl who'd like to look like the new Teela It's honestly even more extreme than the old Teela, since that look you can get with a corset at least.
Balerion wrote: Good luck to every girl who'd like to look like the new Teela It's honestly even more extreme than the old Teela, since that look you can get with a corset at least.
pic
And how did you get THAT from what I wrote? You are projecting too much, mate.
Please explain how you got to that conclusion, I'm very interested in those mental gymnastics you did
EDIT: oh cmon, you accused me of thinking women are objects and then you remove it, while I'm replying? not cool!
EDIT2: Teela's arms are like twice as big as the woman in the picture. So not sure what's that supposed to prove.
Balerion wrote: Good luck to every girl who'd like to look like the new Teela It's honestly even more extreme than the old Teela, since that look you can get with a corset at least.
Unlike He-Man, who has a physique any dude could easily achieve.
Balerion wrote: Good luck to every girl who'd like to look like the new Teela It's honestly even more extreme than the old Teela, since that look you can get with a corset at least.
pic
And how did you get THAT from what I wrote? You are projecting too much, mate.
Please explain how you got to that conclusion, I'm very interested in those mental gymnastics you did
EDIT: oh cmon, you accused me of thinking women are objects and then you remove it, while I'm replying? not cool!
EDIT2: Teela's arms are like twice as big as the woman in the picture. So not sure what's that supposed to prove.
I removed the comment cause the picture did better job of it. But also yes, I still think you believe women exist to please your eyes, as evident from your reaction to "manly" buff teela.
Balerion wrote: Good luck to every girl who'd like to look like the new Teela It's honestly even more extreme than the old Teela, since that look you can get with a corset at least.
Unlike He-Man, who has a physique any dude could easily achieve.
So the solution is not to make actual achievable physique on the characters, but add more unachievable physiques? Isn't that kind of weird? If old Teela had unattainable physique (and I'd argue it's not that unattainable if a woman wants to suffer in a corset like in history... ) then is really the solution to go in the other extreme? Because getting a physique like new Teela in a natural way.... well, good luck and hats off to every woman who pulls that off.
What's confusing to me is the fact, that people nowadays complain about unattainable physiques for your average human (fitness models in ads etc.) and then they make characters like Teela or others a bodybuilder.
It's a cartoon, so whatever, but don't tell me new Teela has a human female physique and the old Teela doesn't Because that's crazy talk.
As for He-man, the old one looks like Arnold physique to me. The new one is nuts.
The achievable physique thing is a red herring. For me, new Teela actually looks like someone whose job involves hitting other people with heavy things, while original Teela looks like a Barbie doll.
You don't have to find it attractive. She's not going to sleep with you anyway. But the idea that she shouldn't have visible muscle definition is just... Odd.
I removed the comment cause the picture did better job of it. But also yes, I still think you believe women exist to please your eyes, as evident from your reaction to "manly" buff teela.
Maybe you are just missing the point here mate You are just projecting your ideas here.
Let me ask you a question, kind of personal. What experience do you have with weight lifting, bulking and cutting? I'm asking because what I'm trying to say, is that new Teela's physique is even harder to achieve for your average woman than the old Teela's. If we are talking about human female proportions that is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote: The achievable physique thing is a red herring. For me, new Teela actually looks like someone whose job involves hitting other people with heavy things, while original Teela looks like a Barbie doll.
You don't have to find it attractive. She's not going to sleep with you anyway. But the idea that she shouldn't have visible muscle definition is just... Odd.
Whoa whoa. How did we got to attractiveness and sleeping with someone? Guys, this is an animated cartoon, if you are going to discuss stuff like this, leave me out of it
EDIT: Having muscle definition is not the issue here.
new Teela's physique is even harder to achieve for your average woman
Good thing she's a goddamn super-hero in a fantasy land where a man drawing a sword can grow and shrink in mass on demand.
it's amazing how he-man's physique is okay, cause he's obviously a Heroic Male, but Teela's badwrong cause an average female would not be able to look like her.
Average western human male on planet earth is overweight, and more men are overweight than female. He-man is more unrealistic than teela.
new Teela's physique is even harder to achieve for your average woman
Good thing she's a goddamn super-hero in a fantasy land where a man drawing a sword can grow and shrink in mass on demand.
it's amazing how he-man's physique is okay, cause he's obviously a Heroic Male, but Teela's badwrong cause an average female would not be able to look like her.
Average western human male on planet earth is overweight, and more men are overweight than female. He-man is more unrealistic than teela.
See? I said the same things. It's a cartoon so they can make her as big as they want, but then don't tell me that she has real human female physique unlike original Teela. Because she doesn't.
original teela also didn't have human female physique. A human female can get big muscular arms. A human female cannot get waist as thin as OG teela without surgery or corsets.
insaniak wrote: Honest question, because I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, but I liked her character just fine. So I'm curious as to why people think she's unlikeable.
She didn't have the most sympathetic introduction to her character arc.
Randor: "My son" :(
Marlena: "My son" :(
Man at Arms: "Your son" :(
Teela: "You pack of liars! I hate you all! ME!" (paraphrased)
The show didn't take the time to build up to this - it's hard to sell character defining betrayal without defining the character, harder still when up to that point Teela had been lavished with praise, entrusted with power, and barely exchanged two words with Adam or He-Man. The whole story really lacks buildup to give the scene more weight than dummy-spitting outrage.
The only human in Masters of the Universe is Queen Marlena.
Adam, Teela, Randor and Duncan are Eternians.
Who’s to say Eternian musculature matches us weedy Humies? Certainly Duncan is a hunka hunka burning love with a physique to match He-Man’s, if not the raw strength the power of Greyskull grants the latter.
And we never see them working out. Stands to reason they therefore have a higher than us muscle mass.
Cronch wrote: original teela also didn't have human female physique. A human female can get big muscular arms. A human female cannot get waist as thin as OG teela without surgery or corsets.
Yes, women were able to achieve even thinner waists with corsets. I agree that it's unrealistic. Because even walking in a corset THAT tight would kill her. But it IS possible to achieve that look with a corset is all I'm saying. Both looks are unrealistic, so I'm just not buying the argument that new one is more realistic than the other
with a corset. with external help. A human female MAY get shredded. A human female willl not have waist that you can actually close your hand around without external tools. That's the difference. One look is literally impossible for a human female to achieve naturally, the other just requires hard work.
Cronch wrote: with a corset. with external help. A human female MAY get shredded. A human female willl not have waist that you can actually close your hand around without external tools. That's the difference. One look is literally impossible for a human female to achieve naturally, the other just requires hard work.
Of course, that's true, but the thing is, that it's not just about being shredded. But getting arms big like that is the more difficult part. So I'll disagree with you on this.
You can point to pictures of athletes, even in this thread, but those that have arms that big, have also bigger bodies. That's the point. You can of course always find an outlier, but even professional female athletes will struggle to get those huge arms. Now if said woman used the external help of steroids...
If we talk about achievability, then it's much easier to get a corset and go for the old Teela look, just saying
Anyway, we are going in rounds. I'll disagree with the argument, that new Teela's look is more realistic or achievable than the old one and leave it at that
Honest question, because I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, but I liked her character just fine. So I'm curious as to why people think she's unlikeable.
That whole bit about being pissed off at Adam and berating him to his face when he was the one who died to save everyone was certainly something that makes her unlikable to me. There's also the constant lashing out at her friends and team mates time and time again.
insaniak wrote: Honest question, because I've seen it mentioned a couple of times, but I liked her character just fine. So I'm curious as to why people think she's unlikeable.
She didn't have the most sympathetic introduction to her character arc.
Randor: "My son" :(
Marlena: "My son" :(
Man at Arms: "Your son" :(
Teela: "You pack of liars! I hate you all! ME!" (paraphrased)
The show didn't take the time to build up to this - it's hard to sell character defining betrayal without defining the character, harder still when up to that point Teela had been lavished with praise, entrusted with power, and barely exchanged two words with Adam or He-Man. The whole story really lacks buildup to give the scene more weight than dummy-spitting outrage.
Different people handle grief in different ways. Teela had it land on her twice. First at the lost of her countries greatest champion, her companion, who she had been fighting side by side with for presumably years. And then she gets home to find out that it isn't only this person she trusted her life to, but also her best friend since she was a small child. Her reaction to this double blow of grief is anger and a sense of betrayal. It literally wasn't about anyone else's feelings then, because she was processing her own.
Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
Watched it last night - thought it was pretty good.
It's loaded with a lot of great moments and does a good job selling itself as a sequel to the frequently absurd original series, though I think it suffers a bit because of its limited episode count: in the original series Teela could have gone through an arc like this over the course of one episode but by trying to serialize it while limiting it to 5 episodes it ironically feels rushed.
I remember listening to Kevin Smith's podcast where he mentioned that he had pitched this idea (I think right after he got confirmation that Mattel had accepted it) though he couldn't mention specifics I think we see a lot of that pitch in the final product. In contrast to She-Ra which is a thorough reimagining of the show based on the existing premise, He-Man styles itself as a sequel to the original, in all its faux-heavy metal toy mongering glory and revels in it.
I see the ending getting a lot of flack, but I don't think it's going to be a problem. Kevin Smith knows the internet and the ending seems tailor made to troll the bad actors, as a part-one cliffhanger I think it works great but they've tipped their hand a little too hard.
Spoiler:
If they were actually going to kill Adam off, that spear would have gone through his chest.
Overall, good show, great in its premise and execution, but it chafes hard against its limited runtime. Glad to see Scareglow get some love.
However, I think the writing is sub par and to predictive, though I love the inclusion of 'in your face' puns to relate back to the classic.
The story is a bit meh and I hate how He-man is dead? (female protagonists but being all the rage I suppose).
See how it goes if get season 2. If had to rate would say 5/10. Does the nostalgia (with intros with all the old toys etc) but not the substance and side note where is the after episode in you face moral lesson (if fully pulling the pun?)
Lance845 wrote: Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
What relationship?
None of that was a culmination of character development. No time was taken to establish who she was or what her relationships were to separate grief from shallow egotism, she might as well have been screaming at the king for getting Mossman killed for all the narrative lead-in it was given.
Hell even the timing of her 'you are all liars' rant was a response to the King being outraged that he hadn't been told and still placing his trust in her. That and half the episode spent singing her praises - frankly she could have been a petty self centered villian trying to destroy magic for the rest of the series and would it really have gone against what they had established of her up to that point?
I would argue that the root of the issue is that MOTU didn't really had a story nor properly established characters.
So by trying to make a short 10 episodes long sequel, Kevin Smith is basically building sand castles because there is no prior character building to expand upon. He had to make everything out of thin air and there is no way you can satisfactorily do that in 10 episodes.
Tyran wrote: I would argue that the root of the issue is that MOTU didn't really had a story nor properly established characters.
So by trying to make a short 10 episodes long sequel, Kevin Smith is basically building sand castles because there is no prior character building to expand upon.
Are you refering to the original MOTU series?
If so I disagree - if Smith didn't lay the foundation for his own story he has no-one to blame but himself.
I would argue that such hand-holding is unnecessary even if the narrative was a stand-alone story or reinterpretation of these characters - especially so when you have a short runtime. In this case though it's doubly unnecessary: it's a sequel to the original cartoon, Teela and Adam's relationship is carried over thusly and her reaction is the fallout to decisions made during the original series (both in-universe and out of universe) and they don't need to stop and explain it any more than they need to stop and explain that Cringer transforms into Battle Cat.
I do think it feels rushed though, and I don't neccesarily think they needed to eject the king and queen from the narrative, with one more episode in its runtime you could have had Teela remain as man at arms and still have her follow the inciting incident while also choosing reluctantly to go against the king's wishes - but a lot of neat ideas will have to be pruned if you're covering 15 episodes worth of stuff in 5.
My main issue with Teela's response to... everything, is that we're not given any real build up to go along with it. Where so much of the series is about trying to establish character relationships and motivations, we're not given any real time with Teela and Adam to understand their relationship and sympathize with the sense of loss and betrayal she lashes out with. That's all left on the shoulders of the original, which I just don't think is capable of doing that job.
The show does a lot of retcon world building that feels really weird without having spent time in the world itself. I have similar odd responses to things like the angry mob and enchanted water. Getting some time in the world prior where we could have seen people depend on enchanted water would have made the situation feel more organic and helped bring the world to life.
Ultimately I can't help shake the feeling that what the show really needs is an episode or two of reestablishing the original dynamic before subverting it. Like, in my head the world was always kind of a barbaric wasteland. The loss of magic doesn't really make things feel any worse off than they already did, despite constantly being told how bad things are now.
Lance845 wrote: Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
What relationship?
She is part of a tight knit battle unit that is been in the front lines of a battle against Skeletor and his forces for -insert however long this has been going on-. This elite unit includes He-Man, Man at Arms, The Sorceress, Orko, Battlecat. She is the only person in that group who wasn't trusted with the truth. Double blow, the person hiding it from her is in reality her best friend, Adam. Triple blow, Man at Arms is her father. quadruple blow, the Queen who she serves directly is in on it too.
None of that was a culmination of character development. No time was taken to establish who she was or what her relationships were to separate grief from shallow egotism, she might as well have been screaming at the king for getting Mossman killed for all the narrative lead-in it was given.
Hence it's a continuation of a series that already existed. I would agree with this statement more if the series wasn't based on the idea that it's a sequel. I don't need John Wick 2 and 3 to give me scenes reestablishing his love for his now deceased wife. This show doesn't need to have a multiple episode build up to establish who Teela is. The show does it already. The corronation for her Rank to Man at Arms establishes her relationship to the kingdom and her father. They talk about her service. The rest of the show features flash back and character moments where they build on how each character is connected to her. The convo with Cringer. The whole episode with Man at Arms and Orko. It's all in the brief 5 episodes. You just have to watch them.
Hell even the timing of her 'you are all liars' rant was a response to the King being outraged that he hadn't been told and still placing his trust in her. That and half the episode spent singing her praises - frankly she could have been a petty self centered villian trying to destroy magic for the rest of the series and would it really have gone against what they had established of her up to that point?
See above. The king was ALSO lied to all this time. They both reacted with anger. Teela is unlikable for it and nobody has any bad word to say about King Randor. Whats the difference?
See above. The king was ALSO lied to all this time. They both reacted with anger. Teela is unlikable for it and nobody has any bad word to say about King Randor. Whats the difference?
Randor immediately stops being a character at that point. Teela defines the remaining episodes.
Least this time round Adam and He-Man are different shapes, always thought Teela (and everyone else really) had a case of Lane's disease (the inability to discern between the same person wearing a rubbish disguise like a shirt or glasses)
No build up? Even in the original show's legendary opening title sequence alone we know that Adam and Cringer are really He-Man and Battlecat, and that "only three others share this secret" - Man-at-Arms, Orko and the Sorceress. Thats without even lifting a finger...
In almost all the episodes the rest of the characters are asking "Where did Adam run off to? Oh, He-Man, thank goodness you're here!" and they even had many episodes that dived deeper still; Adam gets frustrated that he can't let Randor know who he really is, Marlena implies to Adam that she does know who he is, the Sorceress is upset that she can't have a proper parent-child relationship with her own daughter, Teela constantly putting him down because no one has told her that adam is he-man...
...and all those episodes are on youtube - right now - for free! Why, they even had a few episodes where He-man had a twin sister and she had a whole gay-pride parade of friends including a rainbow-winged flying unicorn and a fully grown moustached man with a heart on his shirt, answering to the name of "Bo". I know that sounds like a mad, woke idea, but its all in there.
And lets face it, the original series had its dark moments...
Lance845 wrote: Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
What relationship?
She is part of a tight knit battle unit that is been in the front lines of a battle against Skeletor and his forces for -insert however long this has been going on-. This elite unit includes He-Man, Man at Arms, The Sorceress, Orko, Battlecat. She is the only person in that group who wasn't trusted with the truth. Double blow, the person hiding it from her is in reality her best friend, Adam. Triple blow, Man at Arms is her father. quadruple blow, the Queen who she serves directly is in on it too.
Except that Adam and the rest couldn't tell her. The Sorceress was the one who had them all hide the secret in the first place.
I can't exactly find her sympathetic when she decided to unload all of this on the person who died though. I could somewhat understand her before that but afterwords it was just really.. All about "Me" Teela.
Lance845 wrote: She is part of a tight knit battle unit that is been in the front lines of a battle against Skeletor and his forces for -insert however long this has been going on-.]
This has been going on for 0 episodes.
"That cheesy kids cartoon that last aired a decade before half the audience was born" is not adequate character development for anything, let alone a show that ditches the most established characters from said cartoon and replaces the rest with reinterpretations and a time skip on the setting.
Lance845 wrote: Teela is unlikable for it and nobody has any bad word to say about King Randor. Whats the difference?
It's the Teela show. King Randor promptly vanishes off the face of Eternia and is forgotten.
Besides his response is more reasonable despite being an ass about it - if he had thrown down his crown and stormed out of the palace ranting about how he was done with his whole lying kingdom it might have garnered more attention, mostly about how stupid it would have been I imagine.
This has been going on for 0 episodes.
"That cheesy kids cartoon that last aired a decade before half the audience was born" is not adequate character development for anything, let alone a show that ditches the most established characters from said cartoon and replaces the rest with reinterpretations and a time skip on the setting.
Again, as has been pointed out, this show is designed as a sequel. As with all sequels there's an assumption you know what the feth is going on.
Did you start watching GoT in Season 3 and complain about how none of it made sense? Watch The Lost World and be angry about how all the dinosaurs.came out of nowhere?
You have to wonder if the marketing teams are more aware than we give them credit for. I agree with the general sentiment about the angry nerds (I was reading a thread elsewhere of people dumping on this, and in the next breath complaining that the action figures were sold out everywhere!).
Between the marketing and the angry nerds, they "got me" one other time. DC put out a Titans show and the promo material showed some doughy, lame, unflattering interpretations of some of the Titans, and an edgelord Robin. It was presented as a social justice gakfest that the angry nerds didn't like, so I passed on it. Then I ended up just buying both seasons and watching it for the hell of it, and Hawk and Dove stole the show. A football bro and a "girly girl" (who was about the best looking choice they could have made), damaged and co dependent, with "superhero" bodies and real acting talent. They didn't promote them (or Wonder Girl, who was about as well translated as you could expect) and went with their worst stuff instead. Don't get me wrong it was still pretty awful (if they recognized what they had and made a Hawk and Dove show, they might have had a hit!), but not for the reasons I expected. You have to wonder if they were thinking "any publicity is good publicity" as their strategy, or am I that out of touch?
It was the same thing for this. They made this seem like it would feature He-Man in the promos. It didn't, and it got the angry nerds upset. I had previously tried to watch and did not finish the Voltron, GI Joe, Transformers reboots, but watched every episode of the MOTU show to see what the fuss was about. And in the end it was just as mediocre as the above. IMO you don't have to be an angry nerd, incel or whatever to find it tiresome. They "got" me again with the marketing, so overall I guess it was a success?
Spoiler:
I expect that the new character (who probably WAS Teela earlier in development until "Buffy" became involved) will either get the sword and "have the power" or possibly the two of them will wield the split sword.
I expect that the new character (who probably WAS Teela earlier in development until "Buffy" became involved) will either get the sword and "have the power" or possibly the two of them will wield the split sword.
Imagine the internet's reaction if they...
Spoiler:
pulled a Mighty Man, and just had Teela or whomever hold up the sword and turn into He-Man?
Azreal13 wrote: Again, as has been pointed out, this show is designed as a sequel. As with all sequels there's an assumption you know what the feth is going on.
Did you start watching GoT in Season 3 and complain about how none of it made sense? Watch The Lost World and be angry about how all the dinosaurs.came out of nowhere?
I guess that depends.
Did GoT Season 3 air 40 years after season 2 and follow the adventures of Hot Pie, a jacked up and jaded assassin battling his way through Essos a decade after the winter war had ended with his long time companion Axl the dire wolf and a serious chip on his shoulder that no-one told him earlier that Jon Snow was heir to the throne? [spoilers]
That said i'd have bought it as a reasonable excuse if the show was a spiritual successor, which is to say in the same spirit and style as the original. Everyone cheery and hopeful, he-man throwing the odd mountain at skeletor, and so on.
But just having the same names and broad visual designs does not make them the same characters. The original Teela would have responded differently - and when you change the characters responses, motivations, etc then you need to do the work setting up who they are now.
This has been going on for 0 episodes.
"That cheesy kids cartoon that last aired a decade before half the audience was born" is not adequate character development for anything, let alone a show that ditches the most established characters from said cartoon and replaces the rest with reinterpretations and a time skip on the setting.
Again, as has been pointed out, this show is designed as a sequel. As with all sequels there's an assumption you know what the feth is going on.
Did you start watching GoT in Season 3 and complain about how none of it made sense? Watch The Lost World and be angry about how all the dinosaurs.came out of nowhere?
Can it be considered a proper sequel if they've changed actual canon inbetween? Orko was retconned to be a complete failure of a wizard even on Trolla his home plane, when he was a grand wizard before but his magic just didn't work correctly in Eternia. There's a possibility of other changes as well that we don't know of inbetween the scenes.
Lance845 wrote: Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
What relationship?
She is part of a tight knit battle unit that is been in the front lines of a battle against Skeletor and his forces for -insert however long this has been going on-. This elite unit includes He-Man, Man at Arms, The Sorceress, Orko, Battlecat. She is the only person in that group who wasn't trusted with the truth. Double blow, the person hiding it from her is in reality her best friend, Adam. Triple blow, Man at Arms is her father. quadruple blow, the Queen who she serves directly is in on it too.
Except that Adam and the rest couldn't tell her. The Sorceress was the one who had them all hide the secret in the first place.
Doesn't mean they had to go along with it.
Especially given the other secret in play with the Sorceress... (which makes the whole thing that much more of a betrayal)
I can't exactly find her sympathetic when she decided to unload all of this on the person who died though. I could somewhat understand her before that but afterwords it was just really.. All about "Me" Teela.
What? Seriously, what?
Are you unfamiliar with grief at all? Rage at the person who died is one of the _most common_ human reactions.
Anger is seriously step 2 (or 3 if you hold to the '7 stages of grief' theory instead of 5)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Can it be considered a proper sequel if they've changed actual canon inbetween?
Yes.
Trivial retcons to a side character or even large swaths of 'canon' don't make anything 'not a sequel,' otherwise all comics and many many films/tv shows (star wars, star trek, stargate, Buffy/Angel, etc, etc) are completely invalid.
Azreal13 wrote: Again, as has been pointed out, this show is designed as a sequel. As with all sequels there's an assumption you know what the feth is going on.
Did you start watching GoT in Season 3 and complain about how none of it made sense? Watch The Lost World and be angry about how all the dinosaurs.came out of nowhere?
I guess that depends.
Did GoT Season 3 air 40 years after season 2 and follow the adventures of Hot Pie, a jacked up and jaded assassin battling his way through Essos a decade after the winter war had ended with his long time companion Axl the dire wolf and a serious chip on his shoulder that no-one told him earlier that Jon Snow was heir to the throne? [spoilers]
That said i'd have bought it as a reasonable excuse if the show was a spiritual successor, which is to say in the same spirit and style as the original. Everyone cheery and hopeful, he-man throwing the odd mountain at skeletor, and so on.
But just having the same names and broad visual designs does not make them the same characters. The original Teela would have responded differently - and when you change the characters responses, motivations, etc then you need to do the work setting up who they are now.
Ah, so you're objecting to sequels with decades between story arcs that focus on other characters?
I mean, who even is Han Solo anyway?
Can it be considered a proper sequel if they've changed actual canon inbetween?
Lance845 wrote: Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
What relationship?
She is part of a tight knit battle unit that is been in the front lines of a battle against Skeletor and his forces for -insert however long this has been going on-. This elite unit includes He-Man, Man at Arms, The Sorceress, Orko, Battlecat. She is the only person in that group who wasn't trusted with the truth. Double blow, the person hiding it from her is in reality her best friend, Adam. Triple blow, Man at Arms is her father. quadruple blow, the Queen who she serves directly is in on it too.
Except that Adam and the rest couldn't tell her. The Sorceress was the one who had them all hide the secret in the first place.
Doesn't mean they had to go along with it.
Especially given the other secret in play with the Sorceress... (which makes the whole thing that much more of a betrayal)
Even in the old show he didn't want to go along with it but did. Knowing he had to because if he did if Skelator or the others managed to wrangle out the secrets it would cause problems for all. So he had to suffer that silence.
What? Seriously, what?
Are you unfamiliar with grief at all? Rage at the person who died is one of the _most common_ human reactions.
Anger is seriously step 2 (or 3 if you hold to the '7 stages of grief' theory instead of 5)
It would be depending on what that sort of reaction.
Her reaction however was "You died and we had to live with it because you didn't tell me your secrets till then". Being locked out of the loop when the guy who died to save you (and comments on that fact) and acting as if you are suffering worse then the guy who *died* just seems completely selfish. Yes it's grief but it doesn't make one sympathetic.
Yes.
Trivial retcons to a side character or even large swaths of 'canon' don't make anything 'not a sequel,' otherwise all comics and many many films/tv shows (star wars, star trek, stargate, Buffy/Angel, etc, etc) are completely invalid.
I suppose this is true. Though acting like a direct sequel while changing direct things is.. always strange to me.
I suppose I haven't actually watched the original series in its entirety recently enough to properly understand the emotional state of the characters going into the first episode.... but the original series was really not one in which character interactions drove the plot. It takes a pretty extreme read of the original series for the events of the first episode to leave you feeling betrayed the way Teela does and even then, pinning your main characters primary arc on an obscure reading of 40 year old material isn't a great way to tell a story.
LunarSol wrote: I suppose I haven't actually watched the original series in its entirety recently enough to properly understand the emotional state of the characters going into the first episode.... but the original series was really not one in which character interactions drove the plot. It takes a pretty extreme read of the original series for the events of the first episode to leave you feeling betrayed the way Teela does and even then, pinning your main characters primary arc on an obscure reading of 40 year old material isn't a great way to tell a story.
I don't find it extreme at all. I find it someone looking back at a childish telling of a scenario which was more often than not played for laughs, and thinking "actually, that would really suck for that character pretty hard. Were she a living, breathing character and not a cardboard cutout proxy for an action figure, she'd feel hurt, betrayed and humiliated, and if that came at a time when she was also grieving for the person who she felt had inflicted those emotions on her at that time, she'd be a mess."
Which is a fine route to work from, but if the original doesn't actually set that up, it's kind of on you to take the effort to establish the relationship you're building the character off of. "A real person would" is fine, but you have to take the time to make the relationships "real" to the audience if the original text put in no effort to do so.
LunarSol wrote: Which is a fine route to work from, but if the original doesn't actually set that up, it's kind of on you to take the effort to establish the relationship you're building the character off of. "A real person would" is fine, but you have to take the time to make the relationships "real" to the audience if the original text put in no effort to do so.
But... they do. Even if you come into this knowing nothing about the original show, they show you right there in the first episode that Teela is Adam's best friend, that Man At Arms is her adoptive father, and that they're a tight knit group of friends who all know about Adam's secret... except for her. I'm not really sure how much more set-up you need.
Lance845 wrote: Thats only not sympathetic if you expect only a single cookie cutter response to death and ignore her relationship to both the deceased and literally everyone else in the room.
What relationship?
She is part of a tight knit battle unit that is been in the front lines of a battle against Skeletor and his forces for -insert however long this has been going on-. This elite unit includes He-Man, Man at Arms, The Sorceress, Orko, Battlecat. She is the only person in that group who wasn't trusted with the truth. Double blow, the person hiding it from her is in reality her best friend, Adam. Triple blow, Man at Arms is her father. quadruple blow, the Queen who she serves directly is in on it too.
Except that Adam and the rest couldn't tell her. The Sorceress was the one who had them all hide the secret in the first place.
Doesn't mean they had to go along with it.
Especially given the other secret in play with the Sorceress... (which makes the whole thing that much more of a betrayal)
Even in the old show he didn't want to go along with it but did. Knowing he had to because if he did if Skelator or the others managed to wrangle out the secrets it would cause problems for all. So he had to suffer that silence.
Eh. It happened because of a basically nonsense genre convention for 80s cartoons. There wasn't ever any real reason for it- he was already a target, as prince of the planet. His family and friends were already targets (being the royal family and their retainers, and the retainers actively fought the bad guys openly). Its only a negative for Adam, as it means his father and his people view him as a useless coward. (Which gets straight up mentioned during the ceremony, when his father wishes for an opportunity to show paternal pride someday)
The original She-ra was actually worse about this (which seems kind of unbelievable, but 80s Adora had no connections whatsoever, and was publicly just a sidekick for active members of the rebellion once she defected from the Horde. Having a secret protected.... the complete lack of noncombatants in her life. Also somehow she publicly went from being a Force Captain of the Horde to a completely useless civilian, and that was believable because... reasons). For the reboot Noelle and company just said 'screw this noise' because secret identities make zero sense for this kind of show. And the first episode of this is the perfect example of why they make no sense.
What? Seriously, what?
Are you unfamiliar with grief at all? Rage at the person who died is one of the _most common_ human reactions.
Anger is seriously step 2 (or 3 if you hold to the '7 stages of grief' theory instead of 5)
Her reaction however was "You died and we had to live with it because you didn't tell me your secrets till then". Being locked out of the loop when the guy who died to save you (and comments on that fact) and acting as if you are suffering worse then the guy who *died* just seems completely selfish. Yes it's grief but it doesn't make one sympathetic.
Is the goal to make grieving people sympathetic? I'm not sure at all where you're going here. Dead people are dead; they aren't suffering. Grief is the pain of the people who survive the deceased. It doesn't just go away because its unpleasant, or yes, even ugly.
She's lost her best friend, prince and everyone she knows has been blatantly lying to her all her life. Character hit bottom, basically, now they get a character arc to rise above all that. Its pretty straightfoward storytelling.
Dying to save her is a stretch. That was a 'crack the planet/universe in half, everyone dies' scenario.
Had it not been a pile of secrets about magic nonsense (and getting Greyskull was always a goal of Skeletors so its unclear how any of the secrets helped), they could have put real defenses and a proper garrison around Castle Greyskull. The obsession with mystic nonsense and secrets really was a contributing factor to his death. Though admittedly the main factor was the Idiot Ball that everyone held onto for the rush through the first episode. 'Haha, I've figured everything out' and the 'No I won't bother to check (through this telepathic bond) if the single person who is allowed to come in is actually not where he should be at this exact moment of the celebration that I can see from this hill' was a pretty poor setup.
They tell you all this, but don't really show it. They don't spend time on it or make it matter to the audience. Referencing relationships isn't the same as giving the audience the opportunity experience them directly. Betrayal is a really raw emotion; its entirely based on forged bonds proving false and to empathize you need to share in those bonds with the characters.
When a king introduces "their most loyal and trusted advisor" who stabs them in the back; there's almost never a real sense of betrayal. You didn't get to share in the times where they helped reach a compromise that averted war or watched them be the confidant after a hard choice. The audience doesn't trust them and they certainly don't feel betrayed.
But in those stories the king isn't the main character. They fall so that evil can rise and create a villain for the hero of the story, who almost never trusts the advisor and is therefore shown to be smarter than the rest. Here though, the main character suffers betrayal, but we're not really given any means to share in that feeling. It drives her entire character going forward, but we're not given a reason to see things that way.
Audience can go along with the most unlikeable, unrelatable characters out there if they're shown something to see things from their perspective. The problem here is that we're not given the sense of trust needed to relate to the bitterness that follows.
Audience can go along with the most unlikeable, unrelatable characters out there if they're shown something to see things from their perspective. The problem here is that we're not given the sense of trust needed to relate to the bitterness that follows.
I don't agree. Beyond general knowledge of the show's existence and character names (and that I thought it was terrible) I don't have much knowledge of the original.
The opening episode was really bad at rushing through the plot elements, but it set up the characters just fine.
Teela goes from being honored for everything she's done in the past to a fight we're she's theoretically in command but not getting told everything (her father who she theoretically replaced is still barking orders at her), gets to see a man burned alive in front of her, then her friend gets outed and killed and then she's told to exile her father figured who was in on everything she wasn't ever told about.
It seems perfectly understandable why she's angry and bitter. More than enough to relate to for me. I'm not sure I would've burned my bridges with the king in that moment (but I'm a pretty cold person all told), but I'm not sure I would've stopped myself either. In the intensity of the moment, lashing out seems expected behavior, if not completely reasonable (but death, grief and betrayal are good reasons for unreasonableness).
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Her reaction however was "You died and we had to live with it because you didn't tell me your secrets till then". Being locked out of the loop when the guy who died to save you (and comments on that fact) and acting as if you are suffering worse then the guy who *died* just seems completely selfish. Yes it's grief but it doesn't make one sympathetic.
Is the goal to make grieving people sympathetic? I'm not sure at all where you're going here. Dead people are dead; they aren't suffering. Grief is the pain of the people who survive the deceased. It doesn't just go away because its unpleasant, or yes, even ugly.
She's lost her best friend, prince and everyone she knows has been blatantly lying to her all her life. Character hit bottom, basically, now they get a character arc to rise above all that. Its pretty straightfoward storytelling.
I want to point out this bit in particular. Where she lost my sympathy and I mentioned this before was where the dead came back to life and it's quite clear that he is indeed suffering, but she is blaming him for leaving her to his face for this. Yes the goal may not be to make grieving people sympathetic, but not much else is making me like this character.
insaniak wrote: Meh, the set up worked fine for me, and Teela's reaction seemed absolutely appropriate. But to each his own.
Agreed. Truthfully, I really want to like it and.... I'm not saying its bad. In terms of what happens, it's more or less exactly what I expected and I really hope it continues to build on what it's accomplished so far. I just continually found myself disappointed in how things happened, which is entirely subjective.
GoT Season 3 air 40 years after season 2 and follow the adventures of Hot Pie, a jacked up and jaded assassin battling his way through Essos a decade after the winter war had ended with his long time companion Axl the dire wolf and a serious chip on his shoulder that no-one told him earlier that Jon Snow was heir to the throne
Tell me that doesn't imply a significant chronological gap and a change in focus of character is your problem, while applying a snark filter to try and distil your actual point.
That throne room scene from the first episode is a good example of parasitic storytelling - you're expected to know why Teela acts like a horrible person, but not because the narrative properly outlines her actions, but because you've seen this story before.
It takes her three minutes of show time to find out Adam was He-Man, rant about her betrayed sense of self importance and walk away, and the only indication of her mental and emotional state is a couple seconds of looking shocked and a clenched fist.
His Master's Voice wrote: That throne room scene from the first episode is a good example of parasitic storytelling - you're expected to know why Teela acts like a horrible person, but not because the narrative properly outlines her actions, but because you've seen this story before.
And because they just showed you that Adam was her best friend, introduced her personal relationship with Man at Arms, and showed a tight-knit group of people she's been fighting alongside but who have been deliberately deceiving her for a good chunk of her adult life.
She's not acting like a 'horrible person'. She's acting like someone who just lost her best friend and at the same time found out that everyone she cares about has been lying to her.
Yes, the background stuff is condensed into a short timeframe so that they can get on with the actual story, in the same way as the MCU Hulk movie condensed Hulk's origin into the opening credits rather than wasting movie time telling you a bunch of stuff you already know. It's there for those people who aren't as familiar with the original story, but this being a sequal rather than a stand-alone product, it's just not worth spending a lot of time on.
Ohh yeah the The kingdom lost its prince, the king and queen are devastated at loosing THEIR CHILD, and Eternia lost friggin He-Man... but hold on Teelas' feelings got hurt.
Her self importance and self rightousness is what we are getting from the story? How does that make her in any way likeable or relatable??
Who acts like that?
If they wanted teela to appeal to a self righteous, arrogant, angry snarky entitled teenagers they have succeeded..
Not to mention when confronted with the quest to save ONLY THE FRIGGIN UNIVERSE her go to response is: "Nuhuhhhh fam.. screw the universe" Despite the fact she lives in the said universe...
What kind of relatable character writing is that? Clearly he wasn't that much of a best friend when rather then grieve she is angry that he didn't tell her the truth and she wasn't important enough to be "included" in the secret..
The whole thing is cringe bad but not in the good way..
Azreal13 wrote: Secondly - Tell me that doesn't imply a significant chronological gap and a change in focus of character is your problem, while applying a snark filter to try and distil your actual point.
As per my posts leading up to that point - my problem is with a lack of sufficient character development prior to the key pivotal character change, and specifically in this case that I don't agree that "this show is designed as a sequel" gets around the problem of poor character development.
And because they just showed you that Adam was her best friend, introduced her personal relationship with Man at Arms, and showed a tight-knit group of people she's been fighting alongside but who have been deliberately deceiving her for a good chunk of her adult life.
None of which is particularly relevant to my point. The actual showing of Teela's emotional and mental state immediately before and during the throne room scene is missing and the show expects you to fill in the blanks based on what you expect a character to feel in a situation like this.
It's as if The Empire Strikes Back went directly from "I AM YOUR FATHER", to Luke standing in the window of the Rebellion frigate, because who need characters emoting in context of the events of the story, right? We can just imagine Luke's distress.
insaniak wrote: She's not acting like a 'horrible person'. She's acting like someone who just lost her best friend and at the same time found out that everyone she cares about has been lying to her.
Now I'm not a He-Man aficionado, so maybe I'm looking at this wrong, but in the very episode we're discussing, Teela was described as trusted and capable enough to be promoted to a high (highest) military rank in the kingdom. Even if you ignore the inappropriate outburst in front of grieving parents, or the very personal insult her actions lie on her adoptive father, she's still abandoning her duty towards the state and people she was supposed to protect.
That she's emotional in that every moment is an explanation, not an excuse. And because the audience had to DIY her emotional state, she comes across as entirely self absorbed and uncaring.
insaniak wrote: Yes, the background stuff is condensed into a short timeframe so that they can get on with the actual story, in the same way as the MCU Hulk movie condensed Hulk's origin into the opening credits rather than wasting movie time telling you a bunch of stuff you already know. It's there for those people who aren't as familiar with the original story, but this being a sequal rather than a stand-alone product, it's just not worth spending a lot of time on.
This isn't about explaining the mechanics of a dude turning into another, angrier dude. This is about building a character the audience is supposed to connect with.
You get the gamma radiation (or whatever it was with Hulk) out of the way, so that you can get to the part where the protagonist struggles with his inner green demon and throws armoured cars around.
You skip the struggle and you generally end up with crap. Well, bigger crap than the Hulk movies already are.
Argive wrote: Ohh yeah the The kingdom lost its prince, the king and queen are devastated at loosing THEIR CHILD, and Eternia lost friggin He-Man... but hold on Teelas' feelings got hurt.
Her self importance and self rightousness is what we are getting from the story? How does that make her in any way likeable or relatable??
Who acts like that?
Most people, when dealing with grief and anger. They aren't weighing out suffering like its money being split from a pot to see who got the largest share of pain.
They're reacting to their own.
Azreal13 wrote: Secondly - Tell me that doesn't imply a significant chronological gap and a change in focus of character is your problem, while applying a snark filter to try and distil your actual point.
As per my posts leading up to that point - my problem is with a lack of sufficient character development prior to the key pivotal character change, and specifically in this case that I don't agree that "this show is designed as a sequel" gets around the problem of poor character development.
I think it is fairly obvious that there's no consensus that there is a problem.
Nevertheless, if you're going to dismiss existing information pertinent to characters as irrelevant for reasons, then disagree that those reasons are correct, then come back and argue that there isn't sufficient character development based solely on one item that very clearly and openly is not intended to stand alone, despite there clearly being sufficient information to draw reasonable conclusions in spite of that, then I don't think this is the show for you.
Argive wrote: Ohh yeah the The kingdom lost its prince, the king and queen are devastated at loosing THEIR CHILD, and Eternia lost friggin He-Man... but hold on Teelas' feelings got hurt.
Er... yes?
I mean, the story follows Teela's reaction, because she's the protagonist. If the story was following King Randor's exploits following the death of his son, they no doubt would have put his reaction and the aftermath of that center stage.
I honestly don't get where being upset that your best friend (and, incidentally, the guy she's been tasked with protecting all these years despite that clearly not actually having been necessary) has just died and you've just found out that despite being told you're so wonderfully trustworthy, nobody trusted you with his secret... which would have been kind of relevant to her job... somehow makes her 'self absorbed'. Her entire world has just come crashing down around her ears. She's entitled to be upset about that.
Argive wrote: Ohh yeah the The kingdom lost its prince, the king and queen are devastated at loosing THEIR CHILD, and Eternia lost friggin He-Man... but hold on Teelas' feelings got hurt.
Er... yes?
I mean, the story follows Teela's reaction, because she's the protagonist. If the story was following King Randor's exploits following the death of his son, they no doubt would have put his reaction and the aftermath of that center stage.
I honestly don't get where being upset that your best friend (and, incidentally, the guy she's been tasked with protecting all these years despite that clearly not actually having been necessary) has just died and you've just found out that despite being told you're so wonderfully trustworthy, nobody trusted you with his secret... which would have been kind of relevant to her job... somehow makes her 'self absorbed'. Her entire world has just come crashing down around her ears. She's entitled to be upset about that.
And here I thought it wasn't a Teela show, but masters of the universe show.. Silly me.
I mean if she blamed herself for failing at her job I could understand...
Argive wrote: Ohh yeah the The kingdom lost its prince, the king and queen are devastated at loosing THEIR CHILD, and Eternia lost friggin He-Man... but hold on Teelas' feelings got hurt. Her self importance and self rightousness is what we are getting from the story? How does that make her in any way likeable or relatable?? Who acts like that?
Most people, when dealing with grief and anger. They aren't weighing out suffering like its money being split from a pot to see who got the largest share of pain. They're reacting to their own.
If that isn't relatable, wait a couple decades.
So you think people get worse at reading situations and managing their baggage and emotions as they get older, and not better ? LOL Interesting take
No, he means that you might not have experienced significant grief before, and as you get older that likelihood gradually becomes a statistical certainty.
That you apparently didn't grasp this doesn't really do much to shore up your argument.
And here I thought it wasn't a Teela show, but masters of the universe show.. Silly me.
Notice how 'Star Wars' wasn't called 'The Luke Show'?
It's a Masters of the Universe show. At least for this first half of it, Teela has been the primary protagonist.
I mean if she blamed herself for failing at her job I could understand...
I'd say she did. That would absolutely be an element of the anger and hurt that she displays in the throne room, and an underlying cause of her not wanting to get involved again.
Argive wrote: I guess your signature quotes are kind of ironic...
What a disgusting take.
You should slow down a little and stop getting worked up
I'm not getting worked up I'm just not engaging with someone saying:
I'm sorry, but you haven't experienced true grief and your opinion is invalid. Says me.
I mean.... Its not really worth getting worked dup against if that level of garbage is being flunged at you. Your post is also now on the garbage pile. Sorry.
Azreal13 wrote: Nevertheless, if you're going to dismiss existing information pertinent to characters as irrelevant for reasons, then disagree that those reasons are correct, then come back and argue...
Hey, you are the one arguing that scenes of a character with a different personality from a show which had a completely different narrative structure and which most of the audience have probably never seen because it aired four decades ago... provides all the required foundation for the new series, particularly the parts where they go wildly against the 80s grain.
I guess we'll just have to agree that there isn't a consensus on it.
And here I thought it wasn't a Teela show, but masters of the universe show.. Silly me.
Notice how 'Star Wars' wasn't called 'The Luke Show'?
It's a Masters of the Universe show. At least for this first half of it, Teela has been the primary protagonist.
I mean if she blamed herself for failing at her job I could understand...
I'd say she did. That would absolutely be an element of the anger and hurt that she displays in the throne room, and an underlying cause of her not wanting to get involved again.
You can like what you like. But I just didn't see it.. I mean I just did not se any element of hero's journey or growth. Her biggest fear was that she was "too strong" ?
I mean I ahve no problem with teela existing or being hencher then addam (LOL). But the classical hero tale just isint there..
In my view:
Adam dies - Teela finds out He man is adam. (She'd kind of suspected this by this point SURELY? Which would demonstrate her insight) So she thinks - yaaaaaahh that makes sense.. Should have trusted me but I respect your choice seeing as you're DEAD.
Teela feels like a failure for A) Not being trust worthy enough. B) Failing at her job to protect the prince (but no He-Man).
She obviously cant stand to be at the palace or look at his parents or her dad and runs away int he dead of night.
Decides to leave/self exile and go on an epic hero journey to find a way to 'fix things' by killing evil and atone or find a way to either turn time back or revive adam...
Instead what we get? Going in a hissy fit "I hate all of you because my feelings are hurt, I'm awesome and you're not baaaawwwahahhhaa!!! FFFFUUUUUUUUU ALLL!!"
I mean that's just not an endearing character arc IMO....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azreal13 wrote: That's isn't what was said, but then we wouldn't be here if you were a little better at reading subtext.
Sure thing buddy.. you keep pretending that. "nuhhuhh thats not what I said you just cant read" is basically what you re saying now. Are you a child ?
Its a simple matter of fact, you've misrepresented what was said, got indignant about it and are now calling names. It's a perfect stawman/ad hom combo.
Why is everyone so butthurt about the size of Teela's muscles in this? She has the exact same size muscles as Evil-Lynn. They are practically the same base form with a clothing and hair swap.
It's freaking Eternia. Everyone is some flavor of barbarian, even if they are using guns!