There seems to be a lot of sympathy around for Chaos, and traitors who have fallen to Chaos.
I really can't understand it.
The idea that people who make pacts with daemons and who worship gods whose sworn purpose is to butcher, spread disease, mutate and derive pleasure from every form of perverted torture are some how the 'good guys' is honestly incomprehensible to me.
I understand that the Imperium of Man is an autocratic, brutal, callous and dogmatic thing, however the idea that this makes Chaos understandable or indeed 'good' is just ludicrous.
I get that people who play Chaos like Chaos, like the fluff, like the models and probably don't like the God-Emperor or the Imperium. But I still don't get how anyone can kid themselves into thinking that Chaos are somehow the 'good guys'...
I think no one (or at least only a few) say that they are the good guys. Still there are tons of reasons why people (including myself) root for the bad guys. A quick trip to google showed me this article, which I found quite interessting:
Waaaghbert wrote: I think no one (or at least only a few) say that they are the good guys. Still there are tons of reasons why people (including myself) root for the bad guys. A quick trip to google showed me this article, which I found quite interessting:
The key thing offered by Chaos is the social mobility, because at its heart it is a cutthroat meritocracy revolving around exaltation of the self no matter the cost to anyone else. If one is talented enough, one can achieve power and even immortality as a daemon prince. Of course that vast majority of Chaos followers are not talented enough or are just simply unfortunate enough to be turned to spawn due to the capricious whim of their patron god or because their bodies and minds cannot handle that extra mutation or gift.
The Imperium by contrast has very few avenues for social mobility. Stultifying tradition and rigid social classes constrain nearly everyone. The Inquisition and Rogue Trader dynasties for example are two of the few avenues for the quick witted and flexibly minded to rise.
The Emperor is a hypocrite, some of the more sympathetic chaos are more like renegades, chaos undivided. Certain factions in the imperium are quite evil, power corrupts those in charge. Dark angels should be declared traitorous.
Big Mac wrote: The Emperor is a hypocrite, some of the more sympathetic chaos are more like renegades, chaos undivided. Certain factions in the imperium are quite evil, power corrupts those in charge. Dark angels should be declared traitorous.
No disagreements about evil factions in the Imperium, corrupted powers and the treachery of the First Legion.
However, this doesn't exonerate Heretic Astartes. And there are renegades in the Imperium, including renegade Astartes Chapters, who haven't sworn fealty to Chaos.
40k is not about Good and Evil. It’s about Law vs. Chaos. At best factions can nudge up to neutral on the morality axis. There is no Good faction. Individuals, yes, factions no.
So given the choice of playing an evil faction, what flavor do you prefer?
That same oppressive imperium you identified is part of the issue here.
I agree that Chaos should not be seen as a 'good' force, but the oppression and suppression of the Imperium, particularly with regards to social standing, opportunities, and information, does a lot (causally) to create some of these worshippers in the first place.
The retreat into superstition meant that people are just not aware of what chaos is. So they end up worshipping and following something they don't fully understand because the reasoning is that making them aware of the reality would cause even more people to seek it, to see for themselves.
That and the religious-style superstition of the Imperial leaders themselves. But it is somewhat justified. Having access to information does not say anything about the capacity for the individual to comprehend that information. The internet is a great example of this. And of course, many of these people involved come from situations of horror and toil that we can barely comprehend, it's not that surprising that some of these would turn to something they think will give them the power and influence to change their situation.
But it is important to remember that, while there are individuals you can certainly sympathise with, as a whole Chaos is just another malign force in a galaxy full of them.
My very first faction, when I first walked into a GW store in 1999, was CSM because I liked the plague marine models . I built a chaos army, and when I won, chaos won. When I lost, chaos lost.They became my team, and all other factions, mostly loyalist marines, became the enemy.
So when I started reading 40k/30k fiction I wanted reasons to sympathise with chaos, I was already predisposed to side with them.
This only occurs in the lore proper, with renegade characters believing that serving chaos is to serve a rightous purpose, but we as omiscient players know they are completly insane and the playthings of chaos.
I think you're confusing people loving to pretend to be the evil character in the story, or who think that faking the warp twisted bad boy is tremendously badass, but that's wildly different from finding galaxy-wide murder and deamon-allying "good".
1) You don't start worshipping nurgle by suddenly growing 30 tentacles and getting maggots in your gut and pus oozing from your eyesockets.
You start small. Most people who convert to Chaos do so through small steps and at the very start its like getting free stuff.
It starts small and many times you might not even realise its Chaos (don't forget many in the Imperium are not educated on Chaos). Once its got its claws into you and warped your mind somewhat then the real madness begins but by then for the vast majority, its far too late to pull out.
2) The Imperium treats humans like machines. Almost quite literally you can have your body tossed aside, some of your brain scooped out and your head made into a servitor or other computing component for the great Imperium machine. Working classes in hive cities work insane work shifts in environments that have never heard of the concept of health and safety. Giving them only just enough time to eat, drink, reproduce and return to work again. There's almost no chance that you will EVER rise up from that state in life; you've no social mobility, no power, no influence, you are nothing to the Imperium.
Meanwhile the upper ranks are a hive of villainy and backstabbing. Ancient power houses that hold vast wealth who are constantly at war with each other for more wealth and influence. Perhaps your house fell on hard times; bad investments, ships lost in the warp; now you're desperate and willing to take shady risks to get advantage. It might start out a few bits of information that lead to greater profit for you; a few hints; then a bit more and a bit more; before you know it you're hiding feathers sprouting from your shoulders. But that's ok its just a minor issue you're super rich now and powerful and gaining more power.
This only occurs in the lore proper, with renegade characters believing that serving chaos is to serve a rightous purpose, but we as omiscient players know they are completly insane and the playthings of chaos.
I think you're confusing people loving to pretend to be the evil character in the story, or who think that faking the warp twisted bad boy is tremendously badass, but that's wildly different from finding galaxy-wide murder and deamon-allying "good".
1) You don't start worshipping nurgle by suddenly growing 30 tentacles and getting maggots in your gut and pus oozing from your eyesockets.
You start small. Most people who convert to Chaos do so through small steps and at the very start its like getting free stuff.
It starts small and many times you might not even realise its Chaos (don't forget many in the Imperium are not educated on Chaos). Once its got its claws into you and warped your mind somewhat then the real madness begins but by then for the vast majority, its far too late to pull out.
2) The Imperium treats humans like machines. Almost quite literally you can have your body tossed aside, some of your brain scooped out and your head made into a servitor or other computing component for the great Imperium machine. Working classes in hive cities work insane work shifts in environments that have never heard of the concept of health and safety. Giving them only just enough time to eat, drink, reproduce and return to work again. There's almost no chance that you will EVER rise up from that state in life; you've no social mobility, no power, no influence, you are nothing to the Imperium.
Meanwhile the upper ranks are a hive of villainy and backstabbing. Ancient power houses that hold vast wealth who are constantly at war with each other for more wealth and influence. Perhaps your house fell on hard times; bad investments, ships lost in the warp; now you're desperate and willing to take shady risks to get advantage. It might start out a few bits of information that lead to greater profit for you; a few hints; then a bit more and a bit more; before you know it you're hiding feathers sprouting from your shoulders. But that's ok its just a minor issue you're super rich now and powerful and gaining more power.
All pertinent and true, but this is not the issue I have. My issue is with players (outside of the lore/universe) arguing that servants of Chaos are 'good'.
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Snake Tortoise wrote: My very first faction, when I first walked into a GW store in 1999, was CSM because I liked the plague marine models . I built a chaos army, and when I won, chaos won. When I lost, chaos lost.They became my team, and all other factions, mostly loyalist marines, became the enemy.
So when I started reading 40k/30k fiction I wanted reasons to sympathise with chaos, I was already predisposed to side with them.
This makes a lot of sense, actually. The tribal 'team' factor may well go a long way to explaining this. Thank you for sharing your experience, it has certainly improved my understanding.
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Nevelon wrote: 40k is not about Good and Evil. It’s about Law vs. Chaos. At best factions can nudge up to neutral on the morality axis. There is no Good faction. Individuals, yes, factions no.
So given the choice of playing an evil faction, what flavor do you prefer?
I have heard this a lot, and there is certainly a fair amount of truth in it. Morally is subjective to a very great degree, but I think it is possible to compare factions in-universe. For example, the Tau are clearly more positive than say the all-consuming Tyranids or torture-loving Drukhari.
I guess I just find it odd that so many see Chaos more favourably than the Imperium (which I fully admit contains many flaws and evils without question).
Aren't Tyranids a form of immortality though? If you're absorbed by them your substance and memories become part of a muli-galactic super organism!
But yea I think Chaos are popular because bad guys are cool. It's trendy to be a rebel, and Chaos marines are the ultimate anarchists with spikes and electric guitars!
I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of selling their soul to Chaos in exchange for a tentacle arm...
Big Mac wrote: The Emperor is a hypocrite, some of the more sympathetic chaos are more like renegades, chaos undivided. Certain factions in the imperium are quite evil, power corrupts those in charge. Dark angels should be declared traitorous.
Indeed, the IoM lumps in "scary tentacle" chaos with 'you can take our lives but you'll never take our FREEDUMMM!' chaos. Earth 2019 might be considered a chaos world due to our tech and corruptible world (according to them).
Kroem wrote: But yea I think Chaos are popular because bad guys are cool. It's trendy to be a rebel, and Chaos marines are the ultimate anarchists with spikes and electric guitars!
I don't think anyone is seriously thinking of selling their soul to Chaos in exchange for a tentacle arm...
I think that's why not-quite-canon Malal keeps popping up so much in fan discussions. It's the god for people who want to be the rebels to the faction of rebels. It's rebellion squared! What's cooler and edgier than a villain who hunts other villains? I'm still surprised that GW seems to have no interest in recycling that concept.
In any case, the Imperium makes it easy to root for the bad guys. When you can't call the good guys "good" with a straight face, you don't feel that conflicted about siding with the bad guys. In a more clear-cut, black and white setting, you'd feel guilty if you wanted the villains to win but in 40k? The universe would end up worse, but not by that much, so why not have fun?
nareik wrote: Chaos has the rights to bear arms, scorpion tales and bloodletter heads. How can you stand up to tyranny without that?
Vote Chaos: Absolute rights and "equal"oppurtunity employment guaranteed, Also Sky 's the limit if you have the capability.
May or may not require your soul to be sold, horns to be grown, and or the selling of souls of others. Further Chaos is not responsible for any and all issues oyu have, you have henceforth signed this on your own accord.
The emperor already destroyed all hope that humanity could achieve progress and enlightenment - he essentially considered himself and his creations to be above humanity, and was fully just using humanity as a tool to achieve his own goals.
He just did it in a way that was shiny, clean and gold, so you're inclined to view him as a good guy.
Chaos is not just the negative, violent aspects of emotion. It is all emotion. Where the imperium represents repression of feeling in favor of hierarchy, tradition and faith, chaos represents unfettered feeling with all the freedom that provides.
The chaos faction I play, which is the Thousand Sons, are on more of a true quest for knowledge and understanding than any of the dogmatic tech-priests of the corpse emperor. They don't fear what they don't understand, they seek it out and work to comprehend it.
I think Chaos would be far more interesting and complex if it promised free will to its followers. (Whether or not it actually delivered on its promise.)
But it doesn't do that. It assimilates, just like the Imperium does. And it hardly seems to hide its assimilating nature. Whether you turn into a spawn or ascend to daemonhood, you become nothing but an extention of the Dark Gods' will.
I'm pretty new to Warhammer but from the lore I've seen, the Emperor is the WORST! You say that its ludicrous to think of chaos as the good guys, and I think its ludicrous when I hear people say sincerely, the emperor protects.
I in no way think Chaos are the good guys, I'm not super big on any of them either, I like Orks! But, that being said, I will root for them against the imperium because the emperor sucks!
The Imperium does overall have better leaders and better goals (there are quite a few Imperial worlds that are not hell holes). However, at least Chaos is honest about its hatred while the Imperium (at least official propaganda) cloaks it beneath a veil of righteousness. Also, is there any real difference between the Word Bearers sacrificing thousands of people per day to feed the Dark Gods and the Imperium sacrificing ten thousand people each day to feed the Emperor?
ArcaneHorror wrote: The Imperium does overall have better leaders and better goals (there are quite a few Imperial worlds that are not hell holes). However, at least Chaos is honest about its hatred while the Imperium (at least official propaganda) cloaks it beneath a veil of righteousness. Also, is there any real difference between the Word Bearers sacrificing thousands of people per day to feed the Dark Gods and the Imperium sacrificing ten thousand people each day to feed the Emperor?
Chaos feed everyone they capture to their gods; imperium sacrifice minor psykers in the pretense of keeping the Emperor alive on his golden throne so that his psychic lighthouse is lit for travel in the warp.
ArcaneHorror wrote: The Imperium does overall have better leaders and better goals (there are quite a few Imperial worlds that are not hell holes). However, at least Chaos is honest about its hatred while the Imperium (at least official propaganda) cloaks it beneath a veil of righteousness. Also, is there any real difference between the Word Bearers sacrificing thousands of people per day to feed the Dark Gods and the Imperium sacrificing ten thousand people each day to feed the Emperor?
Chaos feed everyone they capture to their gods; imperium sacrifice minor psykers in the pretense of keeping the Emperor alive on his golden throne so that his psychic lighthouse is lit for travel in the warp.
That doesn't appear to be true, on either count.
Chaos forces don't sacrifice everyone. That's actually self evident, since there are still people on chaos world wandering about. Additionally, we've seen 'chaos societies' that, while a little squickier in how they track and discipline people (tagging people with parasites instead of computer chips, using warp-critters as tracking hounds), are not particularly worse than Imperial worlds (and better than some).
That doesn't make chaos good or noble or better, but its best to discuss it in terms of what actually goes on, not propaganda.
On the other side of things, we factually know that there are (or were) alternatives to the Emperor chowing down on the souls (not just lives, but souls) of thousands each day. When you have alternatives to atrocities, not using them is a further crime and atrocity.
It was noted earlier, that 40k is not about good vs evil, but order vs disorder.
For the D&D enthusiasts out there, I would consider myself to be Chaotic Good. I dislike and distrust large institutions, prefer to handle my own affairs, and have a John MacLean approach to most things. Walk tall and carry a big stick. I sometimes encourage my eldest child to bend more rules and be less rigid in his thoughts and actions. Like his Mom, he deeply prefers orderly existence.
I also make frequent sacrifices (time, financial, stress) to help others without any expectation of reward. Just my helpful, caring nature. I have volunteered for many charitable organizations, but I tend to do so in a haphazard way, when and as the feeling takes me.
Soooo... what does that have to do with Chaos being the “good guys?” Some people consider Order (capital “O”) to be a moral imperative. I do not, as I consider Order to be nothing but arbitrary nonsense most of the time. In my mind, I believe Responsible Freedom (two capitals!) to be the true moral imperitive. “A person is free, that is willing to live with the consequences of their actions”. You can rob a bank, or try to. Nothing is stopping you. You’re free to do so, if you’re willing to live with the consequences of *probably* going to jail and / or being killed in the attempt.
Now, that’s going dark just for the sake of it. I find people with like-minded ideals tend to peruse noble causes. We don’t like to be fettered with restrictions on our actions, as it makes it more difficult to improve the world around us.
So, in Chaos, were I to attempt to pursue a noble cause, I wouldn’t have the endless bureaucracy of the Imperium fighting against my every breath. Yes, that’s how people fall to Chaos. They see the clearer path and don’t know about the traps along the way. They see a path allowing Responsible Freedom, even if that path is ultimately likely to lead to corruption.
greatbigtree wrote: It was noted earlier, that 40k is not about good vs evil, but order vs disorder.
For the D&D enthusiasts out there, I would consider myself to be Chaotic Good. I dislike and distrust large institutions, prefer to handle my own affairs, and have a John MacLean approach to most things. Walk tall and carry a big stick. I sometimes encourage my eldest child to bend more rules and be less rigid in his thoughts and actions. Like his Mom, he deeply prefers orderly existence.
I also make frequent sacrifices (time, financial, stress) to help others without any expectation of reward. Just my helpful, caring nature. I have volunteered for many charitable organizations, but I tend to do so in a haphazard way, when and as the feeling takes me.
Soooo... what does that have to do with Chaos being the “good guys?” Some people consider Order (capital “O”) to be a moral imperative. I do not, as I consider Order to be nothing but arbitrary nonsense most of the time. In my mind, I believe Responsible Freedom (two capitals!) to be the true moral imperitive. “A person is free, that is willing to live with the consequences of their actions”. You can rob a bank, or try to. Nothing is stopping you. You’re free to do so, if you’re willing to live with the consequences of *probably* going to jail and / or being killed in the attempt.
Now, that’s going dark just for the sake of it. I find people with like-minded ideals tend to peruse noble causes. We don’t like to be fettered with restrictions on our actions, as it makes it more difficult to improve the world around us.
So, in Chaos, were I to attempt to pursue a noble cause, I wouldn’t have the endless bureaucracy of the Imperium fighting against my every breath. Yes, that’s how people fall to Chaos. They see the clearer path and don’t know about the traps along the way. They see a path allowing Responsible Freedom, even if that path is ultimately likely to lead to corruption.
This is helpful stuff, and I understand what you're saying (although personally I disagree and believe order is important - I'm with your son and his mother!). As I mentioned before, though, it is possible to be a renegade (i.e. working outside of the confines of Imperial bureaucracy/rule) without falling to Chaos. And indeed ALL who fall to Chaos become corrupted.
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Haasbioroid wrote: I'm pretty new to Warhammer but from the lore I've seen, the Emperor is the WORST! You say that its ludicrous to think of chaos as the good guys, and I think its ludicrous when I hear people say sincerely, the emperor protects.
I in no way think Chaos are the good guys, I'm not super big on any of them either, I like Orks! But, that being said, I will root for them against the imperium because the emperor sucks!
The Orks are probably the most honest faction in the 40k universe! Although I have only recently returned to playing, I have been reading and following for years and years. I really don't think the Emperor is the worst, but I guess that'll always be down to personal opinion.
Nurgle is also the god of other stoic emotions, such as: empathy, kinship, happiness, struggle, love, tradition, inevitability, mercy and memory. While Tzeentch seeks to twist fate and change reality, Nurgle teaches to accept entropy and rot and persevere despite it, with solace and happiness. His followers will vigorously spread the joyous teachings of Papa Nurgle and if those living fleshbags won't listen, they'll be shown all the pleasant ways for them to experience the unending cycle of death and rebirth.
In the 1984-esque cold grimdarkness of outer space, where life sucks and everyone's a dick, Nurgle cares. And he loves you. He brings you family, love and the time to embrace that love fully and become one with it. He accepts you for who you are, as long as you stay that way. Also don't wash, don't shave, don't change your underwear. You're great the way you are. He knows that you have been abandoned by your past lovers, friends and family. He knows that you need the feeling of belonging, security and stability in your life. He will embrace you if you trust him to bring you an eternal, painless existence. Just ignore the pus and the smell coming from the forming folds inside and outside your body.
Honestly I think a factor is the mary-sue threads running through marines. It makes people want to see them fail, and even fosters resentment over time (model release rates obviously exacerbating this). 40k is very good at creating a desire to see Chaos win just because it will knock marines down a peg.
Well, why do people turn to murder? Why do people turn to drugs? Why do revolutions happen, and sometimes turn out to be worse? Why do people pay good Money to woo peddlers promising snake oil miracle cures?
Why does anyone consciously join any kind of cult (I mean Branch Davidson type stuff here. Let’s not get into religion beyond that).
Desperation. The manipulations of someone smarter who knows how to pull strings etc.
With Chaos Cults, it’s much the same. Those yearning for political change fall to Tzeentch. Those praying to be spared from disease fall to Nurgle. Those seeking escape from drudgery through narcotics, music, art etc fall to Slaanesh. Those that want to punish their oppressors fall to Khorne.
There’s also the strong argument that the vast majority of Cultists never advance far enough to even know what they’re involved in until it’s way, way too late, and the Astra Miltarum are curb stomping them.
To fall to Chaos is to be really quite human. Nobody goes to bed one night a normal, rational human being, then just wakes up a junkie, or a political extremist, or an anti-medicine type, or serial killer. All of those take time. Baby steps down the road to damnation.
And in 40k and AoS, there’s the actual influence of actual Gods and actual rituals to forcibly corrupt the innocent.
That’s why.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Consider the fallen Primarchs.
Angron, Magnus and Perturabo could all have been saved if The Emperor had given a damn. Horus and Fulgrim were forcibly turned.
Curze, Mortarion, Alpharius and Lorgar? Who knows.
But none just shrugged their shoulders and went ‘yay Chaos’.
Darian Aarush wrote: But I still don't get how anyone can kid themselves into thinking that Chaos are somehow the 'good guys'...
They don't see the evil up front. They become evil by degrees.
There are a number of half truths and lies you have to swallow before you become something like this.
Historical grievances- real or imagined, become exaggerated and motive attributed. (The Imperium hates you, that's why your life is hard)
An enemy is defined and dehumanised, stripped of rights (The Ecclesiarch and his priests are the enemy, they are the oppressors, violence against them is justified.)
The ideology positions itself in opposition to the established 'evil' (Chaos offers you freedom and opposes their corruption)
Evil acts become acts of justice (Flay the Ecclesiarch and force his congregation to watch!)
Definition of the enemy broadens as required (The congregation are complicit! All corpse worshippers must be shown the true path.)
Suddenly you are standing above a mutilated body holding a knife dripping with blood and can't understand why someone is calling you the bad guy.
Graphic real life example:
Chaos represents freedom in the far future in which there is only war.
Half of "Renegades and Heretics" is just Renegades. People that have abandoned the Imperium, whether they believe in the Ruinous Powers or not, to seek a better life without the suffocating boot of fascism upon their throats day in and day out.
There's basically no arguing that Heretic Astartes past the 32nd Millennium Mark are anything less than flying rodent gak murder hobos with varying flavors of abhorrent nastiness.
However, most cultists and Heretics are just trying to find a better way forward.
Traitor Legions even had some motivating factors back in the annals of the 31st before everything went tits up.
The Iron Warriors are a pretty good example. They were dealt a gak hand, made the best of it, had their nose ground in the dirt for it, and then when they had the gall to raise their head and shout "no more" they were branded as traitors, beaten within an inch of their lives and fled, shattered and broken, to fester and rot for millenia until nothing was left but an empty husk of a legion working feverishly on twisted revolting daemon-creations to wreak their just vengeance upon the Imperium. They definitely aren't good guys but you can see why they're a little bit upset at the world and at this point are just content to watch it all burn to ash.
I don't think I've ever met a Chaos player who legitimately argues that Chaos are the good guys. Usually they make these claims to piss off Loyalist Marine players (in a jovial light-hearted way, of course)
I haven't met Chaos players who actually think they're the good guys. Personally, as a Chaos fan, I find Chaos interesting as a mirror to the imperium. They show how aweful the Imperium actually is, when people rather sign pacts with daemons than live one more day in that hellhole called Imperium of Men.
What I find more discomforting are people who actually think the Imperium were somehow "good guys" and believe the in-universe propaganda of "that universe is so bad, fascism is the only way to save humanity". No, it's not. The fascism of the Imperium is the reason so many people become renegades. Fascism might be the consequence of a hopeless universe like the 40K galaxy is, but it's still the worst government the Imperium could have.
That's also what I like about the 40K background on the whole and I hope Guilliman doesn't actually get the power to turn the Imperium singlehandedly into some Star Trek utopia, because that would mean Chaos really comes down to being the one.dimensional cartoon-villains they're already depicted as in some SM-centric novels.
Chaos represents freedom in the far future in which there is only war.
No it doesn't. Chaos is just slavery to a different power. You don't have any freedom under Chaos' thumb. You do the Chaos Gods' bidding, or you will be disposed of in whatever way pleases them the most. Displease them? They'll send another champion after you to kill you. Or maybe they'll just turn you in to a Chaos Spawn at a whim. Or give you a mutation that turns you in to a gibbering horror. Or feed you to their daemons. There's no freedom in Chaos except for the Chaos Gods themselves. And even they are prisoners to their own natures.
The delusion of freedom, sure. For some of them, anyway.
For most people within the rule of a Chaos-controlled planet, there's no such illusion. You suffer at the whims of whatever tin-pot tyrant rules at any given moment. You could be gathered up to be sacrificed for the whims of whatever champion wanders around. Or they could just kill you because they haven't killed anyone in a while. Or they give you a plague that makes you suffer, rot, and die in misery and agony because they think the bacteria and viruses deserve to live more than you do. Or they use you as a playtoy, experimenting on just how much pain they can cause you without destroying your mind, over and over again... assuming they care whether or not you have your sanity still.
The dregs and slaves of Chaos are treated even lowlier than the dregs and slaves of the Imperium. And the Imperium treats their lowest classes pretty damn badly.
But then again, the Imperium actually cares about mankind's survival. Chaos does not. The ultimate goal of the Chaos Gods is to merge reality and the Warp, creating a galaxy completely inimical to human life. The entire human species is utterly expendable to them.
I collect a Slaanesh 'soup' for reasons that are deeply personal and would likely earn me a permaban if I were to share them fully. The R&H portion of my soup is heavily influenced by Soviet history and culture, also for personal reasons.
No part of those reasons is that Slaanesh is a "good guy" in the setting. I am not in any way advocating for Slaanesh in the real world, or trying to bring about the sort of world Slaanesh would approve of. I'm putting my personal spin on an existing IP.
It's not about being "sympathetic" to Chaos. Not for me at least.
Excommunicatus wrote: I collect a Slaanesh 'soup' for reasons that are deeply personal and would likely earn me a permaban if I were to share them fully. The R&H portion of my soup is heavily influenced by Soviet history and culture, also for personal reasons.
No part of those reasons is that Slaanesh is a "good guy" in the setting. I am not in any way advocating for Slaanesh in the real world, or trying to bring about the sort of world Slaanesh would approve of. I'm putting my personal spin on an existing IP.
It's not about being "sympathetic" to Chaos. Not for me at least.
Chaos has sympathy because we are the fuel to fire up the forges. We must blame ourselves for we are the cause, while Chaos itself is the effect. We must also look at Chaos being dualistic, in that, while people may tend to think they are wholly "evil", Nurgle can represent life/rebirth, Tzeentch can represent hope, Khorne can represent honor, Slaanesh can represent love.
the_scotsman wrote: The emperor already destroyed all hope that humanity could achieve progress and enlightenment - he essentially considered himself and his creations to be above humanity, and was fully just using humanity as a tool to achieve his own goals.
The Horus Heresy series seems to contradict this quite a bit. While Its true individuals were disposable to the Emperor, the Emperors way forward for humanity -real humanity, not the made-to-be-terminated space marines is pretty clear.
There is absolutely an illusion of normalcy on chaos worlds. For the Norsca and nations of the wastes in the Old World there are rules and a brutal rhythm to life in worships the gods. The people of Bleeding Kansas or the homesteaders and rangers who massacred their way across North America didn’t acknowledge that they were damning themselves. No, for them and many people today it’s simply that nature is red in tooth and claw, and if your neighbor who is also a settler dies of hunger or dysentery that simply means you can take his tools and if you slaughter a family that’s fine because they followed the wrong gods. If you yourself are killed, it’s because you didn’t try hard enough and didn’t have the favor of the Almighty.
Any chaos world is subject to what’s called pure ideology, where their perceptions of cause and effect, right and wrong are so entrenched that they can’t even conceive of it as being up for debate.
An army of possessed Fallen, an Alpha Legion warband with a history of intervening on the behalf of the Imperium, and a group of techpriests who dared to invent new stuff that is led by Cypher, Be'lakor, and a reborn Sigismund; the true heroes who will save the galaxy.
Excommunicatus wrote:I collect a Slaanesh 'soup' for reasons that are deeply personal and would likely earn me a permaban if I were to share them fully. The R&H portion of my soup is heavily influenced by Soviet history and culture, also for personal reasons.
No part of those reasons is that Slaanesh is a "good guy" in the setting. I am not in any way advocating for Slaanesh in the real world, or trying to bring about the sort of world Slaanesh would approve of. I'm putting my personal spin on an existing IP.
It's not about being "sympathetic" to Chaos. Not for me at least.
I'd actually like to hear it if you were comfortable putting it in PM.
I disagree. But I can fully understand the position of those who would think this way.
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Melissia wrote: The delusion of freedom, sure. For some of them, anyway.
For most people within the rule of a Chaos-controlled planet, there's no such illusion. You suffer at the whims of whatever tin-pot tyrant rules at any given moment. You could be gathered up to be sacrificed for the whims of whatever champion wanders around. Or they could just kill you because they haven't killed anyone in a while. Or they give you a plague that makes you suffer, rot, and die in misery and agony because they think the bacteria and viruses deserve to live more than you do. Or they use you as a playtoy, experimenting on just how much pain they can cause you without destroying your mind, over and over again... assuming they care whether or not you have your sanity still.
The dregs and slaves of Chaos are treated even lowlier than the dregs and slaves of the Imperium. And the Imperium treats their lowest classes pretty damn badly.
But then again, the Imperium actually cares about mankind's survival. Chaos does not. The ultimate goal of the Chaos Gods is to merge reality and the Warp, creating a galaxy completely inimical to human life. The entire human species is utterly expendable to them.
I can only speak for myself, but I don't sympathize with Chaos as a concept, or as the Warp gods are, but rather with the characters. They're flawed and in well written stories have sort of a Greek tragedy feel to them - being superhuman but also having pride and despair and all the stuff that makes them vulnerable.
I felt a lot more for Argel Tal than whoever the heck the pretty boy of the Ultramarines series is.
As other said though Chaos as a whole is just as bad as any other group - that's the point of 40k and it's foolish to lose sight of that. There's no winners, no good guys at all.
As other said though Chaos as a whole is just as bad as any other group - that's the point of 40k and it's foolish to lose sight of that. There's no winners, no good guys at all.
This can't ever be said enough times. There are no good guys. No Imperium Secundus. No boys in blue or gold. No Tau communism. No Eldar enlightenment. It's all grimdark, everyone dies. It's a fictional universe where everything sucks.
There's quite logically no reason that Chaos players can't just enjoy the universe that's been created and choose whatever fluff works for them. Whether it's the everyman workers revolt doomed to crushing by the Imperium or worse, or if they want to play mustache twirling Saturday morning cartoon villains. Or something else entirely. It's all fine and dandy in the 42nd millennium.
ScarletRose wrote: I can only speak for myself, but I don't sympathize with Chaos as a concept, or as the Warp gods are, but rather with the characters. They're flawed and in well written stories have sort of a Greek tragedy feel to them - being superhuman but also having pride and despair and all the stuff that makes them vulnerable.
I felt a lot more for Argel Tal than whoever the heck the pretty boy of the Ultramarines series is.
As other said though Chaos as a whole is just as bad as any other group - that's the point of 40k and it's foolish to lose sight of that. There's no winners, no good guys at all.
Here's the thing: what if Chaos is right?
That the material world is an illusion of time and space, the twisted environment of the Warp is the natural state of reality, and this abominable universe of the Imperium is torture for all things that lie within. The Dark Gods offense with the Materium is righteous, their servants are apostles of the truth of all creation.
Would CSMs and Daemons still be bad, or are they simply enlightened?
We know all other factions are bad. They have nothing to fall back to. But Chaos knows something lies beyond the material, they deny the lie of existence.
Of all the factions, they are the only one who might be able to honestly say they are the good guys.
You're asking how someone could look at the Imperium,
*which rounds up psykers onto the Black Ships, sends them off back to Terra, and sacrifices them to maintain a navigational beacon;
*which uses inconsistent religious zealots like the Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, and the various Space Marine chapters to maintain order;
*which tolerates any number of excesses and abuses by planetary leadership as long as the tithes and loyalty oaths are kept;
and side with the crazy rebel cultists.
It's just a mystery, I guess.
"And over here are my Lapsed Imperial Cultists..."
"The Imperium is a literal hellhole of supression, suffering, sacrifice and exploitation!"
Yes.
And it is because Chaos exists.
The Imperium as per 30k was mostly a good place to live in. Not an utopia, but way better than the abominable state it is in now.
You cant use the Imperium to make Chaos the "good guys" because Chaos made the Imperium what it is today.
Thairne wrote: "The Imperium is a literal hellhole of supression, suffering, sacrifice and exploitation!"
Yes.
And it is because Chaos exists.
The Imperium as per 30k was mostly a good place to live in. Not an utopia, but way better than the abominable state it is in now.
You cant use the Imperium to make Chaos the "good guys" because Chaos made the Imperium what it is today.
Correct.
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Thairne wrote: "The Imperium is a literal hellhole of supression, suffering, sacrifice and exploitation!"
Yes.
And it is because Chaos exists.
The Imperium as per 30k was mostly a good place to live in. Not an utopia, but way better than the abominable state it is in now.
You cant use the Imperium to make Chaos the "good guys" because Chaos made the Imperium what it is today.
You're asking how someone could look at the Imperium,
*which rounds up psykers onto the Black Ships, sends them off back to Terra, and sacrifices them to maintain a navigational beacon;
*which uses inconsistent religious zealots like the Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, and the various Space Marine chapters to maintain order;
*which tolerates any number of excesses and abuses by planetary leadership as long as the tithes and loyalty oaths are kept;
and side with the crazy rebel cultists.
It's just a mystery, I guess.
"And over here are my Lapsed Imperial Cultists..."
Thairne wrote: "The Imperium is a literal hellhole of supression, suffering, sacrifice and exploitation!"
Yes.
And it is because Chaos exists.
The Imperium as per 30k was mostly a good place to live in. Not an utopia, but way better than the abominable state it is in now.
You cant use the Imperium to make Chaos the "good guys" because Chaos made the Imperium what it is today.
You're asking how someone could look at the Imperium,
*which rounds up psykers onto the Black Ships, sends them off back to Terra, and sacrifices them to maintain a navigational beacon;
*which uses inconsistent religious zealots like the Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, and the various Space Marine chapters to maintain order;
*which tolerates any number of excesses and abuses by planetary leadership as long as the tithes and loyalty oaths are kept;
and side with the crazy rebel cultists.
It's just a mystery, I guess.
"And over here are my Lapsed Imperial Cultists..."
The great satan won't even let you fly on a plane if you bring potentially explosive devices. Such oppression! Join our terrorist group!
Chaos is, allegorically at least, emotion. The idea of the Warhammer 40k setting is that if you want to build a galaxy-spanning civilization you have to be able to account for the fact that the people running it are people and not automata. Desire, anger, ambition, fear of mortality, all these are things that might cause someone to make bad decisions and send the whole house of cards toppling down.
Most of the civilizations in Warhammer represent ways people have attempted to deal with the problem. The Tau haven't been forced to make a choice yet, they're too new/small as a civlization and haven't been forced to face down the kind of crises everyone else has to deal with. The Orks never had a choice, they're programmed and incapable of deviating from their design. The Tyranids represent just how alien a species would have to be to not have to face up to the problems the Warp represents. The Eldar buried their heads in the sand and tried to pretend that Chaos wasn't a problem, and their empire exploded as a result, so what's left are shattered remnants hiding in the far corners of the galaxy. The Necrons purged themselves of any vulnerability to Chaos, and while their civilization isn't wracked by the kind of strife brought on by this pesky "individuality" it's also not a particularly pleasant place to exist as an individual, you're a drone in a machine with no capacity to do anything other than what you're told or understand why you're doing what you're doing. The Imperium is trying to repress itself, it thinks it can clamp down on the threat of Chaos by using its tools in a controlled way and keeping a gun to the head of everyone telling them not to step out of line, and it kind of works but it also means they need to nuke their own planets occasionally. Chaos Cults are the people who have decided that they might as well embrace their whole nature, if civilization is essentially doomed by the basic nature of reality they might as well give up and have some fun while the galaxy burns around them.
Everything in the setting represents some kind of extreme response to the existence of Chaos. Chaos itself is not good or evil, it merely exists; its absence (as the Necrons demonstrate) isn't particularly desirable.
A reason someone might look at Chaos and say "hey, those look like the good guys" is that modern liberal humanist culture places a great deal of value on the individual and believes that the individual can be better/do more when not squashed/constrained by a broader society, and Chaos Cults are the only faction in Warhammer that has even the philosophical basis for recognizing and appreciating the value of individuals rather than trying to turn everyone into well-oiled cogs in a perfectly cooperative machine that shoots you in the head if you're a quarter-inch out of alignment with where you're supposed to be. Everyone in Warhammer is perfectly happy to commit mass murder if it's going to get them a bit ahead, but Chaos is the only faction (among the 'civilized' folks capable of speech, anyway) that isn't going to give you a sanctimonious speech about why it's for your own good before doing it.
Nobody in Warhammer is good. Nobody in Warhammer is evil. Everyone in Warhammer has been screwed over because the basic nature of reality is out to get you, and everyone is trying frantically to build some manner of organized society that can exist in spite of all the reasons the universe is out to get them.
(Postscript: But the writers are dead-set on needing a 'villain' so Chaos-aligned folks get black spiky armour and glowy red eyes and speeches about how everything is doomed and they need to blow everything up while they do battle with square-jawed white dudes in shiny armour who are loaded down with half-assed excuses as to how they're actually secretly not as into mass-murder as the wider Imperium, yeah.)
Nobody in Warhammer is good. Nobody in Warhammer is evil. Everyone in Warhammer has been screwed over because the basic nature of reality is out to get you, and everyone is trying frantically to build some manner of organized society that can exist in spite of all the reasons the universe is out to get them.
I disagree. I think Chaos is clearly evil, and that was my point in starting this thread. I don't believe at all that Chaos is trying to build an organised society to survive the deathtrap that is the 40k universe. I believe Chaos is a big part of the reason it's a deathtrap in the first place.
The chaos gods are no more evil than a hurricane or a wildfire. Yes they are destructive and inimical to life but that is merely their nature and they do what they do even though it's against their own self interest. If they were to ever succeed in eliminating all sentient life in the galaxy then they would cease to be because nothing would be left to fuel them with emotions.
The followers of the chaos gods? Misguided and capable of heinous acts yes but no more so than the inquisitor that commits exterminatous, the commissar that executes a frightened soldier, or a Dark Angel who would raze a city from orbit for merely the possibility that a member of the Fallen could have been there.
There is no black and white in 40k. That's part of the appeal.
Thairne wrote: "The Imperium is a literal hellhole of supression, suffering, sacrifice and exploitation!"
Yes.
And it is because Chaos exists.
The Imperium as per 30k was mostly a good place to live in. Not an utopia, but way better than the abominable state it is in now.
You cant use the Imperium to make Chaos the "good guys" because Chaos made the Imperium what it is today.
Both yes and no right?
If forced to choose between living in the Emperor's newly minted 30k. empire and the Imperium of 40k. I would definitely choose the Emperor's 30k. regime... but to say that it was chaos who corrupted and led it down the path it is on today is just a little reductive. Chaos, while obviously something anyone who want to make any claim to being "the good guys" need to oppose and combat, is more or less a force of nature in the 40k. universe. And even without the Chaos Gods, Big E made lots of errors. Just compare how he treated Angron compared to any of the Primarchs who stayed loyal, or look at the full roll out of extremism and totalitarian repression he smacked down on Lorgar and the Wordbearers (and the innocent civilians who got to constitute the deathly example just for show). Also, while it might be a less repressive military regime in 30k., with slightly more venues for upwards mobility than in 40k., it was still very much a warmongering, all out war-faring, xeno- and genocidal, imperialistic, very repressive and very violent regime. Stuff like that bleeds rebellion.
To compare that to 40k. and the subject of chaos being "good guys". While that is just ludicrous, I don't think there is anything weird in sympathizing with (fictional) people who chooses to rebel against a regime that (at least for many/most parts of the galaxy) makes any true historical tyrants look like kindergarteners. Now, 40k. being über grimdark, your choice of rebellious causes are rather limited, with the Imperium being utterly too strong to ever topple, and almost all other paths leading right into the arms of the chaos gods... In other words. Good, no, most definitely not, worthy of some sympathy... maybe?
(Postscript: But the writers are dead-set on needing a 'villain' so Chaos-aligned folks get black spiky armour and glowy red eyes and speeches about how everything is doomed and they need to blow everything up while they do battle with square-jawed white dudes in shiny armour who are loaded down with half-assed excuses as to how they're actually secretly not as into mass-murder as the wider Imperium, yeah.)
Well, Chaos is also a broad swathe of religious groups, and religious people like to preach. Not a lot of libertarian, social Darwinism in the Word Bearers legion. When the chaos sorcerer is crucifying you into his daemon engine I'm sure you'll be happy to know that Chaos 'recognizes and appreciates the value of individuals'.
In the manufactorum you were also a part of a machine in a sense, but you had two rights- the right to Live for the Emperor and the right to Die for the Emperor. You forfeited these by breaking imperial laws or not meeting quotas, but your superiors had a responsibility and duty of care to you. If they neglected you such that you couldn't work, they deprived you of the right to live for the Emperor and could be punished for their negligence. If you died (not in the service of the Emperor) they had a responsibility to punish those responsible, or they could be punished for their negligence.
Mass murder is exclusively the work of traitor and xenos agents. Murder is unlawful killing, and the word of the Emperor is law in all the galaxy. Servants of the golden throne obey Imperial law when they execute compliance on a lawless populace, bringing law and justice to the benighted regions of space.
I mean yes, when the Great Crusade was happening it is entirely true what you say.
I also never claimed that the "old" Imperium were the "good" guys, at least not as we understand the term today. In 40k terms, 30k Imperium was one, if not the best, places to live. The only thing better that basically did exist at any scale was the realm of Ultramar.
There were no psyker hunts. There was no Inqusition, there was no supreme suppression that we know of. It was a militaristic regime alright, but that aggression was outward facing. I mean a lot of planets were just outright nuked, but also a lot of planets were brought into compliance with minimal or no bloodshed even - depending on who found you. Pray it was Roboute or Vulkan and not Curze....
Eventually, with the end of the Great Crusade, the militarism would've subsided. That's what the entire "emps wanted to purge the astartes thing" comes about. A significant reduction in militarism since there would've been no threat on a scale anymore that required that level of military. Warp travel would've been replaced with webway travel and the Imperium would've essentially more and more turn into a galaxy wide Ultramar. And at that point, if you were human, you'd be in a freakin' good place, living a good life under the rule of (one of) the best statesmen to ever exist.
All of this did not happen because Horus got corrupted, which was the single figure able to engineer the Heresy by bringing enough Legions on his side. The seeds were there, but without Chaos, no full scale rebellion could have happened. Single primarchs rebelling would get snuffed out quickly, no threat to the great plan at all.
So I stand by that Chaos made the galaxy the shithole it is today and therefore cannot use "The imperium is gak" as a defense.
Thairne wrote: I mean yes, when the Great Crusade was happening it is entirely true what you say.
I also never claimed that the "old" Imperium were the "good" guys, at least not as we understand the term today. In 40k terms, 30k Imperium was one, if not the best, places to live. The only thing better that basically did exist at any scale was the realm of Ultramar.
There were no psyker hunts. There was no Inqusition, there was no supreme suppression that we know of. It was a militaristic regime alright, but that aggression was outward facing. I mean a lot of planets were just outright nuked, but also a lot of planets were brought into compliance with minimal or no bloodshed even - depending on who found you. Pray it was Roboute or Vulkan and not Curze....
Eventually, with the end of the Great Crusade, the militarism would've subsided. That's what the entire "emps wanted to purge the astartes thing" comes about. A significant reduction in militarism since there would've been no threat on a scale anymore that required that level of military. Warp travel would've been replaced with webway travel and the Imperium would've essentially more and more turn into a galaxy wide Ultramar. And at that point, if you were human, you'd be in a freakin' good place, living a good life under the rule of (one of) the best statesmen to ever exist.
All of this did not happen because Horus got corrupted, which was the single figure able to engineer the Heresy by bringing enough Legions on his side. The seeds were there, but without Chaos, no full scale rebellion could have happened. Single primarchs rebelling would get snuffed out quickly, no threat to the great plan at all.
So I stand by that Chaos made the galaxy the shithole it is today and therefore cannot use "The imperium is gak" as a defense.
Yes pray Gulliman found you instead of Curze. Just ask the citizens of Monarchia about the benevolence of the Ultramarines.
At least Curze didn't pretend his hands were clean.
Yes pray Gulliman found you instead of Curze. Just ask the citizens of Monarchia about the benevolence of the Ultramarines.
At least Curze didn't pretend his hands were clean.
Wasn't Monarchia a holy city in defiance of imperial law?
Didn't the Ultras evacuate civilians before blowing up what was in effect a massive unauthorised structure? Yeah I'll take my chances with the boring Primarch, thanks.
When people watch Disney movies, the young girls identify with the princess. But the young boys don´t identify with the prince, nor the "good" soldiers.
Therefore almost every one of them identifies with the evil wizard...
=Angel= wrote: ...Mass murder is exclusively the work of traitor and xenos agents. Murder is unlawful killing, and the word of the Emperor is law in all the galaxy. Servants of the golden throne obey Imperial law when they execute compliance on a lawless populace, bringing law and justice to the benighted regions of space.
"Imperial law" derives its authority solely from a supposed religious mandate. The argument that Exterminatus isn't mass-murder presumes that "Imperial law" is somehow more legitimate than the legal mandates of any xenos, or any might-makes-right arguments Chaos uses to justify anything. Why is "my god told me to blow up a planet" all right when your god is a shiny dude in golden armour but not all right when your god is a vaguely bird-shaped fragment of divine essence from beyond time and space?
Nobody in Warhammer is good. Nobody in Warhammer is evil. Everyone in Warhammer has been screwed over because the basic nature of reality is out to get you, and everyone is trying frantically to build some manner of organized society that can exist in spite of all the reasons the universe is out to get them.
I disagree. I think Chaos is clearly evil, and that was my point in starting this thread. I don't believe at all that Chaos is trying to build an organised society to survive the deathtrap that is the 40k universe. I believe Chaos is a big part of the reason it's a deathtrap in the first place.
Chaos isn't trying to build an organized society to survive the deathtrap of the 40k universe. "Chaos" the primordial essence of entropy is incapable of being "good" or "evil" any more than a hurricane or an earthquake, it's an extreme force that exists and isn't particularly friendly to a normal human way of life, but it also isn't capable of being anything else.
Chaos cults, on the other hand, have the capacity to make a decision and could be reasonably described as either "good" or "evil", but the problem of trying to label them as such is that they're primarily defined in opposition to the Imperium, who is perfectly happy to blow up their own citizens or lobotomize them and build computers out of them if it serves their own ends. An observer might question why sacrificing cultists in rituals to call up daemons or whatnot is really so much worse than nuking population centers because there was some fragment of "Chaos influence" somewhere on the same planet.
I say "nobody in 40k is good or evil" because everyone in the setting is using ends-justify-the-means thinking to justify committing atrocities in the name of stopping something supposedly worse. The Imperium is massacring civilians to stop Chaos. Chaos cults are massacring civilians to stop the Imperium. Why is one worse than the other?
40k is very much lodged in the "science fiction" end of things.
What differentiates itself from fantasy is that the real topic of the "story" is how the technology affects people or "warps" them to make an intentional pun.
Who are the main "gods" in 40k?
Man-made or to be more correct, brought a more complete form to them through man's echo in the warp.
Slanesh is the fluff exception BUT you could say it was just a matter of time and the Eldar pushed that to fruition.
From "Fandom":
"Though Khorne is the god of bloody slaughter, he is also the god of martial pride and honour, of those who set themselves against the most dangerous foes and earn victory against the odds."
Change, evolution, intrigue and sorcery is the realm of Tzeentch. "He is constantly building, even as his devices
unravel under their own complexity. At the same time, he is the god of knowledge and comprehension, and his devotees may be those who seek a deeper understanding of an often enigmatic universe."
"While Nurgle is the God of Death and Decay, he is also the God of Rebirth. Decay is simply one part of the cycle of life, without which no new life could grow. In the same way, Nurgle is also the God of Perseverance and Survival."
"Just as importantly, Slaanesh is also the god of perfection. The singer striving for the most beautiful song or the warrior who seeks the perfect fighting techniques, both could be devotees of Slaanesh."
Why the "sympathy" for this chaos and initial appearance of evil?
You could recognize the necessary Ying to your Yang.
These desires can provide the motivation to great works.
Plus your should join Chaos, they have excellent cookies.
Thairne wrote: I mean yes, when the Great Crusade was happening it is entirely true what you say.
I also never claimed that the "old" Imperium were the "good" guys, at least not as we understand the term today. In 40k terms, 30k Imperium was one, if not the best, places to live. The only thing better that basically did exist at any scale was the realm of Ultramar.
There were no psyker hunts. There was no Inqusition, there was no supreme suppression that we know of. It was a militaristic regime alright, but that aggression was outward facing. I mean a lot of planets were just outright nuked, but also a lot of planets were brought into compliance with minimal or no bloodshed even - depending on who found you. Pray it was Roboute or Vulkan and not Curze....
Eventually, with the end of the Great Crusade, the militarism would've subsided. That's what the entire "emps wanted to purge the astartes thing" comes about. A significant reduction in militarism since there would've been no threat on a scale anymore that required that level of military. Warp travel would've been replaced with webway travel and the Imperium would've essentially more and more turn into a galaxy wide Ultramar. And at that point, if you were human, you'd be in a freakin' good place, living a good life under the rule of (one of) the best statesmen to ever exist.
All of this did not happen because Horus got corrupted, which was the single figure able to engineer the Heresy by bringing enough Legions on his side. The seeds were there, but without Chaos, no full scale rebellion could have happened. Single primarchs rebelling would get snuffed out quickly, no threat to the great plan at all.
So I stand by that Chaos made the galaxy the shithole it is today and therefore cannot use "The imperium is gak" as a defense.
Just to clarify, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth or claim that you presented the Imperium or the 30k. Imperium as the good guys :9 You are also quite right that a horrible Imperium doesn't magically turn their opposition good, or even slightly better.
I will however, point out that I think you risk blaming the opportunity and not the cause in regards to the downfall of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor's choices directly led to one of his legions turning traitor, which led to the corruption of the rest. Without Chaos these events would undoubtedly have gone differently, but we only know (mostly) what did happen, we do not know what could have happened. We do, however know that the Emperor's plan wasn't flawless, that the extremist violence wasn't only outward facing (just ask the Thunder Warriors) and that his policies bred rebellion. Also, the Galaxy is a big place, with lots of galactic terrors to turn to/ally with/make use of, and there are lots of ways to topple an empire.
Yes, we have some idea of what the galaxy might have looked like if the Emperor's plan had kept going flawlessly, my point is that his policies - the repressive and totalitarian elements in particular, played a central, if not the central role in his own downfall. That is sort of the whole dramatical/tragic element to the story
Also, quite beside the point but, again, while I would much prefer 30k. to 40k., I feel we cannot look past that the Emperor was only ever a good for man (in the 30k. timespan). All xenos encountered got the torch. That ain't exactly a paragon of virtue in any 20th. century sense of the word.
The empire of Ultramar or the confederation of the Interex are probably the only places so far encountered in lore, where you would actually want to live, without huge stipulations...
=Angel= wrote: ...Mass murder is exclusively the work of traitor and xenos agents. Murder is unlawful killing, and the word of the Emperor is law in all the galaxy. Servants of the golden throne obey Imperial law when they execute compliance on a lawless populace, bringing law and justice to the benighted regions of space.
"Imperial law" derives its authority solely from a supposed religious mandate. The argument that Exterminatus isn't mass-murder presumes that "Imperial law" is somehow more legitimate than the legal mandates of any xenos, or any might-makes-right arguments Chaos uses to justify anything. Why is "my god told me to blow up a planet" all right when your god is a shiny dude in golden armour but not all right when your god is a vaguely bird-shaped fragment of divine essence from beyond time and space?
Right of conquest. That's entirely secular, and differs from Might makes Right (Chaos) in key ways. If the Imperium of Man contacted our world today, the Emperor and the Highlords would be recognised as the legitimate government of all their territories, for the same reason that the US isn't governed by native Americans.
What we would likely contest is the Imperium's right to rule us- and the necessity of paying tithes to the Imperium. That's easier solved than you'd think, through diplomacy, bribery, assassinations and strategically positioned capital ships.
As for the religious claim, the legitimacy of the Ecclesiarchy is an entirely separate issue to the right of conquest. Missionaries would find many of our religions very easy to adapt to the creed, substituting key figures and demonstrating the Emperor's beneficence. We would recognise the conceit of messaging, guardian or avenging angels in the Imperial creed.
Hissed squawking
What's that, bird-shaped fragment of psychic essence from beyond time and space? You have angels too? What are they like?
Daemonssss.
Well, I'm sure that a name isn't everything. The blue ones are called?
Horrorssss.
That's also a terrible name for an angel. What do they do?
Drive men insane with unspeakable truths and lies, then consume their soulssss
That's not... great.
The red onessss kill people.
Bad people?
Sometimessss.They spill blood and take skullssss. The rotten ones are called plaguebearerssss
Do they take plagues away?
No, the other thing. The pink ones are called Daemonettessss
Sounds progressive.
So progressssive.
The issue with Chaos is that it has no legitimacy. The Chaos marines rebelled against a secular authority with legitimate secular claim to the worlds it controlled. Chaos cults have done the same thing for 10,000 years since, and compound the issue by enforcing a violent theocracy on peaceful citizens. You personally might disagree with the state religion of the Imperium (heretic) but there's a surprising amount of leniency given in how the Emperor is worshipped, through saints and symbols, local figures and spirits. The devotion varies wildly from citizen to citizen, with some just paying lip service, some worshipping with heart and soul.
There was none of that in chaos occupied territory in the Sabbat worlds. You bow in terror before the idols of chaos or be killed.
The agents of the Emperor have the secular right and moral duty to destroy whole worlds that are tainted by warp pollution. Chaos makes the stakes that high, not the Emperor or his trillions of worshippers.
In regards to the OP, Chaos were never the good guys, but when handled well you could have sympathy for how they got there.
This quote from the Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned(1990) illustrate that
Realms of Chaos: Lost and the Damned wrote:
(...)A Chaos Power thus represents a particular and generally extreme aspect of the traits shown by the living. The traits which characterize the Chaos Powers are insanity, violence, ambition, greed and others of a kind which are often felt to typify the worst of human nature. But this is not wholly the case, and Chaos Powers also exist which typify fellowship, charity, law and other redeeming characteristics. Indeed, no Chaos power is wholly good or evil, and likewise neither are their shadow-selves. For example, Along with violence and bloodshed Khorne has inherited the warrior’s sense of honour and martial virtue. Nurgle may typify decay and disease, but he also embodies the human hope and energy that defies the inevitable.(...)
(...)A Champion’s motives can be many and varied: revenge for past injustices, aid for the poor, liberation for the oppressed, and so on. Any great need or want may drive a person into the arms of the Chaos Powers(...)
Chaos cults, on the other hand, have the capacity to make a decision and could be reasonably described as either "good" or "evil", but the problem of trying to label them as such is that they're primarily defined in opposition to the Imperium, who is perfectly happy to blow up their own citizens or lobotomize them and build computers out of them if it serves their own ends. An observer might question why sacrificing cultists in rituals to call up daemons or whatnot is really so much worse than nuking population centers because there was some fragment of "Chaos influence" somewhere on the same planet.
I say "nobody in 40k is good or evil" because everyone in the setting is using ends-justify-the-means thinking to justify committing atrocities in the name of stopping something supposedly worse. The Imperium is massacring civilians to stop Chaos. Chaos cults are massacring civilians to stop the Imperium. Why is one worse than the other?
Chaos is destructive and the Imperium is constructive.
Chaos is the worst of us distilled to psychic essence and run through hell. The Imperium is the best and worst of us in terrible material grandeur.
Chaos energies twist humans and matter into degenerate forms incapable of furthering the species. The Imperium enhances select humans as living weapons, incapable of furthering the species -for the purpose of defending it.
Chaos uses humans as raw materials for their rituals, consuming the very soul of the victim to bargain with devils. The Imperium uses humans as raw materials and labour to build massive space-cathedrals, marches armies into them and blasts off into the unknown, discovering lost branches of mankind and shielding them from the horrific aliens that would prey on them.
Where possible, Inquisitors do not murder entire planets. Where possible, Chaos will.
Its not about the ends justifying the means, its about the means being the only way to achieve the ends. For the Imperium, this end is mankind's continued survival, untainted by hell. For Chaos, this is the galaxy burning while the dark gods laugh it up.
Right of conquest. That's entirely secular, and differs from Might makes Right (Chaos) in key ways. If the Imperium of Man contacted our world today, the Emperor and the Highlords would be recognised as the legitimate government of all their territories, for the same reason that the US isn't governed by native Americans.
What we would likely contest is the Imperium's right to rule us- and the necessity of paying tithes to the Imperium. That's easier solved than you'd think, through diplomacy, bribery, assassinations and strategically positioned capital ships.
But right of conquest is obviously, indisputably simply the stagnant form of might makes right.. As, per the example given, one would never question the right to rule of the original inhabitants of an area so long as they held the bigger gun.
The agents of the Emperor have the secular right and moral duty to destroy whole worlds that are tainted by warp pollution. Chaos makes the stakes that high, not the Emperor or his trillions of worshippers.
Oh, but you reveal the conundrum of the Imperium, battling the forces of the warp by means of extremism and oppression. As whether the citizens are saved by bolter, chainsword, forced labour or even exterminatus, the whirlstorms of chaos swirls ever fiercer. Khorne, to put it poetically, cares not from whence the blood flows.
Right of conquest. That's entirely secular, and differs from Might makes Right (Chaos) in key ways. If the Imperium of Man contacted our world today, the Emperor and the Highlords would be recognised as the legitimate government of all their territories, for the same reason that the US isn't governed by native Americans.
Didn't they teach in the school you went to about what it took to perform the ethnic cleansing of the Americas, to get to the point where the native Americans were reduced to isolated territories? Or was that all framed for you as expansion into territories that nations of people weren't already occupying?
"Yep, we're just going to expand into these territories occupied by these nomadic, or semi-nomadic people, and then feel completely justified in wiping them out when the inevitable conflict occurs. But this is all right of conquest stuff, not 'might makes right'" -- History, written by the victors.
Whilst Chaos as a force obviously is destructive and corrupting, I can easily imagine many Chaos worshippers having good intentions, at least initially. The Imperium is utterly horrible and oppressive totalitarian state and opposing that is a noble goal. Chaos can offer hope to the hopeless and power to the powerless. Good people can rationalise accepting the offers of Chaos so that they can have a fighting chance against the tyranny of the Imperium, Sure, it won't end well even if they win, but they probably do not realise it.
1) Horus Heresy is written in a very sympathetic way for traitors;
2) Chaos is right;
3) Chaos speaks to survival of the fittest crowd;
4) Chaos stands for ultimate freedom;
5) There is inner demons in each of us;
Due to these reasons Chaos gets its popularity. I will expand on it a little bit later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Emperor had built his Imperium out of a lie. He based his rule of rampant militarism where disobedient were tortured, murdered and brainwashed. Just remember at how kindly our protagonists were treated by the Emperor and his angels for foiling assassination attempt against his life. Torture and then brainwipe. There is a lot of propaganda going on and people never ask obvious questions. Like for example: what the feth Night Lords were doing in Emperor's Imperium? It is like me raiding with Dark Eldar and saying, that no, I'm actually a good guy! People, Arch Warhammer is a great example, ignore everything contrary and create their version of W40k and just cherry pick whatever parts they wish. Lets take practical example in Descent of Angels and typical handling of a planet by Emperor and Imperial authorities.
First of all, they had landed and with shock and awe had assumed supreme command of a world. Bloodshed is not necessary as they pretend to uplift society by giving people medicine and healthcare to live longer while in reality, those things are only there to make better slaves. When Imperium touches a planet with their influence, they soon start massive campaign of ecological devastation. Within a generation a world ecosystem gets destroyed and planet gets sucked dry out of any resource of worth. Any major forest gets cleaned. Land leveled. Mountains sucked dry. World experiences extreme level of industrialization with smog, destruction of environment and bleak living conditions. Though, bleak is understatement. Imperial authorities are utterly negligent of the needs of its civilians. Their Hive World from the start fails to account for proper amount of people. They show humans like animals into those cramped buildings with no essential life support. No plumping, no electricity, no water. People are dying in roves and there is no place to bury them. There are literal death pits in the city where people just throw their dead. Imperial authorities are dismissive of any such claims and if someone resist, they are more than happy to destroy civilian infrastructure to "teach the scum a lesson of a cost resisting Imperial authority'.
All of this was happening under DIRECT Emperor's supervision. This is one of the exemplary worlds where Imperium wanted to make an impression and highest ruling authorities were present, because it was a homeworld of one of the Primarchs. That makes this world as one of most important planets in the Imperium and this is why Imperium did not shun away from investing mind boggling amounts of resources. This is why Emperor directly took interest to this world and his judgement of this world was- slavery. Barely better than being ruled by Orks and a lot better than being ruled by Dark Eldar. Worse than being ruled by Tau though. We should also remember that this was w30k when Imperium was at its zenith. Since then all of this got a lot worse. Now imagine such things happening on countless worlds across the galaxy. I think it was Horus who had said that tithes enacted upon conquered worlds were far too high and they were not given enough time to recover. Why you are even surprised that Horus could call about half of the Imperium to rebel against the Emperor? Rebellion was a moral prerogative of any virtuous and moral person. The only right thing was to fight against this golden tyrant.
Now consider all this in W40k. Chaos suddenly doesn't seem half as bad, does it? Chaos to my knowledge was never fairly portrayed. It is all about being Chaotic evil and nonsensical. Bad writers of which majority are making warhammer literature basically portray chaos as saturday morning cartoons. Yet, did you ever asked yourself at how Crusade era human civilizations often took Imperial authorities by surprise? For example, in a very same novel our Lion goes into his first mission with an Imperium. His legion arrives at a compliant planet monitored by White Scars. They hand over this duty to Dark Angles and goes their own merry way. Yet, despite years of monitoring and contact, Imperial authorities were utterly taken by surprise when planetary ruler said that they are religious (worshipping Chaos). Did any of you thought how Chaos world can appear as civilized as any other if Chaos is all about being ridiculously evil for no purpose? In truth, Chaos is what people wants it to be. Nurgle is an aspect of nature and life. Worshipping Nurgle can mean ecology and turning your industrial wasteland into primeval forests. It is just that we want it to be a rotting swamp by desiring immortality and hence Nurgle focuses on an aspect WE desire. Same was an with that world. Their society was even more orderly than that of the Imperium's despite that all of them had sold their souls to Chaos. They had made pact with demons for their protection and they had received EXACTLY WHAT THEY HAD BARGAINED FOR. Demons kept them safe during Dark Age of Technology and they upkept their end of bargain to the end, even manifesting their leaders so strong that they had man handled Lion like a child.
Crimson wrote: Whilst Chaos as a force obviously is destructive and corrupting, I can easily imagine many Chaos worshippers having good intentions, at least initially. The Imperium is utterly horrible and oppressive totalitarian state and opposing that is a noble goal. Chaos can offer hope to the hopeless and power to the powerless. Good people can rationalise accepting the offers of Chaos so that they can have a fighting chance against the tyranny of the Imperium, Sure, it won't end well even if they win, but they probably do not realise it.
Pretty fair point.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1) Horus Heresy is written in a very sympathetic way for traitors;
2) Chaos is right;
3) Chaos speaks to survival of the fittest crowd;
4) Chaos stands for ultimate freedom;
5) There is inner demons in each of us;
These aren't the self-evident truths they are being presented as. How is Chaos right? What's it right about? How does slavery to dark gods and their desires equate to ultimate freedom?
Just because we all have our daemons doesn't mean the right course of action is to give in to them.
I feel like a lot of these issues or misunderstandings come from people trying to read 40k in the way they're accustomed to reading science fiction and fantasy, which generally has an underlying moral principle of some kind, that intertwines with the core conflict.
But… the thing is, 40k isn't exactly sci-fi / fantasy. It certainly has all the outer trappings thereof - space travel, aliens, magic, daemons, etc. But the core of it, the mentality, the way it's constructed, is really more in line with horror and satire. Which is important for understanding the moral aspects of it.
Good guys and bad guys is irrelevant to 40k. That's not what it's about. It's an exploration, and satire, of the horrors of war, fascism, theocracy, autocracy, imperialism, genocide, stagnation, xenophobia, dogma, bureaucracy, addiction, mortality, idealizing violence, the uncaring vastness of the universe, the amoral brutality of nature, etc etc etc etc
If there's good guys in a game where you play endless war, then it's not really about the horror and futility of war anymore, is it? It would instead become just yet another piece of sci-fi media that treats war as glamorous and noble, and that acts like you can win the moral argument by shooting the other guy; it would become exactly the kind of thing 40k's creators set out to satirize and deconstruct..
Chaos aren't morally defensible, no, but they're not necessarily any worse than anyone else. Even the ruinous powers themselves aren't doing what they do out of malice, they're just doing it because it's their nature, and each of them embodies positive qualities amidst all the horrific stuff… Tzeentch has hope and change, Slaanesh has love and pleasure, Khorne has honour and justice and standing up for your principles, Nurgle has the natural cycles of death and rebirth. Etc. And heck, if Nurgle simply understood and respected the concept of consent, he'd probably be the most benevolent entity in the whole setting.
Chaos is nothing, but a reflection of a living world. Ask yourselves, how the feth warp managed to get so fethed up, especially in a new lore? The answer is that people living in that universe are absolutely terrible. You can't be a jerk in warhammer world without karma biting you back. Though, often this karma comes back as a literal demon generations later. If Imperial authorities would had created human civilization which was not based on wide spread human misery and dicking each other around, but instead of being nice to each other, warp and Gods will also now would be a lot nicer. Khorne might even call you up to congratulate you with your birthday instead of being this raging donkey-cave as he is now!
Even the ruinous powers themselves aren't doing what they do out of malice,
The thing is, from virtually every piece of fluffy and Black Library novel I've ever read, that's precisely what they're doing.
How so? I mean, if you literally can't do otherwise, you're not really acting out of malice, right? Like… I don't have any malice towards the animals and plants I eat. It's just what I have to do, by nature.
And everything I've read depicts Nurgle, at least, as genuinely acting out of a warped sense of compassion. He really does think of what he does as "blessings" and "gifts". It's not genuine compassion because, again, he can't actually do otherwise, it's just his nature, but it's certainly not malice.
Even the ruinous powers themselves aren't doing what they do out of malice,
The thing is, from virtually every piece of fluffy and Black Library novel I've ever read, that's precisely what they're doing.
How so? I mean, if you literally can't do otherwise, you're not really acting out of malice, right? Like… I don't have any malice towards the animals and plants I eat. It's just what I have to do, by nature.
And everything I've read depicts Nurgle, at least, as genuinely acting out of a warped sense of compassion. He really does think of what he does as "blessings" and "gifts". It's not genuine compassion because, again, he can't actually do otherwise, it's just his nature, but it's certainly not malice.
Imagine the giant whirlstorm of Khorne one day getting up and loudly proclaiming: "F this, I'm going vegan."
Even the ruinous powers themselves aren't doing what they do out of malice,
The thing is, from virtually every piece of fluffy and Black Library novel I've ever read, that's precisely what they're doing.
How so? I mean, if you literally can't do otherwise, you're not really acting out of malice, right? Like… I don't have any malice towards the animals and plants I eat. It's just what I have to do, by nature.
And everything I've read depicts Nurgle, at least, as genuinely acting out of a warped sense of compassion. He really does think of what he does as "blessings" and "gifts". It's not genuine compassion because, again, he can't actually do otherwise, it's just his nature, but it's certainly not malice.
Imagine the giant whirlstorm of Khorne one day getting up and loudly proclaiming: "F this, I'm going vegan."
"SOY FOR THE SOY GOD, SPROUTS FOR THE SPROUT THRONE"
Even the ruinous powers themselves aren't doing what they do out of malice,
The thing is, from virtually every piece of fluffy and Black Library novel I've ever read, that's precisely what they're doing.
How so? I mean, if you literally can't do otherwise, you're not really acting out of malice, right? Like… I don't have any malice towards the animals and plants I eat. It's just what I have to do, by nature.
And everything I've read depicts Nurgle, at least, as genuinely acting out of a warped sense of compassion. He really does think of what he does as "blessings" and "gifts". It's not genuine compassion because, again, he can't actually do otherwise, it's just his nature, but it's certainly not malice.
Trying out all his new poxes on Isha...yeah, really compassionate.
So the Chaos gods aren't sentient beings? They make no choices?
To Nurgle it is compassionate in a sense, as he is sharing all his gifts first with Isha. As was mentioned earlier, it is only Nurgle's lack of understanding/respecting consent that keeps him from being truly benevolent.
Thairne wrote: "The Imperium is a literal hellhole of supression, suffering, sacrifice and exploitation!"
Yes.
And it is because Chaos exists.
The Imperium as per 30k was mostly a good place to live in. Not an utopia, but way better than the abominable state it is in now.
You cant use the Imperium to make Chaos the "good guys" because Chaos made the Imperium what it is today.
Incompetence made the Imperium what it is.
Well, there is something of bi-directionality there though, right? Chaos "made" the Imperum what it is today, but the Imperium is what "made" Chaos what it is today.
Part of the issue, of course, is that we want to see causality. But Chaos vs. Order is really more a dailetic. While it is not a great example, the "simplest" way to put it is akin to how, while night follows day, day does not "cause" night, nor night "causing" day. They are simply portions of a relational "whole."
It's the same with Chaos, or so it seems it should be to me. The Imperium's "extreme Order "fueled" Chaos, even as Chaos "fueled" the move toward extreme Order. Really, the "extreme" nature of both is a sort of direct "answer" (a reaction formation) to the other. Which came first? That isn't a real question, because they both have always existed. Which slid toward the extreme first? Also, largely something irrelevant to ask, since both are/were/will be prone to extremes, if one hadn't, the other would have instead.
I'm also pretty dead set against the notion of the Chaos gods being "intrinsically" evil in themselves and in the same way, I am again the IoM being regarded as "intrinsically" evil.
On the notion of freedom, well, you are never "free" even just in the paradigm of Order vs. Chaos. While one might lament being a "slave" to a Chaos god, what is one in the IoM?
I think the idea that the Imperium would have been a happy, nice, lovely place if Chaos hadn't interfered with the great crusade is seriously missing the point of the whole story. Chaos was just the breeze that knocked over the house of cards, but it could have just as easily been anything else, even plain old human nature.
Just posted this in the Magnus thread:
Something I think a lot of people miss about the Horus Heresy in general is that the whole thing is a tragedy in the Classical sense. Like, not just that bad things happened, but that bad things inevitably happened, and it never really could have gone any other way. Emps tried to create a nice, happy, secular, united, democratic future for humanity, but the horrific means by which He tried to achieve it - war, genocide, autocracy, lies, forcefully imposed lies, creating superhuman children and then using them like nothing but tools, etc etc etc - fundamentally and irreparably undermined His goals from the very start. Or, put more simply: His goals were good, but His methods were awful, and the latter doomed the former. The way he treats Magnus is a perfect example of how a happy utopian future under Emp's rule wasn't an option anyway.
Even the ruinous powers themselves aren't doing what they do out of malice,
The thing is, from virtually every piece of fluffy and Black Library novel I've ever read, that's precisely what they're doing.
How so? I mean, if you literally can't do otherwise, you're not really acting out of malice, right? Like… I don't have any malice towards the animals and plants I eat. It's just what I have to do, by nature.
And everything I've read depicts Nurgle, at least, as genuinely acting out of a warped sense of compassion. He really does think of what he does as "blessings" and "gifts". It's not genuine compassion because, again, he can't actually do otherwise, it's just his nature, but it's certainly not malice.
Trying out all his new poxes on Isha...yeah, really compassionate.
So the Chaos gods aren't sentient beings? They make no choices?
But it is. He's giving her a constant stream of gifts purely out of love. Nurgle genuinely believes he's being nice.
Define sentient. They can percieve and feel things but they're also made purely of a very limited set of emotions and concepts. For example Tzeentch is so fixated on schemes, secrets, change and manipulation that he literally cannot achieve an overarching goal because then he'd need to stop changing.
I'm also pretty dead set against the notion of the Chaos gods being "intrinsically" evil in themselves and in the same way, I am again the IoM being regarded as "intrinsically" evil.
On the notion of freedom, well, you are never "free" even just in the paradigm of Order vs. Chaos. While one might lament being a "slave" to a Chaos god, what is one in the IoM?
You don't hear about slaves to darkness repenting and becoming servants of mankind, but you do hear about noble servants of the Imperium falling to chaos. That's because Chaos is a one way trip. When you have bargained your soul to an alien psychic intelligence, you are objectively less free than a man serving a brutal regime, willingly or unwillingly.
Gaunt, Creed and Macharius were men surely aware of the Imperium's bureaucratic and Machiavellian flaws but they fought willingly for mankind, as did the men under their respective commands.
The Imperium does awful things because if it didn't, mankind would have no way to survive. It uses servitors and cogitators because AI and computers inevitably rebel. If there was a fix for this, the Admech would use it.
Chaos does awful things because that's what it is. If Khorne was offered a peaceful annex or a violent blood drenched conquest, its would go for the one that involved more axes and skulls.
That's what is meant by evil. Its not like a tiger mauling a man because tigers have instincts- a tiger is more than the death of a man. Chaos is only that violent instinct. Any good that comes out of Chaos is accidental, like if they attack a xenos faction that was planning an attack on an Imperial population centre.
"SOY FOR THE SOY GOD, SPROUTS FOR THE SPROUT THRONE"
I want that on a t-shirt
Trying out all his new poxes on Isha...yeah, really compassionate.
So the Chaos gods aren't sentient beings? They make no choices?
Well, they are clearly shown to have some kind of sentience in the lore, but we are talking about gods... gods made of the gathered flow of emotions in the warp no less. I think projecting too much of human cognition unto them is: 1. something that makes them less interesting (even tho GW recently has taken to portraying them as more or less slightly stupid humans), 2. A general flaw in how modern people try to understand religion/ancient understandings of the world.
But let us take a step back. Do you really want the warp gods to be able to make choices as you and I do? Do you want Nurgle to be able to choose not to be Nurgle? I don't.
This might not be a perfect allegory in any way, but to try and give an example of how one might conceive the workings of a warp gods sentience... In pagan Scandinavia, did Thor cause thunder when he rode across the sky, or did he ride across the sky because you heard thunder? In 40k. I think the answer would be both, simultaneously, dialectically.
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nataliereed1984 wrote: I think the idea that the Imperium would have been a happy, nice, lovely place if Chaos hadn't interfered with the great crusade is seriously missing the point of the whole story. Chaos was just the breeze that knocked over the house of cards, but it could have just as easily been anything else, even plain old human nature.
Just posted this in the Magnus thread:
Something I think a lot of people miss about the Horus Heresy in general is that the whole thing is a tragedy in the Classical sense. Like, not just that bad things happened, but that bad things inevitably happened, and it never really could have gone any other way. Emps tried to create a nice, happy, secular, united, democratic future for humanity, but the horrific means by which He tried to achieve it - war, genocide, autocracy, lies, forcefully imposed lies, creating superhuman children and then using them like nothing but tools, etc etc etc - fundamentally and irreparably undermined His goals from the very start. Or, put more simply: His goals were good, but His methods were awful, and the latter doomed the former. The way he treats Magnus is a perfect example of how a happy utopian future under Emp's rule wasn't an option anyway.
=Angel= wrote: You don't hear about slaves to darkness repenting and becoming servants of mankind, but you do hear about noble servants of the Imperium falling to chaos. That's because Chaos is a one way trip. When you have bargained your soul to an alien psychic intelligence, you are objectively less free than a man serving a brutal regime, willingly or unwillingly.
Gaunt, Creed and Macharius were men surely aware of the Imperium's bureaucratic and Machiavellian flaws but they fought willingly for mankind, as did the men under their respective commands.
The Imperium does awful things because if it didn't, mankind would have no way to survive. It uses servitors and cogitators because AI and computers inevitably rebel. If there was a fix for this, the Admech would use it.
Chaos does awful things because that's what it is. If Khorne was offered a peaceful annex or a violent blood drenched conquest, its would go for the one that involved more axes and skulls.
That's what is meant by evil. Its not like a tiger mauling a man because tigers have instincts- a tiger is more than the death of a man. Chaos is only that violent instinct. Any good that comes out of Chaos is accidental, like if they attack a xenos faction that was planning an attack on an Imperial population centre.
Well, one, I think the lack of reciprocal "lapses" is a flaw in the way that Warhammer in general formulates the Order vs. Chaos paradigm. So, you are right, we "never" see that, because Order is presented as the presupposed "rightful" state, where Chaos is the "fallen" state. In my interpretation, there is no "rightful" or, if you like, "natural" state. There is no state of "grace" to fall from, so, of course, there can't be a "fallen" state at all.
To "return" to Hegel's presentation of the dialectic. Here we could see Order as the Concrete, Chaos as the Abstract and then we have the Absolute as their synthesis. (Note, Hegel never uses the triadic Thesis:Antithesis:Synthesis.) So, the "Concreteness" of Order mediates the "Abstractness" in the pursuit of the Absolute (that is, a "whole" of Being (read: Dasein, in the Heideggerian sense, of Being-in-the-world, that is, Being-for-that-which-the-question-of-Being-has-Meaning.).) The "reverse" is also true, the "Abstractness" of Chaos mediates the overwhelming "Concreteness" of Order.
I am largely against, though, the Utilitarianism of the Imperium as somehow a "good" thing. I am also against the portrayal of Chaos (either "servants" or the gods themselves) as necessarily violent. Unfortunately, because of the "frame" of the narratives we get presented, Chaos seems to often get the moustache-twirling, it's-fun-to-do-bad-things role, where the horror of an absolute Utilitarianism is glossed over, ironically, unless it's the Tau, where the notion of the "Greater Good" is (to me) "rightly" lampooned. But again, that is a function of the narrative, since "we" (the readers) are set up to excuse the action of Humans and condemn the actions of "Xenos."
I don't think the horror of the Imperium's methods of survival - like servitors, cogitators, servo-skulls, mass forced conscription, casual executions, a literal inquisition - is "glossed over", exactly. More that they amplify that horror by also showing us a vision of humanity who've become completely desensitized to it and casually accept it as a matter of course. Which is arguably the most realistic horror of the whole setting, how easy it is for people to accept brutal and nightmarish things if they're normalized, officially condoned, and they feel they depend on them for the status quo and the uninterrupted continuation of their day-to-day lives.
But I will bite my tongue on my deep and abiding problems with Hegel and dialectical philosophy in general.
Incidentally, when people say "the Imperium does awful things because otherwise they'd have no way to survive!", it's worth thinking about how that's pretty much exactly how the Aeldari (even many Drukhari) think about all the horrific things they do as well…
nataliereed1984 wrote: I don't think the horror of the Imperium's methods of survival - like servitors, cogitators, servo-skulls, mass forced conscription, casual executions, a literal inquisition - is "glossed over", exactly. More that they amplify that horror by also showing us a vision of humanity who've become completely desensitized to it and casually accept it as a matter of course. Which is arguably the most realistic horror of the whole setting, how easy it is for people to accept brutal and nightmarish things if they're normalized, officially condoned, and they feel they depend on them for the status quo and the uninterrupted continuation of their day-to-day lives.
But I will bite my tongue on my deep and abiding problems with Hegel and dialectical philosophy in general.
Well, I would agree there, most likely. But I think the key is that what is "horrible" is, in some sense, always a normative claim right? It's interesting, in a way, to me, to "flip the script" and, like =Angel= points out, we always see those "fallen" to Chaos, but no one "rise" to Order. Note, of course, the inherent normative claim implicit in those designations. Why is it though, that we see threads like this one, asking how there could be any redeeming qualities in Chaos, but none asking how anyone could see the redeeming qualities in the Imperium?
That is, the setting already provides that normative claim that the Order of the Imperium is the normative "good," maybe?
I mean, let me be clear, I'm not actually a Hegelian and I don't think dialectics is a "key to everything" (even Hegel himself basically said "don't systematize this" but of course people did). However, I do see some value in that approach with certain things. Note, of course, I am just an idiot with a keyboard, I am not a "trained" philosopher, so I don't have any vested interest in a given position. I find myself often moving through Hegel, Heidegger, Deleuze, De Beaurevoir, Žižek and many others. Often contradictory, I don't find a problem with that, in fact, I think their contradictory natures are in fact sort of complimentary. Maybe that actually is sort of dialectical though in reality, I don't know.
I have yet to see anyone claim Chaos is the "good guys." However, they are a potentially appealing option for some whose other alternative is to be slowly digested by an uncaring Imperium.
Well, one, I think the lack of reciprocal "lapses" is a flaw in the way that Warhammer in general formulates the Order vs. Chaos paradigm. So, you are right, we "never" see that, because Order is presented as the presupposed "rightful" state, where Chaos is the "fallen" state. In my interpretation, there is no "rightful" or, if you like, "natural" state. There is no state of "grace" to fall from, so, of course, there can't be a "fallen" state at all.
I don't think any reasonable person would accept that a woman giving birth to a ball of tentacles and teeth rather than a healthy child is not a fallen state. I think that in life, there are rightful states (the state of order and function), and medicine is based on returning our bodies to those states where injury, disease or failure has introduced dysfunction.
The normative, natural state of man and rhythms of life (order?) are disrupted by technology to greater and lesser extents in our modern world. How we adapt to that, and how we make technology adapt to us is the story of our times. 40k accelerates this with human machine interfaces sutured into the side of your head. The setting amplifies and alters what we might see as normal to a nightmare dystopia that is intentionally jarring. The Imperium is a function of the setting (which includes chaos) just as The Batman is a function of Gotham(which includes cartoonish levels of corruption and evil)
Chaos is a psychic and spiritual concept which introduces dysfunction that even future medicine cannot fix. A human body exposed to chaos will transfer from healthy and whole to mutated beyond recognition and there is nothing that can restore the order that was. In that sense, chaos is degenerative and irreversible harm to humans and its followers consciously introduce this harm to others, knowing the effects.
To "return" to Hegel's presentation of the dialectic. Here we could see Order as the Concrete, Chaos as the Abstract and then we have the Absolute as their synthesis. (Note, Hegel never uses the triadic Thesis:Antithesis:Synthesis.) So, the "Concreteness" of Order mediates the "Abstractness" in the pursuit of the Absolute (that is, a "whole" of Being (read: Dasein, in the Heideggerian sense, of Being-in-the-world, that is, Being-for-that-which-the-question-of-Being-has-Meaning.).) The "reverse" is also true, the "Abstractness" of Chaos mediates the overwhelming "Concreteness" of Order.
That's abstracting things beyond their strict meaning in the setting. 40k includes magic for its own sake. A 40k story does not require Chaos or even 'chaos' as an adversary- Necron V Imperium battles pit human and alien empires of order against one another. The chaotic destructive nature of Orks serve as a dark mirror of mankinds own capacity for destruction.
H wrote: I am largely against, though, the Utilitarianism of the Imperium as somehow a "good" thing. I am also against the portrayal of Chaos (either "servants" or the gods themselves) as necessarily violent. Unfortunately, because of the "frame" of the narratives we get presented, Chaos seems to often get the moustache-twirling, it's-fun-to-do-bad-things role, where the horror of an absolute Utilitarianism is glossed over, ironically, unless it's the Tau, where the notion of the "Greater Good" is (to me) "rightly" lampooned. But again, that is a function of the narrative, since "we" (the readers) are set up to excuse the action of Humans and condemn the actions of "Xenos."
That's not the case. 40k lays the flaws of humanity bare. It shows 'virtuous' xenos who act in self preservation and don't actively desire the genocide of all other races. It shows heroes who resist the darkness of the setting, antiheroes who form part of the darkness and base villains who further darken the setting.
Chaos exists in story to take all that humanity calls base, evil, classical vices and then make horned daemons who eat souls out of them. There is no nuance there.The material is clear that even for the gods who do not build furniture from the people killed in their name, violence is always the path forward. The HH had a ship of bohemian artists and hedonists murder each other to produce 'better art' and 'better orgies'. Violence invariably stems from greed/excess , ruthlessness , despair and (surprise) bloodlust .
The fact that these evils exist in human societies everywhere does not mean that they are part of the rightful state- they are often the product of an illness or dysfunction themselves.
=Angel= wrote: I don't think any reasonable person would accept that a woman giving birth to a ball of tentacles and teeth rather than a healthy child is not a fallen state. I think that in life, there are rightful states (the state of order and function), and medicine is based on returning our bodies to those states where injury, disease or failure has introduced dysfunction.
The normative, natural state of man and rhythms of life (order?) are disrupted by technology to greater and lesser extents in our modern world. How we adapt to that, and how we make technology adapt to us is the story of our times. 40k accelerates this with human machine interfaces sutured into the side of your head. The setting amplifies and alters what we might see as normal to a nightmare dystopia that is intentionally jarring. The Imperium is a function of the setting (which includes chaos) just as The Batman is a function of Gotham(which includes cartoonish levels of corruption and evil)
Chaos is a psychic and spiritual concept which introduces dysfunction that even future medicine cannot fix. A human body exposed to chaos will transfer from healthy and whole to mutated beyond recognition and there is nothing that can restore the order that was. In that sense, chaos is degenerative and irreversible harm to humans and its followers consciously introduce this harm to others, knowing the effects.
Well, on one hand, I agree that if you were to have a baby, one would expect it to be a normative human one. Of course, I am not "against" that. The issue, to me, is that while we can say, fairly easily, that there are "rightful" and "fallen" states, the question would always be, which is which? And, of course, this introduces something of a continuum paradox, where we would have to ask, just where does the state of "grace" move to the "fallen" state.
To me, Chaos is not "fallen" in-itself. It is not "dysfunction" in-itself. In the same way, to me, that Entropy is not "evil" in the real world. I think I would disagree that technology disrupts Order though, as well. In fact, technology is plausibly, to me, viewable as our attempt to enforce our notions of Order onto the world (and ourselves). Here, I would say that, to me, the normative, natural state of life, is to carve Order out of Chaos. That is, that we are in a sea of Chaos and we, to live, must craft the Order from it. In fact, without Chaos, in a strict sense, there would be no energy, in the sense of no entropy and all things ordered means nothing could or would be generative.
In a way, one could even see how the Imperium is, possibly, in a way, literally crafted from Chaos. In fact, this idea could be used to explain why the Imperium spurned a rise in the expression of Chaos. The Emperor siphons "power" from Chaos, forges Order, and in reactive form, Chaos siphons power back, from the derivatives of that Order.
The "pastiche" of 40K Chaos is, for narrative purposes, framed as "the baddies" and a fount of degeneration and harm. To me, that is a massive disservice to the whole notion. This is why I am not, really at any time, discussing 40K Chaos as a matter of facts. Rather, I am discussing my notion of 40K Chaos as a matter of my personal interpretation of what is could, or should be, to me.
=Angel= wrote: That's not the case. 40k lays the flaws of humanity bare. It shows 'virtuous' xenos who act in self preservation and don't actively desire the genocide of all other races. It shows heroes who resist the darkness of the setting, antiheroes who form part of the darkness and base villains who further darken the setting.
Chaos exists in story to take all that humanity calls base, evil, classical vices and then make horned daemons who eat souls out of them. There is no nuance there.The material is clear that even for the gods who do not build furniture from the people killed in their name, violence is always the path forward. The HH had a ship of bohemian artists and hedonists murder each other to produce 'better art' and 'better orgies'. Violence invariably stems from greed/excess , ruthlessness , despair and (surprise) bloodlust .
The fact that these evils exist in human societies everywhere does not mean that they are part of the rightful state- they are often the product of an illness or dysfunction themselves.
Well, again, I am not terribly interested in a clear manichaeism. If that's what canonical 40K lore is, then that is a clear indication of why I do not prefer it. I am also not interested in "fantastic" moral clarity. Your injection against nuance is exactly what makes me heavily disinterested in a notion of "accepting" canonical lore. I don't just want nuance, it's a need. Moral clarity utterly boring to me, pretty much always.
If you are in to it, that's good. Go for it. Again, I am not making a case that my interpretation is the "matter of fact" "correct" one. In fact, just the opposite. My view is a "matter of interpretation" subjective preference. I am not making any sort of case as to what 40 is. I only present what 40K would, could or should be, to me.
The question at hand was, essentially, how could one have sympathy for Chaos? My answer is/was, that I don't "buy" 40K as manichean, as a place of moral clarity, or a place without nuance. If that doesn't fit the lore, then yes, I reject the canonical lore.
Chaos exists in story to take all that humanity calls base, evil, classical vices and then make horned daemons who eat souls out of them. There is no nuance there.The material is clear that even for the gods who do not build furniture from the people killed in their name, violence is always the path forward. The HH had a ship of bohemian artists and hedonists murder each other to produce 'better art' and 'better orgies'. Violence invariably stems from greed/excess , ruthlessness , despair and (surprise) bloodlust .
The fact that these evils exist in human societies everywhere does not mean that they are part of the rightful state- they are often the product of an illness or dysfunction themselves.
You are right in regards to chaos representing classical vices, but I think you are missing the mark, at least to some degree.
Yes, these are deamons made of classical vices. But as with classical vices, there is nuance, as the danger comes more from the extremity of an act than from the act itself. To say they are wholly evil and dysfunctional is too reductive. What makes the chaos gods interesting (and frightening), and what makes the setting so captivating, is that they do hold nuance. Khorne is the blood god, but by being the blood god he is also the god of the base self preserving aggression needed to be an evolved (in the darwinian sense) species. He is also the god of the honor bond aggression needed to stand in defense of those for whom you have a duty of care. Those are not classical evils, yet they feed him just the same.
What makes chaos "evil" in a modern/christian, binary sense, is their need for extremity. To beget themselves with more of what feeds them. Whether or not this is a conscious act of deities with human like cognition or just warpstorms feeding of emotions while simultaneously leading to more of the same emotion. In this regard the Imperium of man stands in a reciprocal relation to the gods of chaos. You might say that this reciprocal relation makes the Imperium justified, and thus good in comparison to the evil of chaos, but I think that it missing the mark much more. Without Chaos, the Imperium might not (with emphasis on might) be as oppressive and violent, but without the Imperium, Chaos wouldn't be as strong. I find it hard to divide that up into rightful order versus chaotic evil. Especially when we remember that in this chicken and egg situation, man got here first.
In that regard, the most frightening thing I can imagine in this setting, would be a fifth big, genuine chaos god of order. Managed order and not the stagnant order of Nurgle. That would be truly, utterly terrifying. Not because order is inherently evil, but because the extremity of managed order would be utterly (grim)dark. Right now, as the setting stands, that is pretty much the role the Imperium occupies, with some wiggle room for doubters and characters you can actually feel a sympathetic relation towards.
Yes, these are deamons made of classical vices. But as with classical vices, there is nuance, as the danger comes more from the extremity of an act than from the act itself. To say they are wholly evil and dysfunctional is too reductive. What makes the chaos gods interesting (and frightening), and what makes the setting so captivating, is that they do hold nuance. Khorne is the blood god, but by being the blood god he is also the god of the base self preserving aggression needed to be an evolved (in the darwinian sense) species. He is also the god of the honor bond aggression needed to stand in defense of those for whom you have a duty of care. Those are not classical evils, yet they feed him just the same.
Even the simple idea of "fighting for your principles" is essentially Khornate in nature.
The fact that "taking otherwise decent things too far" is what drives the 'evil' of Chaos is also what makes Slaanesh so dangerous and resented by the other powers, because Slaanesh has excess itself within their purview.
On Chaos world, mother giving birth to a mutant or a boy/girl becoming a mutant is seen as a great honor and a blessing from their Gods. All of you forget that if your family was blessed with a mutant, he is likely to be made for great things. Such as slaughtering men by dozens, chasing down cars, punching through walls, all of such good things. And in the galaxy where half of the beings want to enslave you and other half to eat you, you would be truly insane to see this anything less than a great boon and blessing.
On tabletop, such mutants man handles space marines and space marines in primaris power armor. If that is not a great blessing from your Gods, I do not know what is.
You are right in regards to chaos representing classical vices, but I think you are missing the mark, at least to some degree.
Yes, these are deamons made of classical vices. But as with classical vices, there is nuance, as the danger comes more from the extremity of an act than from the act itself. To say they are wholly evil and dysfunctional is too reductive. What makes the chaos gods interesting (and frightening), and what makes the setting so captivating, is that they do hold nuance. Khorne is the blood god, but by being the blood god he is also the god of the base self preserving aggression needed to be an evolved (in the darwinian sense) species. He is also the god of the honor bond aggression needed to stand in defense of those for whom you have a duty of care. Those are not classical evils, yet they feed him just the same. .
I mean, that idea exists? That by standing between a berzerker and a hive full of civilians, shooting the berzerker in the face until he is dead, you are somehow empowering Khorne? I just don't think its borne out in any of the material.
Even if all human aggression feeds Khorne- and there will always be a background radiation of human aggression- Khorne is empowered by massive senseless wars and horrible acts of ultraviolence. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows is a limited statement, intended to convey that there must be conflict- not that he has zero stake in who wins. In the example above, the guardsman who fires his plasmagun from a trenchline before the hive has contributed 1(one) berzerker to the skull throne's coffers, whereas the berzerker would have gladly murdered all the inhabitants of a city for Khorne, if he were unopposed.
Just as Slaanesh wasn't born from normal eldar/human/eldar-human desire and obsession but from massive racewide automated space hedonism, the chaos gods are not fuelled by ordinary, baseline self preservation, thinking/improvement, dismantling or desire/pleasure.The gods of chaos have 'corresponding virtues' to their vices only because they embody corruption of those virtues- a courageous and honourable warrior transforming into a wrath filled berzerker as he embraces violence is an easy way to portray this corruption. Each god of chaos occupies a spectrum opposite to a virtue- and to move further to craven wrath is to move away from self preservation and honour. There are no 'honourable, knightly' champions of Khorne for the same reason there are no objective, reasonable drug addicts. Khorne is not the god of self defence.
The puzzle of Chaos is how humanity can fight its dark mirror without becoming it.
The more you fight, the more violent and base you can become and the closer to Khorne you will stray. War strips away at your moral fabric and sense of right and wrong until you are a degenerate hound, baying for blood.
The more you are forced to use guile, deceit, the loftier your ambition and the more you are willing to sacrifice, the more you leave yourself vulnerable to the grand architect.
The more you allow your passions to guide your reason and your obessions become you, you allow the dark prince into your heart.
The more you give in to despair and fear, the more hold the Lord of Decay has over you.
=Angel= wrote: The puzzle of Chaos is how humanity can fight its dark mirror without becoming it. The more you fight, the more violent and base you can become and the closer to Khorne you will stray. War strips away at your moral fabric and sense of right and wrong until you are a degenerate hound, baying for blood. The more you are forced to use guile, deceit, the loftier your ambition and the more you are willing to sacrifice, the more you leave yourself vulnerable to the grand architect. The more you allow your passions to guide your reason and your obessions become you, you allow the dark prince into your heart. The more you give in to despair and fear, the more hold the Lord of Decay has over you.
To me (again, not canonical Warhammer), this is exactly the "cost" of Pragmatism or Utilitarianism. Again, to me (not 40k canonical lore) Chaos is not a thing to be "defeated" but rather, a phenomenological reality of existence (of Being, more specifically of Dasein) that must be grappled with, harnessed, not extinguished. It is, in a manner of speaking, like gravity. You can best it for a time, for long periods of time, but it is never "defeated" and is always latently "ready-at-hand" at all times.
The issue (again, to me, not 40k canon lore) is that, as you point out, the notion of Order "defeating" Chaos creates in it the pragmatic "fueling" of Chaos. The pragmatic calculus of "war," of escalating violence, of excess, despair and fear motivating and fueling an impetus of "total war" in search of "total victory" sow in it the very seeds that portent the futility and achievableness of that very "total victory." The utilitarian notion that "best" for the "most" also fosters in it the notion that it can "conquer" Chaos and deliver a notional "victory" to the majority only sows the seeds in the "oppressed," "disenfranchised" or "repressed" minority the same failure to deliver the promised "total victory." In this utilitarian paradigm though, the cost is ever escalating, since you need to devote more and more to hold the enfranchised (Order) portion apart the disenfranchised (Chaos) portion.
The path (to me, not 40k lore) to walk is more akin to that of "Eastern philosophy" illustrated partly by the notion of Yin and Yang. It is not for one to "defeat the other" they are sort of dialectical, where each is just the necessary opposition to the totalizing of the other. And each contains within it the "seeds" of the other. The same is "true" for Order and Chaos in 40K to a certain extent. For example, Chaos is not "full Chaos" since it would then be totally incomprehensible. Without some Order, Chaos would be something like Meillasoux's notion of "hyper-Chaos" where they is only contingency, no necessity of any kind. If that were the case, you'd say, shoot a gun and sometimes the bullet would come out and travel in it's parabolic path. Or sometimes nothing would happen. Or, maybe the gun stays put, you come out the barrel and the bullet stays put. Or, the bullet turns into a star, you turn into a rabbit, and the gun ends up not existing. No, we don't have that at all. Even (from what little I've seen) even the Warp itself is at least partly "Ordered" for the most part. And the Chaos gods are highly ordered, otherwise sometimes Slaanesh would be the Lord of Pestilence and sometimes Khorne would be.
To me (again, only me) this is the "key." Order too, contains within it, notional Chaos. This is not a flaw to be rooted out. And that rooting is the source of the "problem." Seen as something of a "flaw" to be bested via pragmatic or utilitarian means could never win. Imagine hating night so much that you elaborately fashion a device to hold the Earth still and tidally lock it. One, the effort would be huge, taking tons of energy but also even "absolute victory" would only lock one side of the Earth in perpetual night and the other in the day. Did you "defeat" night? No, it's still there, just "pushed away" to a place you think it does not need to be reckoned with.
That is (again, to me, personally) the dialectical "nature" of Chaos. The notion of "victory" is a joke, as are the schematized "methods" of that so called "win." To me, the "true path" is one of notional balance, of a dialectical process of mediation and synthesis. That is, of process, which is not the effecualizing, pragmatic or utilitarian one, but one more deontological, where you realize that the shortest path might be the quickest or easiest one, but not the best suited one. Where you realize that the ideal, utopian notion of total victory is not achievable or desirable, and you can live in a place of relative (not perfect) harmony, a constantly mediated process of rises, falls, ever onwards toward coexistence.
But, as I keep saying, that is how it seems to me (not 40k canon lore).
There's also a very, very literal, unsubtle sense in which the Imperium can never defeat Chaos, and the effort to do so is destroying them:
The Imperium inherently relies upon warp travel and astropaths in order to maintain an Imperium.
The only way Chaos could ever be brought back down to manageable levels is to give up on the idea of a galaxy-wide Imperium, and the absolute dominance of humanity. Shut down the warp travel, shut down the astronomicon, turn off the golden throne, ditch the psykers.
Fascism and Imperialism and Total War breed their own bogeymen, and are doomed by the contradictions and impossibilities of their own ideologies.
That's one of the core ideas around which the whole setting has been designed.
For all of its thrashing around and its massive war machine and the unimaginable sacrifices constantly fed into the meat grinder, all the Imperium can do is kick the can a little further down the road, so they can linger on in stagnation and misery for another century.
That's not a million miles from the philosophy Lorgar espouses - he and Argel Tal try to explain it quite a bit in betrayer and the first heretic, and it comes up in the (40k) word bearer trilogy.
Basically it boils down as follows.
1) The gods are real, and are gods by any definition you care to apply. Denying them won't make them go away.
2) Respecting them, fearing them, and understanding the impact they have on the universe does not mandate 'worshipping' them or choosing tentacled mutations over the human race. It's much more like the Greek pantheon, who were something to fear and placate, rather than the more monotheistic view of worship associated with the Abrahamic religions.
3) Submitting to chaos unthinkingly is just as destructive as ignoring it. Chaos spawn are a case in point.
4) Mastering chaos indefinitely is impossible but then living for half a millenia without the touch of the warp is nigh impossible too, and in both cases the individuals involved are remarkable ones.
5) Lorgar advocated a sort of symbiosis - albeit a tense and potentially destructive one. The Dark Mechanicum is a case in point as to what's possible for science combined with damonology.
6) No one is suggesting a chaotic society is nice. It's generally one driven unapologetically by the rule of the strong, where human life is sacrificed on an industrial scale, and basically zero value is placed on dignity or sanity. BUT, for all that, it IS a viable society, albeit a horrible one. Many chaos worlds have, in their own ways, societies as structured as imperial hive worlds.
7) There are chaotic cultures as old as the imperium - indeed, given the time distortions in the Eye, the Screaming Vortex and elsewhere, some are older. Which, ultimately, gives the lie to the emperor's claim that his vision represents the only viable way for humanity.
People hate on the IoM for many reasons. They cant beat Imperial soup at their flgs, Primaris marines are going to replace their old marines, etc. I believe the most powerful and venomous hate comes from the familiarity with oppressive governments versus the familiarity with Evil Demon Gods.
The style and culture of the IoM is a purposeful copy of the "coolest" parts of Hitlers 3rd Reich and Stalin's Soviet Union. It also has it's most terrible aspects too. "Nazis riding dinosaurs!" I've honestly seen DKOK modeled on Cold Ones. People see the symbols of those evil empires and Freak the Frack out. Now, demons? Haha Haha. Those aren't real. Soviets and Nazis? Very real.
So whether the IoM is the champion of humanity or not, people are incapable of looking past the IoM's iconography. Flaming demon skulls? "Awesome! I want that on my backpack!" I blame marketing.
Red Marine wrote: The style and culture of the IoM is a purposeful copy of the "coolest" parts of Hitlers 3rd Reich and Stalin's Soviet Union. It also has it's most terrible aspects too. "Nazis riding dinosaurs!" I've honestly seen DKOK modeled on Cold Ones. People see the symbols of those evil empires and Freak the Frack out. Now, demons? Haha Haha. Those aren't real. Soviets and Nazis? Very real.
Was just thinking, regarding the idea of chaos always being a one way trip…
Isn't Luther a bit of an exception?
He didn't exactly redeem himself and purge himself of corruption in a Darth Vader kind of way, but he definitely halted his decline, denied the Chaos Gods, and felt genuine remorse, right?
I think that the severity of difficulty is such that in the fluff, you have a *NAME* if you overcome the seduction of Chaos.
Much like how Mephiston is *the* Blood Angel to overcome the Black Rage. If we estimate 10 BA per year succumb to the BR, then Mephiston would be the 1 / 100 000 that breaks the rule. He has the mental fortitude of a Marine Librarian. And he didn’t have literal Gods and Daemons whispering sweet nothings in his ear.
Now... shmucks in the GrimDark. Being shown tangible signs of divine power. The thought of resisting the corruption probably doesn’t even occur to 1 / 100 000 people, much less one that would have the mental fortitude to be *capable* of putting themselves on a path of “redemption”. Nothing is impossible, but I’d say the odds of Daemonic ascension are greater than the odds of “redemption”.
greatbigtree wrote: I think that the severity of difficulty is such that in the fluff, you have a *NAME* if you overcome the seduction of Chaos.
Much like how Mephiston is *the* Blood Angel to overcome the Black Rage. If we estimate 10 BA per year succumb to the BR, then Mephiston would be the 1 / 100 000 that breaks the rule. He has the mental fortitude of a Marine Librarian. And he didn’t have literal Gods and Daemons whispering sweet nothings in his ear.
Now... shmucks in the GrimDark. Being shown tangible signs of divine power. The thought of resisting the corruption probably doesn’t even occur to 1 / 100 000 people, much less one that would have the mental fortitude to be *capable* of putting themselves on a path of “redemption”. Nothing is impossible, but I’d say the odds of Daemonic ascension are greater than the odds of “redemption”.
So what would that make Talos? He basically told all four gods AND Abaddon to take it and stick it.
Which I would argue is sticking with the Night Lords and Curze's personality. Yes they are definitely VERY bad men. But servants of chaos? Only in a few notable exceptions. Mostly they do their own thing. Remember they were the one legion absent from the old Eye of Terror campaign.
Talos has a *Name* although I don’t know it. I’m not a big fluff reader. I believe we were talking about redemption, not rejection.
Without knowing the details of his story... did Talos at one time worship / venerate the powers of Chaos, and then choose to rescind? Or has he, like many Imperial Characters, refused the initial temptation of Chaos? They would be two different scenarios.
Also, to clarify, when I say Schmucks I mean people that have already chosen to follow Chaos. To worship / venerate it and *then* choose to turn their backs on it and instead choose to worship / venerate Order.
I mean, that idea exists? That by standing between a berzerker and a hive full of civilians, shooting the berzerker in the face until he is dead, you are somehow empowering Khorne? I just don't think its borne out in any of the material.
Even if all human aggression feeds Khorne- and there will always be a background radiation of human aggression- Khorne is empowered by massive senseless wars and horrible acts of ultraviolence. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows is a limited statement, intended to convey that there must be conflict- not that he has zero stake in who wins. In the example above, the guardsman who fires his plasmagun from a trenchline before the hive has contributed 1(one) berzerker to the skull throne's coffers, whereas the berzerker would have gladly murdered all the inhabitants of a city for Khorne, if he were unopposed.
I really hate to refute your points with something so simple, but, well... Yes. It is a central point of the Chaos gods that they feed off all emotions linked to them, not just the extremities. I'm on holiday over Christmas, so sources will have to wait, but Khorne very much does feed off the background aggression of the universe (only requirement being a warp presence, I would guess). He is the god of killing and aggression, not only the god of extreme aggression and total war, and while, rightly, he is not the god of self-defense, he is very much the god of the aggression needed and displayed for self defense. That soldier standing his ground to the bezerker very much does feed Khorne.
To make things clear. That does not make it a zero sum game, it doesn't mean all violence is equal ,and it doesn't mean that Khorne, in as much as he truly has vested interests, doesn't have an interest in the outcome or that he feeds as much either way. But it does underline that this is not just a binary situation of good vs. evil or order vs. chaos. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows - all conflict feeds him. This qualitative element of aggression is also visible in his worshippers and champions, as well as in their works. The top dogs and the most famous are mostly blood crazed maniacs: "Break their backs", "Skulls for the skull throne", "kill. maim. burn." and all that. They are (favored) extremists, just as the chaos gods pulls towards extremity in order to beget themselves. That doesn't mean all Khorne worshippers are like that. For example, we find mention of several tribes and societies living on deamon worlds within the eye of terror. Violent, mostly primitive societies, but functional, generational societies non the less, that worship Khorne in some form or another. We also know that Khorne enjoys a battle between equals and the sacrifices of worthy warriors more than the blood of the weak. To underline the point about this not being a clear cut dichotomy between the good empire and and evil chaos. Khorne would probably enjoy the work of the guardsman, for being such a bad ass that he took down one of his (unworthy) champions. He might even hold him in his favor and reward him for it ;-)
This is not some school boy Catholicism, where vices and virtues stands opposed to each other on a spectrum. In this universe, the devil eats from much much more than just the fallen.
To give an example to back up my point, just pulled from the back of my mind. The Cabal during the Horus Heresy. They actively wanted Horus to win, because they foresaw that a victorious Horus would lead to the utter destruction of the human race. They wanted this, and even presumably convinced some fairly high ranking humans of the necessity of it, because a wiped out human race would mean the death of the chaos gods. It was better (to the Cabal) to let humanity burn bright in the warp for some time before the whole race collapsed in on itself, leading to the total erasure of the human emotions whirling up the warp. (This was a possibility because humanity was the all domineering warp present species at the time).
Now, I'm not saying this makes the Cabal "good", or that they shouldn't too be vehemently opposed (as bad guys). But I think it does back up my point. Also, the worst thing the Cabal foresaw was what we got: A stagnant Imperium, with a corpse emperor, slowly, undyingly feeding chaos as it grinds the wheels of empire ever onward.
The puzzle of Chaos is how humanity can fight its dark mirror without becoming it.
The more you fight, the more violent and base you can become and the closer to Khorne you will stray. War strips away at your moral fabric and sense of right and wrong until you are a degenerate hound, baying for blood.
The more you are forced to use guile, deceit, the loftier your ambition and the more you are willing to sacrifice, the more you leave yourself vulnerable to the grand architect.
The more you allow your passions to guide your reason and your obessions become you, you allow the dark prince into your heart.
The more you give in to despair and fear, the more hold the Lord of Decay has over you.
Well, on this we can very much agree, and please bear in mind that this is possible even if Chaos feeds from all. Very well put too. The problem is, as you say, how.
Here I think Natalie and Locarno just made some good points, and I think it is central to the setting that the Imperium (and before that the Emperor) is fighting with tools that can never, ever lead to victory. They might be tragically forced to use those same tools. but it is helpless, endless reciprocity just the same.
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Red Marine wrote: People hate on the IoM for many reasons. They cant beat Imperial soup at their flgs, Primaris marines are going to replace their old marines, etc. I believe the most powerful and venomous hate comes from the familiarity with oppressive governments versus the familiarity with Evil Demon Gods.
The style and culture of the IoM is a purposeful copy of the "coolest" parts of Hitlers 3rd Reich and Stalin's Soviet Union. It also has it's most terrible aspects too. "Nazis riding dinosaurs!" I've honestly seen DKOK modeled on Cold Ones. People see the symbols of those evil empires and Freak the Frack out. Now, demons? Haha Haha. Those aren't real. Soviets and Nazis? Very real.
So whether the IoM is the champion of humanity or not, people are incapable of looking past the IoM's iconography. Flaming demon skulls? "Awesome! I want that on my backpack!" I blame marketing.
While I think you are pretty much right in the money, I do also see the polar opposite occur. Here's an exaggerated example just because it is Christmas: "Those are bad guys, just look at those flaming skulls, that snarling face and those guts coming out of that gut. Clearly bad guys. Now, these guys all up in uniform with that golden Aquila on their breasts. Those bearing it all over just MUST be good guys, just look at how golden and regal it is".
this is not the issue I have. My issue is with players (outside of the lore/universe) arguing that servants of Chaos are 'good'.
The most important factor here is to be able to distinguish between "Chaos" and "Chaos Legions". I've very rarely see people justify chaos itself and the daemons it spawns, but more the Heretic Astartes Legions. As others have said, it's less of a who is "Good Vs. Evil" kind of deal but who is more "Right Vs. Wrong" scenario. Was The Emperor right to make the decisions he made? If so then why did half of the Legions fall? There is a process that is considered why people fall to the darker elements, the Primarchs are such figureheads for that discussion.
Magnus was stabbed in the back by both sides.
Curze literally did nothing wrong, and yet, still got chastised for his actions.
Logar was Emperors experiment to teach Gulliman that one size does not fit all in a wide spinning Galaxy.
Fulgrim was forced.He didn't get much of a say in the matter. Same with Horus.
As for the ordinary folks of the Imperium, you have to remember that most of the time those who have fallen to Heresy, be it Chaos or Xenos, had done so out of desperation for a better life, Consider the story of The Bladed Cog in GSC. They were ruled by a tyrannical machine, and they wanted a better life, they didn't really know what they were getting into. I believe the same could have been said for the Chaos Cults on Vraks.
One of the main appeals of 40k is that no one is the good guy, it's more of who you decide is right in their actions.
I really don't have much sympathy for chaos primarchs or marines. Their daddy issues bore me.I have quite a bit of sympathy for oppressed normal little people of the Imperium, who finally decide to fight back and change things, by whatever means necessary.
Curze literally did nothing wrong, and yet, still got chastised for his actions.
There was that unfortunate habit of peeling people. But aside from that I broadly agree with what you're saying.
Oh, come on now. Who amongst us HASN'T given into temptation and flayed the occasional adversary alive?
I don't know... I usually stop after the casual pulling of finger- and toe nails, you know, maybe a tooth or two, but then again, I was always raised to be bloody polite...
Curze literally did nothing wrong, and yet, still got chastised for his actions.
There was that unfortunate habit of peeling people. But aside from that I broadly agree with what you're saying.
Oh, come on now. Who amongst us HASN'T given into temptation and flayed the occasional adversary alive?
I don't know... I usually stop after the casual pulling of finger- and toe nails, you know, maybe a tooth or two, but then again, I was always raised to be bloody polite...
Curze literally did nothing wrong, and yet, still got chastised for his actions.
There was that unfortunate habit of peeling people. But aside from that I broadly agree with what you're saying.
Well seeing as the Emperor created him to do just that then I would argue it's hard to say he did something wrong when he merely acted as intended.
Also the defining of Curze's actions as "evil " compared to the actions of other primarchs and the Emperor really comes down to the idiotic way humans generally view violence when scale gets involved. Someone who stabs a stranger to death in an alley is a murderer and will be hung. A general who orders a mass napalm bombing of thousands of civilians thus causing vastly greater death and suffering will most likely get a medal, political career, and maybe a road/public building named after him.
The Night Lords method of horribly killing their opponents up close in order to terrify them into submission seems horrible but it generally was said to cause less casualties than the total war waged by the rest of the Crusade forces. Would you prefer to be personally "peeled " by Curze or impersonally fire/virus bombed by one of the "nice" primarchs?
Pretty sure either option will result in a horrible death. At least the Night Lords will look you in the eye first.
People have mentioned that there seem to be a lack of reciprocal “falling” from chaos to order, but we do have at least two examples I can think of even if the nature of the Imperium and their rejection of chaos meant they wouldn’t be fully accepted back into the human fold ever.
******************SPOILERS*******************
We have the Traitor General from the Guants Ghosts novels, who essentially becomes a traitor to chaos, supplying the Imperials with information while also saying that he is essentially at the point of being a conscientious objector. Additionally there is the character from Daemon World who essentially know he is still damned due to a millennia in service to the dark gods, but decides to rebel against them and to hit them where it hurts most destroy their prize jewel of a corrupted maiden world they had been fighting over.
So I think that chaos to order traitors could happen it’s just very hard due to the nature of selling your soul, and the fact that the Order faction thinks you may be irrevocably corrupted and just shoot you on the spot instead of accept you back into the fold.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Getting bombed strikes me as a far less bad way to die then slowly being skinned to death.
If you believe that everyone killed in bombing, artillery, or chemical/biological attacks dies quickly and painlessly then you need to study some actual military history and stop watching G.I. Joe.
Well, playing the odds, being skinned is effectively guaranteed slow and painful death. Particularly if administered by a “professional”.
Whereas bombing, due to the indiscriminate nature of the attack *could* be quick. And in any case, probably less painful than being skinned. Heck, you might even survive bombing.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Getting bombed strikes me as a far less bad way to die then slowly being skinned to death.
If you believe that everyone killed in bombing, artillery, or chemical/biological attacks dies quickly and painlessly then you need to study some actual military history and stop watching G.I. Joe.
I'm well aware of the fact that bombing can cause long term suffering. I'd probably still take it over being skinned alive.
=Angel= wrote: ...Right of conquest. That's entirely secular, and differs from Might makes Right (Chaos) in key ways. If the Imperium of Man contacted our world today, the Emperor and the Highlords would be recognised as the legitimate government of all their territories, for the same reason that the US isn't governed by native Americans...
And the Native Americans recognize the US government as the legitimate government of all their territories and hold no ill will over the whole mess, do they?
agurus1 wrote: People have mentioned that there seem to be a lack of reciprocal “falling” from chaos to order, but we do have at least two examples I can think of even if the nature of the Imperium and their rejection of chaos meant they wouldn’t be fully accepted back into the human fold ever.
******************SPOILERS*******************
We have the Traitor General from the Guants Ghosts novels, who essentially becomes a traitor to chaos, supplying the Imperials with information while also saying that he is essentially at the point of being a conscientious objector. Additionally there is the character from Daemon World who essentially know he is still damned due to a millennia in service to the dark gods, but decides to rebel against them and to hit them where it hurts most destroy their prize jewel of a corrupted maiden world they had been fighting over.
So I think that chaos to order traitors could happen it’s just very hard due to the nature of selling your soul, and the fact that the Order faction thinks you may be irrevocably corrupted and just shoot you on the spot instead of accept you back into the fold.
That traitor guy from Demon World were a quite atypical person wasn't he? Been ages since I read it, but I seem to remember him being some sort of aeons old sorcerer/perpetual/something something who hid among the Emperor's legions because he believed in the cause, fell to chaos with his new Word Bearer brethren, and now returned to reap some vengeance on the chaos gods for luring him in in the first place? What a weirdly nihilistic, mess of a book btw. Some very cool fight scenes tho.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Getting bombed strikes me as a far less bad way to die then slowly being skinned to death.
If you believe that everyone killed in bombing, artillery, or chemical/biological attacks dies quickly and painlessly then you need to study some actual military history and stop watching G.I. Joe.
I'm well aware of the fact that bombing can cause long term suffering. I'd probably still take it over being skinned alive.
I think anyone in their right mind would want pretty much any other faith than being skinned alive seriously. However, wasn't the original question wether it is truly more evil to kill a relative few horrifyingly gruesomely than to kill millions or even billions indiscriminately?
greatbigtree wrote: Well, playing the odds, being skinned is effectively guaranteed slow and painful death. Particularly if administered by a “professional”.
Whereas bombing, due to the indiscriminate nature of the attack *could* be quick. And in any case, probably less painful than being skinned. Heck, you might even survive bombing.
greatbigtree wrote: Well, playing the odds, being skinned is effectively guaranteed slow and painful death. Particularly if administered by a “professional”.
Whereas bombing, due to the indiscriminate nature of the attack *could* be quick. And in any case, probably less painful than being skinned. Heck, you might even survive bombing.
But you are NOT going to survive being skinned.
Unless it's the Drukhari doing it.
Pretty sure death is the preferable fate by a damned good margin in that particular scenario.
Yeah, I figured I’d take a shot at getting the train back on the rails.
To which - spite - May be a piss-poor reason to sympathize with Chaos, but if someone were torturing you, I suppose it’s nice to know you have a potential way out?
greatbigtree wrote: Yeah, I figured I’d take a shot at getting the train back on the rails.
To which - spite - May be a piss-poor reason to sympathize with Chaos, but if someone were torturing you, I suppose it’s nice to know you have a potential way out?
So... what if we exchange the very hands on torture with the torturous existence of living under and being utterly controlled to the point of slavery by a boots to the neck, unyielding, uncaring and excessively violent and harsh 1984'ish totalitarian regime. A regime leaving you with absolutely no chance of escape, nor any way at all to better the situation for neither you, nor your family?
greatbigtree wrote: Yeah, I figured I’d take a shot at getting the train back on the rails.
To which - spite - May be a piss-poor reason to sympathize with Chaos, but if someone were torturing you, I suppose it’s nice to know you have a potential way out?
So... what if we exchange the very hands on torture with the torturous existence of living under and being utterly controlled to the point of slavery by a boots to the neck, unyielding, uncaring and excessively violent and harsh 1984'ish totalitarian regime. A regime leaving you with absolutely no chance of escape, nor any way at all to better the situation for neither you, nor your family?
Just like politics at the moment - to the best of their heavily restricted knowledge it’s better than the alternatives.
Hey, I can sympathize with the reasons that people would reject the Imperium's rule, and in a universe where Gods are demonstrably real via demonic entities that can grant tangible “gifts”, I can certainly see taking that risk.
Blindly, perhaps even stupidly, but yeah. I’d try to get out from under that boot.
I really hate to refute your points with something so simple, but, well... Yes. It is a central point of the Chaos gods that they feed off all emotions linked to them, not just the extremities. I'm on holiday over Christmas, so sources will have to wait, but Khorne very much does feed off the background aggression of the universe (only requirement being a warp presence, I would guess). He is the god of killing and aggression, not only the god of extreme aggression and total war, and while, rightly, he is not the god of self-defense, he is very much the god of the aggression needed and displayed for self defense. That soldier standing his ground to the bezerker very much does feed Khorne.
To make things clear. That does not make it a zero sum game, it doesn't mean all violence is equal ,and it doesn't mean that Khorne, in as much as he truly has vested interests, doesn't have an interest in the outcome or that he feeds as much either way. But it does underline that this is not just a binary situation of good vs. evil or order vs. chaos. Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows - all conflict feeds him. This qualitative element of aggression is also visible in his worshippers and champions, as well as in their works. The top dogs and the most famous are mostly blood crazed maniacs: "Break their backs", "Skulls for the skull throne", "kill. maim. burn." and all that. They are (favored) extremists, just as the chaos gods pulls towards extremity in order to beget themselves. That doesn't mean all Khorne worshippers are like that. For example, we find mention of several tribes and societies living on deamon worlds within the eye of terror. Violent, mostly primitive societies, but functional, generational societies non the less, that worship Khorne in some form or another. We also know that Khorne enjoys a battle between equals and the sacrifices of worthy warriors more than the blood of the weak. To underline the point about this not being a clear cut dichotomy between the good empire and and evil chaos. Khorne would probably enjoy the work of the guardsman, for being such a bad ass that he took down one of his (unworthy) champions. He might even hold him in his favor and reward him for it ;-)
This is not some school boy Catholicism, where vices and virtues stands opposed to each other on a spectrum. In this universe, the devil eats from much much more than just the fallen.
I take your point that Khorne may be fuelled by that background aggression. But the issue is how much? A starving man subsisting on Moss and beetles is being fed, but he is slowly dying. The Emperor (who was wrong mainly about the character of his sons than any technical issue) believed that the background aggression/vice of the human race was not enough to sustain Khorne. He reckoned he could defeat the chaos gods by starving them, even as he launched a great crusade to free humanity from alien and psychic dominion (and all that troublesome religion and sovereignty). If the Anathema to Chaos thought that the violence of the crusade would help rather than hurt the chaos gods, he would have found another way. Instead he reckoned hammering out a new order would provide humanity with enough unity to resist the chaos powers and shepherd mankind into psychic dominion of the galaxy.
There's a meme that the Emperor was naive, but not so much that he expected humanity to drop all sexy/violent/cunning/desperate thoughts just because he plastered eagles and tasteful arches everywhere.
I'd accept that Khorne enjoys the spectacle of Cain and Jurgen melta-ing and chainswording one of his chosen champions. I don't accept that he's pleased that the bloodshed has now ceased, or that he (Cain) has praised the Anathema for his fortuitous deliverance, offering worship to Khorne's archenemy. He eats the soul of the Berzerker, or spits him out into a new warpforged body, or throws him to his hounds to tear asunder.
Aestas wrote: To give an example to back up my point, just pulled from the back of my mind. The Cabal during the Horus Heresy. They actively wanted Horus to win, because they foresaw that a victorious Horus would lead to the utter destruction of the human race. They wanted this, and even presumably convinced some fairly high ranking humans of the necessity of it, because a wiped out human race would mean the death of the chaos gods. It was better (to the Cabal) to let humanity burn bright in the warp for some time before the whole race collapsed in on itself, leading to the total erasure of the human emotions whirling up the warp. (This was a possibility because humanity was the all domineering warp present species at the time).
Now, I'm not saying this makes the Cabal "good", or that they shouldn't too be vehemently opposed (as bad guys). But I think it does back up my point. Also, the worst thing the Cabal foresaw was what we got: A stagnant Imperium, with a corpse emperor, slowly, undyingly feeding chaos as it grinds the wheels of empire ever onward.
The Cabal was a bunch of xenos and xenos alligned humans whose plan was for humanity to self destruct violently to save the galaxy for scum sucking aliens to enjoy. Their plan was based on two false premises:
1: The Emperor could not succeed
2: The galaxy of the 41st millennium is not preferable to human extinction (for humanity)
In a sense, the cabal gave us what we got. If the cabal had mobilised all their xenos fleets to Terra or some other decisive battle before it, or even just stayed out of the whole affair, the Emperor could have stayed whole, the traitors could have been decisively destroyed in detail and the galaxy could have been spared 10 millennia of Abaddon shaking a stolen powerfist at it from the Eye of Terror. Without the traitor legions and their raids, chaos would only have disorganised beastmen and mutants on spacehulks to throw at the Emperor and his legions.
Aestas wrote: Well, on this we can very much agree, and please bear in mind that this is possible even if Chaos feeds from all. Very well put too. The problem is, as you say, how.
Here I think Natalie and Locarno just made some good points, and I think it is central to the setting that the Imperium (and before that the Emperor) is fighting with tools that can never, ever lead to victory. They might be tragically forced to use those same tools. but it is helpless, endless reciprocity just the same.
I don't think that's true though. I think the tragedy is that the Emperor could have made it work. The chaos gods made a hail-mary play to save themselves, throwing everything at the wall and it worked because of the Cabal, because of the human hubris of the Primarchs and because of the narrative requirements to produce 40k. The corruption of the Word Bearers, pilgrimages into the eye, Horus, the Ruinstorm to contain the Ultramarines, the attempt to turn Sanguinius- if it was always going to end in tears, the chaos gods needn't have worked as hard.
Aestas wrote: While I think you are pretty much right in the money, I do also see the polar opposite occur. Here's an exaggerated example just because it is Christmas: "Those are bad guys, just look at those flaming skulls, that snarling face and those guts coming out of that gut. Clearly bad guys. Now, these guys all up in uniform with that golden Aquila on their breasts. Those bearing it all over just MUST be good guys, just look at how golden and regal it is".
(you can blame marketing for that one too)
Btw. Merry Yuletide everyone!
Merry Christentide.
One of the reason I dislike the new Primaris is that they lack the snarling MkVII helms that look like Vader took a course in angry. The basic Primaris helm and the Mk IV its based on are less obviously villainous than the brutal marines we have had for many years.
40k communicates a lot visually, as a miniatures game. The Imperium's uniforms visually echo powerful but authoritarian governments form our history and the Ecclesiarchy echoes the familiar alongside the worst of Europe's religious history. Its not meant to look aspirational- its meant to look cool. Diluting that with Golden knights and neutral space soldiers doesn't help the game much.
=Angel= wrote: ...Right of conquest. That's entirely secular, and differs from Might makes Right (Chaos) in key ways. If the Imperium of Man contacted our world today, the Emperor and the Highlords would be recognised as the legitimate government of all their territories, for the same reason that the US isn't governed by native Americans...
And the Native Americans recognize the US government as the legitimate government of all their territories and hold no ill will over the whole mess, do they?
The smart ones do. It's what they were doing to each other, after all. I don't think American Indians can be called upon as allies in a potential coup against the US government.
greatbigtree wrote: Hey, I can sympathize with the reasons that people would reject the Imperium's rule, and in a universe where Gods are demonstrably real via demonic entities that can grant tangible “gifts”, I can certainly see taking that risk.
Blindly, perhaps even stupidly, but yeah. I’d try to get out from under that boot.
That's part of the issue with the Imperium's "the armor of ignorance" policy. It's like in the stories for Psychic Awakening where the group of psychic refugees is forced to have someone offer to get their eye stabbed out as payment so that the group can be "rescued" by the Red King.
Or the number of situations where there's no way to tell whether some regional sect is a real Imperial cult, a Genestealer cult, a Chaos cult, or just plain weird. But no one knows any better, so it's just the way the local cult is.
There is a ton of stuff in the early material about early stage Chaos devotees not having any idea what it is that they're dealing with. A lot of the times, it's just seen as "Finally, I've got a way to get out from underneath the boot." And because the setting isn't one known for peaceful co-existence, once you've tried to get out from under the boot, the next thing you have to deal with is the bigger boot to replace the one you got out from under. And then everything spirals out of control from there.
agurus1 wrote: People have mentioned that there seem to be a lack of reciprocal “falling” from chaos to order, but we do have at least two examples I can think of even if the nature of the Imperium and their rejection of chaos meant they wouldn’t be fully accepted back into the human fold ever.
******************SPOILERS*******************
We have the Traitor General from the Guants Ghosts novels, who essentially becomes a traitor to chaos, supplying the Imperials with information while also saying that he is essentially at the point of being a conscientious objector. Additionally there is the character from Daemon World who essentially know he is still damned due to a millennia in service to the dark gods, but decides to rebel against them and to hit them where it hurts most destroy their prize jewel of a corrupted maiden world they had been fighting over.
So I think that chaos to order traitors could happen it’s just very hard due to the nature of selling your soul, and the fact that the Order faction thinks you may be irrevocably corrupted and just shoot you on the spot instead of accept you back into the fold.
That traitor guy from Demon World were a quite atypical person wasn't he? Been ages since I read it, but I seem to remember him being some sort of aeons old sorcerer/perpetual/something something who hid among the Emperor's legions because he believed in the cause, fell to chaos with his new Word Bearer brethren, and now returned to reap some vengeance on the chaos gods for luring him in in the first place? What a weirdly nihilistic, mess of a book btw. Some very cool fight scenes tho.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Getting bombed strikes me as a far less bad way to die then slowly being skinned to death.
If you believe that everyone killed in bombing, artillery, or chemical/biological attacks dies quickly and painlessly then you need to study some actual military history and stop watching G.I. Joe.
I'm well aware of the fact that bombing can cause long term suffering. I'd probably still take it over being skinned alive.
I think anyone in their right mind would want pretty much any other faith than being skinned alive seriously. However, wasn't the original question wether it is truly more evil to kill a relative few horrifyingly gruesomely than to kill millions or even billions indiscriminately?
Yes that was what I was originally trying to argue. Also the fact that people generally seem to be more ok with killing as long as it takes place at a distance and they don't have to know the gruesome details.
And don't forget the Imperium doesn't just use conventional ordnance. They also use chemical and biological. Phosphex and virus bombs anyone?
In a sense, the cabal gave us what we got. If the cabal had mobilised all their xenos fleets to Terra or some other decisive battle before it, or even just stayed out of the whole affair, the Emperor could have stayed whole
I'm not sure staying out of it would have been enough, but they certainly needn't have got involved in the shooting. A pretty big chunk of the heresy could have been avoided by ensuring the Emperor was aware exactly where Kor Phaeron's loyalties lay.
Of course, that assumes the cabal knew in advance about him - the acuity may be supposedly all-knowing and infallible but the fact Eldrad was able to do what he did kind of undermines that idea...
Really, if we were to reduce the whole 30K/40K metaplot down to one theme, it's "Nobody is half as smart as they think they are." It's all one massive Xanatos Gambit pileup where nobody is playing with anywhere near a full deck and nobody really knows if their plans/precognitive visions are being manipulated by somebody else. And everyone is also an arrogant douchnozzle who thinks they alone have all the right answers.
Duskweaver wrote: Really, if we were to reduce the whole 30K/40K metaplot down to one theme, it's "Nobody is half as smart as they think they are." It's all one massive Xanatos Gambit pileup where nobody is playing with anywhere near a full deck and nobody really knows if their plans/precognitive visions are being manipulated by somebody else. And everyone is also an arrogant douchnozzle who thinks they alone have all the right answers.
And in everyone's arrogance, Primordial Annihilator wins. Magnus thought that he was and is more clever than anyone. Primordial Annihilator had manipulated and manipulates Magnus like a toy.
Emperor thought he was smarter than everyone. In doing so, he had created this future himself. The state of affairs now is directly handiwork or his failure, not the efforts of Chaos. It is an interesting irony. Like Horus was shown future and what it would mean to fail, like son like father, Emperor too "seen the future" and was creating it by his own very hands while thinking that he is trying to stop this from happening.
That's part of the issue with the Imperium's "the armor of ignorance" policy. It's like in the stories for Psychic Awakening where the group of psychic refugees is forced to have someone offer to get their eye stabbed out as payment so that the group can be "rescued" by the Red King.
Or the number of situations where there's no way to tell whether some regional sect is a real Imperial cult, a Genestealer cult, a Chaos cult, or just plain weird. But no one knows any better, so it's just the way the local cult is.
There is a ton of stuff in the early material about early stage Chaos devotees not having any idea what it is that they're dealing with. A lot of the times, it's just seen as "Finally, I've got a way to get out from underneath the boot." And because the setting isn't one known for peaceful co-existence, once you've tried to get out from under the boot, the next thing you have to deal with is the bigger boot to replace the one you got out from under. And then everything spirals out of control from there.
This is a fair point. Its part of the fun of the setting, and I agree that the Imperium goes about this in a hamfisted, incompetent way but there are in universe reasons for a lot of this.
One is that it is impossible and impractical for the Imperium to force orthodoxy beyond rooting out obvious chaos cults- due to the sale of the galaxy, the limits of warp travel and the inaccuracy/unreliability of telepathy- each domain (and to a lesser extent each world) stands alone, connected by trade and oaths to each other in a vast web. The Bloodsworn of the Eternal Warrior may be a sanctioned Imperial warrior fraternity (venerating the Immortal God-Emperor in his aspect of mankind's champion) or a dangerous chaos cult, but its the Inquisitors job to find out which.
Second is that Chaos is so malign that even naming one of the chaos gods or hearing the name can cause physical/psychic pain. They are magic words, in a sense, and talking or thinking about chaos can lead to spiritual corruption. The runes of the gods are said to hurt the eyes of non corrupted humans who view them. Even inquisitors go radical and get corrupted. An attempt to educate the populace with PSA's could only address the most cursory of details.
There is a reason that cults begin addressing the 'changers of the ways' or the 'blood god'- these are more than just honorifics- they are euphemisms and ways to discuss the chaos powers in a way that doesn't immediately cause your brain to hurt. While the Blood Pact does scream the name Khorne, the corpse grinder blood cult probably haven't even heard it. Now that they are corrupted through ritual and practice, they could probably employ the runes and names of the gods and daemons, if they knew them.
The aforementioned story about the psykers willing to make a ritual mutilation of their own body in order to bargain passage to the planet of the Sorcerors- Doesn't mention Tzeentch or Magnus by name. The Red King is used as an alternate name for Magnus, and Tzeentch is not brought up- but the psykers are definitely doing blood magic for Tzeentch.
What the Imperium is doing is probably the best that can be achieved with the resources at hand, and with the prevailing culture.
Duskweaver wrote: Really, if we were to reduce the whole 30K/40K metaplot down to one theme, it's "Nobody is half as smart as they think they are." It's all one massive Xanatos Gambit pileup where nobody is playing with anywhere near a full deck and nobody really knows if their plans/precognitive visions are being manipulated by somebody else. And everyone is also an arrogant douchnozzle who thinks they alone have all the right answers.
Is the theory correct? IDK. sounds good enough to me to work with. Yes, I get that these duders are not nice and will not treat any one before them with...mercy? respect? But this is 40k, and 1, not many of the factions show restraint or mercy, and 2, it's all fake, so I have no issue sleeping at night.
edit:Abby on a mission to kill the Emp for the Emp, sent by the Emp, using the Emp's failed tools, in a war of mutual destruction, to restart at zero.
At some point, Abby stares into the astronomicon, in the period following Horus’ death. Because the Emperor controls the Astronomicon, he might have subliminal messaged Abby into trying to destroy his mortal form, since the loyal servants won’t.
This frees the Emp to either be reborn, as a perpetual, or ascend to Godhood.
Abby actively refuses the pacts of the Gods. Even if he wins, a “mortal” man controls the Imperium, not the Gods. In order for Abby to take down the Emp, it would virtually wipe out both loyal and rebel Marines, similar to the treatment the Thunder Warriors got when they were done.
Depleting the number of living humans also diminishes the raw power of the Chaos Gods (fewer batteries) and with a resurgent Emperor and Chaos unable to recover from their losses... long-game victory.
All the factions are bad in 40k, the issue is because the imperium are largely the "protagonists" some people think they are good.
Tell that to the alien races that were minding their business who just got genocided because the Imperium wanted their world. No one is good in 40k.
To quote Terry Pratchett.
“I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.”
It's more a fascination with a 'tragic' situation. Some guys who thought they had it figured out, and it devoured them and they're on a downward spiral.
It's more a fascination with a 'tragic' situation. Some guys who thought they had it figured out, and it devoured them and they're on a downward spiral.
It's more a fascination with a 'tragic' situation. Some guys who thought they had it figured out, and it devoured them and they're on a downward spiral.
Yup that's my interest in chaos as well.
Alpha Legion fascinate me because, well, they're fun to theorycraft around. My current theory on the Unbroken Chain?
The Alpha Legion is Alpharius. Literally. He shared his blood with them, and part of his consciousness merged with their own (they've done this before). Alpharius, before his fall at the hands of Dorn, was already a sort of 'dispersed consciousness' across his entire Legion.
Is the Alpha Legion loyal? Or are they traitor? Whose side are they on? That's their 'curse'. All legions have a sort of theme that's like a Curse, and Alpha Legion's seems to be 'cause chaos for everyone', like a compulsion. They have no idea whose side they are on, it's not just a meme- it's a sort of mental condition.
The "Abaddon is actually doing the Emperor's will, probably without even knowing it" theory would fit quite well with his actual name, since the odd thing about the Biblical Abaddon is that it's open to interpretation whether he is a fallen or a loyal angel. Sure, he's an embodiment of death and destruction, associated with Sheol (Hell), but he also shows up in Revelation carrying the keys of Hell, suggesting he's the jailor rather than an inmate.
I also agree with Adeptus Doritos about the Alpha Legion. I like the idea that when an Alpha Legionnaire says "I am Alpharius", it might be literally true, at least in that moment.
It's more a fascination with a 'tragic' situation. Some guys who thought they had it figured out, and it devoured them and they're on a downward spiral.
Yup that's my interest in chaos as well.
Alpha Legion fascinate me because, well, they're fun to theorycraft around. My current theory on the Unbroken Chain?
The Alpha Legion is Alpharius. Literally. He shared his blood with them, and part of his consciousness merged with their own (they've done this before). Alpharius, before his fall at the hands of Dorn, was already a sort of 'dispersed consciousness' across his entire Legion.
Is the Alpha Legion loyal? Or are they traitor? Whose side are they on? That's their 'curse'. All legions have a sort of theme that's like a Curse, and Alpha Legion's seems to be 'cause chaos for everyone', like a compulsion. They have no idea whose side they are on, it's not just a meme- it's a sort of mental condition.
We call them here vulgär anarchist.
Literally vulgar anarchist,or vandals.
Melissia wrote: Eh, unrepentant jackasses aren't that interesting or original.
So you agree about the Blood Angels I see.
No. Because Blood Angels, despite their flaws, are at least trying to defend something greater than themselves and know that their flaws are something to control rather than embrace.
The same cannot be said of Chaos Marines, who become higher ranking the more they embrace their evil and jackassery.
Melissia wrote: Eh, unrepentant jackasses aren't that interesting or original.
So you agree about the Blood Angels I see.
No. Because Blood Angels, despite their flaws, are at least trying to defend something greater than themselves and know that their flaws are something to control rather than embrace.
The same cannot be said of Chaos Marines, who become higher ranking the more they embrace their evil and jackassery.
Super human pretty boys with a thirst for blood who control it in order to do "good ".
shinros wrote: All the factions are bad in 40k, the issue is because the imperium are largely the "protagonists" some people think they are good.
Tell that to the alien races that were minding their business who just got genocided because the Imperium wanted their world. No one is good in 40k.
To quote Terry Pratchett.
“I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.”
This quote sums up 40k.
If you apply Pratchett's quote broadly, the people who are starved and killed by totalitarian warlords are also bad people. Which of course, is true, but it ignores all of the context and nuance that may exist between victim and aggressor.
Pinochet throwing Communists out of helicopters broadly similar to the Communist party murdering and disappearing its political opponents. Both are broadly similar to a police force shooting terrorists. Two of these examples can be beneficial to the people of the nation and could be considered a public good, the other is merely a cycle of violence intended to preserve power at any cost.
Rudyard Kipling's 'The Stranger' contextualises the 'bad' of his own people with the 'badness of the stranger'
Spoiler:
The Stranger within my gate,
He may be true or kind,
But he does not talk my talk--
I cannot feel his mind.
I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
But not the soul behind.
The men of my own stock,
They may do ill or well,
But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
They are used to the lies I tell;
And we do not need interpreters
When we go to buy or sell.
The Stranger within my gates,
He may be evil or good,
But I cannot tell what powers control--
What reasons sway his mood;
Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
Shall repossess his blood.
The men of my own stock,
Bitter bad they may be,
But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
And see the things I see;
And whatever I think of them and their likes
They think of the likes of me.
This was my father's belief
And this is also mine:
Let the corn be all one sheaf--
And the grapes be all one vine,
Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
By bitter bread and wine.
There is the bad that comes from your own family, stock and people and the evil that is forced on you by other alien groups. (Xenos, quite literally and Chaos figuratively)
The Imperium's failings and evils are inherent to it and the people who live there. They are human failings and our own. Chaos is an extradimensional force that seeks to tear down all that people value. Xenos are quite literal aliens who cannot have our best interests at heart. The Imperium is a big brother who treats you unkindly, the other galactic powers are lions and tigers that will eat you. There's no moral sense to be had in equating them.
shinros wrote: All the factions are bad in 40k, the issue is because the imperium are largely the "protagonists" some people think they are good.
Tell that to the alien races that were minding their business who just got genocided because the Imperium wanted their world. No one is good in 40k.
To quote Terry Pratchett.
“I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are good people and bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.”
This quote sums up 40k.
If you apply Pratchett's quote broadly, the people who are starved and killed by totalitarian warlords are also bad people. Which of course, is true, but it ignores all of the context and nuance that may exist between victim and aggressor.
Pinochet throwing Communists out of helicopters broadly similar to the Communist party murdering and disappearing its political opponents. Both are broadly similar to a police force shooting terrorists. Two of these examples can be beneficial to the people of the nation and could be considered a public good, the other is merely a cycle of violence intended to preserve power at any cost.
Rudyard Kipling's 'The Stranger' contextualises the 'bad' of his own people with the 'badness of the stranger'
Spoiler:
The Stranger within my gate,
He may be true or kind,
But he does not talk my talk--
I cannot feel his mind.
I see the face and the eyes and the mouth,
But not the soul behind.
The men of my own stock,
They may do ill or well,
But they tell the lies I am wanted to,
They are used to the lies I tell;
And we do not need interpreters
When we go to buy or sell.
The Stranger within my gates,
He may be evil or good,
But I cannot tell what powers control--
What reasons sway his mood;
Nor when the Gods of his far-off land
Shall repossess his blood.
The men of my own stock,
Bitter bad they may be,
But, at least, they hear the things I hear,
And see the things I see;
And whatever I think of them and their likes
They think of the likes of me.
This was my father's belief
And this is also mine:
Let the corn be all one sheaf--
And the grapes be all one vine,
Ere our children's teeth are set on edge
By bitter bread and wine.
There is the bad that comes from your own family, stock and people and the evil that is forced on you by other alien groups. (Xenos, quite literally and Chaos figuratively)
The Imperium's failings and evils are inherent to it and the people who live there. They are human failings and our own. Chaos is an extradimensional force that seeks to tear down all that people value. Xenos are quite literal aliens who cannot have our best interests at heart. The Imperium is a big brother who treats you unkindly, the other galactic powers are lions and tigers that will eat you. There's no moral sense to be had in equating them.
The imperium is bad, they all are. End of. It's a totalitarian regime where most of its practices are not even necessary in the grand scheme of things. Said practices is so bad it makes people choose chaos, the imperium sucks, chaos sucks and aliens suck. That's the point of the setting, bad factions slapping each other for survival and power.
=Angel= wrote: There is the bad that comes from your own family, stock and people and the evil that is forced on you by other alien groups. (Xenos, quite literally and Chaos figuratively) The Imperium's failings and evils are inherent to it and the people who live there. They are human failings and our own. Chaos is an extradimensional force that seeks to tear down all that people value. Xenos are quite literal aliens who cannot have our best interests at heart. The Imperium is a big brother who treats you unkindly, the other galactic powers are lions and tigers that will eat you. There's no moral sense to be had in equating them.
Basically this. That all factions in 40k are evil doesn't mean all factions in 40k are equal. Factions like the Imperium or the Tau Empire or the Eldar remnants are all morally superior to Chaos in spite of their misdeeds, due to the magnitude of evil Chaos not only does, but the evil it outright embraces and does with insane glee, with the Chaos gods explicitly rewarding those who cause the most suffering and destruction not only to the enemies of Chaos but within the servants of Chaos themselves.
Being immoral is not conforming to social standards of morality but they belong to a society that has no morality so there are no standards for them to conform to.
Round and around and around we go, where it ends nobody knows!
I didn't say morality was objective. It's pretty subjective, though if you go too far that direction you risk becoming an ethical relativist, but I meant that Chaos worshipers exist within a society where worshiping Chaos, their very defining trait, is immoral. That's why Chaos gods doing their thing in their own society, being their own creatures, is neither moral nor immoral, while Chaos worshipers can have morality applied to them for the purposes of a discussion.
I didn't say morality was objective. It's pretty subjective, though if you go too far that direction you risk becoming an ethical relativist, but I meant that Chaos worshipers exist within a society where worshiping Chaos, their very defining trait, is immoral. That's why Chaos gods doing their thing in their own society, being their own creatures, is neither moral nor immoral, while Chaos worshipers can have morality applied to them for the purposes of a discussion.
Pfft, citation request from a guy who hasn't cited a single damn thing in support of his rather lazy arguments this entire thread.
Chaos is where the quote "Let no good deed go unpunished. Let no evil deed go unrewarded." comes from within the context of 40k. Their champions-- those chosen by their gods as the voice of Chaos-- are constantly on and on about destruction for the sole sake of destruction and killing for the sole sake of killing. Killing, despoiling, destroying, enslaving, all for the sake of scrabbling for a few scraps of power handed down from the chaos gods, whom reward the pain, suffering, and death they cause to others.
The culture that the Chaos Gods push through their servants is a celebration of evil, corruption, destruction, and suffering.
A scorpion stings a person because intended or not the person has threatened the scorpion, it wasn't because "That's what scorpions do" it was a defensive response. When they hunt and sting something it is a self preservation response to hunger.
That aside once an entity gets to the level of using imagination, being creative and commanding others they are sentient and no longer bound completely to responsive behaviour.
Orks in command can imagine how both their troops and the enemy will respond and react which makes them capable of empathy. They are beyond it's just what they do.
In the same way I'll allow a baby or toddler being destructive but not a child, teenager or adult I'll wave off the scorpion, squib, snotling and maybe even the gretchin as being underdeveloped creatures of instinct, by the time they're recognised as Orks they're responsibility for their actions is equal to and even exceeding their instinctive behaviours.
Pfft, citation request from a guy who hasn't cited a single damn thing in support of his rather lazy arguments this entire thread.
Chaos is where the quote "Let no good deed go unpunished. Let no evil deed go unrewarded." comes from within the context of 40k. Their champions-- those chosen by their gods as the voice of Chaos-- are constantly on and on about destruction for the sole sake of destruction and killing for the sole sake of killing. Killing, despoiling, destroying, enslaving, all for the sake of scrabbling for a few scraps of power handed down from the chaos gods, whom reward the pain, suffering, and death they cause to others.
The culture that the Chaos Gods push through their servants is a celebration of evil, corruption, destruction, and suffering.
What am I missing citations for? My personal proclivities? Misquoting Nietzsche? A Kevin Smith movie? Do you not know who Azrael and Belial are in Judeo-Christian culture without being walked through it? That's the sum total of my posts in this thread. None have citations because none require a citation. Get down off the cross.
Nothing that you recited provides any support whatsoever to your previous contention. "[G]ood", "unpunished", "evil", "unrewarded" are all ambiguous, subjective terms that you're pretending have one definition. You're pretending there's such a thing as objective morality and that everyone and everything necessarily shares your POV of what that is. It isn't true and you haven't come close to establishing that it is true.
Excommunicatus wrote: "[G]ood", "unpunished", "evil", "unrewarded" are all ambiguous, subjective terms that you're pretending have one definition.
Aka "blah blah blah I don't want to feel like chaos marines are evil even as they gleefully rape, torture, destroy, slaughter, and burn their way across the galaxy for laughs and power".
Please, as if I haven't seen that tired old argument before. Moral relativism is not "there is no morality". The servants of Chaos acknowledge that they are evil, they own it and embrace it, and use it for power. That quote about good and evil is directly from more than one Chaos Marines codex. To embrace cruelty and sacrifice others for your own selfish gain is the very essence of Chaos, and they are not shy about saying it. By saying they aren't evil you're actually contradicting how the servants of Chaos describe themselves.
Excommunicatus wrote: "[G]ood", "unpunished", "evil", "unrewarded" are all ambiguous, subjective terms that you're pretending have one definition.
Aka "blah blah blah I don't want to feel like chaos marines are evil even as they gleefully rape, torture, destroy, slaughter, and burn their way across the galaxy for laughs and power".
Please, as if I haven't seen that tired old argument before. Moral relativism is not "there is no morality". The servants of Chaos acknowledge that they are evil, they own it and embrace it, and use it for power. That quote about good and evil is directly from more than one Chaos Marines codex. To embrace cruelty and sacrifice others for your own selfish gain is the very essence of Chaos, and they are not shy about saying it. By saying they aren't evil you're actually contradicting how the servants of Chaos describe themselves.
You keep saying this, but it isn't true and you haven't shown it to be true. You just stated it was true and moved on.
I have literally never once said that there is no such thing as morality. Morality is subjective. Some people think whipping someone else is immoral. Some don't. Some people think being whipped is a punishment. Some don't. Who are you to say who is right and who is wrong?
From the subjective morality of the IoM, Chaos is "evil". From the subjective morality of Chaos, it isn't.
EDIT - FWIW, I don't care if the prevailing opinion is that Heretic Astartes and Chaos is/are "evil", 'cause - get this, right - the models I paint and put on a table are not a direct representation of me as a person; they're just toy soldiers.
I think the problem comes from perspective. Evil from whose point of view? Just because a Chaos marine uses the word evil doesn’t mean he is, doesn’t mean he means evil from his perspective so much as an act his enemies would consider evil. We have that kind of discrepancy here on Earth, and we’re only one planet. Imagine a million Earths with a million times our different cultures. One cultural word for evil might not be the sameness in another. That’s even before you toss in Xenos and Chaos.
As well as the ability to see the question of good and evil beyond simple Saturday morning cartoon logic.
Heretic astartes choose their leaders based on their abilities to lead and win battles just like any other military force. Not on how "evil" they are. Are they often subjectively evil? Yes, but that's not why they lead.
It must also be understood that most traitors don't see themselves as fighting for "evil" but instead fighting the hypocrisy of an Imperium they helped build and which they feel failed and abandoned them.
There is also the question of whether the traitor legions can be blamed for what they are. Many, like the Night Lords and World Eaters were created, by the Imperium's own Emperor, to be just the monsters that they are. Can you blame a tool for doing what it was designed for?
Of course they are more often than not the villains. Sometimes, however, the Imperium is portrayed as the villain. In either case understanding the villains for their logic and reasons for the things they do, however flawed, makes for better stories.
As well as the ability to see the question of good and evil beyond simple Saturday morning cartoon logic.
Heretic astartes choose their leaders based on their abilities to lead and win battles just like any other military force. Not on how "evil" they are. Are they often objectively evil? Yes, but that's not why they lead.
It must also be understood that most traitors don't see themselves as fighting for "evil" but instead fighting the hypocrisy of an Imperium they helped build and which they feel failed and abandoned them.
There is also the question of whether the traitor legions can be blamed for what they are. Many, like the Night Lords and World Eaters were created, by the Imperium's own Emperor, to be just the monsters that they are. Can you blame a tool for doing what it was designed for?
Of course they are more often than not the villains. Sometimes, however, the Imperium is portrayed as the villain. In either case understanding the villains for their logic and reasons for the things they do, however flawed, makes for better stories.
Or you can stick with He Man and Skeletor.
What even is “objectively evil”? How do you define evil objectively? I’m not being snide, I want to know.
As well as the ability to see the question of good and evil beyond simple Saturday morning cartoon logic.
Heretic astartes choose their leaders based on their abilities to lead and win battles just like any other military force. Not on how "evil" they are. Are they often objectively evil? Yes, but that's not why they lead.
It must also be understood that most traitors don't see themselves as fighting for "evil" but instead fighting the hypocrisy of an Imperium they helped build and which they feel failed and abandoned them.
There is also the question of whether the traitor legions can be blamed for what they are. Many, like the Night Lords and World Eaters were created, by the Imperium's own Emperor, to be just the monsters that they are. Can you blame a tool for doing what it was designed for?
Of course they are more often than not the villains. Sometimes, however, the Imperium is portrayed as the villain. In either case understanding the villains for their logic and reasons for the things they do, however flawed, makes for better stories.
Or you can stick with He Man and Skeletor.
What even is “objectively evil”? How do you define evil objectively? I’m not being snide, I want to know.
Sorry should have said "subjectively ". Will edit post. Please accept the apology of a poorly educated piece of Kentucky holler trash.
pm713 wrote: Even the idea that they're all evil is debatable. For example I would argue Orks aren't evil.
Are they immoral and wicked?
Well that depends on whose morality you use.
Plus they're literally engineered to need to fight all the time. Accusing an Ork of being evil is like saying a bee is evil for stinging you or that a dog that bites out of fear is evil.
Tyranids definitely aren't evil. They're a mind that feels almost nothing but horrible hunger instinctively seeking out food.
Every faction in the setting is evil, often to absurd levels. The point is that no one can really claim moral superiority when everyone casually does stuff that would make cartoon villains go "dude, that's too much." No one has to feel bad for playing the bad guys faction in this game because there are no good guys, so it's not like you had a choice.
Which one of the bad guy is the worse guy? Does it even matter? When everyone is awful, who cares who's the least or the most horrible? The best you can do is forget about morals and pick which flavor of horribleness you prefer:
- the imperium is the last, best and only chance for humanity! If you're a human, you have to root for them, obviously! - chaos are the only ones who enjoy true freedom (or that's what they think anyways).
- the orks have simple minds and don't do things out of malice, they just like to fight. That's their excuse and they're sticking to it.
- the eldar are an ancient, noble race who know better than everyone else because they're so ancient and noble.
- dark eldars are true individualists, they're the ultimate hedonists and just want to have fun. What's not to like about that? (Don't answer that question.)
- the tau are the only ones who care about you, citizen. As long as you help the Greater Good, of course. You wouldn't do something that isn't for the Greater Good, right?
- tyranids are beyond concepts of good and evil, so they're not evil. Q.E.D.
- necrons see anything that isn't necron as a pest. And there's nothing wrong with doing pest control, after all.
Amoral defaults to immoral for deontologists, as it lacks the good will that makes something objectively good.
It's also immoral for the ethics of care as amoral things don't care about ethical agents or subjects, and likewise moral agents care about their subjects and other agents - an amoral action shows an absence of care.
It's also virtually synonymous with evil for virtue ethicists as it is neither moral behaviour, nor a comfortable habit between extremes.
In theory it depends for consequentialists, but as the Trolley Problem is supposed to show, it's impossible to factor into any calculation of utility.
There is a massive misunderstanding of W40k lore by a community. Largely because GW didn't tried to push more reasonable Chaos and allowed their lazy writers use Chaos for their bolter porn media.
The simple thing is, Chaos somehow manages to fight Imperium on equal terms. Imperium is known to put heavy emphasis on production and servitude. They are essentially slaves, from lowest worker upwards to managers. They have little in terms of luxury or disposable income. Their lives are often solely focused on servitude either in toiling as machine in Adeptus Mechanicus manufactoriums or being recruited as cannon fodder for indifferent and cruel Imperium which sees field executions as a proper way to raise morale or to just instill fear for a sake of instilling fear. Such system might not be most efficient, intelligent, adaptable and many other things. What it is good for is making slaves (servants) who are amazing at being ruled and suffering all the hardships. In addition, it allows simply indecent amount of supplies being produced. This is actually how Imperium fights all its wars. It doesn't care about its loses. All it cares is about achieving at least a stalemate, because a stalemate is as good as won campaign for Imperium. Its obscene resources will always see that there is an army or two coming as mere reinforcements for attackers/defenders. So how Chaos can fight this if they can't function as society? How they can fight off determined, fanatical force with endless resources where even their demons do not exist (realspace)?
See? It is only logical that there should be a lot more subtlety to Chaos than most people know. Most lore at least hints at this. Demon world with civilian population? How it wasn't yet butchered by demons? Oh look, Grey knight mary sue. I wonder how realistically this time it will save the day! What I was thinking about? Oh, how Chaos had managed to research and construct new technologies? Like constructing entirely new types of weapons and class of ships which nothing in entire Imperium or pretty much galaxy can rival one on one? How Chaos posses technology to create craftworld level ships? Uhm? Look, Abaddon's arms just fell off! He is such a loser!
During Black Crusades they fly out of Eye of Terra, usually through most fortified areas in the galaxy and wages total war on galactic scale against Imperium.
Ernestas wrote: During Black Crusades they fly out of Eye of Terra, usually through most fortified areas in the galaxy and wages total war on galactic scale against Imperium.
The same Imperium that simultaneously fights Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Tau, rebels, Necrons and who knows how many minor Xenos. Chaos fights nowhere near as much and has vastly inferior resources.
Ernestas wrote: During Black Crusades they fly out of Eye of Terra, usually through most fortified areas in the galaxy and wages total war on galactic scale against Imperium.
And during each one Chaos eventually loses. They basically lash out and deal a bloody nasty blow to the Imperium, but they can't sustain a long term campaign.
This Chaos seems to work by a steady method of building up to a mass and then dealing a hard strike, aiming to cripple some part of the Imperium, not the whole beast. They then get beaten back, with the hope/expectation that their main target was destroyed beyond restoration; or at least to a point where restoration is expensive for the Imperium. The Imperiums resources are mindbogglingly huge, heck the Tau don't even believe that the Imperium is as big as the Imperials claim it to be. Chaos could never take it all on; so they whittle away at it.
Basically they are playing a super long game. Each Crusade deals harm and damage; this latest one is dealing perhaps some of the most powerful since its aim is to boldly try and slice the Imperium in half by taking a key travel location from them that links up two primary halves of the Imperium. Again they can't take it all on; so they are trying to cut it in half and create enough instability and, well, chaos that it might fragment or at least that some core areas have to deviate resources to fringe regions to maintain them.
Chaos are impressive and powerful, but they aren't as powerful as the whole Imperium. Of course the Imperium, by its very nature, also can't bring all of its power to one spot. Not only would it be an insane risk; but they also lack the organisational structure and they've other threats. As noted there's Tyranids sending huge fleets that smash tehir way to Space Marine homeworlds; there's Orks causing trouble on any world they see; there's Eldar doing sneaky stuff; there's the continual and steady expansion of Tau space and of Necrons waking up. There's Dark Eldar doing dark sneaky things. All this ontop of the Imperiums own internal power struggles and problems all layered atop Chaos and Genestealers all causing uprisings and turmoil on worlds.
As well as the ability to see the question of good and evil beyond simple Saturday morning cartoon logic.
Heretic astartes choose their leaders based on their abilities to lead and win battles just like any other military force. Not on how "evil" they are. Are they often subjectively evil? Yes, but that's not why they lead.
It must also be understood that most traitors don't see themselves as fighting for "evil" but instead fighting the hypocrisy of an Imperium they helped build and which they feel failed and abandoned them.
There is also the question of whether the traitor legions can be blamed for what they are. Many, like the Night Lords and World Eaters were created, by the Imperium's own Emperor, to be just the monsters that they are. Can you blame a tool for doing what it was designed for?
Of course they are more often than not the villains. Sometimes, however, the Imperium is portrayed as the villain. In either case understanding the villains for their logic and reasons for the things they do, however flawed, makes for better stories.
Or you can stick with He Man and Skeletor.
Disillusioned evil is still evil. Nor are sentient beings let off the hook for being 'tools'. ("I was just following orders!").
At some point, each Chaos Marine broke away from all pro-human-civilization institutions and decided that self-aggrandizement at the expense of othersis more important, aspecially if it came at the expense of human civilization.
Assuming, without deciding, that what you're saying is true when in fact it really only applies to *maybe* four or five established Legions/Renegade Chapters...
so what?
You're using a subjective POV to make that determination. It is necessarily subjective.
Objective morality is a myth. Aquinas is full of gak.
Excommunicatus wrote: Assuming, without deciding, that what you're saying is true when in fact it really only applies to *maybe* four or five established Legions/Renegade Chapters...
so what?
You're using a subjective POV to make that determination. It is necessarily subjective.
Objective morality is a myth. Aquinas is full of gak.
In 40k terms its easy. Daemons are minions of evil, and all Chaos legions feature posession, daemonic mutation, and desire to ascend to Daemon Prince immortality. Daemons being a direct result of corruption of purpose, they're all on the wrong side of the coin regardless of what they think or how they reason it.
Excommunicatus wrote: Assuming, without deciding, that what you're saying is true when in fact it really only applies to *maybe* four or five established Legions/Renegade Chapters...
so what?
You're using a subjective POV to make that determination. It is necessarily subjective.
Objective morality is a myth. Aquinas is full of gak.
In 40k terms its easy. Daemons are minions of evil, and all Chaos legions feature posession, daemonic mutation, and desire to ascend to Daemon Prince immortality. Daemons being a direct result of corruption of purpose, they're all on the wrong side of the coin regardless of what they think or how they reason it.
Most Night Lords reject or look down upon all the things you listed. So that kills your simplistic view of the legions with just one example. What about loyalists who use daemonic possession?(*cough*cough * Exorcists chapter).
My point is that this simplistic view of good and evil is booorrriiinnggg. Complicated villains are better than one note, "bwahahaha evil!" ones. Jared Leto's Joker? One note. Boring. Joaquin Phoenix or Heath Ledger's Joker? Complicated and interesting. The same is true for heroes. Would you prefer an interesting, well written hero, or a Mary Sue ?
Good lore portrays chaos as more multi faceted than simple mustache twirling evil.
Insectum7 wrote: ^I didn't say they were simple evil. I just said they were evil.
And Night Lords can have Possessed, Daemon Princes, Marked marines, etc. So maybe they're not as simple as YOU say.
Yes in the rules but we're talking lore. In the rules a plague marine becomes less of a plague marine as he advances in rank. In the rules a single guardsman can stop a land raider.
And evil is subjective. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
Rules and lore are still related. But I challenge you to find the piece of lore that says the ranks of the Night Lords don't include Possessed, Daemon Princes, or Chaos Marines with Marks.
Insectum7 wrote: Rules and lore are still related. But I challenge you to find the piece of lore that says the ranks of the Night Lords don't include Possessed, Daemon Princes, or Chaos Marines with Marks.
Yes many war bands include them. But they are generally looked down on and are used as weopons.
That's what you're not getting about many of the legions. Yes they use these things but not because they like them, but because they need them as weapons of war.
Chaos doesn't have the industrial power of the Imperium. So they use what they can against it. Would they rather have the weapons and technology they had in the Crusade and heresy instead of unreliable and unpredictable things like daemon engines or actual daemons? I'd say probably yes in many cases. But they don't have the industry or technology to produce them so they use what they can to wage war on their enemies. That doesn't mean they worship them necessarily.
Sometimes the ends justify the means. You're still thinking in Hollywood blockbuster terms.
If you want to think in game terms compare an executioner tank to a forge fiend. If heretic astartes had the ability to produce something like the executioner do you think they would instead continue to rely on things like the forge fiend instead because it's more "evil "?
Right. In their arrogance they think they can use daemons without being corrupted. And that's their downfall. That's the whole point. "I can stop whenever I want! I'm in total control!" They say as they start backstabbing each other, murder thousands of innocents to summon daemons, and watch their former squadmates get turned into Chaos Spawn. They're gone but they don't admit it to themselves because of their pride. "Bob got turned into spawn because he was weak! I'm better than that!". Our hero says as he makes even worse deals with daemons and slides further down the path to damnation, all the while raiding merchant vessels and murdering all on board for supplies, or butchering PDF to use in some ritual of power.
"I'm not evil, I instill terror and slaughter innocents out of necessity, man!"
Insectum7 wrote: Right. In their arrogance they think they can use daemons without being corrupted. And that's their downfall. That's the whole point. "I can stop whenever I want! I'm in total control!" They say as they start backstabbing each other, murder thousands of innocents to summon daemons, and watch their former squadmates get turned into Chaos Spawn. They're gone but they don't admit it to themselves because of their pride. "Bob got turned into spawn because he was weak! I'm better than that!". Our hero says as he makes even worse deals with daemons and slides further down the path to damnation, all the while raiding merchant vessels and murdering all on board for supplies, or butchering PDF to use in some ritual of power.
"I'm not evil, I instill terror and slaughter innocents out of necessity, man!"
Yes, just like the inquisitor who virus bombs an entire planet because of the presence of a single cult,the guard commander who hurls millions of his troops into pointless and unwinnable charges, the space marine chapter that forces its aspirants into being possessed by daemons to make them stronger, or the valiant Grey Knights who after a successful action murder all the innocents who were unlucky enough to see them. Or of course the daily sacrificing of thousands to feed the individual whose arrogance caused the whole fething mess in the first place.
I think you might be getting it.
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Excommunicatus wrote: They're evil if you adopt wholesale the subjective morality of the IoM.
They're not if you adopt the subjective morality of Chaos.
I never said the Imperium isn't evil. But to suggest that Chaos isn't? When they're working alongside/worshipping the chaos gods? Yeahhh, that's a hard sell.
Ok so here's a question: Can you come up with an example of a Chaos Marine force protecting innocents without any ulterior motive? And I don't mean deciding not to slaughter them that day. I mean going out of their way to protect innocents? Because much of the Imperiums evil comes from either incompetence, or being over-zealously protective in a grim calculation sort of way. (Like murdering a planet full of people so no taint of chaos can spread).
This is a really interesting question and chat. it makes me think that one of the big challenges with the Imperium, and maybe even part of the human condition, is a lack of self-awareness about cause and effect. It seems no one in the Imperium every really acknowledges that by creating a miserable society they are partly responsible for making chaos more attractive. It's something you see in businesses all the time - leadership refusing to acknowledge that circumstances they have created are causing problems.
One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.
Bran Dawri wrote: One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.
Bran Dawri wrote: One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.
^Exactly.
Exactly? Then doesn't this also describe the Imperium? Do they not pave the road to hell with their good intentions as well? The Imperium commits evil in the name of good all the time.
Remember evil is subjective and there are no good guys in 40k.
There are better and worse guys though. The Imperium, for all it's flaws is still functioning on the principle of the survival of humankind. The goal of the Chaos gods is basically eternal strife for everybody, because thats how they derive their power.
Bran Dawri wrote: One thing a lot of people seem to forget is that some Legions, or their commanders may have fallen for good reasons, or at least fell with the best interests of mankind at heart, but that after 10,000 years those reasons are no longer relevant.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, after all, but once you arrive there, what set you on the path, and who you were then is no longer what keeps you going or who you are.
^Exactly.
Exactly? Then doesn't this also describe the Imperium? Do they not pave the road to hell with their good intentions as well? The Imperium commits evil in the name of good all the time.
Remember evil is subjective and there are no good guys in 40k.
Eh. Evil is only subjective up to a point.
If someone is murderraping populations to get a pair of wings so they can murderrape for eternity, there isn't any room for 'From my perspective, the Jedi are evil' discussions.
'The Imperium also does evil things' doesn't somehow tip the moral scales in a way that this becomes confusing or unclear.
Support for Chaos becomes very easy (for humans) if you get even a modicum of understanding of how the Warp works. Once you realize that the line about finding peace with the Emperor after death is pure horse puckey, and that the afterlife for human beings is an eternity of being torn asunder in the psychic agony of the Warp, it's pretty easy to see Chaos as being the only viable alternative. Because, for most people, it is.
Jimsolo wrote: Support for Chaos becomes very easy (for humans) if you get even a modicum of understanding of how the Warp works. Once you realize that the line about finding peace with the Emperor after death is pure horse puckey, and that the afterlife for human beings is an eternity of being torn asunder in the psychic agony of the Warp, it's pretty easy to see Chaos as being the only viable alternative. Because, for most people, it is.
I think I remember something about human souls not being strong enough to remain "coherent" after death. Basically if you're human, your soul dissolves into the warp immediately when you die, so there's not much of an "eternal torment." There's no "sit by the Emperor's side" either, but that's another matter.
Jimsolo wrote: Support for Chaos becomes very easy (for humans) if you get even a modicum of understanding of how the Warp works. Once you realize that the line about finding peace with the Emperor after death is pure horse puckey, and that the afterlife for human beings is an eternity of being torn asunder in the psychic agony of the Warp, it's pretty easy to see Chaos as being the only viable alternative. Because, for most people, it is.
I think I remember something about human souls not being strong enough to remain "coherent" after death. Basically if you're human, your soul dissolves into the warp immediately when you die, so there's not much of an "eternal torment." There's no "sit by the Emperor's side" either, but that's another matter.
Well yes but no.
See, faith may be strong enough to actually bring about such a place due to the nature of the warp.
Ernestas wrote: During Black Crusades they fly out of Eye of Terra, usually through most fortified areas in the galaxy and wages total war on galactic scale against Imperium.
The same Imperium that simultaneously fights Chaos, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Tau, rebels, Necrons and who knows how many minor Xenos. Chaos fights nowhere near as much and has vastly inferior resources.
Imperium usually prioritizes like it did with Damocles crusade. In lore there are plenty of remarks that Imperium can't spare any resources to any other threat due to Black Crusades.
Chaos are impressive and powerful, but they aren't as powerful as the whole Imperium. Of course the Imperium, by its very nature, also can't bring all of its power to one spot. Not only would it be an insane risk; but they also lack the organisational structure and they've other threats. As noted there's Tyranids sending huge fleets that smash tehir way to Space Marine homeworlds; there's Orks causing trouble on any world they see; there's Eldar doing sneaky stuff; there's the continual and steady expansion of Tau space and of Necrons waking up. There's Dark Eldar doing dark sneaky things. All this ontop of the Imperiums own internal power struggles and problems all layered atop Chaos and Genestealers all causing uprisings and turmoil on worlds.
Chaos soaks up majority of Imperial resources during major Black Crusades. It fights in most fortified and reinforced regions in the galaxy. How many times Cadia was on a very brink of destruction before? How many sectors were besieged and defenders spread thin? We are talking about taking a galactic level empire. It has simply insane industrial and manpower resources. If Chaos is capable of seriously threatening its key strategic regions despite Imperium trying its best to fortify them, it says something about how well Chaos operates. It is not like winning a battle, winning such war requires simply apocalyptic level of resources. Fuel for ship, vehicles. Ammo in the billions. Troops in millions. Where you get food for those troops? Who supplies those troops with weapons? Who keeps those troops in line and organizes them into effective force? Who supplies and repairs Chaos armada? Who continues to supply Chaos troops on a ground? Logistics at such galactic scale are immense. I by no means say that Chaos excels at this aspect, I'm just pointing out that in order to wage war on such massive scale you need more than a loosely organized band of raiders. You need immense organization and logistical chain back at home which is impossible to accomplish if your forge world is running on empty threats and intimidation and your demons keep killing every mortal on sight. And during the Long War during many Black Crusades, not all of them were just meant to raid and to steal something. This only became more and more important as Black Crusades continued to grow in scale and ambition. Chaos did not self-destroyed as most Imperial thinkers thought. It survived in Eye of Terror and it kept growing for 10 thousand years until during its first attempt to break through into real space and brake Imperium apart, it almost succeeded if not for medling of those damn children! Resurrecting Pappa smurf and all this nonsense.
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Insectum7 wrote: I never said the Imperium isn't evil. But to suggest that Chaos isn't? When they're working alongside/worshipping the chaos gods? Yeahhh, that's a hard sell.
Ok so here's a question: Can you come up with an example of a Chaos Marine force protecting innocents without any ulterior motive? And I don't mean deciding not to slaughter them that day. I mean going out of their way to protect innocents? Because much of the Imperiums evil comes from either incompetence, or being over-zealously protective in a grim calculation sort of way. (Like murdering a planet full of people so no taint of chaos can spread).
I do not think that discussion here is about Imperium being evil and Chaos good. I believe that people here are arguing that there isn't an essential difference between Chaos and Imperium in terms of evilness.
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Insectum7 wrote: There are better and worse guys though. The Imperium, for all it's flaws is still functioning on the principle of the survival of humankind. The goal of the Chaos gods is basically eternal strife for everybody, because thats how they derive their power.
Ironically, it is Chaos who represents humanity's salvation. In lore it is remarked quite often that in Chaos humanity is stronger than in Order. This is because that instead average citizen being emotionless and powerless, Chaos promotes self-strength and development. This results in hardy populations which produces hardy warriors. Just look civilized vs uncivilized societies in our world. Constant war, competition and ambition is that makes Chaos stronger. Its unashamed nature and promotion of emotion and human feelings of all kind is that makes them unmatched. Human emotion is that tore galaxy apart and as side effect saved thousands of worlds from depravity of xenos. How now Tyranids will nom nom those planets if writers are not idiots? In a same manner, Chaos is invested into evolution of mankind and this psychic awakening was direct cause of our devotion to Chaos. It had made humanity so much greater and powerful than it would had been otherwise. Now with mere word we can summon legions of demons to help us and with a gesture of our hand we can send Carnifexes flying into a sky. This is the true pinnacle of human form and whatever you like it or not, Chaos had helped humanity to evolve to its next form as a race.
Personally, I want to view Chaos in complex and mature fashion. W40k often suffers from writers not knowing what they are doing and writing nonsensical Dragon Ball Z stuff. It pains me to see these new closet marines. It pains me to see Chaos portrayed as "Muahaha, lets be super evil!" without ever exploring it deeper. In time it creates extreme logical fallacies like I had mentioned before. If Chaos is just super evil and murderrapping each other all the time, who is then running the economy of Chaos? It is hard to mine raw ore when your slaves are constantly murdered by demons you know. Even if we ignore all these societal aspects of asking how the feth mortals can give birth to a child and that child reaching adulthood, we still have answer question of why Chaos warriors do not murder each other during sometimes even centuries long down time?
I want to see Chaos as survival of the strongest. Of humans being unashamed of who they are. Of society which puts individual first over state (which is very opposite in our world where good = law, bad = disobeying law). Where Chaos merely promotes emotion from humans, wanting them to live their lives to the fullest, experiencing rage, excess, ambition and all other emotions where Imperium seeks to destroy those emotions in a bleak industrial machines where each person is just a meaningless cog of vast Imperium. Chaos to me promotes individuality, life, freedom, personal virtues where Imperium for me represents order. It is obedience, servitude, sacrifice for others, acceptance of one's faith. W40k and Chaos offers me escape from reality which starts to grind my gears of state becoming ever more intrusive in one's personal life. Where court and justice system is more keen in regulation one's behavior, traditions, views through punishment, jail and other penalties when they have no right to do that outside self declared rights. Where I see other people nodding like little drones and obeying government without a second thought. People are little sheep, if it is illegal, it is evil and bad. They seemingly become just slaves to government, to corporate world and raises false idols and Gods which look innocent at first glance, but in truth are incredibly intrusive into one's life. They can't think for themselves anymore. They can't stand up for themselves anymore. Hit a person and you are going to jail while that person can do whatever in psychological violence he inflicts upon you. I live in a nation which transforms itself into a western nation with its morals, culture and ideology. I lived during this transition period of Soviet culture which is far more barbaric and self reliant and it just pains me to see this transformation into what essentially I see as Imperium. If this world would be W40k, I would have my heretical cult and would work overthrowing Imperial officials on this planet. I believe in Gods, I played with occult during my life and I possess extremely developed inner world. I would be a rogue psyker who is quietly hidden in a small room, slowly working towards ending Imperial rule on this world by trying to summon divine help.
What you 'want' to see doesn't match up with what's written.
Ironically, it is Chaos who represents humanity's salvation. In lore it is remarked quite often that in Chaos humanity is stronger than in Order. This is because that instead average citizen being emotionless and powerless, Chaos promotes self-strength and development. This results in hardy populations which produces hardy warriors. Just look civilized vs uncivilized societies in our world. Constant war, competition and ambition is that makes Chaos stronger. Its unashamed nature and promotion of emotion and human feelings of all kind is that makes them unmatched. Human emotion is that tore galaxy apart and as side effect saved thousands of worlds from depravity of xenos. How now Tyranids will nom nom those planets if writers are not idiots? In a same manner, Chaos is invested into evolution of mankind and this psychic awakening was direct cause of our devotion to Chaos. It had made humanity so much greater and powerful than it would had been otherwise. Now with mere word we can summon legions of demons to help us and with a gesture of our hand we can send Carnifexes flying into a sky. This is the true pinnacle of human form and whatever you like it or not, Chaos had helped humanity to evolve to its next form as a race.
Personally, I want to view Chaos in complex and mature fashion. W40k often suffers from writers not knowing what they are doing and writing nonsensical Dragon Ball Z stuff.
I really hate to tell you this, but that first paragraph is pure DBZ stuff, not complex and mature.
Constant struggle doesn't result in hardy populations with hardy 'warriors.' It results in widespread misery and feeble and ineffective societies and people. The healthiest societies are civilized, organized and lean heavily on tech to be successful.
There is no 'we' throwing carnifexes around. There are a handful of powerful individuals on both sides capable of that, and devotion to chaos is not a deciding factor.
The last paragraph I'm just going to skip, because you're intermixing fantasy background and real world politics in a way that's fairly disturbing to see.
I didn't read the entire topic so I might just say something somebody already said but I have a soft spot for Abaddon as he enlight, in my opinion, what heretic astartes kinda mean for me in the W40K universe.
SM are soldiers, but they also have a perticular position in the 30K society : they are the incarnation of a higher genetical development of the human race in comparaison to normal human, they have a higher life span, and they feel like they share blood relations with other SM, their primarchs and the emperor. In addition, they also shed blood to expand the empire : they are effectively the aristocrats of the old regime society, a cast of people bound by blood, honor and custom that feel their higher level in the social hierarchy is justified by their activity, by the fact that they protect the entirety of the society.
The decisions of the emperor after the triumph at Ullanor are felt by many space marines, and by people like Horus, as a form betrayal, because de facto the Emperor wants this social hierarchy to crumble so that humanity, the people that SM feel are below them, take the total control of their lives. And this conflict, other the custom and the social hierarchy that the SM incarnate and the one that the Emperor envision is still present in 40K throughout a few short stories.
Eat the psykers, make better psykers and repeat. That's what Tyranids do. Why are you so insistent that all psykers are mega strong killers? Hundreds die from being shanked in alleys or set on fire by mobs. Powerful human psykers aren't the norm.
Ayuh, morality is subjective right up until you decide to pretend it becomes objective because reasons.
"All crimes should be treasured if they give you pleasure somehow" is not a statement that can be shown to be objectively false.
Why is the burden of proof on us to prove the negative though?
Can that statement be shown to be objectively true? Are you making an argument from ignorance that since it cannot be proved as false, then it must be true?
'Cause you're the ones arguing that objective morality exists.
If you want to argue strict burdens, mine is discharged entirely by raising anything that reasonably disputes the claim. It is then your burden to overcome. Mine is only evidential, yours is 'legal'.
Meaning you must show it to objectively false. Which you cannot. And so your argument fails.
'Cause objective morality is a myth and Aquinas talks out of his arse.
Excommunicatus wrote: 'Cause you're the ones arguing that objective morality exists.
If you want to argue strict burdens, mine is discharged entirely by raising anything that reasonably disputes the claim. It is then your burden to overcome. Mine is only evidential, yours is 'legal'.
Meaning you must show it to objectively false. Which you cannot. And so your argument fails.
'Cause objective morality is a myth and Aquinas talks out of his arse.
I never made any such argument about "objective morality" though, so I don't grasp just what you are accusing me of exactly.
Could anyone prove that anything objectively exists? As a pseudo-Kantian, I'd argue that no, we cannot, all we ever have are phenomena, not noumena. We have no way to even conceive of what the thing-in-itself is, or would be, let alone to discover it as a matter of facts.
Despite that, I think it is rather reductive to then say there is no morality at all, or that since we cannot have true "objectivity" in-itself, we have nothing but subjective whims all of which are equal to each other. Sure they are all subjective, but not all equal teleologically, to say the least.
Excommunicatus wrote: Then I'm really not sure why you responded to me or why you're interjecting at this point.
No, we can't. We have only our own experiences, processed by an inherently unreliable machine.
Join me next week where I prove that freedom is neither desirable nor possible.
I am just point out that while their claim of an objective truth cannot be proven, your claim of an objective falsity is also unprovable.
In other words, we are right back where we started, all we've done is canceled out the "objective" stance of each position. However, I don't really buy your notion that experience, or empiricism, is or, would be, "all we have." I'm willing to drop it though, since it seems doubtful you are interesting in a discussion, but rather just you explaining to me how and why I'm wrong in anything I'd say.
Excommunicatus wrote: Yes, that's the point. Because objective morality doesn't exist.
You must necessarily approach it from your subjective moral POV.
I'm not trying to be snarky, apologies that it's coming across that way.
Well, there isn't any way to know, if I follow my understanding of the Kantian paradigm through. We can't say if objective morality exists, or doesn't. So, we can't really justify anything based off this, since it's not something knowable. Or, so it would seem to me.
So, all we can access is the subjective moral criteria and then we are going to need some manner to evaluate things from there. It just seems to be that having the buck stop at "morality is subjective, Q.E.D" really doesn't get us anywhere. We are just right where we started with nothing to show for it.
Then again, maybe I don't actually have a point. It seems to me there is an important distinction to be made, but perhaps I am wrong about that, or perhaps I don't have the ability to do so.
Well, I agree that it doesn't really get us anywhere if the objective is to hash out a philosophical treatise.
For a thread on a forum about toy soldiers, and for the topic this has evolved into, I rather think it suffices though. It is enough to say that subjective morality is all we have. Exploring the wider implications of that are probably beyond the scope of the thread.
I'm going to present historic Chaos warriors. These are pagan warriors raiding settlements. Song attracts me, because it symbolizes strength, freedom, simplicity. It promotes strong men who are unafraid to fight for their place on this Earth. If we consider that Gods would be real, there isn't much difference between barbaric warriors of the past and Chaos tribes except that miracles would happen a lot more often and their devotion would actually be rewarded. I do not know why others are not impressed. Few warriors going to face entire armies on their own. Forces of order being too feeble to overpower few chosen warriors of Chaos who manages to withhold an entire tide of enemy forces? You know that is the most beautiful thing in this? It is the end game. It is what you were trying to achieve your entire life. It is what you dreamed for. It is living your dream. The best thing of all of this is that you are going to attract gaze of your God and he is going to reward you for all eternity for your actions in live. You are going to literal promised heaven while all the civilized men who pretend to be o'so superior to you have their souls withered away and are very unlikely to receive same reward as they are atheistic scum. Ecclesiarchy is a huge factor, but not nearly all people are truly religious in Imperium nor God Emperor promises anything to them for their servitude in life. Well, besides of being eaten alive and you think Slaanesh was bad?
I see it genuinely beautiful and we have a lot of glorification of Chaos in our culture. These are two examples which easily can be considered as made for Khorne warriors. Such a simple life. You strive to become greatest warrior land ever had known. With your strength you vanquish your foes. Earn gold, slaves, women, power, whatever your heart desires. Most importantly, you go to Khorne's side when you die as for all mighty warriors who die faithful to Gods of old awaits eternal paradise in halls of Valhalla where you shall feast, sleep and fight for all eternity. See? Doesn't pagan faith seems just as thinly disguised Khorne worship? In fact warhammer as most western works draws heavy inspiration from Christianity. Christians perceive pagans as evil thus it is Chaos. Their belief system is practically ripped off and presented as more evil, spikey version in Warhammer. Don't be surprised, Bible is in similar way plagiarised.
Spoiler:
[Onward into the heart of the battle Fought the sons of Odin Outnumbered many times Still, they fought on Blood poured forth from their wounds Deep into the earth Vultures waited for the broken shells That once were bodies But Odin alone would choose the day They would enter Valhalla And in their hour of need He sent forth onto them, The Berserker Rage Now gods and men They rose up from the ground Screaming like wild animals Such is the gift of absolute power No blade or weapon would hurt them They killed men and horses alike And all who stood before them died that day Hail Gods Of War]
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Darkness flees the rising sun The village lies ahead It will wake to a new day soon Soon they'll all be dead We came in cover of moonless night Fifty men at arms Now at first morning light, The church bell sounds the alarm Sacrifice to Gods of old Bleed them of their lives Fresh blood on our swords Gods Of War Arise! Sacrifice to Gods of old Bleed them of their lives Fresh blood on our swords Gods Of War Arise! Hear the tortured screams Shattering the air They awake from soothing dreams Into their worst nightmare Fire sweeps their homes They feel the dragon's breath Consuming and destructive flames Agonising death Some seek shelter in the church A refuge for those with faith But we know how to smoke them out A pyre will be raised But those who choose to stand and fight Will die with dignity For the unfortunate few who survive Waits a life in slavery The day draws to an end The night comes dark and cold We return to our ships With silver, slaves and gold We gave them agony, as they fell and died The Gods have granted victory For our sacrifice *solo Mikkonen* The day draws to an end The night comes dark and cold We return to our ships With silver, slaves and gold We gave them agony, as they fell and died The Gods have granted victory For our sacrifice
Don't think either that it is just I who try to make Chaos presentable. In fact, it is VERY desirable and attractive. Our society used to dream about Chaos worship and it could again if someone would spark that faith again. Humanity is starved for Chaos. In current age where man are emasculated, stripped of their purpose and made subservient. We need something to look up as our masculine ideal. There is nothing more masculine or pure than warriors of Khorne. Here is a very popular image of such warrior:
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Do you recognize the artwork? It is Conan the Barbarian. This picture sells an idea of man achieving his desires through becoming a great warrior. Through strength of arms, becoming strong enough to defend himself and ones he adores and vanquishing his foes. It is through these virtues man is considered successful and sexualized. It speaks to our primal nature. To protect women, to mate. It speaks to our bloodlust and joy of fighting. It is all who we are and it is all who we need to strive to become. See the subtle touches in this image. Look closely to a wall, do you see a skull? Here, heretical propaganda is subtly presented into our culture. It can mean just a painting, but more likely it is a warrior who had purged evil and it is Khorne's demons dancing between reality and unreality. Observing and judging soul of this great warrior. Few more images like this and Inquisitor will have to declare Exterminatus on planet Earth! Seriously though, Chaos is in fact very attractive. It is what GW and writers have no clue what it is or how to make it presentable. They write them as villains and bad guys instead of trying to comprehend Chaos as an idea. Rather than first trying to make people fall in love with it, they instead present most extreme depravities of it and when pretend that it is all just like that. Writers and GW make parody of their work and they do not know what they are doing with their IP in this regard and they need help.
Ernestas wrote: Seriously though, Chaos is in fact very attractive. It is what GW and writers have no clue what it is or how to make it presentable. They write them as villains and bad guys instead of trying to comprehend Chaos as an idea. Rather than first trying to make people fall in love with it, they instead present most extreme depravities of it and when pretend that it is all just like that. Writers and GW make parody of their work and they do not know what they are doing with their IP in this regard and they need help.
'Chaos as presented is not attractive, but Chaos, if I imagine it as Conan and other things that it is not, is very attractive.'
Conan is the purity of the uncivilised man against the deceit and weakness of the civilised men. He has a strong sense of justice and morality- to him morality is not some unknowable subjective that allows man to commit atrocities as needed. Specifically Crom is a non interventionist god who inspires /values valour and courage, Khorne has no need for them- only bloodshed. Khorne gives you bladed tentacles and horns so you can murder more people.
The civilised men are the moral relativists who would, through their mental wrangling and self justifications accept Chaos. Indeed- Conan versus cultists worshipping a dark god or monstrous beast is such a ready mental image, I'm surprised you brought him up at all.
Khorne
Tzeentch
The evil maw/skull you drew attention to is in opposition to Conan, and represents the dragon mouthed tombs of evil, filled with chaos worshippers that he inevitably enters to kill the threat or rescue the woman.
Specifically, Conan in 40k would be/is a loyalist Space Marine, though from a chapter which values its independence from the Imperium and recognises the flawed nature of the Imperium. The chapter would wander, righting wrongs, butchering xenos armies and extinguishing cults of chaos.
Conan is the purity of the uncivilised man against the deceit and weakness of the civilised men.
Exactly, Chaos worshipper fighting against depravities of Order. It fits this narrative as a glove.
He has a strong sense of justice and morality- to him morality is not some unknowable subjective that allows man to commit atrocities as needed.
Again, this is precise philosophy of Khorne. This philosophy and view on life is often found among many pagan warriors. You can call it Odin, Khorne. These are mere details. That is more important that worshippers of corpse Emperor stands polar opposite of those values. Emperor did not had those morals. Imperium is not based on this morality. Sense of justice? Morality in Imperium?
Specifically Crom is a non interventionist god who inspires /values valour and courage
That is an exact description of Khorne. Khorne wants his worshippers to earn their strength and to fight their duels fair. He sees no honor in killing the weak or using trickery to win your battles. He despises cravens and ones who hide behind their pretensions. A bureaucrat who uses his paperwork to fight his own battles. A clergyman who uses his authority to abuse for personal gain, politician who tells you lies to get ahead. Psyker who is too feeble to win by himself. Khorne looks down on all of these people and respects ones who fight their own battles themselves. Courage and valour are warrior virtues and thus, they are Khorne's virtues which he expects of his followers.
Khorne has no need for them- only bloodshed. Khorne gives you bladed tentacles and horns so you can murder more people.
Uhm, no that is not it. I was talking for past several pages at how people tend to look Chaos in extremely simplistic terms to the point their own setting becomes a parody. Like I asked so many times before, how Chaos can wage war against galactic level empire if they keep murdering each other all the time? This is what I dislike about W40k lore, writers keep writing silly stuff failing to realize how great of a setting they have. They start believing nonsense they read and does not realize that history is written by the victors. So it is natural that Imperium vilifies Chaos and same is true vice versa. Imperium is vilified by Chaos. So does it mean that Imperium is all what Chaos says it is and there is nothing contrary to what statement, position?
The civilised men are the moral relativists who would, through their mental wrangling and self justifications accept Chaos.
This is why Conan is not a representative of Order. He serves Chaos, because to Chaos, morality is absolute. Only Imperial maggots can murder an entire world and call it good. Only they can enslave, torture and exploit while calling it good, greatness and civilization. This is what it means to be a civilized man. To commit a genocide and call it good. We do it in our world quite casually and nobody is bothered by it. This what it means to be a civilized moral relativist. Your comic doesn't prove anything, but it does prove what I was saying. A warrior vanquishing his foes by the virtue of his strength.
I wanted to share another song with everybody. This is about ancient pagan beliefs. Listen and see how disturbingly similar it is to what Khorne offers his followers. This is actually what men in the past fought for. They had believed that Gods are watching them and that their souls will be judged like that. This is same with Chaos, in death your soul will be judged and faithful will be accepted to their God's domain. Faithless scum will be tossed aside into the wastes as no God will claim their souls. These wandering souls will become Furies. https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Fury
Ernestas wrote: Do you recognize the artwork? It is Conan the Barbarian. This picture sells an idea of man achieving his desires through becoming a great warrior. Through strength of arms, becoming strong enough to defend himself and ones he adores and vanquishing his foes. It is through these virtues man is considered successful and sexualized. It speaks to our primal nature. To protect women, to mate. It speaks to our bloodlust and joy of fighting. It is all who we are and it is all who we need to strive to become. See the subtle touches in this image. Look closely to a wall, do you see a skull? Here, heretical propaganda is subtly presented into our culture. It can mean just a painting, but more likely it is a warrior who had purged evil and it is Khorne's demons dancing between reality and unreality. Observing and judging soul of this great warrior. Few more images like this and Inquisitor will have to declare Exterminatus on planet Earth! Seriously though, Chaos is in fact very attractive. It is what GW and writers have no clue what it is or how to make it presentable. They write them as villains and bad guys instead of trying to comprehend Chaos as an idea. Rather than first trying to make people fall in love with it, they instead present most extreme depravities of it and when pretend that it is all just like that. Writers and GW make parody of their work and they do not know what they are doing with their IP in this regard and they need help.
That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.
Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.
He has a strong sense of justice and morality- to him morality is not some unknowable subjective that allows man to commit atrocities as needed.
Again, this is precise philosophy of Khorne. This philosophy and view on life is often found among many pagan warriors. You can call it Odin, Khorne. These are mere details. That is more important that worshippers of corpse Emperor stands polar opposite of those values. Emperor did not had those morals. Imperium is not based on this morality. Sense of justice? Morality in Imperium?
Specifically Crom is a non interventionist god who inspires /values valour and courage
That is an exact description of Khorne. Khorne wants his worshippers to earn their strength and to fight their duels fair. He sees no honor in killing the weak or using trickery to win your battles. He despises cravens and ones who hide behind their pretensions. A bureaucrat who uses his paperwork to fight his own battles. A clergyman who uses his authority to abuse for personal gain, politician who tells you lies to get ahead. Psyker who is too feeble to win by himself. Khorne looks down on all of these people and respects ones who fight their own battles themselves. Courage and valour are warrior virtues and thus, they are Khorne's virtues which he expects of his followers.
Khorne has no need for them- only bloodshed. Khorne gives you bladed tentacles and horns so you can murder more people.
Uhm, no that is not it. I was talking for past several pages at how people tend to look Chaos in extremely simplistic terms to the point their own setting becomes a parody. Like I asked so many times before, how Chaos can wage war against galactic level empire if they keep murdering each other all the time? This is what I dislike about W40k lore, writers keep writing silly stuff failing to realize how great of a setting they have. They start believing nonsense they read and does not realize that history is written by the victors. So it is natural that Imperium vilifies Chaos and same is true vice versa. Imperium is vilified by Chaos. So does it mean that Imperium is all what Chaos says it is and there is nothing contrary to what statement, position?
So again, 'stop reading chaos as written and start imagining what I would like it to be.'
Blood Thirsters, Blood letters, Flesh hounds. Crom has none of these, but these are the daemonic footsoldiers of Khorne, who invade the material world and commit atrocities. They don't pop in for martial honour's sake or to satisfy the demands of justice.
Khorne Berzerkers, not Khorne Justicars.
Lord of Skulls, not Lord of Courage.
Again, Khorne in Hyboria is called the stag god and Conan is opposed to his cultists.
The civilised men are the moral relativists who would, through their mental wrangling and self justifications accept Chaos.
This is why Conan is not a representative of Order. He serves Chaos, because to Chaos, morality is absolute. Only Imperial maggots can murder an entire world and call it good. Only they can enslave, torture and exploit while calling it good, greatness and civilization. This is what it means to be a civilized man. To commit a genocide and call it good. We do it in our world quite casually and nobody is bothered by it. This what it means to be a civilized moral relativist. Your comic doesn't prove anything, but it does prove what I was saying. A warrior vanquishing his foes by the virtue of his strength.
'Your comic, showing a khornate daemon/cult fighting Conan doesn't prove anything. Conan is a dyed in the wool khorne cultist, honest.'
Conan is an advocate of the natural order, to which chaos is perversion.
The death of words for the Imperium is always portrayed as necessary evil in the face of supernatural corruption (chaos)
Murdering a world for Khorne gets you employee of the month.
The way I see the dichotomy of Chaos vs. Not-Chaos is this:
On the one hand, you can spend your entire life slaving away in ignorance, filth, and wretched conditions, being used and abused until you're nothing more than a useless husk to be discarded and forgotten. You will never know glory. You will never know power. You will never be anything more than a microscopic cog in an inconceivably vast machine, and you will die unknown and unimportant.
OR
You can worship Chaos and have all of the above probably be true - BUT - you have a tiny, tiny chance to be something incredible. Something monstrous and magnificent, something everyone else calls "evil." You may not be good, you may not be moral, but you'll be noticed. You'll matter. And to some people, that's more important than being "good," which is an inherently subjective societal construct anyway.
That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.
Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.
I disagree. Chaos is about promoting true nature of mankind which we keep oppressed. For example, this constant frustration and hatred towards your boss. You pretend to be civil and meek while in truth you want nothing, but to harm him. This is Chaos. It promotes our true nature whatever it might be. The state of affairs today is a direct result of the Emperor, because it had pushed humanity to being at its worst by trying to subjugate it to his will. His actions had started over 10 millenia of endless tyranny and oppression where men did evil things to each other which in turn promoted other men who were at receiving end to become worst than them in order to fight back. Before the Emperor Chaos wasn't like this. Chaos worlds weren't like this. Emperor could spend months on Chaos world and have no clue where he is at. Primarchs could spend years with their legions going over bureaucratic nonsense in trying to make planet compliant and non would be all the wiser until whole planet declare total war on Imperial forces and tries to blow up their fleet and primarch.
Chaos which you had described is nonsense. Otherwise, how Chaos would not consume itself? Everyone would just butcher everyone before they could raise first Black Crusade against Imperium. It is same thing with Dark eldar. How Commorah can exist without those elves torturing and murdering on a spot? Reading w40k literature and listening to audio books gives great insight into inner working of those ''evil'' forces.
Your comic, showing a khornate daemon/cult fighting Conan doesn't prove anything. Conan is a dyed in the wool khorne cultist, honest.'
Conan is an advocate of the natural order, to which chaos is perversion.
The death of words for the Imperium is always portrayed as necessary evil in the face of supernatural corruption (chaos)
Murdering a world for Khorne gets you employee of the month.
Those demons are merely representation of Khorne's rage. They are also demonic combat forms optimized for murder and slaughter. They are tools to be used for war, nothing more.
As for Chaos itself, Chaos is the natural state of being for humanity. It is its base emotions and instincts promoted over what we call civilization. Modern world is anything, but unnatural. Weak men lording over you due to being in different social class. Man being grinded away in massive state complex. Your labors are being taken away by government and its taxation. You have no personal rights. Your children can be taken away. You can be dragged into a war. You can be forced to leave your house. You can't own land. Entire life you are forced to procrastinate before fools. First it is dancing around your teachers and professors, pretending to care over their nonsense which you know will not help you in a least in real world. Then procrastinating yourself to your boss and his nonsense. All the while being marked and tracked all your life by Google and being owned by oligarchs via massive debts. What we have today and by extension in W40k is not natural state of being for humanity. In the end, I think it is rich when you complain about Chaos murdering an entire planet of their enemies. Why are you so keen to forget that Imperium is all too eager to murder an entire planet of their citizens just because there is few heretics on a planet?
How does it make feel? If this would be W40k and I would be a rogue psyker with heretical cult and Inquisition would know for certain that I exist and what danger I'm, but would not have any leads, how do you feel about being murdered because of me? Imagine modern Earth being slaughtered by your very Imperium you serve just because a dude which you never heard about just lives in some god forsaken corner of your world. When you put this into perspective, why does Chaos is so much worse than Imperium?
Oh come on, people aren't naturally brutes who only want to beat up other brutes. There is such a thing as empathy. Being nice to other people feels nice. Several religions have been founded on that idea. The entire concept of democracy is to avoid having a few people bossing around the rest of the people. The fact that it doesn't work as well as it should doesn't change the fact that people saw what you call the "natural state" of humanity and decided it sucked for 99% of the population and seriously needed changing.
If chaos was running the galaxy, it wouldn't be a better place. The weak would be slaves just as much as in the Imperium, they only would have a different master.
I do not say that Chaos is better than Imperium. I say why someone could sympathize with it. Strong rising to rule over weak is natural order of things. I personally despise weak people in life. I personally despise how modern world sees you as a worker in its own industry. I personally despise an idea of order where good = obeying law. I despise that we are made into nothing more than cogs who can't have their own agency, desires, ambitions. Where society judges you and decides what you can or cannot be. I despise arbitrary rules and baby sitting which modern state has. For me, more brutal world where my personal virtues would matter over nonsensical meritocracy of today or one of Imperium's is a lot more attractive. This is why to me an idea of Chaos is actually attractive. It is an escape from modern society and its ever increasing hold over individual. It is being unashamed for what you are. It is about promoting your own individuality over submission to what our worlds tells you need to be.
Even if life isn't much better serving either way, I don't think there is any essential difference to say that Imperium is better than Chaos. You will be toiling as insignificant cog for all your life to uncaring Imperium and be discarded the moment you become useless. It is long grind of your body and soul. In Chaos you are put into to toil as a slave for all your life. Is there truly a difference? In Imperium, you can join guard and be bullied by drill sergants and commissars, receive gakky food, not enough rest and be sent to die under orders of some incompetent commander for nothing. As a slave you can start some gak with rest of your more rowdy slaves and for successful rebellion be recruited into ranks of Chaos soldiers, militia, overseers. If you are worker in Imperium, you might as well decide to start some gak and become heretic. Chaos rewards deeds like betrayal and you most likely have a place in new world order afterwards. Death to me seems like poultry thing when you consider that an alternative is long life gruelling servitude to uncaring Imperium which aligns itself with creatures like Adeptus Mechanicus who desecrate human's holy form, mind and soul to such abominable forms that even Chaos spawns seems not so ugly anymore.
Tiennos wrote: Oh come on, people aren't naturally brutes who only want to beat up other brutes. There is such a thing as empathy. Being nice to other people feels nice. Several religions have been founded on that idea. The entire concept of democracy is to avoid having a few people bossing around the rest of the people. The fact that it doesn't work as well as it should doesn't change the fact that people saw what you call the "natural state" of humanity and decided it sucked for 99% of the population and seriously needed changing.
If chaos was running the galaxy, it wouldn't be a better place. The weak would be slaves just as much as in the Imperium, they only would have a different master.
This is the basis for almost all theology and philosophy. The question of whether we, at our core, trend towards brutality, selfishness, and cruelty, or towards order, empathy, and cooperation. There's tons of arguments for either side. Personal experiences can provide more than enough evidence to see the issue one way or the other, which cuts to the core of why people might choose to willingly serve Chaos.
Ernestas wrote: I do not say that Chaos is better than Imperium. I say why someone could sympathize with it. Strong rising to rule over weak is natural order of things. I personally despise weak people in life. I personally despise how modern world sees you as a worker in its own industry. I personally despise an idea of order where good = obeying law. I despise that we are made into nothing more than cogs who can't have their own agency, desires, ambitions. Where society judges you and decides what you can or cannot be. I despise arbitrary rules and baby sitting which modern state has. For me, more brutal world where my personal virtues would matter over nonsensical meritocracy of today or one of Imperium's is a lot more attractive. This is why to me an idea of Chaos is actually attractive. It is an escape from modern society and its ever increasing hold over individual. It is being unashamed for what you are. It is about promoting your own individuality over submission to what our worlds tells you need to be.
Even if life isn't much better serving either way, I don't think there is any essential difference to say that Imperium is better than Chaos. You will be toiling as insignificant cog for all your life to uncaring Imperium and be discarded the moment you become useless. It is long grind of your body and soul. In Chaos you are put into to toil as a slave for all your life. Is there truly a difference? In Imperium, you can join guard and be bullied by drill sergants and commissars, receive gakky food, not enough rest and be sent to die under orders of some incompetent commander for nothing. As a slave you can start some gak with rest of your more rowdy slaves and for successful rebellion be recruited into ranks of Chaos soldiers, militia, overseers. If you are worker in Imperium, you might as well decide to start some gak and become heretic. Chaos rewards deeds like betrayal and you most likely have a place in new world order afterwards. Death to me seems like poultry thing when you consider that an alternative is long life gruelling servitude to uncaring Imperium which aligns itself with creatures like Adeptus Mechanicus who desecrate human's holy form, mind and soul to such abominable forms that even Chaos spawns seems not so ugly anymore.
Well yeah, the Imperium isn't great either. Or any other faction, for that matter. That's the whole concept of 40k: to show what happens when you remove everything except violence. Many works of fiction glorify fighting, violence and war. 40k takes it to the extreme: there is only war and hate in this universe. And the conclusion is that life is worthless and everyone is miserable until they die horribly.
I get why you like chaos better than the Imperium, but I think you're fooling yourself if you think chaos is about honor and individuality. Worshipping Khorne means becoming more and more addicted to violence until fighting is the only thing that matters to you. Worshipping Slaanesh means slowly growing numb to pleasure and looking for more and more depraved things to try so you can find something new and exciting. It's the same idea with the other gods.
The point is: chaos may be about individuality in the beginning, but if you want power you have to get the gods to notice you and they dont want you to do things half-way. Nurgle doesn't care if you make someone catch a cold. You have to spread a plague to your city, then your planet, then the whole sector if you really want to please him. If you stop and say "that's enough chaos for me", you won't get anything. In the end, if you want to make it big you have to be a loyal servant to your god, not be your own person.
Tiennos wrote: Oh come on, people aren't naturally brutes who only want to beat up other brutes. There is such a thing as empathy. Being nice to other people feels nice. Several religions have been founded on that idea. The entire concept of democracy is to avoid having a few people bossing around the rest of the people. The fact that it doesn't work as well as it should doesn't change the fact that people saw what you call the "natural state" of humanity and decided it sucked for 99% of the population and seriously needed changing.
If chaos was running the galaxy, it wouldn't be a better place. The weak would be slaves just as much as in the Imperium, they only would have a different master.
This is the basis for almost all theology and philosophy. The question of whether we, at our core, trend towards brutality, selfishness, and cruelty, or towards order, empathy, and cooperation. There's tons of arguments for either side. Personal experiences can provide more than enough evidence to see the issue one way or the other, which cuts to the core of why people might choose to willingly serve Chaos.
Considering that the world is neither a violent mess where people screw each other all the time or a peaceful utopia where everyone helps his neighbor, I doubt there's an inherent human nature at all. Although that point depends a lot on religious views, so it's nearly impossible to get a definitive answer.
That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.
Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.
I disagree. Chaos is about promoting true nature of mankind which we keep oppressed.
Says the demon who whispers honeyed words into your ear, but is only looking to devour your soul. Is being turned into Chaos Spawn the result of the "true nature of mankind"?
Chaos is about appealing to our darker nature, yes. But not because it's the only thing available to us. They do it for their own amusement and power.
That's not Khorne though. Khorne is the result of enjoying the killing too much. You start out on a path of killing for protecting/honor/survival (which might be moral and just within a context) but end up on a path of bloodlust, where killing is all you long for. 40K Chaos is often the perversion of something that might normally be "good". You start out killing to hunt, then you kill to protect your town, then there's an argument in your town and you solve it with killing. Then friends of those whom you killed come after you for vengeance, so you kill more people. Then someone kills your family for vengeance, and you go on a spree. Then the town gets its best warriors to go after you, and you meet them in battle and kill them, and it feels good. So now all you want to do is wander the land and find warriors to kill, because it's the only thing that gives you pleasure anymore. You become a mercenary to get work and kill some more. You use the resources you can to encourage more fighting so you can kill more. You try to start wars so you can keep killing.
Chaos is the twisting of a basic drive into a destabilizing force strong enough to pull civilizations apart and create, well . . .chaos.
I disagree. Chaos is about promoting true nature of mankind which we keep oppressed.
Says the demon who whispers honeyed words into your ear, but is only looking to devour your soul. Is being turned into Chaos Spawn the result of the "true nature of mankind"?
Chaos is about appealing to our darker nature, yes. But not because it's the only thing available to us. They do it for their own amusement and power.
We need to compare then what happens to most prominent actors in W40k who embraces Chaos. Fabius Bile is your classical mad scientist type who rejects all forms of Chaos and its divinity. It wants nothing to do with Chaos and follows its own agenda outside of demons, spikiness and other such Chaotic nonsense. I do not say that what he is doing is good in any way, I'm saying that Fabius Bile is notoriously atheistic and independent. Chaos had enabled him to embrace his genius and gain personal strength to put that genius into practice. Now another example, Abbadon the despoiler. Despite all nonsense around him, there is one thing that nobody seems to disagree on. Abbadon retains his own independence and manages to "rule Chaos Imperium". Gods view him adoringly, because it is cute to see mortal to fight so strongly to his own soul which makes him all the more tasty. He is one of those rare cases where Gods would make him demon prince on a spot if he want to. Now look at Kharn. He is devout follower of Khorne yet in every audio drama he is portrayed as cunning, smart, calculated individual. He might slaughter his own friends, but this is only because they are not spiritually pure enough to stand by his side. I do not get that vibe of mindless killer when reading about him. While path of beserker is most common and easiest to follow, it isn't the only way to Khorne. It is sad that new lore was so dumbed down. Remember times when Khorne was about honor? When Khorne warrior would not kill ones weaker than himself, because such foes were beneath him? That a mighty Khorne warrior killing foes who can't even defend itself would earn no favor in eyes of Khorne and if anything would incur his displeasure? Those were Chaos Knights and Chaos Gods before were a lot more complex. Now Tzeentch is all about saying "just as planned" when he loses badly or plot is so convoluted and poorly written. Slaanesh became nothing more than sex and drugs. Where is love? Isn't loving your sister, borther, mother and family one of the strongest emotions available to man? Where are these stories about man wanting to protect his family and out of love to them seeks favor of Slaanesh to ensure that? What about Nurgle? Isn't he a God of life, nature, rebirth? Now he is just about rot and decay. He is one dimensional, smelly bastard. Yet in truth, he has a lot in common with pagan god like Cernunnos who are about vitality, nature, primal nature, cycles of nature, rebirth, reincarnation, etc.
I get why you like chaos better than the Imperium, but I think you're fooling yourself if you think chaos is about honor and individuality. Worshipping Khorne means becoming more and more addicted to violence until fighting is the only thing that matters to you. Worshipping Slaanesh means slowly growing numb to pleasure and looking for more and more depraved things to try so you can find something new and exciting. It's the same idea with the other gods.
The point is: chaos may be about individuality in the beginning, but if you want power you have to get the gods to notice you and they dont want you to do things half-way. Nurgle doesn't care if you make someone catch a cold. You have to spread a plague to your city, then your planet, then the whole sector if you really want to please him. If you stop and say "that's enough chaos for me", you won't get anything. In the end, if you want to make it big you have to be a loyal servant to your god, not be your own person.
I view Chaos less about honor, but more about independence, doing what you want to do. There are individuals in W40k who does not have much to do with Chaos Gods at all. Though, I do not see much of a problem of getting addicted to worship. For example, did you ever were at Church? I mean, somewhere where people really believed and worshipped Jesus? They are addicts to it, they are slaves to it. I was shocked and disgusted by them and I do not see this addiction to Khorne any different. Instead, I perceive it as a good thing. As making myself purer, as a warrior of old, of myths. Imagine life without doubt or fear. Imagine for example some scary movie like Aliens. There is a nest in your town. What Imperial citizens do? Nothing, but feed them. Like vermin they crawl, hide and cry trying to survive while they await their salvation from authorities. What would happen if Alien nest would appear in Chaos world? Lets say I would be a worshipper of Khorne and I would simply explode with rage that my master tolerates these pathetic xenos to exist. I would go and demand to purge them. If he would disagree, I would challenge and murder him. Then I would take his slaves, arm them and send those sorry bastards to nearest Alien nest. When we would meet with the enemy, I would force my worthless slaves to stay and fight with frienzone dosage and thus a glorious melee would begin. Instead of being food to them, instead of covering in the corner we would fight and die like men with dignity and if I succeed and prove myself as a proper man for vanquishing this alien vermin, Khorne is likely to reward me with some blessing for spilling blood in his name.
You see, this is why I do not see Chaos and Dark Gods as solely negative influence. Khorne might increase my rage, but it is my choice how much I want to worship him. I could choose to worship Chaos Undivided or I could be faithless and use Chaos solely for my own gains. With Chaos there isn't any inherent rules like mutations. Remember Iron Warriors? They do not mutate, they see it as great weakness and go to great lengths to avoid that. Like many legions and individuals, they see demons like tools and look down on uncontrolled mutations who twist sacred human body. Good example are Night Lords. With Chaos there aren't any constants, by its very nature Chaos is malleable, ever changing. One civilization in dark angels novel had struck a pact with them to protect them during old night and there wasn't any indication that this world worships Chaos. It was highly ordered and quite advanced human civilization. Other might be ruled by rogue psykers and everyone else are slaves to be abused. Third might be demon world of Nurgle. Fourth, etc... Chaos influence is what we allow it to be. It will change a man and depending on his will, it will benefit or curse him.
As for Chaos being directly related to power, I do not get this vibe in W40k lore. There are Iron Warriors who couldn't be less religious. There are Night Lords who shun away Chaos blessings if they are too obvious and use demons nothing more as weapons of war. There are then Word Bearers who fully relies on their Gods to grant them power. We have someone like Typhus forever being fully dedicated in worship of Nurgle while on other end we have Fabius Bile and Abbadon who never traded their own souls for power and are still one of most powerful individuals in Chaos ruled world. I think that getting power and worshipping Gods in W40k looks like our world. Technically we all are Christians, but few of us worship God and follows what Church asks of us. I do believe and in Chaos, not everybody does that, because it is hard. You have to actively dedicate your time, mind and emotions to do something. This takes pleasure from yourself. Then you need to have discipline to learn how to worship, how to summon demons, etc. This is another complication on top of it and this power is not absolute. You need to work for it. I would say it is similar thing to why are you not a programmer? Enroll to online courses, get your online certification, find programming job and earn a lot of money. You don't do that or something similar, because it is a lot of hard work. I think that Chaos worship is like that, it is another thing which you have to do on top of getting your degree (lets say in learning how to fight, command armies or how tech works).
Addiction isn't a problem if you're fine with being an addict, I guess... But seriously, when an addict tell themselves "I can stop anytime I want," they're delusional.
If you want independence and a true meritocratic society, the dark eldar are probably the best example. Anyone can move up the ranks, all they have to do is challenge and kill their boss. Vect himself started out as a slave.
The consequence is that you can't count on anyone but yourself in Commorragh. You don't have allies, you have people who will work with you if it's in their interest. Anyone will put a knife in your back if it benefits them and no one will help you if you can't help them. But as long as you're strong, smart and ruthless, you can rule the place and live forever. And you even get to keep your soul!
Well most of it. And there's the constant ever increasing thirst for the suffering of others that leaves a void in your very soul. But definitely meritocratic.
Dark eldar simply do not click with me. They lack that spiritual aspect, devotion, worship of Gods which I find attractive in Chaos, because I'm quite spiritual person myself and a pagan on top of it. So, this is why whole this Chaos worship narrative attracts me, because like I had shown you before, Pagan Gods have a lot of similarities with W40k or rather the other way around. As for meritocratic society, I see Chaos being similarly meritocratic like Dark Eldar, but being more human, psychic and less backstabbing, lonely bastards (remember, Khorne will backstab you in your face instead!). I see Chaos as tribal where my tribe is above everyone else mentality where Dark Eldar for me strikes for meritocratic, atheistic, individualistic person.
I will add video relevant to these discussions if anyone is interested in watching it. It talks exactly about what we were talking here for last few pages.
Ernestas wrote: Dark eldar simply do not click with me. They lack that spiritual aspect, devotion, worship of Gods which I find attractive in Chaos, because I'm quite spiritual person myself and a pagan on top of it. So, this is why whole this Chaos worship narrative attracts me, because like I had shown you before, Pagan Gods have a lot of similarities with W40k or rather the other way around. As for meritocratic society, I see Chaos being similarly meritocratic like Dark Eldar, but being more human, psychic and less backstabbing, lonely bastards (remember, Khorne will backstab you in your face instead!). I see Chaos as tribal where my tribe is above everyone else mentality where Dark Eldar for me strikes for meritocratic, atheistic, individualistic person.
I will add video relevant to these discussions if anyone is interested in watching it. It talks exactly about what we were talking here for last few pages.
quite literally could add Godless, due to them beeing eaten.
, ruthlessness 
, despair 
and (surprise) bloodlust 
.
