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Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:20:17


Post by: Gadzilla666


Many loyalist marine players make the argument that it's a "drawback" that they don't get doctrines if they bring allies and that other factions have an "advantage" in that they can without losing similar abilities, which they don't have in the first place, or for whom taking allies isn't even an option in the first place like most xenos factions.

This ignores the fact that loyalist marines have the largest and most well supported selection of units in the game, so much so that they have multiple redundant options to fill most roles. They have flyers, super heavys, out of LOS shooting. Do they need allies? Is it a disadvantage for them not to take them?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:25:50


Post by: Insectum7


It's a pretty straight-forward trade off, imo. Not being able to freely take allies IS a disadvantage, it's just balanced out by (over)encouragement to play mono.

I don't FEEL like it's a particularly costly drawback most of the time since I prefer to play mono. But if I was inclined to take a Knight or Guardsmen or something, I'd have to do some serious considering.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:28:00


Post by: Vaktathi


In my own personal experience, the only reason I really see people taking allies is for some sort of advantage that their own faction doesn't have, as opposed to any narrative/fluff reasons. With respect to Loyalist Space Marines, about the allies I ever saw were the standard Guard CP battery or a Knight. With the Castellan nerfed, most of the Knight allies disappeared, and the CP battery doesn't come anywhere near matching the power of the new SM bonus rules, so they of course disappeared overnight as well. It's difficult to see where Loyalist Space Marines are suffering any sort of downside. They're still free to take allies if they want, they just don't get as many of their insanely overamped special rules, and most importantly as noted, rules that most other factions don't have equivalents of anyway.

Anyone making the argument that such is a "drawback" I'd have to argue is being disingenuous. In the strictest most literal sense, sure it's a drawback, but not in any meaningful practical sense.

EDIT: spelling


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:29:35


Post by: Martel732


Just losing cheap bodies. Cheap bodies are power, and scouts don't count as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Many loyalist marine players make the argument that it's a "drawback" that they don't get doctrines if they bring allies and that other factions have an "advantage" in that they can without losing similar abilities, which they don't have in the first place, or for whom taking allies isn't even an option in the first place like most xenos factions.

This ignores the fact that loyalist marines have the largest and most well supported selection of units in the game, so much so that they have multiple redundant options to fill most roles. They have flyers, super heavys, out of LOS shooting. Do they need allies? Is it a disadvantage for them not to take them?


As I just mentioned, the only thing they lack is cheap bodies. Which are VERY powerful in 8th. But, marines have so many crazy rules now, they can even overcome that most of the time.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:33:54


Post by: Insectum7


 Vaktathi wrote:
In my own personal experience, the only reason I really see people taking allies is for some sort of advantage that their own faction doesn't have, as opposed to any narrative/fluff reasons. With respect to Loyalist Space Marines, about the allies I ever saw were the standard Guard CP battery or a Knight. With the Castellan nerfed, most of the Knight allies disappeared, and the CP battery doesn't come anywhere near matching the power of the new SM bonus rules, so they of course disappeared overnight as well. It's difficult to see where Loyalist Space Marines are suffering any sort of downside. They're still free to take allies if they want, they just don't get as many of their insanely overamped special rules, and most importantly as noted, rules that most other factions don't have equivalents of anyway.

Anyone making such a complaint I'd have to argue that such is a "drawback" is being disingenuous. In the strictest most literal sense, sure it's a drawback, but not in any meaningful practical sense.


I think the drawback would have a lot more teeth to it if Marines didn't have EVERYTHING. Like Martel says, the only thing they truly lack is cheap bodies. But even then with Bolter Discipline they are able to cut such huge swathes of opposing cheap bodies off the table they more than make up for it.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:35:38


Post by: Martel732


Bolter discipline does force them to not move, which can be VERY costly. Marines can't be everywhere at once, so movement is valuable to them.

Cheap bodies have no such drawback in 8th. They have no drawback at all outside of ITC games. Look at how many rules they had to give marines to counteract cheap wound armies. Bolters aren't lethal to anything in the numbers they are fielded, so primaris have 3 snowflake bolters with extra AP from magical doctrines, one of which shoots extra if it stands still. All because bolters pre-PA were useless vs guardsmen and such.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:38:13


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
Bolter discipline does force them to not move, which can be VERY costly.


As a UM player I don't even have that drawback. I can just waltz about firing twice up to maximum range and without penalty for moving and firing Heavies. It's crazy.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 21:41:18


Post by: Martel732


It's all fun and games until your opponent's turn. Marines are still glass cannons as well. Very few defensive buffs. Almost all offensive to remove MOAR models. Is glass cannon status enough of a drawback? It hurts BA really bad, UM probably less so.

Actually, power armor is worse than ever because of the marine upgrades. Thanks, GW. It might be worse than it was in 2nd, except the marines are so much cheaper.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:12:00


Post by: Vaktathi


In all fairness, the entire game in 8E is oriented around firepower and are more sparing with defensive buffs, that isn't unique to Marines. GW has actively tamped down on resiliency and ratcheted up firepower across the board. The stuff GW tends to take the most urgency in nerfing is stuff that they feel takes too long to die or otherwise makes stuff really hard to kill (Take Cover stratagem, Castellans, Invul Saves, Iron Hands, Cultists, Conscripts, etc) and has really gone out of their way to avoid most of the truly unkillable units that we saw in preceding editions, while adding more and more killing power and actively making some of the most lethal units in the game continually killier and/or cheaper.

There's exceptions to all that obviously, but the trend across the board is heavily stilted in favor of killing power as opposed to resiliency (however it is expressed, through numbers, sv, etc), and as well appear to agree, the Doctrines more than seem to make up for not having those extra numbers and CP that Guard allies could provide, numbers Marines have really never been intended to have in the first place.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:28:45


Post by: Martel732


I still contemplate guardsmen because they are that damn good. Scouts are pure gak in comparison. If it were just super doctrine, I'd bite.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:31:23


Post by: BrianDavion


ohh look another "let's complain about doctrines" thread. *takes a shot*

of course not being able to take allies is a draw back. but it's generally considered to be "worth it" I mean prior to the 8.5 marine codex how many compeitive "pure marine lists" where there?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:33:24


Post by: Martel732


I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari. A really gak fix. My favorite change was 3 wounds for gravis, so those models aren't pure gak.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:38:48


Post by: PenitentJake


Taking faction specificity out of it, and just addressing mechanics, the whole doctrine/ super doctrine schtick, which some other armies are beginning to receive via PA and WD, was intended to specifically be a response to the three years of whining we hard about SOUP.

I think it was a good idea to add a cost to SOUP, though I think they may have over-corrected a bit.

If anyone, regardless of faction, wants both doctrines and SOUP at the same time, they are absolutely ignorant of the purpose of the rule. It was specifically created to address a particular issue.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:39:50


Post by: Martel732


No one should be seriously asking for doctrines AND soup. That's insane.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 22:54:10


Post by: BrianDavion


Martel732 wrote:
No one should be seriously asking for doctrines AND soup. That's insane.


yeah and I don't think anyone's asked for it to be combined. at most you have Marine players, fairly, noting that if they want to use doctrines, they can't use soup. it's a cost. and there might be some times you're better off not bothering with doctrines. (partiuclarly now that you HAVE to rotate them)


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:06:48


Post by: JNAProductions


It's technically a drawback.

But considering the insane power Marines of all Imperium types have, it's pathetically small.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:08:18


Post by: Martel732


 JNAProductions wrote:
It's technically a drawback.

But considering the insane power Marines of all Imperium types have, it's pathetically small.


Because guardsmen are so nuts, it's not pathetic. If those elite castles had IG in front of them, they'd be MUCH harder to deal with.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:20:08


Post by: Vaktathi


Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
It's technically a drawback.

But considering the insane power Marines of all Imperium types have, it's pathetically small.


Because guardsmen are so nuts, it's not pathetic. If those elite castles had IG in front of them, they'd be MUCH harder to deal with.
Sure, if a faction has access to literally every tactical option in the game on top of stupendously powerful rules, it would be harder to deal with, that's not saying much

Likewise, I don't get the fixation with Guardsmen at this point. Guard haven't been the top of the metagame for a loooooooooong time, and at this point it's far more about undercosted tank commanders that can slay almost anything in a single round of shooting than anything related to the infantry unless one is permanently fixated on Tacs vs Guardsmen in isolation for some reason. Cheap troops are useful, but they're not defining the metagame either at this point.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:25:33


Post by: Racerguy180


Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
Just losing cheap bodies. Cheap bodies are power, and scouts don't count as such.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Many loyalist marine players make the argument that it's a "drawback" that they don't get doctrines if they bring allies and that other factions have an "advantage" in that they can without losing similar abilities, which they don't have in the first place, or for whom taking allies isn't even an option in the first place like most xenos factions.

This ignores the fact that loyalist marines have the largest and most well supported selection of units in the game, so much so that they have multiple redundant options to fill most roles. They have flyers, super heavys, out of LOS shooting. Do they need allies? Is it a disadvantage for them not to take them?


As I just mentioned, the only thing they lack is cheap bodies. Which are VERY powerful in 8th. But, marines have so many crazy rules now, they can even overcome that most of the time.

just not Blood Angels



I have never been, man I wish I had taken an ally with my Salamanders.
Bloody Rose, Metallica then maybe yes once or twice.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:37:25


Post by: JNAProductions


A 4 point Guardsman (we'll assume Cadian) versus a 12 point Tactical Marine (we'll assume, I dunno, Black Templars).

10 Marines versus 30 Guardsmen, giving Marines the first turn

Spoiler:
Round 1
Marines fire 20 shots
40/3 hit
80/9 wound
160/27 go through, or just over 6 dead Guard. Morale could wipe a squad, but we'll assume it's just ONE casualty, for 7 dead Guard

Guard fire 21 shots
21/2 hit
7/2 wound
7/6 go through, for just over 1 dead Marine

Round 2
Marines fire 18 shots
12 hit
8 wound at AP-1 now
20/3 dead Guard, or nearly 7 right there. We'll assume, once again, a single morale casualty, for 8 dead Guard

Guard fire 14 shots
7 hit
7/3 wound
7/9 go through, for another dead Marine

Round 3
Marines fire 16 shots
32/3 hit
64/9 wound
160/27 go through, for 6 dead Guard again. Once again, lowballing morale, for one casualty.

Guard fire 8 shots
4 hit
4/3 wound
4/9 go through, but we'll round up for another dead Marine

Round 4
Marines fire 14 shots
28/3 hit
56/9 wound
112/27 go through, for 4 dead Guard. No morale casualties this time, because we're split firing now.

Guard fire 4 shots
2 hits
2/3 wounds
2/9 go through-but hey, let's say they get lucky. One Marine dead.

Round 5
Marines fire 12 shots
8 hit
16/3 wound
32/9 dead, or enough to say the Guardsmen are dealt with.


In an open firefight, no cover (which would VASTLY favor Marines), no support... The worst troops choice in the Marine Codex beats Guardsmen.

Edit: I did derp up and forgot to apply the Cadian Regiment trait. But honestly? It ain't gonna change much.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:39:49


Post by: Martel732


I'm talking vs the field, not head to head. Cheap bodies have a lot of uses that have nothing to do with that kind of analysis.

Do an analysis of soaking smites from 1K sons or GK.

Those guardsmen can be holding 3 objectives, not just one.

Who do you want soaking a charge from the DC? I know who I want soaking it.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:46:43


Post by: JNAProductions


Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking vs the field, not head to head. Cheap bodies have a lot of uses that have nothing to do with that kind of analysis.

Do an analysis of soaking smites from 1K sons or GK.
Okay.

Two 5-man Strike Squads that both successfully cast Smite then shoot, get the following:

4 MW
40 shots
80/3 hits
40/3 wounds......160/9 wounds
40/9 unsaved.....320/27 unsaved
8.5 dead............15.9 dead
MEQ...................GEQ
102......................63.6

They're about 60% more effective, if they get their two-wound Smites.
Of course, if they're BT or have a Chaplain with the right Litany, that drops to 7.1 dead MEQ, for only 85 points and only about a third again more effective.

Notably, Tacticals are STILL the worst troops choice. Scouts are cheaper per wound. Intercessors, even more so.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:48:11


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari.

How is more bullets being fired at Daemons and Drukari "nothing"?

And how can you still be complaining about Guardsmen?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:49:36


Post by: JNAProductions


Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) can hold two objectives. Sure, they have to be strung out, but they can very easily murder the Guard off an objective.

You can't hold if you're dead.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:51:33


Post by: Insectum7


 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) .


I do!


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:53:49


Post by: JNAProductions


 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) .


I do!
Fair. Are you taking them to big tournaments? And do you think they're actually the best troops choice, or you just take them because you like them?

'Cause there's nothing wrong with liking Tacticals, but they're just lacking compared to the other options.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/20 23:55:18


Post by: Martel732


 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari.

How is more bullets being fired at Daemons and Drukari "nothing"?

And how can you still be complaining about Guardsmen?


Because nothing should cost 4 pts in this game. Except grots obviously, which are fine at 3. And they STILL double their firepower for a pittance. Ridiculous.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I still think doctrines target units that didn't need to die faster, like other marines. They do nothing vs demons and drukhari.

How is more bullets being fired at Daemons and Drukari "nothing"?

And how can you still be complaining about Guardsmen?


Doctrines give me AP, not more bullets. I don't know about vanilla cheese.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
I'm talking vs the field, not head to head. Cheap bodies have a lot of uses that have nothing to do with that kind of analysis.

Do an analysis of soaking smites from 1K sons or GK.
Okay.

Two 5-man Strike Squads that both successfully cast Smite then shoot, get the following:

4 MW
40 shots
80/3 hits
40/3 wounds......160/9 wounds
40/9 unsaved.....320/27 unsaved
8.5 dead............15.9 dead
MEQ...................GEQ
102......................63.6

They're about 60% more effective, if they get their two-wound Smites.
Of course, if they're BT or have a Chaplain with the right Litany, that drops to 7.1 dead MEQ, for only 85 points and only about a third again more effective.

Notably, Tacticals are STILL the worst troops choice. Scouts are cheaper per wound. Intercessors, even more so.


Now start putting gear on those tacticals. It goes downhill. Fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) can hold two objectives. Sure, they have to be strung out, but they can very easily murder the Guard off an objective.

You can't hold if you're dead.


The horrible aura scheme really discourages this.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:08:49


Post by: Galas


Who has said that is a drawback that you lose doctrines if you are not a marine?


Doctrines are actually the first BONUS for playing a mono faction of the game, followed by the grey knights and the Sororitas one.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:09:52


Post by: Martel732


 Galas wrote:
Who has said that is a drawback that you lose doctrines if you are not a marine?


Doctrines are actually the first BONUS for playing a mono faction of the game, followed by the grey knights and the Sororitas one.


That's the other way to look at it.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:15:15


Post by: Galas


Also Martel I'm sorry but we are living in a post doctrines world.

Imperial Guard have been mid tier for more than half a year. Imperial Guardsmen are neligible to remove and their shooting output isnt even that good anymore compared with nearly everything else on the game. Any Space Marine army can remove 60-80 ork boyz a turn, it can do the same with imperial guardsmen. And Ork shooting is MUCH deadlier than imperial guard one.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:26:07


Post by: Martel732


 Galas wrote:
Also Martel I'm sorry but we are living in a post doctrines world.

Imperial Guard have been mid tier for more than half a year. Imperial Guardsmen are neligible to remove and their shooting output isnt even that good anymore compared with nearly everything else on the game. Any Space Marine army can remove 60-80 ork boyz a turn, it can do the same with imperial guardsmen. And Ork shooting is MUCH deadlier than imperial guard one.


Still really, really good for their price. EVen if you removed 80 guardsmen, that's what? 320 points? BA armies throw that many points away to establish "table position".

Once the elite shooting castles can't win anymore, which will happen soon, guardsmen will benefit tremendously.

I consider it significant to not bring guard allies anymore.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:37:07


Post by: Insectum7


 JNAProductions wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Also, 10 Tactical Marines (that no ones taking anyway) .


I do!
Fair. Are you taking them to big tournaments? And do you think they're actually the best troops choice, or you just take them because you like them?

'Cause there's nothing wrong with liking Tacticals, but they're just lacking compared to the other options.

I've taken them to small tournaments. Tacticals output more damage than Intercessors vs. the heavier (more expensive) targets I'm usually interested in focusing on. They can also ride the transports I'm interested in.

They ain't everyone's pick, but they're definitely my pick.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:38:57


Post by: Martel732


They're super fragile though. Marines have enough damage. They need durability. You can't even give them a weapon I'd consider good except a single plasma gun.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:40:08


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
ohh look another "let's complain about doctrines" thread. *takes a shot*

of course not being able to take allies is a draw back. but it's generally considered to be "worth it" I mean prior to the 8.5 marine codex how many compeitive "pure marine lists" where there?

That was my question: is it a drawback, and if so do the advantages make up for it? I've not heard anyone saying that loyalist marines should get doctrines and soup. I have however been told that souping without losing anything was an advantage for chaos.

There was one guy who got irate when I pointed out that if he wanted a super heavy that didn't break doctrines he could take an astreus instead of a knight. But that was just one guy.

So far the only complaint seems to be not taking guardsmen. And that's just Martel.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:43:44


Post by: Martel732


No no. I'ts not a complaint. I'm just listing it as a significant loss. I'd take a hatchet to the current marine rules for sure.

I'd say in the meta right now, the advantages make up for it. But if marines go out of style, I'll be back to soup, because I don't need doctrines vs invuln-based armies. AP was such a stupid thing to give out.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 00:51:43


Post by: Gadzilla666


Martel732 wrote:
No no. I'ts not a complaint. I'm just listing it as a significant loss. I'd take a hatchet to the current marine rules for sure.

I'd say in the meta right now, the advantages make up for it. But if marines go out of style, I'll be back to soup, because I don't need doctrines vs invuln-based armies. AP was such a stupid thing to give out.

Is it really the guardsmen that are a loss or the cheap cp they provide?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 01:03:09


Post by: Martel732


I don't miss the CP. I miss the table control and barrier to movement. They made my record vs other BA lists quite good. Other BA players discovered the limits of "flying over screens" very quickly. I don't play a CP thristy style. Or, at least, as little as possible.

Most BA players are gaga over scouts, and guardsmen are a much better value. Except for the doctrine thing, of course.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 01:24:21


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
No no. I'ts not a complaint. I'm just listing it as a significant loss. I'd take a hatchet to the current marine rules for sure.

I'd say in the meta right now, the advantages make up for it. But if marines go out of style, I'll be back to soup, because I don't need doctrines vs invuln-based armies. AP was such a stupid thing to give out.

Is it really the guardsmen that are a loss or the cheap cp they provide?

Nah, infantry are a loss for sure. For the piss small investment you cover your home objectives SUPER well.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 01:36:25


Post by: Vaktathi


Either way, whether it's CP or bodies, it doesn't appear to be enough to give any Marine list with access to Doctrines enough pause to have to think about it, Guard allies disappeared without a second thought from such armies the second Doctrines rolled around, I can't find any recent lists from tournaments or the Army lists subforum in recent months for any such army that includes Guardsmen.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 01:38:42


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
They're super fragile though. Marines have enough damage. They need durability. You can't even give them a weapon I'd consider good except a single plasma gun.

They're fine. And considering it's trivial to get 70+ AP-3 2/D3 damage shots out an army, Intercessors aren't much tougher. If you want durability, get out of LOS or get into transports.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 01:39:20


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Vaktathi wrote:
Either way, whether it's CP or bodies, it doesn't appear to be enough to give any Marine list with access to Doctrines enough pause to have to think about it, Guard allies disappeared without a second thought from such armies the second Doctrines rolled around, I can't find any recent lists from tournaments or the Army lists subforum in recent months for any such army that includes Guardsmen.

It's almost as though increasing your army's offensive output a stupid amount can do that.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 01:59:22


Post by: Gadzilla666


Ok, so loyalists don't have a source of cheap bodies, is there anything else they're lacking in without allies? And I don't mean something that an allied faction has that's better than the loyalist equivalent. Is there a roll that they don't have a good unit to fill?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:04:24


Post by: Martel732


 Insectum7 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
They're super fragile though. Marines have enough damage. They need durability. You can't even give them a weapon I'd consider good except a single plasma gun.

They're fine. And considering it's trivial to get 70+ AP-3 2/D3 damage shots out an army, Intercessors aren't much tougher. If you want durability, get out of LOS or get into transports.


AGree to disagree. They are pathetically flimsy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so loyalists don't have a source of cheap bodies, is there anything else they're lacking in without allies? And I don't mean something that an allied faction has that's better than the loyalist equivalent. Is there a roll that they don't have a good unit to fill?


Well, the snowflake chapters lack GOOD ignore LoS.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:05:17


Post by: Vaktathi


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Either way, whether it's CP or bodies, it doesn't appear to be enough to give any Marine list with access to Doctrines enough pause to have to think about it, Guard allies disappeared without a second thought from such armies the second Doctrines rolled around, I can't find any recent lists from tournaments or the Army lists subforum in recent months for any such army that includes Guardsmen.

It's almost as though increasing your army's offensive output a stupid amount can do that.
Aye, and that seems to be how GW is attempting to "balance" stuff at this point. They don't want to make stuff unkillable or resilient, they're far more willing to simply amp up the firepower instead.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:07:37


Post by: JNAProductions


You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:08:02


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so loyalists don't have a source of cheap bodies, is there anything else they're lacking in without allies? And I don't mean something that an allied faction has that's better than the loyalist equivalent. Is there a roll that they don't have a good unit to fill?


Well, the snowflake chapters lack GOOD ignore LoS.

The FW Whirlwind Scorpius is pretty dang mean, and the Thunderfire is great for it's cost.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:12:14


Post by: Martel732


 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:16:38


Post by: JNAProductions


Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.
So, you do have the option to use it in-faction, you just refuse to do it.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:21:52


Post by: Insectum7


How many factions have strong ignore LOS stuff anyways? Guard and Tyranids off the top of my head. Eldar kind of with their DR Exarchs, but that's not very high S.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:25:02


Post by: Martel732


 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.
So, you do have the option to use it in-faction, you just refuse to do it.


Is it even in production still?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:31:57


Post by: Insectum7


Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
You’ve still got the relic scorpius.


In my dreams that's getting nerfed or going to legends. I'm not counting it for now.

Snowflakes don't get the TFC.
So, you do have the option to use it in-faction, you just refuse to do it.


Is it even in production still?

A simple visit to the FW site says yes.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:48:25


Post by: Martel732


Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 02:53:31


Post by: Gadzilla666


Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 03:17:00


Post by: Martel732


I'm not the only one who dislikes FW to be fair. But yea, it seem likely to survive FW realignment.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 03:29:34


Post by: Insectum7


I don't use FW for my marines either, (or Primaris), but I'm not going to claim they aren't available.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 03:39:44


Post by: Martel732


I think I have a stronger argument for the chappy dread. Marines have way too many units. But yes, they can roll it out for ignore LoS. For now.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 04:06:06


Post by: Gadzilla666


There's no "for now" to it. The model is still in production, it'll be in the new fw books. If it makes you feel better the chaplain dreadnought is OOP so it'll probably be heading to legends.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 04:11:13


Post by: Martel732


I know. But the scorpius might get nerfed to be more in line with whirlwinds. That's my hope anyway.

Busting the dreads down to BS 3+ would be nice too so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 04:11:19


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 04:19:13


Post by: Martel732


BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs


You get chapter masters that aren't chapter masters. That's better than most snowflake units right there.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 04:59:05


Post by: Gadzilla666


Martel732 wrote:I know. But the scorpius might get nerfed to be more in line with whirlwinds. That's my hope anyway.

Busting the dreads down to BS 3+ would be nice too so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

I'd be cool with contemptors going back to what they were in 7th: BS 3+, WS 2+ if they got fleet back in some form.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

Do you really want those? Would you trade TFCs for them?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 05:31:53


Post by: Martel732


"I'd be cool with contemptors going back to what they were in 7th: BS 3+, WS 2+ if they got fleet back in some form."

Better than another BS 2+ pillbox.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 06:08:41


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:I know. But the scorpius might get nerfed to be more in line with whirlwinds. That's my hope anyway.

Busting the dreads down to BS 3+ would be nice too so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

I'd be cool with contemptors going back to what they were in 7th: BS 3+, WS 2+ if they got fleet back in some form.

BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

Do you really want those? Would you trade TFCs for them?


.depending on the edition I might , also given the TFC is resin I don't actually have one I hate working with finecast

but I missed a smily emojii so perhaps people took my comment more seriously then it was intended. Still the point is valid that each of the codices has their own unique flavor units. That said if GW released a plastic TFC (it's resin after all) I'd expect to see it with a primaris tech marine and avaliable to everyone.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 07:12:01


Post by: Dysartes


I'm still disappointed in GW that they didn't get around to making the Thunderfire Cannon as a plastic kit.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 08:41:48


Post by: Slipspace


Great, another thread derailed by a certain someone complaining about Infantry Squads - a unit that hasn't been meta relevant since the updated SM Codex was released (if not before).

Anyway, it's obviously, strictly speaking, a drawback that SM lose bonuses once they soup. They're one of the few armies that do so and they do lack cheap bodies which allies can provide. However, it's not a "real" drawback for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the benefits they get are ridiculously good, more than compensating for the "loss" of allies. Secondly, those cheap bodies and cheap CP generators are nowhere near as attractive an option as they once were. SM Troops are now good enough that a dual battalion is viable without being a major disadvantage so CP generation is not a problem. The cheap bodies can be replaced by more expensive but much more durable Troops like Intercessors who will happily sit on a backfield objective and use Bolter Discipline to contribute very effectively to the battle.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 16:41:04


Post by: Orange Knight


I used to ally Knights and Guard with my Astartes and feel the loss of the allies is significant.

I often chose to ally in models even if I lose the Doctrines for my home-brew chapter.

I don't min/max the doctrines however. If I was running Master Artisans and Stealthy I would probably run a mono Marine force...


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 16:55:10


Post by: Insectum7


BrianDavion wrote:
.depending on the edition I might , also given the TFC is resin I don't actually have one I hate working with finecast

but I missed a smily emojii so perhaps people took my comment more seriously then it was intended. Still the point is valid that each of the codices has their own unique flavor units. That said if GW released a plastic TFC (it's resin after all) I'd expect to see it with a primaris tech marine and avaliable to everyone.
Dysartes wrote:I'm still disappointed in GW that they didn't get around to making the Thunderfire Cannon as a plastic kit.


Plastic Thunderfires you say? Get some Kataphron Breacher/Destroyer treads, a Stalker/Hunter kit and some magnets and presto! Plastic Thunderfires. I'm most of the way done on my first, and as soon as I get me another Hunter/Stalker, I'll be able to do three of 'em. Build Techmarines to your liking. (I love the 90's era metals.)



Edit: I added a small plastic spacer ring to make a better fit and added clearance on the ones that have the gun attached. Otherwise it couldn't be a simpler build.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 17:15:10


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


FW also has the Rapier weapons and those are a pretty good substitute.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 17:22:37


Post by: Martel732


Slipspace wrote:
Great, another thread derailed by a certain someone complaining about Infantry Squads - a unit that hasn't been meta relevant since the updated SM Codex was released (if not before).

Anyway, it's obviously, strictly speaking, a drawback that SM lose bonuses once they soup. They're one of the few armies that do so and they do lack cheap bodies which allies can provide. However, it's not a "real" drawback for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the benefits they get are ridiculously good, more than compensating for the "loss" of allies. Secondly, those cheap bodies and cheap CP generators are nowhere near as attractive an option as they once were. SM Troops are now good enough that a dual battalion is viable without being a major disadvantage so CP generation is not a problem. The cheap bodies can be replaced by more expensive but much more durable Troops like Intercessors who will happily sit on a backfield objective and use Bolter Discipline to contribute very effectively to the battle.


You know I'm beginning to think you don't understand what a complaint is. I simply said its a significant loss because they are so cheap.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 17:56:43


Post by: kingheff


I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 18:28:23


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 18:47:59


Post by: kingheff


 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.


I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 18:50:24


Post by: Martel732


Probably drop pods.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 18:58:18


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.


I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Pods for Grav. Although usually I use Plasma on some squads for the 36" Range and higher strength. Grav is just the simplest way to get tons of shots. My lists get to 70+ AP -3 shots without leaning on the full Grav squads though, meaning I could hit 100 if I pushed for it.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:00:23


Post by: Martel732


It's an anti-marine skew build. Pretty savvy right now, but fails vs cheap models. And marine players who cough up for infiltrators.

Basically it turns intercessors into one wound marines at great cost to itself. Grav cannons are not good in general, but vs primaris they are.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:13:29


Post by: kingheff


 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.


I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Pods for Grav. Although usually I use Plasma on some squads for the 36" Range and higher strength. Grav is just the simplest way to get tons of shots. My lists get to 70+ AP -3 shots without leaning on the full Grav squads though, meaning I could hit 100 if I pushed for it.

So not 500 PTS then, it also leaves two drop pods which your opponent can now hug to avoid getting shot.
It's not that it's impossible to get to ludicrous amounts of firepower, it's more that it's very difficult to build good all round lists that can survive going second etc.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:34:36


Post by: Insectum7


Pods survive going second automatically. I actually lean on Rhinos quite a bit to absorb 1st turn fire pretty often, too. I also use the transports to push my drop count lower to give me a better chance for the alpha.

Not saying it's an amazing list, but it gets me by. You're going to laugh, I use 10 man Tactical Squads too


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:40:23


Post by: kingheff


I run salamanders, I don't laugh at tactical.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:40:48


Post by: Martel732


You're kind of acting like its an amazing list.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:41:51


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.


I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Pods for Grav. Although usually I use Plasma on some squads for the 36" Range and higher strength. Grav is just the simplest way to get tons of shots. My lists get to 70+ AP -3 shots without leaning on the full Grav squads though, meaning I could hit 100 if I pushed for it.

Don't forget Grav has that tasty Strat to give them a free reroll to wound. Combine Chapter Master and that for shenanigans.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 19:42:43


Post by: kingheff


But I wasn't referring to pods when going second, more that a good list has to survive going second and if you're squeezing too much dakka in you're having to cut corners somewhere else.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 20:36:57


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
But I wasn't referring to pods when going second, more that a good list has to survive going second and if you're squeezing too much dakka in you're having to cut corners somewhere else.

Well, of course listbuilding is all about making tradeoffs. Listbuilding wouldn't be very interesting if you could just take all of the things all the time. You were wondering how a list gets 70+ AP-3 shots and I'm just telling you how I do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[
Don't forget Grav has that tasty Strat to give them a free reroll to wound. Combine Chapter Master and that for shenanigans.

Not only that, but if I take the Oath I can give those rerolls to everyone in the army against a single target if I want to.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 20:58:26


Post by: kingheff


 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
But I wasn't referring to pods when going second, more that a good list has to survive going second and if you're squeezing too much dakka in you're having to cut corners somewhere else.

Well, of course listbuilding is all about making tradeoffs. Listbuilding wouldn't be very interesting if you could just take all of the things all the time. You were wondering how a list gets 70+ AP-3 shots and I'm just telling you how I do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[
Don't forget Grav has that tasty Strat to give them a free reroll to wound. Combine Chapter Master and that for shenanigans.

Not only that, but if I take the Oath I can give those rerolls to everyone in the army against a single target if I want to.


I wasn't doubting that it's possible, especially for marines, but marines are far from what most armies can bring to the table at the moment. Even then the iron hands intercessor list doesn't bring anything like that, nor did the aeldari air force. My point was that people tend to get caught up with what the worse case scenario of what they could face rather than the reality of actual lists.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 21:29:52


Post by: Insectum7


Well, as they say: "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst." If you're prepared for the worst, then when not-the-worst comes along you won't think it's so terrible.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 22:08:28


Post by: kingheff


It's mostly that it annoys me when people say unit xyz is worthless because every army has ten thousand guns that kill it without even rolling when plenty of armies/players have virtually no guns or uses mortal wounds or just clog up the board with bodies or have, I don't know a TAC list that doesn't spam any type of weapon.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/21 22:15:53


Post by: Canadian 5th


 kingheff wrote:
It's mostly that it annoys me when people say unit xyz is worthless because every army has ten thousand guns that kill it without even rolling when plenty of armies/players have virtually no guns or uses mortal wounds or just clog up the board with bodies or have, I don't know a TAC list that doesn't spam any type of weapon.

TAC lists usually try to hit a couple of basic thresholds in terms of anti-tank and anti-horde firepower.

You generally want to be able to remove 24+ T8 4++ protected wounds per turn or risk being destroyed by Knights.

You also probably want the option to remove/neutralize 60+ ork boyz in a turn as well or risk being overwhelmed.

This is part of why things like Plasma and auto cannons are so in favour as they fit many roles and are rarely wasted against any common list.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 07:23:58


Post by: kingheff


Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 07:43:38


Post by: Ice_can


 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

For marine's with reroll your reroll of a reroll aura, relics, litanies, it works plenty well enough.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 07:45:12


Post by: Slipspace


 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


While they might often need a bit more than just those two weapons, Space Marines are capable of fielding a lot of those types of guns and their ridiculous number of re-rolls makes them extremely effective against...well, anything. Including Knights. It's one of the reasons the no-allies "drawback" for SM really isn't one. Their various buffs and special rules effectively remove the need for the sort of volume of fire you get from massed Guard guns, for example. Add in abilities like the Siegebreaker Cohort (or whatever that IF formation is called) and you can take down the toughest of targets with bolter fire.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 08:47:05


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 08:49:14


Post by: tneva82


 Vaktathi wrote:
In my own personal experience, the only reason I really see people taking allies is for some sort of advantage that their own faction doesn't have, as opposed to any narrative/fluff reasons. With respect to Loyalist Space Marines, about the allies I ever saw were the standard Guard CP battery or a Knight. With the Castellan nerfed, most of the Knight allies disappeared, and the CP battery doesn't come anywhere near matching the power of the new SM bonus rules, so they of course disappeared overnight as well. It's difficult to see where Loyalist Space Marines are suffering any sort of downside. They're still free to take allies if they want, they just don't get as many of their insanely overamped special rules, and most importantly as noted, rules that most other factions don't have equivalents of anyway.

Anyone making the argument that such is a "drawback" I'd have to argue is being disingenuous. In the strictest most literal sense, sure it's a drawback, but not in any meaningful practical sense.

EDIT: spelling


Biggest loss is probably assasins. Sniper and anti psyker ones are pretty good and as you can choose which to use depending on opponent you never really have wasted unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What's alternative? Lascannons? You said yourself reason(4++) why lascannons arent' actually that good AT weapons. There's reason why people have long time ago(before 8th ed even) from single shot high S good AP weapons for AT purposes


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 08:55:57


Post by: kingheff


It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference. Using S7 or less weapons to take out knights isn't a great plan. It's why I'm not a big fan of star cannon spam in Craftworlds lists, if doom doesn't go off your anti tank is too greatly reduced.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 09:05:05


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 09:33:16


Post by: kingheff


 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 09:49:00


Post by: Orange Knight


So you'd need to get 20 Plasmas in Rapid Fire range.

Theory crafting like this isn't overly helpful. I don't recall getting 20 plasma within range of what I wanted to deal with in one turn during any game against a skilful opponent.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 11:06:22


Post by: Martel732


 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 11:36:34


Post by: The Newman


BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

"Whatever else may happen; we have Centurions, and they do not."


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 11:50:51


Post by: kingheff


Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 12:38:38


Post by: Ice_can


 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 12:47:16


Post by: Martel732


 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 13:09:35


Post by: Galas


With Space Marines, dark angels in my case, I have learned to use meele to kill the toughtest enemy units. Shooting is good but I'm no imperial fist or iron hand, most of my shooting damage comes from talonmasters and plasmas or it is anti-elite/horde infantry.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 13:26:33


Post by: Martel732


Melee is extremely hazardous and unreliable. I should know.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 13:35:31


Post by: Galas


As your core strategy, sure. As a tool to use when it is appropiate, it is not.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 13:37:10


Post by: Martel732


It's always hazardous and unreliable. It's just sometimes worth the gamble. Specifically vs invulns that don't work in melee. Tripointing takes a lot of the hazard away, though.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 14:10:49


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.
I really don't pay attention to top lists, personally, so I have no idea what they like other than Primaris and Leviathans, both of which I prefer not to use. But for my lists I do the math and work backwards. I ask "What does it take to kill X with some reliability?" In the crudest sense, and then make sure I have enough contributing elements. Some Plasma, some Grav, some Las, etc.

I mean, I COULD take 20 Vanguard with dual Plasma Pistols and deep strike them, but that's not as flexible as a combination of Devs, Razorbacks, and other distributed weapons.

...

Fyi my favorite number matchup currently is that a single TH/SS Terminator Squad can kill 3 Knight Gallants in a turn without Character support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Orange Knight wrote:
So you'd need to get 20 Plasmas in Rapid Fire range.

Theory crafting like this isn't overly helpful. I don't recall getting 20 plasma within range of what I wanted to deal with in one turn during any game against a skilful opponent.


Well, Podded Devs can guarantee you 15 at least


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 16:32:32


Post by: Ice_can


Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

The point is more that marine damage output admittedly before the last doctrine change as I haven't played since it dropped has been jacked up soo high it's made a units defensive stats worthless.

Marine's shouldn't be having an issue killing one knight when before that nerf a Tac matine list was more than capable of killing 2 knight's turn 1 even with one having a 4++.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 16:41:38


Post by: Xenomancers


Realistically...Being restricted from super doctrine for taking marine allies is a much bigger drawback than not being able to take other imperials but it is still a pretty big drawback to not be able to take assassins and things like knights and command tanks. I like the rule though. I think more armies should have the same rule actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

The point is more that marine damage output admittedly before the last doctrine change as I haven't played since it dropped has been jacked up soo high it's made a units defensive stats worthless.

Marine's shouldn't be having an issue killing one knight when before that nerf a Tac matine list was more than capable of killing 2 knight's turn 1 even with one having a 4++.

A conditional -1 AP on units that didn't change in price and some actual stratagems to use? Man wait till you see taus new changes.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 17:05:24


Post by: Canadian 5th


 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My overcharged plasmall is S8 D3 and can have reroll hits and wound rolls of 1. It pretty well replaces my need for.anything heavier.

I tend to spam it as well bringing 14 Black Knights for 28 shots. It's a little short range but it averages just over 24 Wounds against T8 4++.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 17:17:17


Post by: Martel732


 Canadian 5th wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My overcharged plasmall is S8 D3 and can have reroll hits and wound rolls of 1. It pretty well replaces my need for.anything heavier.

I tend to spam it as well bringing 14 Black Knights for 28 shots. It's a little short range but it averages just over 24 Wounds against T8 4++.


The key is to physically prevent this from getting within range.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 17:31:42


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically...Being restricted from super doctrine for taking marine allies is a much bigger drawback than not being able to take other imperials but it is still a pretty big drawback to not be able to take assassins and things like knights and command tanks. I like the rule though. I think more armies should have the same rule actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

The point is more that marine damage output admittedly before the last doctrine change as I haven't played since it dropped has been jacked up soo high it's made a units defensive stats worthless.

Marine's shouldn't be having an issue killing one knight when before that nerf a Tac matine list was more than capable of killing 2 knight's turn 1 even with one having a 4++.

A conditional -1 AP on units that didn't change in price and some actual stratagems to use? Man wait till you see taus new changes.

Except I'm not talking PA for marines.
The whole 2.0 codex with supliments and then PA on top has left them at a rediculous level of damage output.

Tau do not get reroll, upon reroll aswell as psychic powers, relics etc, they gained relics and a few strategums to make unplayed units semi viable. But they still don't have that same turn 1 alpha damage that Marines can drop.

It really is the reroll every hit, rerolling wounds and everything else that makes them oppressive to play against as surviving against the firepower they pack is rediculous.

Marines can outshoot even many of the lists supposed to be the shooting armies like Tau and Guard.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 18:06:43


Post by: Vaktathi


Ice_can wrote:

It really is the reroll every hit, rerolling wounds and everything else that makes them oppressive to play against as surviving against the firepower they pack is rediculous.
Yeah, this experience at my last tournament against a Marine list (that seemed to change subfaction at every single event ), where almost literally every single dice being thrown downrange was getting rerolls and AP bonuses, really left me feeling not super enthused about the game, and they certainly were able to match or exceed the firepower of any other gunline specific army. That kind of experience really doesn't help the hobby.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 18:16:19


Post by: kingheff


I'd still pick las cannons because you won't face an 4++ knight that often for starters and they will serve you better in most games.
In a match specifically against knight heavy plasma cannons are probably the best bet due to not needing to get within 12" to get two shots per gun and having decent range.
But to keep it relatively simple we'll pretend all our guns are on devastators in squads however big they need to be. They have a chapter master and lieutenant besides them somehow because aura's are infinitely sized in this kind of mathhammer calculation.
So you need 20 las cannon devs to take down the knight so 760 points.
We need 24 plasma cannon devs to take down the knight so 696 points.
We need 53 auto cannon devs (I guess they are havocs in disguise) to take down the knight for a whopping 1242 points.
So the plasma guys are the clear winner! Unless the knight is more than 36.1 inches away meaning you have to move to get in range so you die on a roll of a one or a two if you want to overcharge. Or you want to shoot a flyer, or anything else that might happen to have a minus to hit.
But the simple answer is, if possible, kill it in melee. Smash captains are a thing for a reason and killing knights are what made them famous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My overcharged plasmall is S8 D3 and can have reroll hits and wound rolls of 1. It pretty well replaces my need for.anything heavier.

I tend to spam it as well bringing 14 Black Knights for 28 shots. It's a little short range but it averages just over 24 Wounds against T8 4++.


Dark angels plasma is very nice, that is true. But how long do your black knights tend to survive once they've parked 18" away from a knight?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 18:55:10


Post by: Martel732


Yeah but IKs aren't that dangerous in general.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 20:24:09


Post by: kingheff


Triple knights with allies were still performing pretty well competitively before the lockdown.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 20:37:23


Post by: Martel732


I suspect strongly the allies were critical. The shooting ability of an IK is quite poor for it cost now generally speaking. Castellans are only above average now, meaning I can ignore the other IKs if I have to.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 20:42:43


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Martel732 wrote:
I suspect strongly the allies were critical. The shooting ability of an IK is quite poor for it cost now generally speaking. Castellans are only above average now, meaning I can ignore the other IKs if I have to.

Bingo. Bring the Knights down a damage table (you can only Strat one to keep it at the top of the table after all), kill allies, and then finish off the Knights.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 21:03:20


Post by: kingheff


So according to the four top four placings in February and March the lists were three knights plus...the rusty 17 plus a couple of dunecrawlers; 15 scions and three tank commanders; rusty seventeen, thirty guardsmen and two tank commanders and finally rusty seventeen plus three skorpius disintigrators.
So not really, the allies were giving the knights cp in traditional fashion whilst the knights do the vast majority of the work.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 21:21:13


Post by: Martel732


Two tank commanders is nothing to sneeze at. They have more firepower/pt than an IK. I'm more scared of those allies than the IKs honestly.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 21:39:58


Post by: Ice_can


 kingheff wrote:
So according to the four top four placings in February and March the lists were three knights plus...the rusty 17 plus a couple of dunecrawlers; 15 scions and three tank commanders; rusty seventeen, thirty guardsmen and two tank commanders and finally rusty seventeen plus three skorpius disintigrators.
So not really, the allies were giving the knights cp in traditional fashion whilst the knights do the vast majority of the work.

Martel hit the nail on the head in that it's the allies bringing a lot of work to those lists, screens are game breaking against certain lists.
A Tank commander outshoots even a crusader due to their inherent buffs.

Additionally
Imperial soup isnt a Knights list[u] it's Imperial Faction Imperium not Knights not guard not Admech.
It's not representative of the power of Imperial Knights as a codex, It's let me cherry pick from multiple codex's then use that to claim that 1 out of the 3 codex's involved is a problem while actually pure armies still struggle to break into the 40% or better win ratio.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 21:40:27


Post by: Insectum7


 kingheff wrote:
I'd still pick las cannons because you won't face an 4++ knight that often for starters and they will serve you better in most games.
In a match specifically against knight heavy plasma cannons are probably the best bet due to not needing to get within 12" to get two shots per gun and having decent range.
But to keep it relatively simple we'll pretend all our guns are on devastators in squads however big they need to be. They have a chapter master and lieutenant besides them somehow because aura's are infinitely sized in this kind of mathhammer calculation.
So you need 20 las cannon devs to take down the knight so 760 points.
We need 24 plasma cannon devs to take down the knight so 696 points.
We need 53 auto cannon devs (I guess they are havocs in disguise) to take down the knight for a whopping 1242 points.
So the plasma guys are the clear winner! Unless the knight is more than 36.1 inches away meaning you have to move to get in range so you die on a roll of a one or a two if you want to overcharge. Or you want to shoot a flyer, or anything else that might happen to have a minus to hit.

I don't know about the other chapters but UM get a Relic aura that allows full hit and wound rerolls against a single target, which moves the equation further in favor of Plasma, plus ignoring movement penalties in Tactical Doctrine to help mitigate overcharge damage.

I like Lascannons too. The triumvirate of heavy weapons is definitely Las, Plas, Grav for my armies. The thing is though, Plasma and Grav is also fantastic for killing marine infantry, too. And there's a lot of players using marines at the moment.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 21:59:56


Post by: kingheff


Tank commanders are good for sure but they die a lot easier than a knight and can get shut down pretty easily by quick units charging into them and those lists don't have big screens to help in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
I'd still pick las cannons because you won't face an 4++ knight that often for starters and they will serve you better in most games.
In a match specifically against knight heavy plasma cannons are probably the best bet due to not needing to get within 12" to get two shots per gun and having decent range.
But to keep it relatively simple we'll pretend all our guns are on devastators in squads however big they need to be. They have a chapter master and lieutenant besides them somehow because aura's are infinitely sized in this kind of mathhammer calculation.
So you need 20 las cannon devs to take down the knight so 760 points.
We need 24 plasma cannon devs to take down the knight so 696 points.
We need 53 auto cannon devs (I guess they are havocs in disguise) to take down the knight for a whopping 1242 points.
So the plasma guys are the clear winner! Unless the knight is more than 36.1 inches away meaning you have to move to get in range so you die on a roll of a one or a two if you want to overcharge. Or you want to shoot a flyer, or anything else that might happen to have a minus to hit.

I don't know about the other chapters but UM get a Relic aura that allows full hit and wound rerolls against a single target, which moves the equation further in favor of Plasma, plus ignoring movement penalties in Tactical Doctrine to help mitigate overcharge damage.

I like Lascannons too. The triumvirate of heavy weapons is definitely Las, Plas, Grav for my armies. The thing is though, Plasma and Grav is also fantastic for killing marine infantry, too. And there's a lot of players using marines at the moment.


Agreed on all points, master artisans does wonders for las cannons, wave serpents make plasma users cry, there are so many variables in the game that you can pick out numerous examples that skew results in one way or another. I would have put Grav in my comparison but the strat makes it awkward maths wise and I was too lazy!





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
So according to the four top four placings in February and March the lists were three knights plus...the rusty 17 plus a couple of dunecrawlers; 15 scions and three tank commanders; rusty seventeen, thirty guardsmen and two tank commanders and finally rusty seventeen plus three skorpius disintigrators.
So not really, the allies were giving the knights cp in traditional fashion whilst the knights do the vast majority of the work.

Martel hit the nail on the head in that it's the allies bringing a lot of work to those lists, screens are game breaking against certain lists.
A Tank commander outshoots even a crusader due to their inherent buffs.

Additionally
Imperial soup isnt a Knights list[u] it's Imperial Faction Imperium not Knights not guard not Admech.
It's not representative of the power of Imperial Knights as a codex, It's let me cherry pick from multiple codex's then use that to claim that 1 out of the 3 codex's involved is a problem while actually pure armies still struggle to break into the 40% or better win ratio.


I thought we were discussing the value of allies in this thread?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 22:25:39


Post by: Ice_can


No The value of Allies for Marines vrs Doctorines and Super dotorines.

For some reason as usual someone tried to imply marines are too weak to kill of a knight easily without trying, which has been demonstrated to be false.

I pointed out killing a knight really shouldn't be the yard stick as they really aren't that hard to kill.
(Iron hands intercessors spam and Charictor dreadnaughts are way harder to kill.)

You randomly started something about this imperial soup list and this imperial soup list didn't do to bad at some events.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 22:38:15


Post by: kingheff


I bought up the knights lists to show that knights are still doing pretty well because it was insinuated that knights are basically useless.
The fact they scored as many top fours in March as Iron hands and Imperial fists combined, two for knights, two for Iron hands and zero for Imperial fists suggests knights still have value and certainly are better than the marine super heavies last time I checked.
With the nerf to their doctrines I actually wouldn't be suprised to see things like Iron hands intercessors with their buddies becoming stirred into imperium soup in the future.
Edit: Just looking again, Iron hands had four placings, three of them were at the same event so I only counted them as one before.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 23:00:46


Post by: Ice_can


 kingheff wrote:
I bought up the knights lists to show that knights are still doing pretty well because it was insinuated that knights are basically useless.
The fact they scored as many top fours in March as Iron hands and Imperial fists combined, two for knights, two for Iron hands and zero for Imperial fists suggests knights still have value and certainly are better than the marine super heavies last time I checked.
With the nerf to their doctrines I actually wouldn't be suprised to see things like Iron hands intercessors with their buddies becoming stirred into imperium soup in the future.
Edit: Just looking again, Iron hands had four placings, three of them were at the same event so I only counted them as one before.

Are those Knights lists mono codex lists?
As I doubt that and frankly being out placed by Iron hands mon subfaction vrs Imperial souping of Knights says enough about the power creep that has taken place.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/22 23:47:48


Post by: Martel732


Ice_can wrote:
No The value of Allies for Marines vrs Doctorines and Super dotorines.

For some reason as usual someone tried to imply marines are too weak to kill of a knight easily without trying, which has been demonstrated to be false.

I pointed out killing a knight really shouldn't be the yard stick as they really aren't that hard to kill.
(Iron hands intercessors spam and Charictor dreadnaughts are way harder to kill.)

You randomly started something about this imperial soup list and this imperial soup list didn't do to bad at some events.


They actually are pretty hard to kill, they just aren't worth the effort much of the time.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/23 07:14:27


Post by: kingheff


Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
I bought up the knights lists to show that knights are still doing pretty well because it was insinuated that knights are basically useless.
The fact they scored as many top fours in March as Iron hands and Imperial fists combined, two for knights, two for Iron hands and zero for Imperial fists suggests knights still have value and certainly are better than the marine super heavies last time I checked.
With the nerf to their doctrines I actually wouldn't be suprised to see things like Iron hands intercessors with their buddies becoming stirred into imperium soup in the future.
Edit: Just looking again, Iron hands had four placings, three of them were at the same event so I only counted them as one before.

Are those Knights lists mono codex lists?
As I doubt that and frankly being out placed by Iron hands mon subfaction vrs Imperial souping of Knights says enough about the power creep that has taken place.


We already discussed the composition of the lists so...no, they're not mono faction. But they are all around 1400+ points of knights so definitely knight lists. I suspect the dominance of marines has actually helped knights out, armies gearing up to kill MEQ has probably given them a decent survivability buff and they almost become a counter meta pick. This is all just my speculation of course.
But to get back to the original point, I suspect the answer depends on the subfaction of marines. I can definitely see value in souping in a Salamander vanguard detachment to include a relic scorpius whirlwind, just to give it +1 to wound via the strat, into a guard list for example. Or to soup in knights on top of an Ironhand infantry castle. I only play Salamanders occasionally so I haven't thought too deeply about it but I suspect that there are unit/strat combo's that don't need doctrines to be effective so may see play in the future.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/23 14:39:33


Post by: Gadzilla666


Ok, so apparently 9th edition is going to give more cp for playing mono faction. So considering that loyalist marines are already very good as a stand alone army, how much better is this going to make them? Especially compared to factions that are currently most competitive as soup?


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/23 14:56:51


Post by: Aash


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so apparently 9th edition is going to give more cp for playing mono faction. So considering that loyalist marines are already very good as a stand alone army, how much better is this going to make them? Especially compared to factions that are currently most competitive as soup?


Until the new rules drop its too hard to say. Changes to melee (at least for vehicles), “blast weapons” and who knows what else might have more impact than changes to how CP are generated.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/23 15:00:23


Post by: Ice_can


They have also implied they are going to be changing points aswell so I think it's probably going to be a few months of random swings as different pieces fall into place, as the base rule changes might help and hinder in ways not expected.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/23 19:34:37


Post by: Eldarain


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so apparently 9th edition is going to give more cp for playing mono faction. So considering that loyalist marines are already very good as a stand alone army, how much better is this going to make them? Especially compared to factions that are currently most competitive as soup?

As everything for me is through the Word Bearers/Broken Marines prism, this is what I'm most interested in initially.

This whole Chaos didn't get Doctrines because they're designed to soup thing is going to be extra irritating if Marines get maxed out CP and Doctrines as a "Drawback" while what little identity and functionality I'm given dries up with my depleted soup CP pool


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/23 21:38:59


Post by: BrianDavion


 Eldarain wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so apparently 9th edition is going to give more cp for playing mono faction. So considering that loyalist marines are already very good as a stand alone army, how much better is this going to make them? Especially compared to factions that are currently most competitive as soup?

As everything for me is through the Word Bearers/Broken Marines prism, this is what I'm most interested in initially.

This whole Chaos didn't get Doctrines because they're designed to soup thing is going to be extra irritating if Marines get maxed out CP and Doctrines as a "Drawback" while what little identity and functionality I'm given dries up with my depleted soup CP pool


CSMs really need a codex redesign.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/24 00:14:27


Post by: Gadzilla666


BrianDavion wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so apparently 9th edition is going to give more cp for playing mono faction. So considering that loyalist marines are already very good as a stand alone army, how much better is this going to make them? Especially compared to factions that are currently most competitive as soup?

As everything for me is through the Word Bearers/Broken Marines prism, this is what I'm most interested in initially.

This whole Chaos didn't get Doctrines because they're designed to soup thing is going to be extra irritating if Marines get maxed out CP and Doctrines as a "Drawback" while what little identity and functionality I'm given dries up with my depleted soup CP pool


CSMs really need a codex redesign.

Agreed, most factions probably will under the new rules, but csm especially rely on soup and cp.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/24 00:31:06


Post by: Canadian 5th


 kingheff wrote:
Dark angels plasma is very nice, that is true. But how long do your black knights tend to survive once they've parked 18" away from a knight?

That can depend heavily on what's left and how well-positioned the rest of my opponent's force is. It also depends on how well Transhuman Physiology does for me; the terrain; if I've called down the Deathwing Knights yet and the mission itself. It can be anything from wiped out to the man to one squad hanging on by a model, to both squads only losing a couple of bikes.

There are games where it's going to be a winning trade and games where it won't be and that's what keeps my list from being a top table threat.


Is not taking allies a drawback for loyalist marines? @ 2020/05/24 02:19:11


Post by: BrianDavion


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, so apparently 9th edition is going to give more cp for playing mono faction. So considering that loyalist marines are already very good as a stand alone army, how much better is this going to make them? Especially compared to factions that are currently most competitive as soup?

As everything for me is through the Word Bearers/Broken Marines prism, this is what I'm most interested in initially.

This whole Chaos didn't get Doctrines because they're designed to soup thing is going to be extra irritating if Marines get maxed out CP and Doctrines as a "Drawback" while what little identity and functionality I'm given dries up with my depleted soup CP pool


CSMs really need a codex redesign.

Agreed, most factions probably will under the new rules, but csm especially rely on soup and cp.


I think some armies could soldier on through the new edition without a new codex, Space Marines, and their loyalist cousins for example work well as stand alone armies right now.

granted chaos might be able to work as a soup irregardless depending on how bad the penalties for taking additional detachments are. There is also, IMHO room to give some HQs an ability to reduce or ignore the penalties for souping. such as giving Abaddon, whose noted for his ability to unite chaos a special rule via FAQ that notes "if Abaddon is your warlord, you may ignore the CP cost of one additional detachment" for example.