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Martel732 wrote:I know. But the scorpius might get nerfed to be more in line with whirlwinds. That's my hope anyway.

Busting the dreads down to BS 3+ would be nice too so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

I'd be cool with contemptors going back to what they were in 7th: BS 3+, WS 2+ if they got fleet back in some form.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.

ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

Do you really want those? Would you trade TFCs for them?

"I'd be cool with contemptors going back to what they were in 7th: BS 3+, WS 2+ if they got fleet back in some form."

Better than another BS 2+ pillbox.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:I know. But the scorpius might get nerfed to be more in line with whirlwinds. That's my hope anyway.

Busting the dreads down to BS 3+ would be nice too so they don't stick out like a sore thumb.

I'd be cool with contemptors going back to what they were in 7th: BS 3+, WS 2+ if they got fleet back in some form.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.

ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

Do you really want those? Would you trade TFCs for them?

.depending on the edition I might , also given the TFC is resin I don't actually have one I hate working with finecast

but I missed a smily emojii so perhaps people took my comment more seriously then it was intended. Still the point is valid that each of the codices has their own unique flavor units. That said if GW released a plastic TFC (it's resin after all) I'd expect to see it with a primaris tech marine and avaliable to everyone.

I'm still disappointed in GW that they didn't get around to making the Thunderfire Cannon as a plastic kit.

Great, another thread derailed by a certain someone complaining about Infantry Squads - a unit that hasn't been meta relevant since the updated SM Codex was released (if not before).

Anyway, it's obviously, strictly speaking, a drawback that SM lose bonuses once they soup. They're one of the few armies that do so and they do lack cheap bodies which allies can provide. However, it's not a "real" drawback for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the benefits they get are ridiculously good, more than compensating for the "loss" of allies. Secondly, those cheap bodies and cheap CP generators are nowhere near as attractive an option as they once were. SM Troops are now good enough that a dual battalion is viable without being a major disadvantage so CP generation is not a problem. The cheap bodies can be replaced by more expensive but much more durable Troops like Intercessors who will happily sit on a backfield objective and use Bolter Discipline to contribute very effectively to the battle.

I used to ally Knights and Guard with my Astartes and feel the loss of the allies is significant.

I often chose to ally in models even if I lose the Doctrines for my home-brew chapter.

I don't min/max the doctrines however. If I was running Master Artisans and Stealthy I would probably run a mono Marine force...

BrianDavion wrote:
.depending on the edition I might , also given the TFC is resin I don't actually have one I hate working with finecast

but I missed a smily emojii so perhaps people took my comment more seriously then it was intended. Still the point is valid that each of the codices has their own unique flavor units. That said if GW released a plastic TFC (it's resin after all) I'd expect to see it with a primaris tech marine and avaliable to everyone.

Dysartes wrote:I'm still disappointed in GW that they didn't get around to making the Thunderfire Cannon as a plastic kit.

Plastic Thunderfires you say? Get some Kataphron Breacher/Destroyer treads, a Stalker/Hunter kit and some magnets and presto! Plastic Thunderfires. I'm most of the way done on my first, and as soon as I get me another Hunter/Stalker, I'll be able to do three of 'em. Build Techmarines to your liking. (I love the 90's era metals.)



Edit: I added a small plastic spacer ring to make a better fit and added clearance on the ones that have the gun attached. Otherwise it couldn't be a simpler build.

FW also has the Rapier weapons and those are a pretty good substitute.

Slipspace wrote:
Great, another thread derailed by a certain someone complaining about Infantry Squads - a unit that hasn't been meta relevant since the updated SM Codex was released (if not before).

Anyway, it's obviously, strictly speaking, a drawback that SM lose bonuses once they soup. They're one of the few armies that do so and they do lack cheap bodies which allies can provide. However, it's not a "real" drawback for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the benefits they get are ridiculously good, more than compensating for the "loss" of allies. Secondly, those cheap bodies and cheap CP generators are nowhere near as attractive an option as they once were. SM Troops are now good enough that a dual battalion is viable without being a major disadvantage so CP generation is not a problem. The cheap bodies can be replaced by more expensive but much more durable Troops like Intercessors who will happily sit on a backfield objective and use Bolter Discipline to contribute very effectively to the battle.

You know I'm beginning to think you don't understand what a complaint is. I simply said its a significant loss because they are so cheap.

I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.

I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Probably drop pods.

 kingheff wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.

I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Pods for Grav. Although usually I use Plasma on some squads for the 36" Range and higher strength. Grav is just the simplest way to get tons of shots. My lists get to 70+ AP -3 shots without leaning on the full Grav squads though, meaning I could hit 100 if I pushed for it.

It's an anti-marine skew build. Pretty savvy right now, but fails vs cheap models. And marine players who cough up for infiltrators.

Basically it turns intercessors into one wound marines at great cost to itself. Grav cannons are not good in general, but vs primaris they are.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.

I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Pods for Grav. Although usually I use Plasma on some squads for the 36" Range and higher strength. Grav is just the simplest way to get tons of shots. My lists get to 70+ AP -3 shots without leaning on the full Grav squads though, meaning I could hit 100 if I pushed for it.

So not 500 PTS then, it also leaves two drop pods which your opponent can now hug to avoid getting shot.
It's not that it's impossible to get to ludicrous amounts of firepower, it's more that it's very difficult to build good all round lists that can survive going second etc.

Pods survive going second automatically. I actually lean on Rhinos quite a bit to absorb 1st turn fire pretty often, too. I also use the transports to push my drop count lower to give me a better chance for the alpha.

Not saying it's an amazing list, but it gets me by. You're going to laugh, I use 10 man Tactical Squads too

I run salamanders, I don't laugh at tactical.

You're kind of acting like its an amazing list.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
I do love these discussions where "every army" can spam 70 -3 ap shots on top of being able to kill 50 guardsmen as well. I really must be bad at this game because I'm lucky if my lists can do either of those things, let alone both!

3 Devastator Squads with Grav Cannons alpha strikes with 60 AP-3 D3D shots. The other 1500 points can probably manage to kill 50 guardsmen and squeeze in another 10 AP -3 shots.

I assume we're talking raven guard to get your grav in range without getting shot off the board first or are you using drop pods? There's a big difference between theoretical output and real world output once annoying things like range and terrain get factored in.

Pods for Grav. Although usually I use Plasma on some squads for the 36" Range and higher strength. Grav is just the simplest way to get tons of shots. My lists get to 70+ AP -3 shots without leaning on the full Grav squads though, meaning I could hit 100 if I pushed for it.

Don't forget Grav has that tasty Strat to give them a free reroll to wound. Combine Chapter Master and that for shenanigans.

But I wasn't referring to pods when going second, more that a good list has to survive going second and if you're squeezing too much dakka in you're having to cut corners somewhere else.

 kingheff wrote:
But I wasn't referring to pods when going second, more that a good list has to survive going second and if you're squeezing too much dakka in you're having to cut corners somewhere else.

Well, of course listbuilding is all about making tradeoffs. Listbuilding wouldn't be very interesting if you could just take all of the things all the time. You were wondering how a list gets 70+ AP-3 shots and I'm just telling you how I do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[
Don't forget Grav has that tasty Strat to give them a free reroll to wound. Combine Chapter Master and that for shenanigans.

Not only that, but if I take the Oath I can give those rerolls to everyone in the army against a single target if I want to.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
But I wasn't referring to pods when going second, more that a good list has to survive going second and if you're squeezing too much dakka in you're having to cut corners somewhere else.

Well, of course listbuilding is all about making tradeoffs. Listbuilding wouldn't be very interesting if you could just take all of the things all the time. You were wondering how a list gets 70+ AP-3 shots and I'm just telling you how I do it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
[
Don't forget Grav has that tasty Strat to give them a free reroll to wound. Combine Chapter Master and that for shenanigans.

Not only that, but if I take the Oath I can give those rerolls to everyone in the army against a single target if I want to.

I wasn't doubting that it's possible, especially for marines, but marines are far from what most armies can bring to the table at the moment. Even then the iron hands intercessor list doesn't bring anything like that, nor did the aeldari air force. My point was that people tend to get caught up with what the worse case scenario of what they could face rather than the reality of actual lists.

Well, as they say: "Hope for the best but prepare for the worst." If you're prepared for the worst, then when not-the-worst comes along you won't think it's so terrible.

It's mostly that it annoys me when people say unit xyz is worthless because every army has ten thousand guns that kill it without even rolling when plenty of armies/players have virtually no guns or uses mortal wounds or just clog up the board with bodies or have, I don't know a TAC list that doesn't spam any type of weapon.

 kingheff wrote:
It's mostly that it annoys me when people say unit xyz is worthless because every army has ten thousand guns that kill it without even rolling when plenty of armies/players have virtually no guns or uses mortal wounds or just clog up the board with bodies or have, I don't know a TAC list that doesn't spam any type of weapon.

TAC lists usually try to hit a couple of basic thresholds in terms of anti-tank and anti-horde firepower.

You generally want to be able to remove 24+ T8 4++ protected wounds per turn or risk being destroyed by Knights.

You also probably want the option to remove/neutralize 60+ ork boyz in a turn as well or risk being overwhelmed.

This is part of why things like Plasma and auto cannons are so in favour as they fit many roles and are rarely wasted against any common list.

Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

For marine's with reroll your reroll of a reroll aura, relics, litanies, it works plenty well enough.

 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

While they might often need a bit more than just those two weapons, Space Marines are capable of fielding a lot of those types of guns and their ridiculous number of re-rolls makes them extremely effective against...well, anything. Including Knights. It's one of the reasons the no-allies "drawback" for SM really isn't one. Their various buffs and special rules effectively remove the need for the sort of volume of fire you get from massed Guard guns, for example. Add in abilities like the Siegebreaker Cohort (or whatever that IF formation is called) and you can take down the toughest of targets with bolter fire.

 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).