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Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Vaktathi wrote:
In my own personal experience, the only reason I really see people taking allies is for some sort of advantage that their own faction doesn't have, as opposed to any narrative/fluff reasons. With respect to Loyalist Space Marines, about the allies I ever saw were the standard Guard CP battery or a Knight. With the Castellan nerfed, most of the Knight allies disappeared, and the CP battery doesn't come anywhere near matching the power of the new SM bonus rules, so they of course disappeared overnight as well. It's difficult to see where Loyalist Space Marines are suffering any sort of downside. They're still free to take allies if they want, they just don't get as many of their insanely overamped special rules, and most importantly as noted, rules that most other factions don't have equivalents of anyway.

Anyone making the argument that such is a "drawback" I'd have to argue is being disingenuous. In the strictest most literal sense, sure it's a drawback, but not in any meaningful practical sense.

EDIT: spelling


Biggest loss is probably assasins. Sniper and anti psyker ones are pretty good and as you can choose which to use depending on opponent you never really have wasted unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What's alternative? Lascannons? You said yourself reason(4++) why lascannons arent' actually that good AT weapons. There's reason why people have long time ago(before 8th ed even) from single shot high S good AP weapons for AT purposes

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 08:52:44


12 factions for Lord of The Rings
4663
11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
5265 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights

 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference. Using S7 or less weapons to take out knights isn't a great plan. It's why I'm not a big fan of star cannon spam in Craftworlds lists, if doom doesn't go off your anti tank is too greatly reduced.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 09:01:27


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.
   
Made in gb
Space Marine Scout with Sniper Rifle





So you'd need to get 20 Plasmas in Rapid Fire range.

Theory crafting like this isn't overly helpful. I don't recall getting 20 plasma within range of what I wanted to deal with in one turn during any game against a skilful opponent.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





BrianDavion wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Fine. There's the helios. Which is better than most factions, I suppose. I fething hate FW.

That's your hang up. We're talking about the entire available range, not just what you like. Still odd the non-codex chapters don't get TFCs.


ehh gotta give vanilla Marines something unique to make up for the fact that we don't get Wolf Wolf Wolves, Something wing whatevers, and Death Company thingamabobs

"Whatever else may happen; we have Centurions, and they do not."

   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 12:39:49


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 12:48:02


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

With Space Marines, dark angels in my case, I have learned to use meele to kill the toughtest enemy units. Shooting is good but I'm no imperial fist or iron hand, most of my shooting damage comes from talonmasters and plasmas or it is anti-elite/horde infantry.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Melee is extremely hazardous and unreliable. I should know.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

As your core strategy, sure. As a tool to use when it is appropiate, it is not.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




It's always hazardous and unreliable. It's just sometimes worth the gamble. Specifically vs invulns that don't work in melee. Tripointing takes a lot of the hazard away, though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 13:37:31


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.
I really don't pay attention to top lists, personally, so I have no idea what they like other than Primaris and Leviathans, both of which I prefer not to use. But for my lists I do the math and work backwards. I ask "What does it take to kill X with some reliability?" In the crudest sense, and then make sure I have enough contributing elements. Some Plasma, some Grav, some Las, etc.

I mean, I COULD take 20 Vanguard with dual Plasma Pistols and deep strike them, but that's not as flexible as a combination of Devs, Razorbacks, and other distributed weapons.

...

Fyi my favorite number matchup currently is that a single TH/SS Terminator Squad can kill 3 Knight Gallants in a turn without Character support.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Orange Knight wrote:
So you'd need to get 20 Plasmas in Rapid Fire range.

Theory crafting like this isn't overly helpful. I don't recall getting 20 plasma within range of what I wanted to deal with in one turn during any game against a skilful opponent.


Well, Podded Devs can guarantee you 15 at least

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 14:15:42


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

The point is more that marine damage output admittedly before the last doctrine change as I haven't played since it dropped has been jacked up soo high it's made a units defensive stats worthless.

Marine's shouldn't be having an issue killing one knight when before that nerf a Tac matine list was more than capable of killing 2 knight's turn 1 even with one having a 4++.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 16:35:00


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Chaplain with Hate to Spare






Realistically...Being restricted from super doctrine for taking marine allies is a much bigger drawback than not being able to take other imperials but it is still a pretty big drawback to not be able to take assassins and things like knights and command tanks. I like the rule though. I think more armies should have the same rule actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

The point is more that marine damage output admittedly before the last doctrine change as I haven't played since it dropped has been jacked up soo high it's made a units defensive stats worthless.

Marine's shouldn't be having an issue killing one knight when before that nerf a Tac matine list was more than capable of killing 2 knight's turn 1 even with one having a 4++.

A conditional -1 AP on units that didn't change in price and some actual stratagems to use? Man wait till you see taus new changes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 16:43:55


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My overcharged plasmall is S8 D3 and can have reroll hits and wound rolls of 1. It pretty well replaces my need for.anything heavier.

I tend to spam it as well bringing 14 Black Knights for 28 shots. It's a little short range but it averages just over 24 Wounds against T8 4++.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 Canadian 5th wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My overcharged plasmall is S8 D3 and can have reroll hits and wound rolls of 1. It pretty well replaces my need for.anything heavier.

I tend to spam it as well bringing 14 Black Knights for 28 shots. It's a little short range but it averages just over 24 Wounds against T8 4++.


The key is to physically prevent this from getting within range.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
Realistically...Being restricted from super doctrine for taking marine allies is a much bigger drawback than not being able to take other imperials but it is still a pretty big drawback to not be able to take assassins and things like knights and command tanks. I like the rule though. I think more armies should have the same rule actually.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Spoiler:
 kingheff wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.


What do you think is better?


Melee combat for marines, knights don't like smash captains. I'm not saying that those weapons won't contribute but it's a bad plan to try and take down a 4++ knight with all rounder weapons.


It's no longer a 4++ IK in melee. That's not really a fair answer, imo. Which other GUNS are better?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
It takes 80 auto cannon shots, hitting on 3's, re-rolling 1's to hit and wound to take out a knight, for reference.
Certain armies can take down a knight with just shooting in a round but it's not done using all rounder weapons. Using the extremes of marine shooting is not illustrative of the game as a whole. Even marines will often use melee to finish off a knight, that's when they're more vulnerable.


Posting again because it was the last post on the previous page and I think you missed it:


My math says about 40 plasma shots under full rerolls to take out a Castellan, slightly fewer with a couple Signums. That's three Dev squads and a few friends. 60 Grav shots does it, so exactly three Dev squads. (I didn't count them as moving, but I also didn't count Signums or extra damage from the Stratagem).

Plasma and Grav are the epitome of all-rounder weapons. It takes about 20ish Lascannon shots to get a Castellan down too, but it's more restrictive a weapon, AND the increased number of shots of the Plasma and Grav easily make up the difference.


Yep, I did miss it. Thanks for resposting. How many top lists do you see with that kind of loadout though? You might see a grav bomb in some lists, or some plasma but you see plenty of las cannons on dreads, for example, in most lists. Not everything, thank goodness, has a 4++. Marines seem to be relying on centurians chopping up knights more than shooting them from how things were before the lockdown started.

Marines have plenty of ways to do it, double repulsor executioners, seighbraker cohort, not to mention just throwing buckets of dice when you have full rerolls on hit and multiple rerolls on wounds to.

While lossing doctrines its more the super doctrine loss that is a nerf for taking allies, when GW have not only nerfed the codex but also multiple supplements and they are still winning events and returning impressive results marines are not exactly depending on allies anyway.

However for all people compalin about Knight's which don't have base 4++ they have a 5++, (and need a warlord trait for 4++ vrs shooting) they simply are not that durable for thier points.


Because they have a high cost per wound.

The point is more that marine damage output admittedly before the last doctrine change as I haven't played since it dropped has been jacked up soo high it's made a units defensive stats worthless.

Marine's shouldn't be having an issue killing one knight when before that nerf a Tac matine list was more than capable of killing 2 knight's turn 1 even with one having a 4++.

A conditional -1 AP on units that didn't change in price and some actual stratagems to use? Man wait till you see taus new changes.

Except I'm not talking PA for marines.
The whole 2.0 codex with supliments and then PA on top has left them at a rediculous level of damage output.

Tau do not get reroll, upon reroll aswell as psychic powers, relics etc, they gained relics and a few strategums to make unplayed units semi viable. But they still don't have that same turn 1 alpha damage that Marines can drop.

It really is the reroll every hit, rerolling wounds and everything else that makes them oppressive to play against as surviving against the firepower they pack is rediculous.

Marines can outshoot even many of the lists supposed to be the shooting armies like Tau and Guard.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 17:34:26


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

Ice_can wrote:

It really is the reroll every hit, rerolling wounds and everything else that makes them oppressive to play against as surviving against the firepower they pack is rediculous.
Yeah, this experience at my last tournament against a Marine list (that seemed to change subfaction at every single event ), where almost literally every single dice being thrown downrange was getting rerolls and AP bonuses, really left me feeling not super enthused about the game, and they certainly were able to match or exceed the firepower of any other gunline specific army. That kind of experience really doesn't help the hobby.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





I'd still pick las cannons because you won't face an 4++ knight that often for starters and they will serve you better in most games.
In a match specifically against knight heavy plasma cannons are probably the best bet due to not needing to get within 12" to get two shots per gun and having decent range.
But to keep it relatively simple we'll pretend all our guns are on devastators in squads however big they need to be. They have a chapter master and lieutenant besides them somehow because aura's are infinitely sized in this kind of mathhammer calculation.
So you need 20 las cannon devs to take down the knight so 760 points.
We need 24 plasma cannon devs to take down the knight so 696 points.
We need 53 auto cannon devs (I guess they are havocs in disguise) to take down the knight for a whopping 1242 points.
So the plasma guys are the clear winner! Unless the knight is more than 36.1 inches away meaning you have to move to get in range so you die on a roll of a one or a two if you want to overcharge. Or you want to shoot a flyer, or anything else that might happen to have a minus to hit.
But the simple answer is, if possible, kill it in melee. Smash captains are a thing for a reason and killing knights are what made them famous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
 kingheff wrote:
Good luck trying to take down a 4++ knight with auto cannons and plasma.

My overcharged plasmall is S8 D3 and can have reroll hits and wound rolls of 1. It pretty well replaces my need for.anything heavier.

I tend to spam it as well bringing 14 Black Knights for 28 shots. It's a little short range but it averages just over 24 Wounds against T8 4++.


Dark angels plasma is very nice, that is true. But how long do your black knights tend to survive once they've parked 18" away from a knight?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 18:23:20


 
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Yeah but IKs aren't that dangerous in general.
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





Triple knights with allies were still performing pretty well competitively before the lockdown.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I suspect strongly the allies were critical. The shooting ability of an IK is quite poor for it cost now generally speaking. Castellans are only above average now, meaning I can ignore the other IKs if I have to.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Martel732 wrote:
I suspect strongly the allies were critical. The shooting ability of an IK is quite poor for it cost now generally speaking. Castellans are only above average now, meaning I can ignore the other IKs if I have to.

Bingo. Bring the Knights down a damage table (you can only Strat one to keep it at the top of the table after all), kill allies, and then finish off the Knights.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Swift Swooping Hawk





So according to the four top four placings in February and March the lists were three knights plus...the rusty 17 plus a couple of dunecrawlers; 15 scions and three tank commanders; rusty seventeen, thirty guardsmen and two tank commanders and finally rusty seventeen plus three skorpius disintigrators.
So not really, the allies were giving the knights cp in traditional fashion whilst the knights do the vast majority of the work.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Two tank commanders is nothing to sneeze at. They have more firepower/pt than an IK. I'm more scared of those allies than the IKs honestly.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 kingheff wrote:
So according to the four top four placings in February and March the lists were three knights plus...the rusty 17 plus a couple of dunecrawlers; 15 scions and three tank commanders; rusty seventeen, thirty guardsmen and two tank commanders and finally rusty seventeen plus three skorpius disintigrators.
So not really, the allies were giving the knights cp in traditional fashion whilst the knights do the vast majority of the work.

Martel hit the nail on the head in that it's the allies bringing a lot of work to those lists, screens are game breaking against certain lists.
A Tank commander outshoots even a crusader due to their inherent buffs.

Additionally
Imperial soup isnt a Knights list[u] it's Imperial Faction Imperium not Knights not guard not Admech.
It's not representative of the power of Imperial Knights as a codex, It's let me cherry pick from multiple codex's then use that to claim that 1 out of the 3 codex's involved is a problem while actually pure armies still struggle to break into the 40% or better win ratio.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/22 21:41:31


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 kingheff wrote:
I'd still pick las cannons because you won't face an 4++ knight that often for starters and they will serve you better in most games.
In a match specifically against knight heavy plasma cannons are probably the best bet due to not needing to get within 12" to get two shots per gun and having decent range.
But to keep it relatively simple we'll pretend all our guns are on devastators in squads however big they need to be. They have a chapter master and lieutenant besides them somehow because aura's are infinitely sized in this kind of mathhammer calculation.
So you need 20 las cannon devs to take down the knight so 760 points.
We need 24 plasma cannon devs to take down the knight so 696 points.
We need 53 auto cannon devs (I guess they are havocs in disguise) to take down the knight for a whopping 1242 points.
So the plasma guys are the clear winner! Unless the knight is more than 36.1 inches away meaning you have to move to get in range so you die on a roll of a one or a two if you want to overcharge. Or you want to shoot a flyer, or anything else that might happen to have a minus to hit.

I don't know about the other chapters but UM get a Relic aura that allows full hit and wound rerolls against a single target, which moves the equation further in favor of Plasma, plus ignoring movement penalties in Tactical Doctrine to help mitigate overcharge damage.

I like Lascannons too. The triumvirate of heavy weapons is definitely Las, Plas, Grav for my armies. The thing is though, Plasma and Grav is also fantastic for killing marine infantry, too. And there's a lot of players using marines at the moment.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/22 21:43:01


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
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