After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.
Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.
As my book delivery is quite delayed (looks like this coming Saturday), can you tell me the points for the various guns? What's the basic loadout?
I hear 220 a lot but is that with stormcannon arrays or CCW?
What's the new Volkite profile on it?
Anyway, it's overall less survivable that before (T7, 5++), worse BS, loses core (I think? is that correct?), but a lot cheaper, and now has the option for decent Volkite guns that will likely actually get used (as opposed to old 8" flamers that usually did. . . literally nothing). Also gets more attacks when guns are equipped. Seems like an okay tradeoff to bring it in line with plastic dreads.
Personally I like it but I would have liked it to stay a little beefier (T8) just for fluff reasons and matching the way it looks. Also melta wounding on 4s instead of 3s now is kind of a big deal, but a 5++ does help. I mean seriously look at that thicc boi and tell me he looks less tough than an Ironclad boxnought.
Volkites are Heavy 4, S5/6, no Ap and 2 Damage, with each wound of 6 doing an additional Mortal Wound. Would probably take them over the Heavy Flamers to be honest, but the range increase on the HFs would definitely help them out.
Overall it's a still a good unit especially with the significant price cut. I'll still be using mine, but it might take a while for the stigma (I guess) to wear out, for it to not be considered an auto-take/OP unit.
Loyalist leviathans seem like a decent unit, not quite backfield camper and too pricey for assault variant from my perspective. The 24" grav flux bombard is why it's a consideration at all since storm cannons aged badly.
The chaos version isn't worth considering unless you want it up close to die due to the shorter 18" grav flux for unknown reason.
Deredeos otoh are better than ever I think so that makes up for it.
Loyalist leviathans seem like a decent unit, not quite backfield camper and too pricey for assault variant from my perspective. The 24" grav flux bombard is why it's a consideration at all since storm cannons aged badly.
The chaos version isn't worth considering unless you want it up close to die due to the shorter 18" grav flux for unknown reason.
Deredeos otoh are better than ever I think so that makes up for it.
lol, i didnt actually realise they had different ranges.
I'm still going to run a leviathan in my night lords, double clawed for her pleasure.
It being a lot cheaper makes it easier to run imo, even with the nerfs.
Ya it's a weird difference maybe a typo who knows. Props to you for running a full combat version. I lean on other units for that role already so I'll be busting out ye old venerated sicaran now. I think the deredeo beats it out in shear damage, sometimes durability too but the sicaran has range and cool factor going for it. Plus it's black and that matters.
Loyalist leviathans seem like a decent unit, not quite backfield camper and too pricey for assault variant from my perspective. The 24" grav flux bombard is why it's a consideration at all since storm cannons aged badly.
The chaos version isn't worth considering unless you want it up close to die due to the shorter 18" grav flux for unknown reason.
Deredeos otoh are better than ever I think so that makes up for it.
lol, i didnt actually realise they had different ranges.
I'm still going to run a leviathan in my night lords, double clawed for her pleasure.
It being a lot cheaper makes it easier to run imo, even with the nerfs.
Yup, another typo, another email to gw. *sigh* WOULD YOU PLEASE HIRE A PROOFREADER GW!
Anyways, I'll still bring my Leviathan out from time to time. He won't eat up as many points, and at least now he can have some missiles in that rack above his head. Just too cool of a model to let it gather dust.
I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.
Deredeo went to 190 base with anvilus battery now heavy 8 S7 ap2 2d and a hvy bolter. Now only 12w but duty eternal and of course cp tax. But the volkite falconet is interesting. 36" heavy 6 s8 ap2 d2 and 6s to wound is additional 2 mortals. That's a slick weapon for 10 pts more.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.
Guess I'll just keep waiting.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.
Guess I'll just keep waiting.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)
Hey at least now Contemptors, leviathans and deredeos can take their volkite weaponry. And levis finally get to use their missiles.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.
Guess I'll just keep waiting.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)
Hey at least now Contemptors, leviathans and deredeos can take their volkite weaponry. And levis finally get to use their missiles.
The missiles were already available in 8th - the AA missiles for Deredeos are "new", though.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.
Guess I'll just keep waiting.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)
Hey at least now Contemptors, leviathans and deredeos can take their volkite weaponry. And levis finally get to use their missiles.
The missiles were already available in 8th - the AA missiles for Deredeos are "new", though.
agreed, especially when the ironclad apparently has enough extra armor to get that +1T over other dreads yet the leviathan that's so much thiccer than it still is t7
broxus wrote: After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.
Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.
Thoughts.
6 eradicators will one round it.
It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.
broxus wrote: After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.
Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.
Thoughts.
6 eradicators will one round it.
It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.
To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.
broxus wrote: After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.
Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.
Thoughts.
6 eradicators will one round it.
It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.
To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.
Comparing anything to eradicators is silly, but since he gave wrong numbers in the first post, I was correcting them.
Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?
Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?
I dunno. I think it got spammed too much and so *whack with the stick*. I personally find the odds of the Imperium keeping anything running that long to be basically zero, so in my mind they should be in 40K at all. Except maybe for chaos. Of course I don't understand how they keep anything running, either.
Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?
I dunno. I think it got spammed too much and so *whack with the stick*. I personally find the odds of the Imperium keeping anything running that long to be basically zero, so in my mind they should be in 40K at all. Except maybe for chaos. Of course I don't understand how they keep anything running, either.
Dropping them to WS/BS 3+ and nerfing the invuln was enough.
And chaos still has forgeworlds with the original stolen STCs to build them. Also warpsmits have the heresy-era knowledge to maintain them.
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually. But i think very few imperial units should have an invuln, if any.
SecondTime wrote: Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.
Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.
SecondTime wrote: Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.
Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.
It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.
SecondTime wrote: Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.
Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.
It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.
actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8
SecondTime wrote: Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.
Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.
It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.
actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8
But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.
Loadout optimisation has changed imo, and I really do think one CC and one gun is the way to go, as they get a big chunk of attacks now, and it helps kep their cost down. 3 HKMs, 2 volkites, a gun and a fist clock in around 255pts. Solid.
SecondTime wrote: Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.
Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.
It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.
actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8
But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.
yes, against ap -5 weapons the levi wins in durability but most armies struggle to get that much ap on their guns.
The leviathan was not that strong before codex 2.0 for LSM, and for CSM they were only really good with the purge but thats because CSM in general lack good tanks.
I wouldve much prefered that the leviathan lost some of its damage dealing ability but kept its durability. Everything is already blowing up right now with the revamped weapons profiles, having a dedicated "tough" dreadnought wouldve been an interesting addition to the game, especially for CSM that don't get access to T8 helbrute, unlike LSM
broxus wrote: After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.
Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.
Thoughts.
6 eradicators will one round it.
It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.
To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.
Comparing anything to eradicators is silly, but since he gave wrong numbers in the first post, I was correcting them.
He didn't give the wrong numbers. He appears to have been using the standard assault melta rifles for his numbers, you appear to be using the optional heavy meltas.
SecondTime wrote: Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.
Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.
It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.
actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8
But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.
yes, against ap -5 weapons the levi wins in durability but most armies struggle to get that much ap on their guns.
The leviathan was not that strong before codex 2.0 for LSM, and for CSM they were only really good with the purge but thats because CSM in general lack good tanks.
I wouldve much prefered that the leviathan lost some of its damage dealing ability but kept its durability. Everything is already blowing up right now with the revamped weapons profiles, having a dedicated "tough" dreadnought wouldve been an interesting addition to the game, especially for CSM that don't get access to T8 helbrute, unlike LSM
Actually csm Leviathans are tougher against melta, lascannons, and other AT type weapons at T7 with Relentless Hatred than they were at T8. This is only a nerf for loyalists, who lost their 4++ against shooting attacks. So now csm and loyalists are actually getting the same thing for the same price. I approve of this.
Thats a good analysis and I agree its a solid unit. The deredeo takes roughly 22 erad shots to kill with smoke. Both have strong gun profiles with 3 damage potential (particularly relevant vs dreads now).
I think I'd be more enthused about the chaos leviathan if its grav wasn't 18". Thats a really poor range band ensuring it always shoots last and will get tagged quickly. Then consider it has blast to prevent shooting in combat. If it gets errata to 24" I could see mine returning.
dominuschao wrote: Thats a good analysis and I agree its a solid unit. The deredeo takes roughly 22 erad shots to kill with smoke. Both have strong gun profiles with 3 damage potential (particularly relevant vs dreads now).
I think I'd be more enthused about the chaos leviathan if its grav wasn't 18". Thats a really poor range band ensuring it always shoots last and will get tagged quickly. Then consider it has blast to prevent shooting in combat. If it gets errata to 24" I could see mine returning.
I'd guess it will be errated the other way around, with loyalist grav flux bombards dropping to 18 range, as grav flux bombards were 18 range in 8th. Just another typo. Email already sent to gw.
broxus wrote: Right now if you compare a Redemptor Dreadnaught vs a Levitation Dreadnaught
-It takes 12x eradicators melta shots to kill a Redemptor
-It takes 27x eradicators melta shots to kill a Levithan with smokescreen.
Levitation vs Redemptor vs T4 unbuffed
-14.37 vs 9.611 = 50% more damage
Levitation vs Redemptor vs T5 target unbuffed
-11.56 vs 7.63 = 52% more damage
Levitation vs Redemptor vs T7 target unbuffed
-10.96 vs 6.96 =57% more damage
Levitation vs Redemptor vs T8 target unbuffed
-8.74 vs 6.37 = 37% more damage
Remember you get all this extra dakka and defend for 35pts (grav-bombards) which amounts to 19% extra cost, 1 CP, ans loss of some close combat.
Seems pretty clear to me that the Leviathan is still an excellent value for 220pts.
I’m not disagreeing that the Leviathan is a good deal, but let’s remember Smokescreen also costs a CP. I do think the Leviathan is probably worth it, though. I mean, I’d probably still take it if it stunk, because I absolutely love the model. One of the best Space Marine models, and a fantastic kit to build and pose.
Hmm your probably right. In that case the grav bombard is a combat dread only type weapon from my perspective.
Off topic for a moment.. whats your thoughts on the HB cost for the sicarans? The somewhat hidden cost seems like a possible oversight to me. Since its the only unit I can think of that has a stock weapon and option to take more of that weapon which then results in paying pts beyond the stock cost. If any of that made sense.
dominuschao wrote: Hmm your probably right. In that case the grav bombard is a combat dread only type weapon from my perspective.
Off topic for a moment.. whats your thoughts on the HB cost for the sicarans? The somewhat hidden cost seems like a possible oversight to me. Since its the only unit I can think of that has a stock weapon and option to take more of that weapon which then results in paying pts beyond the stock cost. If any of that made sense.
It's my understanding that anything included in "this unit is equipped with" section of the datasheet is included in the basic cost of the unit. All of the various Sicarans say "A Chaos Sicaran is equipped with: heavy bolter; <insert weapon specific to this unit >", then the two optional heavy bolters are listed in the "WARGEAR OPTIONS" section of the datasheet. So the standard hull mounted heavy bolter is included in the base price, if that's what you're asking.
There are, of course, more typos that complicate this. The description for the Stormblade's basic equipment says it includes 2 heavy bolters and two lascannons, which would seem to describe its sponsons. The wargear options then say it can be equipped with two additional heavy bolters and two additional lascannons, which would seem to denote taking two more sponsons. But only the heavy bolters are listed in the units points. Another typo. If its base price includes the standard two sponsons its also significantly cheaper than a Baneblade with two sponsons, at 420 PPM vs a two sponson Baneblade at 550 PPM. Possible typo or hopefully a sign that Baneblades will be getting cheaper soon.
Ya exactly that's my impression too. The wording in the pts section confuses that but I'm not sure it wasn't just an oversight. BS erred on the side of caution costing the sicaran at 180.
dominuschao wrote: Ya exactly that's my impression too. The wording in the pts section confuses that but I'm not sure it wasn't just an oversight. BS erred on the side of caution costing the sicaran at 180.
Yeah, can't say that I like the new points system. It can be a bit confusing.
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?
dominuschao wrote: Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?
Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.
dominuschao wrote: Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?
Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.
If they nerf the range to 18” I am going to be furious I just bought a Leviathan with grav bombards. It would be insane that GW would nerf something as soon as they put the book out. I just started a new army and never had used any FW models in 8th because they were broken.
18” is a stupidly short range to make work in any game. 24” range is tough to use also, but at least you can still kill stuff if you move. Grav Cannons have a range of 30” why would a bigger gun have less range? It makes no sense. Additionally, why would they have two weapons with 18” range and the third being 36” and have nothing in between? It seems their decision is to make main guns more deadly the shorter range they have.
Let’s hope they increase the Chaos version so it has a useable option too.
dominuschao wrote: Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?
Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.
If they nerf the range to 18” I am going to be furious I just bought a Leviathan with grav bombards. It would be insane that GW would nerf something as soon as they put the book out. I just started a new army and never had used any FW models in 8th because they were broken.
18” is a stupidly short range to make work in any game. 24” range is tough to use also, but at least you can still kill stuff if you move. Grav Cannons have a range of 30” why would a bigger gun have less range? It makes no sense. Additionally, why would they have two weapons with 18” range and the third being 36” and have nothing in between? It seems their decision is to make main guns more deadly the shorter range they have.
Let’s hope they increase the Chaos version so it has a useable option too.
It's not a nerf if the 24 range for loyalists is a typo, which it most likely is. They were 18 in 8th, and they're 18 in HH. And what do you mean "24 range is tough to use"? That's the most common range for ranged weapons in the game.
24 inches has been bumped to 30 or 36 by primaris however. Because they have to be marines but better at every stat.
Gavflux bombards will probably go down to 18 inch range though.
Ice_can wrote: 24 inches has been bumped to 30 or 36 by primaris however. Because they have to be marines but better at every stat.
Gavflux bombards will probably go down to 18 inch range though.
Unlikely, but I guess possible. It is far more likely they changed it and forgot to change the chaos version. GW has done a good job at varying weapons in 9th so far to all be useful. Having two 18” guns wouldn’t make any sense.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s
Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da wehmore manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s
Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da wehmore manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).
Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)
VladimirHerzog wrote: Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)
But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...
VladimirHerzog wrote: Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)
But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...
Yeah if someone managed to get a Dread into melee they deserve that damage from the Fist. Dark Reapers have a range of what again, 36"?
VladimirHerzog wrote: Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)
But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...
Yeah if someone managed to get a Dread into melee they deserve that damage from the Fist. Dark Reapers have a range of what again, 36"?
True true. I can't even complain about Duty Eternal since it's just a serpent shield.
Wait, no, I can complain because it's a serpent shield but also works in melee. HA! Ignore the ability to shoot the shield for a second mmkay.
Deserve to be curb stomped by marines. I know, I know "it's not good for the game", but after literal decades, Eldar tears are pretty amusing. Of course, GW being GW, just made the marines curb stomp everyone. That's a lot less amusing.
SecondTime wrote: Deserve to be curb stomped by marines. I know, I know "it's not good for the game", but after literal decades, Eldar tears are pretty amusing. Of course, GW being GW, just made the marines curb stomp everyone. That's a lot less amusing.
Oh, so we're going back to the argument that because an army overperformed in the past it should be terrible now?
Not taking into account that only a few units at a time have been problematic while the rest was unplayable trash.
Thats the same as people complaining that Marines were OP back when Guilliman parking lot was the OP build.
SecondTime wrote: Deserve to be curb stomped by marines. I know, I know "it's not good for the game", but after literal decades, Eldar tears are pretty amusing. Of course, GW being GW, just made the marines curb stomp everyone. That's a lot less amusing.
Oh, so we're going back to the argument that because an army overperformed in the past it should be terrible now?
Not taking into account that only a few units at a time have been problematic while the rest was unplayable trash.
Thats the same as people complaining that Marines were OP back when Guilliman parking lot was the OP build.
No, not SHOULD be. They shouldn't be. But this is GW. So since they ARE, I'm pointing out that of all the factions suffering, the Eldar deserve it the most. I know that truly competitive players will just jump ship, but the Eldar loyalists had many, many years to soak up easy wins.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)
But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...
Yeah if someone managed to get a Dread into melee they deserve that damage from the Fist. Dark Reapers have a range of what again, 36"?
True true. I can't even complain about Duty Eternal since it's just a serpent shield.
Wait, no, I can complain because it's a serpent shield but also works in melee. HA! Ignore the ability to shoot the shield for a second mmkay.
The Serpent has a good move range and Fly. If it gets caught in melee by something able to overpower it THAT quickly deserves to kill it. Eldar players have always been entitled with their rules though.
the only reason i even have serpents is that its the only way to transport our slow units (wraiths).
And even then, running 1-2 serpents isnt the end of the world for any army to take down, its only when you spam them big time (5+) that they start being problematic
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s
Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da wehmore manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).
Dark reapers have literally been a top unit for eldar for 3 edditions in a row now. It's just hard to notice a unit like dark reapers when eldar armies consist of 55 warp spiders or 3 WK or 6 flyers and 18 shinning spears.
I used dark reapers a lot in 7th. they had a pretty amazing ability to ignore jinx then which made them god tier plus they basically got 2+ to hit just for taking 3 units of them with aspect shrine. In 8th they were literally in every eldar list until ynnari were nerfed and then eldar list deisgn changed radically. Back in 6th and 5th - they were just solid.
It is rather confusing why anyone would consider them bad.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s
Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da wehmore manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).
Dark reapers have literally been a top unit for eldar for 3 edditions in a row now. It's just hard to notice a unit like dark reapers when eldar armies consist of 55 warp spiders or 3 WK or 6 flyers and 18 shinning spears.
I used dark reapers a lot in 7th. they had a pretty amazing ability to ignore jinx then which made them god tier plus they basically got 2+ to hit just for taking 3 units of them with aspect shrine. In 8th they were literally in every eldar list until ynnari were nerfed and then eldar list deisgn changed radically. Back in 6th and 5th - they were just solid.
It is rather confusing why anyone would consider them bad.
because of their current rules/pts? You said it yourself that the last time they were played was in the Ynnari era.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.
Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.
Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.
Need the melta lance and grav flux bombard personally, but the SCA will always look cooler IMO. Still hoping they get their +1 attack for dual melee weapons back, even more so for Contemptors. Every other dread that can take two melee weapons gets it: Death Company, Furiosa, Hellbrutes....
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers.... But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s
Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da wehmore manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).
Dark reapers have literally been a top unit for eldar for 3 edditions in a row now. It's just hard to notice a unit like dark reapers when eldar armies consist of 55 warp spiders or 3 WK or 6 flyers and 18 shinning spears.
I used dark reapers a lot in 7th. they had a pretty amazing ability to ignore jinx then which made them god tier plus they basically got 2+ to hit just for taking 3 units of them with aspect shrine. In 8th they were literally in every eldar list until ynnari were nerfed and then eldar list deisgn changed radically. Back in 6th and 5th - they were just solid.
It is rather confusing why anyone would consider them bad.
because of their current rules/pts? You said it yourself that the last time they were played was in the Ynnari era.
I wholeheartedly disagree. 2 reasons
1. even after ynnari nerf with EC trait MSU 3x3 reaper units at 300 pts were really good at the end of 8th.
2. A unit of 5+ with guide and doom can just walk into obstructing terrain feature unload all the dakka and then dire and fade out of LOS.
Reapers were the only thing that done reliable damage until falcons got a hefty point drop in post PA world with EC trait.
Yes they are too expensive for T3 1W model but thats the case with every single eldar non vehicle unit.
Comparing any flavour of dreads to wraithlord wraithseer one can see how good they are. Free duty eternal is stupid good..
Even with EC, they quickly became obsolete when people started spamming starcannons. Theyre just too squishy for their points. I'm not saying theyre not playable, theyre still one of the better aspect warriors in the army and they will delete anything theyre pointed at.
Now, i really do hope that wraithlords will get duty eternal instead of what the wraithseer got.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.
Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.
Need the melta lance and grav flux bombard personally, but the SCA will always look cooler IMO. Still hoping they get their +1 attack for dual melee weapons back, even more so for Contemptors. Every other dread that can take two melee weapons gets it: Death Company, Furiosa, Hellbrutes....
Agreed on the extra attack. Seeing "disciplined" loyalists get so many more attacks than the supposedly "melee centric" CSM is getting pretty old.
VladimirHerzog wrote: Even with EC, they quickly became obsolete when people started spamming starcannons. Theyre just too squishy for their points. I'm not saying theyre not playable, theyre still one of the better aspect warriors in the army and they will delete anything theyre pointed at.
Now, i really do hope that wraithlords will get duty eternal instead of what the wraithseer got.
Unit1126PLL wrote: 18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.
here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs
Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.
Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.
Need the melta lance and grav flux bombard personally, but the SCA will always look cooler IMO. Still hoping they get their +1 attack for dual melee weapons back, even more so for Contemptors. Every other dread that can take two melee weapons gets it: Death Company, Furiosa, Hellbrutes....
Agreed on the extra attack. Seeing "disciplined" loyalists get so many more attacks than the supposedly "melee centric" CSM is getting pretty old.
Wow it's almost like the CSM army should be Vet stats at minimum like I've been saying for years! Big think.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!
(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).
Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tasted granpas double barrell... yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!
(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).
Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tastd granpas double barrell...
yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!
(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).
Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tastd granpas double barrell... yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.
BuT YoU cAn STilL PlaY ThEm As LegENds!!!
Yes, yes you can. You can even break the list more then ever, because nothing screams interactive then running into 18 quad launcher teams and 15 smite bots with basically guaranted casts, which btw cost only 105 pts total.
i swear if legends isn't allready banned near you and doesn't get autobanned simply because the internal balance later on then this list will make it bannable justifieably...
Unit1126PLL wrote: I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!
(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).
Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tastd granpas double barrell...
yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.
BuT YoU cAn STilL PlaY ThEm As LegENds!!!
Yes, yes you can.
You can even break the list more then ever, because nothing screams interactive then running into 18 quad launcher teams and 15 smite bots with basically guaranted casts, which btw cost only 105 pts total.
i swear if legends isn't allready banned near you and doesn't get autobanned simply because the internal balance later on then this list will make it bannable justifieably...
I'm lucky enough that the people i play with are quite casual so they don't mind about legends. The models that people play most are things like autarchs with actual wargear options, hellforged predators with flamers and mounted chaos lords
I didn't like the Redemptor at first but it's slowly started to look better than the regular Box Dread to be honest. I'm not too big on going after impractical designs in the game. The whole game is impractical. However, those Dreads look like they fall over the moment they try to wobble towards a target, and Redemptors only have the issue of needing just a couple more weapons and a right handed fist.
I didn't like the Redemptor at first but it's slowly started to look better than the regular Box Dread to be honest. I'm not too big on going after impractical designs in the game. The whole game is impractical. However, those Dreads look like they fall over the moment they try to wobble towards a target, and Redemptors only have the issue of needing just a couple more weapons and a right handed fist.
But compaired to a contemptor or Leviathan IMHO it's not even close to looking good enough to compete.
The base contemptors and Levi dreads are pretty meh in my opinion. It's when you get the chapter specific ones that the really shine. The DA versions of both really do it for me ascetically. Same for NL dreads.
I didn't like the Redemptor at first but it's slowly started to look better than the regular Box Dread to be honest. I'm not too big on going after impractical designs in the game. The whole game is impractical. However, those Dreads look like they fall over the moment they try to wobble towards a target, and Redemptors only have the issue of needing just a couple more weapons and a right handed fist.
But compaired to a contemptor or Leviathan IMHO it's not even close to looking good enough to compete.
The Contemptor was a slow grower for me too, but the Leviathan was instant love as it combined what I liked of Boxnaughts and what I liked about my eventual love of Contemptors.
If there was more shooting weapons + a right hand fist I would at minimum say the Redemptor is equal to the Contemptor for me.
harlokin wrote: The Leviathan is a very satisfying kit to put together. I would love it to migrate to plastic.
yeah, i the poseability on all FW walkers is miles ahead of anything plastic. I was very pleasantly surprised when i assembled my Contemptors, leviathan and Atrapos
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
I have been using them in my BA lists and they were really good before the duty eternal change, I have a feeling they will be even better now.
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is
Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is
Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.
I play CSM and i love my dreads, even my boxdred does decent work. I'm happy they got a buff so theyre a more competitive pick.
The big complaint that people had about dreads in my experience is when they were playing against a spam of contemptors/leviathans because they were harder to take down and still relatively cheap (contemptors). Or the abusive Iron hands untargetable mortis or unkillable levis.
i think giving them more resilience at the cost of firepower is a good move for the game overall.
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is
Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.
We needed something between box dread and dual storm cannon leviathan. And now that we might have that, marines are so over the top it doesn't matter.
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is
Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.
I play CSM and i love my dreads, even my boxdred does decent work. I'm happy they got a buff so theyre a more competitive pick.
The big complaint that people had about dreads in my experience is when they were playing against a spam of contemptors/leviathans because they were harder to take down and still relatively cheap (contemptors). Or the abusive Iron hands untargetable mortis or unkillable levis.
i think giving them more resilience at the cost of firepower is a good move for the game overall.
in my store there is a notorious dread spammer that has a gakky attitude so people associated dread lists with him so that doesnt help.
(imagine complaining that 4 kastellan robots with fists managed to kill a single ven dread out of deepstrike with datasmith support lol)
Xenomancers wrote: I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.
Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.
yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is
Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.
We needed something between box dread and dual storm cannon leviathan. And now that we might have that might, marines are so over the top it doesn't matter.
spiky marines are quite happy about the dread changes overall tho.
