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Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/10 21:39:13


Post by: broxus


After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.

Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.

Thoughts.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/10 22:03:56


Post by: Quasistellar


I'd say it's "good". IDK about a "steal".

As my book delivery is quite delayed (looks like this coming Saturday), can you tell me the points for the various guns? What's the basic loadout?

I hear 220 a lot but is that with stormcannon arrays or CCW?

What's the new Volkite profile on it?

Anyway, it's overall less survivable that before (T7, 5++), worse BS, loses core (I think? is that correct?), but a lot cheaper, and now has the option for decent Volkite guns that will likely actually get used (as opposed to old 8" flamers that usually did. . . literally nothing). Also gets more attacks when guns are equipped. Seems like an okay tradeoff to bring it in line with plastic dreads.

Personally I like it but I would have liked it to stay a little beefier (T8) just for fluff reasons and matching the way it looks. Also melta wounding on 4s instead of 3s now is kind of a big deal, but a 5++ does help. I mean seriously look at that thicc boi and tell me he looks less tough than an Ironclad boxnought.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/10 22:18:45


Post by: Valkyrie


Volkites are Heavy 4, S5/6, no Ap and 2 Damage, with each wound of 6 doing an additional Mortal Wound. Would probably take them over the Heavy Flamers to be honest, but the range increase on the HFs would definitely help them out.

Overall it's a still a good unit especially with the significant price cut. I'll still be using mine, but it might take a while for the stigma (I guess) to wear out, for it to not be considered an auto-take/OP unit.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/10 22:54:28


Post by: Lord Damocles


My Death Guard Hellforged Leviathan less so...


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/10 23:29:48


Post by: broxus


I honestly think grav-cannons are the way to go now. The stormcannon array just seems meh to me now.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 01:25:34


Post by: dominuschao



Loyalist leviathans seem like a decent unit, not quite backfield camper and too pricey for assault variant from my perspective. The 24" grav flux bombard is why it's a consideration at all since storm cannons aged badly.

The chaos version isn't worth considering unless you want it up close to die due to the shorter 18" grav flux for unknown reason.

Deredeos otoh are better than ever I think so that makes up for it.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 01:47:17


Post by: VladimirHerzog


dominuschao wrote:

Loyalist leviathans seem like a decent unit, not quite backfield camper and too pricey for assault variant from my perspective. The 24" grav flux bombard is why it's a consideration at all since storm cannons aged badly.

The chaos version isn't worth considering unless you want it up close to die due to the shorter 18" grav flux for unknown reason.

Deredeos otoh are better than ever I think so that makes up for it.


lol, i didnt actually realise they had different ranges.

I'm still going to run a leviathan in my night lords, double clawed for her pleasure.
It being a lot cheaper makes it easier to run imo, even with the nerfs.



Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 02:11:08


Post by: dominuschao


Ya it's a weird difference maybe a typo who knows. Props to you for running a full combat version. I lean on other units for that role already so I'll be busting out ye old venerated sicaran now. I think the deredeo beats it out in shear damage, sometimes durability too but the sicaran has range and cool factor going for it. Plus it's black and that matters.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 02:16:30


Post by: Gadzilla666


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
dominuschao wrote:

Loyalist leviathans seem like a decent unit, not quite backfield camper and too pricey for assault variant from my perspective. The 24" grav flux bombard is why it's a consideration at all since storm cannons aged badly.

The chaos version isn't worth considering unless you want it up close to die due to the shorter 18" grav flux for unknown reason.

Deredeos otoh are better than ever I think so that makes up for it.


lol, i didnt actually realise they had different ranges.

I'm still going to run a leviathan in my night lords, double clawed for her pleasure.
It being a lot cheaper makes it easier to run imo, even with the nerfs.


Yup, another typo, another email to gw. *sigh* WOULD YOU PLEASE HIRE A PROOFREADER GW!

Anyways, I'll still bring my Leviathan out from time to time. He won't eat up as many points, and at least now he can have some missiles in that rack above his head. Just too cool of a model to let it gather dust.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 02:23:05


Post by: Argive


On paper they seem really solid choices.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 05:00:14


Post by: broxus


I haven’t seen the deredeo stats and points. Any large changes??


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 05:02:10


Post by: Red__Thirst


I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.

Guess I'll just keep waiting.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 05:20:37


Post by: Argive


broxus wrote:
I haven’t seen the deredeo stats and points. Any large changes??


I believe the main thing for the deredeo is BS nerf as well as the CP tax.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 18:31:39


Post by: broxus


 Argive wrote:
broxus wrote:
I haven’t seen the deredeo stats and points. Any large changes??


I believe the main thing for the deredeo is BS nerf as well as the CP tax.


Did they get a price cut??


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 19:15:55


Post by: VladimirHerzog


broxus wrote:
 Argive wrote:
broxus wrote:
I haven’t seen the deredeo stats and points. Any large changes??


I believe the main thing for the deredeo is BS nerf as well as the CP tax.


Did they get a price cut??


Deredeos finally got access to the boreas missiles and to the volkite. They did lose the aura invuln option since that attachment never had a model


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/11 23:14:20


Post by: dominuschao


Deredeo went to 190 base with anvilus battery now heavy 8 S7 ap2 2d and a hvy bolter. Now only 12w but duty eternal and of course cp tax. But the volkite falconet is interesting. 36" heavy 6 s8 ap2 d2 and 6s to wound is additional 2 mortals. That's a slick weapon for 10 pts more.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/13 16:06:08


Post by: broxus


Interesting option. Seems competitive. Likely the leviathan is still top dog, but not by much.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/13 19:07:11


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.

Guess I'll just keep waiting.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/13 19:10:56


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.

Guess I'll just keep waiting.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)


Hey at least now Contemptors, leviathans and deredeos can take their volkite weaponry. And levis finally get to use their missiles.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/13 20:29:03


Post by: nekooni


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.

Guess I'll just keep waiting.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)


Hey at least now Contemptors, leviathans and deredeos can take their volkite weaponry. And levis finally get to use their missiles.


The missiles were already available in 8th - the AA missiles for Deredeos are "new", though.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/13 23:34:17


Post by: VladimirHerzog


nekooni wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Red__Thirst wrote:
I'm just over here wishing I could use the Blood Angels Legion Leviathan dread I have with the chest mounted assault cannons. I could always just call them Volkite (And will for gaming purposes) but I want to run it WYSIWYG if possible. It's not like it would take much to just add the option, either.

Guess I'll just keep waiting.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Unfortunately, that's a 30k option, so unlikely to be changed (as I keep getting reminded when I ask about the Gorgon f.e.)


Hey at least now Contemptors, leviathans and deredeos can take their volkite weaponry. And levis finally get to use their missiles.


The missiles were already available in 8th - the AA missiles for Deredeos are "new", though.


They weren't for chaos leviathans :(



Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 04:34:27


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


The loss of T8 was stupid.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 05:09:12


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The loss of T8 was stupid.


agreed, especially when the ironclad apparently has enough extra armor to get that +1T over other dreads yet the leviathan that's so much thiccer than it still is t7


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 08:11:29


Post by: Spoletta


broxus wrote:
After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.

Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.

Thoughts.


6 eradicators will one round it.

It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 10:16:56


Post by: Ice_can


Spoletta wrote:
broxus wrote:
After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.

Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.

Thoughts.


6 eradicators will one round it.

It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.

To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 13:52:53


Post by: SecondTime


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The loss of T8 was stupid.


Maybe its armor is decayed from being so old.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 14:01:37


Post by: Spoletta


Ice_can wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
broxus wrote:
After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.

Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.

Thoughts.


6 eradicators will one round it.

It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.

To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.


Comparing anything to eradicators is silly, but since he gave wrong numbers in the first post, I was correcting them.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 19:57:07


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The loss of T8 was stupid.


Maybe its armor is decayed from being so old.


Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 20:28:47


Post by: harlokin


Maybe it's spotlights are load bearing


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 20:49:48


Post by: SecondTime


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The loss of T8 was stupid.


Maybe its armor is decayed from being so old.


Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?


I dunno. I think it got spammed too much and so *whack with the stick*. I personally find the odds of the Imperium keeping anything running that long to be basically zero, so in my mind they should be in 40K at all. Except maybe for chaos. Of course I don't understand how they keep anything running, either.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 20:57:11


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The loss of T8 was stupid.


Maybe its armor is decayed from being so old.


Then why are the Contemptor and Deredeo still T7? Shouldnt they also decay to T6? (Please don't read this, GW).
And what about "fresh" leviathans that just exited the Horus Heresy?


I dunno. I think it got spammed too much and so *whack with the stick*. I personally find the odds of the Imperium keeping anything running that long to be basically zero, so in my mind they should be in 40K at all. Except maybe for chaos. Of course I don't understand how they keep anything running, either.


Dropping them to WS/BS 3+ and nerfing the invuln was enough.
And chaos still has forgeworlds with the original stolen STCs to build them. Also warpsmits have the heresy-era knowledge to maintain them.



Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 21:15:32


Post by: SecondTime


I prefer them being more in line with other dreads. T7 is fine. 5++ is still pretty good defense in 9th.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 21:18:17


Post by: JNAProductions


SecondTime wrote:
I prefer them being more in line with other dreads. T7 is fine. 5++ is still pretty good defense in 9th.
It's really not.

Are Leviathans still a 2+? or did they drop to a 3+? Because if they're still at a 2+, you need AP-4 to make that invuln matter.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 21:21:28


Post by: SecondTime


At t7, they are actually a viable melta target. As they should have always been. T8 4++ was insane.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 21:23:17


Post by: JNAProductions


SecondTime wrote:
At t7, they are actually a viable melta target. As they should have always been. T8 4++ was insane.
I'll agree to that, but they really should be T8. They're pretty chonky.

Charge 'em the appropriate price for their T8, and it'll be fine.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 21:54:13


Post by: SecondTime


Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually. But i think very few imperial units should have an invuln, if any.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 21:57:30


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 22:07:53


Post by: SecondTime


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 22:16:46


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 23:07:00


Post by: SecondTime


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 23:32:17


Post by: grouchoben


Loadout optimisation has changed imo, and I really do think one CC and one gun is the way to go, as they get a big chunk of attacks now, and it helps kep their cost down. 3 HKMs, 2 volkites, a gun and a fist clock in around 255pts. Solid.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/14 23:36:57


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.


yes, against ap -5 weapons the levi wins in durability but most armies struggle to get that much ap on their guns.
The leviathan was not that strong before codex 2.0 for LSM, and for CSM they were only really good with the purge but thats because CSM in general lack good tanks.

I wouldve much prefered that the leviathan lost some of its damage dealing ability but kept its durability. Everything is already blowing up right now with the revamped weapons profiles, having a dedicated "tough" dreadnought wouldve been an interesting addition to the game, especially for CSM that don't get access to T8 helbrute, unlike LSM


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/15 03:00:29


Post by: Gadzilla666


Spoletta wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
Spoletta wrote:
broxus wrote:
After looking closely at the Leviathan Dreadnaught’s damage potential and ability of o tank wounds it seems like a steal still. Using the grav-cannons it can put out a whopping amount of damage. In my imperial fist list it can put out a whopping 24 wounds+ against a vehicle. It’s defense is also world class especially using the smoke launchers it has. On average a unit of 6 Eradicators only does 6.5 damage a round of shooting which isn’t even enough to bracket it.

Honestly, for 220pts it seems like a tanky death machine.

Thoughts.


6 eradicators will one round it.

It can survive if it pops the smokescreen, but it still takes 12.54 wounds.

To be fair saying the most undercosted anti tank can one round it isn't exactly saying it's bad just how rediculous they are. Heck they can 1 round even more expensive models.


Comparing anything to eradicators is silly, but since he gave wrong numbers in the first post, I was correcting them.

He didn't give the wrong numbers. He appears to have been using the standard assault melta rifles for his numbers, you appear to be using the optional heavy meltas.

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Spoiler:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Its hard to justify making it tougher than a land raider. It still is vs big guns like doomsday ark or wraithcannons. Thats enough. I might strip their invuln entirely, actually.


Except its not tougher than land raiders since they get less wounds...
And thats the whole schtick of leviathans, being tough as nails so they can burst through walls during sieges.
Remove their t8 and they become regular dreads.


It is vs those big guns i described. Invulns are very powerful on models like this. Very few 40k scenarios are sieges so why would these things show up in the first place? Its fine at t7; i suspect gw has made their money off them anyway.


actually it takes more melta shots to kill a land raider than to kill a leviathan, even if both were T8


But not -5 ap weapons. And even for melta, its still way too close. Leviathan was way too powerful for too long.


yes, against ap -5 weapons the levi wins in durability but most armies struggle to get that much ap on their guns.
The leviathan was not that strong before codex 2.0 for LSM, and for CSM they were only really good with the purge but thats because CSM in general lack good tanks.

I wouldve much prefered that the leviathan lost some of its damage dealing ability but kept its durability. Everything is already blowing up right now with the revamped weapons profiles, having a dedicated "tough" dreadnought wouldve been an interesting addition to the game, especially for CSM that don't get access to T8 helbrute, unlike LSM

Actually csm Leviathans are tougher against melta, lascannons, and other AT type weapons at T7 with Relentless Hatred than they were at T8. This is only a nerf for loyalists, who lost their 4++ against shooting attacks. So now csm and loyalists are actually getting the same thing for the same price. I approve of this.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/15 03:44:21


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Right, i forgot they gained duty eternal.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/15 04:35:37


Post by: SecondTime


Yeah, I forgot too. T8 and -1 damage would have been too much, I think. At a minimum, you'd have to charge a ton of pts.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/15 04:39:08


Post by: Gadzilla666


SecondTime wrote:
Yeah, I forgot too. T8 and -1 damage would have been too much, I think. At a minimum, you'd have to charge a ton of pts.

So does that apply to the Ironclad as well? Or are you still biased against any model made of resin?


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/15 05:01:30


Post by: SecondTime


The ironclad should be T7 as well. Resin and FW sucks, but bringing them in line makes them a lot easier to tolerate.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/16 21:41:52


Post by: broxus


Right now if you compare a Redemptor Dreadnaught vs a Levitation Dreadnaught

-It takes 12x eradicators melta shots to kill a Redemptor
-It takes 27x eradicators melta shots to kill a Levithan with smokescreen.

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T4 unbuffed
-14.37 vs 9.611 = 50% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T5 target unbuffed
-11.56 vs 7.63 = 52% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T7 target unbuffed
-10.96 vs 6.96 =57% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T8 target unbuffed
-8.74 vs 6.37 = 37% more damage

Remember you get all this extra dakka and defend for 35pts (grav-bombards) which amounts to 19% extra cost, 1 CP, ans loss of some close combat.

Seems pretty clear to me that the Leviathan is still an excellent value for 220pts.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/16 22:10:56


Post by: dominuschao


Thats a good analysis and I agree its a solid unit. The deredeo takes roughly 22 erad shots to kill with smoke. Both have strong gun profiles with 3 damage potential (particularly relevant vs dreads now).

I think I'd be more enthused about the chaos leviathan if its grav wasn't 18". Thats a really poor range band ensuring it always shoots last and will get tagged quickly. Then consider it has blast to prevent shooting in combat. If it gets errata to 24" I could see mine returning.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/16 22:15:22


Post by: Gadzilla666


dominuschao wrote:
Thats a good analysis and I agree its a solid unit. The deredeo takes roughly 22 erad shots to kill with smoke. Both have strong gun profiles with 3 damage potential (particularly relevant vs dreads now).

I think I'd be more enthused about the chaos leviathan if its grav wasn't 18". Thats a really poor range band ensuring it always shoots last and will get tagged quickly. Then consider it has blast to prevent shooting in combat. If it gets errata to 24" I could see mine returning.

I'd guess it will be errated the other way around, with loyalist grav flux bombards dropping to 18 range, as grav flux bombards were 18 range in 8th. Just another typo. Email already sent to gw.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/16 23:12:46


Post by: Quasistellar


broxus wrote:
Right now if you compare a Redemptor Dreadnaught vs a Levitation Dreadnaught

-It takes 12x eradicators melta shots to kill a Redemptor
-It takes 27x eradicators melta shots to kill a Levithan with smokescreen.

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T4 unbuffed
-14.37 vs 9.611 = 50% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T5 target unbuffed
-11.56 vs 7.63 = 52% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T7 target unbuffed
-10.96 vs 6.96 =57% more damage

Levitation vs Redemptor vs T8 target unbuffed
-8.74 vs 6.37 = 37% more damage

Remember you get all this extra dakka and defend for 35pts (grav-bombards) which amounts to 19% extra cost, 1 CP, ans loss of some close combat.

Seems pretty clear to me that the Leviathan is still an excellent value for 220pts.


I’m not disagreeing that the Leviathan is a good deal, but let’s remember Smokescreen also costs a CP. I do think the Leviathan is probably worth it, though. I mean, I’d probably still take it if it stunk, because I absolutely love the model. One of the best Space Marine models, and a fantastic kit to build and pose.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/16 23:16:30


Post by: dominuschao


Hmm your probably right. In that case the grav bombard is a combat dread only type weapon from my perspective.

Off topic for a moment.. whats your thoughts on the HB cost for the sicarans? The somewhat hidden cost seems like a possible oversight to me. Since its the only unit I can think of that has a stock weapon and option to take more of that weapon which then results in paying pts beyond the stock cost. If any of that made sense.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/17 00:42:49


Post by: Gadzilla666


dominuschao wrote:
Hmm your probably right. In that case the grav bombard is a combat dread only type weapon from my perspective.

Off topic for a moment.. whats your thoughts on the HB cost for the sicarans? The somewhat hidden cost seems like a possible oversight to me. Since its the only unit I can think of that has a stock weapon and option to take more of that weapon which then results in paying pts beyond the stock cost. If any of that made sense.

It's my understanding that anything included in "this unit is equipped with" section of the datasheet is included in the basic cost of the unit. All of the various Sicarans say "A Chaos Sicaran is equipped with: heavy bolter; <insert weapon specific to this unit >", then the two optional heavy bolters are listed in the "WARGEAR OPTIONS" section of the datasheet. So the standard hull mounted heavy bolter is included in the base price, if that's what you're asking.

There are, of course, more typos that complicate this. The description for the Stormblade's basic equipment says it includes 2 heavy bolters and two lascannons, which would seem to describe its sponsons. The wargear options then say it can be equipped with two additional heavy bolters and two additional lascannons, which would seem to denote taking two more sponsons. But only the heavy bolters are listed in the units points. Another typo. If its base price includes the standard two sponsons its also significantly cheaper than a Baneblade with two sponsons, at 420 PPM vs a two sponson Baneblade at 550 PPM. Possible typo or hopefully a sign that Baneblades will be getting cheaper soon.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/17 02:40:25


Post by: dominuschao


Ya exactly that's my impression too. The wording in the pts section confuses that but I'm not sure it wasn't just an oversight. BS erred on the side of caution costing the sicaran at 180.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/17 03:06:21


Post by: Gadzilla666


dominuschao wrote:
Ya exactly that's my impression too. The wording in the pts section confuses that but I'm not sure it wasn't just an oversight. BS erred on the side of caution costing the sicaran at 180.

Yeah, can't say that I like the new points system. It can be a bit confusing.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/17 04:14:20


Post by: dominuschao


Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/17 05:33:31


Post by: Gadzilla666


dominuschao wrote:
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?

Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 05:54:29


Post by: broxus


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
dominuschao wrote:
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?

Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.


If they nerf the range to 18” I am going to be furious I just bought a Leviathan with grav bombards. It would be insane that GW would nerf something as soon as they put the book out. I just started a new army and never had used any FW models in 8th because they were broken.

18” is a stupidly short range to make work in any game. 24” range is tough to use also, but at least you can still kill stuff if you move. Grav Cannons have a range of 30” why would a bigger gun have less range? It makes no sense. Additionally, why would they have two weapons with 18” range and the third being 36” and have nothing in between? It seems their decision is to make main guns more deadly the shorter range they have.

Let’s hope they increase the Chaos version so it has a useable option too.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 06:57:46


Post by: Gadzilla666


broxus wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
dominuschao wrote:
Ok after some review I think the grav flux will or should go to 24". My reasoning is if it stays 18" then the cyclonic lance will straight outshine it. Thoughts?

Of course the melta lance is better. That's why it costs 20 points more.


If they nerf the range to 18” I am going to be furious I just bought a Leviathan with grav bombards. It would be insane that GW would nerf something as soon as they put the book out. I just started a new army and never had used any FW models in 8th because they were broken.

18” is a stupidly short range to make work in any game. 24” range is tough to use also, but at least you can still kill stuff if you move. Grav Cannons have a range of 30” why would a bigger gun have less range? It makes no sense. Additionally, why would they have two weapons with 18” range and the third being 36” and have nothing in between? It seems their decision is to make main guns more deadly the shorter range they have.

Let’s hope they increase the Chaos version so it has a useable option too.

It's not a nerf if the 24 range for loyalists is a typo, which it most likely is. They were 18 in 8th, and they're 18 in HH. And what do you mean "24 range is tough to use"? That's the most common range for ranged weapons in the game.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 07:26:29


Post by: Ice_can


24 inches has been bumped to 30 or 36 by primaris however. Because they have to be marines but better at every stat.
Gavflux bombards will probably go down to 18 inch range though.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 13:43:35


Post by: broxus


Ice_can wrote:
24 inches has been bumped to 30 or 36 by primaris however. Because they have to be marines but better at every stat.
Gavflux bombards will probably go down to 18 inch range though.


Unlikely, but I guess possible. It is far more likely they changed it and forgot to change the chaos version. GW has done a good job at varying weapons in 9th so far to all be useful. Having two 18” guns wouldn’t make any sense.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 13:51:25


Post by: Unit1126PLL


18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 14:02:47


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 14:05:26


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs


What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s

Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da weh more manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 14:49:18


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs


What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s

Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da weh more manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).


Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 14:52:26


Post by: Unit1126PLL


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)

But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 14:59:06


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)

But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...

Yeah if someone managed to get a Dread into melee they deserve that damage from the Fist. Dark Reapers have a range of what again, 36"?


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:00:54


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)

But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...

Yeah if someone managed to get a Dread into melee they deserve that damage from the Fist. Dark Reapers have a range of what again, 36"?

True true. I can't even complain about Duty Eternal since it's just a serpent shield.

Wait, no, I can complain because it's a serpent shield but also works in melee. HA! Ignore the ability to shoot the shield for a second mmkay.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:03:40


Post by: SecondTime


Eldar kinda deserve this. The other factions... not so much.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:10:37


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
Eldar kinda deserve this. The other factions... not so much.


deserve what?



Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:11:42


Post by: SecondTime


Deserve to be curb stomped by marines. I know, I know "it's not good for the game", but after literal decades, Eldar tears are pretty amusing. Of course, GW being GW, just made the marines curb stomp everyone. That's a lot less amusing.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:17:21


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
Deserve to be curb stomped by marines. I know, I know "it's not good for the game", but after literal decades, Eldar tears are pretty amusing. Of course, GW being GW, just made the marines curb stomp everyone. That's a lot less amusing.


Oh, so we're going back to the argument that because an army overperformed in the past it should be terrible now?
Not taking into account that only a few units at a time have been problematic while the rest was unplayable trash.

Thats the same as people complaining that Marines were OP back when Guilliman parking lot was the OP build.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:22:06


Post by: SecondTime


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Deserve to be curb stomped by marines. I know, I know "it's not good for the game", but after literal decades, Eldar tears are pretty amusing. Of course, GW being GW, just made the marines curb stomp everyone. That's a lot less amusing.


Oh, so we're going back to the argument that because an army overperformed in the past it should be terrible now?
Not taking into account that only a few units at a time have been problematic while the rest was unplayable trash.

Thats the same as people complaining that Marines were OP back when Guilliman parking lot was the OP build.


No, not SHOULD be. They shouldn't be. But this is GW. So since they ARE, I'm pointing out that of all the factions suffering, the Eldar deserve it the most. I know that truly competitive players will just jump ship, but the Eldar loyalists had many, many years to soak up easy wins.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:25:50


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Nah, dark reapers are clearly Op since every shot can kill a guy in gravis armor, clearly unbalanced. (what do you mean theyre T3 W1 3+? that doesnt matter)

But every swing of a Dreadnought fist is also flat 3...

Yeah if someone managed to get a Dread into melee they deserve that damage from the Fist. Dark Reapers have a range of what again, 36"?

True true. I can't even complain about Duty Eternal since it's just a serpent shield.

Wait, no, I can complain because it's a serpent shield but also works in melee. HA! Ignore the ability to shoot the shield for a second mmkay.

The Serpent has a good move range and Fly. If it gets caught in melee by something able to overpower it THAT quickly deserves to kill it. Eldar players have always been entitled with their rules though.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:28:27


Post by: SecondTime


I don't know if "entitled" is fair. Maybe. It seems every OP list always has its defenders, though.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:35:29


Post by: VladimirHerzog


the only reason i even have serpents is that its the only way to transport our slow units (wraiths).

And even then, running 1-2 serpents isnt the end of the world for any army to take down, its only when you spam them big time (5+) that they start being problematic


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 15:36:26


Post by: Unit1126PLL


To bring 5 or more Wave Serpents doesn't leave much room for any other tanks like Fire Prisms or anything anyways. But this isn't an Eldar thread!


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 16:23:01


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


SecondTime wrote:
I don't know if "entitled" is fair. Maybe. It seems every OP list always has its defenders, though.

Oh for sure, but Eldar players are the worst about it.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 16:38:58


Post by: Xenomancers


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs


What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s

Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da weh more manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).

Dark reapers have literally been a top unit for eldar for 3 edditions in a row now. It's just hard to notice a unit like dark reapers when eldar armies consist of 55 warp spiders or 3 WK or 6 flyers and 18 shinning spears.

I used dark reapers a lot in 7th. they had a pretty amazing ability to ignore jinx then which made them god tier plus they basically got 2+ to hit just for taking 3 units of them with aspect shrine. In 8th they were literally in every eldar list until ynnari were nerfed and then eldar list deisgn changed radically. Back in 6th and 5th - they were just solid.

It is rather confusing why anyone would consider them bad.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 19:07:19


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Xenomancers wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs


What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s

Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da weh more manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).

Dark reapers have literally been a top unit for eldar for 3 edditions in a row now. It's just hard to notice a unit like dark reapers when eldar armies consist of 55 warp spiders or 3 WK or 6 flyers and 18 shinning spears.

I used dark reapers a lot in 7th. they had a pretty amazing ability to ignore jinx then which made them god tier plus they basically got 2+ to hit just for taking 3 units of them with aspect shrine. In 8th they were literally in every eldar list until ynnari were nerfed and then eldar list deisgn changed radically. Back in 6th and 5th - they were just solid.

It is rather confusing why anyone would consider them bad.


because of their current rules/pts? You said it yourself that the last time they were played was in the Ynnari era.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 19:27:38


Post by: Gadzilla666


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs

Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 19:32:05


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs

Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.


Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 20:27:15


Post by: Gadzilla666


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs

Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.


Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.

Need the melta lance and grav flux bombard personally, but the SCA will always look cooler IMO. Still hoping they get their +1 attack for dual melee weapons back, even more so for Contemptors. Every other dread that can take two melee weapons gets it: Death Company, Furiosa, Hellbrutes....


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/18 22:21:20


Post by: Argive


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs


What are dark reapers? I thought those were deleted from the codex after making a splash in early 8th. /s

Yeah 18" range guns are fine, but dual claws are da weh more manly better. Melee is not bad this edition, especially if you have the (warptime) speed (warptime) to get there (warptime).

Dark reapers have literally been a top unit for eldar for 3 edditions in a row now. It's just hard to notice a unit like dark reapers when eldar armies consist of 55 warp spiders or 3 WK or 6 flyers and 18 shinning spears.

I used dark reapers a lot in 7th. they had a pretty amazing ability to ignore jinx then which made them god tier plus they basically got 2+ to hit just for taking 3 units of them with aspect shrine. In 8th they were literally in every eldar list until ynnari were nerfed and then eldar list deisgn changed radically. Back in 6th and 5th - they were just solid.

It is rather confusing why anyone would consider them bad.


because of their current rules/pts? You said it yourself that the last time they were played was in the Ynnari era.


I wholeheartedly disagree.
2 reasons

1. even after ynnari nerf with EC trait MSU 3x3 reaper units at 300 pts were really good at the end of 8th.

2. A unit of 5+ with guide and doom can just walk into obstructing terrain feature unload all the dakka and then dire and fade out of LOS.

Reapers were the only thing that done reliable damage until falcons got a hefty point drop in post PA world with EC trait.

Yes they are too expensive for T3 1W model but thats the case with every single eldar non vehicle unit.

Comparing any flavour of dreads to wraithlord wraithseer one can see how good they are.
Free duty eternal is stupid good..


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 02:06:21


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Even with EC, they quickly became obsolete when people started spamming starcannons. Theyre just too squishy for their points. I'm not saying theyre not playable, theyre still one of the better aspect warriors in the army and they will delete anything theyre pointed at.

Now, i really do hope that wraithlords will get duty eternal instead of what the wraithseer got.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs

Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.


Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.

Need the melta lance and grav flux bombard personally, but the SCA will always look cooler IMO. Still hoping they get their +1 attack for dual melee weapons back, even more so for Contemptors. Every other dread that can take two melee weapons gets it: Death Company, Furiosa, Hellbrutes....


Agreed on the extra attack. Seeing "disciplined" loyalists get so many more attacks than the supposedly "melee centric" CSM is getting pretty old.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 05:50:13


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Even with EC, they quickly became obsolete when people started spamming starcannons. Theyre just too squishy for their points. I'm not saying theyre not playable, theyre still one of the better aspect warriors in the army and they will delete anything theyre pointed at.

Now, i really do hope that wraithlords will get duty eternal instead of what the wraithseer got.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
18" guns are fine - after all, they're the longest-ranged man-portable guns in the Eldar arsenal.


here, meet my dark reapers....
But yes, 18" on the bombard is a non-issue, especially since the midfield gets swarmed by both sides on turn 1 anyway. Besides, real leviathans have dual claws, none of that ranged bs

Siege dreadnought = Siege Drill. Should probably bring one of each, that way you get 5 swings on the charge with the drill's S14 AP-4 D2d3/D6 against vehicles + a bonus swing with the claw. Plus the Siege Drill looks awesome with a liberal coating of Blood For the Blood God.


Yeah but a Salamander helmet being chopped by the claws look much better than crushed by the drill .
But yeah, realistically one of each is probably the best loadout, i should really get myself some Melta and drills for my levi, theyre the only weapons i'm missing on it.

Need the melta lance and grav flux bombard personally, but the SCA will always look cooler IMO. Still hoping they get their +1 attack for dual melee weapons back, even more so for Contemptors. Every other dread that can take two melee weapons gets it: Death Company, Furiosa, Hellbrutes....


Agreed on the extra attack. Seeing "disciplined" loyalists get so many more attacks than the supposedly "melee centric" CSM is getting pretty old.

Wow it's almost like the CSM army should be Vet stats at minimum like I've been saying for years! Big think.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 05:51:05


Post by: SecondTime


Better, really. They have the power of the plot...errrrr the warp.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 05:53:45


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


SecondTime wrote:
Better, really. They have the power of the plot...errrrr the warp.

To be fair, the way I see it is that the Intercessor should be the base of how to price a Marine. Ergo a Vet in the CSM army would logically be A3.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 05:56:47


Post by: SecondTime


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Better, really. They have the power of the plot...errrrr the warp.

To be fair, the way I see it is that the Intercessor should be the base of how to price a Marine. Ergo a Vet in the CSM army would logically be A3.


I'd make CSM 3W base because warp. But that's me. I'm a fan of credible antagonists.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 14:02:22


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
SecondTime wrote:
Better, really. They have the power of the plot...errrrr the warp.

To be fair, the way I see it is that the Intercessor should be the base of how to price a Marine. Ergo a Vet in the CSM army would logically be A3.


I'd make CSM 3W base because warp. But that's me. I'm a fan of credible antagonists.


Yeah but what about the legions that shun the warp and are simply renegades?
CSM need 2A, Chosen 3A.



Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 14:02:26


Post by: Unit1126PLL


I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!

(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 14:09:21


Post by: Not Online!!!


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!

(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).



Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tasted granpas double barrell...
yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 14:12:15


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Not Online!!! wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!

(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).



Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tastd granpas double barrell...
yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.


BuT YoU cAn STilL PlaY ThEm As LegENds!!!


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 14:16:08


Post by: Not Online!!!


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!

(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).



Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tastd granpas double barrell...
yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.


BuT YoU cAn STilL PlaY ThEm As LegENds!!!


Yes, yes you can.
You can even break the list more then ever, because nothing screams interactive then running into 18 quad launcher teams and 15 smite bots with basically guaranted casts, which btw cost only 105 pts total.

i swear if legends isn't allready banned near you and doesn't get autobanned simply because the internal balance later on then this list will make it bannable justifieably...


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 14:24:13


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Not Online!!! wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I'd remember that CSM are secondary antagonists after Daemons, and make Daemons 4W in that situation!

(I tease, ofc, but there is a lot more to chaos than CSM).



Considering the mainline chaos force just got put behind the shed and tastd granpas double barrell...
yeah it makes CSM pretty much the main antagonist still in play.


BuT YoU cAn STilL PlaY ThEm As LegENds!!!


Yes, yes you can.
You can even break the list more then ever, because nothing screams interactive then running into 18 quad launcher teams and 15 smite bots with basically guaranted casts, which btw cost only 105 pts total.

i swear if legends isn't allready banned near you and doesn't get autobanned simply because the internal balance later on then this list will make it bannable justifieably...


I'm lucky enough that the people i play with are quite casual so they don't mind about legends. The models that people play most are things like autarchs with actual wargear options, hellforged predators with flamers and mounted chaos lords


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 17:46:12


Post by: broxus


So it it’s agreed Leviathan dreadnoughts are still top dogs?


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 18:22:41


Post by: VladimirHerzog


broxus wrote:
So it it’s agreed Leviathan dreadnoughts are still top dogs?


Seems like they could be, but i'll need to play a bit more games with the new rules to judge from a CSM perspective.

They got weaker overall but the pts drop and duty eternal really nullifies the "nerfs".

And being elite instead of heavy also helps a lot for battalions.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 20:14:55


Post by: Xenomancers


Redemptor is top dog.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 22:05:36


Post by: Ice_can


 Xenomancers wrote:
Redemptor is top dog.
Not in the looks department


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/19 22:55:31


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Redemptor is top dog.
Not in the looks department

I didn't like the Redemptor at first but it's slowly started to look better than the regular Box Dread to be honest. I'm not too big on going after impractical designs in the game. The whole game is impractical. However, those Dreads look like they fall over the moment they try to wobble towards a target, and Redemptors only have the issue of needing just a couple more weapons and a right handed fist.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 00:22:39


Post by: Ice_can


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Redemptor is top dog.
Not in the looks department

I didn't like the Redemptor at first but it's slowly started to look better than the regular Box Dread to be honest. I'm not too big on going after impractical designs in the game. The whole game is impractical. However, those Dreads look like they fall over the moment they try to wobble towards a target, and Redemptors only have the issue of needing just a couple more weapons and a right handed fist.

But compaired to a contemptor or Leviathan IMHO it's not even close to looking good enough to compete.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 00:50:38


Post by: cody.d.


The base contemptors and Levi dreads are pretty meh in my opinion. It's when you get the chapter specific ones that the really shine. The DA versions of both really do it for me ascetically. Same for NL dreads.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 01:02:30


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


Ice_can wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Redemptor is top dog.
Not in the looks department

I didn't like the Redemptor at first but it's slowly started to look better than the regular Box Dread to be honest. I'm not too big on going after impractical designs in the game. The whole game is impractical. However, those Dreads look like they fall over the moment they try to wobble towards a target, and Redemptors only have the issue of needing just a couple more weapons and a right handed fist.

But compaired to a contemptor or Leviathan IMHO it's not even close to looking good enough to compete.

The Contemptor was a slow grower for me too, but the Leviathan was instant love as it combined what I liked of Boxnaughts and what I liked about my eventual love of Contemptors.

If there was more shooting weapons + a right hand fist I would at minimum say the Redemptor is equal to the Contemptor for me.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 07:35:30


Post by: harlokin


The Leviathan is a very satisfying kit to put together. I would love it to migrate to plastic.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 14:08:09


Post by: Unit1126PLL


To me, in terms of looks, the Leviathan basically looks like a box-dread wearing one of those orange life-jackets.

Just paint those massive armor panels on either side of the head bright orange with black straps and you'll see what I mean.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 14:19:17


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 harlokin wrote:
The Leviathan is a very satisfying kit to put together. I would love it to migrate to plastic.


yeah, i the poseability on all FW walkers is miles ahead of anything plastic. I was very pleasantly surprised when i assembled my Contemptors, leviathan and Atrapos


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 14:55:38


Post by: Xenomancers


I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 14:58:10


Post by: VladimirHerzog


 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 14:59:41


Post by: TheAvengingKnee


 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


I have been using them in my BA lists and they were really good before the duty eternal change, I have a feeling they will be even better now.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 15:33:30


Post by: Slayer-Fan123


 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is

Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 15:40:33


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is

Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.

I play CSM and i love my dreads, even my boxdred does decent work. I'm happy they got a buff so theyre a more competitive pick.
The big complaint that people had about dreads in my experience is when they were playing against a spam of contemptors/leviathans because they were harder to take down and still relatively cheap (contemptors). Or the abusive Iron hands untargetable mortis or unkillable levis.

i think giving them more resilience at the cost of firepower is a good move for the game overall.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 15:42:06


Post by: SecondTime


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is

Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.


We needed something between box dread and dual storm cannon leviathan. And now that we might have that, marines are so over the top it doesn't matter.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 15:42:07


Post by: VladimirHerzog


Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is

Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.

I play CSM and i love my dreads, even my boxdred does decent work. I'm happy they got a buff so theyre a more competitive pick.
The big complaint that people had about dreads in my experience is when they were playing against a spam of contemptors/leviathans because they were harder to take down and still relatively cheap (contemptors). Or the abusive Iron hands untargetable mortis or unkillable levis.

i think giving them more resilience at the cost of firepower is a good move for the game overall.

in my store there is a notorious dread spammer that has a gakky attitude so people associated dread lists with him so that doesnt help.

(imagine complaining that 4 kastellan robots with fists managed to kill a single ven dread out of deepstrike with datasmith support lol)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SecondTime wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 VladimirHerzog wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
I love all my dreads looks. Redemptor good looking though IMO. It actually looks tough where standard contemptors and box dreads look like toys.

Rules wise though - the redemptor is a beast. 13 W to go with that -1 damage ability and just and amazing amount of firepower. It will crush most anything in melee if it gets to fight.


yeah, comparing the boxdreads that get 3 quality shots to the 50 shots of the redemptor is pretty ridiculous how big the difference is

Regular Boxdreads have basically always been awful though. That's why the complaint about any other Dread being useful is pretty amusing. Marine haters genuinely don't like it when a variation of a Dread is even moderately good.


We needed something between box dread and dual storm cannon leviathan. And now that we might have that might, marines are so over the top it doesn't matter.


spiky marines are quite happy about the dread changes overall tho.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 15:45:25


Post by: SecondTime


Yeah, I'm happy for CSM. It's been a long time for them, really.


Are Leviathan Dreadnaughts still top dogs? @ 2020/11/20 15:51:48


Post by: VladimirHerzog


SecondTime wrote:
Yeah, I'm happy for CSM. It's been a long time for them, really.


i'm really eager to see what the csm design will look like tomorrow, hopefully the DG previews will shed a bit of light