Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 14:18:56


Post by: ArcaneHorror


While the Guard undoubtedly have an advantage over the CSM in terms of artillery and numbers, it has been shown in the fluff that the lasgun, the standard issue weapon of nearly every Guardsman, is downright useless against power armor. Once any Marines close the gap, it should be pretty much over. I'm not quite sure how, fluff-wise, any Guard unit can win once Chaos Marines have closed the gap, unless the Guard have reinforcements from other sectors of the Imperial military. Thoughts?


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 14:45:14


Post by: Shadow Walker


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
it has been shown in the fluff that the lasgun, the standard issue weapon of nearly every Guardsman, is downright useless against power armor.
It is useless when 1 guy shoots but multiply it by a dozens and it may make the difference. Also IG have heavy/special weapons too which can hurt even power armour.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 14:53:19


Post by: Pyroalchi


I don't know how canon this is over the fluff as a whole (I so far only read the Ciaphas Cain novels) but from what I have taken away powerarmor is - while incredibly resistant - not immun to lasgun fire. The vulnerable spots are tiny and some of them have to be hit by multiple lasbolts before they yield, but that is guard for you. If you have a hundred guns firing on full auto, there are alway some lucky shots. And usually they should outnumber CSMs by more than 1:100.
Imagine it that way: the CSM shrugs away one bolt after the other, but they just keep on coming. After 500 hits, his lenses go blind (because there is only that much punishment armored glass can take), One of his kneejoints isn't working anymore because the constant lasbolts have melted it together, and finally after another 500 hits, a lucky shot hits right through a tiny hole in his rebreather that was drilled by 20 former shots hitting that exact spot...

Also: remember Guardsmen (not all but some) carry Krak Grenades. If the CSM Closes he risks to eat some of those. He might survive them thanks to his armor, but the Guardsmen have only to get lucky once, he has to multiple times.

Note that I'm not saying a CSM could not just walz through a hundred or maybe even a thousand guardsmen. Just that even powerarmor has its limits when it has to take on 1000 of simultanous lasbolts.



a little non-Canon reference: in the Astartes videos on Youtube (part 2 I think) there is one Astartes whose killing spree is checked for a moment by a Twin Multilaser. The thing shredds a lot of minions before hitting the marine and while it does not seem to penetrate in the first one or two seconds, it forces him into cover as one can see that the powerarmor starts to suffer from all the impacts.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 15:18:06


Post by: locarno24


Exactly so.

But no, 99% of the time, guardsmen in a close-quarters firefight or melee against marines are dead.

But the problem is....so what?

Put this in perspective: a chapter's 'deployable force' is it's battle companies - companies 2 through 5 - and veterans drawn from the 1st. Broadly speaking, that's 400-500 fighting men.

An average hive world, with roughly today's proportion of armed personnel, would field something like 128 million soldiers. Even allowing for 75% not to be front line fighters, that means to knock out half the fighting force, each marine would have to kill sonething like 32,000 enemies.

Marines are amazing, but whilst they win battles, they're the ones who need support to win wars....


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 15:28:54


Post by: kirotheavenger


You also have to remember that not all Guardsmen carry lasguns.
The sergeant (who should really be a corporal) sometimes carries a boltgun, bolt pistol, and/or powersword, another Guardsman often carries a plasmagun or meltagun perhaps, two of men may be humping around a heavy bolter or something heavier.
All of those weapons can pose a reasonable threat to power armour. Plus the krak grenades the squad may have.
Plus there's specialist squads dedicated to these sorts of weapons and armoured vehicles carrying heavy weapons as well.

Lasguns themselves can find weak spots such as lenses or seals, especially when pushed to dangerous power settings. Some guardsman may even have acquired some hotshot packs.

I like to think of the Imperial Guard as a "modern" military similar to the 20th/21st Century.
Don't forget Chaos Marines would be an extremely rare sight, you'd have to have seriously pissed off the wrong person to find yourself deployed to a sector where they're attacking.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 16:36:05


Post by: xerxeskingofking


as others have said, in the Lore, the key is concentration of fire, of getting such a high volume of fire onto the CSMs that thousand to one shots repeatedly happen. that, and all the non-lasgun weapons are brought to bear, the heavy bolters, the autocannons and missile launchers, the fire support form tanks, artillery and aircraft....

all that said, the Traitors know this as well, and are superhumanly good at planning around those advantages, finding the weak spot in the defences, etc.

So, they can still win battles, but suffer casualties in return, and a few dozen guardsmen for a single marine is still a favourable rate of exchange.

Spoiler:
The sergeant (who should really be a corporal) sometimes carries a boltgun, bolt pistol, and/or powersword, another Guardsman often carries a plasmagun or meltagun perhaps, two of men may be humping around a heavy bolter or something heavier.


just to go on a tangent here, but sergeants are often squad leaders in many modern militaries (The US in particular), with the British army being something of an exception in this regard by using corporals as section leaders. Now, while GW is a British company, the Imperial guard is not based directly on the British army, but on a mish-mash of different military traditions borrowed form various pop-culture sources(US in vietnam, ww2 russia, Lawrence of arabia, napoleonic drill with modern weapons, world war 1 germans, world war 2 germans, etc) most of which are American (or are introduced into pop culture though a american lens) and based on the US army rank structure.

thus, the guard is structured like what a non-military layperson thinks it should be: sergeants as squad leaders, lieutenants in platoon command with no platoon sgt or ssgt to assist/control them. companies are commanded by captians, not majors, and theirs almost no senior NCOs in sight. Field grade officers, and even generals, are commanding their units (units which are often vastly bigger than they should be in charge of, given thier rank), form a small foxhole with a single radioman for a HQ, or form the front with sidearm blazing. the army is mostly still un-mechanized foot infantry that walks into battle, with almost no command structure above the regimental level.

I could go on, but the point is that of sins against real world military, using sargents as squad commanders (in the manner of many real world armies) is among the least of them.



How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 17:24:41


Post by: Da Boss


The background that is written from the perspective of space marines amps up their power because the point of space marines in fiction is a power fantasy.

The background written from the perspective of the Guard is more reasonable (though can also go over the top into power fantasy, as in Traitor General or whatever).

In my view the background has to be taken with a truckload of salt. The Guard will aim for weaker joints on the armour where possible, trying to hit an eye, an unhelmted head (given loads of them don't wear helmets), joints or whatever.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 19:36:25


Post by: the_scotsman


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
While the Guard undoubtedly have an advantage over the CSM in terms of artillery and numbers, it has been shown in the fluff that the lasgun, the standard issue weapon of nearly every Guardsman, is downright useless against power armor. Once any Marines close the gap, it should be pretty much over. I'm not quite sure how, fluff-wise, any Guard unit can win once Chaos Marines have closed the gap, unless the Guard have reinforcements from other sectors of the Imperial military. Thoughts?


If you're basing the fact that lasguns are useless against power armor on bolterporn videos like Astartes, then other bolterporn videos prove that Chaos Space marines actually use a form of power armor made from papier mache rather than plastomantiocrete or whatever.

And they've also all been reduced from human-level intelligence to somewhere below a suicidal gorilla.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 21:11:11


Post by: Iracundus


As others have said, sheer volume of fire.

However I personally would view many of the "kills" by lasguns against CSM to be not actually lethal. They may be enough to incapacitate the Marine but if they can be evacuated (or their side takes the battlefield), they can actually be patched up.

Of course there are hits by meltaguns, lascannons, and the like which I would expect to be lethal.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 21:45:57


Post by: =Angel=


The point of power armour is that its very protective when used effectively- IE, like a knight used his armour, or a modern soldier uses theirs. Knights were not immune to enemy fire and didnt stand in the open inviting it.

If the Chaos marine can use APCs or field-craft to close the distance, he will be effective trading fire with the guard from cover, as he can afford to expose himself to enemy fire briefly to make 1 hit kills.

If he has to charge in the open getting hit by lasbolts with no cover or cultists to soak up that fire, his armour will heat up if it is not penetrated outright.Optical systems/autosenses fail, motive fibre bundles fuse and seize as their controls are disabled.

If he slows down or has his reflexes impaired he is a sweet target for snipers. Most of Astartes warfare is dsigned around creating the first scenario and avoiding the second.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 21:54:10


Post by: greatbigtree


It's been said above, but 1 lasgun does not a victory make. 10 doesn't make a victory, even 100 isn't good odds... but 1000? Yup, that will do work.

Plus the Plasmaguns, Grenades, Missile Launchers, Lascannons, and other support weapons. Just like on the tabletop.

If a Marine makes it to CC with a Guardsman, that Guardsman's going to die. So... you fire a battle cannon at them and grant your fellow Guardsman a mercifully brief death. And then the Commissar gives you a cookie for following orders. Tea and Medals for all survivors!


If you think about it, the Astartes creation process has something like a 1% survival rate, or something ridiculous like that. So if you trade 100:1, the Guardsmen are still winning because there are a couple million of them deployed to a given warzone. The utterly staggering numbers of soldiers deployed make any kind of protracted warfare an inevitable loss. By the time you need to start *considering* your casualty rate, you've already lost.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/07 21:55:52


Post by: BaconCatBug


One flashlight is worthless.

Over 9000 flashlights can create a black hole though sheer radiation pressure.

Power Armour isn't totally invulnerable, it's actually pretty weak in context of protection available in the 40k universe.

Astartes Power armour provides good protection against small arms fire, and still provides strength and mobility. Tactical Dreadnought Armour sacrifices all mobility for the ability to shrug off anything but dedicated anti-tank weaponry.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 01:52:55


Post by: ArcaneHorror


the_scotsman wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
While the Guard undoubtedly have an advantage over the CSM in terms of artillery and numbers, it has been shown in the fluff that the lasgun, the standard issue weapon of nearly every Guardsman, is downright useless against power armor. Once any Marines close the gap, it should be pretty much over. I'm not quite sure how, fluff-wise, any Guard unit can win once Chaos Marines have closed the gap, unless the Guard have reinforcements from other sectors of the Imperial military. Thoughts?


If you're basing the fact that lasguns are useless against power armor on bolterporn videos like Astartes, then other bolterporn videos prove that Chaos Space marines actually use a form of power armor made from papier mache rather than plastomantiocrete or whatever.

And they've also all been reduced from human-level intelligence to somewhere below a suicidal gorilla.


I'm basing it on the scene in Avenging Son when a group of Guardsmen unleash their entire supply of ammo into a World Eater and barely scratch him. There's also a scene in Dark Imperium where the Death Guard aren't phased in the least bit by lasers, though Plague Marines are something of a different animal.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 04:09:11


Post by: Saber


The real-world equivalent of lasguns (rifles, SMGs, etc.) are also largely useless at killing people. In battle, the overwhelming majority (90%+) of casualties are inflicted by artillery, machine guns, and other heavy weapons.

That's not to say that small arms are useless. They are very useful for pinning the enemy down, forcing him to keep his head down, and flushing him out of cover during an assault. But very few soldiers suffer wounds from rifle bullets.

Now, 40K is not the real world, etc etc. But the Imperial Guard does have its artillery and heavy weapons, and I expect those would do most of the killing against Chaos Marines.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 07:14:04


Post by: Iracundus


 ArcaneHorror wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
 ArcaneHorror wrote:
While the Guard undoubtedly have an advantage over the CSM in terms of artillery and numbers, it has been shown in the fluff that the lasgun, the standard issue weapon of nearly every Guardsman, is downright useless against power armor. Once any Marines close the gap, it should be pretty much over. I'm not quite sure how, fluff-wise, any Guard unit can win once Chaos Marines have closed the gap, unless the Guard have reinforcements from other sectors of the Imperial military. Thoughts?


If you're basing the fact that lasguns are useless against power armor on bolterporn videos like Astartes, then other bolterporn videos prove that Chaos Space marines actually use a form of power armor made from papier mache rather than plastomantiocrete or whatever.

And they've also all been reduced from human-level intelligence to somewhere below a suicidal gorilla.


I'm basing it on the scene in Avenging Son when a group of Guardsmen unleash their entire supply of ammo into a World Eater and barely scratch him. There's also a scene in Dark Imperium where the Death Guard aren't phased in the least bit by lasers, though Plague Marines are something of a different animal.


Actually I thought there was a scene in Dark Imperium where a Plague Marine did eventually fall to lasgun fire. The rest of the Plague Marines still prevailed but it showed that enough shots (or lucky shots) will still take even Plague Marines out.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 07:31:46


Post by: Kayback


Depending on which book you read they can't or they can with minor difficulty.

Ciaphas killed at least one in HTH but chalked it up to them being previously incapacitated.

Gaunt ambushed some who were ambushing an armoured convoy and dispatched them with only minor effort.

It's all just fantasy anyway.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 10:40:42


Post by: Da Boss


I like to imagine the game stats are actually representative of the power in universe. So Space Marines just suddenly became a LOT more resilient, and now match the fiction closer. I preferred when they only had 1 wound.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 10:57:45


Post by: kirotheavenger


Problem with that though is that game stats vary depending on game.

For example, in 40k a bolter is rapid fire, 24" range, S4, AP0, D1.
In Necromunda it's rapid fire, 24" range, S4, but AP-1 and D2.
Meanwhilst, overcharged plasma in Necromunda is single shot, 24" range, S7, AP-2 and D3, 'Gets Hot'.
So it doesn't even scale evenly with 40k.

Game stats and rules are to fix within the context of the game, nothing more.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 11:06:48


Post by: MarkNorfolk


I can't be the only one who'd like to see a video of platoon of guardsmen (ie well trained, well equipped, disciplined soldiers) defeat a marine squad (chaos or otherwise), including an officer taking a marine down with a power weapon.

I guess we can't have the ubermensch brought low by hoi polloi.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 11:31:17


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


As explained? Numbers. Sheer numbers.

Because it’s not just Lasguns, is it? Grenades, special weapons, specialist squads, tanks, artillery. Thousands upon thousands of armed soldiers.

A hundred Guardsmen lost is nothing. But each fallen Marine (particularly for Traitors, who don’t have the resources of a Chapter) is a significant loss.

Do also keep in mind that relatively few Chaos Marine forces are more than a handful.

If you’ve got a raiding party of 20 nutters, such losses may prove very difficult to replace.

Then factor in that the Guard just don’t care. Sure, you could be tearing through a Platoon. But that means the Guard know where you are. And the opportunity to lob shells at you, and deal a crippling blow is more than worth any casualties caused on their own side by shelling a position.

This is why Chaos relies so heavily on Cultists - not all of whom are robe wearing loonies. It’s those Little Guys that keep the Imperium searching its ranks for further traitors, buying the time for the Marines to do what they need to get done.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 14:37:27


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


One might point out that Power armor is highly susceptable to being stabbed by bugs, or bug people, or even other power armored people with big knives. It's not immune to shooting.

That being said, not all guardsmen are conscripts. Most have training with their weapons, and can use precise aimed and volleyed fire. Guant's sniper Larken (With a long las) headshots over 10 Chaos Bezerkers in one book alone. It's not impossible.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 15:18:04


Post by: Grumblewartz


I would like to point out that the book where Guant's Ghosts killed a 5-man squad of Chaos marines, they were supported by an unknown number (scores at least) of local natives who employed some sort of magnetic crossbow armed with poison darts. They killed one - the dumb marine without a helmet, by pumping his head full of dozens of darts. All the natives served as basically distraction though, while Gaunt's Ghosts mostly took the other four out with sniper rounds through eye lenses, etc., and Gaunt himself killed one with his powersword (striking while the marine was distracted). The marines were shown as far, far too dismissive of the threat, incredibly arrogant and overconfident, rushed into an ambush and had no reason to suspect that Gaunt would be supported by a mini army of locals. So, (at least in that book) he didn't just casually kill them.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 15:42:12


Post by: Da Boss


Hmmm. I really disliked that sequence to be honest, and I am not one of these people who needs Space Marines to be Goku levels of overpowered. It just seemed like they did not really represent a threat, and I think they proper should.

I remember the scene in First and Only when the Plague Marine shows up, and it is a real "Oh gak!" moment, and they bring it down with hot shot lasgun fire.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 15:43:34


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I think I was talking about the 1st book? where they assault the secret underground base with the forbidden technology (Trying to avoid spoilers here) and Larkin gets left up top to stop the assaulting Chaos Forces.

there is also the scene in a book where he is visited by a literal Saint, and takes out a bunch of "Chaos troops" with just his rifle?

Finally there is the assault of Vervin Hive, where he and I think several other scouts personally hold off the invasion of one of the gates, of assaulting Chaos forces.

I don't know if abnett means power armor chaos boys, but in the first book it is very clearly Khorne bezerkers.

Now all in all, Abnett plays extremely fast and loose with the fluff, and all his characters can do things that normal humans cant. Only Sandy Mitchell comes second in terms of normal human ridiculousness. (Cain outduels a Black Legion Chaos Space Marine Captain in single combat)


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 15:45:22


Post by: Da Boss


Space Marines get to kill major heroes of other factions in their fiction all the time. I got no problem with other factions doing it back.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 15:47:34


Post by: Kayback


 Grumblewartz wrote:
I would like to point out that the book where Guant's Ghosts killed a 5-man squad of Chaos marines, they were supported by an unknown number (scores at least) of local natives who employed some sort of magnetic crossbow armed with poison darts. They killed one - the dumb marine without a helmet, by pumping his head full of dozens of darts. All the natives served as basically distraction though, while Gaunt's Ghosts mostly took the other four out with sniper rounds through eye lenses, etc., and Gaunt himself killed one with his powersword (striking while the marine was distracted). The marines were shown as far, far too dismissive of the threat, incredibly arrogant and overconfident, rushed into an ambush and had no reason to suspect that Gaunt would be supported by a mini army of locals. So, (at least in that book) he didn't just casually kill them.


But according to the Lore some would say that 5 Marines are enough to subdue a planet. What's that post human dread thing and the speed enhancement of the Marines means a platoon v platoon should go to the Marines in easily 99.999999999999%bof engagements.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 16:19:37


Post by: Da Boss


5 marines to control a planet only works if the planet is the planet from The Little Prince.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 16:36:53


Post by: Llamahead


II'd say more 19th century Zanzibar. Conquered in approximately half an hour by the Royal Navy....Morale's important if the revolting populace are more loyal to the Imperium than the revolting leader 5 marines to kill him will rather easily subdue a world.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 16:42:50


Post by: Overread


 Llamahead wrote:
II'd say more 19th century Zanzibar. Conquered in approximately half an hour by the Royal Navy....Morale's important if the revolting populace are more loyal to the Imperium than the revolting leader 5 marines to kill him will rather easily subdue a world.


Exactly - the vast majority of a sane normal world would be non-combatants. So the Marines only have to kill their way through the leader's guard to get to them. Furthermore don't forget marines are basically angels from the god-emperor of mankind in the setting. After a while shooting them moral is going to fragment fast. Not only is small arms doing nothing but they are screaming at you about the Emperor and killing those going against his will etc... One would expect a world that isn't corrupted would start having many turning tail and turncoating and joining the marines.




And yep +1 to all the above in terms of the guard using a lot of other weapons other than lasguns. Those are there for your grunts, but you've got loads of other weapons along the way. Also look outside of weapons. Sappers and trenching teams can setup traps, pitfalls and explosive wiretraps and the like. Why not lure that marine until he's standing on a mound of C4 and then set it off. Sure you lose many troops in luring the marine to that spot, but then he's blown to bits. They just aren't going to stand toe to toe one on one with Chaos marines - esp if those marines come with allies like demons, psychers and the like.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 16:48:17


Post by: Da Boss


 Llamahead wrote:
II'd say more 19th century Zanzibar. Conquered in approximately half an hour by the Royal Navy....Morale's important if the revolting populace are more loyal to the Imperium than the revolting leader 5 marines to kill him will rather easily subdue a world.


Does it really count as conquering a planet if the population were already loyal to the Imperium? I think it's just a silly bit of background.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 16:55:55


Post by: Llamahead


Tend to agree with you. But it would certainly have been portrayed as a glorious Imperial victory.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 16:56:21


Post by: Overread


 Da Boss wrote:
 Llamahead wrote:
II'd say more 19th century Zanzibar. Conquered in approximately half an hour by the Royal Navy....Morale's important if the revolting populace are more loyal to the Imperium than the revolting leader 5 marines to kill him will rather easily subdue a world.


Does it really count as conquering a planet if the population were already loyal to the Imperium? I think it's just a silly bit of background.


Well yes, same way as killing most major world leaders of real nations will count as conquering a nation even if you haven't been around to every household to beat the locals up. Because of the vast size of the Imperium its possible to be at war with the Imperium whilst supporting the Emperor. Chaos directly takes advantage of this fact and whilst many a cult is formed against him, many have started down the path to chaos by being the Emperors loyal servant (heck read the Eisenhorn stories to get a great show of this taking place)


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 17:10:46


Post by: Da Boss


Sorry, what? So the populace is loyal to the Imperium but there are some bad guys who aren't.
So the Space Marines come down and kill the baddies and the locals are happy!
That's liberation, not conquest.
Conquest means the people being conquered didn't want to be conquered, and I am not seeing 5 marines be able to do that to any planet that is reasonably populated.

Maybe a planet with like, 1 settlement like was described in the Night Lords series? That might work. But at best all you would do is cow the population while you are physically present and encourage terrorism and insurrection against turncoats when you are not physically there.

As to your real world example, eh, no, it really doesn't work like that. They shot the leaders of the Rising in 1916 and that was the end of Irish Independence was it? Nah, actually it took it from being a fairly fringe concern and turned it into a mainstream opinion because of the brutality of what was done.

6 years later and Britain was driven out despite massive size and overwhelmingly powerful military.

Come on, Space Marine background has become really silly at this point.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 17:18:58


Post by: Overread


No one said the work was done with the conquest - that just means you've crushed the main organised resistance. You've still got to bring in the Imperial Guard to hold order; to ferret out the last dregs of resistance; the administratum to organise and produce the proper paperwork.

5 Marines can conquer a planet; they just need the backup of the rest of the Imperium to hold, organise, maintain and run the planet.





Also don't forget many worlds are run basically like a Kingdom - a small ruling elite on top. If you destroy that ruling elite then those underneath aren't going to rise up and become elite; they will simply swap one set of masters for another.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 17:45:58


Post by: Da Boss


Nah, I don't buy that at all. If it says all it takes is 5 marines to conquer a planet, then I assume that is what it means. If they want to say it only takes 5 marines to take out the corrupt leadership of a planet, then yeah fine.
5 marines to kill the leadership and then an imperial guard regiment to occupy the planet is a lot more reasonable to me.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 18:10:29


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


whenever an argument comes down to the phrase "according to the lore" it's over. There is no canon, no lore, no true source. According to GW Gabriel Angelos can do front flip hammer downs in Tartaros Terminator armor. according to the LORE Spacemarines use multilasers on their vehicles. According to the lore, a single gen 1 Astartes can sneak up on and dispatch 5 Drukhari Primals, bare handed like some sort of over sized Sly Marbo.

I don't even want to get into the lore where it concerns what Guilliman can do.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/08 18:50:18


Post by: Matt Swain


An illustration may help...






How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 15:39:57


Post by: Rebel4ever85


I consider the whole overwhelm them with mass lasguns is a lie. Just means you have a whole lot of men to die on mass. In the lore space marines just ignore lasgun fire like it was rain.

How do you deal with Chaos Space marines, lots of heavy weapon teams and tanks. If you need infantry to do the job, get some hellguns and you have a chance of winning. If it comes to melee...forget it.

Imperial guard have very poor weapon choices beyond heavy weapons for anti-armour when you consider they can't really afford to get too close. Although lore gives space marines plot armour which can't be beaten.



How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 15:47:07


Post by: BaconCatBug


Rebel4ever85 wrote:
I consider the whole overwhelm them with mass lasguns is a lie. Just means you have a whole lot of men to die on mass. In the lore space marines just ignore lasgun fire like it was rain.
Rain isn't dangerous either, until a Monsoon hits and now it is.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 16:06:01


Post by: Da Boss


I mean there is a lot of badly written bolter porn out there, it is true.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 16:11:31


Post by: Grumblewartz


 Da Boss wrote:
I mean there is a lot of badly written bolter porn out there, it is true.


That's the issue at the end of the day


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 17:51:06


Post by: Pyroalchi


@ melee: I mean... Space Marines cut open other Space marines with Powerweapons like powerswords and axes or use Plasma... every IG officer starting with Sergents can have a powersword/fist AND a plasmapistol. I would be very careful with saying (C)SM can be careless in melee. Those powerswords/fists are build to gut through powerarmor


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 18:11:41


Post by: kirotheavenger


I also don't like the idea that it's just sheer volume of lasgun fire.
In order to be able to level that volume of fire at a Space Marine you'd have to be standing almost shoulder to shoulder.
Standing shoulder to shoulder against an enemy carrying a fully automatic weapon with high explosive ammunition is just a recipe for disaster.

IMO the threat of Space Marines is exactly why Imperial Guard squads can carry things like plasma guns and plasma pistols.
Even the grenade launcher firing krak grenades can seriously ruin an Astarte's day.

IMO consider a Space Marine exactly like a light tank or armoured car today (except close combat doesn't work because it fights back).
The squad's small arms just hang back and remove the enemy's support, or suppress the enemy by hitting the lenses. Meanwhile your special/heavy weapon manoeuvres into position.
That or you pull back entirely and call in support from higher up command. Artillery, airstrikes, heavier ground assets, etc, are all capabilities maintained by the Imperial Guard capable of killing an Astartes.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 18:50:57


Post by: Pyroalchi


An anecdotal similarity: the German Gepard Flak tank of the Cold war had 2 x 35 mm autocannons, a caliber much to small to penetrate a contemporary Main Battle Tank. Yet it was tested and proven that if forced to fight, a Gepard Salvo could damage the optics, treads and turret mechanics so badly, that it could damage a MBT enough to retreat. It's the same principle like lasguns vs. Powerarmor.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/09 21:16:16


Post by: Da Boss


Power Armour is not magic. The lasers from lasguns will be imparting energy to the armour which will cause it to heat up.

That will either cook the marine inside eventually or render the armour inoperable as components melt and deform.

Lasguns are not flashlights, they are lasers powerful enough to punch a hole through someone.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/10 11:53:37


Post by: Rebel4ever85


 Da Boss wrote:
Power Armour is not magic. The lasers from lasguns will be imparting energy to the armour which will cause it to heat up.

That will either cook the marine inside eventually or render the armour inoperable as components melt and deform.

Lasguns are not flashlights, they are lasers powerful enough to punch a hole through someone.


Ceramite is a form of heat and shock-resistant ceramic material that is widely used throughout the Imperium of Man.

Using lasguns to heat up ceramite to the point of destroying it is like trying to drown someone with a water gun or a garden hose, its possible...but why would you?. Where as you could just use something that is actually good against armour and waste a lot less time and men. Even an autocannnon can do pretty damn well against space marines its not like you need to have a las or plasma cannon.

Lasguns are extremely good weapons, in fact they are the best weapons in the imperium in terms of durability and ammo capacity. However they are pretty much useless against heavy infantry like space marines so don't use them for that. I believe picking the right tool always makes your job easier and lasguns most definitely not suited for fighting space marines.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/10 13:01:22


Post by: Pyroalchi


But not everything on the Marine can be ceramite... there have to be joints, you can even see them on the models. And whatever stuff those are made from, can most likely be penetrated.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/10 13:14:53


Post by: Da Boss


Heat resistant does not mean it cannot absorb heat if it is being shot constantly with high power lasers, which is what some people in the thread want to imply. It will heat up, and cook the marine inside. The heat will get in through breathing apparatus, joints and so on. And if it has a really high specific heat capcity, it will also HOLD that heat really well, so it will mean that any Marine that heats up will find it very difficult to cool down again.

I completely agree, 1 lasbolt is probably not a big threat unless it hits them in the eye or unhelmeted head. If it hits them in a joint it is probably a minor injury a marine can ignore. But a barrage of lasbolts is not something a marine can ignore at will. Their armour is not immune to physics.

What this thread demonstrates is that the power level of marines in peoples imaginations had really skyrocketed over the years!


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/10 15:25:35


Post by: Gadzilla666


Heat resistant doesn't mean immune to heat. Enough concentrated lasgun fire will kill a marine. The armour will eventually fail. Lasgun shots aren't bullets.

That said, I'd like to address the whole "shoot them in their un-helmeted head" idea. How many CSM are running around without helmets? That's a loyalist thing. Most CSM have survived too long to be that stupid. Remember "Beware a man who has survived a long time in a very dangerous profession". And a lot of CSM have survived for millennia in a very dangerous profession.....


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/10 22:13:04


Post by: kirotheavenger


I've always taken the unhelmeted thing to purely be a model thing, and they don't do that in 'reality'.
Like how all the main characters run around helmetless in every Hollywood movie ever, it's not what actually happens.

In various books the ceramite plating on power armour has protected them from things such as orbital reentry or [briefly] the spout of an active volcano.
Trying to cook a marine with lasgun fire is horrendously inefficient. Far better to just call up your buddy with the plasma gun. After all, this is exactly what you keep him around for.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/10 22:30:33


Post by: Hellebore


there are more anti marine weapons in guard squads than there are marines in the imperium.

The guard deploy heavy bolters (D2 now...), lascannons, autocannons, melta guns, plasma guns, grenade launchers etc.

And there are 2 of those in each squad. 500 squads of guard can feasibly possess 1 anti marine gun for every marine in a chapter.


Not including that they're now pumping out 4000 lasgun shots at the same time.


power armour isn't invulnerable, nor is the marine flesh underneath it.

If power armour is completely immune to lasguns, then sisters, eldar scorpions, fire dragons, reapers etc area also all immune to lasguns.


A lasgun is still a deadly weapon. If there was a 40k mythbusters they'd just put a suit in front of a lasgun and shoot it until it was compromised. And then point 50 lasguns at it and see how long that would take to compromise it.









How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/11 19:23:52


Post by: Rebel4ever85


Heat resistant does not mean it cannot absorb heat if it is being shot constantly with high power lasers, which is what some people in the thread want to imply. It will heat up, and cook the marine inside. The heat will get in through breathing apparatus, joints and so on. And if it has a really high specific heat capcity, it will also HOLD that heat really well, so it will mean that any Marine that heats up will find it very difficult to cool down again.

Yeah because space marines tend to just let you shoot them over and over... lets be serious if an imperial guard does hit a space marine he generally has about 2 seconds to live along with his mates. You should watch the fan video Astartes it gives a pretty solid impression of how good a space marine actually is.

What this thread demonstrates is that the power level of marines in peoples imaginations had really skyrocketed over the years!


It shows you don't really have a grasp on how strong space marines are supposed to be. 1000 marines in a chapter.. in a war of billions...if they weren't much better than anyone else they would do precisely nothing. Even being fair an assuming that 1000 should be more like 10,000 they still couldn't make much of a difference to billions unless they were near unstoppable to normal men. A single company of space marines defeated 10,000 orcs with only combat knives after they ran out of ammunition and they killed every last orc including a warboss. Space marines have killed demon primarchs and greater demons pretty regularly. I can't think of a time when Imperial guard have ever defeated a demon primarch...regardless of numbers actually finding it difficult to think of any time imperial guard have defeated a greater demon.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/11 20:03:54


Post by: Da Boss


I've seen Astartes. It is certainly well animated.

And yes, there is a lot of poorly written background about Space Marines.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/11 20:38:50


Post by: Pyroalchi


As you mention Astartes: look at part 3, from 1:23 onwards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMGRa4_UjE4
That's a twin Multilaser. As would be expected, it just shreds unarmored light infantry (that's what we would expect). The Marine is hit from 1:25 to 1:29, so 4-5 seconds, before he goes into cover (so he sees a necessarity to do so, even against mere lasbolts). Notice that at 1:29/1:30 we can see multiple already glowing hitmarks on his powerarmor, which implies that it has been seriously heated up and needs time to cool down at these spots. At 1:33 we see part of him again and they seem to at least not be red hot anymore.

=> I don't know exactly the rate of fire of a Multilaser, but from the looks of it, it can not be that much faster than maybe 3-6 Lasguns. Yes it has a higher intensity, but as on the tabletop no armor Penetration against Powerarmor. Still I take from that (and I think that's a good representation of the "Lasgunresistance" of Powerarmor) while the Marines armor can take dozends of shots unpenetrated, the hitmarks heat up to red hot state. He can survive this for at least 4-5 seconds and the armor recovers fast, still if he kept standing there not all the hitmarks would have cooled down, as some would have been repeatedly hit. And at some point the heat dissipation capability of the armor would have been compromised.

That's basically what I'm talking about. A Powerarmor wearer can weather some 50 lasgun shots (which would outright kill a mere mortal in Flak Armor), kill some troopers get to cover, let his armor dissipate the heat, get out again, take another 50, kill some more, evade LoS, dissipate heat again etc. But even for Powerarmor it's a risky move to approach platoons of Guardsmen (and they should always come in 100s to 1000s), as there is only so much head that can be dissipated.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/11 22:33:18


Post by: morganfreeman


 Da Boss wrote:
Nah, I don't buy that at all. If it says all it takes is 5 marines to conquer a planet, then I assume that is what it means. If they want to say it only takes 5 marines to take out the corrupt leadership of a planet, then yeah fine.
5 marines to kill the leadership and then an imperial guard regiment to occupy the planet is a lot more reasonable to me.


"Conquest" is the subjugation of control of a palce or people through military force.

Basically conquest is an extremely nebulous concept. Technically speaking it doesn't even involve death or violence; theoretically rolling into a location with military might, and the locals subsequently surrendering and obeying, is conquest. Conquest could also involve the removal of a single central figure, so long as those below that figure then fall in line without that figure. Ergo a sufficiently threatening military presence can conquer enemies without taking any violent action. Or a single surgical strike can conquer enemies by removing their leadership and subsequently having them surrender / fall in line / ect.

And that's how five space marines conquer a planet. Drop in and decimate the centralized leadership (Imperial planets are basically planet-wide king-ships), then tell the cowering underlings that this planet is now under imperial rule. They hop on the vox, the military at large stands down, and the planet is conquered. Those marines five marines will have one hell of a time holding the planet (read: they can't), but they're entirely capable of conquering it.

Likewise, given that space marines are basically "angels of the emperor" in the eyes of most of the citizenry, to the extent that their exist is mostly legend, folklore, & propaganda, it's important to realize what them showing up would be. Rebelling against the impressive regime may seem all fine and dandy, but once the marines show up? Once the literal god-like angels of death descend of fiery wings, decimate anything nearby, and shrug off all of your weapons like drops of rain? It's not unrealistic for dissenting elements to throw down their arms and surrender. At which point they've been conquered, despite the marines not going door to door and delivering a knuckle-sandwich to every individual who was pro rebellion.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/12 09:44:14


Post by: Da Boss


To me that implies the Marines were tipping the scales on a planet that was falling toward rebellion. I think a planet that is openly rebelling and maybe worshipping Chaos or fallen to a Genestealer Cult would absolutely not go the same way.

Look at the chaos infected planets from Gaunt's Ghosts. No way are the troops at Fortis Binary or the Blood Pact gonna give up just because 5 marines arrived. We are talking about planets where the rebellion was mostly a preserve of a small cadre of the upper classes and the remaining populace were mostly ignorant or complicit only through fear or apathy, not planets where the population had actually properly rejected imperial rule.

I totally believe that 5 space marines could land and destroy a corrupt nobility and their personal bodyguards. But to my mind saying that means it only takes 5 marines to conquer a planet is creative accounting at best.

But you can see in this thread that the power fantasy for marines has gone through the roof. No questioning of the capabilities of Space Marines is really accepted any more, they are unstoppable mini-tanks in the minds of some of the fandom now and that mindset is so popular and prevalent that GW has invented a new type of Marine to pander to it.

So I guess soon enough my view on this will be completely wrong and people who believe marines to be unstoppable tank-men will be entirely correct. That is pretty lame to me, the power fantasy is not really why I am interested in this fiction. But it does seem to be the way things are going.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/12 10:07:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Well, background is always a puff piece for the protagonists, whether it’s a Codex, short story, novel etc.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that, in theory at least, it’s pretty rare for Astartes of any flavour to stick around.

Loyalists are meant for the shattering of the enemy command structure. Get in, display unspeakable violence and tear out the enemy command root and stem (Patriarchs, Cult Demagogues etc). This, again in theory, fatally weakens the enemy war effort so the AM can do what they do and just steam roll the enemy whilst confusion reigns.

Traitors? Well, a lot of their time is spent raiding for resources (including people for trading with the Dark Mechanicum*). Yes some still conduct mass invasions (typically the original Legions), and if they’ve got the numbers that can be terrifying.

Traitors can also bring in Daemonic support, and that shouldn’t be underestimated as a tactic. Depending on the ritual and the destabilisation created, that’s a potentially endless flood of effective troops - and not just in combat either, given their nature.

Astra Militarum are something of an ideal counter. Trying to use Cultists as bullet sponges? Yeah, lasguns dont run out of ammo that quickly. Artillery can tear swathes through your lines, and even slay the Astartes, or at least render them combat ineffective.

This is why mass invasions were previously relatively rare. The Traitor Legions need to balance the benefit of achieving their objectives against the inevitable casualties and expenditure of materiel. This seems especially true of more recent Renegades, as they may be far fewer in number, and won’t have contracts/agreements in place to replace such things.

One imagines that if you’re a n00b, and Dark Mechanicum** and the likes of Fabius Bile will set their price however they damn well please, because what the eff are you going to do about it?.

*Man they need a better name. Of all the factions to have been rebranded, they’re the last made spoopy by just adding ‘Dark’.

**Like really really. They’re Daemonsmiths, creators of terrifying weapons. Not some sad act little Emo kids trying to be edgy.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/12 14:28:09


Post by: Rebel4ever85


So I guess soon enough my view on this will be completely wrong and people who believe marines to be unstoppable tank-men will be entirely correct. That is pretty lame to me, the power fantasy is not really why I am interested in this fiction. But it does seem to be the way things are going.


It helps sell more space marines is my guess. Just look at the Xeno's races none of them can pull of what space marines can. Eldar have primarch like characters in the Phoenix Lords and look at the difference in power between them and the Primarchs of the Space marines. Its annoying and i can see why you would want to bring it back into a more realistic power scaling but its been going on for too long to be written off as bad writing, sad but true.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 14:50:31


Post by: =Angel=



I always read marine armour as heavier on the legs, chest and pauldrons. In the image above, you can see the marine has been shot twice in the right leg, on a reinforced area.

His arm looks considerably less armoured- I'd expect a solid hit from a lasgun at his wrist (or throat, respirator ) to penetrate, if not sever. Note that some primaris variants and Mk3 armour have reinforced arms.

The pauldrons take a lot of battering- you can see the ablative outer layer has been chewed away in the dead marine below him. I wouldn't expect to get through the paudrons/chestplate without something heavier or a marine getting absolutely pasted.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 15:09:56


Post by: Squidworth


The saying 'even a broken clock is right twice a day' (they have a LOT of clocks) comes to mind when IG vs CSM, the same way Smaug gets smashed I guess.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 15:52:07


Post by: Kayback


The problem with pictures like that is we have no idea if those hits were from a las pistol or a macro cannon.

There is lore about Terminators being taken out by a single Gretchin shotgun blast to weak joints (2nd Ed rulebook IIRC) and a Terminator surviving being stepped on by a Titan. Of a Titan being killed by a few Marines with Melta bombs or surviving an Exterminatus event. Of unarmoured IG killing Genestealers (albeit sometimes with a Pariah around) and of Genestealers tearing Terminators apart.

There is no consistency or logic in the WH40K universe.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 16:01:28


Post by: Overread


Only in computer games are attack values certain.

In the real world all kinds of variables come into play. A lucky shot through to an unlucky shot. Being stepped on is fine if you have good armour and happen to get pressed into softer surrounding ground.

Titan's can be breached intrnally by a few marines - heck the old game had a titan arm which was basically a big fist that punched the enemy and invaded it with marines.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 18:53:01


Post by: Matt Swain


"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.



How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 19:18:21


Post by: Voss


 Overread wrote:
Only in computer games are attack values certain.

X-com (and a lot of other games) are laughing at you right now.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 20:34:03


Post by: Iracundus


 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.



It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/13 23:09:35


Post by: Hellebore


Iracundus wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.



It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.


Yeah, if you were to fire any 40k weapon at an unarmoured creature from 40k at point blank range, they should all penetrate their bodies to some degree. Even a space marine should die from a laspistol to the temple. The wound roll definitely can't be literal.

That 1 represents technical hits that are grazes, singes, flesh wounds etc.


No one seriously thinks a space marine captain is actually tougher than a normal battle brother do they? That those 5 wounds mean their temple bone is 2.5 times as resilient and would require 5 laspistol shots to kill them? How about a guard colonel? Their skulls are apparently 5x thicker than a guardsman...


The fact that characters have more wounds than standard troops is evidence that they aren't literal but representative - those characters are better at avoiding taking full on hits.

The combination Hit, Wound Save are all different forms of abstraction that even overlap in their representation of those abstractions - armour saves should be made between hits and wounds for example, as failing it is what determines whether you have a chance to be wounded or not...








How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/14 06:48:39


Post by: Iracundus


 Hellebore wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.



It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.


Yeah, if you were to fire any 40k weapon at an unarmoured creature from 40k at point blank range, they should all penetrate their bodies to some degree. Even a space marine should die from a laspistol to the temple. The wound roll definitely can't be literal.

That 1 represents technical hits that are grazes, singes, flesh wounds etc.


No one seriously thinks a space marine captain is actually tougher than a normal battle brother do they? That those 5 wounds mean their temple bone is 2.5 times as resilient and would require 5 laspistol shots to kill them? How about a guard colonel? Their skulls are apparently 5x thicker than a guardsman...


The fact that characters have more wounds than standard troops is evidence that they aren't literal but representative - those characters are better at avoiding taking full on hits.

The combination Hit, Wound Save are all different forms of abstraction that even overlap in their representation of those abstractions - armour saves should be made between hits and wounds for example, as failing it is what determines whether you have a chance to be wounded or not...


Considering the fluff lethality of some of the weapons in 40K, it is very possible to argue there is no such thing as a "graze" or flesh wound when it comes to things like plasma or melta beams. I would argue failed to wound rolls in those cases are not even grazes but near misses. A total wider miss would be failing the to hit roll.

Yes, the sequence of rolls is illogical and messed up but I doubt GW is going to change it. It should be to-hit, then invulnerable/dodge saves, then armor, then to wound, moving inwards towards the target.

Post combat recovery is one thing that I would say is the key difference between a Marine and say Guardsman. A plasma hit might "kill" both of them in game terms, and result in them being taken off the table. However in terms of the universe, the Guardsman will expire, while the Marine might survive, with a scar or bionics. So that's my personal headcanon for all the Marine casualties on the table, that most of them may have been rendered combat ineffective but will survive.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/14 06:58:56


Post by: Hellebore


It's also the only way I can countenance the casualty rate of Eldar on the table.

Their psycho active armour reacts to damage, plugging holes and releasing medication, such that the number of actually dead Eldar after a battle is very small


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/14 11:05:39


Post by: Unknown_Lifeform


In my personal headcannon I'd tend to visualise an Astartes attack vs. guard as being like a tank company hitting an infantry battleline in WW2 or maybe medieval knights charging into peasant infantry.

The enemy don't stand much of a chance against the initial attack. A concentrated force of marines are are probably just going to roll over the enemy at first and sure, most of the guys with rifles might not be able to do a lot in that situation, but there are weapons that do represent a real threat and gradually casualties start to mount up. The attackers will be facing enemies in prepared positions with overlapping fields of fire and as they start to push through the enemy lines they become vulnerable to enemy getting round the sides at rear. Due to attrition from heavy weapons, dwindling ammunition and increasing resistance as the enemy react to the push and fall back to defensible positions the attack gradually begins to break up and bog down and must eventually halt or fall back or risk becoming surrounded and destroyed. The more casualties mount and the more the attack breaks up the more vulnerable the marines get. Even lasguns are a threat in that situation as marines fall prey to guardsmen getting behind them and putting shots into joints and weak spots whilst they are slaughtering the rest, like knights getting dragged down and having daggers stuck in their visors.

It keeps marines as awesome, seemingly unstoppable super soldiers whilst placing some real limits on what they can do and explaining why formations like the guard are needed. The marines are great for breaking through the enemy lines or securing a limited objective but they usually lack the numbers to do more. Attrition will wear them down and they still have to be careful not to over extend.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/14 14:00:16


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I know I am going entirely off fluff here which is never good, but don't most chapters "replenish" with new recuits fairly regularly? Because I'm sure over 10,000 space marines have died in the last few millennia. In Brothers of the Snake, the chapter actually builds about 15-30 new recruits into full battle brothers over the span of several chapters in the book. It's not like there are ONLY those 1000 marines and thats it. That has never been the case.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/14 19:36:02


Post by: Grumblewartz


I think if we ignore the more extreme examples in the fluff (marine killing a titan, a few marines subduing a planet) and take that as imperial propaganda (the earlier versions of 40k really emphasized that none of their codices/novels/etc. should be taken as literal truth, but an amalgamation of truth/myth/imperial propaganda/occasional miracles/weird warp stuff/etc.) then you are left with the fantasy in space comparisons, coupled with impossible levels of biological engineering.

A marine to a guardsmen is something like a late medieval (full plate armor, mail, padding, etc.) knight vs a serf. Except, it's more extreme because space marines have built in redundancies (extra heart, lungs, etc./ultra fast blood clotting/ability to effectively enter suspended animation while healing/etc.). A guardsman with a las gun might get lucky and wound a marine, but it is effectively impossible for them to outright kill a marine. Given the lethality of special weapons in 40k, a guardsman with a melta, plasma, sniper rifle, etc. has a better chance of severely injuring a marine, but they need to 1.) survive incoming bolter fire to get a shot off; 2.) not flinch in the critical moment and land a kill shot. A single heart shot wouldn't kill a marine/puncturing a lung or even two wouldn't kill a marine/etc. They could still wound one, severely injure one (given that power armor has weak points at the joints), but if we take the oft-repeated lore at face value - a marine can lose an arm and fight on without much hinderance - then it is far less likely that guardsmen would succeed in outright killing a marine.

But, as others have said, if you use the knight vs peasant allusion, enough peasants swarming even the best equipped knight will still eventually take one down (as long as they don't panic and flee). Therein lies marines' greatest strength. Knights remained dominant on the medieval battlefield until countries began using well-trained blocks of disciplined infantry using a combination of pikes/halberds/billhooks/warhammers and ballistic weapons crossbows/longbows/guns. If guardsmen remain disciplined, work together and bring their special/heavy weapons/tanks to bear, they can kill space marines, but that is easier in theory than practice, since marines rarely engage large numbers of guardsmen without their own masses of cannon fodder or they choose precise, lighting attacks to decapitate leadership, then withdrawal. Anyways, just my thoughts on it.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/15 01:59:03


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


I'm gonna go full fanboi and say a single guardsman is worth 10 astartes. And where do I get the gall for this claim?

HERE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyGDo1ARpjI

I'll see myself out and to the woodshed.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/15 08:23:14


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Grumblewartz wrote:
I think if we ignore the more extreme examples in the fluff (marine killing a titan, a few marines subduing a planet) and take that as imperial propaganda

Marines never die, they're just Missing In Action!


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/15 11:21:48


Post by: Kayback


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Grumblewartz wrote:
I think if we ignore the more extreme examples in the fluff (marine killing a titan, a few marines subduing a planet) and take that as imperial propaganda

Marines never die, they're just Missing In Action!


Marines are Sub-Marines?


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/15 12:17:34


Post by: OldMate


I imagine marine power armour to be proof against most infantry weapons. Discounting AT grenades, and hand held launchers(which would be my go-to. If the can kill a tank, they can kill a marine, problem is delivery, and that really balances it out because a tank is a bigger and less agile target)
Of course when the rounds are caught on the armour plate it's not going to do much.or probably anything. But the gaps, grill and occulars would be weak points.
A marine will probably not walk off the likes of a heavy stub round through the occular of his helmet or through his throat. It may well glance from most other surfaces(this is why you pack AP capped ammunition). Of course the occulars are really small to avoid this.

Las-round through the throat, could kill if it hit something important. But that's about the same for a regular human. Honestly I don't think a marine would have much advantage in this case. The area is just too vital.

Melee is a funny one becasue between the plates (are indestructible to any conventional melee weapon a human is going to bring to bear) the marine's physiology (which is going to make burgeoning super ineffective, and any flesh wound you deliver will mean nothing) and soft armour in the gaps (I can see a flexible but very effective armour similar to a kevlar weave being employed here) to stop any stabbing into the joints.

Thus in melee combat making a marine untouchable to a human with a conventional melee weapon. And basically any alien equivalent. Although it does not mean you can't throw a heap of penal troops at the marines to tie them down and blow them all the hell with basilisks.

But if the marine is not wearing a helmet it's a different story.

Energy weapons, depends on the relative power of the weapon to the armour as this seems to vary a bit in fluff. I imagine guard plasma/melta to be scaled down(or astartes to be scaled up?) and thus less lethal. But a centre of mass shot against an unshielded marine is going to kill him. Does not matter how many hearts the marine has; a miniature star has just entered his chest and effectively spot-boiled everything his chest contains and exploded it. Because that's what happens when you have a massive transfer of heat(energy) into a confined space that is filled with predominately water.

Use your numbers to lay down such a withering tide of explosions and shells, strobe them so hard with your las-weapons that the marines are pinned in place and do not stop till they die.
But this is assuming the marines are arrogant enough to play ball. I imagine they'd put that in the too hard basket and act at a more opportune time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hellebore wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
"Realism?" Come on guys! In 40k a nearly unarmored human has a 17% chance of surviving a hit from a tank killing weapon like a lascannon, doomsday cannon, etc.

Realistically a person hit by an antitank weapon has no chance to survive, zip.

Likewise maybe a 'real" space marine would be very hard to kill by G.I. Joe, but just like the normal guy has a unrealistic chance to survive in 40k the big baddies have a possibly unrealistic chance to be killed by a snotling throwing a rock.



It's my headcanon admittedly but I view the successful to hit roll as meaning the shot "hit" or passed through the area occupied by the base of the model (and the space above the base), and a successful to wound roll is actually substantially hitting the model. A failed to wound roll for a lascannon against a Guardsman for example would be the shot hitting the mud at his feet or narrowly missing like passing between his legs, or just by his head.


Yeah, if you were to fire any 40k weapon at an unarmoured creature from 40k at point blank range, they should all penetrate their bodies to some degree. Even a space marine should die from a laspistol to the temple. The wound roll definitely can't be literal.

That 1 represents technical hits that are grazes, singes, flesh wounds etc.


No one seriously thinks a space marine captain is actually tougher than a normal battle brother do they? That those 5 wounds mean their temple bone is 2.5 times as resilient and would require 5 laspistol shots to kill them? How about a guard colonel? Their skulls are apparently 5x thicker than a guardsman...


The fact that characters have more wounds than standard troops is evidence that they aren't literal but representative - those characters are better at avoiding taking full on hits.

The combination Hit, Wound Save are all different forms of abstraction that even overlap in their representation of those abstractions - armour saves should be made between hits and wounds for example, as failing it is what determines whether you have a chance to be wounded or not...








It would explain some of the tactical debacles...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Against guard power weapons. I imagine they'd be pretty rare, and of lesser power than a marine's, But gak they'd be dangerous. I'd imagine that if it came to a melee fight the astartes might just prioritise killing all they guys with power weapons. The marine has faster reflexes etc so it's not really a competition. But a section of like void suited solar auxilia power-axe weilders when power weapons are extremely rare among astartes, wow. It'd be murder. That one case I marines backing up and attempting to win with gunfire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How do you defend yourself when his axe has just cut straight through your chainsword? And he has like twelve mates for every one of you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think killing an astartes would be somewhere between killing a 16th century knight and killing a tank. You need to just keep doing it until you're 100% certain it's dead for good. Because otherwise it might come to life again and start killing you again. This is sort of why I don't put credence in the 'coma thing'.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:
An anecdotal similarity: the German Gepard Flak tank of the Cold war had 2 x 35 mm autocannons, a caliber much to small to penetrate a contemporary Main Battle Tank. Yet it was tested and proven that if forced to fight, a Gepard Salvo could damage the optics, treads and turret mechanics so badly, that it could damage a MBT enough to retreat. It's the same principle like lasguns vs. Powerarmor.

It could also work to override the marine's senses. having the air an unending crackle of lasfire and his optical display much the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Heat resistant doesn't mean immune to heat. Enough concentrated lasgun fire will kill a marine. The armour will eventually fail. Lasgun shots aren't bullets.

That said, I'd like to address the whole "shoot them in their un-helmeted head" idea. How many CSM are running around without helmets? That's a loyalist thing. Most CSM have survived too long to be that stupid. Remember "Beware a man who has survived a long time in a very dangerous profession". And a lot of CSM have survived for millennia in a very dangerous profession.....


Well respectfully enough bullets would also ruin the armour. Especially if they are designed right.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/19 14:17:06


Post by: Squidworth


 Hellebore wrote:
It's also the only way I can countenance the casualty rate of Eldar on the table.

Their psycho active armour reacts to damage, plugging holes and releasing medication, such that the number of actually dead Eldar after a battle is very small


Or possibly soul stones were/are retrieved by comrades in the case of a defeat or victory?


Invulnerable so far as the order of dice rolls suggested above is a funny one, when you start considering what the source of the invuln is, is it psychic or from a physical source, I can't see an adamantine mantel taking effect before a normal save throw given the lore behind such things. Such an ambiguous topic in all fairness once you start down the rabbit hole(s)


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/19 22:53:12


Post by: OldMate


I thought oul stones only save their souls. For putting into the infinity circuit or wraith units. Their bodies being single use. Outside of VIPs of course.
Although even then say a heap of guardians get caught in a barrage of heavy artillery fire. Their armour is going to do diddly squat to keep them alive and their soul stones could be shattered by the blasts. So it's time to get nom nom nommed by Slaanesh. It's the same problem with the marine coma thing. You can be killed, and I'm sure most armies(especially a particularly guard unit) would make certain to not give the enemy the reprieve of recovering their injured. It is total war after-all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know about you guys but if I was a guard commander I'd prioritise this kind of operation, almost more than the battle itself. Afterall who the hell wants to have to kill the same enemies twice? Guard's strength is it can whittle down it's numerically inferior enemies and hold the battleground with numbers.
And as you're attacking you'd want to be moving heavy weapons teams and tanks up to cover your men, these would be great to deter the enemy a chance to recover their losses, or to make them risk losing more, which is effectively a bonus.

Hell even just laying intense artillery fire on areas you have contested with the enemy would work.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 04:55:02


Post by: Hellebore


 OldMate wrote:
I thought oul stones only save their souls. For putting into the infinity circuit or wraith units. Their bodies being single use. Outside of VIPs of course.
Although even then say a heap of guardians get caught in a barrage of heavy artillery fire. Their armour is going to do diddly squat to keep them alive and their soul stones could be shattered by the blasts. So it's time to get nom nom nommed by Slaanesh. It's the same problem with the marine coma thing. You can be killed, and I'm sure most armies(especially a particularly guard unit) would make certain to not give the enemy the reprieve of recovering their injured. It is total war after-all.



This is my point, there aren't enough eldar for them to keep going to war and being straight up killed that often. Soul stones are very hard though, and survive all sorts of things from space ship crashes to annihilated battlfields. Wraithbone alone is one of the toughest substances in the galaxy.

My expectation is that for the eldar to conduct war the way they do, with guardian armoured tissue paper, their psychoreactive suits are also damage reactive and can release drugs and have limited healing functions. eldar medicine is psychic in nature and if they decide to get prosthetics they are psychoplastic and indistinguishable from their normal limbs. Thus the material can mesh with their flesh in some way. All their technology is very organic and grown, so it makes sense they can mesh with their bodies in some way.

Ergo, it would take a very lethal hit to permanently kill an eldar as their suits would deform into the wounds and hold them together until they could be sung the song of healing.





How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 07:06:03


Post by: Matt Swain


Ok, this is classified and the inquisition will be after me for telling you this, but here's how IG forces defeat CSM:

Selected members of the guard leave their copies of "The imperials guardsman's uplifting primer" in the path of approaching CSM.

The first CSM to find it picks it up and starts reading, after a few seconds he's laughing uproariously and his buddies ask what's so funny.

He starts reading aloud from the IGUP and within 1i minute every CSM in earshot in on the ground ,doubled over, holding their bellies laughing so hard they're utterly helpless.

the guardsmen just creep in and plant grenades at the back of the neck collars of their armor and KRAK! Dead CSMs.

Of course the guardsmen who left their copies of the primer for the CSM to find are awarded medals for valor then executed for losing them but hey, it really sucks to be in the guard.



How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 10:00:54


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There’s also casualties on the tabletop not representing the ‘death’ of a model.

Now, background wise, a Bolter is very much designed to kill rather than maim or incapacitate. One of those goes off in your arm, and that side of chest is likely to go missing too.

But....other infantry weapons? Well, Lasguns are far more survivable. Indeed it’s noted the advantage/disadvantage is they cauterise the injury, preventing blood loss. So if you survive the initial hit (heat and kinetic energy), you’re at little risk of bleeding out. Shock might get you yet, but that’s still relatively survivable.

Ballistic weapons? Well, modern bullet proof vests (roughly comparable to Flak armour) will stop say, a shot to the chest penetrating the body. But depending on the calibre, you can still end up with broken ribs, which would take out of the immediate fight.

We can also delve into the old Inquisitor game. There, again if memory serves, a slice of Power Armour’s protection is ablative. A layer there to take the first couple of hits. In theory that’s all you’ll really need, as the wearer will be in amongst the foe. But if not, it’s protection is reduced, albeit it still remains impressive.

But the cabling and technogubbins? If a Lasgun hits those (again, heat and kinetic energy in play), it can deal damage which is easily fixed outside of the field, but for the time being is debilitating.

Astartes of all flavours then have their biological defences. Sure, a Meltagun or Plasma gun could evaporate limbs wholesale. Against most foes, that’s a death sentence due to shock. Astartes? Not so much. Synthetic combat stims keep them going, and their body does what it can to reduce the impact of such loss. Once you’re back, a bionic replacement can see you good as new.

So it could be that Eldar Armour is really good at preventing catastrophic injury, but not so great at preventing knock outs, windings, broken bones etc - stuff which you will ultimately survive, but prevent you fighting on further. Against artillery? It need only absorb enough of the blast to prevent organ trauma (such as bruising to the heart and that), despite the wearer being otherwise prone to temporary incapacitation. Bending like a Reed in the wind and that.

To the best of my knowledge, we’ve not really had an in-depth description for Mesh armour, beyond ‘it thickens at the point of impact’.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 10:19:24


Post by: kirotheavenger


Lasguns are hit or miss on that.
Some say it auto-cauterises the wound for you, so you're good.
Other sources say it flash boils the fluid and results in a steam explosion.
I'm more inclined to believe the latter, as they wouldn't have they wouldn't have the sort of exposure time in a single lasbolt to cauterise anything.

Isn't mesh always described as generally a literal mesh that acts almost like a non-newtonian fluid. It gets harder the harder you hit it. Allowing total freedom of movement but locking up instantaneously when hit by a bullet or whatever.
Makes

You're absolutely right though that casualties in the game aren't necessarily deaths. Just incapacitations in some way (maybe it's en entirely healthy guy carrying off a wounded comrade = two table top casualties).
40k is perhaps a bit more contrived in this though due to the sheer lethality of weapons it presents. When everyone is slinging around high explosives rockets to massive plasma bolts or ripping each other limb from limb with energy swords there isn't much room for injury.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 10:21:30


Post by: Not Online!!!


TBF, there are so many types of lasguns...

Vostroyan ones are basically Boltguns but with easy access ammo.

The standard one needs modifying (not liked if that happens, commisars get angry and so get techpriests)

Mind, autoguns are also a mixed bag, often described as more powerfull but logistically an issue to maintain over the standard lasgun patterns.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 10:38:54


Post by: kirotheavenger


Part of the point is there's so much hilariously contradicting fluff.
One says all lasguns are supposed to be functionally the same, each Forgeworld might have a different shape of stock or some extra greeblies but functionally its the same and things like powerpacks should even be interchangable.
Another says each Forgeworld uses entirely unique designs and matching one shipment of powercells to the equivalent lasgun is a logistical nightmare.

Personally, I don't really like the idea that there's no such thing as truth in 40k/it's all biased narrators or whatever.
But it's definitely the current state of things. Each writer uses what they want for plot contrivances.
Is it really any different from a generic Hollywood goon missing from 3ft with an assault rifle and then dying to a weak punch, vs the hero taking a sniper rifle to the chest, then murdering 50 Goons with a six round pistol?


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 11:24:21


Post by: Kayback


 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, this is classified and the inquisition will be after me for telling you this, but here's how IG forces defeat CSM:

Selected members of the guard leave their copies of "The imperials guardsman's uplifting primer" in the path of approaching CSM.

The first CSM to find it picks it up and starts reading, after a few seconds he's laughing uproariously and his buddies ask what's so funny.

He starts reading aloud from the IGUP and within 1i minute every CSM in earshot in on the ground ,doubled over, holding their bellies laughing so hard they're utterly helpless.

the guardsmen just creep in and plant grenades at the back of the neck collars of their armor and KRAK! Dead CSMs.

Of course the guardsmen who left their copies of the primer for the CSM to find are awarded medals for valor then executed for losing them but hey, it really sucks to be in the guard.




That.... that actually sounds like something someone's tried in the IoM.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 18:36:11


Post by: Grumblewartz


 Matt Swain wrote:
Ok, this is classified and the inquisition will be after me for telling you this, but here's how IG forces defeat CSM:

Selected members of the guard leave their copies of "The imperials guardsman's uplifting primer" in the path of approaching CSM.

The first CSM to find it picks it up and starts reading, after a few seconds he's laughing uproariously and his buddies ask what's so funny.

He starts reading aloud from the IGUP and within 1i minute every CSM in earshot in on the ground ,doubled over, holding their bellies laughing so hard they're utterly helpless.

the guardsmen just creep in and plant grenades at the back of the neck collars of their armor and KRAK! Dead CSMs.

Of course the guardsmen who left their copies of the primer for the CSM to find are awarded medals for valor then executed for losing them but hey, it really sucks to be in the guard.





How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 22:33:10


Post by: Hellebore


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s also casualties on the tabletop not representing the ‘death’ of a model.

Now, background wise, a Bolter is very much designed to kill rather than maim or incapacitate. One of those goes off in your arm, and that side of chest is likely to go missing too.

But....other infantry weapons? Well, Lasguns are far more survivable. Indeed it’s noted the advantage/disadvantage is they cauterise the injury, preventing blood loss. So if you survive the initial hit (heat and kinetic energy), you’re at little risk of bleeding out. Shock might get you yet, but that’s still relatively survivable.

Ballistic weapons? Well, modern bullet proof vests (roughly comparable to Flak armour) will stop say, a shot to the chest penetrating the body. But depending on the calibre, you can still end up with broken ribs, which would take out of the immediate fight.

We can also delve into the old Inquisitor game. There, again if memory serves, a slice of Power Armour’s protection is ablative. A layer there to take the first couple of hits. In theory that’s all you’ll really need, as the wearer will be in amongst the foe. But if not, it’s protection is reduced, albeit it still remains impressive.

But the cabling and technogubbins? If a Lasgun hits those (again, heat and kinetic energy in play), it can deal damage which is easily fixed outside of the field, but for the time being is debilitating.

Astartes of all flavours then have their biological defences. Sure, a Meltagun or Plasma gun could evaporate limbs wholesale. Against most foes, that’s a death sentence due to shock. Astartes? Not so much. Synthetic combat stims keep them going, and their body does what it can to reduce the impact of such loss. Once you’re back, a bionic replacement can see you good as new.

So it could be that Eldar Armour is really good at preventing catastrophic injury, but not so great at preventing knock outs, windings, broken bones etc - stuff which you will ultimately survive, but prevent you fighting on further. Against artillery? It need only absorb enough of the blast to prevent organ trauma (such as bruising to the heart and that), despite the wearer being otherwise prone to temporary incapacitation. Bending like a Reed in the wind and that.

To the best of my knowledge, we’ve not really had an in-depth description for Mesh armour, beyond ‘it thickens at the point of impact’.


That's my read on it. The armour isn't indestructible or anything, it's just very good at ensuring the wearer isn't dead if they're injured. Incapacitated sure, but keeping them alive is like the raison detre of the eldar, so it's only way I can parse such crappy armour for the majority of their civilian population...


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 23:13:57


Post by: Matt Swain


Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

Spoiler:


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/20 23:23:51


Post by: Racerguy180


If you see me running....you're already dead!


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/21 09:17:18


Post by: kirotheavenger


 Matt Swain wrote:
Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

Spoiler:

That's really not true. They're designed to take the edge off the blast.
Sure it wont help you if a 155mm shell IED goes off in your face, but it will save you from a smaller blast or from a larger blast further away.

What I do find amazing when reading memoirs of war and such is just how random death is.
On one occasion a man will take a 9 bullets to his chest and neck, and survive. On another they'll get shot in the arm once and die.
Not only that, but the comparatively few casualties that often occur in even hopeless last stands. Probably the most famous example is Omaha beach, renown as a total slaughter where the first waves were almost completely destroyed, yet they suffered less than 50% dead and wounded.
Wargames typically fudge this reality. Instead every small skirmish results in 75%+ casualties on the losing side, many entire squads are wiped to a man. Because they don't have proper suppression mechanics and often don't have any suppression mechanics at all.
Then, any wargames which introduce a campaign have to remedy that and fudge numbers so that one side doesn't have half their army dead every game.
For example, in Necromunda you can take a full multi-melta blast the face and fall into a molten slag furnace and surface with minor injuries almost every time. Not only that but you can crawl back to base despite the enemy gang completely surrounding you.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/21 10:06:33


Post by: OldMate


What I think is interesting about memoirs is the fatality of injuries.

I read an account of the defence of Tobruk

Basically early in the seige the Afrika Korps were establishing a foothold past one of the tank ditches so they could bring engineers and bridge it. They brought up maybe 30 soldiers armed heavily with machineguns, as you do, when you want to consolidate a position.The Australians organised a swift counter attack. A section led by the platoon leader crept as close as they could(not really close at all it is a desert and this as in front of their positions) then charged with bayonets and grenades(Honestly why is this not a rule when closing to melee in wargames?). One of the blokes copped a burst of a machinegun fire to the stomach and neck but pressed on(somehow), The Afrika Korps position was overrun and a melee ensued. The injured soldier killed several German soldiers, including one who was trying to shoot his CO. The Afrika Korps troops then were quickly overcome and routed(I mean it has to be damaging to moral if you're expecting a gunfight and 10 blokes charge through a hail of fire, and in the tail of a handful of grenades get into you with frickin 55cm long bayonets). The injured soldier was taken back to the lines but died of his injuries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps morale rules need modifying as well?


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/21 12:47:41


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 kirotheavenger wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
Fun fact about body armor: Those anti bomb armor suits you see people wearing in some situations? They are really only meant to keep your body intact so its much easier for the the forensics and clean up teams to deal with.

it's essentially meant to be a very expensive body bag.

Spoiler:

That's really not true. They're designed to take the edge off the blast.
Sure it wont help you if a 155mm shell IED goes off in your face, but it will save you from a smaller blast or from a larger blast further away.

What I do find amazing when reading memoirs of war and such is just how random death is.
On one occasion a man will take a 9 bullets to his chest and neck, and survive. On another they'll get shot in the arm once and die.
Not only that, but the comparatively few casualties that often occur in even hopeless last stands. Probably the most famous example is Omaha beach, renown as a total slaughter where the first waves were almost completely destroyed, yet they suffered less than 50% dead and wounded.
Wargames typically fudge this reality. Instead every small skirmish results in 75%+ casualties on the losing side, many entire squads are wiped to a man. Because they don't have proper suppression mechanics and often don't have any suppression mechanics at all.
Then, any wargames which introduce a campaign have to remedy that and fudge numbers so that one side doesn't have half their army dead every game.
For example, in Necromunda you can take a full multi-melta blast the face and fall into a molten slag furnace and surface with minor injuries almost every time. Not only that but you can crawl back to base despite the enemy gang completely surrounding you.


its basically because gamers (in general) are intrested in, and looking for, a "cinematic" battle that is has a clear, decisive winner & looser, with the looser vanquished and beyond recovery. a more "realistic" firefight that consists of two armies both on their belt buckles, sat several hundred meters apart taking pot shots at fleeting targets for 6 hours, before one side withdraws, just isn't as "exciting".

In campaigns, we run into the problem that most fights were indecisive skirmishes between small units and large "set piece" battles of the type most wargames represent are very rare. When they did happen, they tended to be decisive and no comeback for the loser was possible. But that's not fun, so we fudge it.

your right, real world casualty figures are often much lower than Hollywood would have you believe, but its important to remember that most official casualty reports are for the unit as a whole, which almost always includes troops not involved in the fight. For example, the 1st infantry division, one of the two that stormed Omaha, did so with just one of its three regiments, and only about 3,000 troops out of over 15,000* actually stormed a defended beach, and so the casualty reports (which are normally reported at for the division as a whole) can dilute the reality of how badly damaged the combat units are. the "troops to tail ratio" goes up dramatically as the unit size increases, so casualty reports for corps and field armies include vast numbers of soldiers who almost never get shot at, again diluting the apparent losses of the combat arms.

In ww2, to support a division's roughly 10,000 "fighting troops" (ie soldiers whose actual job in the army was to kill the enemy), it took about 35,000 men total, spread between the division itself, the corps and army it was subordinate too, plus support staff deep in the rear, in England, and even back in the US, involved in training, medical care and recuperation, rear area logistics, etc). this figure is known as the "divisional slice", and is and was a important metric in war planning as it gives you a better idea of the total troops needed to achieve an effect)


*for those wondering about how a difference between the size of the regiments and the size of the division, the Div includes a lot of things like regiment sized formation of heavy artillery, plus engineers, signals units, logistic, medical, mechanics, Anti-air and other service troops, etc, that are needed to support the fighting infantry, but dont fall under the command of the 3 regimental combat teams.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/22 13:44:11


Post by: mrFickle


I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/22 13:46:23


Post by: BaconCatBug


mrFickle wrote:
I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless
You talk big for someone within artillery barrage range.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/22 14:03:14


Post by: xerxeskingofking


mrFickle wrote:
I doubt guard could stand against CSM. Especially veterans of the long war.

CSM wouldn’t engage in a battle if they didn’t think they could win it and I doubt they would employ trench warfare against the IG.

If CSM got up close, which is the preferred tactic of many CSM, they would tear IG to prices quickly. Deathclaw drop pods or some other form of attack where you don’t see them coming would render the IG defenceless



and then the IG flatten the area with arty rounds shooting "final defensive fire"/"broken arrow" fire missions, since they know, with a high degree of certainty, the co-ordinates of the position.

but your right, CSM would normally not enguage a battle they couldn't win. the fact that many, many worlds surrounded the eye of terror for thousands of years without being slaughtered every decade or two tells us that the IG can and does stand off CSM raids on a regular basis.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/22 15:06:18


Post by: Da Boss


We had a thread here recently with people arguing apparently earnestly that 5 space marines could conquer an entire planet.

So I mean, knowing that Imperial Space Marines are about twice as powerful as the average traitor marine, it should only take a squad of 10 to conquer most planets.

I guess it might take twelve or so if the planet is well defended or particularly big.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/22 16:34:00


Post by: Rebel4ever85


Depending on who is telling the story a space marine can be as good as superman, but that is just silly. I think the truth is they are superior to normal humans physically but and mentally and have better gear..which is great but they still die like anything else if you shoot them with the right gun. Shooting them with lasguns is pretty dumb and liable to get your head blown off before you can do any damage...however like Jurgen in Ciaphas Cane series does...shoot him with a meltagun and you bagged yourself a space marine kill.

Basically the Space marines are not that godly when you use the right weapons. Heavy weapons are the big winner against space marines, autocannons, heavy bolters and the like will shred a space marine without much trouble.

In short - With the proper weapons Imperial guard can beat anything. However if you only give your guard lasguns they can't stand up to heavy infantry of any kind very well. Anyone using mass lasgun's is basically just trying to get lucky throwing men at them...but this is a extremely poor use of men IMO.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/26 22:53:59


Post by: OldMate


To be effective marines and csm need to make full use of deployment options against softer and more critical targets. Even then it would be tough(any commander worth his salt would recognise this and cover such areas with artillery so any potential attack would be severly punished). They do not by themselves have the numbers to fight guard symmetrically. Unless (and they really should because chaos NEEDs this) they have their own regiments of guard equivalents(tyrants legion was on the right track IMO). Cultists are not proffessional or generally equpited well enough to do this, they need real regular soldiers, logistics, artillery etc. Then they could totally fight guard with the marines being a potent force multiplyer rather than the main hitting force.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/26 22:55:21


Post by: RaptorusRex


A squad of CSM in the open are soft targets for anything like a Leman Russ, a Valkyrie, or artillery. That's what's going to be doing the work, not the lasguns.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/01/27 01:42:53


Post by: TangoTwoBravo


The role of the noble lasgun is simply to extend the range of the Imperial Guard's greatest weapon. Chaos Space Marines stand little chance against the bayonet.




How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/02/03 18:12:56


Post by: Insurgency Walker


US Army training was about the same. I remember being instructed during a demo with the drill Sergeant on H2H rifle techniques to "swing like you have a pair". I was the attacker, a chopping strike from high Guard and he was defending with a classic high block. His M-16a1 handgards were not up to the task and shattered. The gas tube was mangled. He looked at the rifle in disgust and said " that's why I'm a tanker....".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And THAT is why the CSM have such a hard time with the guard. They have a fething tank division for every individual CSM.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/11 04:52:21


Post by: Jarms48


It's certainly not impossible.

1) Guard have numbers, lots and lots of numbers:

Take a civilized world of 10 billion people. Not too dissimilar to our Earth today. They have a standing PDF equivalent to 1% of their total population. That's 100 million PDF soldiers, then the Imperium come along and demand their 10% Guard tithe.

That's 10 million soldiers taken from the best of the PDF.

A hive world with a population of 100 billion can tithe 100 million Guardsmen.

The true scale of the Guard is quite crazy. That's also using very conservative numbers as that 1% figure is our current population underarms. A highly militarised society like the Imperium with a completely war driven economy could be as high and sustainable as 10% of the population.

2) Weapons: The Guard has weapons that can kill tanks. If they can kill tanks they can defeat power armour. Missile launchers would probably be the most common form of anti-astarte weapon. Other common anti-astarte weapons would be lascannons and melta guns. Plasma guns of course too, but in the lore at least they're typically rarer in the Imperial Guard.

Then there's the heavier weaponry. An astartes would be screwed if they encountered an armoured unit in open terrain. Battle cannons and conqueror cannons with AP ammunition, demolisher cannons, annihilator lascannons, vanquisher cannons, and the incredibly rare executioner plasma cannons. Then there's the artillery, both self-propelled and carriage mounted variants.

3) Infantry tactics would then use the 8 riflemen in the squad to distract a single astarte then the missile launcher operator would take their shot. Obviously it would be rare to find a single astarte by themselves, so you'd scale this up to a squad of astartes against an infantry platoon (even potentially an infantry company). If for whatever reason the Guardsmen deployed don't have any kind of anti-tank weapons, they could always start bundling up their frag grenades (which was a common WW1 anti-tank tactic). If we stretch this even more, say something like an under-equipped feudal world regiment. They'd be stuck with attempted to hit weakpoints.

Tanks and artillery is easier. You use your mobility, range, and firepower to every advantage.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/11 09:44:04


Post by: OldMate


Well during the 2nd punic war the Romans moblilsed `~16% of their population. Which is insane. They fielded approximately half of that at Cannae, the day of the Republic's(And Empire) worst defeat. Which I can see a PDF force doing in time of invasion.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/11 12:38:35


Post by: mrFickle


More soldiers just means more blood for the blood god


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 00:51:18


Post by: Jarms48


 OldMate wrote:
Well during the 2nd punic war the Romans moblilsed `~16% of their population. Which is insane. They fielded approximately half of that at Cannae, the day of the Republic's(And Empire) worst defeat. Which I can see a PDF force doing in time of invasion.


It's pretty impressive for a classical era fighting force. In Germany during WW2 they reached over 30% of their population, but by that point they were conscripting teenagers and the elderly. Though I'm sure the Imperium wouldn't really care about that either if it came to defending one of their worlds.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 05:59:58


Post by: tauist


Heavy Bolter is the imperium's designated weapon of choice against power armoured targets. Lasguns are for dealing with civvies and for general crowd control.

Last time I checked, the guard has ample access to HB's and even more powerful antitank weaponry



How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 09:04:25


Post by: mrFickle


As if the CSM are just going to sit let AM shoot at them. And as if the AM are going to give out loads of heavy bolters. In any AM army 80% of the force is using a lasting. The AM main weapon against any foe is attrition, simple vast numbers of soldiers all charging to their doom until the enemy run out of bullets.

The main problem I see that an AM force would need to overcome is not having half of your force seduced by chaos. One minute it’s trench foot, the next minute your a pox Walker infecting your trenches with papa nurgles love


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 13:18:03


Post by: kirotheavenger


The reason 80% of Guardsmen are armed with lasguns is because CSM aren't a serious threat.

Yes, if you happen to be the one regiment in thr entire sector that's unlucky enough to be caught in the path of the CSM's advance, you're in for a bad time.
In that situation, you'll have to try and make use of thr special/heavy weapons you do have, or hope for external support.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 19:00:26


Post by: mrFickle


But also AM are not sent to deal with CSM, that’s the SMs job


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 23:17:43


Post by: Jarms48


mrFickle wrote:

The main problem I see that an AM force would need to overcome is not having half of your force seduced by chaos. One minute it’s trench foot, the next minute your a pox Walker infecting your trenches with papa nurgles love


This is the most accurate defence against Guard vs Chaos. Guard certainly have the ability to kill marines in general, but the risk of them falling to Chaos when in proximity to it is their biggest issue. If they're fighting true Chaos Marine legions then the risk of them being corrupted is even higher.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/12 23:27:55


Post by: Gert


Their devotion to the Emperor and the watchful eyes of the Commissars will keep them in line. Failing that an intense bout of church/beatings/executions until a new batch of fresh loyal faithful troops is sent to replace them.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/13 03:47:13


Post by: Las


Point the weapon at the enemy. Breathe a prayer to the Throne.

Shoot.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/13 05:57:19


Post by: Altima


I think on whether or not the guard can stand up to CSM's depends on the context.

CSM's and SM's aren't supposed to be main line combatants. They're special forces. We should only be seeing them at pivotal points in combat and on the battlefield, unless we're dealing with something like entire chapters/legions taking the battlefield, and even then, outside of HH, should be supplemented by massive amounts of IG and traitor guard/cultists.

As mentioned before, an entrenched or mechanized guard with heavy weapons and armored/artillery support will eat even the toughest CSM's up. So that's a big incentive for the CSM's not to provide them with a target--they'll do decapitation strikes, terror tactics, sabotage, spies, and so on.

CSM's have several tactical and strategic advantages over their counterparts:

1) They're usually on the offensive. This means that they can pick when and where to strike, go after soft targets, and generally deny battle until where they're mostly suited.

2) They tend to have hidden or otherwise unassailable bases, like in the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom. This means that the Imperium can never take the fight directly to them, except in cases where Chaos entrenches themselves (which is why I find the Sabbat Crusade so interesting--the Imperium is on the strategic offensive against Chaos). This means that no matter how badly the CSM's are mangled, they can almost always break and retreat to lick their wounds.

3) They still have an integrated command structure with their space forces. CSM's don't have to rely on another branch for their supplies or transportation. If they command their ships to do something, those ships will do it.

4) CSM's command structure is probably more secure than the average Guard's. They've been at war for centuries if not more, and unless someone manages to take out the very top head honcho, killing someone high up won't necessarily cause the war to turn to gak. Contrast this with the Guard where it's clear that for every hero like Yorrick, Gaunt, etc., there's 20 incompetent sycophants that are around by sheer accident or overt (moral, non-chaosy) corruption.

5) CSM's have almost unlimited troops with certain caveats. If they can, they can turn whole swathes of prisoners into slaves into sacrifices to summon daemons or plague zombies. They can create cultists or even train up traitor equivalents of regiments. The caveats are, of course, daemons have a time limit and cultists are extremely poorly trained, but your average PDF is little better trained too, so it's a wash. You can believe that the CSM's will happily release this fodder onto the battlefield to act as cover while they assault vulnerable support positions.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/13 19:32:14


Post by: mrFickle


 Gert wrote:
Their devotion to the Emperor and the watchful eyes of the Commissars will keep them in line. Failing that an intense bout of church/beatings/executions until a new batch of fresh loyal faithful troops is sent to replace them.


Tell that to to the blood pact


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/13 21:53:06


Post by: Gert


They didn't believe hard enough and since they are traitors they're as good as dead anyway.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 11:36:31


Post by: OldMate


 Gert wrote:
They didn't believe hard enough and since they are traitors they're as good as dead anyway.

Blood Pact ain't traitors. They were not part of the imperium, they're their own entity.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 11:50:32


Post by: Gert


Many BP are former Guard or PDF, especially officers. It's one of the reasons they are able to counter the Guard so effectively, they know the tactics/weapons/strengths/weaknesses. Most Cults just pick up gear when they need it but the BP actively takes prisoners, armour, weapons and supplies from the battlefield to make sure it stays an effective fighting force. Why train soldiers and produce their equipment if you can corrupt them and turn them to your side, bringing their gear with them.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 12:24:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Altima wrote:
I think on whether or not the guard can stand up to CSM's depends on the context.

CSM's and SM's aren't supposed to be main line combatants. They're special forces. We should only be seeing them at pivotal points in combat and on the battlefield, unless we're dealing with something like entire chapters/legions taking the battlefield, and even then, outside of HH, should be supplemented by massive amounts of IG and traitor guard/cultists.

As mentioned before, an entrenched or mechanized guard with heavy weapons and armored/artillery support will eat even the toughest CSM's up. So that's a big incentive for the CSM's not to provide them with a target--they'll do decapitation strikes, terror tactics, sabotage, spies, and so on.

CSM's have several tactical and strategic advantages over their counterparts:

3) They still have an integrated command structure with their space forces. CSM's don't have to rely on another branch for their supplies or transportation. If they command their ships to do something, those ships will do it.


Hmm, not sure I agree here.

Some of the former Legions? Sure. They’ll have materiel stashed away considered rare. But, they also left a lot unrecovered materiel on Terra when Horus’ assault failed.

Beyond that? They all have their own pacts with the Dark Mechanicum. And it’s the Dark Mechanicum that provides the quantity and quality needed. As so many rely upon the DM, nobody can singularly strong arm them. As such the DM can set its own prices for their services.

The majority of CSM forces are described as independent warbands, able to do as they wish. But with that comes no permanent holdings. No recruitment worlds etc. If a whole Chapter turns? Sure they’ll retain Tech Marines. But many are dribs and drabs, and may be heading off with little more than the armour and kit they have at the time.

So they very much do rely on others for resupply and maintenance. You might well have the knowledge to repair your ships....but where’s your shipyard and materials to affect said repairs? Same for replacing Rhinos, Predators and Land Raiders etc. You can absolutely maintain them, but to replace them requires workshops, and those require raw materials. Those have to come from somewhere. With relatively few having wholly owned planets, you need to go raiding for them, because nobody on your own side is going to give them for free.

CSM face all sorts of logistical challenges Loyalists simply don’t, because Chaos isn’t as unified and structured as the Imperium.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 12:30:37


Post by: Gert


The secret ingredient is crime Grotsnik


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 12:40:44


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh indeed, but a botched raid can leave you even worse off. Yet, to get the goodies you need (beyond victims to sell to the DM), you need to attack something kinda substantial, and so more likely to be defended.

I mean, if you need to get your Predators back in working condition, you need materials suited to it. A botched raid could see you leaving empty handed, a brother or two short and with a freshly knackered Land Raider added to the bill.

That the Traitor warbands haven’t collapsed into diminishing returns is testament to their abilities though!


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 18:26:19


Post by: mrFickle


CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 19:03:59


Post by: The_Real_Chris


They should be useless. They are like a regular army today. Here the sharpshooter, machine gun and support weapons actually do the damage in an infantry platoon. The infantry are there to carry the ammo and shape the battlefield, anything they actually manage to shoot is a bonus.

Fluff wise CSM should carve through any Guard force they meet as they fight on their terms. Guard victories come with massive preparation or somehow managing to hit a CSM force with the appropriate massive force by somehow cornering a highly elusive enemy.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 19:35:11


Post by: Void__Dragon


"The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them."
— Maor the Scarred, Siege-Champion of the Scargivers, Warhammer 40,000: Black Crusade


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 20:00:32


Post by: Gert


mrFickle wrote:
CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy

That's a gross oversimplification of events. Yes, large swathes of the Mechanicum did turn but they didn't bring their Forge Worlds with them, and they had to find and build whole new Forge Worlds in Eyespace or the Maelstrom. The Imperium can mass-produce weapons and ammo for Loyalist chapters because of the huge amount of Forge and Manufactorum worlds. Need the gear to outfit a whole new Chapter, done. Need to replace the gear of another Chapter, done.
CSM don't have the power base to be able to do that. Plus the fact the Legions/Renegade Chapters are incredibly fractured entities, with even the more "stable" ones like the DG and WB still having internal conflicts, means that raiding and looting is very much a thing CSM do.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 21:02:46


Post by: OldMate


The_Real_Chris wrote:
They should be useless. They are like a regular army today. Here the sharpshooter, machine gun and support weapons actually do the damage in an infantry platoon. The infantry are there to carry the ammo and shape the battlefield, anything they actually manage to shoot is a bonus.

Fluff wise CSM should carve through any Guard force they meet as they fight on their terms. Guard victories come with massive preparation or somehow managing to hit a CSM force with the appropriate massive force by somehow cornering a highly elusive enemy.


The issue I have with your point is that the guard literally has numbers of field able tanks and artillery more comparable to the CSM infantry numbers. Guar infantry don't need to be great, they have abject superiority in material. Infantry wins skirmishes, tanks win battles, artillery wins wars. Artillery is the king of the battlefield(it does not help that marine vehicles are garbage in comparrison to guard vehicles). Artillery stops the enemy moving without mechanised support(yeah, power armour might protect more than no armour, but you're still moving at foot pace through the bombardment area so you're going to take heavy losses) and can be killing them when they're 30kms distant and not a threat to you. Guard just need to dig in, and cover their positions with artillery fire and heavy weapons teams. Or on the offensive, just have tanks and basilisks pounding the absolute crap out of any resistance that shows itself. CSM lack anywhere near the level of support guard have. To be viable CSM need their own guard equivalent(as I mentioned before not cultists, actual proffessionals).

To add to that most CSM groups get around in fractured warbands with little to no logistics, while the guard literally has a colossal machine of war behind it the like of which has never been before seen. This here is the most important point, guard can rely on reinforcement and replacement/repair of broken equipment, they have recovery teams whose sole job is to recover and repair damaged vehicles. And their stuff is so much more expendable which is improtant in a war zone, things break and when they do any enemy worth tehir salt is going to take as much advantage as they can. What the hell is an undersupplied CSM warband going to do when their favorite landraider gets its a track blown off by a land mine and a much more a techmarine takes a las-cannon full to the chest trying to recover it? Bam, there goes their ability to care for their motopool.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/14 21:58:50


Post by: Pyroalchi


The_Real_Chris wrote:
They should be useless. They are like a regular army today. Here the sharpshooter, machine gun and support weapons actually do the damage in an infantry platoon. The infantry are there to carry the ammo and shape the battlefield, anything they actually manage to shoot is a bonus.

Fluff wise CSM should carve through any Guard force they meet as they fight on their terms. Guard victories come with massive preparation or somehow managing to hit a CSM force with the appropriate massive force by somehow cornering a highly elusive enemy.


I think it was said before but what do Marines use to kill CSM (and vice versa): Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, missile launchers (heavy) bolters and Krak grenades. What does Guard have in abundance? Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and (to a lesser extend) krak grenades... Every single infantry squad can run around with an Marine killing weapon. And ad long as only one in a hundred (or even a thousand) gets lucky, CSM would technically loose a war of attrition as it is much cheaper and faster to "train" and arm 1000 Guardsmen than a CSM.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/15 07:53:06


Post by: Eldenfirefly


Flip that question around and isn't it the same? How can a cultist possibly stand up to loyalist space marine once it gets close in. Same answer, just throw in as many bodies as it takes to do the job.

I mean, arguably, cultists have even less cohesion and less equipment than the typical AM army because they are just a ragtag band of cultists with scrapped together/captured equipment.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/15 13:25:13


Post by: mrFickle


 Gert wrote:
mrFickle wrote:
CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy

That's a gross oversimplification of events. Yes, large swathes of the Mechanicum did turn but they didn't bring their Forge Worlds with them, and they had to find and build whole new Forge Worlds in Eyespace or the Maelstrom. The Imperium can mass-produce weapons and ammo for Loyalist chapters because of the huge amount of Forge and Manufactorum worlds. Need the gear to outfit a whole new Chapter, done. Need to replace the gear of another Chapter, done.
CSM don't have the power base to be able to do that. Plus the fact the Legions/Renegade Chapters are incredibly fractured entities, with even the more "stable" ones like the DG and WB still having internal conflicts, means that raiding and looting is very much a thing CSM do.


There are thousands of planets of devoted cultists and slaves in the eye of terror, the black legion very much has the ability to manufacture their ordinance, of course what they make has changed greatly over the years. Some CSM have no idea what they are doing but some of them are part of a great engine of war that could not work if it was picking at the carcass of the imperium.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/15 14:49:15


Post by: Gert


The Black Legion is only united in two aspects:
1 - Serving Abbadon, which even then is tenuous at best considering as soon as the Rift opened the coherent effort of the 13th BC fell apart and everyone went off pillaging and burning things.
2 - They wear black somewhere on their armour.
Abbadon commands a lot of forces but they're split about 25% through pacts with the other Legions that get broken all the time and who are all actively working to dethrone him as Warmaster, 25% are his own Black Legion who still fight each other all the time, 25% are Renegades who NEED to ally with Abbadon to avoid being dead and the remaining 25% are Daemons who are only truly loyal to the God that spawned them.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/15 22:46:19


Post by: OldMate


Also Id like to point out that Black legion literally failed like 12 BCs before they eventually succeeded, and it was at the time of all these BCs the most organised, united and largest CSM force.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/15 23:30:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


mrFickle wrote:
CSM don’t have to steal stuff, they have manufacturing equipment dating back to pre heresy, which will include STCs and half the mechanicus turned over to the heresy


Not borne out by the background at all.

The former Legions lost their home worlds and holdings post Siege of Terra. They never got the chance to calmly pack up their good stuff because they were pursued and harassed all the way to the Eye of Terror, where they were effectively quarantined.

We see this in stories set in the immediate aftermath, with the Legions largely falling apart as they warred over what resources they had left. This is why in the modern era they have an ostensibly lower technological base compared to Loyalists. When resources are tight, you maintain what’s easiest to maintain. Assault Cannons (barrels need changing after every engagement, tricky to service at the best of times) are dropped in favour of Reaper Autocannon. Anti-Grav stuff discarded entirely because they’re a total sod to maintain at the best of times.

As for the Dark Mechanicum? Yeah you get nothing for free. Ever. You want their services, you’re meeting their price. Could be souls. Could be a specific relic. Could be something incredibly esoteric. But you’ve bugger all choice in the matter. Whatever it is they’re charging, you better be able to cough up. And every other warband is in need of their aid too, and aren’t above waiting for you to gather the goodies then following your down the metaphorical dark alley.

This is where Chaos has the biggest problem. They don’t have the same logistical arrangements as the Imperium. Every warband is just a couple of disastrous failures away from extinction, either because they lose enough bodies and materiel, or because they’re weakened to the point the next warband makes a move, claiming their holdings and possessions.

This is why Fabius Bile gets away with his nefarious activities. He’s needed by everyone, whether they admit it or not. He can work wonders with even the mankiest gene seed, and even enhance your mortal followers, after a fashion.

Oh, and on geneseed? You want some purer stuff, you gotta go mess with Loyalist Astartes. You know. The guys with the better equipment. The guys with the better resources. The guys on a more or less equal footing to you.

Are you a fledgling band of Traitors, still in the process of scrubbing out your Aquila’s? Fingers crossed a more established warband doesn’t take you out for your gear, guns and geneseed. Because they can and will do it if they think they can get away with it. Sure, they could try to recruit you. If you’re lucky that’s what’ll happen, But hey, why recruit say, 10 new turncoats when you can harvest their geneseed and have a reasonable shot at gaining 20 new battle brothers instead?

In short? Chaos isn’t unified. Chaos is not carey sharey. They’re Pirates, vagabonds, scoundrels and thieves because they have to be. It’s every post-human for themself, even in the Black Legion where your position is determined solely by your guile and ambition. You want something, you pay for it, and it’s rare that you’ll have much power in the bargaining.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/15 23:31:20


Post by: Gert


They failed not a single BC, that's just a trash meme like "all Dark Angels are traitors" and "Magnus did nothing wrong".
1st was to get Drachnyen and secure Abbadons place as Warmaster. 100% completed and a win.
2nd was to place a curse on Belis Corona, am important Imperial dockyard. They did that.
3rd was to destroy the remains of a Saint who was prophesied to defeat the BL. The remains got destroyed, prophecy averted.
4th was to destroy the Fortress world of El'phanor and kill the Kromarch bloodline. Both done.
5th was to secure an alliance with Doombreed by wiping out 2 chapters. Victory.
6th was to kill a rival of Abbadon and subvert his warband. Rival got impaled on the Talon at the moment of victory.
7th was the Ghost War where Abbadon slaughter nearly the entire Blood Angels chapter, took loads of their gene seed and was only seen off when the Charcharadons showed up at the last minute. Pretty solid win.
8th was a colossal ritual to gain Tzeentch's favour. Abbadon got the favour and killed billions.
9th was when the Antecanis Massacre happened. Abbadon starves an important dockyard of its workers by razing Antecanis and butchering the population.
10th is very badly written but still the Iron Hands get their bricks flipped and Abbadon secures an alliance with Perturabo.
11th has Abbadon enslave thousands of Orks to do tests on their psychic power. Shenanigans ensue.
12th was the Gothic War where Abbadon ruins the Gothic sector, steals 2 Blackstone fortresses and blows up the rest in the system.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/16 06:59:21


Post by: Table


The whole topic is akin to how can batman beat superman. With that being said (and mostly stated to steer away the "realism" people) Im not sure that they do.

While CSM are indeed a elite power armor force they tend to lose in most publications not focused on them. But, being a elite force, they are handled much the same way marines are. And to answer that, Marines dont lose to guard.

A more probable answer as to why the guard doesnt win most encounters with the spikey boys is because the CSM are still a rapid insertion shock trooper force. For attrition warfare chaos turns to renegade guard or throngs of cultists/demons.

A CSM strike upon the IG will likely be to cut command lines and communications/leadership.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/16 11:57:12


Post by: Iracundus


 Gert wrote:

12th was the Gothic War where Abbadon ruins the Gothic sector, steals 2 Blackstone fortresses and blows up the rest in the system.


I do not call Abaddon a failure but neither is he a total success.

Abaddon was going for all 6, got 3, then lost 1 back to the Imperials (and getting his Planet Killer flagship destroyed and needing to be rebuilt) before ending the war with 2 Blackstone Fortresses in his hands. I would call that a failure considering the amount of time and resources invested and him ultimately calling off the effort to get the rest. 2/6 isn't good.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/16 12:00:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Still better than none, and he inflicted heavy losses on an entire Imperial Battlefleet.

You know, this needs a thread of its own I think


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/16 14:32:28


Post by: Iracundus


The Gothic War lasted 21 years and that's all Abaddon had to show for it in the end. Yes, he got 2 Blackstone Fortresses and that was better than nothing, but compared to the original objective of 6, it was a failure.

Compare in contrast, the Necrons devastate the Orpheus Sector in less than 1 year, and recently the Nurgle aligned Chaos forces devastate the Charadon sector, again in less than a year. Abaddon took 21 times longer to do the same thing...and even then did worse because the Gothic Sector survived his war, whereas the Orpheus Sector was dissolved back into wilderness space by the Imperium.



 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This is where Chaos has the biggest problem. They don’t have the same logistical arrangements as the Imperium. Every warband is just a couple of disastrous failures away from extinction, either because they lose enough bodies and materiel, or because they’re weakened to the point the next warband makes a move, claiming their holdings and possessions.


This.

War is an expensive activity and most of the smaller warbands are basically operating on a raiding and looting system. CSM society within the Eye of Terror is a squabbling mess of internecine struggles and intrigues. Support is based around personal charisma or pacts based around traded services or goods. There isn't any mention of anything approaching a large scale organized logistics system like that feeding the Imperial Guard, and the more maintenance intensive stuff was discarded in favor of more reliable stuff like Reaper autocannons. A single bolt shell if you think about it is supposed to be a difficult to manufacture item in comparison to the lasgun's cheap and expendable power packs. For a really small warband, they might actually run a net loss in material if they expend their ammunition on cannon fodder. I can see such smaller warbands being effectively in thrall to the Dark Mechanicum forge world that is willing to supply them. Sort of the old "company store" policy.

This feel was deliberate and was mentioned in the 2nd edition Chaos Codex design notes by Andy Chambers. The whole purpose was to create a more archaic barbaric feel compared to the cleaner lines of regular Imperial SM.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/16 15:07:45


Post by: Gert


Yes, those Necrons with immensely advanced weaponry, immortal troops, entire worlds pre-seeded with hundreds of armies, and leaders millions of years old. Wonder why the forces of Chaos did worse than them.


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/16 21:07:23


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 OldMate wrote:

The issue I have with your point is that the guard literally has numbers of field able tanks and artillery more comparable to the CSM infantry numbers. Guard infantry don't need to be great, they have abject superiority in material. Infantry wins skirmishes, tanks win battles, artillery wins wars. Artillery is the king of the battlefield(it does not help that marine vehicles are garbage in comparison to guard vehicles). Artillery stops the enemy moving without mechanised support(yeah, power armour might protect more than no armour, but you're still moving at foot pace through the bombardment area so you're going to take heavy losses) and can be killing them when they're 30kms distant and not a threat to you. Guard just need to dig in, and cover their positions with artillery fire and heavy weapons teams. Or on the offensive, just have tanks and basilisks pounding the absolute crap out of any resistance that shows itself. CSM lack anywhere near the level of support guard have. To be viable CSM need their own guard equivalent(as I mentioned before not cultists, actual professionals).

To add to that most CSM groups get around in fractured warbands with little to no logistics, while the guard literally has a colossal machine of war behind it the like of which has never been before seen. This here is the most important point, guard can rely on reinforcement and replacement/repair of broken equipment, they have recovery teams whose sole job is to recover and repair damaged vehicles. And their stuff is so much more expendable which is improtant in a war zone, things break and when they do any enemy worth tehir salt is going to take as much advantage as they can. What the hell is an under-supplied CSM warband going to do when their favourite landraider gets its a track blown off by a land mine and a much more a techmarine takes a las-cannon full to the chest trying to recover it? Bam, there goes their ability to care for their motopool.


All that could be applied to many historical scenarios. For example WW2 the French had more and vastly better gear than the Germans. However the latter concentrated what they had and used it better. Astartes are primarily highly mobile, able to concentrate force like nothing else. Its no good having an amazing artillery park if an orbital strike and subsequent insertion wipes it out. Guard have many advantages but have to bring that firepower to bear. CSM have many disadvantages but are expert at frustrating the enemies ability to bring them to battle on their terms. So you ensure the engagements play to your strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:


I think it was said before but what do Marines use to kill CSM (and vice versa): Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, missile launchers (heavy) bolters and Krak grenades. What does Guard have in abundance? Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and (to a lesser extend) krak grenades... Every single infantry squad can run around with an Marine killing weapon. And ad long as only one in a hundred (or even a thousand) gets lucky, CSM would technically loose a war of attrition as it is much cheaper and faster to "train" and arm 1000 Guardsmen than a CSM.


Hence why the fluff doesn't show CSMs fighting attritional battles. When they lose is when they get cornered and the guard can use that attrition against them (until their morale goes).


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/20 21:20:40


Post by: OldMate


The_Real_Chris wrote:
 OldMate wrote:

The issue I have with your point is that the guard literally has numbers of field able tanks and artillery more comparable to the CSM infantry numbers. Guard infantry don't need to be great, they have abject superiority in material. Infantry wins skirmishes, tanks win battles, artillery wins wars. Artillery is the king of the battlefield(it does not help that marine vehicles are garbage in comparison to guard vehicles). Artillery stops the enemy moving without mechanised support(yeah, power armour might protect more than no armour, but you're still moving at foot pace through the bombardment area so you're going to take heavy losses) and can be killing them when they're 30kms distant and not a threat to you. Guard just need to dig in, and cover their positions with artillery fire and heavy weapons teams. Or on the offensive, just have tanks and basilisks pounding the absolute crap out of any resistance that shows itself. CSM lack anywhere near the level of support guard have. To be viable CSM need their own guard equivalent(as I mentioned before not cultists, actual professionals).

To add to that most CSM groups get around in fractured warbands with little to no logistics, while the guard literally has a colossal machine of war behind it the like of which has never been before seen. This here is the most important point, guard can rely on reinforcement and replacement/repair of broken equipment, they have recovery teams whose sole job is to recover and repair damaged vehicles. And their stuff is so much more expendable which is improtant in a war zone, things break and when they do any enemy worth tehir salt is going to take as much advantage as they can. What the hell is an under-supplied CSM warband going to do when their favourite landraider gets its a track blown off by a land mine and a much more a techmarine takes a las-cannon full to the chest trying to recover it? Bam, there goes their ability to care for their motopool.


All that could be applied to many historical scenarios. For example WW2 the French had more and vastly better gear than the Germans. However the latter concentrated what they had and used it better. Astartes are primarily highly mobile, able to concentrate force like nothing else. Its no good having an amazing artillery park if an orbital strike and subsequent insertion wipes it out. Guard have many advantages but have to bring that firepower to bear. CSM have many disadvantages but are expert at frustrating the enemies ability to bring them to battle on their terms. So you ensure the engagements play to your strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pyroalchi wrote:


I think it was said before but what do Marines use to kill CSM (and vice versa): Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, missile launchers (heavy) bolters and Krak grenades. What does Guard have in abundance? Powerweapons, Plasma, Melta, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Heavy Bolters and (to a lesser extend) krak grenades... Every single infantry squad can run around with an Marine killing weapon. And ad long as only one in a hundred (or even a thousand) gets lucky, CSM would technically loose a war of attrition as it is much cheaper and faster to "train" and arm 1000 Guardsmen than a CSM.


Hence why the fluff doesn't show CSMs fighting attritional battles. When they lose is when they get cornered and the guard can use that attrition against them (until their morale goes).

The issue i have with the France germany comparison is that germany was more industrialised, had a much much larger population and had amassed for a war, whilst Britain and France had essentially done the opposite. They didn't want to stumble into another ww1 so they did not take the steps necessary to be ready for war until it was too late. They thought Hitler was saner than he was, and that he was partaking in that ancient tradition of nationalistic sabre rattling. This gets forgotten every time people broach the subject, and i wish it would not be. I think a better analogue, if we're dusting off the old world wars is Germany vs Soviet union (who ground up 3/4 of the German army and airforce). They go pretty well at the start, but once the guard are able to bring their numbers the bear they never lose a battle. All battles are attritional, especially if your home base is nonexistant, or a mess of warring warlords and rearmament or recruitment is uncertain or dependant on sucsessful actions.
If this is your supply situation how many battles can you fight before you can't. Also how many troops can you lose before another warband thinks you prey?


How can the Guard stand against Chaos Space Marines? @ 2021/05/20 21:34:21


Post by: Iracundus


 OldMate wrote:

The issue i have with the France germany comparison is that germany was more industrialised, had a much much larger population and had amassed for a war, whilst Britain and France had essentially done the opposite. They didn't want to stumble into another ww1 so they did not take the steps necessary to be ready for war until it was too late. They thought Hitler was saner than he was, and that he was partaking in that ancient tradition of nationalistic sabre rattling. This gets forgotten every time people broach the subject, and i wish it would not be. I think a better analogue, if we're dusting off the old world wars is Germany vs Soviet union (who ground up 3/4 of the German army and airforce). They go pretty well at the start, but once the guard are able to bring their numbers the bear they never lose a battle. All battles are attritional, especially if your home base is nonexistant, or a mess of warring warlords and rearmament or recruitment is uncertain or dependant on sucsessful actions.


Which is why many CSM warbands are just basically doing piracy and raiding, with no real territory held for "Chaos" until recently with daemon Primarchs establishing little kingdoms for themselves and their gods after the opening of the Rift. That's why it was called the "Long War", though I personally think that's a bit of self deception for many CSM trying to convince themselves they are fighting some long guerilla warfare campaign against the Imperium. They smash and grab and do damage, but for overall little strategic military goal, unless you count enacting mystical rituals or doing things to gain the favor of the gods for the warband's champion(s) a goal.