Sure this has been debated before, but can't find any posts when searching.

I mean, I know they can take command of Imperial Navy ships and regiments (but how much? can they say "i take command of this superbig fleet or all Astra Militarum forces in this sector")

Can they go to Macragge and order the Ultramarines around? "like hey i take command of this company or even Chapter, I want you to do this and that"

Can Hector Rex or someone like him order the Custodes around?

The answer is however much people allow them to have, which is a matter of politics.

In theory, by the letter of the law, any Inquisitor, even the freshest newly minted Inquisitor, is answerable to no one except the Emperor. In theory they can commandeer the fleets of an entire Segmentum and demand the arrest of all the High Lords. In theory a single Inquisitor commands enough power to crash the Imperium or take it over completely.

In practice, anyone trying to do so is going to find they get denounced by other Inquisitors and other similarly powerful peers of the Imperium as either insane or corrupt, and then be disappeared or have a lethal accident. In practice, an Inquisitor is still going to need to "work the system" and use some political skill and finesse to get things done.

As above? Pretty much whatever they think they can get away with.

The greatest limit on their powers is the Inquisition itself. Not necessarily because of design, but because of good old fashioned human ego and hubris.

In terms of the various Imperial Forces, it’s really only Ad Mech and Marines that are autonomous enough to refuse assistance.

SoB are probably next - insofar as it’ll depend on the Inquisitor. Pious Puritan Inquisitors wouldn’t face much, if any, resistance there. Radicals? Not so much.

Best thing is to read the Eisenhorn stories as they and then the Ravenor series give you a great insight into the world of the Inquisitoin.


In general their power varies considerably and it also depends how they choose and like to operate. Some Inquisitors are more martial and will command capital ships, armies and generally take a more hard handed military angle; others take a much more stealthy approach and might only have their close retinue of staff to hand in any one encounter.


It also depends on their rank within the Inquisition; lower ranking Inquisitors who also don't play the political game enough might, on paper, have a lot of power, but could find themselves not as respected and cut short. Meanwhile higher ranking officials will be able to wield far more significant power.


Plus don't forget scale comes into this, many Inquisitors will have a "home patch" they operate within; places where they own properties, have access to banks and resources; staff, agents and in general a network of operations. Within their home territory they might wield more political power; outside of it they might have to rely on others.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

SoB are probably next - insofar as it’ll depend on the Inquisitor. Pious Puritan Inquisitors wouldn’t face much, if any, resistance there. Radicals? Not so much.

Ahh I forgot about that aspect, yes even as Inquisitors take different pathways toward their goals some are more Pious and puritan - sticking to the letter of the law and the word of the Emperor. Meanwhile others are more likely to dabble in xenos artifacts, psychic powers and even items of chaos. Whilst they have right by the Emperor himself to do as they please in his name, such Radicals can sometimes find themselves lacking in certain political allies. An Inquisitor making extensive use of Xenos services and artifacts might find they have to hide such activities even from others of their own Inquisition; or from select groups they want to curry favour with. Meanwhile a Puritan one might find allies in the Sisters of Battle, but their inflexible attitude might find themselves at odds with the reality of a galactic empire - perhaps bringing down the wrath of the Emperor upon a world that has the only crime in using Xenos technology to mitigate local environmental risks. etc...

Totto wrote:
Sure this has been debated before, but can't find any posts when searching.

I mean, I know they can take command of Imperial Navy ships and regiments (but how much? can they say "i take command of this superbig fleet or all Astra Militarum forces in this sector")

Can they go to Macragge and order the Ultramarines around? "like hey i take command of this company or even Chapter, I want you to do this and that"

Can Hector Rex or someone like him order the Custodes around?

As the others have said, the biggest limit is other Inquisitiors, as they will start asking what, exactly, get needs all these forces for?

When it comes to the space marines and custodes, the inquisition has no direct authority. The marines are ALSO answerable only to the god emperor himself, so he can't just walk up and order a chapter to follow him.

However, they wouldn't just refuse outright, but question him about what he feels needs the marines to do. And, more often than not, go do what they were asked to, because the inquisition exists for a reason and faces threats that might well need a full chapter to deal with

Oh, and I’m pretty sure Cutodes have absolute Carte Blanche to tell everyone, up to and including the High Lords “no, bugger off”.

Sisters of Silence too, possibly? Not terribly up on their background.

They can, but they need to write it down...

Space marines can't be ordered by an Inquisitor but they can be requested. Keep in mind there is political pressure that can often make chapters more co-operative.

Imperial Guard can be ordered. They can take over an army pretty much whenever they feel like. One took over the siege of Vraks half near the end of the siege.

Assassins- Same as space marines.

Nobody can order Custodes as far as I am aware. Not even the High Lords of Terra.

Inquisitors can order marines to comply if I remember correctly, however that may also bring issues for the inquisitor, especially with more independent chapters, I'm sure many inquisitors may well have disappeared in such circumstances.

I think it is much more common to request a chapters help, and well, an inquisitor requesting is going to be more likely of gaining it than a planetary governor requesting for example.

Also of note, inquisitors have full authority to investigate and sanction marine chapters also, though again, it would probably be more likely an investigation then a council of chapter masters would reside over the sanction to be actioned (unless it is full blown heresy etc obviously).

Effectively, just like real world upper echelons of politics, power and intelligence organisations, what is written down as a rule and could be followed to the letter usually involves a lot more compromise, and behind closed doors deals than it should.

Even for high level puritans they have to be careful in how they approach marines for help, especially when dealing with first founding chapters, you could very quickly be black listed as an ally by not just those, but all their successors also.

"My patience is limited, unlike my authority."- Gregor Eisenhorn.

All the power they like, basically.

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
Space marines can't be ordered by an Inquisitor but they can be requested. Keep in mind there is political pressure that can often make chapters more co-operative.

Imperial Guard can be ordered. They can take over an army pretty much whenever they feel like. One took over the siege of Vraks half near the end of the siege.

Assassins- Same as space marines.

Nobody can order Custodes as far as I am aware. Not even the High Lords of Terra.

Marines can and often are ordered to do what an Inquisitor says - whether they do so. like any powerful organisation will depend on mnay things;

What is asked
Who the Inquisitor is and his or her influence
The Status of the Chapter and their own friends or enemies in the Inquisiton
If the task is suitable
If the resources are available.
Who is being asked - if a Inquisitor turns up somethwhere and a small Astartes force is told to aid him, its highly unlikely they will refuse

Like anyone else with that level of power - a Chapter Master (Or Arch Magos, Planetary Governor, Fleet Admiral, Canonness etc ) would have to have a good reason to refuse aid - and usually why would they? If they have concerns about the Inquistors "request" then the really powerful ones may well be able to contact another Inquisitor ally who they have aided in the past - another reason NOT to refuse them without a really good reason is that they may be useful in the future.

If he or she is refused, the Inquistor often has limited immediate options.

The marines are ALSO answerable only to the god emperor himself, so he can't just walk up and order a chapter to follow him.

Thats just wrong.

There are the High Lords and of course the living Primarch as well as the Inquisition

 Mr Morden wrote:

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
Space marines can't be ordered by an Inquisitor but they can be requested. Keep in mind there is political pressure that can often make chapters more co-operative.

Imperial Guard can be ordered. They can take over an army pretty much whenever they feel like. One took over the siege of Vraks half near the end of the siege.

Assassins- Same as space marines.

Nobody can order Custodes as far as I am aware. Not even the High Lords of Terra.

Marines can and often are ordered to do what an Inquisitor says - whether they do so. like any powerful organisation will depend on mnay things;

What is asked
Who the Inquisitor is and his or her influence
The Status of the Chapter and their own friends or enemies in the Inquisiton
If the task is suitable
If the resources are available.
Who is being asked - if a Inquisitor turns up somethwhere and a small Astartes force is told to aid him, its highly unlikely they will refuse

Like anyone else with that level of power - a Chapter Master (Or Arch Magos, Planetary Governor, Fleet Admiral, Canonness etc ) would have to have a good reason to refuse aid - and usually why would they? If they have concerns about the Inquistors "request" then the really powerful ones may well be able to contact another Inquisitor ally who they have aided in the past - another reason NOT to refuse them without a really good reason is that they may be useful in the future.

If he or she is refused, the Inquistor often has limited immediate options.

The marines are ALSO answerable only to the god emperor himself, so he can't just walk up and order a chapter to follow him.

Thats just wrong.

There are the High Lords and of course the living Primarch as well as the Inquisition

and in each of thsoe examples while they have considerable influence they cannot COMMAND a space marine chapter. when the high lords want a space marine chapter to do something they REQUEST it. that applies to gulliman as well

BrianDavion wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
Space marines can't be ordered by an Inquisitor but they can be requested. Keep in mind there is political pressure that can often make chapters more co-operative.

Imperial Guard can be ordered. They can take over an army pretty much whenever they feel like. One took over the siege of Vraks half near the end of the siege.

Assassins- Same as space marines.

Nobody can order Custodes as far as I am aware. Not even the High Lords of Terra.

Marines can and often are ordered to do what an Inquisitor says - whether they do so. like any powerful organisation will depend on mnay things;

What is asked
Who the Inquisitor is and his or her influence
The Status of the Chapter and their own friends or enemies in the Inquisiton
If the task is suitable
If the resources are available.
Who is being asked - if a Inquisitor turns up somethwhere and a small Astartes force is told to aid him, its highly unlikely they will refuse

Like anyone else with that level of power - a Chapter Master (Or Arch Magos, Planetary Governor, Fleet Admiral, Canonness etc ) would have to have a good reason to refuse aid - and usually why would they? If they have concerns about the Inquistors "request" then the really powerful ones may well be able to contact another Inquisitor ally who they have aided in the past - another reason NOT to refuse them without a really good reason is that they may be useful in the future.

If he or she is refused, the Inquistor often has limited immediate options.

The marines are ALSO answerable only to the god emperor himself, so he can't just walk up and order a chapter to follow him.

Thats just wrong.

There are the High Lords and of course the living Primarch as well as the Inquisition

and in each of thsoe examples while they have considerable influence they cannot COMMAND a space marine chapter. when the high lords want a space marine chapter to do something they REQUEST it. that applies to gulliman as well

Yes they Can - happens all the time in the Lore. same as the Inquisiton - if they term it as a request - thats being polite

But the point is its still a request, the Marines can turn them down. It's basically a huge political dance. On paper they can do certain things, but the reality of the situation is that the paper is only as strong as the politics behind it and with the Emperor in limbo the powers behind rules and laws he put into place are in the hands of others.

And yes at times someone will demand something to the letter of the law and others will follow; perhaps just because they see value in the end goal and aren't looking to score political points etc....


In the end its a complicated situation that will vary. Plus don't forget just because you have authority to request aid doesn't mean someone else hasn't requested earlier that you be denied aid; or that aid be restricted to you etc.... There are also chains of command even within the Inquisition; a lower ranking Inquisitor requesting high level aid without the backing of higher level Inquisitors might well not be refused, but it might be questioned and those being requested might well contact higher level Inquisitors to confirm etc...

 Overread wrote:
But the point is its still a request, the Marines can turn them down. It's basically a huge political dance. On paper they can do certain things, but the reality of the situation is that the paper is only as strong as the politics behind it and with the Emperor in limbo the powers behind rules and laws he put into place are in the hands of others.

And yes at times someone will demand something to the letter of the law and others will follow; perhaps just because they see value in the end goal and aren't looking to score political points etc....


In the end its a complicated situation that will vary. Plus don't forget just because you have authority to request aid doesn't mean someone else hasn't requested earlier that you be denied aid; or that aid be restricted to you etc.... There are also chains of command even within the Inquisition; a lower ranking Inquisitor requesting high level aid without the backing of higher level Inquisitors might well not be refused, but it might be questioned and those being requested might well contact higher level Inquisitors to confirm etc...

Which is pretty muchy what I said in the previous post but the fact remains that Marine Chapters are subject to the High Lords, the Inquisiton and the Primarch all of whom could order them destroyed and have done so in the past.

Marine Chapters have even been ordered to suicide run into the Eye of Terror and similar as pennance.

Request or order, in the end it is much the same, just a matter of degrees of politeness. Whether or not any organization can refuse will depend on its political capital and allies.

In theory, Chapters are completely independent, arguably not even technically a part of the Imperium, and so in theory a Chapter could say no to any and all requests for aid or demands/orders by others. However if it consistently does so and lacks the powerful allies to back it up, it may find itself like the Celestial Lions and start having higher than expected casualties or supplies from the Adeptus Mechanicus might get delayed and so on. It might also end up like the Astral Claws, accused of private empire building and ultimately the target of actual armed reprisals from a variety of other Imperial factions. It's politics.

Like anyone else with that level of power - a Chapter Master (Or Arch Magos, Planetary Governor, Fleet Admiral, Canonness etc ) would have to have a good reason to refuse aid - and usually why would they? If they have concerns about the Inquistors "request" then the really powerful ones may well be able to contact another Inquisitor ally who they have aided in the past - another reason NOT to refuse them without a really good reason is that they may be useful in the future.

Wrong, they can just say "Nope" and leave it at that. In fact the Dark Angels are massively guilty of this and why the inquisition has often been on the verge of branding them as heretics.

The breaking up of legions would have been extremely stupid if instead of a space marine you just have an inquisitor able to command them. The truth is that the Astartes chapters are under no obiligation do do anything an inquisitor tells or asks them to do. While it is smart to play nice with others they do not have to and its that simple.

This Founding involved the division of the existing Loyalist Space Marine Legions into the far smaller, 1,000-man autonomous Chapters of the Space Marines as decreed by the new Codex Astartes, written by the Ultramarines' primarch, Roboute Guilliman.

BrianDavion wrote:

and in each of thsoe examples while they have considerable influence they cannot COMMAND a space marine chapter. when the high lords want a space marine chapter to do something they REQUEST it. that applies to gulliman as well

Well, the Inquisition disagrees, they think their authority is limitless, the Astartes think they can treat them as suggestions. They've had wars over this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rebel4ever85 wrote:
Wrong, they can just say "Nope" and leave it at that. In fact the Dark Angels are massively guilty of this and why the inquisition has often been on the verge of branding them as heretics.

The only reason the Dark Angels can say "Nope" is they're a powerful chapter who would exact a terrible price on anyone trying to enforce an Inquisitorial order on them.

Totto wrote:
Sure this has been debated before, but can't find any posts when searching.

I mean, I know they can take command of Imperial Navy ships and regiments (but how much? can they say "i take command of this superbig fleet or all Astra Militarum forces in this sector")

Can they go to Macragge and order the Ultramarines around? "like hey i take command of this company or even Chapter, I want you to do this and that"

Can Hector Rex or someone like him order the Custodes around?

De Jure, lots. De Jure, they can go to Maccragge and order the Ultramarines around. By the books, they have entirely unchecked and unilateral power to do everything except govern [though they can remove governing officials and appoint their own, and exercise emergency powers to some degree]

De Facto, their power extends exactly as far as they can make it. If an Inquisitor went to Fenris and told Logan Grimnar what to do, and Logan Grimnar said to shove off, it's unlikely the Inquisitor would have any recourse [which has in fact happened]. Any first founding chapter has a lot of political clout, and it would be political suicide for the Inquisitor to challenge that, especially because their peers in the Inquisition would immediately jump on them.
'

It's notable that the ability to tell the Inquisition to shove it up their ass does not extend to space marine chapters that aren't first founding, except for some of the most reknown. If you're, lets say, the Lamenters, and you refuse to carry out the Inquisition's orders, they can brand you a heretic and you will find few friends to back you up on that.

The difference?

An Inquisitor can requisition Imperial Guard units. As they can the Imperial Navy.

An Inquisitor can request the aid of other Imperial armed forces. Because those other forces are largely autonomous.

So you could have excellent relations with a given Chapter. But their resources are finite, and they’ll have their own actions in mind. If they simply don’t have the forces to spare, there’s precious little the Inquisitor can do about it.

And, in a sense, the Inquisition’s fractious nature is its own power check. Yes, you could declare exterminatus - but you’d better have good reason, because other Inquisitors will be keeping their eye on you and your actions, just as you do them. It might very well the solution in the end, but you need to be able to defend your actions. One does not squander His Assets lightly.

Consider the Kryptman Gambit. That was done with the implications considered and accepted. The mitigation is that all the time the Orks and Nids are knocking seven bells out of each other, The Imperium is bought time to better organise its forces for the inevitable fallout.

The power an inquisitor has is related to the forces at their disposal. They can conscript units, sure, but so can other imperial factions. I would say 'how big is the problem' and 'who is responsible' are other big factors. But whoever wins the fight, will dictate back to the imperium what happened (and yes, this will be highly biased in their own favour).

Rebel4ever85 wrote:

Like anyone else with that level of power - a Chapter Master (Or Arch Magos, Planetary Governor, Fleet Admiral, Canonness etc ) would have to have a good reason to refuse aid - and usually why would they? If they have concerns about the Inquistors "request" then the really powerful ones may well be able to contact another Inquisitor ally who they have aided in the past - another reason NOT to refuse them without a really good reason is that they may be useful in the future.

Wrong, they can just say "Nope" and leave it at that. In fact the Dark Angels are massively guilty of this and why the inquisition has often been on the verge of branding them as heretics.

The breaking up of legions would have been extremely stupid if instead of a space marine you just have an inquisitor able to command them. The truth is that the Astartes chapters are under no obiligation do do anything an inquisitor tells or asks them to do. While it is smart to play nice with others they do not have to and its that simple.

This Founding involved the division of the existing Loyalist Space Marine Legions into the far smaller, 1,000-man autonomous Chapters of the Space Marines as decreed by the new Codex Astartes, written by the Ultramarines' primarch, Roboute Guilliman.

Sadly you are very mistaken - A Inquisitor has the right to order Marines to aid him or her as per the actual GW lore. Now enforcing that is another story so powerful first Founding Chapters can and have said no but they have also said yes. Inquisitors have the right to do pretty much anything but have to be able to justify it to their peers.

The idea that the Marines answer to no-one is nonsense - RG is now the supreme commander of the Imperium military and orders the Chapters to do things as needed - as do the High Lords, as they have always done. Remember that a whole bunch of Chapters were Ordered to suicide run into the Eye of Terror as pennance and did so.

If the Astartes do not answer to anyone you end up with the The Tyrant of Badab which is why the Inquisiton (see a theme here?) keep an eye on the marines and how big and powerful they are getting.

The Space Wolves in particular have been acting more and more like the Tyrant - having vast non astartes military and refusing the gene-seed tithe/inspection. The Dark Angels are little better and the Ultramarines have their own mini Empire but First Founding Chapters get away with alot because of who they are and who they have allies with.

Both sides usually play nice - the Inquisitor "asks" powerful factions for help and if they don't want to the Astartes (and others) are likely to cite reasons why they can't. Obviously this depends on the request. If a Inquisitor asks for say... a Squad of Marines to do something she is hardly likely to be refused but a order to mobolise the entire Chapter is going to be met with resistance.

Thinking about it, it may be all even more grey when it comes to astartes and the inquisition.

As stated before, out of respect, I believe they tend to request aid, though can demand it - which can cause other issues.

However, depending on the manor in which an astartes chapter is called to war by an inquisitor, the inquisitor would have little to no influence in how the astartes conducted themselves in that war. Reference, the Dark Angels actions in the War of Vraks... They were requested for aid, they came in, chose their own targets, executed them and left, to the ultimate detriment of the siege armies already deployed. I do not think an inquisitor requested the DA's aid at this point, though the token is the same. A marine chapter in a war theatre can almost do as they please and leave as they please also.

That may be the more truly autonomous aspect of chapters, in the sense they can act as they please in a war zone when either requested or ordered and not much can be done about it (though, most are professionals so will do the job they're required to do so). There's plenty of nuances to this also, if there is more than one chapter, especially a senior chapter etc... Marines tend to fall into a chain of command of other marine chapters out of respect and peerage, but in the case of one chapter, bought to a war zone by an inquisitor, they most likely have carte blanche in how they decide to act in the war zone with little influence from the inquisitor unless the chapter wants to play nice that is and be the inquisitors personal elite force or listen to and agree with the inquisitors suggestions for their role, but again, they may choose to prosecute their own objectives instead.

Inquisitors theoretically have the power to command the entire Imperium as they claim only to serve (and by extension are accountable to) the Emperor Himself.
In practice, it varies and it's almost down to celebrity status. An Inquisitor such as Coteaz or Karamazov can command Guard regiments, Sororitas convents, and Navy squadrons. Space Marine chapters are usually requisitioned via honour pacts or debts incurred by said Inquisitors.
A low ranking Inquisitor will usually command a group of handpicked individuals, see the Inquisitor game for an idea of how that works.
An interaction would probably go something like this:
Inquisitor "Governor give me all your forces in the sector."
Sector Governor "Haha no, get out of here you rat."
Same Inquisitor "Captain I require your platoon."
Guard Captain "Yes sir, right away."

all command structures are made up, noone can order or command anyone else.

The consequences of not doing what you're told by someone who society has agreed to give lots of power to tends to have donwsides though.

Even the lowliest civilian can say no to an inquisitor. They'll probably get shot for it, but they can still refuse.

So the idea that inquisitors can't 'command' space marines is stupid.

A chapter master can't command space marines if their troops refuse to accept their authority.


The difference is simply the degree of consequence faced as a result of refusal. An inquistor commands marines to do something and those marines say no. The inquisitor might have to stop and think about whether executing them is a smart move if they don't have enough backing to protect themselves from the chapter's retaliation.

The imperium is built on the philosophy of the biggest stick - it's a nesting doll of biggest sticks around bigger sticks and so on. And then there's the maneuvering to convince others your stick is bigger (from the god emperor himself is often a great proxy stick).

In the context of the imperium, an inquisitor is contractually allowed to command anyone. However different organisations of different levels of power feel less compulsion to follow through than others.

Custodes vs Inquisitors though,

Am I right in thinking even the newest off the factory line Custode is beyond reproach for any demand made of them (not from their custodes superiors) by inquisitor or even the high lords?

I think one problem people keep hitting is trying to devise a linear hierarchy for the Imperium when one, by design, doesn't exist.

Individual groups have a generally linear hierarchy within themselves, but it gets more blurry between different groups of the Imperium. Hence why there's such variation and why one Inquisitor might demand and another might request and another would be refused even by the same rank of someone in another organisation.

There's a constant state of power struggles, politics, flux and general situational variation that results in a complex constant power struggle between the different parties. This is how its supposed to work, the idea being that no single group can ever gain majority power because others will pull them down or rise up above them. It's a constant state of flux to prevent a single group or person gaining majority power and taking over the Imperium. The only one who is allowed to do that is the Emperor who is, in effect, out of the picture at present.

I like to think of the Imperium as the Old West in the USA. There were laws created by the federal government and states, but a random town in the middle of no where out West was really under no obligation to enforce those laws.

Imagine an inquisitor is a US marshal tracking a group of five horse thieves across the Old West. The marshal finds out that the thieves are staying in a motel in a small town in the middle of no where. This individual marshal cannot apprehend all of the thieves at once by himself, so when he gets to town he goes to the sheriff and asks him and his deputies to assist him in the arrest. The sheriff says, "No." The marshal then orders the sheriff to aid him because the law of the United States gives him the power to commandeer local law enforcement to help him. The sheriff still says no because his brother is one of the horse thieves.

Technically, this marshal has the power to order around the sheriff, but the sheriff can still refuse because he knows that lone marshal cannot actually do anything to him to force him to follow the law. If he tried to arrest the sheriff for breaking the law the sheriff's deputies would stop that from happening. They may even kill the marshal to get him out of the way.

Now, if the same US marshal had rolled into town with 30 other marshals, and they all showed up at the sheriff's office the sheriff may be more inclined to lend aid even if his brother was one of the thieves. That isn't to say the sheriff would be obliged to do everything within his power to help. He might just feint support while secretly informing his brother the marshals are in town.

While it is true that Inquisitors answer to no one, and, by the letter of the law, can tell anyone in the Imperium what to do that doesn't mean that the people they are ordering around care about that law or hierarchy. Much of the authority in the Imperium is based on strength or power(real or perceived) rather than the letter of the law.

Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
Custodes vs Inquisitors though,

Am I right in thinking even the newest off the factory line Custode is beyond reproach for any demand made of them (not from their custodes superiors) by inquisitor or even the high lords?

If memory serves, only The Emperor may order a Custodes to do anything.

But, that does not in itself mean they won’t act on requests from others. Now I’m not all that up on my Custards lore, but I’d imagine they’d still need approval from their own chain of command. Nor can I really recall whether their Head Honcho has a seat on the High Lords, or if it’s just a really, really stupid idea not to pay heed.

What is clear (to me at least) is that the Adeptus Custodes can do pretty much as they please, without seeking consent or agreement of other parties. They’re not beholden to the High Lords as other departments are (even Astartes Chapters, who risk censure). And their involvement with Guilliman is at least by agreement - and possibly even the direct order of The Emperor himself.

One can imagine similar Inquisitorial "unstoppable force" meeting "immovable object" scenarios.

Like an Inquisitor attempting to revoke the Warrant of an ancient Rogue Trader family, with claims that the Charter was originally granted by the Emperor directly.
The Rogue Trader could claim the Inquisitor cannot undo something the Emperor did.
The Inquisitor could dispute the claim the Emperor actually directly gave the Warrant.

The Inquisitor could also appeal to the Emperor's authority by declaring "If by declaring this Warrant now null and void, I am going against Your Will, strike me down!"....then when silence and nothing happens, conclude that therefore the Emperor does not object.

One suspects a more wily Inquisitor would review the warrant of trade, and catch the Rogue Trader on some clause or other.

After all, wider ranging powers do not equate to absolute carte blanche.

I guess the greatest power of the Inquisition is the populace in the know (Rogue Traders, Planetary Governors and those of similar political standing) just don’t know what they’ll get.

The concepts of Puritan, Radical etc are largely concepts solely of concern to the Inquisition itself.

So, let’s say you’re a Planetary Governor. Things are going relatively well. You’re meeting your tithe, and keeping your planet as secure as it can be - even handling Xenos and Pirate raids quite admirably.

Yet, as the galaxy’s sense of humour is wont to do? Something comes up. Perhaps you discover Xenos artefacts (origin irrelevant here).

Being good and loyal to the Throne, you make your discovery known to The Proper Authorities. So far, so good. You’ve not done anything particularly wrong, and have taken entirely defensible steps.

Then The Inquisition arrives. Ordo Xenos, naturally.

The Inquisitor examines the find, and orders you to hand over what you’ve got so far. But you’re to continue exploring and stockpiling. They or their representative will be in touch in due course to handle the rest of the Xenos Artefacts.

Huzzah! You just survived your first visit from an Inquisitor. Good news all round, pass the Amasec by the Left Hand Side.

You continue to be diligent, following not just the letter of the order, but it’s spirit as well.

In due course, The Inquisitor’s representative pays you a visit. Pleased as punch with your absolute compliance, you proudly show them your ordered stores of Xenos artefacts.

Dealing in forbidden Xenos artefacts? Storing them in His warehouses? Heretic. Vile blasphemer. Why did you not destroy them on discovery? They are unclean. Corrupt. And now? So. Are. You. And everyone involved in this shameless activity.

There’s no defence. You should’ve known the other person was a fraud, a fake and a heretic. Asking you to hand over and dig out more Xenos artefacts. It’s the gibbet for you and yours - if you’re lucky.

The utter randomness is something that I hate about the Inquisition and I much prefer when they're portrayed as powerful but with more defined limits to that power. People can say all they want that there's no chain of command in the Imperium but there absolutely is.
Emperor > High Lords > Sector Gov > System Gov > Planetary Gov > Guard, Navy, Arbites. Astartes almost always operate outside of the chain of command and fight where they deem it necessary but will usually not command Imperial crusades. Of course, exceptions exist such as with the Astartes Praesus who guard the Eye of Terror and the Adeptus Vaelarii who guard Elara's Veil almost exclusively operate within these regions.
Sororitas tend to guard holy worlds or go on holy crusades and fall under the command of whoever leads said crusade.
With the Guard, ranks are still ranks and a Cadian captain would not command a Catachan colonel. They would only likely take command of PDF forces.
An Inquisitor often usually works the same way as they have their own ranks within the ordos. An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor would likely command a Grey Knight strike force but not a Sororitas Priory or Deathwatch Kill Team.
Inquisitors are, by and large, additions to an army rather than commanders

Planetary governors have authority over PDF, but most definitely not guard, navy or arbites.

The arbites are, in fact, often there to watch the lord-governor as much as anyone else and PDF are explicitly banned from warp-capable vessels like the navy.

All three have their own sector-level command structure in parallel to the administration.

Indeed.

The Hierarchy is labyrinthine. This is further confused by local ranks and titles, especially when we consider outside of your own sphere of influence, you won’t have much contact with anyone outside of your solar system.

Knight Worlds are also partially autonomous. Some owe fealty to Mars and the Mechanicus, others to the wider Imperium. Their forces are also inherently the nobility. So exactly who calls the shots on a collective action (say, on Armageddon) is a matter for literal debate. One Court might have more Knights, but the next might have a longer lineage. Who takes precedence?

And again, outside of the Inquisition, no other Imperial Force can dictate their strategy, deployment etc.

Some might listen to the Mechanicus as overseers. Some might listen to the Ecclesiarchy. Others might stick rigidly to their autonomy.

It’s also worth remembering and bear in mind this is all a two way street. An Imperial Governor or Guard High General type is not obliged to listen to a Chapter Master. Granted it’s usually a good idea due to their centuries of hard won wisdom - but they can still him to get stuffed if they so wish. And beyond withdrawing their forces due to the insult, there’s really nothing even a Chapter Master can do about it.

Now that is of course all a result of Guilliman’s reformations, the idea being making it as difficult as possible for another event on the scale of the Heresy happening ever again. Why the emphasis on the word scale? With anything the size of the Imperium, civil strife and outright rebellion is pretty much inevitable.

But with each different wing enjoying its own relative levels of autonomy, such things are contained as best they can be. If a Regiment goes rogue, they’re more likely to be stuck planetside, as they’ve no authority over the Navy.

This is why the Inquisition not being particularly unified can be viewed as very much a good thing. It helps it self regulate. Extremists of any stripe are monitored by their contemporaries. Everyone is watching everyone else for signs of heresy and betrayal.

Yes it absolutely impacts overall efficiency - but without it, Guilliman’s reforms would be for nought, as it would hand too much power to the Inquisiton.

 Gert wrote:
The utter randomness is something that I hate about the Inquisition and I much prefer when they're portrayed as powerful but with more defined limits to that power. People can say all they want that there's no chain of command in the Imperium but there absolutely is.
Emperor > High Lords > Sector Gov > System Gov > Planetary Gov > Guard, Navy, Arbites. Astartes almost always operate outside of the chain of command and fight where they deem it necessary but will usually not command Imperial crusades. Of course, exceptions exist such as with the Astartes Praesus who guard the Eye of Terror and the Adeptus Vaelarii who guard Elara's Veil almost exclusively operate within these regions.
Sororitas tend to guard holy worlds or go on holy crusades and fall under the command of whoever leads said crusade.
With the Guard, ranks are still ranks and a Cadian captain would not command a Catachan colonel. They would only likely take command of PDF forces.
An Inquisitor often usually works the same way as they have their own ranks within the ordos. An Ordo Malleus Inquisitor would likely command a Grey Knight strike force but not a Sororitas Priory or Deathwatch Kill Team.
Inquisitors are, by and large, additions to an army rather than commanders

This is going a little off topic, however this is in general not actually correct in terms of functionality.

There isn't even parity in the high lords of Terra with some of the roles vastly underpowered in terms of ability to influence and scope of it, you can argue that Dante as the now lord regent of the northern imperium is already more powerful than many of the high lords bar the most powerful (Administratum, Ecclesiarch, Fabricator-General of Mars, Master of the Astronomican off the top of my head). This level of power disparity despite title becomes even further distorted the more you go down the 'official' chain of command, the point that you could strongly argue that certain planetary governors of certain planets (Ryza forge world for example - though it may be more prudent to suggest the head of the mechanicum for that forge world is the most powerful person, not the governor) probably in theory have more power than some sector governors. In terms of what they can demand may not be on parr, but what they can turn down and request potentially is or even more powerful in such a circumstance.

Power is extremely fluid in the imperium, the nature of the bureaucracy that it is does not allow for formal and conditioned power by one person to be maintained and the power ebbs and flows, sometimes without the person realising it.

The Inquisition is second only to the Emperor himself in terms of legal authority. The Custodes are likewise answerable only to the Emperor himself and the only organisation within the Imperium not subject to the Inquisition's power.

Everyone else, including the Astartes, are subject to Inquisitorial authority. If a wet behind the ears Inquisitor straight out of Inquisitor school turned up at the Rock and announced he was requisitioning the Dark Angels chapter and asked them to show him all their records he would be within the bounds of his authority and the Dark Angels would be obligated to comply by the laws of the Imperium.

The difficulty here is that power is ultimately illusionary - it resides wherever other people think it resides. The Imperium is basically a feudal system of organisations each with their own competing, interests and power bases headed by people who are used to wielding power themselves and who won't be all that pleased at some random Inquisitor making demands of them because "mah authority". Think Game of Thrones levels of rivalry and interconnecting webs of loyalty and fealty.

The likelyhood of someone refusing an Inquisitors authority depends on how much they have to hide and how much power they themselves hold. If they don't like the Inquisitors demands they could try anything from creative compliance (intentionally misinterpreting orders, partial obedience, time wasting etc.), obfuscation, having them killed or just plain saying "No. What are you going to do about it?". In the above example the Dark Angels, if they are feeling merciful, could just politely say they'd love to help but their forces are scattered all over the Imperium fighting wars so the Inquisitor's demand is simply physically impossible and then bury him in pointless paperwork listing receipts for bolter rounds and invoices for fresh gothic robes. If they aren't in a good mood that day they can just show him to the nearest airlock and claim his ship got lost in the warp.

And if the Inquisitor doesn't like it... what exactly is he going to do? His fellow Inquisitors would likely have kittens when they found out what he tried to pull and send him to some backwater where he couldn't do any more harm. And it isn't like they could stop the Dark Angels supply of munitions or something - major chapters have their own worlds and mobile fleets and probably manufacture everything they need for precisely this reason. Taking the ultimate sanction and declaring the chapter excommunicate traitoris would involve starting a major civil war and ultimately the only military force capable of bringing an astartes chapter to heel is other astartes chapters - all of whom would want an extremely compelling reason to make war on their own battle brothers.

So whilst an Inquisitor theoretically has the authority on paper to order around Space Marines in practice that power only exists in reality to the extent that the Inquisitor can get others to enforce their authority. The Astartes know this. Which is why any sensible Inquisitor knows it is better to make requests unless they have the backing and balls to do something about it if they get told to feth off.

Also lets not forget the Navigators Guild. They hold considerable influence and power in that they are essential for ships to travel through the dark of space. Whilst they seem to be a little more passive than some other groups, I'm sure that within their noble houses there are still power struggles and even an Inquisitor requires their services and good will to navigate the black of space.

Whilst they might not refuse the Inquisition, they might not give you their best or might not reveal some faster pathways through space if you happen to get on their wrong side.


It's another example of a group who, on paper and legally, might only have limited power, but through the service they provide they maintain a high level of real influence and power.

 Overread wrote:
Also lets not forget the Navigators Guild. They hold considerable influence and power in that they are essential for ships to travel through the dark of space. Whilst they seem to be a little more passive than some other groups, I'm sure that within their noble houses there are still power struggles and even an Inquisitor requires their services and good will to navigate the black of space.

Whilst they might not refuse the Inquisition, they might not give you their best or might not reveal some faster pathways through space if you happen to get on their wrong side.


It's another example of a group who, on paper and legally, might only have limited power, but through the service they provide they maintain a high level of real influence and power.

That's just the effect of 40K works more focusing more on clearly martial organizations. Commerce related ones get only passing mention in many GW works, and Navigator focused pieces are in the minority.
That said though, the sheer amount of interstellar shipping necessary to keep the Imperium functioning means most of the run of the mill shipping out there is probably going to be Chartist shipping. That is, bulk shipping going through the same routes and relying on charts and calculated jumps rather than having a Navigator.

Anyway, the kind of passive resistance or slow walking of assistance is the same method other non-combat organizations might react to outrageous Inquisitor demands. That is why Inquisitors have individuals in their retinue with the skills or contacts to expedite such mundane stuff as greasing the bureaucracy.

Still need a Navigator for Warp Travel, whether established route or not.

And that means dealing with the Guild, who wield absolute power in that one area.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still need a Navigator for Warp Travel, whether established route or not.

And that means dealing with the Guild, who wield absolute power in that one area.

Actually, you don't. You need a Navigator if you want to travel far and fast or off established charts. That is often the case when it comes to fiction protagonists. Chartist captains are those captains that ply well worn routes based on navigation charts and calculated jumps. That is how humanity did it before Navigators. It's possible but slower than Navigator assisted warp travel. For bulk freighters going to the same combination of systems for generations on end along stable routes, you don't need a Navigator.

Calculated jumps are shorter distance and they have to come out back to realspace, check their position, and then jump again. It's analogous to classical ships of antiquity hugging coastlines and stopping each night on land, as opposed to Age of Exploration ships going out into the deep open ocean. I am not making this up. Check the Rogue Trader RPG or BFG:

It is possible for a ship to make short warp jumps of about four to five light-years with a certain degree of accuracy. However, over longer distances it is necessary to steer through the warp itself.

p.85, BFG rulebook

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Still need a Navigator for Warp Travel, whether established route or not.

And that means dealing with the Guild, who wield absolute power in that one area.

Or you're left dealing with an unsanctioned one! Which means risking dabbling in those more at risk or even already, corrupted by the powers of Chaos.

Iracundus wrote:

Calculated jumps are shorter distance and they have to come out back to realspace, check their position, and then jump again. It's analogous to classical ships of antiquity hugging coastlines and stopping each night on land, as opposed to Age of Exploration ships going out into the deep open ocean. I am not making this up. Check the Rogue Trader RPG or BFG:

Unless it has been changed that is also how the Tau navigate.

Possible is not the same as safe or advisable.

A Navigator can see the tides of the warp, and guide via the Astranomicon.

Without that, you are at exceptionally high risk of things going hideously wrong. You’ve no failsafe, because you’ve no way of knowing if something is going wrong until it’s gone wrong (such as, in the most fortunate case translating back into the wrong area of Realspace. Even then, you’re probably buggered as your charts won’t necessarily let you re-plot your course, as you could end up anywhere, any when).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Possible is not the same as safe or advisable.

A Navigator can see the tides of the warp, and guide via the Astranomicon.

Without that, you are at exceptionally high risk of things going hideously wrong. You’ve no failsafe, because you’ve no way of knowing if something is going wrong until it’s gone wrong (such as, in the most fortunate case translating back into the wrong area of Realspace. Even then, you’re probably buggered as your charts won’t necessarily let you re-plot your course, as you could end up anywhere, any when).

As my BFG quote shows, GW itself has said that short warp jumps are reasonably accurate and reliable. Go check Lexicanum on the Charist Captains. There is a huge amount of shipping that relies on this kind of travel, maybe even the majority of run of the mill short range shipping. The warp cannot be as dangerous as it is sometimes portrayed to be, because so many worlds in the Imperium are utterly dependent on imports of basic supplies to survive and yet they have survived for hundreds or thousands of years. Therefore shipping has to be at least somewhat safe and reliable enough to maintain these regular trade routes otherwise these worlds would have died out long ago.

GW just doesn't focus too much on this kind of mundane space trucker shipping (except when it goes wrong)

 Flinty wrote:
They can, but they need to write it down...

I can think of some hand gestures that might be useful ...

There's the odd bits of flavour text about Inquisitors having to tiptoe carefully around Space Marine Chapters, or in one instance, a Knight House. Usually when they make the mistake of trying to exert their authority when surrounded by the people they're trying to intimidate, with no backup.

The Space Wolves, in particular have told the entire Inquisition - and the Grey Knights along with them - to get lost after disagreeing with the Administratrum's handling of the aftermath of the first war for Armageddon. Luckily, they woke up Bjorn, who told everyone to pack it in and stop making so much noise. Even an Inquisitor is going to stop and listen to someone who met the Emperor in person.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
They can, but they need to write it down...

I can think of some hand gestures that might be useful ...

There's the odd bits of flavour text about Inquisitors having to tiptoe carefully around Space Marine Chapters, or in one instance, a Knight House. Usually when they make the mistake of trying to exert their authority when surrounded by the people they're trying to intimidate, with no backup.

The Space Wolves, in particular have told the entire Inquisition - and the Grey Knights along with them - to get lost after disagreeing with the Administratrum's handling of the aftermath of the first war for Armageddon. Luckily, they woke up Bjorn, who told everyone to pack it in and stop making so much noise. Even an Inquisitor is going to stop and listen to someone who met the Emperor in person.

The Space Wolves are simply made of Plot Armour - every edition gets more embaressing to read.

Considering that there are not a lot of old, ultra powerful Inquisitors, it might be inferred that a lot of young Inquisitors get killed.

I am fairly certain that some young overly ambitious Inquisitors get killed by attempting to boss around Generals, Admirals, Chapter Masters, Canoness's, etc.

I am sure that there is some degree of fratricide as well. A lot of the Peers of the Imperium would already have arrangements made for the use of each others resources. A conclave of Inquisitors would already have things in place for most of the big players in "their area."

Some rando Inquisitor from the East Edge of nowhere showing up expecting to boss around the Rogue Traders in the West Side is probably going to get disappeared when they get spaced, or the RT calls on the Inquisitors they know and ask "who is this dude? You didn't say you were going to borrow my ship."

Those Inquisitors might be like..."yeah, we got this. Drop him off over here" or if they are on the far Radical or far Puritan side of things, they might just be like "I don't care what you do."

Also, there is a lot of personal loyalty issues that have to be taken into account, Inquisitors might have a lot of power, but there are going to be some loyal retainers, family members, battle brothers, etc that are not going to let this rando "Inquisitor" show up and take charge of things.

-STS

Also worth remembering:

That an Inquisitor is very unlikely to be "young" - they may spend decades or even centuries learning their trade from their Inquisitor master. Many who are bold and foolish will perish in this time.

Inquisitors are rare.

Yeah, a very important distinction to make in the 40k world for people of certain power is looking young, and actually being young.

Rejuv treatments are powerful.

There’s a few limitations officially:

*Astartes chapter are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. Though they are honour bound to aid an inquisitor. I think they are subjects to inquisitorial scrutiny though that is a debatable topic.

*Rouge traders are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. This is because the rouge trader charter specifically states that Inquisitors don’t have power over them. It’s a bit arbitrary though because there’s nothing that has the legal power to punish an inquisitor that would violate this and force rouge traders to work for them/be subject to scrutiny.

*Adeptus Mechanicus is a bit of a special case. Not sure if they are under Inquisitorial jurisdiction or not. Usually they take care of their own heretics with their own agents. Don’t think the Inquisition has power over them but I could be wrong.

*No idea about the knight houses. As far as I’m aware they are under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction.

*Custodes are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. This is because their order comes directly from the Emperor.

*The high lords of terra are under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction.

Finally it should be noted that nothing actually has legal power over an inquisitor. So should an inquisitor step over its (very few) boundaries nothing can in theory punish them for it. Save another inquisitor with a good case. In theory is the operative word though since we’re talking about organizations with strong military assets.

 Nerak wrote:


*Rouge traders are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. This is because the rouge trader charter specifically states that Inquisitors don’t have power over them. It’s a bit arbitrary though because there’s nothing that has the legal power to punish an inquisitor that would violate this and force rouge traders to work for them/be subject to scrutiny.

Debatable. Not because you're wrong in all cases but because 'rogue trader' is such a variable term. It depends on the terms of the Rogue Trader's warrant.

Most would be subject to Inquisitorial authority - at least within imperial space since "the authority of their warrant begins where the Imperium ends" a common quote and they're essentially a private citizen on an Imperial world. Since they're issues by a sector governor whose subject to Inquisitorial jurisdiction themself, so are the warrants they issue.

At the extreme other end, a VERY few others were hand-issued by the Emperor (e.g. the one in the the Calpurnia novel Legacy), and an Inquisitor explicitly says he doesn't have a right to interfere as a result.

 Nerak wrote:
There’s a few limitations officially:

*Astartes chapter are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. Though they are honour bound to aid an inquisitor. I think they are subjects to inquisitorial scrutiny though that is a debatable topic.

*Rouge traders are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. This is because the rouge trader charter specifically states that Inquisitors don’t have power over them. It’s a bit arbitrary though because there’s nothing that has the legal power to punish an inquisitor that would violate this and force rouge traders to work for them/be subject to scrutiny.

*Adeptus Mechanicus is a bit of a special case. Not sure if they are under Inquisitorial jurisdiction or not. Usually they take care of their own heretics with their own agents. Don’t think the Inquisition has power over them but I could be wrong.

*No idea about the knight houses. As far as I’m aware they are under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction.

*Custodes are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. This is because their order comes directly from the Emperor.

*The high lords of terra are under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction.

Finally it should be noted that nothing actually has legal power over an inquisitor. So should an inquisitor step over its (very few) boundaries nothing can in theory punish them for it. Save another inquisitor with a good case. In theory is the operative word though since we’re talking about organizations with strong military assets.

Nope.

All those you list above apart for the Custodes are under the authority of the Inqusiiton - including (and given the danger they pose and their history of heresy most especially) the Astartes.

The only grey area is what happens if they refuse a command - be it described as such or is formulated as "request" - both sides know this and most of the time will play nice.

locarno24 wrote:

 Nerak wrote:


*Rouge traders are not under direct inquisitorial jurisdiction. This is because the rouge trader charter specifically states that Inquisitors don’t have power over them. It’s a bit arbitrary though because there’s nothing that has the legal power to punish an inquisitor that would violate this and force rouge traders to work for them/be subject to scrutiny.

Debatable. Not because you're wrong in all cases but because 'rogue trader' is such a variable term. It depends on the terms of the Rogue Trader's warrant.

Most would be subject to Inquisitorial authority - at least within imperial space since "the authority of their warrant begins where the Imperium ends" a common quote and they're essentially a private citizen on an Imperial world. Since they're issues by a sector governor whose subject to Inquisitorial jurisdiction themself, so are the warrants they issue.

At the extreme other end, a VERY few others were hand-issued by the Emperor (e.g. the one in the the Calpurnia novel Legacy), and an Inquisitor explicitly says he doesn't have a right to interfere as a result.

Yup.

Rogue Traders are very well covered in the aptly named Rogue Trader RPG which FFG used to do.

If memory serves, you bought your Warrant of Trade as part of character creation. The more you spend, the older the warrant (though this might be randomised? HBMC might be able to elucidate better).

Certainly my character had one which had been signed by The Emperor and The Fabricator General of Mars. Needless to say it was inherited, being a hereditary Warrant.

With both those signatures, I could be a complete arse to pretty much anyone I wanted. Even an Inquisitor was limited in what they could do me for. Trading with Xenos? Yeah, Emperor said that was cool. Mucking about with archaeotech? Yeah I’m allowed to that too.

Trick for me was not to push my luck. Long as I could prove my actions were reasonable and not reckless, I could do more or less as I pleased.

 Grimtuff wrote:
"My patience is limited, unlike my authority."- Gregor Eisenhorn.

Such a badass thing to say. Love Eisenhorn.

With both those signatures, I could be a complete arse to pretty much anyone I wanted. Even an Inquisitor was limited in what they could do me for. Trading with Xenos? Yeah, Emperor said that was cool. Mucking about with archaeotech? Yeah I’m allowed to that too.

Trick for me was not to push my luck. Long as I could prove my actions were reasonable and not reckless, I could do more or less as I pleased.

Trading with Xenos is stock and trade for a RT - although there are still proscribed Xenos species that even they may not trade with - as you say - you don't push your luck. Dabling with heretical artefacts or their like can still mean their downfall.

Antogonising an Inquisitor without a very good reason is very stupid. Plenty of RTs have been purged by the Inquisition - often aided by the RT rivals and they will have plenty of the latter inside and beyond their own family.

The same RT rpg also notes that RT expeditions are sometimes accompanied by Imperial forces (Including Marines or Sisters) who are "nominally" under the control of the RT but are mainly there to keep an eye of her or him. Inquisitors are known to travel with them to keep an eye on them on occassion.

Like everything in the WH40K lore, it depends on the story being told.

I need to re-read "Imperator: Wrath of the Omnissiah" -

beast_gts wrote:
I need to re-read "Imperator: Wrath of the Omnissiah" -

Spoiler:

IIRC an Inquisitor sneaks aboard an Imperator class titan, gets told to sod off by everyone he tries to deal with (except a low-level menial), and when they finally make it to the bridge they're executed by the command staff (but at least one of them was a Traitor).

I really hope the story reads better than that synopsis.

 Mr Morden wrote:
I really hope the story reads better than that synopsis.

It's an OK book - not amazing but OK. The Inquisitor is basically a sub-plot. It got a load of bad press / reviews at release because one of the AdMech characters uses gender-neutral pronouns.

Black Library wrote:Holy warbringer of the Legio Metalica, the Imperator Titan Casus Belli has routed armies and levelled cities over ten thousand years of service in the name of the Machine God. As war engulfs the Dark Imperium this mechanical god of battle arrives to destroy the renegade armies and tech-priests of Nicomedua. At the head of a battlegroup of Titans, Imperial Knights and skitarii, Casus Belli must defeat tainted war engines, Traitor Legionnares and armies of cultists. While apocalyptic battles rage across the planet, a no less deadly battle unfolds within the Titan itself, as Magos Exasus, leader of the Casus Belli’s Tech-guard, must find and defeat the enemy within before their insidious plans come to fruition.

Written by Gav Thorpe

beast_gts wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
I really hope the story reads better than that synopsis.

It's an OK book - not amazing but OK. The Inquisitor is basically a sub-plot. It got a load of bad press / reviews at release because one of the AdMech characters uses gender-neutral pronouns.

Black Library wrote:Holy warbringer of the Legio Metalica, the Imperator Titan Casus Belli has routed armies and levelled cities over ten thousand years of service in the name of the Machine God. As war engulfs the Dark Imperium this mechanical god of battle arrives to destroy the renegade armies and tech-priests of Nicomedua. At the head of a battlegroup of Titans, Imperial Knights and skitarii, Casus Belli must defeat tainted war engines, Traitor Legionnares and armies of cultists. While apocalyptic battles rage across the planet, a no less deadly battle unfolds within the Titan itself, as Magos Exasus, leader of the Casus Belli’s Tech-guard, must find and defeat the enemy within before their insidious plans come to fruition.

Written by Gav Thorpe

The whole gender neutral thing is about how messed up the ad mech are and how the character didn’t really view themselves as a biological being anymore. They had transcended the organic and didn’t see their gender as a factor. It wasn’t some woke thing, it was an example for steel over flesh. The books pretty good, some dodgy bits but pretty good, not titanicus good but ok.

 Mr Morden wrote:

With both those signatures, I could be a complete arse to pretty much anyone I wanted. Even an Inquisitor was limited in what they could do me for. Trading with Xenos? Yeah, Emperor said that was cool. Mucking about with archaeotech? Yeah I’m allowed to that too.

Trick for me was not to push my luck. Long as I could prove my actions were reasonable and not reckless, I could do more or less as I pleased.

Trading with Xenos is stock and trade for a RT - although there are still proscribed Xenos species that even they may not trade with - as you say - you don't push your luck. Dabling with heretical artefacts or their like can still mean their downfall.

Antogonising an Inquisitor without a very good reason is very stupid. Plenty of RTs have been purged by the Inquisition - often aided by the RT rivals and they will have plenty of the latter inside and beyond their own family.

The same RT rpg also notes that RT expeditions are sometimes accompanied by Imperial forces (Including Marines or Sisters) who are "nominally" under the control of the RT but are mainly there to keep an eye of her or him. Inquisitors are known to travel with them to keep an eye on them on occassion.

It’s a very liberating character to play. My fleet wound up with a conclave of Sisters, complete with drop Monastery (which was put to good use when we stumbled across a non-Imperial human populated system). Also found and rescued the last survivor of a Deathwatch Kill Team. Finally we had a pretty substantial Ad-Mech contingent.

Only time I pressed my luck? Wound up having to jump off a cliff to avoid Genestealers. Landed more or less OK, my pre-Imperium power armour seeing to that. The aforementioned Deathwatch Marine landing on top of me, yeah didn’t survive that!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overall, I’d say the loose nature of 40k’s canon plays well for an RPG setting, especially when it comes to uncertain equivalence between different departments.

It puts a lot of it in the player’s hands, especially for a Rogue Trader - and presents a hopefully welcome challenge to the GM.

In my little fleet for instance? I had precedence over the Ad-Mech, but would only rarely truly leverage it when absolutely necessary. When it came to their business (repairs, research etc) my RT knew better than to interfere. I’d typically only pull strings when I was Up To Something, and needed the right support.

I also had a fair amount of archeotech with which to bait them. Not so much dangled as a carrot, more as an up promised reward/thank you. Sometimes also flipped it, leveraging access to what I had to make requests whilst they were tinkering away.

Main trick was to stop them discovering my highly unsanctioned xeno-tech bonce enhancer I got during the pre-campaign intro...... Thankfully it seriously boosted my intelligence, letting me run rings around them in the dice rolling stakes!

God I want to play Rogue Trader again!

Doesn't an inquisitor have the ability to outright declare someone a heretic and execute them? This is done several times to high ranking people, and space marines. entire companies if my memory serves. They basically carry the legal authority to do anything that betters the standing of the Emperor's might/will. If they have to declare an entire company of Astartes Heretics, they have that ability. Whether those Astartes turn him into paste in .45 miliseconds, is entirely up to them. But they do have that ability.

It's like saying did Grimaldus have the authority to take over the forces of Armegeddon and the Titans therein? yes and no. Doctrinally, no. He wasn't even close to the highest ranking person there. But he did and the forces went along with it.

They do, but they’ll need evidence, the level of which I suspect would vary depending on the person accused.

Astartes? Whoa there, buster. You better have strong evidence to back it up. Especially if you’re gunning for the entire Chapter. Not only are they a rare resource within the Imperium, but they carry a lot of political clout.

Planetary Governor? You’d better be sure. Yes, another can be parachuted in, or selected from the remaining nobility. But as Necromunda shows, planetary governance is a web of pacts and alliances. Tampering with that can affect whole sectors, depending on the planet. Now, if you can replace Governor Smith with someone else from his or her family? Not so bad, as such a replacement was always on the cards, one way or the other.

Imperial Guard? How deep does it go? Is it just that regiment? Their campaign? Their home world?

And remember, the rest of the Inquisition is watching you right back...

Oh come on, the Inquisition has condemned entire worlds to the fire on the hint of cult activity or GSC infestation.

One inquisitor making claims of heresy would be handled the same way the Custodes handled that one rogue primaris chapter. Very quickly, brutally, and efficiently. After it was over, evidence and proof would be subject to review. Not before. How many times have kill teams been sent for Eisenhorn, with no proof just an upset and vengeful Inquisitor. There was that Comic where the inquisitor traveling with the Grey knights leveled the claim of heresy against the entire company she was investigating. Then they blew her head off. It's not uncommon for them to be wrong, but they still have that ability. Thats all I am saying.

Hint is still evidence.

Exterminatus remains a relatively rare sanction, because one does not squander The Emperor’s worlds.

Have you read any of the background at all?

I will admit, it's use is more of a plot device than actual statement of fact in the lore. There are extremely few standout moments where exterminatus was ordered. For instance the Kryptman doctrine speaks of entire systems being bombed to stop the Tyranids.

Point being, yes, the lore almost never speaks about it. But not mentioning something explicitly kept silent at the highest levels doesn't mean it never happens. Also, the authority to create such an event without the black ships seems to be ...vague. The Ad-mech guy who steered an orbiting moon into his own planet to wipe out an invading force, or Creed overloading a Plasma drive that literally blew up the planet...I'd say those were both Exterminatus level events that did not require the high lords accent.

You don’t need the High Lords agreement to declare Exterminatus.

Generally, that option lies only with Chapter Masters and Inquisitors. Nor are Black Ships required.

But regardless of who declares and enacts it? They need to show it was proportionate. That whatever was going on could not be contained by any other method.

Kryptman? Well, the Nids are the sort of foe that you want to deny resources to as much as possible. Generally, the trick is to let the planet fall, then knack whilst the Fleet gathers to feed. This in theory delivers a triple whammy to the Hive Fleet. Depletion of resources in taking the planet, replenishment denied, and the potential to take out Hive Ships when destroying the planet.

Do that enough times, and a Hive Fleet could end up in serious trouble, requiring an ever bigger victory to get back on an even keel.

Of course, Kryptman was then declared a traitor, despite the impressive impact on Hive Fleet Leviathan. So again we see the need to be able to justify your actions, even as an Inquisitor.

Exterminatis is basically the Imperium admitting defeat and in general it doesn't like doing that. Plus whilst the Imperium CAN do something it doesn't mean that it always WILL.

Just like a commissar can shoot anyone at any moment they are generally not just going to walk into the platoon and let rip with the bolter and shoot everyone.

There's a balance between can and will and the Imperium can and does do horrible things, but not everything is horror at every moment and there is some sanity mixed into the madness.

Kryptman's campaign against Leviathan is a prime example of where even a sound tactic was viewed in bad light both during and after the fact. Yes it worked, but it also lost the Imperium many worlds that other strategists might argue could have been saved. Each of those worlds will take vast resources to bring back into the fold (if ever) and make productive once more and that will also take generations to achieve. It's a huge loss of resources at the local and major scale for the Imperium and its clearly not a tactic that they can encourage either. Otherwise the Imperium will end up literally blowing itself up to win.

In Ian Watson's Inquisitor novel the lead character orders the exterminatus of a world but later rescinds the order. Out of pure spite his astropath never sends the order to stand down resulting in an entire world being murdered due to clerical error. Pretty grim-dark.

I think we are again coming up against the issue of theoretical authority and actual reality/consequences. An Inquisitor has the authority to order exterminatus and I don't believe there are any formal checks and balances for this. But I'd guess if it was a major forge world then the marine chapter tasked with the request might want a good reason why and might well seek confirmation from higher authorities before going ahead. If it is just a backwater on the eastern fringe then they might do it as part of a drive by to somewhere more important and the higher authorities might not even notice for a few hundred years until they turn up to ask why the tithe isn't being paid, because grim-dark.

It also shows a potential way to halt the Hive Fleets. It just needs a level of organisation to properly capitalise.

The cordon need only be as big as is absolutely necessary. As I explained above, each is a triple hit to the Hive Fleet in question. Losses to take the planet, denied its bounty, at least some Hive Ship organisms killed into the bargain.

What is missing however is a space borne counter for when it’s travelling to the next planet in the chain. It doesn’t have to be a major strike, but it does need to have enough range and firepower to keep chipping away.

The more one-sided you can make those engagements, the more you force the Hive Fleet to expend its resources. The more you do it, the more those resources dwindle.

One hell of a lot easier said than done, even with sufficient organisation of course. But the theory is sound.

Had he been able to get that backing, the outcome could’ve been different. After all, you’re talking about sacrificing a number of planets to save a larger number of others.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guess the best answer to OP’s question can be summed up as “unlimited, but not unfettered”?

 Overread wrote:

Kryptman's campaign against Leviathan is a prime example of where even a sound tactic was viewed in bad light both during and after the fact. Yes it worked, but it also lost the Imperium many worlds that other strategists might argue could have been saved. Each of those worlds will take vast resources to bring back into the fold (if ever) and make productive once more and that will also take generations to achieve. It's a huge loss of resources at the local and major scale for the Imperium and its clearly not a tactic that they can encourage either. Otherwise the Imperium will end up literally blowing itself up to win.

There is also a potential risk. If the IoM tried and failed to defend those worlds, then those resources wouldn't only be lost, but would be assimilated by the Tyranids and used against the Imperium.

Kryptman's cordon is playing it safe, sacrificing resources to avoid a potentially far worse outcome.

The problem with Tyranids is what next. They've already started building a planet sized something that projects a vast blanket of the Shadow in the Warp. Perhaps some kind of vast anti-chaos counterweapon to deal with Chaos.

If the Imperium starts burning world after world to create a firebreak I'm sure Tyranids will adapt. Perhaps their fleets will strike deep into the heart of Imperial space; fasting just to hit core worlds so far behind the firebreak that even if the Tyranid force loses, the Imperium loses vast amounts of moral and determination to maintain a firebreak.

All of it.

The Inquisition is the integrity of the empire and the reach of an inquisitor is as broad.

Let's not forget that one inquisitor that executers anyone he finds innocent for the crime of wasting his time by not avoiding the suspicion of guilt.

 Overread wrote:
The problem with Tyranids is what next. They've already started building a planet sized something that projects a vast blanket of the Shadow in the Warp. Perhaps some kind of vast anti-chaos counterweapon to deal with Chaos.

If the Imperium starts burning world after world to create a firebreak I'm sure Tyranids will adapt. Perhaps their fleets will strike deep into the heart of Imperial space; fasting just to hit core worlds so far behind the firebreak that even if the Tyranid force loses, the Imperium loses vast amounts of moral and determination to maintain a firebreak.

And you are right, such strategy is a losing one. Such exterminatus cordons are better for the situations in which the IoM doesn't have the forces at hand to stop a Hive Fleet, which BTW was the original issue that led to the burning of the Kryptman's cordon.

The few Imperial worlds that refused to evacuate and tried to hold their ground against Leviathan like Shadowbrink or, far more important considering its role as a major Forge World, Gryphonne IV were casually overwhelmed.

The whole reason why Kryptman did his Exterminatus cordon (and diversion of Leviathan to the Orks) was precisely because the Imperium could not match the Tyranids in attrition. The Imperium could not rely on its sheer numbers to turn the tide like it has done before for so many other threats.

All the uproar over the lost worlds shows that for all its propaganda about not caring or counting the cost, the Imperium still does.

Kryptmans plot was short term to give them breathign space to mobalise forces and also to divert the Nids to fights the Orks - of course he also knew that the winner would be even stronger.

Kryptman also had to go on the run for a bit due to this policy.

In Dante it literally says that in hindsight Kyptman had failed, the Hive fleet made it through and completely undeterred. Kryptman's Cordon was a failed attempt. It was only decreased the total number of defendable worlds to slow down the hive fleet. In the end the Fleet just passed them, where if they hadn't been bombed, the fleets would have been delayed in the devouring of them.

Do you have the citation for that?

I just said, the book dante. Chapter 11, just re-read it. And I was wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was wrong, He did not says Kyptman failed, but that the strategy of Kryptman would have failed on the planet cyptis. My apologies.

The limits on the power of an Inquisitor is ultimately political. They all have the full power of the Emperor, but they must have the political capital necessary to do anything they cannot personally do. That is only gained over time and success. The more effective an Inquistor is in tracking down and destroying the enemies of the Imperium, the more prestige he gains. The more prestige he gains, the more resources he can draw on and the more compliance to his order he gains.

For those of you saying that Inquisitors all have legal authority over the Astartes, that's very much a matter of contention. They claim they do. Many Astartes chapters claim they do not. At various times, one or the other is right.

I think the issue is that it's a complex distinction
But my understanding was that investigations of Astartes does fall within the remit of the inquisition.
However Astartes are outwith the scope of the inquisition in terms of being a requestionable asset that can be commanded.

As far as I am aware the only 2 institutions specifically out with the purview of the inquisition is the Custodes and Sisters of Silence due to them being beholden to non other than the Emperor himself, and carrying his authority in execution of their responsibilities to him (Big E).

Gman is an interesting one as it probably depends on which definition of imperial regent your using as GW have not been consistent in how they have defined the powers it confers, though being able to legally kill high lords of terra seems like a good indication that the limitations on his power is minimal.

Statesman qualities aside, Guilliman is probably the most clued up person in the Imperium, because he’s intimately familiar with Things Going Horribly Wrong.

He almost certainly could kill whomever he chooses. He is after all a Primarch, and Regent of Terra. That kinda comes with unparalleled influence and clout.

Trouble is, now is categorically not the time to go rocking the boat. Hence why he’s done nothing about the Imperial Cult. Given time he might try to dismantle it, he might not. Because it’s all a balancing game.

His every action ultimately risks some form of schism with the Imperium. Just because (much like the Inquisition) his authority is near absolute, he still can’t just throw his weight around Willy Nilly.

That is where his undisputed statesmanship comes into play. You don’t need to necessarily take heed of advice, requests, demands or comments etc. But you at least need to pretend to listen.

You don’t order people about - you persuade them. You tell them why you’re doing X and not the Y they’d prefer.

Suffice to say his personal backing is a significant hurdle to the Adeptus Mechanicus doing anything at all about Cawl, who in the eyes of more than a few is a Heretek, and indeed Heretic for upgrading Astartes biology. Yet, he can’t simply put Cawl in charge of the Adeptus Mechanicus - because that’s not how the Imperium works, or has ever worked.

The same likely extends to the High Lords. Yes, he probably could forcibly remove any or all of them from power - but doesn’t get to decide who replaces them.

He’s kinda like Queen Elizabeth of Great Britain. Lots of power, but cannot exercise it directly. For instance, the U.K. Government has to ask to borrow her army - but she can’t actually refuse. She’s also completely immune from Prosecution, as criminal cases are The Crown versus X - and she cannot try herself.

Besides, right now, there are far, far more pressing matters to take in hand, such as giving Chaos a good shoeing.

If any of the High Lords step out of line? That’s a completely different story of course. But he still can’t just act without thought or consultation.

The other thing to balance is that whilst Guilliman has supreme power, he's also mortal. The powers he's going up against, if they took dislike to his direction, could have him killed.

He could, on paper, issue an end to the religious order of the Imperium. In reality he'd likely get branded a traitor, excommunicated and be hunted down. Even his supreme position is not beyond contest. With the Imperium as it is now even the Emperor himself would likely have issues trying to do the same. It would easily shatter the Imperium into a new Civil war. Just because your saviour and god has returned doesn't mean he's the right saviour and god you were expecting/promised/hoping for/wanting to control.


Inquisitors are much the same and I suspect many times a solution is born of the need to balance various powerful parties against each other; or manipulate or order one to attack another.

 Overread wrote:
The other thing to balance is that whilst Guilliman has supreme power, he's also mortal. The powers he's going up against, if they took dislike to his direction, could have him killed.

He could, on paper, issue an end to the religious order of the Imperium. In reality he'd likely get branded a traitor, excommunicated and be hunted down. Even his supreme position is not beyond contest. With the Imperium as it is now even the Emperor himself would likely have issues trying to do the same. It would easily shatter the Imperium into a new Civil war. Just because your saviour and god has returned doesn't mean he's the right saviour and god you were expecting/promised/hoping for/wanting to control.


Inquisitors are much the same and I suspect many times a solution is born of the need to balance various powerful parties against each other; or manipulate or order one to attack another.

The irony that the Ecclesearcy are a bunch of religious not jobs practicing the tennents of books written by one of the founding traiter primarchs though certainly has to seen as heretical in and of itself there by rendering anyone involved in such an endevour touched by heresy.

The fact that the inquisition have systemically failed to address this or that they utterly failednto address the conspiracies and coup attempts realy does highlight that the inquisition for it paper power and clear job description isnt very good at it's own job.

But on the topic of the eclesiarcy I do think that going forward in the story line GW is going to be forced to address the issue.
The ecclesiarcy have made enimies of the Mechnicus, Sisters of Silence, Imperial Regent & the Custodes.

Yeah Gman isn't going to heap more problems on his already significant number of urgent issues to deal with.

Also the Space Wolves, and most of the Astartes except the Black Templars, who might as well be members of the Cult anyway.

Hecaton wrote:
For those of you saying that Inquisitors all have legal authority over the Astartes, that's very much a matter of contention. They claim they do. Many Astartes chapters claim they do not. At various times, one or the other is right.

Many Chapters? Apart from the Wolves who are actually made of plot armour - which Chapters have openly stated that they are not subject to the Inquisiton and not suffered the consequences.

However Astartes are outwith the scope of the inquisition in terms of being a requestionable asset that can be commanded.

They do this quite often in the lore so thats wrong.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
For those of you saying that Inquisitors all have legal authority over the Astartes, that's very much a matter of contention. They claim they do. Many Astartes chapters claim they do not. At various times, one or the other is right.

Many Chapters? Apart from the Wolves who are actually made of plot armour - which Chapters have openly stated that they are not subject to the Inquisiton and not suffered the consequences.

However Astartes are outwith the scope of the inquisition in terms of being a requestionable asset that can be commanded.

They do this quite often in the lore so thats wrong.

My bad on the spelling error is supposed to be requesitionable
I.E. here is my Iquisitional seal do as I say now, I am in charge.

Almost all the lore is requesting assistance or highlighting a situation that needs addressing.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The same likely extends to the High Lords. Yes, he probably could forcibly remove any or all of them from power - but doesn’t get to decide who replaces them.

This is actually exactly what he did. The impact of that is the primary plot of Watcher's of the Throne: The Regent's Shadow. It went about as well as could be expected. Maybe even slightly better than expected.

In fairness, he didn't even need to be there for that one.
The Imperium has it's own checks and balances to even High Lords going 'off-script'.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
For those of you saying that Inquisitors all have legal authority over the Astartes, that's very much a matter of contention. They claim they do. Many Astartes chapters claim they do not. At various times, one or the other is right.

Many Chapters? Apart from the Wolves who are actually made of plot armour - which Chapters have openly stated that they are not subject to the Inquisiton and not suffered the consequences.

However Astartes are outwith the scope of the inquisition in terms of being a requestionable asset that can be commanded.

They do this quite often in the lore so thats wrong.

Grey Knights have killed Inquisitors, Flesh Tearers have killed Inquisitors, Dark Angels have killed Inquisitors, Ultramarines have gotten away with blatantly threatening Inquisitors.

While the Space Wolves may be the most blatant about it, none of the First or Second Founding Chapters tolerate Inquisitors that overestimate their political power.

 Tyran wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
For those of you saying that Inquisitors all have legal authority over the Astartes, that's very much a matter of contention. They claim they do. Many Astartes chapters claim they do not. At various times, one or the other is right.

Many Chapters? Apart from the Wolves who are actually made of plot armour - which Chapters have openly stated that they are not subject to the Inquisiton and not suffered the consequences.

However Astartes are outwith the scope of the inquisition in terms of being a requestionable asset that can be commanded.

They do this quite often in the lore so thats wrong.

Grey Knights have killed Inquisitors, Flesh Tearers have killed Inquisitors, Dark Angels have killed Inquisitors, Ultramarines have gotten away with blatantly threatening Inquisitors.

While the Space Wolves may be the most blatant about it, none of the First or Second Founding Chapters tolerate Inquisitors that overestimate their political power.

And Inquisitors have killed whole Chapters

Which Inquisitior has single handedly wiped out an entire chapter?

They may have played a part in the downfall of a chapter, but actually wiping out an entire chapter?

I imagine there is a reason the high lord usually use multiple spacemarine chapters to sanction another chapter when they feel the need and even then it seems to be fairly rare in the lore for chapter's to be wiped out whole sale.

Heck most of the time they are just givwn oenitence crusades as "one does not waste the resources of the Emperor"

Flame Falcons and whatever chapter Astraeos belonged to name two.

Obviously no one is talking about an Inquisitor personally wiping out a chapter. They're talking about the combined influence and connections of an Inquisitor(s) destroying a chapter. If they're calling in the Grey Knights to wipe out a chapter that's "destroyed by the Inquisition"

 Mr Morden wrote:


And Inquisitors have killed whole Chapters

And thus we are back to "the political power that particular Inquisitor possess vs the political power that particular Chapter possess." And depending on those two variables, an Inquisitor may be able to requisition a Chapter, or may have to ask nicely because they would get a bolt round to the face if they don't.

Yes - thats correct.

However an Inqusitor has the right to deman the services of the Astartes - they can refuse but will be aware of the potential risk in doing so. In the same way as an Inqusitor has to be aware of the worth of the Astartes and wastng such resources again can have consequences for them - all Inqusitors have enemies within the Imperium.

The idea that most Marine Chapters would refuse a Inqusitor that required say a single squad to assist him or her goes against decades of lore, stories and background. Equally an Inquisitor is going to demand such a thing only if they need them.

I believe Prospero was the Inquisition no? And wasn't the big I also about 2 steps away from signing the death warrant of the Space Wolves thus the Inquisition and the GK are never allowed on Fenris again?

Prospero was Horus, long before the Inquisition existed. As for the Months of Shame, that ended with Lord Inquisitor Kysnaros having a personal and fatal encounter with Logan Grimnar.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I believe Prospero was the Inquisition no?

Nope. The Space Wolves, Adeptus Custodes, and Sisters of Silence were sent to Prospero by the Emperor himself to bring Magnus the Red to him. Then the Warmaster sent a message to Russ telling him that the Emperor said if the Thousand Sons don't surrender, wipe them out and bring back Magnus dead or alive. He was lying, but Russ believed him.