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Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/01/31 17:58:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do?

Afraid I’ve been spelunking down the ole eBay Stuff Mine again.

Last year, I went on a mission to acquire every Rogue Trader era book. Managed it, with the original Chapter Approved being at once the most expensive, and least impressive of the bunch. Even roped in a Canadian member of the Loot Group to secure the Orky books at a reasonable price (seller wouldn’t post international, but even with two lots of postage I got them for less than U.K. based sellers).

This year? It’s high time I fixed my Epic Space Marine itch. It’s an awesome system, and one I reckon I can get others playing (for infantry, a friend is willing and able to design our own infantry. Tanks and that aren’t too expensive as long as we’re not fussy about specific eras of the models. Barring the Epic 40K Eldar, which were inexplicably ugly models)

To start with, I’ve just bagged complete sets of Armies of the Imperium and Ork & Squat Warlords (the latter I never had as a kid).

Tokens and that aside, that leaves me with just Renegades, Hive War and the core rule books to get. Oh, and Titan Legions, I suppose.

For me, this is an exercise in nostalgia, reassembling the rules for the games I loved as a kid. And with an eye to actually playing, it seems sensible to track down the expansions with the various army cards.

Anyone else fond of the older rules? I’d love to hear your reasons and motivations, whatever they might be! This goes for any and all TTWG, not just GW.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/01/31 18:53:41


Post by: SamusDrake


Quite fond of the 3rd edition rules for Craftworlds. The Ulthwe council and Black Guardians were very awesome indeed.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/01/31 22:57:01


Post by: stonehorse


Big fan of the simplicity of 3rd edition 40k with just the lists from the core rule book, same for 6th edition WFB with just Ravening Hordes.

Less about gimmicks, and big flashy new models and more about grunts, and players making good choices on the table and not list building.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/01/31 23:42:33


Post by: Valkyrie


Been playing since 4th, I do miss how customisable your guys were back then. Not just standard weapon upgrades but also basic wargear such as Bionics (6+ FNP) or Purity Seals, etc. Means you can really make "your guys" without having to just go for the same Relics.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 00:08:57


Post by: Racerguy180


RT, epic space marine & AT are the only old stuff I'm keen on.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 03:11:30


Post by: Rob Lee


I too am a fan/collector of old editions of GW stuff.

Don't know about the rules vs 40k today (because I don't recall much about them, other than there were proper vehicle damage rules) but I love 40k 2nd edition as a whole. Although looking at it, it was a very "cardy" game. But looking at it all it just seems more complete, despite some factions that are now present not being so back then. Until a forced house move back in the early 2000s (where a lot of my stuff ended up in landfill), I did have a complete set of 2nd edition 40k, I'd love to get it all again but I'm not sure I'd play it, enough or at all, to justify buying it all again...

I have and love Warhammer Quest 1995, although I only have the starter box set contents and some alternative models for adventurers. The rules do seem a little iffy/broken at times, but it's just a better setting imho than current WHQ titles.

Ditto Necromunda, I have the 2003 rulebook (deemed to be 2nd edition) and an OG set of the cardstock terrain (need/want more!). Great aesthetic and the rules are pretty decent also. Although I've not played current Necromunda so I can't compare the rules but with a little conversion (to represent weapons) the current models fit right into old Necromunda, as I have done with the Van Saar and Cawdor box sets (although I need to finish painting my Cawdor gang)

I also have 3rd edition Bloodbowl and the Deathzone supplement (I got bought those back in 1994!!), although I only have the starter set teams - difficult to put any effort into Bloodbowl when you aren't part of a club (or your "friends" aren't into tabletop gaming). Although if I were into collecting the models I would probably replace the starter set teams with some new models, or perhaps even just strip and repaint the originals.

Have had an urge to try to source the old 2nd edition polystyrene pitch for Blood Bowl, just because, but apparently the square sizes aren't the same as 3rd edition's pitch, so it wouldn't be compatible.

Last year I bought the pdf version (and then printed and bound it myself) of 1st edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (now published by Cubicle7). Just because - my "gaming buddy" had it "back in the day" and I loved reading the books. Don't have a big enough "gaming group" to play it as I'm not part of a club and only have 1 friend (my "gaming buddy") who plays such stuff. But it's great for nostalgia and background. I may in the future buy some of the 1st edition campaign books as PDFs from Cubicle 7.

I also have Space Hulk, although my copy's 4th edition. so not sure that counts, but Space Hulk hasn't changed much since 1st edition. Would love to get one or two copies of the original 1st edition board sections, if only so that I have them to enable 1st edition missions/campaigns from WD to be played, as "the community" have updated them to 3rd/4th edition. Although again, as with 40k 2nd, it's a matter of whether or not the investment would be worth it...


I'm also currently getting into Battlefleet Gothic, apparently it's the best game GW ever made...



I'm just more of a fan of the stuff GW did during the late 80s, 90s and very early 2000's than I am of their current stuff - it was far more colourful, far more inspiring, far more engaging, far less simplified and cookie cutter, and more a hobby than a self hyped so-called "premium product".

Although strangely I've never really been a fan of actually playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle. A little too complex for me and just too many models required no matter what edition you get into. Although I do have a recurring urge, probably due to playing Total War Warhammer (1 and 2), to put together a small Empire army from miniatures still available from GW - must have steam tank!!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 13:42:50


Post by: meatybtz


I've been on an old hammer collecting streak after finding stuff at various charity shops.
Collecting as many old books as I can and rules.

Outside of Crusade, 9th just doesn't "do it" for me.

As other say, in some editions you really could make them "your guys" rather than cookie cutters.

9th Crusade kind of returns some of that and you care about your units which changes the dynamics of game play.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 15:02:27


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


First off congratulations on your RT quest, even I don't have the ork books!

I'm a huge fan of RT fluff, but I consider the game itself to be damn near unplayable.

3rd and 4th had about the right level of granularity for my taste. A bolter is a bolter, is a bolter, and a lasgun is an autogun is a crossbow. Tanks had more specific rules but that was ok because there were just a few on the table.

I also have fond memories of Epic, but that's in part because we played all the time in my dorm. If I had to look at the ork bubble chucker rules now I'm sure I'd have a different judgement.

If anyone hasn't seen them, here are some of my trips back down memory lane.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Kid_Kyoto_Retro_Review_Index


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 15:10:42


Post by: Da Boss


All the old editions have their charms.
2e was really wacky and had a smaller game size that meant it was pretty accessible. I really enjoyed learning the game back then, and I think the 2e Codex Imperialis and Wargear books are probably my favourite 40k books ever.

Same was true of 5e Fantasy, a wacky game with super heroes carving up regiments, but a smaller game size along with that and really cool books in the starter.

3e and 6e both simplified the game and balanced it, opening it up in a way by providing lists in the starter box. The model quality increased in this time and I really enjoyed the core rules. Sadly, the codex release schedule got a bit out of hand back then, with some factions getting multiple releases while others languished. I loved the 6e Starter for Fantasy too.

4e and 7e... I was more fond of 7e Fantasy, to be honest. I think this is mostly because I spent almost the entire edition waiting for my Ork boyz to be updated while watching the game bloat out with other factions. I think in other ways 4e was an improvement on 3e, but it suffered from not being a full update like 3e was and not bothering with having updated lists in the rulebook. 7e started off really well and became my main game for a while, but eventually went way off the rails due to poorly written army books. It had a fantastic starter though, made the guts of two full armies for me that I still get use out of.

I reckon 5e is the best core rules edition of 40K ever and I really enjoyed playing at that time. It got a bit wonky at the end with the fliers and big stuff starting to creep in, but overall it is probably my favourite edition of 40k. If it had had reset lists again, it would be hands down, but I really love the 3e BBB lists.
I also think 5e is one of the best starters they ever released. Loads of boyz, nobs, deffkoptas, and a solid force of Marines.

On the other hand, although 8e Fantasy had a wonderful rulebook and starter set, but it really killed the game for me. Game size increased too much, magic became too significant, and the game lost it's charm to me. Then they ended the Old World, which is a shame.

6e 40K killed my interest in the game and it hasn't recovered. So my interest in GW games kinda collapsed for both games around the same time.

As to specialist games, I think nothing will ever top original Necromunda and Mordheim for that flavourful gang warfare fun, and Battlefleet Gothic is one of the best things GW have ever produced, I am amazed they don't ever want to bring it back. Too many metal models or something?

TL, DR: 5e 40K and 6e Fantasy are my happy place.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 15:25:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
First off congratulations on your RT quest, even I don't have the ork books!

I'm a huge fan of RT fluff, but I consider the game itself to be damn near unplayable.

3rd and 4th had about the right level of granularity for my taste. A bolter is a bolter, is a bolter, and a lasgun is an autogun is a crossbow. Tanks had more specific rules but that was ok because there were just a few on the table.

I also have fond memories of Epic, but that's in part because we played all the time in my dorm. If I had to look at the ork bubble chucker rules now I'm sure I'd have a different judgement.

If anyone hasn't seen them, here are some of my trips back down memory lane.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Kid_Kyoto_Retro_Review_Index


I find that reading the RT era books in order is an awesome exercise in understanding 40K then and now.

It’s easy for peeps to not know or to have forgotten that the level of success kinda surprised GW. This meant over its five or six year or so life span, it went under various iterations (for instance, playing just with Rogue Trader, and playing with the Vehicle Manual are basically two distinct experiences).

Yet it was also a period of frankly insane creativity. Things got more and more codified. Some stuff fell by the wayside, and have returned in altered forms over the decades. Others just aren’t there anymore (Illuminati, Starchild etc). The great joy of course being that they’re not actively denied or removed, so can still be treated about as canon as the rest of 40K. What is remarkable for me is just how little the Orks have changed. Other than Nobz and that being physically larger models, everything else has largely stayed the same.

I do think it’s a shame other races didn’t get the same treatment as Orks did, but again that’s an indicator of just how chaotic and mental 40k’s growth was.

2nd Ed was definitely required. It didn’t massively change the size of games as a purpose, but it made them easier to handle. The rules (comparatively) were neater, and easier to follow. And with greater resources pumped in (more plastic kits, more vehicles), players armies expanded, and bigger games were played.

3rd Ed? Yes it was a smoother system, but from me it threw baby out with the bath water. Like someone looking to lose a few pounds going all cross fit mental and no longer coming down the pub for a laugh.

Maybe it’s a pure grognard thing, but as someone who is familiar with the early days (even if I missed them, starting as I did with 2nd Ed), many of the comments about constant FAQ and Errata? To me they’re simply par for the course. It’s always been that way with 40K, as has the Codex and Edition cycle.

Now, that is not a lazy, handwavium excuse. My experiences do not by any stretch negate such comments and complaints. It’s just, well, I’m so used to them, they neither disappoint nor surprise me as an individual.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 15:32:56


Post by: Da Boss


I think it is really about what you want from the game. As a kid playing 2e, I was really happy with all the wacky stuff that happened. It wasn't really a wargame as much as it was a sort of skirmish roleplaying game with lots of crazy stuff happening. We definitely did the most of our crazy and imaginative stuff back then in terms of weird scenarios and so on.

3e was like a bucket of cold water at first. But then when I played it, I saw the point - the make this a wargame, where you used tactics and so on, where the normal troopers were emphasised over super characters and massive explosions. And it meant you were telling a different kind of story, but also playing a game that was more of a competition. And there's nothing wrong with that.

If I want that roleplaying experience, I can play a roleplaying game now. When I was a kid, I didn't know what an RPG was at all, but when I found Dungeons and Dragons in University, I was like "Oh, this is what we were doing in 2e 40K!"

That said, I still incorporated stories into my games all through 3e, 4e and 5e and all through 6e and 7e fantasy in particular. The stories were just less focused on the heroic characters and more on the story of the army as a whole, kind of like a different genre of fiction.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 15:52:19


Post by: Pacific


Great to hear you are getting into Epic MDG and especially 2nd edition which was possibly my favourite version (although am sure nostalgia plays a big part of that!)

Have been listening to a few of the Crown of Command podcasts recently and that has really made me want to play that version again! Of course, the beauty is that there are lots of rule sets you can play with the same set of models. So you can do that nostalgia collection thing for 2nd edition Space Marine, and then it's a very short step to NetEpic, which is the current community effort and for which you can still find ongoing tournaments and events (well.. when things like that are easily possible again anyway).

What has kind of shocked me is how big some of these communities still are despite it sometimes being many years since the official versions were last on sale. Some of the Epic FB groups have tens of thousands of members with new completed armies popping up every day. I think the 3d printing and new proxy miniature producers (Vanguard, Onslaught etc.) have really helped and mean you don't have to rely on eBay price gougers or lucky finds. I love it, it's super chilled-out and you can pick your way through releases and miniatures at your own pace, for what you want to do, without the pressure of the meta crowd or needing to get the biggest and latest for 40k tournaments and the like.

Oh and 2nd edition 40k FTW

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

If anyone hasn't seen them, here are some of my trips back down memory lane.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Kid_Kyoto_Retro_Review_Index


Ah I love your retro reviews, always a great laugh. Will have a look through and make sure I have read them all!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 16:02:32


Post by: jaredb



SamusDrake wrote:
Quite fond of the 3rd edition rules for Craftworlds. The Ulthwe council and Black Guardians were very awesome indeed.


I still have nightmares playing against Altioc and that damned ranger disruption table. That was one of the most obnoxious and un-interactive things I've ever experienced. Just start the game with your whole army pinned and/or in reserves and being shot at before the game starts.

3rd edition was certainly the wild west of 40k. Every other white dwarf had a whole new random (broken) army list in it, and nothing was balanced lol.

I really enjoyed 5th and 6th edition. 7th would have been great, if formations weren't free. That was wild.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 17:48:27


Post by: SamusDrake


 jaredb wrote:


I still have nightmares playing against Altioc and that damned ranger disruption table.


As well you should! Ah, the glory days of being an eldar player. Sigh....


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 17:51:24


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Nah, that was 2nd Ed. Shuriken Catapults better than Storm Bolters. Warp Spiders being absolutely horrific to face.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 18:28:03


Post by: SamusDrake


Codex Craftworlds? 2000?

Its got the ranger disruption table.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 18:28:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I was meaning the Eldar Glory Days


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 18:32:57


Post by: SamusDrake


Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooh. I seeeeeeeeee.....


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 19:10:54


Post by: gorgon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Nah, that was 2nd Ed. Shuriken Catapults better than Storm Bolters. Warp Spiders being absolutely horrific to face.


That entire codex was bananas. Not just in the big ways, but in lots of little ways also. You could choose your flavor of broken.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 19:45:36


Post by: the_scotsman


My local game shop is moving, and the owner pulled me aside and said "hey, I think these are Eldar, I want the box they're in, do you want these?"

I now have thirty or so rogue trader/2nd edition era Harlequins sitting in a nice acetone bath becoming un-painted, I'm very excited.

The only problem is, they're an el classico "was played with for a long time" 2nd edition army, which means much like the ancient roman statuary found defaced as foolish romans updated their dead relatives' hairstyles, many of my beautiful harlequins are missing hands and arms due to someone having updated their weapon loadout and the altered weapon being long since broken or lost.

Looking through them I believe I have almost all of the 1988 metal harlequin sculpts, with multiple duplicates. I haven't decided whether I'll try to carefully replicate their original weaponry with my 3d printer and greenstuff, or whether I'll try to kitbash them with modern bits.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/01 23:21:18


Post by: lord_blackfang


I'm bringing back Man o War.

Actually that's not quite right. The first gaming store over here opened when MoW was already OOP, so nobody in my area has ever ever played it.

But now we will. I got all the cardboard in a BGG trade and some glorious gentleman has sent me all the rulebooks for free, and the miniature line is well on its way to being completey digitzed for 3d printing.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/02 05:20:20


Post by: Howard A Treesong


I like looking through and reading the older editions far more than I would play. But if I had a like-minded playgroup I’d definitely have a game of 2nd edition for old time’s sake, or do a Inq28 style campaign adapting Rogue Trader rules for table games.

I prefer the feel of the fluff in older books, it has more of that grim, raw feel which is since diminished as you have less of the sinister stuff and more silly ‘awesome’ characters like Draigo or whoever. Also you had a lot more freedom to stick random stuff in rather than follow an army list. 2nd edition was fairly flexible, you look in the back of the codex books and there’s all sorts, dæmon-world armies, beastmen, entire armies of frateris militia led be mad priests, or whatever. Rogue Trader is a free-for-all, you can take your dark inquisitor with a random mutation off the D1000 table and his pet Grinyx, and put him in a custom vehicle to lead your zoat swarm...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/02 07:48:52


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


It's odd since I have Africa's largest collection of Space Fleet models (well I assume I do, if anyone can prove me wrong please do) but I've never actually played Space Fleet.

I hear however it is quite a cool game (barring the throw dice in your box lid). The mechanic is you have to specify how your ship will move (turn, straight, stop) simultaneously with your opponent so one miscalculation can put you at a serious strategic disadvantage.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/02 10:12:30


Post by: lord_blackfang


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

I hear however it is quite a cool game (barring the throw dice in your box lid). The mechanic is you have to specify how your ship will move (turn, straight, stop) simultaneously with your opponent so one miscalculation can put you at a serious strategic disadvantage.


Space Fleet copied X-wing!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/02 10:12:41


Post by: JonWebb


Check out the crown of command if you fancy some 90's GW nostalgia.

Joshua is rounding up various bods who like their lead minis and we do podcasts, You Tube videos and more.

I've been doing the Epic 2E retrospective with Joshua, we are through the core box and Armies of the Imperium, well into Warlords and just fought our first batt rep via the interwebs with me in the UK and Joshua in Japan


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/02 10:19:59


Post by: Pacific


Have been listening to that at the moment and really enjoying it!

Completely agree with how characterful the different Ork clans were at that period, it definitely made Orks a lot more interesting in Epic (and the whole army look a lot more colourful!)


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/02 10:26:18


Post by: JonWebb


 Pacific wrote:
Have been listening to that at the moment and really enjoying it!

Completely agree with how characterful the different Ork clans were at that period, it definitely made Orks a lot more interesting in Epic (and the whole army look a lot more colourful!)


Good to hear and thanks

When I was a kid, I owned a Mega Gargant, a Goff Clan and a blister of Gutrippers and I dreamed of having all six clans fully kitted out... as an adult, I have the minis, I just don't have the time :(
Same with the 40K 2nd ed orks... got several 1000 points waiting for their time to shine :(

The riot of colours, back banners and sheer comedic madness of 2nd ed 40K/Epic cannot be beaten on the Ork front


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/04 19:14:43


Post by: Stormonu


I'm lucky enough I have all the old core rulebooks back to 2E (my RT book fell apart, unfortunately). However, I don't have any secondary books or codexes prior to what appears to be 3rd or 4th edition. Somehow I have a near-mint copy of Dark Millennium for 2E.

The books are fun to look at and see how the game has evolved, but because of space restrictions, all my old books had to go into storage - which has made it unlikely now that I'll continue to seek out a copy of RT to complete my rulebook collection.

I do wish they would bring back some form of the old robot rules from Rogue Trader, or at least non-forgeworld versions of the robots beyond the Castellan. As someone who does computer programming, I was intrigued by the way they had to be programmed, and I bet they could make a fun 40K roborally-like game with those old rules.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/04 20:09:22


Post by: infinite_array


 JonWebb wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
Have been listening to that at the moment and really enjoying it!

Completely agree with how characterful the different Ork clans were at that period, it definitely made Orks a lot more interesting in Epic (and the whole army look a lot more colourful!)


Good to hear and thanks

When I was a kid, I owned a Mega Gargant, a Goff Clan and a blister of Gutrippers and I dreamed of having all six clans fully kitted out... as an adult, I have the minis, I just don't have the time :(
Same with the 40K 2nd ed orks... got several 1000 points waiting for their time to shine :(

The riot of colours, back banners and sheer comedic madness of 2nd ed 40K/Epic cannot be beaten on the Ork front


Also a listener! And you guys make it really tempting to not try to get some kind of old edition project going.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/05 14:24:53


Post by: Pacific


Haha Infinite_array I have been already checking out the Vanguard website today and looking at the 'Skinner' range, partly as a result of that podcast

I had been collecting for Orks for Epic Armageddon but after reading through some of the NetEpic rules (which is pretty much 2nd ed Space Marine with nobs on) there is just so much character in the Ork force that isn't present in EA. In EA you have mekboy vehicles and weirdboy towers reduced to powerful shooting weapons. In Space Marine your Weirdboy tower is absorbing energy from surrounding Orks and can be massively powerful, or you can get greedy, suck up too much and end up blowing a massive crater in your army! And your Mekboy vehicles have got all kinds of zany effects and bubble-chuckas that can envelope an enemy titan weapon so it blows itself up (lol). In EA you just have Ork Boyz, in Space Marine they actually have character depending on which clan they belong to. So left unsupervised Goffs will charge at the enemy, Evil Sunz will try and drive around at top speed, while Blood Axes will slunk off towards a table edge. The list goes on..

Not to denigrate Armageddon at all, I love that game too. I can totally see why it is so popular in tournaments because it's a massively tactical game, and it's brilliant watching a very good player take apart an opponent with tactical acumen. But, I think for flavour (and for Orks especially) I think the 2nd edition Space Marine, and NetEpic, captures the character of the faction perfectly (from a time when they were at their most characterful).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/05 18:32:09


Post by: JonWebb


 Pacific wrote:


Not to denigrate Armageddon at all, I love that game too. I can totally see why it is so popular in tournaments because it's a massively tactical game, and it's brilliant watching a very good player take apart an opponent with tactical acumen. But, I think for flavour (and for Orks especially) I think the 2nd edition Space Marine, and NetEpic, captures the character of the faction perfectly (from a time when they were at their most characterful).



Both 2nd and 4th ed epic have their strengths for sure.

I always say 2nd for pleasure, 4th for business.

2nd is my go to these days, but it does take a lot more time to play.

I’m getting weird hankerings to try 3rd again also...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/05 21:28:28


Post by: judgedoug


There must be something in the air as I also have decided to get back into Epic 40k (3rd) after a 23 year absence. I promised myself just a marine and ork army to start with.

oops, after several really great deals and an order to Vanguard, I have marines, orks, eldar, tyranids, chaos, and guard. And when I say I have marines, I have like 3 marine armies. and like 2 ork armies. and 3 guard armies. Only about 1.5 Eldar armies though... even managed to get a giant pile of the very rare E40k Chaos stuff including several of the blink-and-you-missed-it 1997 plastic E40k chaos sprues...



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 13:22:04


Post by: Eilif


I love the look and vibe of 2nd edition but playing it cured me off any nostalgia for the rules themselves.

I'm a big fan of the " Necromunda Community Edition" a slightly repaired and tweaked version of "Underhive". Had alot of fun with those rules.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 16:31:12


Post by: Da Boss


I went and listened to Crown of Command after reading about it here. Thanks for the recommendation, it was a very pleasant listen.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 16:50:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Back at it, tracking down reasonably priced copies of Space Marine Battles, a compilation of WD articles.

Particularly keen on this one, as it includes new units and a rather great short story about a Chaos Markne.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 16:55:41


Post by: meatybtz


I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

For OOP books I look up a quality backup copy and use my skills at book binding to produce a long lasting copy just to have in the collection. I have the ability to print double sided near bleed high gloss heavy stock in color laser quality so I can make really nice reproductions, not fakes, it's pretty obvious they are not but I can hard-bind or soft cover depending on how much work I want to put out or the overall weight of the completed print if it's too heavy for a soft cover to last.
NO, I don't sell them. They are for my own self enjoyment. I like printing and binding. It's just one of the million hobbies I need to keep my mind happy.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 17:18:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 meatybtz wrote:
I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

For OOP books I look up a quality backup copy and use my skills at book binding to produce a long lasting copy just to have in the collection. I have the ability to print double sided near bleed high gloss heavy stock in color laser quality so I can make really nice reproductions, not fakes, it's pretty obvious they are not but I can hard-bind or soft cover depending on how much work I want to put out or the overall weight of the completed print if it's too heavy for a soft cover to last.
NO, I don't sell them. They are for my own self enjoyment. I like printing and binding. It's just one of the million hobbies I need to keep my mind happy.


I’ve got a few kicking about. Let me know what you’re missing, and which edition.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 18:05:03


Post by: Just Tony


Getting the old 3rd Ed. 40K books and 6th Ed. WFB books over again has been a real treat. Just wish getting some of those era's models were easier or cheaper to get. .


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 18:18:13


Post by: Pacific


Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Back at it, tracking down reasonably priced copies of Space Marine Battles, a compilation of WD articles.

Particularly keen on this one, as it includes new units and a rather great short story about a Chaos Markne.


Is that the one that went with the Blood Angels and Chaos battle report? That was very cool, very chaos-y chaos marines!

Da Boss wrote:I went and listened to Crown of Command after reading about it here. Thanks for the recommendation, it was a very pleasant listen.


The chap that runs the blog has constantly been posting with updates of painted Epic Orks and terrain (like the Golgotha terrain from the old WD battle reports) so hopefully not too long before they get Jon Webb back on and finish it off.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 18:28:22


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think that’s the one. If not, no idea which book it is in!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/17 20:27:11


Post by: JonWebb


 Pacific wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Back at it, tracking down reasonably priced copies of Space Marine Battles, a compilation of WD articles.

Particularly keen on this one, as it includes new units and a rather great short story about a Chaos Markne.


Is that the one that went with the Blood Angels and Chaos battle report? That was very cool, very chaos-y chaos marines!

Da Boss wrote:I went and listened to Crown of Command after reading about it here. Thanks for the recommendation, it was a very pleasant listen.


The chap that runs the blog has constantly been posting with updates of painted Epic Orks and terrain (like the Golgotha terrain from the old WD battle reports) so hopefully not too long before they get Jon Webb back on and finish it off.


Josh and I are recording again I want to say this weekend.

Should be doing a rematch soon too...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/18 08:40:09


Post by: Insectum7


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Last year, I went on a mission to acquire every Rogue Trader era book. Managed it

You are my hero!

I don't have much from Rogue Trader, but I do have two copies of the rulebook (one hardback, one softcover), The Compilation and (somewhere, misplaced?) the Compendium.
I have all the 2nd ed codexes including the Sisters and Assassins books. I miiight have all the 3rd and 4th ed codexes. . . not entirely sure.

I've slowly been collecting older models over the past few years. Some of it I've searched out, and some of which has landed in my lap as old friends find random stuff and give it to me. I've got:

Nearly a hundred of the original plastic Tyranid Warriors, 60+ original plastic Genestealers.
A full company of RTB01s
four RT era Land Raiders, two Rhinos, one Dreadnought
30-40 plastic Squats
30-40 original plastic Guardsmen
A small collection of RT era Chaos Marines, Terminators and Dreadnought (30ish models?)
Probably some other stuff rattling around

A buddy of mine and I had just started playing 2nd edition and original Space Hulk before covid. It's harder to game now with covid and we both recently gained our respective second children.

2nd is a baller system for some really gritty and engaging games. I love it. I think 40K hit it's peak as a game during 4th edition though. Rules were great and the codexes were the best combination of lore, rules and customization. Epic and BFG were great too but I can't imagine starting collections in other scales atm, and I'm happy to settle for the occasional game of 2nd ed for the time being. I played 8th right up until the lockdowns, and haven't had an opportunity to play 9th.

I'm currently painting (slowly) my RT era Terminators. Captain, Librarian, and enough to make two five man squads plus extra heavy weapons to swap out. (I love the old Cyclone Missile Launcher). These guys are getting 25mm bases for our Space Hulk Games.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/18 08:50:25


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Secured my copy of Epic Space Marine Battles, should be here soon. Very much looking forward to reading those wonderful battle reports.

In terms of Rogue Trader, I particularly enjoy being able to track its very quick evolution from 1st to 2nd Ed.

The early books are more enthusiastic than competent. The rules are all over the shop, but the background really does make up for any failings.

But as you chew through them in order, things definitely get more orderly, to the point where the last couple are pretty much 2nd Ed books, illustrations and all.

It’s kinda sobering to realise that such a glorious early doors mess simply wouldn’t survive in the modern market. That’s how far hobby war gaming has come in a pretty short period of time. Because I’d say the same would hold true even mid-2nd Ed to early 3rd Ed.

I think it’s one of the reasons I find relative newcomers complaints about rules being in WD a bit...well, odd. That’s not to say their complaints are baseless (they absolutely aren’t), just that to a sad old grognard like me, that’s just the way it’s always been, and something I actively enjoy.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/18 10:46:56


Post by: Pacific


Great stuff Jonwebb It must be awkward with the time zone differences! (Isn't he in Japan or Australia?)

Totally know what you mean MDG - think in those days we just played with what we had. I think there were entire expansions that we didn't know about, rules updates etc. but it didn't seem to matter much and you just muddled through. No way of looking up rules online either so am sure there was a lot of stuff that got played incorrectly - one route was to write into GW, think I got replies from both Jervis Johnson and Gav Thorpe explaining a rule query I had (hand-written letters!) As for complaining about balance, well obviously you had never played against Nids in 2nd edition! It used to be an achievement if you didn't get tabled.

Think these days everything is so interconnected with the online communities and the level of expectation is far higher, a typo on p46 of a 200 page rulebook gets immediately seized upon and there are hundreds if not thousands of players looking to exploit every nook and cranny and army list combination. It makes it very difficult to square up all of the armies, and in some ways I wish they wouldn't try as every cut down army list and lack of options is a bit less character on the tabletop when comparing with some of those older games.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/18 17:53:39


Post by: Insectum7


 meatybtz wrote:
I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.


Which data cards? If you're talking 2nd ed datafaxes I might have the full set including WD releases.

If you're talking the old Epic formations. . . Wow I'd love to get some pics of those!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/19 01:23:50


Post by: meatybtz


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 meatybtz wrote:
I am still collecting old data cards. The problem is that unlike the current production run the old data-cards were limited production runs and so there never really were a lot.

For OOP books I look up a quality backup copy and use my skills at book binding to produce a long lasting copy just to have in the collection. I have the ability to print double sided near bleed high gloss heavy stock in color laser quality so I can make really nice reproductions, not fakes, it's pretty obvious they are not but I can hard-bind or soft cover depending on how much work I want to put out or the overall weight of the completed print if it's too heavy for a soft cover to last.
NO, I don't sell them. They are for my own self enjoyment. I like printing and binding. It's just one of the million hobbies I need to keep my mind happy.


I’ve got a few kicking about. Let me know what you’re missing, and which edition.


Currently 7th Dark Eldar and 7th Skitarii.. I don't even know if they made a set for Cult Mechanicus (since they were separate armies back then.. GW was so hit and miss and limited print runs, not all books and armies got them, I don't think Chaos SM got them at all in 6th).

Found a set of Dark Eldar 7th cards on Fleabay but it was in England and the shipping was over twice the cost of the set. Ugh.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/19 09:13:10


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’ve got the 7th Ed ones for....

Skitarii
Cult Mechanicus
Blood Angels (dunno why!)
Harlequins
Necrons
Orks
Khorne Daemonkin
Genestealer Cults.

And whilst not data cards as such, I’ve also got the Battlezone Empyric Storm card deck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when digging those out, found my Blood Bowl Star Players and Compendium books.

Replacements for the ones I got in Brighton as a kid.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/19 15:49:56


Post by: meatybtz


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’ve got the 7th Ed ones for....

Skitarii
Cult Mechanicus
Blood Angels (dunno why!)
Harlequins
Necrons
Orks
Khorne Daemonkin
Genestealer Cults.

And whilst not data cards as such, I’ve also got the Battlezone Empyric Storm card deck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, when digging those out, found my Blood Bowl Star Players and Compendium books.

Replacements for the ones I got in Brighton as a kid.


Glad you found the old school Blood Bowl book. It's always fun to unearth lost things. Wow Cult mech got a card deck? I don't think I even saw it ever listed for sale. I'd be interested in the Orks, Harlies, Cult Mech and Skitarri, but shipping between us might make it a no go :\ PM?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/20 11:34:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Looking at biting the bullet on Epic Hive War.

There’s only one eBay listing, which lacks peeachoors. Description is two sets, which are nearly complete.

Have asked the seller what they mean by Nearly Complete. I mean, a copy without the rulebook is nearly complete, as is one just missing say, 2 out 5 of a specific token, which are easily replaced.

He’s asking a fairly princely sum for it - and the listing has been up for a while. This may end up being a “make an offer” job. Spesh as I don’t really need or want two copies.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/21 15:28:51


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 stonehorse wrote:
Big fan of the simplicity of 3rd edition 40k with just the lists from the core rule book, same for 6th edition WFB with just Ravening Hordes.

Less about gimmicks, and big flashy new models and more about grunts, and players making good choices on the table and not list building.


My preference would be 4th edition Warhammer and the army list booklet in that box, but otherwise I agree. In 40k, I'd choose 2nd edition with the "black booklet" for platoon-level games, and 8th or 9th with the Index books for large-scale games. I'd like to give 1st edition a try at some point, but I don't think I'd like to try and play "all" of it, as it ended up by 1993.

I played a lot of 2nd edition Epic, but I really feel that Epic Armageddon does the best job out of all four editions of really getting into the flavour of the factions at a large scale. Marines absolutely feel like Marines, dropping out of the sky and capturing objectives in lightning raids. Before the new Adeptus Titanicus came out, I ran the 1st edition game at a few wargames shows. I was really surprised about how straightforward the rules are (before you ruin it with the Codex Titanicus material ), and I could see myself continuing to pay that if the new game hadn't come along.

I think, though, my preference would be to mine each edition for the things I liked and house-rule them together. For example, 2nd edition 40k, with the force organisation charts from 3rd edition might work, or Kill Team and the GM-led scenarios from 1st edition 40k, that sort of thing.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/21 15:37:18


Post by: amazingturtles


3rd edition was my first, so there's some nostalgia there for me, but there's also just something to having everything you need to play a game in one book.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/21 22:06:33


Post by: Nevelon


 amazingturtles wrote:
3rd edition was my first, so there's some nostalgia there for me, but there's also just something to having everything you need to play a game in one book.


3rd was also a completely different beast at the start and the end. Right off the bat (once you got over the massive change from 2nd) it was great. Some of the rules were a little clunky, but hey, it’s 40k, that’s normal. But as codexes started to drop, not only did you have issues with big book vs. codex games (which were not even remotely fair) but the codex creep was harsh. So if you got an early book you got to stomp the people still using the hold me over lists, but once they got a book that was newer then yours, things turned around pretty quick.

And while it was nice that they updated and added more rules, near the end of the cycle almost no part of the main book was valid, and you needed a stack of WDs to play.

Still probably my favorite edition, but again, lot of nostalgia there. I played RT more as an RPG, and only a handful of small games of 2nd. So it was my first real run of 40k as a wargame, and I played a LOT.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/21 22:21:26


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also depends on the army you played.

Blood Angels and Dark Angels needed the core Codex and the sub Codex.

As a confessed Sad Old Git, I don’t have fond memories of 3rd Ed.

Sure. The game needed slimming down, rationalising and streamlining, but my take away from it was ‘baby thrown out with the bath water”.

Just felt like the background was relegated in favour of cheaper, thinner rule books.

Thankfully, that “crash diet” phase was relatively short lived, and around 5th (I think) we saw some of the weapon diversity return.

I guess if I could sum up 3rd Ed as someone that cut their teef on 2nd Ed is ‘anaemic’. The rules were for the most part objectively better, but it sold its soul in the effort.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/21 22:23:05


Post by: Da Boss


I started in 2e but it seemed really sprawling and mysterious to me. Like you needed cards for a lot of the vehicles, and you needed a separate box for all the wargear and psychic rules and stuff. I never felt like I understood it all, but I didn't much care either.

3e was a huge shock, but once I got over it, I started to appreciate the game being concise enough that I felt I could understand the whole thing as a system. And being able to look at all the forces and imagine how they would play was really fun. And ever since I have enjoyed systems like that where you can grasp them and have a view to the entire game from reading the main book. I have to say that's the main thing I find offputting about modern 40K, all the stratagems and stuff seem like so much to keep track of that I just give up before I get started.

So I look to 3e as kind of my "golden age" of 40K. And I feel the same about 6e Warhammer Fantasy, for similar reasons.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/22 18:42:03


Post by: AndrewGPaul


2nd edition came about, because the 1st edition rules were creaking under the weight of trying to play games with up to fifty models and a vehicle or two (or, Emperor forbid, an entire squad n bikes!). Likewise, 3rd edition realised that people were trying to play company-sized games with a ruleset designed for platoon-level games, so they stripped out a lot of the stuff that affected single models in a squad, and lost as many of the lingering effects as possible - being set on fire, recharging plasma weapons etc.

You can see something similar with the change from 2nd edition Epic to Epic 40,000 - everything that wasn't relevant to a regimental commander was dropped and streamlined to provide the sort of high-level command and manoeuvre experience you should have at that scale, rather than worrying about the sponsons on one tank.

I'd argue that every Chapter could be adequately represented using just the simple army list in the 3rd edition rulebook (or the one in the 2nd edition box, too).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 07:39:39


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Fair arguments

Though I still claim 2nd Ed Epic to be the best!

Something I didn’t really appreciate at the time was how each army had specific perks.

In terms of getting your VPs, you had Objectives go seize, and enemy units to force to their Break Point.

Break Points were defined by the unit card. Usually points were awarded by reducing the unit to half strength. But, Squats had to be take to quarter strength. It doesn’t sound a lot, but it means you’ve got to work harder, and use a different strategy.

Marines were the best all rounders, but didn’t have much in the way of properly heavy firepower or tanks. What they did have was mobility, as most of not all units came with Rhinos or Jump Packs. This made them a very aggressive force, one to be play the game on its own terms.

Eldar? Warlocks were quite saucy, as they allowed units within their Buff Bubble to apply orders once the enemy had revealed theirs. Again may not sound like much of a perk, but used well you can run rings around your enemy, as you’ve the advantage of reaction.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other Epic news (well, olds), I’m glad I didn’t buy those copies of Hive War.

The seller considers the lack of the rule book to be “near complete”.

I most vehemently disagreed.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 11:53:51


Post by: Pacific


My God.. it's lucky you checked !

What a joke, that would have been a return and negative feedback for that person from me.

Agree about the character of 2nd edition Epic forces. I think I said already above in the thread, but the Ork forces in that game are just so characterful. I would say possibly the most varied and 'fun' set of rules in terms of how Orks have ever been represented.
Tyranids look like a lot of fun too with the Hive synapse rules and similar. Sadly I think they came along too late in the day in Space Marine's release for me to try them (I think) but would love to have a go with them.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 12:46:11


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I loved the army construction method for Tyranids in 2nd Ed Epic. The hexagon/hive mind structure was very cool.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 13:00:47


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It’s a rule set I never got, but having a passing familiarity with.

If memory serves, instead of Company and Support Cards, you have Hive Mind beasties.

Each could support a set number of other gribblies - from two for Warriors, to six for the biggest beasties like the Dominatrix?

Desperate to find a complete copy!

Rogue Trader side (as it’s a gloriously anarchic mess), it’s nice to see my fond recollections aren’t just rose tinted glasses. Epic certainly offered a decent amount of variety between the armies without breaking the rules.

Orks? Break points were cumulative for the Company Card and Support Cards.

Imperial Guard? Needed to maintain your command structure if you wanted to issue Orders.

Every army was subtly different, and needed a different approach. Space Marines for example, thanks to their Rhino Transports, were pretty fast moving. As they didn’t have the raw firepower of other forces, a safe approach was dominating objectives, and victimising the right enemy units to bag the remaining VPs you needed.

What a wonderful game! And there’s a boxed copy on eBay for £150 right now..... Been there for a while, so just made an offer. If that pans out? Should just be Titan Legions and Hive War to go....


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 13:33:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I remember when Titan Legions came out. The sheer number of guns on the Mega-Gargant was impressive.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If memory serves, instead of Company and Support Cards, you have Hive Mind beasties.

Each could support a set number of other gribblies - from two for Warriors, to six for the biggest beasties like the Dominatrix?
Yeah. That was it. Always made me wish they'd do unique FOCs for each race in 40k.

Instead we got the current slew of generic FOCs which, in a lot of ways, defeat the purpose of the FOC.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 13:42:06


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Indeed. And am I going made, or did it too have a transport capacity?

Not sure if I think that because it’s true, or because the art showed it disgorging tanks out the back?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 13:50:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I think all Gargants had a transport capacity of some sort. Orks have a very "and the kitchen sink" to feature design.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 14:08:40


Post by: JonWebb


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think all Gargants had a transport capacity of some sort. Orks have a very "and the kitchen sink" to feature design.


Sadly not.

Mega Gargants had a crew that could "get out" and hold objectives.

Mekboy/Slasha/Great couldn't transport troops.

The Imperator was the only "true" transport Titan due to its leg bastions (usually full of a titan defence company).
Some of the metal upgrades for Warlords etc featured space for troops or included a mob of Terminators for boarding, but nothing that could carry any meaningful troop formations.

Part two of the Ork half of Warlords is up on the Crown of Command BTW, for anyone following along.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 15:17:30


Post by: A.T.


 JonWebb wrote:
The Imperator was the only "true" transport Titan due to its leg bastions (usually full of a titan defence company).
Some of the metal upgrades for Warlords etc featured space for troops or included a mob of Terminators for boarding, but nothing that could carry any meaningful troop formations.
Corvus assault pods and head - I actually have a complete battle group of three titans outfitted this way somewhere (along with fire control and plasma weapons on the carapace, and the 30 bases of terminators needed to fill them).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/02/23 17:21:51


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Got that complete copy of Space Marine! Very excited by this.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/02 13:50:08


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


And took the jump on Hive War.

Spent around £120ish across two eBay listings. One for a boxed set missing the rules, the other for the rules.

As mentioned before, I’m quite looking forward to this arriving, as it’s not something I ever owned before. And looking at the pics of my newly purchased book, turns out the NiddlyDiddly’s couldn’t score VPs for objectives.... Makes them rather a different proposition to carry to victory!

My friend also got his Resin Printer at the weekend, so I’m sorted for getting infantry done. Probably won’t use debigulaged GW designs due to entirely personal preferences - but open to close approximations!

If I can persuade my friend well enough, I fancy getting enough infantry done so each Company and Support Card has corresponding units available.

Tanks and stuff? Well.....I’m open to 3D prints, but it depends on how hard I find it to source 2nd hand models.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/02 15:13:19


Post by: Pacific


Awesome stuff! I love the Nids in Epic, with those giant bio-titans, having a sea of hormagaunts overwhelming defending units etc. Really I think they work really well in that larger scale.

Quick Appreciation Society nerd question: Does anyone know if the Epic Nids ever featured in a WD battle report? I have the WD Battle book which doesn't have anything in it, but am conscious that came along during the 2nd edition releases rather than after them.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/02 15:24:33


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There probably was one in White Dwarf issue 183?

It’s the issue where Hive War was released, so I suspect would’ve included a show off Battle Report.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/02 17:11:37


Post by: JonWebb


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There probably was one in White Dwarf issue 183?

It’s the issue where Hive War was released, so I suspect would’ve included a show off Battle Report.


184, the month after.

This is a helpful list of articles.
https://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/clanbertram_archive/GW/Epic_SM_TLart.htm



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/02 21:14:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


That was the first Epic battle report I ever read.

So many fancy new Tyranid things in there. I'm glad that at least one of those tank-beasts (the Exocrine) eventually made it into 40k*. Shame the Dactylis never did.




*I suppose the Trygon did as well, now that I think about it.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/02 22:13:21


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Dactylis yeeted spore pods, if memory serves?

Imagine it as a sort of transport, which could lob middle sized Gribblies into the enemy’s ranks, as well as regular nasty spores.





Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/03 00:06:24


Post by: Platuan4th


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That was the first Epic battle report I ever read.

So many fancy new Tyranid things in there. I'm glad that at least one of those tank-beasts (the Exocrine) eventually made it into 40k*. Shame the Dactylis never did.




*I suppose the Trygon did as well, now that I think about it.


Never, unless you count the Forge World US one.



They occasionally pop-up on eBay still.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/03 02:32:41


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Armorcast, I believe. I mean, the Malefactor, Haruspex and Exocrine also came into 40k via that method, but I meant as an actual GW release.

Maybe it still will, given that the Exocrine (and Haruspex, for that matter) did make it to 40k over a decade later.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imagine it as a sort of transport, which could lob middle sized Gribblies into the enemy’s ranks, as well as regular nasty spores.
Nah man, the Dactylis was the Tyranid's version of the Basilisk!

If you wanted a transport, you got the Malefactor:





Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/03 08:35:11


Post by: Pacific


MDG and JonWebb, you are legends both, many thanks

What kind of rates are the old Nid bits and pieces going for on the 'Bay? An alternative would be some of the Onslaught minis that were linked a few posts ago.

BTW if anyone is after ranges of minis for Epic check out this site, which was updated recently. Has the original stuff from different editions as well as proxy equivalents from other manufacturers that you can sub in
https://miniwars.co.uk/


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/03 18:26:09


Post by: JonWebb


 Pacific wrote:
MDG and JonWebb, you are legends both, many thanks

What kind of rates are the old Nid bits and pieces going for on the 'Bay? An alternative would be some of the Onslaught minis that were linked a few posts ago.

BTW if anyone is after ranges of minis for Epic check out this site, which was updated recently. Has the original stuff from different editions as well as proxy equivalents from other manufacturers that you can sub in
https://miniwars.co.uk/

Honestly, ridiculous prices :(

I’ve got pretty complete collections of all factions other than nids now. I got very lucky with a friend who gave some infantry ,but still missing most of the medium beasts and almost all the command stuff other than dominatrix and zero titans :(

3rd party is probably your safest bet for infantry these days, like you say, onslaught. For the bigger stuff, conversions from 40k parts or 3D printing is the best bet I guess.

If you want true gw minis for epic, then you need deep pockets :(


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/03 22:40:27


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Last year, I went on a mission to acquire every Rogue Trader era book. Managed it, with the original Chapter Approved being at once the most expensive, and least impressive of the bunch.


I picked up my copies of Realm Of Chaos about fifteen years ago, at a bring & buy, for a quid each.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 stonehorse wrote:
Big fan of the simplicity of 3rd edition 40k with just the lists from the core rule book, same for 6th edition WFB with just Ravening Hordes.

Less about gimmicks, and big flashy new models and more about grunts, and players making good choices on the table and not list building.


Yes, I agree - or 2nd edition with the black booklet, if you want a more detailed game of smaller conflicts. The simplicity of 3rd edition also gave you much more opportunity for modelling - adding a chainsword to a Space Marine made no difference to his effectiveness then, so you could give tactical marines close combat weapons with no effect on the rules so it didn't matter. Adding the Codex with its rules for auspexes, purity seals, and all the other paraphernalia that used to be simply decorative made it actually matter and thus harder to do.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/04 01:14:54


Post by: meatybtz


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Got that complete copy of Space Marine! Very excited by this.

I missed this one. Dude. Space Marine.. the epic scale Space Marine box?!?!

That is so awesome. I got that for Christmas on release. Oh man, the memories.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/04 08:12:56


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 meatybtz wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Got that complete copy of Space Marine! Very excited by this.

I missed this one. Dude. Space Marine.. the epic scale Space Marine box?!?!

That is so awesome. I got that for Christmas on release. Oh man, the memories.


The very same. Completely complete to boot!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/04 14:49:29


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


I've got an incomplete one with extras somewhere,

got to figure out what I have & what I dont


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/04 16:39:31


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Very nice.

That is of course the downside to GW’s former counter and template heavy rules. The bits are easily lost or damaged.

If I had a scanner, I’d probs go and make PDF files for the various bits and pieces for Epic. Not only for my own use, but as a top up resource for other players.

Only issue is where a fair few are double sided, getting the PDFs to line up all proper is quite beyond my meagre skills.

Hive War box and tokens set turned up today. Very nice, excellent condition. Book should be here soonish.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/04 18:20:32


Post by: JonWebb


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Very nice.

That is of course the downside to GW’s former counter and template heavy rules. The bits are easily lost or damaged.

If I had a scanner, I’d probs go and make PDF files for the various bits and pieces for Epic. Not only for my own use, but as a top up resource for other players.

Only issue is where a fair few are double sided, getting the PDFs to line up all proper is quite beyond my meagre skills.

Hive War box and tokens set turned up today. Very nice, excellent condition. Book should be here soonish.


Between the epic Facebook groups and the Net Epic site you can basically get scans of anything you need to play all four editions of the game, heck, I originally nabbed all the books off scribd before picking up the full run of hard copies.

So, save yourself a job and join us and everything you need is already there


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/07 23:21:57


Post by: Ielthan


SamusDrake wrote:Quite fond of the 3rd edition rules for Craftworlds. The Ulthwe council and Black Guardians were very awesome indeed.



My favourite 40k army ever! The seer council was surely the coolest 40k unit ever, sold my army a long time ago but currently slow growing an Eldar army based around that list.


stonehorse wrote:Big fan of the simplicity of 3rd edition 40k with just the lists from the core rule book, same for 6th edition WFB with just Ravening Hordes.

Less about gimmicks, and big flashy new models and more about grunts, and players making good choices on the table and not list building.



My favourite period of GW, loved the minis, the balance of fun and being a proper wargame, and most of all the glorious artwork.

I was always more of a fantasy player so loving that there's a growing and very vibrant 6th ed scene now and I was getting some games in pre covid, and even some via Universal Battle during lockdown. Shame that I can't seem to find anything like this for 40k, are there any groups playing 3rd/4th ed 40k in the UK? I know 2nd ed has had some revival, but though I started during 2nd, I was too young to really get into the gaming side of it.

I love the simplicity of that 3rd ed 40k 6th ed fantasy period, and the sheer quantity of content, and how easy it was to make narratives and scenarios, also had a good amount of depth with the character building. The incredible artwork, the hand sculpted perry twins minis, juan diaz & gary morley etc, in glorious metal too. I just loved it all.

8th and 9th edition just haven't grabbed me, I don't like the combat system at all, the neutering of the psychic phase, the smaller table size matched with bigger models, or the meta/feel, and of course, the annoying scale creep of the models. Also the changing objectives and points scoring (doesn't really allow for you to build your own narrative around a scenario), the insanely complex list building rules or gimmicky game mechanics; feels like you're playing a tabletop version of a video game, not a wargame.


Valkyrie wrote:Been playing since 4th, I do miss how customisable your guys were back then. Not just standard weapon upgrades but also basic wargear such as Bionics (6+ FNP) or Purity Seals, etc. Means you can really make "your guys" without having to just go for the same Relics.


Yes! GW realised that the to protect their IP they would have to make a model to match every single possible unit, which meant character customisation pretty much went out the window. It's why now they only release rules alongside models, or they'll put rules in white dwarf alongside a model release pre codex (at least this is what a senior GW manager explained to me a few years ago).


Just Tony wrote:Getting the old 3rd Ed. 40K books and 6th Ed. WFB books over again has been a real treat. Just wish getting some of those era's models were easier or cheaper to get. .


Me too! I've been rebuying old codexes and wfb army books from that period, so many of the models hold up so well, the artwork is so much better than the current digital stuff. Just wish 3rd ed would take off like the old edition of WFB have (there are big 4th/5th ed, 6th ed & 8th ed scenes still going for WFB, even have tournaments going with good attendance pre covid).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/07 23:58:38


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Valkyrie wrote:
Been playing since 4th, I do miss how customisable your guys were back then. Not just standard weapon upgrades but also basic wargear such as Bionics (6+ FNP) or Purity Seals, etc. Means you can really make "your guys" without having to just go for the same Relics.


I found that having rules and points costs for every single little thing made customisation harder - Before I could put some purity seals, an iron halo, etc, on a model to personalise it and I could do that freely. Now along comes a Codex with rules for all those things and now I have to be careful about doing that because now it matters in a game.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 10:57:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Got me thinking about early days equipment options.

That is a thread entirely unto itself, and not one I can presently be bothered to write.

But I am thinking of the old sources of invulnerable saves.

Relatively few models came with them by today’s standards. Off the top of my head, Eldar Farseers and Warlocks, Chaplains are the first I think of. But there will be others.

Everyone else had to go to the Wargear Cards. The number available depended on the ‘level’ of the character. The harder they were, the more they could take.

Fields came in four broad flavours. Refractor (5++), Conversion (4++), Displacer (3++) and Power Field (2++). And each had its own drawback.

Refractor meant you couldn’t Hide. Conversion Field caused a blind grenade effect, centred on the model making the save. This could blind friendly troops. Displacer Field scattered you randomly. Power Fields didn’t work in HTH.

I kinda miss that, especially given how ubiquitous invulnerable saves are nowadays. But it was more book keeping, so I can see why others might be glad to see the back of them


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 14:35:13


Post by: Horla


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Relatively few models came with them by today’s standards. Off the top of my head, Eldar Farseers and Warlocks, Chaplains are the first I think of. But there will be others.

Daemons were another. Imperial Assassins too. Possibly the Lictor had a dodge?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 15:08:03


Post by: Pacific


And Ragnar Blackmane I believe! You could dodge as long as the 2" took you outside of the area of effect (so wouldn't always work).

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I kinda miss that, especially given how ubiquitous invulnerable saves are nowadays. But it was more book keeping, so I can see why others might be glad to see the back of them


I think it worked in the context that you had much smaller miniature counts and games generally, so didn't have a massive amount to remember.

In terms of miniature numbers, for 2nd ed at least, it was probablly closer to a skirmish game of something like Necromunda than a modern game of 40k.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 15:45:47


Post by: StraightSilver


I have played every edition since Rogue Trader and there are some things I miss about the older editions.

Personal power fields being one but also the 2nd Edition rule that allowed swords to parry was also great.

I can't fully remember the old psychic rules for 2nd Edition but I seem to remember you had to secretly bid using power cards in your hand against your opponent? I also really liked that and meant you weren't always able to get your best powers off when you wanted to as your hand was drawn at random so you might not have the power cards you needed.

My fondest memories of 40K though were 4th/5th Edition, especially City Fight.

And I have very fond memories of the original Necromunda but I think the newest version is actually better to play.

I never really got into Epic but I hope they bring it back.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 16:03:18


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I suspect one of us was using House Rules for the psychic phase, but I’m not sure who (could be both).

My memory is you had the Power Deck. To generate cards, you rolled 2D6, and dished them out between the players, starting with who’s turn it was.

Your hand dealt, Power cards were used to, well, power your, erm...powers. Each had a target between 1 and 3.

I think there was some bidding, as your opponent could play Nullify cards, reducing your power build - so if you had 5 Power cards in your hand, and really wanted to cast that PL3 attack, you’d probably Chuck all 5 against it.

There were also ‘one per deck’ special cards. Ultimate Force (your chosen power was cast, and your opponent can’t block it), Drain Power (probably the wrong name, but effectively ended the phase) and I think Daemonic Attack, which caused wounds and possibly killed the casting psyker - I can’t recall if it also nullified the power being used?

I don’t recall blind bidding - but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t The Rules.

I think you also got bonus cards for each -shelf - whether it was total up their Power Level, or a D6 for each psyker beyond the first?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 16:35:10


Post by: Ielthan


StraightSilver wrote:
I have played every edition since Rogue Trader and there are some things I miss about the older editions.

Personal power fields being one but also the 2nd Edition rule that allowed swords to parry was also great.

I can't fully remember the old psychic rules for 2nd Edition but I seem to remember you had to secretly bid using power cards in your hand against your opponent? I also really liked that and meant you weren't always able to get your best powers off when you wanted to as your hand was drawn at random so you might not have the power cards you needed.

My fondest memories of 40K though were 4th/5th Edition, especially City Fight.

And I have very fond memories of the original Necromunda but I think the newest version is actually better to play.

I never really got into Epic but I hope they bring it back.


Cityfight was epic on a good table of terrain, 40k at it's absolute best imo. Incredibly fun and often close games, looked amazing and became totally immersive.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 18:03:11


Post by: A.T.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I suspect one of us was using House Rules for the psychic phase, but I’m not sure who (could be both).
I have the book here. It's been a while.

- Roll 1d6 per psyker (in total) and share the cards between the two players - no hording of cards by the psyker-heavy faction as in 6th and 7th.
- The cards were a mix of force, nullify, and special effect
- Players took turns to try and play powers, costing 1-3 force cards to use
- Nullify cards were just a flat 4+ to stop a power being cast or end an ongoing power. +1 or -1 if you had a higher or lower level (or no) psyker.

Special cards were daemonic attack (auto nullify, chance of killing psyker), destroy power (auto nullify, chance to remove power from hand), energy drain (end psychic phase, end all powers), psychic duel (dice off to remove powers), reflection (bounce powers), and ultimate force (auto cast, no nullify). A few of these could only be used by psykers.

Once up powers kept rolling until they were nullified.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 18:48:35


Post by: Easy E


I am getting old, but what edition was the Eye of Terror: Lost and the Damned from again?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/08 22:07:12


Post by: H.B.M.C.


3rd Edition.

Fantastic book. I miss my LatD.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/09 12:13:11


Post by: VBS


I think a few folks here might appreciate this. Fanzine that looks like the good ol' White Dwarf:

https://herohammer-fanzine.com/


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/09 14:34:16


Post by: Ielthan


VBS wrote:
I think a few folks here might appreciate this. Fanzine that looks like the good ol' White Dwarf:

https://herohammer-fanzine.com/


This is amazing!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/10 10:13:27


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


My copy of Hive War rule book shipped on Friday....I’m jonesing for it, man!

Never owned it before, and need to read all those rules and unit descriptions like....now!

I’m also seriously considering investing in a 3D resin printer. My mate’s one has my interest piqued.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/10 22:40:54


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m also seriously considering investing in a 3D resin printer. My mate’s one has my interest piqued.
Friend of mine has been printing some teeny tiny Wood Elf stuff recently. It looks pretty impressive given its size.

3D printing seems like the perfect thing for games on that scale.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/10 22:45:15


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Indeed. Tiny models print fast, and don’t require the resolution larger scales do.

But, the kit and kaboodle is around £500.

It’s not outside my pocket as such, but might wait for my annual bonus in June. Spesh as I’m rejigging the flat now I’ve got the spare room back, and as a result I bought a new sofa bed today.

The good news of course is like buying a new army, it’s pretty much a one-time cash sink. From there I will need supplies and the odd replacement part, but the main chunk of spending is all done.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/11 14:40:19


Post by: Pacific


It sounds like you have talked yourself into it right there MDG ..

I think they're great, for games like Epic especially. If you join some of the Epic FB groups there are tons of guys on there doing some mad projects, copies of the FW Heresy stuff, Admech armies and all sorts.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/11 14:55:42


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


First need to setup my hobby room/home office, and get that settled in.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/11 19:04:13


Post by: Captain Brown


Fan of the original Necromunda game rules (and Outlanders). Simple for the most part and easy to use. Made for a generic game where everyone had a good idea of the threats carried by other gangs. So very few points were a disagreement could start...which meant quick and enjoyable games.

Got my gaming buddies back on board as I repaint and rebuild the terrain for a campaign as soon as COVID ends. For pictures check out my Necromunda painting log.

My two cents,

CB


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/11 20:09:35


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’ve now received the Hive War rule book.

Had a quick flick through this afternoon, but planning an early night, so will have a good old read tonight whilst tucked up.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/11 21:34:35


Post by: H.B.M.C.


You should do a Kyoto-style review, going over the content with page scans and whatnot.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/12 19:01:34


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Sadly, I have no scanner :(

I am however considering a historical review type thread on GW army selection methods through the ages.

No real point to it, but figure people might be interested.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/13 00:01:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Sadly, I have no scanner :(

I am however considering a historical review type thread on GW army selection methods through the ages.

No real point to it, but figure people might be interested.
"Y'all have phones, right?" - Blizzard


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/14 07:09:50


Post by: PaddyMick


I remember my first game of 40k: Rogue Trader, at a GW shop. I was about ten years old. The table was green and had hills and woods, basically Fantasy Battle terrain.

It was 5 marines vs 8 orks from the plastic boxed sets, and they had printed some cheat sheets like this:
Orc with bolter - 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound, marine gets 4+ save. Heavy plasma gun - 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, no save.

In RT instead of an advance or march, you could do reserve move after the shooting phase if you did not shoot, and each model was an individual even if they were part of the squad. The staff showed us a trick to protect our heavy weapons: have two infantry stand in front of it, move out so it could shoot, then reserve move back in so the opponent could not shoot it back. I am sure this little ploy got nerfed later in the edition.

So I was hooked and bought the rulebook. We got together for our first game without me actually having read it, and struggled without the cheat sheets - in the equipment section, the weapons profiles didn't say what roll was needed to hit! But I carried that book everywhere with me and must have read it a hundred times. I recently picked a copy and was delighted to read it again.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/14 15:45:04


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I was set for going in to Rogue Trader, and I remember being in Brighton at the time.

Finding the shop was a bit of a sod (tiny, twisting lanes), but we got there in the end.

Sadly, perhaps fortunately, they weren’t selling RT, as 2nd Ed was just around the corner. Think we might’ve picked up some Genestealer Hybrids for Space Hulk instead.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/15 09:14:12


Post by: Sherrypie


Personally, I have a lot of love for stuff that's older than I am, in gaming as well as in other walks of life.

While I started 'Hammering with the 5th-6th edition change of Fantasy Battle as a kid, twenty years later I'm still grabbed by the sleek design of Space Hulk, sheer creativity of Rogue Trader and Realms of Chaos, loving the way current Titanicus incorporates elements from both the original AT'88 as well as BFG and so on. Collecting older White Dwarves and rules texts is a dear part of the hobby that gives both joy and a good library of design ideas for my own projects (currently brewing up a hybrid RPG with elements of Space Hulk, Rackham's Confrontation and Chaos Gate, as an example).

Diving deep into various forms of Epic is maybe the hottest thing at the moment, with Armageddon tickling the tactical fancy but the siren song of wilder ID / NetE megabattles is getting stronger...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/19 09:01:32


Post by: PaddyMick


A question for you Doc and anyone else who can help:

I am undecided about picking up a copy of the 1st ed Battle Manual for £50 off ebay. I used to own it but need reminding what is actually in it.

The purpose would be twofold: for the joy of the artwork etc, although I reckon a lot of this is replicated in the 2nd ed Battle Manual which I have already.

Also for the rules, when I get round to playing 1st ed again (I will be modifying the core rules anyway). How much is combat rules, and how much just a list of the guns?

Ta


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should say I have every White Dwarf from the era so don't need the Compendium etc, and have already decided against trying to use the Vehicle Manual in any way (although I would still love to own a copy if I ever find it at a reasonable price).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/19 09:28:04


Post by: Pacific


Hmm.. you know that's probably the book I know least about. I've had a read online and it sounds like the final Rogue Trader rules release and almost a proto 2nd-edition? i.e. most of the rules that are in there, and like you say the artwork and layout very similar to the core 2nd edition Battle Manual.

£50 doesn't sound like a bad price though as it looks like there have been copies going for a lot more! I wonder if it sold less at the time as people knew second edition was coming? I guess if you are trying to get a completionist set then it would make sense. If if its just for playing you could say it might pay just to get the 2nd ed. books if its a similar experience, and the core set rules are usually pretty cheap to get hold of.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/19 10:53:56


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 PaddyMick wrote:
A question for you Doc and anyone else who can help:

I am undecided about picking up a copy of the 1st ed Battle Manual for £50 off ebay. I used to own it but need reminding what is actually in it.

The purpose would be twofold: for the joy of the artwork etc, although I reckon a lot of this is replicated in the 2nd ed Battle Manual which I have already.

Also for the rules, when I get round to playing 1st ed again (I will be modifying the core rules anyway). How much is combat rules, and how much just a list of the guns?

Ta


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should say I have every White Dwarf from the era so don't need the Compendium etc, and have already decided against trying to use the Vehicle Manual in any way (although I would still love to own a copy if I ever find it at a reasonable price).


I’ll grab my copy!

Here’s the ingredients page.


[Thumb - 59DAE319-9480-4BF8-9B8E-78B006675AC1.jpeg]


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/19 18:20:59


Post by: PaddyMick


Thanks both, you have confirmed my suspicion that it's probably not worth it for me, cool as it would be to own a copy. The contents show 1/3 rules, many of which look like 2nd ed headers (parrying!) and 2/3 guns, but everything added since the RT core book was usually a weapon unique to a single unit.

Yeah 1st ed evolved sporadically and I think 2nd ed was really a tidy up, and a clean break from roleplaying, but the game had been heading in that direction since the first army list (I wanna say ultramarines?) - so like you say Pacific, once we get to this book, it's almost 2nd ed anyway.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/19 19:05:41


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


There are some differences.

Weapons lack tank armour penetration profiles, as it was D6+S, rather than the far more complex one of 2nd Ed (Lascannons were 3D6 if memory serves? Maybe 3D6+6).

HTH is the same, except multiple rolls of 6 didn’t increase your score. I suspect that was introduced to 2nd Ed because with 1’s reducing your score, having lots of attacks could easily become a liability.

I say grab it anyway, if only for sake of completeness


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/19 21:30:35


Post by: PaddyMick


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


I say grab it anyway, if only for sake of completeness


Aha! well now that's the thing isn't it... you can only have so many collections... my personal goal is issues 1-150(ish!) of White Dwarf... got about 100 so far, and £50 could buy me a very early issue or two.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/20 00:59:06


Post by: AndrewGPaul


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are some differences.

Weapons lack tank armour penetration profiles, as it was D6+S, rather than the far more complex one of 2nd Ed (Lascannons were 3D6 if memory serves? Maybe 3D6+6).

HTH is the same, except multiple rolls of 6 didn’t increase your score. I suspect that was introduced to 2nd Ed because with 1’s reducing your score, having lots of attacks could easily become a liability.

I say grab it anyway, if only for sake of completeness


Having just checked, the Battle Manual has a summary of armour penetration scores at the back; the full rules for that were in the Vehicle Manual which came along a few months later. The armour penetration value of a weapon was D6 + Strength + variable damage. So a lascannon with S 9 and 2D6 damage had an AP of 3D6 + 9. Second edition removed the two special attacks allowed against vehicles and gave close combat weapons a bonus die based on the strength of the weapon.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I managed to get a game of Epic Armageddon in the other night; my 1st edition-vintage Imperial Guard vs Space Marines. My presumably somewhat heretical Guardsmen were given a good shoeing by the Marines, with my infantry being driven out of the residential complex they were garrisoning by a detachment of Assault Marines.

Now I'm painting up some Eldar for a rematch, and trying to stay off Ebay ...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/20 09:48:46


Post by: Sherrypie


Armageddon is a great system for modern-ish war of fluid fronts, just had a game as well.

Tried out the EpicAU's 30k Mechanicum list against my brother who used my Death Guard legion, brutality ensued at the factory hub. While marines are fast and able to dictate where the hammer lands (like flying in some terminators that immediately busted my badly deployed Ordinatus), the sheer tenacity of the 50's killer robots and their endless rain of plasma mortar death kept the marines at bay until the bitter end where it turned out the XIV had lost too many men and beat a hasty retreat.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/20 18:59:02


Post by: Pacific


I definitely think marines got a power up between 2nd edition SM and Armageddon. Not only the armour saves (remember almost no infantry saves in SM!) but the blast marker resistance in armageddon makes them really survivable.

I wonder how much of it is because really the marines in 2nd edition SM were still the Rogue Trader-esque ones? I can't remember if 40k had switched marines from T3 to T4 by the time SM came out. They feel a lot more like the 'elite infantry+' in SM. You get the mobility from them all having rhino transports (which really is a massive advantage, you notice it in armies that don't have it) and the good morale factor, but the modest shooting and +2CAF isn't anything that special and they often get outclassed by other specialist infantry from other races.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/20 21:38:00


Post by: Sherrypie


I wouldn't really call marines all that survivable in EA, their infantry still dies in troves and there just isn't that much of it in the first place in my experience. What They Shall Know No Fear gives them just makes the battered remnants that they have after the madness of first engagements still act effectively, unlike regular troops who'll either be suppressed or just can't get their orders through. Combined with high initiative and good leaders that lets them keep the pressure up, but if the opposition doesn't yield to concentration of force the marines are going to bite the dust.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/03/21 13:29:23


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Which is right and proper. The times I've used Assault detachments, when I send them in unsupported against Imperial Guard infantry in buildings or against an Artillery company, they get gunned down by the defenders' firepower. On the other hand, if you shell the buildings first, make them all take cover and break up their defensive positions, you can storm in and butcher everyone with chainswords.

If you're using the tournament army lists, the infantry formations are smaller than Imperial Guard or Eldar, but they're more mobile and more resilient.

I quite fancy the idea of using EA rules but 2nd edition Epic army formations, for some really big games. My Imperial Guard army is all made up of 1st edition models. Looks cool, but sadly no-one has bothered to write an army list for "ordinary" Imperial Guard - just mechanised, armoured or siege regiments so I can't field a supreme command detachment despite having a cool idea for a command staff base.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/09 14:35:04


Post by: Pacific


Does anyone have any recollection of Advanced Space Crusade?

I can (very) vaguely remember playing some games in a store in the early 90s. Extremely gaudy looking board pieces but fairly detailed rules from memory, interesting in that it used a D12. And of course you had those awesome 80s looking scouts (which seemed to hang around for a long time) with the Bros style haircuts and earrings.

Got a chance to get hold of a copy for sensible money and wondering if its worth it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There are some differences.
Weapons lack tank armour penetration profiles, as it was D6+S, rather than the far more complex one of 2nd Ed (Lascannons were 3D6 if memory serves? Maybe 3D6+6).
HTH is the same, except multiple rolls of 6 didn’t increase your score. I suspect that was introduced to 2nd Ed because with 1’s reducing your score, having lots of attacks could easily become a liability.
I say grab it anyway, if only for sake of completeness


Remember the close combat results in 2nd edition were so variable! But quite good fun, I liked the feel of the individual 'duel' that happened when you had a couple of miniatures meeting up in combat, how some of the special rules played into that etc.it felt a lot more cinematic and less abstract as your Sergeant blocked a falling Goff axe with his chainsword, only to be blasted by another's pistol.
It worked well in the smaller size games of the days (and consequently in Necromunda too) but as the model count went up needed to be streamlined, so can understand why they made the changes they did in 3rd/4th edition onwards.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/09 14:59:35


Post by: PaddyMick


@pacific, I owned and played to death Space Crusade but never made it to Advanced. Best thing about it was the clip-in guns so you could change your load-out for each mission.

Bros scouts lol - I remember that boxed set with 'nids, scouts and maybe termies? for 40k, I think I had some bits out of that from a mate.

@the society
Wargames Illustrated is good for nostalgia this month as it's their 400th issue. HIstorical mostly but warhammer is mentioned a few times, and there's a discussion of old and new game mechanics which I found interesting. There's an article by Rick Preistly who is always good value.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/09 17:57:58


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Advanced Space Crusade is what became Tyranid Attack, the first GW game I bought.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/09 23:04:23


Post by: jeff white


If I had a stable home then I would buy old editions and collect them. I had had RT, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Lots of books. About ten years of WD. All that was lost. Now I have much of the 2nd Ed and RT stuff in PDF but it isn’t the same as the old books.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/10 06:01:10


Post by: Racerguy180


Yeah, I'd much rather leaf thru an old book than a PDF any day.

For myself, there is something familiar about looking thru RT or STD and it makes me feel good. Memberberries are great.

A PDF is a great way to aquire information but actually turning a page is a manual of arms that I like.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/10 17:36:36


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Advanced Space Crusade was an odd game, by the standards of the other games around at the time. While Advanced Heroquest was just that - another dungeon-bash game with more rules - ASC wasn't just a fiddlier version of Space Crusade. Rather than a game of ASC being a single mission into a hiveship, you were playing out an entire assault - the Space Marine player was responsible for controlling three different assaults, each with leading and trailing waves, and reserves to commit to any assault as required.

Rather like WHQ: Blackstone Fortress, a single game would include multiple different tactical combat sessions as you search for the vital organs* of the hiveship, and encountered the defending Tyranids as they awake from stasis. Tyranid Attack reduced that strategic element in favour of a more simple tactical game.

The game came with three squads of Space Marine scouts and six Tyranid Warriors, but included rules in the force list for just about every Space Marine infantry squad and character available at that time, and also Genestealers, Hybrids and Chaos Marine and Ork mind slaves for the Tyranids. White Dwarf added rules for Orks and Imperial Guard assault forces instead of Marines.

* including it's anus, to much sniggering.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/10 17:58:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Do we have any particular fans of Blood Bowl in here?

I’ve a copy of the Companion and Star Players, complete with the cards.

I’m not really that into Blood Bowl, so happy to move them on


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/11 12:11:45


Post by: Pacific


Is that for the current version MDG?

I still play with all of the original stuff, just because I had some custom pitches (that weren't cheap) and in grognard fashion don't want to replace my range rulers!

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Advanced Space Crusade was an odd game, by the standards of the other games around at the time. While Advanced Heroquest was just that - another dungeon-bash game with more rules - ASC wasn't just a fiddlier version of Space Crusade. Rather than a game of ASC being a single mission into a hiveship, you were playing out an entire assault - the Space Marine player was responsible for controlling three different assaults, each with leading and trailing waves, and reserves to commit to any assault as required.

Rather like WHQ: Blackstone Fortress, a single game would include multiple different tactical combat sessions as you search for the vital organs* of the hiveship, and encountered the defending Tyranids as they awake from stasis. Tyranid Attack reduced that strategic element in favour of a more simple tactical game.

The game came with three squads of Space Marine scouts and six Tyranid Warriors, but included rules in the force list for just about every Space Marine infantry squad and character available at that time, and also Genestealers, Hybrids and Chaos Marine and Ork mind slaves for the Tyranids. White Dwarf added rules for Orks and Imperial Guard assault forces instead of Marines.

* including it's anus, to much sniggering.


That sounds pretty cool actually. I remember that it was more of a wargame in that you had a points value for different units (and could have 'mind slaves' as the Tyranid player, and chuck pretty much any miniature you had into the game as a result, Orks etc)

I would love to get hold of some RT-era marines, painted up in suitably gaudy colours (to go with the tile pieces) and play the game just using them.

About the last point, was just looking at the sphincter doors! Ah to have a young and naiive mind, can't remember thinking anything of those at the time


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/11 14:47:21


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Nah, for 2nd Ed, I think? Maybe 3rd.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/11 22:11:58


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Looking through my ASC rulebook, the Tyranid force list included Warriors with deathspitters or paired boneswords, Zoats, Genestealers, Hunter-Slayers (what are now Termagants with fleshborers) and Grabber-Slashers (in the 1991 catalogue as the "Big Squig" with a huge claw out the top of its head). Ten there were Genestealer Hybrids using the same selection of weapons as in Space Hulk, and then the mind-slaves - Orks with bolters, Gretchin with flintlock rifles and a Chaos Space Marine squad. the mind-slaves were clearly a way to use the Orks, Gretchin and Chaos Marines from Space Crusade.

The Advanced Rules section allows you to use the blips and board tiles from Space Hulk, and a suggestion to use Chaos SPace Marines instead of proper Loyalist ones. Basically the only difference is that you get to add the Androids and Dreadnought from Space Crusade to the Marine force list.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/12 09:27:05


Post by: Pacific


Interesting stuff. There was definitely a different type of character to the Tyranid stuff back then. It felt a lot more creepy (I think that's the term I would use). As though whoever had done the design work had recently watched The Thing and think there was a bit of Alien/facehugger and body horror in there too. Contrast with the more modern representation of Nids, as a heaving wave of chitin and fangs charging forward to overwhelm and rip to pieces. No less terrifying, but I think a different type of concept.

There was an awful lot of quite disturbing imagery I seem to recall, people being absorbed into walls or the floor and having tentacles wrapped around them. I think a lot of it was some of the earlier Adrian Smith black and white work as well, so in technical terms really well done. Will have a look around and see what I can find..


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/12 14:18:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I disagree.

Tyranids were a half-realised idea that took a bunch of models from a different range (Genestealer Cults) and then added in even more minis from other ranges (the "Mind Slaves") to bulk up their numbers.

I have the issue of WD where they were given their first Rogue Trader/1st Ed army list and there are, as we know them today, only 4 actual Tyranid units (Warriors, Termagants, Carnifexes and Genestealers). Everything else, from Brood Brothers to Squigs (of all things), now belong to someone else, or simply aren't part of the game anymore (the aforementioned "Mind Slaves").


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/12 14:34:08


Post by: Pacific


Sorry that wasn't written very clearly, I was referring to the artwork/style rather than the miniatures specifically - I know there were only a handful of sculpts available back then (and obviously didn't sell many, going on the price I have just seen on eBay for one of the tiny metal Nid/spider things).

So if you have a look at some of the art around the time of ASC there is a pretty gross organic/absorption and body-horror style running through a lot of it. Remember it very strongly as it really gave me the creeps as a kid! Not that the later stuff doesn't, but there is something worse about having a giant spider/flesh sack use it's proboscis to start going down the back of your shirt...



Perhaps not the best example, there was a lot more of this kind of stuff, will have a look through some old WDs.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/12 15:28:15


Post by: H.B.M.C.


That artwork is all through the Tyranid Attack book (which makes sense given where that game came from originally), and you're right, there are some creepy critters in those pictures between all the Warriors and Genestealers. The Tyranid stuff in there is loads of fun, and even has concepts for things that wouldn't see the light of day for many years (like Gargoyles).



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/12 19:33:12


Post by: Illumini


 Pacific wrote:
Sorry that wasn't written very clearly, I was referring to the artwork/style rather than the miniatures specifically - I know there were only a handful of sculpts available back then (and obviously didn't sell many, going on the price I have just seen on eBay for one of the tiny metal Nid/spider things).

So if you have a look at some of the art around the time of ASC there is a pretty gross organic/absorption and body-horror style running through a lot of it. Remember it very strongly as it really gave me the creeps as a kid! Not that the later stuff doesn't, but there is something worse about having a giant spider/flesh sack use it's proboscis to start going down the back of your shirt...



Perhaps not the best example, there was a lot more of this kind of stuff, will have a look through some old WDs.


Landsknecht mohawk space marines! Now I want to make a squad


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/12 23:12:36


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Well those were the original scouts. They had that mohawk.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/13 00:41:48


Post by: Cryonicleech


Recently, a couple of my friends have convinced me to look at 2nd edition 40k, and a year later I've found myself completely down the metal mini rabbit-hole.

Initially, the similarity to the Warhammer Fantasy rules was what drew me in (I had fond memories of playing 7th ed. WHFB, despite my low points level/hobby skills). But what really keeps me engaged is just the feel of 2nd Ed.

While Rogue Trader was probably too clunky to have a decent amount of models, 2nd has the right amount of crunch and scale that it suits my gaming needs. While it is much more complicated, I enjoy the extra granularity, and I understand a bit more of the "beer and pretzels" mentality. I very much doubt anyone would claim 2nd Ed. to be balanced, but it feels like balance was sort of missing the point.

2nd Edition seems to be right at the point where GW was gearing up for larger games than Rogue Trader, but still trying to focus on playing for narrative or fun, rather than the current emphasis on tournament play. While 9th is likely to be much better in that regard, playing 2nd feels a bit more fun to me. It's less about the result of the game, or how the result is derived, and more on the process of exploring the setting and worlds which GW had created with 40k.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/13 01:32:24


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Well, you say that, but wait until you get into a big HTH combat situation that involves more than 2 squads.

There's a reason why 2nd Ed's rules were perfected when they applied them to Necromunda.





Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/13 03:24:04


Post by: Argive


All Hail 3rd edition hive tyrant. Hail!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/13 21:03:18


Post by: jeff white


 Cryonicleech wrote:
Recently, a couple of my friends have convinced me to look at 2nd edition 40k, and a year later I've found myself completely down the metal mini rabbit-hole.

Initially, the similarity to the Warhammer Fantasy rules was what drew me in (I had fond memories of playing 7th ed. WHFB, despite my low points level/hobby skills). But what really keeps me engaged is just the feel of 2nd Ed.

While Rogue Trader was probably too clunky to have a decent amount of models, 2nd has the right amount of crunch and scale that it suits my gaming needs. While it is much more complicated, I enjoy the extra granularity, and I understand a bit more of the "beer and pretzels" mentality. I very much doubt anyone would claim 2nd Ed. to be balanced, but it feels like balance was sort of missing the point.

2nd Edition seems to be right at the point where GW was gearing up for larger games than Rogue Trader, but still trying to focus on playing for narrative or fun, rather than the current emphasis on tournament play. While 9th is likely to be much better in that regard, playing 2nd feels a bit more fun to me. It's less about the result of the game, or how the result is derived, and more on the process of exploring the setting and worlds which GW had created with 40k.


Exalted for eloquence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well, you say that, but wait until you get into a big HTH combat situation that involves more than 2 squads.

There's a reason why 2nd Ed's rules were perfected when they applied them to Necromunda.




Tweaks.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/15 08:36:40


Post by: Zenithfleet


Regarding RT era Tyranids: There's a short story by Ian Watson from late 1st ed about Scouts infiltrating a hive ship that has some disturbing imagery in it. (And we all know Ian Watson can't describe a chair without making you want to take a shower.) Victims who have been impregnated with larvae in Aliens 'kill meee' style, and so on.

But I generally agree with HBMC:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Tyranids were a half-realised idea that took a bunch of models from a different range (Genestealer Cults) and then added in even more minis from other ranges (the "Mind Slaves") to bulk up their numbers.


From what I gather, it was none other than Epic Hive War that finally kicked the Tyranids into high gear, detailing all the bio-tanks and now-classic infantry like Hormagaunts and generally making them a cohesive galactic force. Well, that's what Andy Chambers said at the time anyway. 2nd ed Codex Tyranids for 40K followed shortly afterward.

The model designs themselves stayed wonderfully varied and creepy for years afterward, even into 3rd. I never really liked it when Jes Goodwin unified the look of the whole range in 4th edition. The older models were much more diverse, like an entire space-going ecology. Looking back at the 2nd ed 40K and Epic ranges, the little toothy wormy Rippers looked totally different to the infantry, which looked totally different to the slug-like 'tanks', which looked nothing like the spidery Bio-Titans, and so on... but they did all look as if they'd evolved on the same planet and had all decided to come across space to eat you. Very War against the Chtorr.

Post-4th, the Tyranids look more like one hundred different breeds of alien dog. As if there's just one ancestral species that has engineered itself into every other form. Which is fine as an aesthetic and background choice, but I prefer the older 'entire predatory biosphere that invades and eats other biospheres' feel.

But getting back on topic while sticking with Tyranids: The old-school item I've been chasing for a while now is the Doom of the Eldar boardgame. The third in the cardboard-counter 'Wargame Series' (the first two being Battle for Armageddon and Horus Heresy).

DotE was about Iyanden Craftworld getting nibbled on by the Nids, and it features lots of 1st edition gribblies, including possibly the best forgotten Tyranid creature ever: the Protoid! Like the Blob, but Tyranidified!

For some reason Doom of the Eldar is a lot more pricey on the secondhand market than the first two. But having played a friend's copy, I don't really think the game itself is good enough to justify the asking prices. What do the knowledgeable folks here reckon--how does DotE compare to the other two in the series?

Anyway, anyone interested in the old-school stuff could do worse than to check out the Wargame Series games. Be warned they had their share of typos and errors (including the combat table in BfA).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/15 09:30:18


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Yeah, it was the Hive War stuff that brought Tyranids into focus for the first time. It's where staples of the game now like H-Gaunts, Gargoyles and Lictors got their start, and where things like Hive Tyrants were finally pinned down with a real look and menace to them (2nd Ed had rules for them, but that was it).

You're right there there was a bigger emphasis on worm-like (and slug-like) things that dominated the Tyranid 'tanks', but thanks to Jes bringing everything back to a singular core concept, we now have a number of those Epic creatures reimagined into forms that fit the Tyranid aesthetic (Trygons, Haruspex and, my personal fav from the Epic days, the Exocrine).

And I love my 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex. Fantastic book.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/15 12:04:13


Post by: Zenithfleet



 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're right there there was a bigger emphasis on worm-like (and slug-like) things that dominated the Tyranid 'tanks', but thanks to Jes bringing everything back to a singular core concept, we now have a number of those Epic creatures reimagined into forms that fit the Tyranid aesthetic (Trygons, Haruspex and, my personal fav from the Epic days, the Exocrine).


Well, as noted, I see that reimagining as unnecessarily constraining. I liked the older variety and felt it fit the Tyranid aesthetic just fine. It felt like an entire planet's worth of species was attacking. The Earth equivalent would be not only humans but lizards, spiders, hagfish, cassowaries, blue whales, viruses and slime moulds all united by a single consciousness, out to conquer the galaxy together.

(Again, I don't know if David Gerrold's War against the Chtorr series was among the inspirations for Andy C's take on the Tyranids, but those books feel very much like a depiction of a slow-motion Tyranid invasion. Especially book 4.)

Jes's visual revamp feels more like the equivalent of humans engineering themselves into flying people, mole people, crab people, etc. and filling the roster that way. One species diversifying into a hundred niches. It makes the Nids more like a single 'race', which to me is less alien or interesting.



The integrated weapons were a much better idea than the living swords / guns they used to carry around, though. And we can definitely agree that the Exocrine was the coolest of the old slug-tanks.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And I love my 2nd Ed Tyranid Codex. Fantastic book.


My first Codex! Read it so often the cover's almost come off.

"If only we could befriend these creatures, think what we could learn from them--" [REDACTED BY IMPERIAL ORDER]



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/16 07:56:02


Post by: Pacific


I remember that 2nd ed Nid codex being so nasty! Think I got flattened by them every time I played a game against them..

Zenithfleet wrote:
Regarding RT era Tyranids: There's a short story by Ian Watson from late 1st ed about Scouts infiltrating a hive ship that has some disturbing imagery in it. (And we all know Ian Watson can't describe a chair without making you want to take a shower.) Victims who have been impregnated with larvae in Aliens 'kill meee' style, and so on.



Ah I think you mean the section in the Space Marine novel. Where the three main protagonists (I think they have been advanced to full marines by this point) are amongst a vanguard that have landed on the Alien ship.

Quite cool in the way that the ship is asleep and not really aware of their presence, and there are remains of unknown (non-Tyranid) species inside. Then poor Biff, who thunks too much, realises that the Zoat 'ambassador'(!)they have encountered (and they are speaking to) is actually trying to play for time so the rest of the ship can wake up!

Quite interesting how much of that has been subsequently ret-conned back into the background (the Zoat for example)


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/16 07:59:50


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Pretty sure I’ve got that novel somewhere. Really should read it at some point.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/16 11:18:18


Post by: Pacific


Sorry man - spoilers!

Definitely think that book is one of the strongest narrative influences on what 'modern' space marines became. Really, I don't think there is anything in the book that stands out now as apocryphal in terms of background that no longer fits (there is maybe one bit in terms of one of the opponents they face - I won't spoil it for you MDG if you don't know as it's brilliant and you will chuckle ) It's certainly not bolter porn by any means, and as the story tracks the main protagonists from joining a chapter and through their career it actually gets inside the heads of the marines and makes them a lot more relatable.

I think probably the best Ian Watson book, I enjoyed the Inquisitor trilogy but thought it tailed off with Chaos Child.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/16 12:23:40


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Pacific wrote:
Then poor Biff, who thunks too much, realises that the Zoat 'ambassador'(!)they have encountered (and they are speaking to) is actually trying to play for time so the rest of the ship can wake up!
Isn't that when the Zoat rips poor Biff's head off?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/16 13:03:54


Post by: Pacific


SPOILERS MAN!! (MDG hasn't read it yet.. ) But yes..


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/16 14:25:47


Post by: H.B.M.C.


There's a statute of limitations on spoilers.

If he finds out spoilers from a 28 year old book, then that's kinda on him.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 07:52:39


Post by: Zenithfleet




Pacific wrote:I remember that 2nd ed Nid codex being so nasty! Think I got flattened by them every time I played a game against them..


I only got in a few games of 2nd ed before 3rd arrived, so my main memory of 2nd ed Tyranids is the amazing talent of my Hive Tyrant at landing venom cannon scatter shots on the Warrior brood to his left instead of the Marines he was aiming at.

To this day I still think of the Thudd Gun template as an essential part of basic 2nd ed kit, as important as dice, range rulers and the cardboard Ork Dreadnaught that can't be hit if you turn it sideways.

Great fluff in that book though. The whole opening section especially--it starts quietly, with odd reports of lifeless worlds out on the fringe that nobody bothers to worry about, until the slow realisation of a curious Inquisitor that the galaxy is in Big Trouble.

Pacific wrote:
Zenithfleet wrote:
Regarding RT era Tyranids: There's a short story by Ian Watson from late 1st ed about Scouts infiltrating a hive ship that has some disturbing imagery in it. (And we all know Ian Watson can't describe a chair without making you want to take a shower.) Victims who have been impregnated with larvae in Aliens 'kill meee' style, and so on.



Ah I think you mean the section in the Space Marine novel. Where the three main protagonists (I think they have been advanced to full marines by this point) are amongst a vanguard that have landed on the Alien ship.

Quite cool in the way that the ship is asleep and not really aware of their presence, and there are remains of unknown (non-Tyranid) species inside. Then poor Biff, who thunks too much, realises that the Zoat 'ambassador'(!)they have encountered (and they are speaking to) is actually trying to play for time so the rest of the ship can wake up!

Quite interesting how much of that has been subsequently ret-conned back into the background (the Zoat for example)


That's probably it. I read an excerpt in White Dwarf around the 160s or so.

The Zoat business reminds me of the 1982 Bruce Sterling story 'Swarm', in which the mindless alien bugs instinctively grow an intelligent, self-aware variant just to deal with the pesky humans who are meddling with their hive, and then presumably reabsorb it once its job is done.

There's some RT-era Tyranid fluff I've never managed to track down, about the attack on the Galactic Luxor and so on. I first saw it in BFG Magazine in 3rd ed, but it left me scratching my head wondering where and when it was first published--it had that 'old recycled fluff' style to it rather than newly written material.


H.B.M.C. wrote:There's a statute of limitations on spoilers.

If he finds out spoilers from a 28 year old book, then that's kinda on him.


His sled sinks at the end when he finds out they were all in it together and the river to paradise is a lie, but at least he didn't kill his kids because she was a clay pot all along.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 07:55:25


Post by: Horla


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
There's a statute of limitations on spoilers.

If he finds out spoilers from a 28 year old book, then that's kinda on him.

Remind me of that if you ever sit down to read a murder mystery. Spoiler tags are not hard to use.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 12:40:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


You must be fun at parties.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 13:19:20


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’ve had the book for around 8 years, so I deserve the Spoilers!

Actually found it at work’s book exchange, so got it for free.

Reckon I’ll give it a read soon though, then look to pass it on. Feel free to call dibs!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 17:15:31


Post by: Olthannon


The last time I really regularly played 40k was 4th edition, I played a couple of games of 5th edition but that was it. So I have zero frames of reference and I've jumped back into 9th with the crusade thing.
I really enjoyed Fall of Medusa, I wish they would consider doing something like that alongside the new edition. Seems like a smart way to rocket out of covid.

I think what I liked so much with 3rd was you only needed the codex and the rules. I feel like now there's a lot going on with various supplements and gork knows what else.
And with that whole global pandemic thing I've yet to play a game of 9th.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 18:14:52


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Ian Watson's a better writer than that - the book's still great the second time round. Also, that sequence (which begins with Biff exulting that "We're going in through its anus!"; Ian Watson loves his bodily functions imagery, and who doesn't like the idea of an Imperial Fists suppository) is basically what happens in a game of Advanced Space Crusade.

I was going to argue that it was 2nd edition Codex Tyranids that introduced all the other subspecies (Termagants, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Lictors), but that came out five months after the Epic Hive War supplement. Obviously the development would have been in parallel, so worrying which one came first is a bit pointless.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/17 20:09:34


Post by: PaddyMick


 Pacific wrote:
bolter porn


where can i get some of this please?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 04:44:14


Post by: Sherrypie


 PaddyMick wrote:
 Pacific wrote:
bolter porn


where can i get some of this please?


4chan naturally has a multitude of threads on the subject, both literal and figurative, depending on your needs and willingness to suffer


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 05:04:09


Post by: Zenithfleet


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Ian Watson's a better writer than that - the book's still great the second time round. Also, that sequence (which begins with Biff exulting that "We're going in through its anus!"; Ian Watson loves his bodily functions imagery, and who doesn't like the idea of an Imperial Fists suppository) is basically what happens in a game of Advanced Space Crusade.


Despite the fluff not always fitting with later editions, some of those early GW stories hold up much better as stories than later Black Library efforts... probably because in those days the fiction was contracted out to established sf/fantasy writers who had already made a name elsewhere. They didn't always 'get' the 40K universe (although Watson generally did), but they knew how to tell a good yarn.

(Did you know they almost had Tanith Lee writing Warhammer fiction? Imagine the Slaanesh we could have had!)

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I was going to argue that it was 2nd edition Codex Tyranids that introduced all the other subspecies (Termagants, Hormagaunts, Gargoyles, Lictors), but that came out five months after the Epic Hive War supplement. Obviously the development would have been in parallel, so worrying which one came first is a bit pointless.


Yes, IIRC Andy Chambers was the head honcho for both Epic Hive War and the 2nd ed Codex. It was effectively all one big project to give the Nids a kick in the nads and properly flesh them out. (Something the Squats never got.)

Interesting tidbit from that release period: The Studio's painted Epic and 40K Tyranids were painted in a red colour scheme--a revised version of the RT era scheme (without the funky blue and yellow head crests on the Warriors). At least one 'Eavy Metal page showing off the painted models claimed that the red skin tones of the creatures indicated that Tyranids may have originated on a planet with a dimmer, redder sun than Earth's.

Of course, that bit of background soon fell by the wayside once other colour schemes were introduced. But it's another interesting hint of influence from Gerrold's Chtorr series that I hadn't noticed until now. In those books the invading alien fauna and flora has a pinkish-red hue. Earth scientists speculate that they come from a planet orbiting a red dwarf star. Because such stars last much longer than Sun-type yellow dwarfs, the scientists propose that the invading ecosystem is hundreds of millions of years older than Earth's, giving it an evolutionary advantage. (Whether that last bit makes any sense I'll leave to the actual evolutionary biologists.)


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 07:33:21


Post by: Horla


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You must be fun at parties.

I am. I don’t ruin books and movies on people who haven’t read or seen them. It’s a good way of not killing conversations like you just have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zenithfleet wrote:
(Did you know they almost had Tanith Lee writing Warhammer fiction? Imagine the Slaanesh we could have had!)

That would have been amazing, and you’d wonder what it would have done for spreading interest in Warhammer in the early days.

I remember that fact about the red star/skin but the changes in skin colour were always easily explained by the fact that Tyranids were meant to be hyper-fast (and directed!) in how they mutated. If they needed venom sacs, they evolved venom sacs. If blue skin was more advantageous, they turned blue. And I think some of the colour schemes in the Eavy Metal section in 2nd Ed showed some alternative colour schemes?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 12:34:44


Post by: Zenithfleet


 Horla wrote:

Zenithfleet wrote:
(Did you know they almost had Tanith Lee writing Warhammer fiction? Imagine the Slaanesh we could have had!)

That would have been amazing, and you’d wonder what it would have done for spreading interest in Warhammer in the early days.


I had a 'citation needed' moment after my earlier post, and had to go find the article by Stephen Baxter talking about the various writers contacted for early GW fiction. (Terry Pratchett was another near-miss.) It's preserved here:
https://pariedolia.weebly.com/nimh/oldhammer-lit-101

Ironically, given what I said before about established writers, some authors (e.g. Nicola Griffith) said the work-for-hire experience helped them develop their skills.

Now I want to see Nicola Griffith write an Adeptus Titanicus novel about Legio Solaria.


 Horla wrote:
I remember that fact about the red star/skin but the changes in skin colour were always easily explained by the fact that Tyranids were meant to be hyper-fast (and directed!) in how they mutated. If they needed venom sacs, they evolved venom sacs. If blue skin was more advantageous, they turned blue. And I think some of the colour schemes in the Eavy Metal section in 2nd Ed showed some alternative colour schemes?


Yep, I think it was a good thing they dropped the 'officially red' idea quick smart, for the reasons you give. It's just an interesting hint about where some of GW's inspiration for the Tyranids came from. Everyone talks about Aliens and The Thing and so on, but the poor old Chtorrans always get ignored. (Most likely because those books have been out of print for decades AFAIK.)

 Horla wrote:
And I think some of the colour schemes in the Eavy Metal section in 2nd Ed showed some alternative colour schemes?


I just had a look through the 2nd ed Codex and couldn't find any suggested alternative paint schemes. I'm pretty sure Tyranids were presented as red throughout 2nd edition, apart from the purple Hormagaunts and Genestealers and some multicoloured experimentation on a few things like the Hive Tyrant. To be more accurate, the Studio army was about half red--creatures derived from the older RT-era ones like Termagants and Carnifexes--and half purple ('stealers, Hormagaunts, Lictor, Biovore). The two schemes were combined on the Tyrant.

In those days the armies showcased in Codexes and in White Dwarf were usually the Studio ones, barring the occasional 'my tournament army' or 'GW staffer interview' article. I don't remember much about the Nids in the 'how to paint Warhammer armies' book either, apart from a suggestion that you use lots of bright colours.

The Studio did a new purple-and-black army for early 3rd ed. Then their army for the 3rd ed Codex had a tan-with-red-plates scheme (but plenty of alternative suggestions in the Codex). 4th ed had them pale purple/white with dark purple plates. But by then it was very much a case of "paint 'em however you like--all the hive fleets are different".

Oddly, the skin colour thing went in the opposite direction to the WFB Lizardmen, who had no particular scheme in 5th ed, but were later officially made 'the blue guys'.

I liked how later fluff preserved the various older Studio colour schemes as linked to specific hive fleets. So Behemoth was later established as the red ones, and so on. In the same way, they canonised older model sculpts (clumsily wielding bio-swords and whatnot) as earlier stages in the Tyranids' evolution that were being refined as the fleets got to grips with the local galaxy. It was a nice touch.

Someone in the Studio during the Epic 40,000 launch--Warwick Kinrade?--came up with the idea of painting an occasional albino gaunt among the swarms of reddish 6mm critters, which looked pretty cool.

I painted my own 2nd ed Nids red. Then I over-painted them purple but gave up halfway. (I was 14 and knew nothing of strippi... er... removing paint). Then I decided I didn't like either of those schemes and tried to redo them dark brown with bone plates, but ran out of Chestnut Ink wash and couldn't get more (not knowing Coat d'Arms existed). By that point the Genestealers had so many layers of paint on them they looked cocooned. And so on in that fashion until I made such a mess of my beloved first army that I've never managed to go back and sort it out properly.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 18:13:07


Post by: Gitkikka


Loved 2nd Ed. 40k. Probably played it the most out of all editions, including Rogue Trader - and we played the HELL out of RT. Guess I love the "crunchier" systems.
Having said that, 3rd Ed. WHFB was not my favorite. I like it fine, but for some reason 6th held my heart (probably because I had a rather successful O&G army during it's run).


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 20:44:21


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Horla wrote:
I am. I don’t ruin books and movies on people who haven’t read or seen them. It’s a good way of not killing conversations like you just have.
Wow. You really didn't get that we were kidding around, did you?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 21:51:27


Post by: Rihgu


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Horla wrote:
I am. I don’t ruin books and movies on people who haven’t read or seen them. It’s a good way of not killing conversations like you just have.
Wow. You really didn't get that we were kidding around, did you?


TBF, it's an internet forum, where tone is already hard to pick up on, and according to their country flag they may be English as a Second Language. Their earnest may be forgivable, here


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/18 23:21:14


Post by: Just Tony


 Gitkikka wrote:
Loved 2nd Ed. 40k. Probably played it the most out of all editions, including Rogue Trader - and we played the HELL out of RT. Guess I love the "crunchier" systems.
Having said that, 3rd Ed. WHFB was not my favorite. I like it fine, but for some reason 6th held my heart (probably because I had a rather successful O&G army during it's run).


I still play 6th WFB, my last game was actually today with a random person I met through reddit. Too bad you aren't near Indiana...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/19 07:44:37


Post by: Pacific


Yes it was just a bit of fun but is hard to pick up tone on a forum

MDG - just need a small mind-scrub/few pints of something to remove the spoiler on the last page

Zenithfleet - some great little titbits there.

Yes with the colouring was looking through some old WDs (around the release of Adv Space Crusade, when the Tyranid Warrior plastic kit was released) and there were some really weird colour schemes; yellows, whites, greens. Also what definitely looked to be Tyranid squigs, I'm not sure if there was ever cross-over with Orks there or they just looked similar? (Basically a monster base covered in small gribblies)

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Ian Watson's a better writer than that - the book's still great the second time round. Also, that sequence (which begins with Biff exulting that "We're going in through its anus!"; Ian Watson loves his bodily functions imagery, and who doesn't like the idea of an Imperial Fists suppository) is basically what happens in a game of Advanced Space Crusade.


I had read that the...

MDG look away now!

.. buttock tattoo scene apparently got filtered by the editors who asked that Watson remove it, but then apparently ignored it at a subsequent pass so it ended up being printed in the final version. I can't remember that being particularly inappropriate so not sure why it would have been removed!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/19 08:26:55


Post by: Zenithfleet


 Pacific wrote:

Zenithfleet - some great little titbits there.

Yes with the colouring was looking through some old WDs (around the release of Adv Space Crusade, when the Tyranid Warrior plastic kit was released) and there were some really weird colour schemes; yellows, whites, greens. Also what definitely looked to be Tyranid squigs, I'm not sure if there was ever cross-over with Orks there or they just looked similar? (Basically a monster base covered in small gribblies)


Ah, that explains it. Rogue Trader era Tyranid colour schemes are a bit of a mystery to me. In fact a lot of RT-era stuff is a mystery to me. Shrouded in mist and legend like the Horus Heresy. Or at least how the HH used to be...

OTOH I did get my first intro to the Tyranids via whatever that White Dwarf issue was with Heroquest and Space Crusade in it. (Someone at school lent it to me after I found out that the Genestealers in Space Crusade, which I thought were the absolute coolest aliens ever, had a whole alien army to go with them.) That was published in 1st ed, so I do still sometimes think of Carnifexes as Screamer-Killers with the weird little chevrons painted on their heads and love the original plastic Warrior kit, buck teeth and all.

The Tyranids did have Squig Swarms back then. I think they were actually supposed to be the origin of the Orks' Squigs--derived from boyz who were captured by Tyranids and evolvified. (The first I ever heard of Squigs was from that army list entry!) However, the idea obviously didn't make much sense if the Tyranids had only recently arrived in the galaxy, so I don't think it lasted too long.


 Pacific wrote:
I had read that the...

MDG look away now!

.. buttock tattoo scene apparently got filtered by the editors who asked that Watson remove it, but then apparently ignored it at a subsequent pass so it ended up being printed in the final version. I can't remember that being particularly inappropriate so not sure why it would have been removed!


From what I've read of Ian Watson's stories, if you edited out everything that was inappropriate you'd be left with about nine words. I still can't get some of the imagery from Warped Stars out of my head, however hard I try.

EDIT:
 Pacific wrote:
Yes it was just a bit of fun but is hard to pick up tone on a forum

MDG - just need a small mind-scrub/few pints of something to remove the spoiler on the last page


Is this a good time to mention that almost two decades ago I stumbled onto a massive spoiler for the unfinished Chtorr series, and have had to keep quiet about it ever since because the fifth book is over a quarter of a century overdue? (And you think George RR Martin fans have it bad.)

... no, didn't think anyone cared. (And it would go off-topic anyway.)


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/19 09:29:19


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Hmmmmmmmm.

Unexpected £500 bonus from work this month.

Maybe I will pick up a copy of Titan Legions after all?


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/19 22:50:24


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Zenithfleet wrote:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Ian Watson's a better writer than that - the book's still great the second time round. Also, that sequence (which begins with Biff exulting that "We're going in through its anus!"; Ian Watson loves his bodily functions imagery, and who doesn't like the idea of an Imperial Fists suppository) is basically what happens in a game of Advanced Space Crusade.


Despite the fluff not always fitting with later editions, some of those early GW stories hold up much better as stories than later Black Library efforts... probably because in those days the fiction was contracted out to established sf/fantasy writers who had already made a name elsewhere. They didn't always 'get' the 40K universe (although Watson generally did), but they knew how to tell a good yarn.

(Did you know they almost had Tanith Lee writing Warhammer fiction? Imagine the Slaanesh we could have had!)


We did get Storm Constantine and Charles Stross contributing to the Deathwing anthology.

A lot of those authors - Ian Watson, Kim Newman, Bill King - did 'get' the Warhammer settings because they were making it up as they wrote their novels. Almost everything we know about Imperial Fists other than them being yellow comes from Space Marine, as is obvious in the 3rd edition Index Astartes article which still has the senior officers from the novel. There's an interview with Kim Newman somewhere out there that says that Brian Ansell basically gave him and the other authors all the game rulebooks as reference, but then said "if you make up something better, we'll just change the game to match".

I still think Ian Watson's writing conveys the tone of the setting better than any other author since - its organic and human, a world of people and life and corruption, not of machinery and science.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Pacific wrote:

Yes with the colouring was looking through some old WDs (around the release of Adv Space Crusade, when the Tyranid Warrior plastic kit was released) and there were some really weird colour schemes; yellows, whites, greens. Also what definitely looked to be Tyranid squigs, I'm not sure if there was ever cross-over with Orks there or they just looked similar? (Basically a monster base covered in small gribblies)


It's detailed on the side of the ASC box, and also in WD . IIRC, young adult Tyranids start out orangey red with yellow chitin, then darken to bright red with white chitin as they age through to dark red and blue chitin as older adults. Really old Tyranids fade to an all-over white, and presumably grumble that this galaxy isn't a patch on the last one. The markings on the forehead and armour (blue, then green, then yellow as they age) indicate which norn-queen spawned them (something retconned onto purestrain and hybrid genestealers). dark blue and purple was apparently the colour of infiltrators as that's the colours used for genestealers and hormagaunts until 3rd edition made them all the same colours.

As for the squigs, originally they were just an ork thing. Then in the 1st edition Tyranid army list in WD 145, they were added to the Tyranid army list (to bulk out the number of available units), although the grabber-slasher was sadly downgraded to just being a big squig, along with the facehugger-looking one. The smaller miniatures were the very same ones from the orks range. They were described as being made from ork DNA, and when orks first boarded a hiveship they recognised them as orkish and took them back with them, to spread throughout ork society as squigs. Doesn't really fit with the background in Waaargh! The Orks!, but never mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The red colouring indicating evolving on a planet round a red sun ... well, if it's a very bright sun, which it might be if the sun is a red giant, then the red colouring might help to reflect red light. Plants wouldn't be red, as then they wouldn't absorb much light. But then, plants on earth are green because the clorophyll absorbs blue and green light. They'd be more efficient if they were actually purple and absorbed yellow and green light, but then the first plants to photosynthesise came up with clorophyll, which is horribly inefficient, but they're all stuck with it now. so perhaps plants under a red sun will be red and just suck.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/19 23:03:52


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Pacific wrote:
... buttock tattoo scene apparently got filtered by the editors who asked that Watson remove it, but then apparently ignored it at a subsequent pass so it ended up being printed in the final version. I can't remember that being particularly inappropriate so not sure why it would have been removed!
I seem to recall a scene where Lexandro and his Scout Squad had to climb up a pipe and in the exertion ended up farting constantly.

I was 11 or 12 when I read this book, but I'm pretty sure that happened.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/19 23:10:31


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Zenithfleet wrote:

From what I've read of Ian Watson's stories, if you edited out everything that was inappropriate you'd be left with about nine words. I still can't get some of the imagery from Warped Stars out of my head, however hard I try.


I can't help thinking that Space Marine should be illustrated by Tom of Finland.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I seem to recall a scene where Lexandro and his Scout Squad had to climb up a pipe and in the exertion ended up farting constantly.

I was 11 or 12 when I read this book, but I'm pretty sure that happened.


Yep. That's there. Used as a metaphor for the social heirarchy in a hive world, as represented by the three characters.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/20 07:54:51


Post by: Horla


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Horla wrote:
I am. I don’t ruin books and movies on people who haven’t read or seen them. It’s a good way of not killing conversations like you just have.
Wow. You really didn't get that we were kidding around, did you?

Nope. Have I been going rasher at you because I missed a joke?

Sorry! I haven't read the book and seriously thought you dropped a massive spoiler and then were being an arse about it.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/20 08:16:33


Post by: Zenithfleet


 AndrewGPaul wrote:

The red colouring indicating evolving on a planet round a red sun ... well, if it's a very bright sun, which it might be if the sun is a red giant, then the red colouring might help to reflect red light. Plants wouldn't be red, as then they wouldn't absorb much light. But then, plants on earth are green because the clorophyll absorbs blue and green light. They'd be more efficient if they were actually purple and absorbed yellow and green light, but then the first plants to photosynthesise came up with clorophyll, which is horribly inefficient, but they're all stuck with it now. so perhaps plants under a red sun will be red and just suck.


Hang on a sec, aren't Earth plants green because they reflect green light, rather than absorb it?

I'm also pretty sure that the first photosynthesising organisms were pink or purple, and that green chlorophyll was a later improvement.

(I also read somewhere that reflecting green light, while it may seem counterproductive, is actually a good protective measure because the Sun puts out too much energy, and if leaves absorbed all of it they'd probably a) crinkle up, b) dry out and c) catch fire. I have no idea where I read that, though.)

Regardless, I think 'red plants and animals because red sun' probably makes no real sense, and is one of those attempts by history majors to sound sciencey that GW was and remains famous for.

In some actual SETI speculation on planets orbiting red dwarf stars, I once saw an interesting idea: Apparently infrared light can penetrate a few millimetres into a solid surface (? - going from memory here). Therefore, plants using infrared light could keep their 'leaves', i.e. photosynthesising cells, inside their branches beneath a thin protective covering where herbivores would have trouble getting to them. So you could have a lot of creepy, leafless forests...


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/20 10:27:24


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Yes, my typo. Meant to say plants reflect blue and red light.

I think I’ve heard that theory about being “deliberately” ineffecient, but it’d be just as easy for them to simply have fewer chloroplasts. Ive also read that since photosynthesis evolved first in the seas, absorbing blue light was advantageous, and when plants moved on land they were stuck with it.

To be fair to GW, everyone makes up crappy science to justify their cool-looking stuff. There’s lots of nonsense to “explain” why the USS Enterprise is he shape it is, for instance. Ultimately those tyranid warriors were red because it was the ‘90s.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/20 14:12:32


Post by: Pacific


 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Ultimately those tyranid warriors were red because it was the ‘90s.


Brilliant line..


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/20 17:45:27


Post by: Racerguy180


Zenithfleet wrote:
Spoiler:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:

The red colouring indicating evolving on a planet round a red sun ... well, if it's a very bright sun, which it might be if the sun is a red giant, then the red colouring might help to reflect red light. Plants wouldn't be red, as then they wouldn't absorb much light. But then, plants on earth are green because the clorophyll absorbs blue and green light. They'd be more efficient if they were actually purple and absorbed yellow and green light, but then the first plants to photosynthesise came up with clorophyll, which is horribly inefficient, but they're all stuck with it now. so perhaps plants under a red sun will be red and just suck.


Hang on a sec, aren't Earth plants green because they reflect green light, rather than absorb it?

I'm also pretty sure that the first photosynthesising organisms were pink or purple, and that green chlorophyll was a later improvement.

(I also read somewhere that reflecting green light, while it may seem counterproductive, is actually a good protective measure because the Sun puts out too much energy, and if leaves absorbed all of it they'd probably a) crinkle up, b) dry out and c) catch fire. I have no idea where I read that, though.)

Regardless, I think 'red plants and animals because red sun' probably makes no real sense, and is one of those attempts by history majors to sound sciencey that GW was and remains famous for.

In some actual SETI speculation on planets orbiting red dwarf stars, I once saw an interesting idea: Apparently infrared light can penetrate a few millimetres into a solid surface (? - going from memory here). Therefore, plants using infrared light could keep their 'leaves', i.e. photosynthesising cells, inside their branches beneath a thin protective covering where herbivores would have trouble getting to them.
So you could have a lot of creepy, leafless forests...

Sounds like the perfect Sci-Fi planet setting to me....


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/20 20:44:20


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Oh god dammit.

Got involved in a Mordheim thread, did a Rowley Birkin QC reminisce of my glory days. And now I want to play it again.

This time, I’m fairly sure I’ve still got the core rule book somewhere. So it would just be sourcing buildings and that.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/28 21:37:56


Post by: PaddyMick


Mordhiem came out during my hiatus from tabletop games and I always regret not getting into it, 'cos it looked great, like an old world necromunda, or warhammer quest with terrain. Is it similar to what Frostgrave is now?

Real reason for posting tonight: i've just taken delivery of white dwarfs 180 - 230.
Borrowed from my brother in law who left them at his parent's house 20 years ago.

Jervis Johnson in John Lennon shades.
Adrian Wood's orky face.
Battle reports with actual maps.
Best of all, so far, the original Guard regiment releases, sculpted by the Perry twins, introduced by the Man Himself.



Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/29 09:47:52


Post by: Pacific


Ah awesome, some of my favourite WD memories from that time.
Only thing that was certain was Andy Chambers would beat Jervis Johnson in a battle report, then the latter would always point out that he had forgotten to do something or move a unit afterwards! I'm not sure if Jervis ever beat him in print (maybe a draw once?)

I love Mordheim, probably up there with Necromunda as my favourite GW campaign-type game. I think playing with a good group of mates you can't beat it.
Once think almost went full RPG with a campaign, using the Mordheim map and players moved around throughout it. Think we had Vampires, Ork & Goblin, Dwarves, Elves, Pirates (!) Mercs in one campaign. My sister's warband had these two Orc bounty hunters (that were twins) that had a full backstory. Very first game we played, first dice role one of the twins fired an arrow that hit a friend's merc army captain - straight in the eye, dead. Later on the vampire count took one of the twin's prisoner for a dark ritual, and the rest of the O&G warband had to rescue him.
I think one of the final games was the vampire count (who was an absolute monster by the end of the campaign), riddled with arrows, finally reaching the most annoying character in the campaign (a High Elf archer that had Baron Munchenhausen-like skills of hitting anyone on a 2+ and had knocked out so many characters) and throwing him from a tower to his death.

Damn writing this has really made me want to play again


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/30 16:03:46


Post by: AndrewGPaul


Zenithfleet wrote:


Pacific wrote:I remember that 2nd ed Nid codex being so nasty! Think I got flattened by them every time I played a game against them..


I only got in a few games of 2nd ed before 3rd arrived, so my main memory of 2nd ed Tyranids is the amazing talent of my Hive Tyrant at landing venom cannon scatter shots on the Warrior brood to his left instead of the Marines he was aiming at.

To this day I still think of the Thudd Gun template as an essential part of basic 2nd ed kit, as important as dice, range rulers and the cardboard Ork Dreadnaught that can't be hit if you turn it sideways.


It might not be able to be hit, but you absolutely can be if you try that sort of nonsense.

I spent all of 2nd edition losing to that Tyranid codex (well, that and the Eldar). It's the only time I had 2nd edition Marines actually break - and to add insult to injury it was my Ld 9 Long Fangs.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/30 16:13:53


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I do wonder what newer gamers might make of the older games and editions.

Because let’s be honest, for us 40 somethings (well, I’m nudging 41), a significant part of the reverence comes from happy memories of a safer, more innocent time.

I had a hard time in secondary school, and found comfort in my gaming circle. I’d usually host as we had a gaming board (two interior doors..) in the garage. So those games were all a chance for us to just be our nerdy selves.

If I had the resources and wherewithal, I’d love to run a Vintage Gaming event. A chance for people who missed a certain game’s time or edition to give them a try.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/04/30 17:53:02


Post by: AndrewGPaul


There's already Bring Out Your Lead in August. While that's mostly populated by even older, crustier gamers playing 1st edition 40k and 3rd edition Warhammer, you might be able to interest some folk in some 2nd edition 40k.


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/05/01 05:03:30


Post by: PaddyMick


 Pacific wrote:
Ah awesome, some of my favourite WD memories from that time.
Only thing that was certain was Andy Chambers would beat Jervis Johnson in a battle report, then the latter would always point out that he had forgotten to do something or move a unit afterwards! I'm not sure if Jervis ever beat him in print (maybe a draw once?)


Hehe
As a kid I remember thinking Andy Chambers, with his biker beard, was just the coolest dude that ever lived, and was even jealous of Gav Thorpe and his 'mustache', since he seemed like a young guy getting to have loads of fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AndrewGPaul wrote:
There's already Bring Out Your Lead in August. While that's mostly populated by even older, crustier gamers playing 1st edition 40k and 3rd edition Warhammer, you might be able to interest some folk in some 2nd edition 40k.


Tthanks for the link, looks great. If I don't make it this year I will definately try for next year. Reckon i'll take some Man o War stuff along and see if anyone fancies a game!


Old Edition Appreciation Society @ 2021/05/01 17:00:16


Post by: Horla


 PaddyMick wrote:
Hehe
As a kid I remember thinking Andy Chambers, with his biker beard, was just the coolest dude that ever lived

I remember being gutted when he shaved and thinking he was a sell out!