I've been wondering about this for some while now. I'm really not very good at gaging whether 40k vehicles are scaled decently or not. Of course this can hardly be generalized and it greatly depends on the specific kit. For example I think rhinos are way too small, while a land raider at least seems to be able to carry a few people.
How do you feel about the scale of 40k vehicles in general and what specific kits are the right size or too small in your opinion. Just as a disclaimer: I am aware that it would not be feasible to scale every 40k vehicle 100% accurately due to not being practical in actual gameplay, but in some cases it really breaks my immersion. For example, as much as I love harlequins, I can not understand how 5 guys would fit into or on a starweaver unless they get crammed in there like in a literal clown car....which wouldn't be too far off actually, but still
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I think overall they've improved a lot over the years (perhaps slightly sacrificing how well they work as game pieces).
This. The improvements in plastic casting and the practicalities of making bigger plastic models has meant GW can boost the scale on models without only relying on massive chunks of resin from Forgeworld*. I think that most gamers accept that fully realistic scale is impractical; heck most of the buildings we play with as terrain are also woefully undersized. It's the nature of the game and I only tend to see "real scale" being rolled out in either pure skirmish games where you might only have 3 or 5 models per side in infantry only; or in games like Dropzone Commander where the scale is much smaller and thus you can be more practical with sizing because your tanks are now tiny and thus can be scaled to match other things and still be practical to game with.
Tabletop games - heck even PCRTS games have always been like this. It's about representation and playing with a theme rather than pure realistic recreation.
IT seeps into other areas too, I recall one of the Spartan Games developers talking about how they'd designed a super realistic WW2 game years back. Everything was present and simulated with dice rolls and charts and tables. Even down to the angle of shots, the area they hit and all kinds of things. Problem was it wasn't fun. It was so heavy with technical aspects that it took forever to play out. In contrast many games use a "to hit to wound" type roll system which, whilst very rough and ready, is very practical for the game.
Practicality should trump design and other features for the tabletop. Imagination is where we can recreate the battle in our minds eye with "true scale"
* I would add "at a premium price" but the price gap between FW and GW has been closing for years now
hobojebus wrote: Things like Landraiders would be three times as large if they were scaled properly, obviously that wouldn't really work on the table top.
But then scale has always been slapdash so it's nothing new.
Like I said I'm not good at gaging these things, but three times as large for a landraider seems extreme. He'd be as tall as a building.
The core issue here is that humans have what they call "heroic scale". What this basically means is they are very broad with large heads. Take a picture of a cadian and line it up to a real world soldier so they're the same height. The cadian is about twice as wide across the shoulders with a much bigger head.
It varies somewhat for different models, with Primaris marines having probably the most realistic proportions so far. But they're still a fair way off.
There's nothing inherently wrong about having stylised proportions like this of course. It's just an aesthetic, some people like it some don't. But what it does mean is that its pretty much impossible to realistically proportion vehicles. Chimeras are already very big if you scale them based on height of a Cadian, but they struggle to fit many soldiers based on width.
Stux wrote: The core issue here is that humans have what they call "heroic scale". What this basically means is they are very broad with large heads. Take a picture of a cadian and line it up to a real world soldier so they're the same height. The cadian is about twice as wide across the shoulders with a much bigger head.
It varies somewhat for different models, with Primaris marines having probably the most realistic proportions so far. But they're still a fair way off.
There's nothing inherently wrong about having stylised proportions like this of course. It's just an aesthetic, some people like it some don't. But what it does mean is that its pretty much impossible to realistically proportion vehicles. Chimeras are already very big if you scale them based on height of a Cadian, but they struggle to fit many soldiers based on width.
What you say is of course correct, but hasn't GW also improved the scale of normal human miniatures in the last couple of years?
I mean the traitor guardsman from Blackstone fortress look really good regarding their scale. To me at least they don't look like their heads are oversized compared to old cadians.
Yeah, definitely gotten better over time. It's still an exaggerated scale, but its sort of splitting the difference between old scale and reality. It's a lot less noticeable on newer models generally though.
I'd say for the most part the scaling is "decent" as you say, considering the way that the heroic scaling on the infantry and the guns warp the perspective as compared to a true scale. The cannon on a Leman Russ is battleship sized and there is no way it could fire a conventional shell. Every IG private is NFL size.
Another part of it is that the WWII stuff that you might compare them to are really smaller than you might expect, with the crew really being jammed in there. The 1/35 WWII vehicles look pretty good next to 40k infantry on the tabletop even though the 1/35 crewmen are gigantic in comparison. They don't look as right when next to more modern 1/35 models as they are larger now.
Imagine an NFL offensive line crewing one of those little scout cars.
For the small flyer transports, those do seem to be in a good scale. The US deploys special forces from tiny helicopters and they just ride on the sides not actually being in the vehicle. I imagine other countries do the same.
The mk2 Rhino and Land Raider were the right size for the original plastic marine models. I think they even had a cut-away model where they showed how the marines could fit in the Rhino (3 per bench, 3 in the middle, sergeant seated up front/in turret). Problem is, the figure scale creep has made all the marine vehicles - including the new ones - too small.
Same thing happened with guard when the Cadian sculpts were released - Chimeras became too small for the figure models.
So do you think GW should adapt old vehicle kits to the new infantry at some point? I know this would be highly unlikely, but just speaking hypothetically.
Drukhari Raiders are to scale, which is really fun and one of the reasons why I appreciate (read: love) that kit so much (it’s also just a fantastic design and model) I believe the Venom (their smaller transport) is too, but I haven’t tried modelling a full squad on one of those (yet?!)
It always bugs me when vehicles are not to scale. I think if a vehicle would be 'too big' if properly scaled then the solution is to stick to smaller ones. That said, we have baneblades and imperial knights rolling around the table. Having a rhino sized to actually carry 10 marines shouldn't be a problem.
40k vehicles are too small for their transport function and for how large their guns are/how many guns they have. They're in essence vehicle-shaped tokens as opposed to any sort of "accurate" representation.
It's apparent that few people here have actually been around military vehicles. They simply aren't that large. The deck of an M1 Abrams is only a foot higher than a Toyota Corolla.
A BMP-3 can hold 12 people and it's much smaller than a Rhino.
You can argue with certainty that 7' super soldiers would need a bigger ride, but the land raider is 14' high according to GW.
The game's vehicles are around 1/43th scale, not 1/56th or 1/48th or other values I've seen people post, at least according to the earliest sculptors from 2nd & 3rd edition.
Are you sure?
This is a BMP-3 and it seems to me it is by far large than the Rhino, in comparison to the troops that both of vehicles should carry.
P.S. I was in a Regiment of the Italian Army and ours vehicle was the B1 Centauro (see the image below), so I can say I haven't been around military vehicle because I was inside one of them.
I used a 1/35 tank for my Imperial Guard (subtlety pimping my gallery).
It looks like a reasonable size next to miniatures, and is approximately the same height and width as the Leman Russ it's counting as (although is about 50% longer).
But 1/35 is huge compared to the nominal scale of 1/56 that 40k uses.
Tiberias wrote: I've been wondering about this for some while now. I'm really not very good at gaging whether 40k vehicles are scaled decently or not. Of course this can hardly be generalized and it greatly depends on the specific kit. For example I think rhinos are way too small, while a land raider at least seems to be able to carry a few people.
How do you feel about the scale of 40k vehicles in general and what specific kits are the right size or too small in your opinion. Just as a disclaimer: I am aware that it would not be feasible to scale every 40k vehicle 100% accurately due to not being practical in actual gameplay, but in some cases it really breaks my immersion. For example, as much as I love harlequins, I can not understand how 5 guys would fit into or on a starweaver unless they get crammed in there like in a literal clown car....which wouldn't be too far off actually, but still
It varies.
The Rhino and it's family is approximately in-scale with a Space Marine relative to the M113 family, and relatively reasonably dimensioned. It's a little wide, but otherwise about as much bigger than an M113 as a Space Marine is bigger than a human [and this works scaling off of both 1/56 and a Space Marine IIRC]
The Leman Russ on the other hand, is strangely square, unreasonably tall, and it's interior layout just plain doesn't work on the model as modeled. The tank commander's legs intersect with the breech, there's nowhere for the gunner, or ammunition, etc.
ursvamp wrote: Drukhari Raiders are to scale, which is really fun and one of the reasons why I appreciate (read: love) that kit so much (it’s also just a fantastic design and model)
I believe the Venom (their smaller transport) is too, but I haven’t tried modelling a full squad on one of those (yet?!)
While I feel that Venoms are quite close to scale, I find that Raiders look really small, particularly when you add the gunner and helmsman. I think this has more to do with me imagining them to be big war galley type vessels, rather than the skiffs with spikes which I think they are meant to be.
hobojebus wrote: Things like Landraiders would be three times as large if they were scaled properly, obviously that wouldn't really work on the table top.
But then scale has always been slapdash so it's nothing new.
Like I said I'm not good at gaging these things, but three times as large for a landraider seems extreme. He'd be as tall as a building.
The Land Raider is already as tall as a building. If we're assuming Trueborn are 7 ft tall, a Land Raider is like 16 feet high, which is f****** enourmous.
Like, this is what I get if I measure a Rhino out:
If anything, I'd say that 40k vehicles err on the side of too large rather than small. I haven't seen too many Primaris next to their vehicles. The poor crew and passengers get packed like sardines inside a military vehicle. I think the main issue is the heroic scale warping only some of the proportions of the models while staying at the... ~28ish scale and the fact that the power armour makes models even thicker. The M113, real life's Rhino, holds 2 crew and something like 10-11 passengers and I think is even proportionally smaller than the Rhino when compared to the RL humans it carries. 10 marines might be a bit much, but I could see 8 or so passengers fitting in there. And for game purposes, it's just easier to round it up to 10.
The interior bit of the rhino kit might be a bit smaller and laid out a bit "incorrectly," too. But I definitely think there's space in the vehicle for almost 10 passengers. (And maybe, just maybe, marine crewmen shouldn't be wearing full power armour).
I will concede that the 1ksons do look too tall and thick for their transport. But that might just be the hats. 32mm bases these days also make everyone look just that much bigger, too, aha.
and this is an actual infantry fighting vehicle able to carry up to 9 men (a crew of 3 plus a squad of 6):
Drawn your own conclusion…
See, it's easy to draw a different conclusion with different models and different photos. Humans don't walk around on bases, aren't "heroically proportioned" and don't wear big hats. Also the TSons are big compared to the Tactical Marines that the Rhino was scaled to originally. I popped off some bases and took a few shots, and in my army they're much more reasonably scaled.
Insectum7 wrote: The Land Raider is already as tall as a building. If we're assuming Trueborn are 7 ft tall, a Land Raider is like 16 feet high, which is f****** enourmous.
Like, this is what I get if I measure a Rhino out:
Which is interesting when you consider that it is basically a slightly modified M113 APC with dimensions of 4.86m x 2.69m x 2.5m.
It is rated for 2 crew and 11 passengers, but those passengers were like Catachans in terms of kit instead of either the Cadian body armor to say nothing about the power armor of the Astartes.
The Land Raider is already as tall as a building. If we're assuming Trueborn are 7 ft tall, a Land Raider is like 16 feet high, which is f****** enourmous.
Like, this is what I get if I measure a Rhino out:
Which is interesting when you consider that it is basically a slightly modified M113 APC with dimensions of 4.86m x 2.69m x 2.5m.
It is rated for 2 crew and 11 passengers, but those passengers were like Catachans in terms of kit instead of either the Cadian body armor to say nothing about the power armor of the Astartes.
Right, so a Rhino is 1 crewman and 10 passengers, and Power Armor is big. The Rhinos got an extra 2.5m of length though, so there's some extra room in comparison to the M113. So then you get to deal with multiple directions of slop to go in to try and get things to fit. If you keep Astartes at 7 ft in armor it helps. If you accept that most depictions of them are heroically proportioned it helps. If you accept that the Rhino isn't exactly to scale it helps, etc.
But if you're looking at fully enclosing 10 Space Marines in all their heroic bulk into the Rhino as the model is designed 1:1, you get problems.
This is one of the reasons why I've always liked the running boards and handholds on the sides of the Mk1 Rhino. I imagine much of the time Marines are dismounted from the Rhino to begin with, and when they travel for distance a couple of them ride on the sides to leave space in the interior and to act as extra lookouts. Plus it just fits the Rogue Trader aesthetic much better, imo.
There's a reason why I put running boards and handholds on all my Rhino chassis. I've yet to model some Marines hanging onto the sides, but I'm planning to do it at some point.
I agree that the Dark Eldar vehicles have excellent scaling. I love that they cling to Raiders and Venoms like an evil knife-eared version of GorkaMorka.
Blndmage wrote: I've always thought the Monoliths was scaled down from the depictions of them in the lore.
I mean. . . I dunno They're effing enourmous if you measure them out. Hehe, I guess the new one is smaller than the old one though. The old model is like a 4-5 story building tall.
and this is an actual infantry fighting vehicle able to carry up to 9 men (a crew of 3 plus a squad of 6):
Drawn your own conclusion…
See, it's easy to draw a different conclusion with different models and different photos. Humans don't walk around on bases, aren't "heroically proportioned" and don't wear big hats. Also the TSons are big compared to the Tactical Marines that the Rhino was scaled to originally. I popped off some bases and took a few shots, and in my army they're much more reasonably scaled.
[…]
What a moment! I don't have any base on my feet? Oh my God, I didn't realize that!
Joking a side, to understand if a vehicle is in the right scale, we must also know (at least approximatively) its interior dimensions: how many room does the engine occupies and the turret and the gas tank?
For example the M2 Bradley (the vehicle in the image posted by you and me) can't carry more than 6 infantry men (plus a crew of 3), even if it is 6,55 metres long, 3,6 metres wide and 3 metres high. So considering the space marines not only are larger than a regular human, but they also wear the power armour (which makes they even bigger), it is hard think that a Rhino could carry more than four space marines (three if one of them carries a heavy weapon). How many marines can a Rhino carry?
The image beneath shows the interior of the M2 Bradley and like you can see the room for the passengers is more or less one third of its external dimensions.
for the original sized Marine models that were made at the same time
yet the infantry models changed a lot over time while vehicles stayed the same
another problem is that there is no real scale within the GW range
vehicles are ~1/48, vehicle weapons 1/35 to 1/48
vehicles in 40k that were designed at the same time as the infantry, scale well, eg Dark Eldar and Tau
those that are older than the infantry models scale badly
For the sake of comparison with Insectum's post- here's my Land Raider, which happens to be on a base next to some modern Plague Marines and Blightlord Termies.
Looking at that, I firmly believe the bases (or general lack thereof on some vehicles) are throwing people off. Even with the modern figures, everything being on the same level makes it look a bit more in scale in your head, though not perfect by any means.
EDIT- Some more, so before anyone can say I purposely chose minis mid stride (most BLTs are though), or took it at an angle. Here's two more from side on with some static PMs and some (even chonkier than BLTs) static Deathshroud.
Regarding the M2, the turret eats up a lot of internal volume that passengers could be in (compare a LAV3 with the 25mm turret and a Stryker). So it makes sense that the Rhino holds 10 while the Razorback holds 6. Still, the internal layout of 40K vehicles is something I just accept through the willing suspension of disbelief. How does it look from the outside? That's all that matters.
@Insectum
Nice models BTW! Also good points about bases throwing off perspective.
Base or no base, 10 marines are not fitting in a rhino. It looks bad in the games I am playing and that's what I care about. It bugs me. I'm not saying this is some great or widespread problem that must be dealt with, just that personally the large number of vehicles that cannot reasonably fit anywhere close to their supposed number of occupants is an irritant.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Base or no base, 10 marines are not fitting in a rhino. It looks bad in the games I am playing and that's what I care about. It bugs me. I'm not saying this is some great or widespread problem that must be dealt with, just that personally the large number of vehicles that cannot reasonably fit anywhere close to their supposed number of occupants is an irritant.
[MODE_OT_ON]
This is why I think W40k should adopt the 1/100 scale: in this way the miniatures could be enough great to be played individually and the vehicles could be built in a more coherent scale, but still usable on a reasonably large table.
Obviously GW should still produce larger miniature skirmish games and collectors.
[MODE_OT_OFF]
If GW were to redo the rhino and land raider kit and scaled them up by I don't know....25%, to maybe better represent their transport capability. Would they become unwieldy on a gaming table with reasonable amounts of terrain?
There is one significant factor people are ignoring in the vehicle scale discussion - PRICE! Sure, GW could make a Repulsor big enough to fit ten Primaris marines...but how much would it cost, and how many people would be willing to pay that? Not very many, I’d guess.
Tiberias wrote: If GW were to redo the rhino and land raider kit and scaled them up by I don't know....25%, to maybe better represent their transport capability. Would they become unwieldy on a gaming table with reasonable amounts of terrain?
Width becomes an issue. Highly lethal games like 40k often require tables where infantry can move from cover to cover in one move (especially with high-mobility guns and accurate barrage weapons), and if your vehicles are so wide they require open streets wider than an infantry unit's movement to cross you'll either see vehicles fall out of use (since you can't move them on tables with usable cover) or infantry fall out of use (since if they leave the spot where you deployed them they die too fast). If GW took a step back from pumping offense in every book and tried to rebalance things so that getting caught in line of sight/out of cover wasn't always an instant death sentence you might have more luck.
totalfailure wrote: There is one significant factor people are ignoring in the vehicle scale discussion - PRICE! Sure, GW could make a Repulsor big enough to fit ten Primaris marines...but how much would it cost, and how many people would be willing to pay that? Not very many, I’d guess.
Well that depends.
The extra plastic would be literally pennies (if that) on the cost of model
GW's prices come from pretty well everywhere butraw material. So a larger model doesnt need to be more expensive.
Now could GW resist using it as justification to bump up the price? That's another question.
kirotheavenger wrote: ...GW's prices come from pretty well everywhere butraw material. So a larger model doesnt need to be more expensive...
Sort of. Extra plastic is negligible, but if you make the extra plastic big enough that you need an extra sprue then you have the design/tooling costs of an entire extra set of molds, plus the logistical considerations of making the assembly line a step bigger. It's not 1:1, certainly, and it doesn't really depend on the amount of plastic, but making a model bigger can increase the design costs.
Tiberias wrote: If GW were to redo the rhino and land raider kit and scaled them up by I don't know....25%, to maybe better represent their transport capability. Would they become unwieldy on a gaming table with reasonable amounts of terrain?
Width becomes an issue. Highly lethal games like 40k often require tables where infantry can move from cover to cover in one move (especially with high-mobility guns and accurate barrage weapons), and if your vehicles are so wide they require open streets wider than an infantry unit's movement to cross you'll either see vehicles fall out of use (since you can't move them on tables with usable cover) or infantry fall out of use (since if they leave the spot where you deployed them they die too fast). If GW took a step back from pumping offense in every book and tried to rebalance things so that getting caught in line of sight/out of cover wasn't always an instant death sentence you might have more luck.
this started to be a problem with GW changing from 25mm to 32mm standard base size
which is strange as 40k started to be a smaller skirmish sized game, with smaller models, and is now a company sized game, on a smaller board with larger models
but I would rather see all models in the right scale and just play 500-1000 points on 48*72" instead of oversized infantry with too small transport because otherwise 2000 points don't fit 44*60"
kodos wrote: ...but I would rather see all models in the right scale and just play 500-1000 points on 48*72" instead of oversized infantry with too small transport because otherwise 2000 points don't fit 44*60"
Great! GW seems to disagree, though. Maybe try a skirmish format or Oldhammer with older smaller minis/3d-printed vehicles to the correct scale.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Base or no base, 10 marines are not fitting in a rhino. It looks bad in the games I am playing and that's what I care about. It bugs me. I'm not saying this is some great or widespread problem that must be dealt with, just that personally the large number of vehicles that cannot reasonably fit anywhere close to their supposed number of occupants is an irritant.
You ever see an M113? That thing can fit thirteen people. Two crew, eleven passengers. It's basically a human-scale Rhino. And yet look how small it is compared to the dudes riding on it:
I've seen mockups of Rhinos containing the full allotment of Marines. It's doable- provided they have the same hunched-up, sardines-in-a-can, clown car posture that is necessary to fit an entire squad in a real APC.
I think there's a legitimate case to be made that a vehicle should look like the right size to the average observer, given that the overwhelming majority of wargamers haven't experienced the joys of armored personnel carriers, but objectively speaking I think the Rhino is physically plausible.
Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but there is enough room inside the vehicles to contain the troops, the crew, the mechanical and the weapon systems? The troops have enough room for a quick exit from the vehicle? In fact the M113 was substituted by the larger M2 Bradly, which can carry only 3+6 men, while the M113 could carry 2+11 men.
P.S. Let's be frank: I'm not saying the Rhino isn't in a good scale; also because a bigger vehicle would be cumbersome on the table. I'm saying it is in the perfect scale to carry up to 6/7 marines: a crew of 2 and a squad of 4/5, no more.
EDIT: I have corrected the last two questions and added the post scriptum.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but how much room remains inside the vehicles? It is enough for the crew, the mechanical and the weapon system?
Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
I don’t really think the scale difference is that bad for 40k vehicles more with some of the scale for parts on them. Which I think throws off a lot more when I think about it as a whole.
Would be happy to see the rhino and it’s kits go up like 5/10% or so.
And more bases on tanks is welcome now that a lot are already on them, it breaks my heart when people drag a mini along a table without a base :( even if it’s just the underside.
It's a wargame played with plastic miniatures that has some scale abstractions to make gameplay easier, nevermind that it takes place some 38,000 in the future. Vehicle scale issues don't particularly bother me.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but how much room remains inside the vehicles? It is enough for the crew, the mechanical and the weapon system?
Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
ccs wrote: Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Base or no base, 10 marines are not fitting in a rhino. It looks bad in the games I am playing and that's what I care about. It bugs me. I'm not saying this is some great or widespread problem that must be dealt with, just that personally the large number of vehicles that cannot reasonably fit anywhere close to their supposed number of occupants is an irritant.
You ever see an M113? That thing can fit thirteen people. Two crew, eleven passengers. It's basically a human-scale Rhino. And yet look how small it is compared to the dudes riding on it:
That's box art which I think is a bit deceptive, when you look at a photo with real people instead of drawn people it looks a lot more like they'd fit in easily enough.
ccs wrote: Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
I'd love to see that model.
1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...
I remember that model, it was a normal Rhino with the top open and a bunch of marines seated inside it, I don't remember where I've seen it and google fails me. I also don't remember if it was a full 10 marines? And they were probably rogue trader era marines.
The current rhino with the current marines I've seen images of 4 dudes inside it, lol.
ccs wrote: Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
I'd love to see that model.
1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...
Not that one. I distinctly remember it being an old Rhino (iiirc) that was painted yellow, or possibly Imperial Fists. I looked for it yesterday to no avail. I can see it so clearly in my head.
amanita wrote: I remember it too. They were packed in like sardines, but they were in there. Most were sitting.
Yep. Not sure how they'd get out as it struck me none of them had room to move, but they were all in there. Proving the point that YES 10 SM would fit in a rhino.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but there is enough room inside the vehicles to contain the troops, the crew, the mechanical and the weapon systems? The troops have enough room for a quick exit from the vehicle? In fact the M113 was substituted by the larger M2 Bradly, which can carry only 3+6 men, while the M113 could carry 2+11 men.
Well, the Rhino is not the size of an M113, but it's the same shape scaled up significantly, with roughly the same proportions compared to a Marine as a Marine does compared to a Guardsman. For the sake of comparison:
So the Rhino has well over double the footprint of an M113, and over three times the volume, so it's not like we're literally discussing shoving ten Marines in a M113. Fitting a lesser number of larger troops seems plausible to me, YMMV. I know it's hard or even impossible to do with the actual minis, but try to stick dynamically posed, heroically scaled army men in any APC and it's not going to work either.
Also the Bradley isn't an APC despite the original intent, so it's not especially relevant here. It's basically a Predator with some troops shoved in the back.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: Did you ever be inside an M113?
I did, so I can say it can carry eleven men, but they are average human beings (so not large like the astartes), they wear regular army clothes (so no power armour) and they don't have back pack (he power armour can't work without it, if I'm not wrong), so we can't do a direct comparison among the actual military vehicles and the space marines ones.
Do you can put ten space marines in a Rhino?
Maybe yes, but there is enough room inside the vehicles to contain the troops, the crew, the mechanical and the weapon systems? The troops have enough room for a quick exit from the vehicle? In fact the M113 was substituted by the larger M2 Bradly, which can carry only 3+6 men, while the M113 could carry 2+11 men.
Well, the Rhino is not the size of an M113, but it's the same shape scaled up significantly, with roughly the same proportions compared to a Marine as a Marine does compared to a Guardsman. For the sake of comparison:
So the Rhino has well over double the footprint of an M113, and over three times the volume, so it's not like we're literally discussing shoving ten Marines in a M113. Fitting a lesser number of larger troops seems plausible to me, YMMV.
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That is more or less what I wrote in a later post: the Rhino is in the right scale to carry a squad of 4/5 space marines, no more.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: That is more or less what I wrote in a later post: the Rhino is in the right scale to carry a squad of 4/5 space marines, no more.
Given that we have an example in this thread of nine Marine models, with their goofy dynamic squatting poses and heroic proportions, fitting into a plastic Rhino model, I stand by my assessment. I think you are overestimating the size of Marines a bit- even if you contend that the minis aren't big enough to be 'truescale', usually truescale conversions are about increasing their height, not footprint.
the original 10 Marines fit conversion was around 2006, using the new/current Rhino and RT plastic Marines
as far as I know it was lost with the crash of Warseer
and yes, it is supposed to be 6 Marines sitting (3 on each side), 3 Marines standing and 1 sitting next to the driver
it is just that Marines got larger over time with each new Box, while the size of the Rhino is still the same
The_Grim_Angel wrote: That is more or less what I wrote in a later post: the Rhino is in the right scale to carry a squad of 4/5 space marines, no more.
Given that we have an example in this thread of nine Marine models, with their goofy dynamic squatting poses and heroic proportions, fitting into a plastic Rhino model, I stand by my assessment. I think you are overestimating the size of Marines a bit- even if you contend that the minis aren't big enough to be 'truescale', usually truescale conversions are about increasing their height, not footprint.
Given that in a real vehicle the troops need enough room to exit rapidly from the vehicle and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad, I repeat what I already state: if the Rino were in the same scale of the space marine, it shouldn't carry more that 5 men. Otherwise the scale of the Rhino isn't right and if the rules state it can carry up to 10 marines, then the scale is very bad; at least in my opinion.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: ...and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad...
Out of curiosity have you had a chance to sit with a squad in a newer APC/IFV? I'm looking at Wikipedia and they seem to be getting bigger (M113: 4.9m x 2.7m x 2.5m, 12.3 tons; Puma 7.6m x 3.9m x 3.6m, 30-40 tons depending on configuration), but is the passenger compartment getting any bigger or is all the extra size/weight armour and turret?
6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.
Good thing the current Rhino model is 21 years old then.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: Given that in a real vehicle the troops need enough room to exit rapidly from the vehicle and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad, I repeat what I already state: if the Rino were in the same scale of the space marine, it shouldn't carry more that 5 men. Otherwise the scale of the Rhino isn't right and if the rules state it can carry up to 10 marines, then the scale is very bad; at least in my opinion.
Okay, so what you are arguing is not that 10 Marines can't physically fit in a Rhino, but that you don't think 10 Marines in a Rhino is tactically/doctrinally sound? That's not the same thing.
While I can't speak for the M113 personally, space is definitely at a premium in a BMP, Stryker, or Humvee. Having nine Marines all crammed shoulder-to-shoulder in the back of a Rhino seems closer to this than what you're suggesting of just four or five Marines in the back plus one up front.
The_Grim_Angel wrote: Given that in a real vehicle the troops need enough room to exit rapidly from the vehicle and given that I had the chance to sit in a M113 with my squad, I repeat what I already state: if the Rino were in the same scale of the space marine, it shouldn't carry more that 5 men. Otherwise the scale of the Rhino isn't right and if the rules state it can carry up to 10 marines, then the scale is very bad; at least in my opinion.
Okay, so what you are arguing is not that 10 Marines can't physically fit in a Rhino, but that you don't think 10 Marines in a Rhino is tactically/doctrinally sound? That's not the same thing.
The tread is about the scale, so I was talking about the scale of the miniatures, not about the tactical/strategical/doctrinal considerations or about the lore.
catbarf wrote: While I can't speak for the M113 personally, space is definitely at a premium in a BMP, Stryker, or Humvee. Having nine Marines all crammed shoulder-to-shoulder in the back of a Rhino seems closer to this than what you're suggesting of just four or five Marines in the back plus one up front.
I hope you will forgive me, but I'm a little bit tired about this part of the discussion, so I will no more reply about it.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.
More accurately you care about the models your using today.
Because we're playing the same game & yet my 20+ year old DA still fit in their 20+ year old MK1b Rhinos (theoretically - I'm not going to try & model it even though I've seen it done)
ccs wrote: Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
I'd love to see that model.
1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...
Not that one. I distinctly remember it being an old Rhino (iiirc) that was painted yellow, or possibly Imperial Fists. I looked for it yesterday to no avail. I can see it so clearly in my head.
I vaguely remember seeing it as well. It had to be in a White Dwarf, and as I recall, they had removed the backpacks from the marines to fit them. I think it was shortly after the Mk II rhino version had come out and they were touting how it could actually fit the squad inside (because the inside was modelled, unlike the prior version).
Also the Bradley isn't an APC despite the original intent, so it's not especially relevant here. It's basically a Predator with some troops shoved in the back.
Just a teeny-tiny nitpick, but Pentagon Wars is a movie based on a book by a man belonging to self-called "reformers" group. And by "reformers" they were some of the most hidebound traditionalists to ever grace the US military. Some members of the group thought that guided weapons were a waste of time and money, and the best airplane for the USAF would be a "blitzfighter", a barely-above-Me262 tier jet armed only with a 30mm autocannon cause modern jets were too complex and expensive. Another part of the same clique insists that M113 is the best troop transport ever, and US Army should stick to it (pretty much forever, it is the pinnacle of APC tech).
So yeah, it's essentially a movie based on a self-martyrdom fanfic of a luddite.
As to the issue of fitting 10 marines in- you also want those marines seated. Transporting standing troops in a vehicle that is very much not OSHA-safe at high speeds is just a way to get someone hurt or their equipment damaged. It'd be real awkward if brother Leodontis got to the battle with his lenses cracked by brother Dodones' driving cause he wasn't sitting securely.
NinthMusketeer wrote: 6 marines in a rhino I am totally behind, its 10 that doesn't work. Maybe it worked with older minis, cool. But I care about the game I'm playing today not 20 years ago.
More accurately you care about the models your using today.
Because we're playing the same game & yet my 20+ year old DA still fit in their 20+ year old MK1b Rhinos (theoretically - I'm not going to try & model it even though I've seen it done)
In all of this discussion about whether the marines can fit in the vehicles, are people looking at the exteriors or the interiors or the vehicles? Because those 2nd generation models have interiors which significantly reduce the amount of space to pack troops in, unlike the first generation Rhino.
It's entirely plausible that when they were working out how big the vehicles (and their interiors) needed to be that they figured that the backpacks could be separate and stashed off somewhere, like you would for a trooper that wasn't in power armor, but "What the does the backpack do?" changed between then and now.
See, it's easy to draw a different conclusion with different models and different photos. Humans don't walk around on bases, aren't "heroically proportioned" and don't wear big hats. Also the TSons are big compared to the Tactical Marines that the Rhino was scaled to originally. I popped off some bases and took a few shots, and in my army they're much more reasonably scaled.
Wait...what?
My landraider is that big? Is this some lens trickery? I must investigate...
ccs wrote: Many ages ago (3rd ed? 4th ed?) there was a Golden Demon winning entry where the guy positioned all 10 of the Marines (sans bases of course) in the rhinos trop compartment. So I'm going to say yes.
I forget if it was an old or new rhino sculpt. But all 10 marines were in there.
I'd love to see that model.
1988 golden demon 3rd place perhaps...
Not that one. I distinctly remember it being an old Rhino (iiirc) that was painted yellow, or possibly Imperial Fists. I looked for it yesterday to no avail. I can see it so clearly in my head.
If it's the one I think it is, it wasn't a Golden Demon entry, just something a guy did for show. It used the original rhino kit and old landspeeder crew, with no backpacks. Fairly sure it was on a Geocities site, so long gone now.
The other one posted in the thread here, with the current rhino kit, has 2nd edition marines inside. I tried something similar some years back using the 3rd ed-onwards marine models, and they physically didn't fit... the floor in the current rhino is too high, and so there is not enough clearance.
That being said, it's close enough that it works so long as you're not actually trying to put the models inside.
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Blndmage wrote: Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?
Generally, because they're the ones that look most out of place to people. Although I have doubts about the ability of Eldar Guardians to physically fit into the back of a Falcon or Wave Serpent as well...
Blndmage wrote: Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?
I think everyone's in agreement that, say, a crew of Orks can fit in a Snazzwagon, given that there are literally Orks modelled inside the Snazzwagon. Same goes for most Tau, Drukhari, and Necron stuff (including transports).
If any of y'all haven't recently, go to the FW website if it isn't down right now and look at the interior shots of the Manta. It's disturbingly to-scale.
Blndmage wrote: Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?
I think everyone's in agreement that, say, a crew of Orks can fit in a Snazzwagon, given that there are literally Orks modelled inside the Snazzwagon. Same goes for most Tau, Drukhari, and Necron stuff (including transports).
If any of y'all haven't recently, go to the FW website if it isn't down right now and look at the interior shots of the Manta. It's disturbingly to-scale.
The Ork Trukk used to feel a bit small for the number of models that were supposedly able to fit in it, but with more recent waves GW have upsized it all to be more reasonable.
FW tends to scale things properly when they're given the chance. If they're using GW models as a base they are obviously going to have the same flaws as GW models, but the fully FW models in general tend to be large enough to fit what they're supposed to be able to fit, like the Gorgon where they sold strips of DKOK to fill it up.
Blndmage wrote: Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?
Well you figure...
-Chaos vehicles are either the same as imperial ones or daemon engines
-Orks/DEldar/GSC are difficult to define since they can reasonably be grabbing the vehicle's sides/roof
-Necron transports are mobile means of teleportation
-Do the Eldar transports physically transport their dudes? I always assumed there was some teleportation shenanigans going on, because the amount of Eldar infantry so clearly don't fit.
-Tyranids have transports but do weird bio-stuff with them.
-Tau aren't bad.
Anyways, what about non-Marine Imperials? The amount of transport on AdMech seems a bit off too me, IG it depends on exactly what is going into what, SoB... I don't actually know how many can be transported.
See, it's easy to draw a different conclusion with different models and different photos. Humans don't walk around on bases, aren't "heroically proportioned" and don't wear big hats. Also the TSons are big compared to the Tactical Marines that the Rhino was scaled to originally. I popped off some bases and took a few shots, and in my army they're much more reasonably scaled.
Wait...what?
My landraider is that big? Is this some lens trickery? I must investigate...
Granted, the shot maximizes the cross-section of the Raider to the lens, but it is twice as tall as a Marine. If you go by the Marine being 7ish feet tall, the Land Raider is 14+, making it effing gigantic for a tank.
Looking at Insectums pictures I'd say MKI Rhino really was a bit small, even at its time, but MKII Rhino and Land Raider actually have a good scale for Marines of the same age.
Now if I let my 8th edition Plague Marines come out of my MKI Rhino things get strange. But my MKI Rhino is also painted blue like the Tardis, warp magic explains everything I guess .
We all know that old imperial, space marines in particular are awful for scale, but the one that specifically bugs me the most is the Drukhari/Harlequin venom... That's not even that old of a kit and they managed to fudge the scale of it that much, and even for pointy ears, I'm not accepting they can ride on those smooth ergonomic wings safely.
I suppose crammed in they would fit, but also shoot competently out of it though? No, sorry... One of the worse scale mistakes going for me.
EDIT: Actually, there's a few more modern vehicles as well, ork trukks with everyone being able to shoot out of it also, that just wouldn't happen.
Come to think of it, I can think of loads of modern ones now, Stormravens, not only being an ugly kit without a forgeworld upgrade, 10 marines are meant to fit in there okay and deploy quickly? Corvus Blackstars as well, I'm not having that marines can actually stand up inside it to be able to quickly deploy out, they'd be running on their knees.
p5freak wrote: I feel like rhinos and LR should be twice as big. A chimera maybe 1,5 times.
Let's be honest here, all vehicles that are meant to carry units like space marines. Should be up scaled considerably and taking that into account, Baneblades would probably take up almost twice as much space as well. Especially going by that internal diagram that was released a long time ago, that showed how it's inner workings were operated.
Which means titans would also have the be scaled up as well...
IMO the problem is table space as much as anything else.
It can take infantry an entire turn to walk the length of a tank already.
There simply isn't room to upscale vehicles.
I've always seen it more that the infantry models not accurate more than the vehicles. The Heroic scale really throws the proportions off for infantry, not so much the height, but certainly the width of the infantry models and the size of weapons etc. Heroic proportions on tank weaponry doesn't help either.
If you put 28mm infantry form a different manufacturer next to IG tanks the size doesn't seem to be an issue, and if SMs were realistically proportioned I imagine they would look much more able to fit inside.
Ork trucks ans battlewagons are absolutely too small to fit 12/20 orks. I dont mind though. It's a gameplay choice to scale/design vehicles smaller to fit the gaming surface. If anything I would rather have them scale infantry down. The table is way too crowded in a 40k game.
Aash wrote: I've always seen it more that the infantry models not accurate more than the vehicles. The Heroic scale really throws the proportions off for infantry, not so much the height, but certainly the width of the infantry models and the size of weapons etc. Heroic proportions on tank weaponry doesn't help either.
If you put 28mm infantry form a different manufacturer next to IG tanks the size doesn't seem to be an issue, and if SMs were realistically proportioned I imagine they would look much more able to fit inside.
This is largely my take as well. Heroic scale is straight up goofy when it comes to overall proportions. Marines would be somewhat slimmer than their models.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Corvus Blackstars as well, I'm not having that marines can actually stand up inside it to be able to quickly deploy out, they'd be running on their knees.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: We all know that old imperial, space marines in particular are awful for scale, but the one that specifically bugs me the most is the Drukhari/Harlequin venom... That's not even that old of a kit and they managed to fudge the scale of it that much, and even for pointy ears, I'm not accepting they can ride on those smooth ergonomic wings safely.
I suppose crammed in they would fit, but also shoot competently out of it though? No, sorry... One of the worse scale mistakes going for me.
EDIT: Actually, there's a few more modern vehicles as well, ork trukks with everyone being able to shoot out of it also, that just wouldn't happen.
Come to think of it, I can think of loads of modern ones now, Stormravens, not only being an ugly kit without a forgeworld upgrade, 10 marines are meant to fit in there okay and deploy quickly? Corvus Blackstars as well, I'm not having that marines can actually stand up inside it to be able to quickly deploy out, they'd be running on their knees.
The Corvus Blackstar is actually hilariously out of scale, but it looks cool so I give it a pass It's probably the worst scaled model that I can think of.
Blndmage wrote: Wow
So is this always and forever about Imperial vehicles?
It doesn't have to be. The Tau Manta can really fit an infantry platoon, suit platoon, and 4 vehicles. It can be yours for the low price of $1700!https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-US/Tau-Manta
I believe forgeworld also released a krieg set specially designed to fit within the gorgon.
And you might actually get ten sisters in the old repressor with the hull cut to match the roof extension - one on each window, one on each door, and one on a hatch. Newer sisters are a bit taller though.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Corvus Blackstars as well, I'm not having that marines can actually stand up inside it to be able to quickly deploy out, they'd be running on their knees.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: /.../ but the one that specifically bugs me the most is the Drukhari/Harlequin venom... That's not even that old of a kit and they managed to fudge the scale of it that much, and even for pointy ears, I'm not accepting they can ride on those smooth ergonomic wings safely.
I suppose crammed in they would fit, but also shoot competently out of it though? No, sorry... One of the worse scale mistakes going for me.
It is wild to me that someone would have this take. Venoms, Starweavers (harlequin venoms), and Raiders, all come with extra models to put onto the vehicles that show both the actual scale, how the passengers hang on to/fit on them (and through that also showing off how many models would reasonably fit on there (approx 5, 6, 10, respectively)). On top of that there’s the detail that standard kabalite warriors, the unit that uses two-handed rifles, all carry retractable hook-chains to fasten themselves on their transport (so they can have their hands free), while models that only use single-handed weapons to shoot are modeled as holding on (leaving their other hand free to aim/shoot/orwhatever).
To me it seems like plenty of design work and thought went into these kits, to deal with this specifik purpose/problem specifically. It just... saddens me for it not to be recognized.
I mean ... there are certain vehicles where, I can have a guy stand at the back and fire a pistol, and he can't hit the front of it, because it's longer that the pistol's actual range. Imagine standing at the back of an M1 and firing a 9mm at someone near the front of the tank, and the bullet can't get there.
Once you have hit this situation, all bets about -any- kind of scale are off imo ...
To be fair, the existing drop pod was originally only designed to hold 5 Marines, and Forgeworld had a larger version for Dreadnoughts. Then GW took the infantry pod design, crammed twice as many harnesses in there and said it could carry 10 guys or a dreadnought. The 10 guys (or at least the 10 harnesses) fit, but even once you rip the interior stuff out it's not physically high enough in there for a dreadnought.
You know, they cant really make the items a lot bigger other wise you wont be able to put down any terrain at all.
Just think of a stompa or Gargantuan squiggoth running around. how ya'll gonna get it through terrain? The answer tends to be, we put larger distances between terrain and maybe theres even less of it when large models gets thrown on the table. So im fine with the sizes vehicles have even if it doesnt seem correct. Because the alternative would be much larger tables rather than the 60x48 or what ever we play on now, just to avoid having too little terrain.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: /.../ but the one that specifically bugs me the most is the Drukhari/Harlequin venom... That's not even that old of a kit and they managed to fudge the scale of it that much, and even for pointy ears, I'm not accepting they can ride on those smooth ergonomic wings safely.
I suppose crammed in they would fit, but also shoot competently out of it though? No, sorry... One of the worse scale mistakes going for me.
It is wild to me that someone would have this take.
Venoms, Starweavers (harlequin venoms), and Raiders, all come with extra models to put onto the vehicles that show both the actual scale, how the passengers hang on to/fit on them (and through that also showing off how many models would reasonably fit on there (approx 5, 6, 10, respectively)).
On top of that there’s the detail that standard kabalite warriors, the unit that uses two-handed rifles, all carry retractable hook-chains to fasten themselves on their transport (so they can have their hands free), while models that only use single-handed weapons to shoot are modeled as holding on (leaving their other hand free to aim/shoot/orwhatever).
To me it seems like plenty of design work and thought went into these kits, to deal with this specifik purpose/problem specifically. It just... saddens me for it not to be recognized.
This thing can hold not only it's crew, but an additional 6, and spread out and stable enough (even with chains or whatever bullcrap) to not inhibit their room to shoot from it competently and not get in each others way whilst shooting? It's an awfully scaled kit.
Beardedragon wrote: You know, they cant really make the items a lot bigger other wise you wont be able to put down any terrain at all.
Just think of a stompa or Gargantuan squiggoth running around. how ya'll gonna get it through terrain?
first question is, why does GW increase the size of their infantry in the first place if this is going to be a problem for the other models?
and why are models that are too large for the given terrain there at all (and something like a Stompa or Baneblade have about the right size)
that 40k is becoming too large, model wise, for the game size they are aiming for is problem for a long time now
but increasing the model size if infantry and adding decreasing points for that is more of a problem than having a Rhino in the correct size
at the moment, model size and table size are made to have ~15-20 Primaris and 1-2 Tanks (and maybe 1-2 Walker) on the table, everything else is already too much
having the Rhino smaller than it should be does not change anything here
I have to agree, 40k in the 3000pts and lower games does not need vehicles that size. I really really really love imperial knights and the models but they have no real place in standard 40k if you are taking a sensible path for the game (the horse bolted long ago in regards to that though so it's a moot point really), and in addition, the rules (the stompa probably being the most clear example in my mind as it is awful) never do it justice as they have to be scaled down rule wise to work in 40k also. Stompas should be a durable nightmare, you think Mortarion is hard to kill, they should be even more difficult, requiring anti-titan weaponry really to do it efficient otherwise it should take your whole army, and multiple turns, but alas, they want it in 40k so it's uber toned down (and amazingly still overpriced).
In which case, standard vehicles could afford to be a little larger and less ridiculous in regards to scale. However, after the no base comparison photos earlier, I do not think it is anywhere near as bad as I thought, it's just specific models that are horribly out rather than the whole range.
Maybe Marines and Harlequins are the 40K equivalent of college students on the way to an intergalactic kegger? You can fit a lot of college students in a car if they really want to get somewhere. Not that I would advocate having more passengers than seatbelts in a Rhino.
This thing can hold not only it's crew, but an additional 6, and spread out and stable enough (even with chains or whatever bullcrap) to not inhibit their room to shoot from it competently and not get in each others way whilst shooting? It's an awfully scaled kit.
Also, I didn't say a single thing about raiders.
what do you mean? you can fit 4 dudes easily on the platform in the back, then one on each side, hanging on to the railing. Harlequins are tiny without their base.
1/35 scale models:
M3 Scout ok as a ork truck
T-60 tank close to Leman but need wider tracks and bigger turret
Pz-III probably ok as a Leman if you cut its ass.
Same to M4 Sherman
In general, real scale models are BAD because of low profile, thin tracks and long body
Tiberias wrote: I've been wondering about this for some while now. I'm really not very good at gaging whether 40k vehicles are scaled decently or not. Of course this can hardly be generalized and it greatly depends on the specific kit. For example I think rhinos are way too small, while a land raider at least seems to be able to carry a few people.
How do you feel about the scale of 40k vehicles in general and what specific kits are the right size or too small in your opinion. Just as a disclaimer: I am aware that it would not be feasible to scale every 40k vehicle 100% accurately due to not being practical in actual gameplay, but in some cases it really breaks my immersion. For example, as much as I love harlequins, I can not understand how 5 guys would fit into or on a starweaver unless they get crammed in there like in a literal clown car....which wouldn't be too far off actually, but still
Well,
In general, 40k vehicles are far too tall for their proportions. They also tend to have absurdly large bore diameters and very short barrel lengths.
After that:
The Rhino and it's variants are pretty well proportioned, relative to the size of a Space Marine and the size of an M113.
The Leman Russ is notable for, in addition to just being way too tall, the main gun breech intersects with the commander's legs, and based on the size of the gun, the shells can't actually fit in the modelled-on ammunition bins.
However, there's a general trend that as the models themselves get bigger, their proportions get better. I speculate that it's because they can't get any taller while still looking halfway decent, but can get wider and longer. The Kratos and Baneblade are both fairly well proportioned models, though their scale is obviously impressively large.
(it’s also just a fantastic design and model)
does the backpack do?" changed between then and now.
It's probably the worst scaled model that I can think of.
