Just getting back into the hobby for the hundredth time :p I am tired of not being able to buy what GW is "offering". I was about to buy their latest box set (even forget the name now) for the awesome minis to build and paint and now I can't. I see now there are better prints from other artists now and they seem even better what GW is doing now. So I am looking to get a 3d printer. I was going to get the Ender 3, but I don't want terrain at the moment and see that Ender 3 is not really good for minis. So I am looking toward resin now.
I was thinking of getting the Phorzen Sonic 4K mini printer. I have read good things about it. Read some not so good things about it. What are your thoughts of the printer?
I almost bought it until I saw that shipping and custom fees are added. I thought Amazon Prime was free shipping. Guess coming from another part of the world is not free shipping.
Now that it's almost adding an additional $100 for shipping and customs, so instead of $500 Canadian it will be $600 Canadian and that is still with no resin bottle. So I believe I will be paying almost $700 Canadian (taxes included and rounding off).
So I started looking for something cheaper. I see Anycubic Mono SE and the Elegoo Mars 2 printer. I can't tell if they are just as good since some people claim you can't tell the difference. Can you tell the difference from 2K to 4K? Should I go for Elegoo or Anycubic? If so which one and why?
If I go with Anycubic or Elegoo the price might be cut in half but will I be loosing out? Will a 4K screen last longer than a 2K screen? I believe the Phrozen Sonic 4K mini has 3000 hours compared to the 2000 hours for the other 2K printers.
I have tried Google for a few weeks to see the differences and some of them seem quite major and the Phrozen Sonic 4K mini wins out, but then there seems awesome prints from Elegoo Mars 2 or was it the pro? Can't really tell how good the Anycubic Mono SE is.
Any tips or suggestions would be really appreciated.
First thing that you need to decide on is "how large a build volume do I need?"
If you're okay with what is currently the regular size build volume, you have options like the Anycubic Photon Mono or the SE version of it or the Elegoo Mars Pro 2. The latest and greatest from Anycubic and Elegoo have larger build plates, but as I wasn't interested in them, I didn't put the effort into researching them. They have higher resolutions, but then, they have to in order to maintain the detail of the smaller ones.
There are 4k resolution screens on smaller ones, but I'm very happy with the results that I'm getting with my printer... but then again, I was perfectly happy with my HDTV until I got a 4k TV and watched Finding Dory on it. So, don't go relying on my judgement...
I looked at the Photon Mono, decided that I definitely wanted extraction fans, so then looked at the Elegoo Mars. After that, I decided on the Photon Mono SE, because it had a couple of extra bells and whistles, but also didn't have a plastic bucket for a lid. Print wise, I'm fairly sure that all of my options would have produced similar quality prints. I've only printed in 50 micron layers, which isn't the lowest that these things will do and I'm still super impressed with that. It's the learning process that is the trick - something that you have to do no matter what machine you get.
1) Phrozen has been releasing some new Z axis connection and build plate connector parts to the market. People who have had replacement parts sent from Phrozen have had them and its presumed that they'll start appearing in newer released units.
2) When ordering keep in mind where the order is coming from - some traders on Amazon are going to be in your country, others might be overseas and direct from the firm. If its the latter that might be why you're seeing such a high postage charge. So do some hunting and see if on amazon or elsewhere; there's a more local supplier
3) A 2K and 4K screen will last the same length of time if they are the same type. Ergo mono or RGB. RGB will last a lot less long and have longer exposures per layer; whilst monoscreens will last longer and print a lot faster.
The SM4K is mono
Personally for me, 3D printing needed to be high resolution so at the time the SM4K was the only real optoin. Now there's apparently a new Mars coming out with a 4K screen on a 6inch build plate which has roughly the same resolution as the SM4K (I think its like 2um difference)/.
I have also been researching this topic a bit, and in the end I came to the conclusion that I personally want to still be on the fence for a year or two.
4K mono printers is where it's at for the quality of minis I'd be interested in, and not many 4K small build plate models in the market just yet.
I’m having issues with the AnyCubic I ordered. Not technical issues, more of the company has idiots in customer service and fulfillment. Ordered the Mono with wash and cure machine 2.0 and 1Kg of resin. Took a day longer than stated for shipping (I’d let that slide), but when it arrived they only shipped the wash and cure machine . I messaged them as there’s is no phone number to call and they said they were shipping the rest. Couple days before I get a shipping notice,and then the printer shows up, no resin . Another exchange of Emails and now the resin is on back order for two weeks . I tell them to send me any colors, they can eat the price difference, then I get a shipping notice that the resin is on its way. The tracking states that it is ready, but still has not gone to the carrier yet.
I should have gone with the Ender resin printer, Ender has not let me down yet.
Sorry, I know it’s not what you really want to hear, but it should be known how much hassle AnyCubic has been.
tauist wrote: I have also been researching this topic a bit, and in the end I came to the conclusion that I personally want to still be on the fence for a year or two.
4K mono printers is where it's at for the quality of minis I'd be interested in, and not many 4K small build plate models in the market just yet.
YMMV as usual
I was thinking to wait for bigger and cheaper. Then after doing some research, sometimes going bigger is not better. Bigger it is, the less resolution. So for mini printing, I think and please correct me if I am wrong, a smaller foot print would be sharper and clearer than a huge foot print at same 4K.
So not sure if waiting would make a difference. Cheaper yes. Much cheaper? To save $200, for me, I rather get now. If that $200 savings come with bigger footprint with same sharp resolution, then yes I might wait if I can't find a good deal now.
For all who commented, thank you. I appreciate the help. Still undecided.
3D printing is moving fast enough that if you're waiting for the next big then you'll be on the fence for years. Sometimes you've just got to dip your toes in.
You are correct, the same resolution of screen at a larger print size, will yield a lower overall resolution of print.
I've been very happy with the quality out of my SM4K in terms of the clarity and sharpness of the prints and fine details. I think for fine detail a 4K 6inch buildplate (or there abouts) and thus getting around 35um (I think the new 4K Mars 3 is 37um which isn't much different) is the best thing right now.
Most printers in that price range are based on the same series from an oem manufacturer. The output quality with the same technical data will be basically the same. For anything 28mm miniature like the xy resolution should be 50µm or better. There are basically two ranges. One around 50 and one around 30µm xy resolution. I have printers of both ranges. You only see a difference when you take the model up and inspect it. There is no noticeable difference for a playing piece. The reason why a 50µm might be interesting is build size. A 4k 50µm printer will allow you to print tanks and flyers without too much hassle. Regardless of resolution a mono display is a must. An RGB LCD has no technical advantage. The stability of the Z-Axis is important. For casing, vat, buildplate etc. I prefer metal parts over plastic. But "all metal" models are usually much more expensive. I wouldn't recommend any single manufacturer. Having said that customer support and availability of printer, resin and spares are worth to be considered. The more I experience and read about 3D printers the more it seems to me that in the consumer price segment the printer quality comes down to the printer you get. You might have a great experience with a printer model which sucks for somebody else. I have good experiences with EPAX and B9. Ok experience with Phrozen and bad experience with Uniz.
Whelp. There goes buying anything this weekend. Wife just spent most of the money. So more time for more researching if there is a bright spot to all this.
Was looking at a a Form 1 and a Form 1+ for $500 Canadian for both. Form 1 missing a vat plate. Hate to buy used. Would have to buy an Ender 3 just to make vat plate lol.
tauist wrote: I have also been researching this topic a bit, and in the end I came to the conclusion that I personally want to still be on the fence for a year or two.
4K mono printers is where it's at for the quality of minis I'd be interested in, and not many 4K small build plate models in the market just yet.
YMMV as usual
I was thinking to wait for bigger and cheaper. Then after doing some research, sometimes going bigger is not better. Bigger it is, the less resolution. So for mini printing, I think and please correct me if I am wrong, a smaller foot print would be sharper and clearer than a huge foot print at same 4K.
So not sure if waiting would make a difference. Cheaper yes. Much cheaper? To save $200, for me, I rather get now. If that $200 savings come with bigger footprint with same sharp resolution, then yes I might wait if I can't find a good deal now.
For all who commented, thank you. I appreciate the help. Still undecided.
I specifically want a 4K mono with a small plate for that reason. A large plate is not going to increase the reso of small minis in any significant way.
And with only 1 or 2 4K monos out there with a small plate, I'd rather wait until all the big manufacturers come out with their version of one. I'm sure this will happen very soon.
Personally, I only have experience with the photon mono, but I've been absolutely in love with it. Both quality wise and maintenance wise though I have gotten a couple of third party replacement parts to replace the resin vat, which kind of has an "Iphone-ish" feature where you can replace the fep very quickly/easily but only by buying an expensive prebuilt replacement part from Anycubic.
I don't have any other accessories/bells and whistles, but I've printed about 10 liters of resin worth of minis and so far I've had to replace....
lets see....
....two feps, clean resin off the screen once (screen's still kicking just fine), and I had to put down some new tape around the screen. feels pretty solid for 10 months of very heavy use.
My crossroads now is: 1) do I get a small form mono printer for minis, or 2) do I get a larger format resin printer and toss my Ender 3 onto Craigslist.
My Ender is being so temperamental right now that the idea of a printer that could do both minis and terrain (that didn't take days to print) is getting very attractive.
I specifically want a 4K mono with a small plate for that reason. A large plate is not going to increase the reso of small minis in any significant way.
And with only 1 or 2 4K monos out there with a small plate, I'd rather wait until all the big manufacturers come out with their version of one. I'm sure this will happen very soon.
I saw something that Elegoo is coming out with the Mars 3. I believe that is suppose to be 4K. I tried to find more information about it, but I can't find nothing. I guess just need to wait.
Chairman Aeon wrote:My crossroads now is: 1) do I get a small form mono printer for minis, or 2) do I get a larger format resin printer and toss my Ender 3 onto Craigslist.
My Ender is being so temperamental right now that the idea of a printer that could do both minis and terrain (that didn't take days to print) is getting very attractive.
From my research it seems to be better to use FDM (I think that is what it's called) for large terrain. Unless you have a few thousands to spare, then getting the 8K Sonic (forget the name) the thing is HUGE. Maybe either fix your ender 3 or upgrade it to another one?
Flinty wrote:Resin seems like an awfully expensive way to do scenery though.
Flinty wrote: Resin seems like an awfully expensive way to do scenery though.
Nah.
I mean it's more expensive than plastic 3d printing technically, but I was able to print up some pretty highly detailed towers and spikes and such for my drukhari board for less than a single 30$ bottle.
Resin 3d printed terrain seems to be about as expensive as MDF wood terrain, and vastly higher quality.
It will have the same volume after all, discounting supports (I don't think anyone will be crazy enough to print scenery solid in resin, and the good stuff is meant to be printed mostly supportless), so it will very much depend on the prices of the resin and the filament.
You guys seem to forget wasted filament and frustrations getting the printer to actually print. I’ve gone from half failed prints to all failed prints and can’t figure out what’s wrong. FDM is only cheaper when it works and right now I’m realizing why 3D printing is a hobby all by itself.
Both kinds can fail randomly or have issues in setting up. I do notice that FDM to get high quality fine detail prints seems ot involve more modifications and tinkering.
Chairman Aeon wrote: You guys seem to forget wasted filament and frustrations getting the printer to actually print. I’ve gone from half failed prints to all failed prints and can’t figure out what’s wrong. FDM is only cheaper when it works and right now I’m realizing why 3D printing is a hobby all by itself.
Yeah thats kinda why I love resin.
I haven't had an actually failed resin print in months. Meanwhile, my friend who started FDM about the same time I got my resin printer basically has to hover by his printer and it fails like 1/2 the time no matter what he does.
The build plate size is occasionally an annoyance when I want to do a really big model, but anything I can break up into parts I can just do multiple runs for.
Five runs to print up a titanicus warlord titan with every single possible option, babyyyyyyyy.
Chairman Aeon wrote: You guys seem to forget wasted filament and frustrations getting the printer to actually print. I’ve gone from half failed prints to all failed prints and can’t figure out what’s wrong. FDM is only cheaper when it works and right now I’m realizing why 3D printing is a hobby all by itself.
Yeah thats kinda why I love resin.
It seems that resin is just more forgiving at at least it's less time wasted when it fails. And as I move away from printing buildings (there is only so much shelf space) to printing figures, it just seems that a medium size resin printer will give the detail (and speed) of resin for miniatures with the option to squeeze moderate pieces of terrain out of it. (And it might be faster than FDM as the parts print faster and less anxiety of a 48 hour print failing at 99%)
Chairman Aeon wrote: You guys seem to forget wasted filament and frustrations getting the printer to actually print. I’ve gone from half failed prints to all failed prints and can’t figure out what’s wrong. FDM is only cheaper when it works and right now I’m realizing why 3D printing is a hobby all by itself.
Yeah thats kinda why I love resin.
It seems that resin is just more forgiving at at least it's less time wasted when it fails. And as I move away from printing buildings (there is only so much shelf space) to printing figures, it just seems that a medium size resin printer will give the detail (and speed) of resin for miniatures with the option to squeeze moderate pieces of terrain out of it. (And it might be faster than FDM as the parts print faster and less anxiety of a 48 hour print failing at 99%)
That is exactly what I have found to be the case. And if you get a photon X or whatever, youd basically be all set to print whatever.
Heck, I can put together modular terrain like zone mortalis just fine on my regular photon mono.
I love my Ender 3 Pro and my Elegoo Mars for different reasons, but would choose to print on my Mars if given the choice, every time.
I would just say for resin printing, the monochrome screens are probably the way to go with their longer life and shorter burn time. However, if looking to just dip in the toe for cheap, do not discount the basic resin printers that are $80-$100 less than their mono screen counter parts. You can pick up one of the basic Elegoo Mars units for under $200 and the Mars 2 Pro will be closer to $300. You will go through 3-4 LCD screens before you hit the cost of the M2P in the first place. I average around 150-200 runs on average on an LCD screen, which are about $25.
So I can keep everything in the same thread and not make a new one, where is the place you go for your files? Just curious to see what people print.
Since I will not have much money after I make this purchase (used twice 3d printer ibee I think it's called) will not be able to support any patreon or only one. So like to see what people are using.
I'd say the bulk is patreon as if you find designers you like you basically pay the price of one model for many many models (how many varies, some are one big model a month some are dozens or more).
In part it really depends what kind of models you want and what genre. Ergo are you after big busts and models to paint; are you after armies or one off charactres; are you more going for DnD or RPG stuff or are you going for more wargame armies.
Or do you just want cool shelf stuff to paint.
It really depends on what you are after and what your desires are.
Right now I've perhaps one sci-fi line (Aphyrion who makes awesome tanks and stuff); and the rest is mostly fantasy.
I specifically want a 4K mono with a small plate for that reason. A large plate is not going to increase the reso of small minis in any significant way.
And with only 1 or 2 4K monos out there with a small plate, I'd rather wait until all the big manufacturers come out with their version of one. I'm sure this will happen very soon.
I saw something that Elegoo is coming out with the Mars 3. I believe that is suppose to be 4K. I tried to find more information about it, but I can't find nothing. I guess just need to wait.
I specifically want a 4K mono with a small plate for that reason. A large plate is not going to increase the reso of small minis in any significant way.
And with only 1 or 2 4K monos out there with a small plate, I'd rather wait until all the big manufacturers come out with their version of one. I'm sure this will happen very soon.
I saw something that Elegoo is coming out with the Mars 3. I believe that is suppose to be 4K. I tried to find more information about it, but I can't find nothing. I guess just need to wait.
Oh dang. I think it's too late for me now. I am about to pick up a 3d printer today. A bit more than what I wanted to pay for, but including 3 bottles of resin, uv lights, sonic washer, just to hard to pass up.
Wish me luck and I can figure out how to use it this weekend.
Yeah, I was on the fence for a while with the Phrozen SM4k and thought the same when I saw the announcement for the Mars 3. The „early bird“ discount (limited to 100 pieces or so) was gone in the time it took me to type my address. But I still ordered for the regular price. Please be aware that the preorder package is limited to 5000 pieces, and still available right now. Not sure what the retail price will be going forward.
Whatever you don't buy the anycubic mono x. Every print failed due to the sensor not recognizing the z-axis, not t. The last test print I did also failed but then punched a hole in the FEP, ruining the screen forever.
I'm in the process of returning it through amazon. I'm lucky I bought it through amazon they tend to just throw things out without the hassle of checking it. Nearly had an 800$ paperweight.
I got my 3d printer. Uniz Ibee. After 3 days buying it, I finally tried it out. Made to many mistakes, first print was a failure. Not even sure what I did wrong lol.
Back to Google and YouTube now and learn what to do.
Anyone know how I can use third party software like lyche (spelling?) or the other popular one (name eludes me at the moment) and then transfer it for Uniz Ibee?
So much to learn. Now I see why this is a hobby unto its self.
Ameralabs town is a great one. Print it - clean it - cure it - show the 4 sides and top for feedback from people. It can greatly help you dial in settings right and saves you a lot of time and resin over printing models that might or might not fail.
2) Make sure your temperature for the environment is at least 20C or above (from what I can gather over 20 is mandatory for resins to work right; up to 30 results in improved performance; over 30 and things can start to tail off and at 35 things go wrong for some resins but it varies resin to resin)
3) The two popular support and slicing software packages are Lychee and Chitu. Chitu has recently released their improved pro-version, however its a very costly option right now. Lychee is much cheaper and to get started you likely don't need pro (it just unlocks full support adjustments and removes the banner add when you slice).
You could create a supported model in Lychee, saving it as a lys (which keeps supports and model separate for easy editing) and then export it right after (file menu just below saving options) as an STL. I'd assume that would retain all the supports and it would just be an STL file then which Uniz could read.
1) You can use advanced mode when adding supports. This basically means you can do whatever you want with them. By pressing spacebar (enables advanced mode) you can move the start end end point of the "joints" of the support; drag them around, shift things. You can even make a support go to "nowhere" which can be useful as you can then branch off lots of little supports from that.
2) A few raft types including the very popular line triangle raft
3) No ad when slicing
4) A few other features that I can't recall.
Honestly its a tiny cost per month and the more you get into 3D printing the more the advanced features will become useful.
The basic free version does most of what you need when getting started and if you're using pre-supported models you don't have to have pro at all.
No problem - Lychee is a powerful tool and the developers of it are pretty active and reactive to feedback on their discord channel.
I often think Chitu is more like software made by someone who tells you what features you want/need whilst Lychee is made for what you need. Which represents itself in differences in how the software works, what features there are and even what's behind the pay-wall (eg chitu locks "better" auto supporting behind their pay wall)
Yeah, the Jupiter seems awesome, but just not sure I need it that big until resin prices get cheaper. It would take $40 just to get enough resin in the vat to print!
I recently jumped in on a Saturn a few months back and it is such a great machine. I abused my Mars (basic 2nd series, not a Pro) for almost two years and had nothing but great prints, albeit a few LCD replacements, which were cheap and easy. But I probably had 600-700 print runs during that time.
I will say if you did go with the Mars 3 with the higher resolution and all to make a mostly minis, that was a super solid choice. While you may not be able to fit the 30-40 minis on a build plate you can on the Saturn, you should get better prints and have a solid machine.
The Mars is awesome. I can print a few dozen marines. Or I can print a super heavy tank. It’s amazing the stuff you can fit in the build plate. And the quality of the prints is excellent. You may have issues sometimes but it’s because you didn’t orient thing rights or didn’t have enough supports. But you cannot go wrong with it.
I've been researching this the past several weeks. Like most I was bouncing between Anycubic, Elegoo, and Phrozen. I eliminated Anycubic because aftermarket issues seem to be handled poorly, ie they are out of stock in replacement parts and you're SOL til they get them. I can't remember why I eliminated the Phrozen, perhaps because the cost didn't justify a higher price or there was something that seemed like a good design idea but in practice was annoying. Either way I landed with wanting Elegoo.
Now, do I want the Mars 2 Pro, Saturn, or new Mars 3? Well, I don't expect to be printing hundreds of mind's, massive figures, or in a rush to get stuff done so Saturn is out. I've watched several comparison and review videos regarding the Mars 3 and the ONLY notable difference in end result is time to produce. Everything else is fluff. Minor larger build plate, 4k vs 2k. This doesn't affect quality of the mini, proven in the comparison videos on YouTube. You want better quality, go smaller layers .03mm instead of 0.05mm. And that's for looking under a microscope or very slight improvement. The Mars 3 won't be available until November if you didn't pre-order, I spoke directly with a rep.
So what do you get for $60 more, slightly larger build plate and faster build time. Oh and if you want the sleek look. The rest is numbers that you won't care about a couple runs in. Thus waiting til November, the noted z axis wobble, and the fact that if you want a cleaning and cure station you need the new X model to fit the bigger build plate instead of the plus, which is two machines instead of one (up to you if that's positive or negative), might as well go Mars 2 Pro.
Just note that with a 3D print there are 2 axis of resolution. There's the Z axis which is what you mean when you talk about using a smaller layer; and then there's the X/Y which are controlled by the resolution of the screen and light setup underneath.
For example the Sonic Mini 4K gets to around 0.035mm in X/Y resolution (often said as 35um). Companies don't make this as apparent as the screen resolution itself in marketing, mostly because smaller prints would always appear better compared to bigger ones (4K resolution at 6 inches is going to be finer than 4K spread out over 12 inches).
There are some Z axis issues with the Mars 3 and one person I know has noted that the build plate wobbles side to side a bit in its housing. Phrozen seem to be getting their Z axis sorted out with an upgrade (I assume new machines from them will come with it and its being sold as an aftermarket upgrade kit going on sale end of October or you can buy it direct from them right now but shipping is not cheap).
If you have a printer you know more than I do as all my knowledge is from reading or watching videos, however I believe the xy for the Mars 2 Pro is .050mm versus the Mars 3 aand Sonic Mini at .035mm. That said, it's a 15 micrometer difference. Your eyes can't pick that up. Again, stats and specs versus reality. If you can show clear quality improvement visible to the naked eye then sure, the lower is practically better, but if you aren't making jewelry casting mold pieces, that 15 micrometer won't matter on a mini.
Sadly I've only got the one printer so I can't cross compare things. However finer grained resolutions won't just be about detail levels, but also about the crispness of detail edges and the smoothness of gradients and the like.
We are indeed into areas that are subtle though and not night and day different. 3D printing for the consumer has fasted entered a phase where quality is now small gains rather than night and day differences. Though its interesting to see that projector screen systems are also starting to make an appearance (there's two being kickstarted right now). They appear to show much crisper than even 4K resolution on detail edges; though there's some speculation that they might not yet be good enough on all details (some worry that they are over-sharp on layer lines); but until they are out in the wild its hard to say
Certainly the Mars 2 Pro remains VERY popular as a good quality starter printer.
Yes, the DLP hobbyist printer KS almost had me at the point why you see the angry detective ripping down his case files with all the connecting lines off the wall because they arrested the wrong guy who got framed.
Then I realized that as someone who also only wants one printer, I'm not going to buy in on new tech for my first time. Sure, DLP is used commercially but at a whole different level. There will be bugs and kinks to work out. I want tried and true with a wealth of resources as a newbie. I'll let the officianados cut their teeth on the new tech, work out any issues, and maybe join them in a few years on DLP.
HeroesFall wrote: If you have a printer you know more than I do as all my knowledge is from reading or watching videos, however I believe the xy for the Mars 2 Pro is .050mm versus the Mars 3 aand Sonic Mini at .035mm. That said, it's a 15 micrometer difference. Your eyes can't pick that up. Again, stats and specs versus reality. If you can show clear quality improvement visible to the naked eye then sure, the lower is practically better, but if you aren't making jewelry casting mold pieces, that 15 micrometer won't matter on a mini.
That is correct, 0.05 vs 0.035 on the xy axis.
I'll probably be able to do some comparisons soonish, as my Mars 3 just arrived.
I can say on my Mars (basic model) compared to my Saturn, you are very correct that it is not necessarily the x/y resolution giving you prints you can tell are better when comparing the .050 v .047 v .035, but calibrating your machine up front based on the resin is key.
I never ran any exposure tests on my Mars and always had what I thought were great prints (they always came out good), which has the .047 res, but with the Saturn and a .050 res (basically the same) I did run exposure tests to dial the exposure time AND the light-off delay time based on my favorite resin - wow, what a difference!!
So, go with the Mars 2 Pro with the mono LCD for long life, settle in on a resin you will predominantly use, run exposure tests (takes literally 2-3 minutes), be sure to learn how supports work and support your models well and you will have a pleasureable and long printing life!!
What resin you pick certainly plays a big part. Some of the higher end technical resins can achieve levels of detail and sharpness that lower end resins can't achieve even with the best printing machines.
An interesting mix I read of recently from someone else was mixing AMD-3 with Phrozen Aqua 4K in a ratio of 6:1. The AMD-3 is a high end detail/model resin, but is more brittle. Aqua 4K is still a high detail resin, but not as good, however its a far more durable resin once cured. Mixing the two gives you a high performance higher durability resin.
I want to express thanks that no one is getting irritated with what I've said. I want to express that I'm not trying to come across as an expert. Just someone who has myself gotten frustrated with so many options and as a technical person, I love numbers. In this case, however it seems to be a rabbit hole of options, as someone else expressed, paralysis by analysis, when you don't really gain much of anything (barring faster print time or larger print area).
Once I get my printer I will 110% be asking you guys for pointers and help. I'm elated to see this section of the forum. Like water washable resin. I read that supposedly it shrinks more, but all the videos I've watched of people printing with water washable NONE of them said they had to rescale their minis to achieve 32mm or whatever scale they were going for. Another example, exposure, no idea what, how, or why I need to optimize that.
For reference, here are the videos I was referring too regarding the Mars 3 vs Mars 2 Pro. If you plan to print a lot of minis, I 100% think getting the 3 over the 2 Pro is a good idea (assuming the z-axis movement is resolved in the production run). Grats to the person that just received theirs.
HeroesFall wrote: I believe the xy for the Mars 2 Pro is .050mm versus the Mars 3 aand Sonic Mini at .035mm. That said, it's a 15 micrometer difference. Your eyes can't pick that up.
You absolutely can tell the difference. It's not a direct comparison because of mono screen versus not, but I have some side by side comparisons on my thread. OG Photon vs Sonic Mini 4K. Pictures aren't the best but the most glaring difference for XY resolution increase is in the small details. Much sharper on the Mini 4K prints.
If you went to a mono screen from an RGB screen, I'd say it's clearly the reason, which I dont think anyone would debate mono does better than RGB in detail. If you did have a mono on the first as well, disregard.
That said, looks like you used a different resin. Were all your parameters on the same except xy? Otherwise it's an invalid comparison. The videos I posted were same resin, same parameters, all on mono screens.
HeroesFall wrote: If you went to a mono screen from an RGB screen, I'd say it's clearly the reason, which I dont think anyone would debate mono does better than RGB in detail. If you did have a mono on the first as well, disregard.
That said, looks like you used a different resin. Were all your parameters on the same except xy? Otherwise it's an invalid comparison. The videos I posted were same resin, same parameters, all on mono screens.
The prints that I have pictures of aren't a 1:1 comparison, and I said that, but I have seen a 1:1 in the flesh.
You 100% can tell the difference in 35um vs 50um XY is really all I wanted to point out. My point still stands, even if my example wasn't the best support for it.
For the rest, enjoy the ride. You seem to be massively over-analyzing to me, but you do you. You will settle on something eventually and then you will find out what a rabbit hole this hobby really is. lol
Personally, I'm waiting until DLP is a bit more commonplace for my next toy. The Solus was a nice printer but really pricey. Anycubic's new offering has me interested but cautiously so. Having said that, the Sonic Mini 4K is excellent for miniatures, available right now, and would be my recommendation for the time being.
Just in case anyone else is in the market for a new entry level printer, I'll throw in a recommendation for the Voxelab Proxima. It's basically the same spec as a Mars 2 or Photon Mono in terms of resolution, size and screen, but at least in the UK on Amazon it's usually £40-60 cheaper. I got one a few weeks back to replace my dead Photon and it's an excellent machine giving me very reliable and high-quality prints even with settings eyeballed from my Photon ones rather than properly calibrated. The screen might be ever so slightly less powerful than the competetion (printing at 3.5s at 0.04mm versus the 2.5ish I often see quoted for the Mars) but it's still printing almost twice as fast as my Photon was and the consistency is superb.
Surprisingly, given it's cheaper, you also get a metal vat instead of the plastic one I believe the Mars 2 and Photon Mono come with, and the build quality in general seems very robust. I can pnly assume the price is drawn from a) the fact that Voxelab (a part of Flashforge, actually) are able to build them cheaper, or b) a deliberate attempt to get into the market undercutting the two bigger players.
Valuable thread. I will be checking this thread in the next months as I gear up get in. Anyways just want to post thanks for the discussion. I hope that people will continue to post and update…
That is right, as there only seem to be incremental changes at the price point casual hoobyists want to pay. The more expensive ones do leap a bit more and you pay for it. As the technology gets older, it gets cheaper and other printers will follow suit with features and benefits only on costly machines now.
I am super happy with my Saturn right now with the build size and print quality. Sure, there are some a bit bigger, slightly better printing, but will hold any upgrading for quite some time until the laser DLP printers get as big a build area as the Saturn at the sub-$500 price (I will be waiting for a while I think, but you never know!)
Right now they don't really exist for consumer printers. There's two kickstarters running right now from two reputable printer firms to make them and Phrozen might be doing one too (they teased a new printer appearing today with a quick top of product shot but nothing below to tell what kind it is).
Basically its the top end for professional printers; but those run into vast sums of money. Consumer wise they are untested and we don't really know the ins and outs. In theory they should be superior to LCD printers in that the projector setup should last far longer than even monocrome LCD screens and the resolution should be higher than even 4K Screens (even though the projector stated resolution is less the way it transmits the light to the print results in getting more out of less whilst the LCD screens there's more light scatter).
I'd say if you've money to burn jump in now on one of the KS; but otherwise wait until next year and see how they fare in the market. These first ones might also raise issues that are only resolved in latter models/with upgrades/repairs.
One issue that has been raised already with a few of the early photos/videos is that layerlines might be sharper/more firmly defined. However adjustments to the layer height and AA settings and more could resolve that issue.
That said I'd say right now waiting is best unless you've money to burn on a printer that "might" work well or might have some odd quirks.
I do know that Atlas is still working on an LCD printer motherboard and setup so there's every chance that the two technologies could run side by side for a good while. Esp as 4K printers already show really good resolutions.
Thanks. I won’t be able to commit until spring anyways… no stable home just yet but should be able to settle somewhere by then, … tired of living in basically a hotel room in the mountains.
MDSW wrote: Agree - I believe DLP for the masses in an economic and reliable format is a ways off and what is available now will more than support your needs.
Homestly, the current quality/price range is at a good spot fot the hobbyist. The current printers I have can make smaller details than I can paint anyway >_>
This thread is exactly what I was looking for. I am coming off the fence and contemplating starting out in 3D printing from what I have seen over the past month or two in my research. Elegoo's Mars 3 does interest me a lot, but am hesitant in pulling the trigger on something that I can only use one software company with the current firmware. The talk is that there will be a SDK for other slicer packages, but I would prefer to wait and see on that.
So I started to look around at other companies and found Phrozen which brought up two questions. What do people think of the Phrozen mini 4K? Does the 8K look like it really will make a difference? I ask because the 8K have the same software issues as Mars 3 will have on top of obscene shipping charges($150 shipping to US ) due to supply chain blockages that don't simply allow these to be shipped via ship any time soon. Having said that, it does look like it will produce awesome prints. Whereas the 4K is available now, has the older firmware that allows for other programs to run on it apparently, and appears to be in stock in the US right now. Basically which one would be a better starter printer in your opinion, or am I going in the wrong direction all together?
The last talk I've heard is that the SDK by Chitu is functionally (and legally with their contract) useless for anyone wanting to actually use it. That said the lock has been cracked and there are options out there now that let you slice with other slicers.
The Sonic Mini 4K (I own one) is a great printer if it works. It's core problem is that the Z axis wasn't best built for the level of printer and it can flex. Some people never have an issue, others do and the quality control has been a problem that plagued the printer. It has improved over time since its launch.
There's also a brand new Z axis assembly going on sale end of this month (3d Jake has the distribution of it but I don't think there's a US store distributing it); or you can get it direct from Phrozen (high shipping cost though).
I would assume newer units will come with the new axis already installed, but I don't know when the stock for them will be in the market so it might be prudent to ask any store which version they have. They do tend to sell out fast which suggests that stock cycles fairly quickly so there's a good chance of it not being long before new ones ship with the new assembly.
If you have a solid assembly it should print great.
The new 8K has a MUCH better looking Z axis all round including a duel rail. The downside is, as you note, the shipping cost for direct shipping is very high right now. In addition its a new printer and thus if you do take it on you are on the front lines to find out if it has any odd quirks. The Mars 3, for example, has a quirk where the build plate wobbles on some copies.
First runs of printers can have issues and if you are getting started I'd nudge you toward established printers first. It just removes a huge bunch of "what if" problems from the equation of getting started.
Thanks Overread. The issue with flexing for the sonic is definitely an issue that I want to avoid. I waited on the Mini 4K for a couple of days and it went out of stock on Amazon in the US. Now it looks like it is back in stock today. Is there a way for us the consumer to know if they have a new z-axis arm or not?
TinyLegions wrote: Thanks Overread. The issue with flexing for the sonic is definitely an issue that I want to avoid. I waited on the Mini 4K for a couple of days and it went out of stock on Amazon in the US. Now it looks like it is back in stock today. Is there a way for us the consumer to know if they have a new z-axis arm or not?
Asking the seller directly might be the only way. Even if Phrozen are sending them out now there might be all kinds of supply lag going on between shipments moving around and local warehouses and supply and such. Asking the seller is the only way
Bringing this subject back up. Since I was reviewing these things last year, life happened and delayed my purchase. I see that phrozen has a sale on for almost all of their existing printers. Now I thinking of pulling the trigger on the 4k Mini, but I wanted to know what people thought about the 4K Mighty. The reason why I am interested in the 4K Mighty is that with a larger plate, I will always be able to do terrain pieces until it dies, but I may switch to something with more detail once I get the hang of 3D printing. Does anyone have any thoughts on which one is the better starter printer for me?
I've not checked prices, but if the Saturn 2 is cheaper than the Mighty 4K then I'd get the Saturn 2 without question. 8K printer at that size is a fantastic thing.
I've personally got my eye on the Saturn and Mighty 8K (which is more expensive as well).
Saturn 2 is 550€ /550$ on preorder, mine should be here in about 2 weeks and I'll report back. So far reviews have been stellar. I think it will be the machine to beat for the next 1-2 years.
Saturn 1 was certainly a top machine that I know a lot of people loved and hit a sweet spot for merchants with a good build plate and affordable price.
Phrozen have gone down extras with webcam and such on the Mighty 8K and that's pushed their price up and might just have meant that they don't have quite enough special features to tempt people over the more affordable Saturn 2.
Thanks for your help guys. I also saw that EPAX is selling their 8K for $940 and a refurbished 4K for $540. Not sure which way that I want to go on this, but EPAX is 2.5 hours in the car from me, and free shipping for larger orders. Size may be an issue for me, which is something that I just thought of, so I this all may be moot for me.
Perhaps the mid sized printers will have more price elasticity in the coming year or two than the smaller lines. At least until the Mars 4 comes out with an 8K resolution, or Anycubic comes out with a DLP that is NOT a postage stamp for a build plate.
I have an original Saturn, like the ones on Amazon for $332 right now. I have to say if you are on the fence about a larger scale resin printer, this is a steal and a beast of a machine. I totally love mine and while I am in the processing of abusing my Saturn right now, it is a workhorse and will look to where the market is in the next few years if I even need to upgrade.
Those that jumped on the Saturn 2, I am super jealous, but know I have no regrets on by basic Saturn and with the price of them now, if you are still printing on a 'tiny' build plate, you need to make the move!!
MDSW wrote: I have an original Saturn, like the ones on Amazon for $332 right now. I have to say if you are on the fence about a larger scale resin printer, this is a steal and a beast of a machine. I totally love mine and while I am in the processing of abusing my Saturn right now, it is a workhorse and will look to where the market is in the next few years if I even need to upgrade.
Those that jumped on the Saturn 2, I am super jealous, but know I have no regrets on by basic Saturn and with the price of them now, if you are still printing on a 'tiny' build plate, you need to make the move!!
The regular Saturn is an absolutely great machine, so you should totally continue using it. I only got the Saturn 2 because I was in the market for a bigger one and the timing was good enough that I managed to get it for $475.
Pulled the trigger this morning on a Phrosen Mini 4K. Amazon had a deal on them that I could not pass up. I did check out the larger printers, and unfortunately, I don't have enough space for them at this moment.
TinyLegions wrote: Pulled the trigger this morning on a Phrosen Mini 4K. Amazon had a deal on them that I could not pass up. I did check out the larger printers, and unfortunately, I don't have enough space for them at this moment.
Mini 4K had some issues at its launch, but pretty much all the new stock out there now will have the new Zaxis build arm setup so you should be perfectly fine
I got one (old build arm then upgraded it) and its a great machine. Certainly made me go wow when I got prints off it. Was a bit - brutal on the learning curve (I think some machines a little more forgiving to get started with) but its darn amazing when you get prints off!
@ Valander: Great to hear, hopefully it works out for me.
@ Overread: I agree with you about the new arms should be on what I just ordered, however I am going to be watching the arm closely to see if there are any issues with while I am running it for a while. It does not look like it came from a resell, so it should be newer stock. You want to PM me any tips that might help me starting out with this machine, I would appreciate it. Or anyone else for that matter too!
So for a block of general getting started tips (which honestly work for ANY resin printer).
1) https://atlas3dss.com/learn Check out the Ameralabs town print and video. Best step in calibrating your printer and getting aid with it. There are a range of calibration prints out there, some very flat ones print super fast, but they are often affected by the burn layers, meanwhile some others are very basic in shape and mostly tend to show that your printer at least prints something. The Town print is much more accurate and, correctly used, can help calibrate your printer really well.
One trick some do is to use one of the flat prints to get the settings close, then use the town print to finish up and fine tune settings.
You can find lots of settings online, but even the best might not be right for your printer, resin bottle and atmospheric conditions; so you always have to calibrate. Also check calibration when changing to a new resin bottle (if you buy bottles in bulk chances are you can skip that as they will most likely all be the same mix; buying now and then you are more likely to get bottles from different production batches)
They also have a bunch of videos worth watching on how to do supports as well. If you use discord the Atlas Discord is a wealth of information and advice.
2) https://printhunter.org/3d-printing-articles/ I should really write more, but right now there are two articles there. One is all about temperature and heating how important it is. The other is VERY important and is about PPE - ergo all the safety gear you need to keep safe. I strongly recommend reading the safety one at the very least, resin printing is great, but if you don't treat it with respect and take the proper precautions you can injure yourself and others.
3) You will get more fails at the start as you learn things. This can be very frustraiting because it feels like you never get anywhere; but each time you get a fail just work slowly and steadily through it. Chances are you'll come out the other end learning a bit more.
A few rough theories I've picked up that generally work well
1) Burn/base/bottom layer theory
a) Have at least 0.2mm depth of bottom/burn layers
b) After those layers ensure the remainder of your raft depth, plus a little more, is covered by transitional layers. If your printer doesn't support transitional layers, use more bottom/burn layers.
The idea here is to cover the raft plus a little bit of the start of the columns with more exposure to ensure that they print well and strongly, giving you a good foundation for the rest of the supports and model.
As you can see the number of layers you'll need will depend on both your layer thickness and raft thickness. However as most presupported models use a 0.5mm thick raft, that's a good generlaist number to work with. How many layers you add extra depends a bit on your layer thickness and there's no hard and fast rule. Eg with 0.05mm thickness you might only use one extra layer whilst with 0.02mm thickness you might use two or three more layers.
Transitional layers are not too complex, they just reduce the exposure time from your burn time to your normal exposure time, in equal steps. It basically "eases" the exposure from one to the other.
2) Lift speeds. This is like taking off a plaster, you either peel slow or rip fast. Between the two speeds is where the risk zone is where you've more chance of a fail.
In general the limits are 60 or slower or 180 or faster. Either end works on most printers. All printers should use slower speeds for the burn/bottom layers; meanwhile for regular you can generally pick either approach - slow or fast.
Note whilst some very big printers are not advised to go too fast; there is generally no upper limit for fast lifting speeds, so you generally go as fast as the printer can go (180 and 240 are the common top speeds).
Personally with the SM4K I've never felt comfortable with its build on the Z axis to use the fast speeds (also called vroom speeds). The new build arm is vastly superior and can likely take it, but its not something I've tried with it.
3) Build Plate Levelling. As long as you approach this sensibly its generally pretty easy to get right and only gets complicated if you are printing directly on the build plate (no raft) and if you want very accurate print dimensions.
However generally speaking whilst many people will say "the build plate isn't level" as a solution to many fails; it is, in my observation and experiences, often one of the rarer faulty parts.
As long as you take your time, tighten the screws slowly and in an alternate pattern (just like doing the bolts up on a tyre) you should be fine.
I personally level with the VAT installed (no resin in it of course). But you can also remove it and use the paper method. Remember the paper method won't have the build plate stopping the paper moving, its about ensuring even pressure on the paper.
And the first test with water washable is pretty good, too (I didn't clean it much, though, but you can see it did everything correctly and there's no overexposure)
Flinty wrote: Awesome. Are you running some AA there? I can’t see any layer lines at all.
Default settings, let me check... yeah, AA grey level 3 (possible values 0 to 8) and Image Blur Pixel 2 (possible values 2,3,4).
In the photos I can barely see some very faint layer lines on the chest area of the dark reaper proxy, but yeah, quality is pretty great. On hand it's mostly perfect and probably I wouldn't need to use thinner layers for "gaming quality" minis.
A resounding success!! The AA can be tricky, as I find a lower layer and lower, if any at all, AA setting will give you the best prints, but certainly a longer print time. AA and image blur can smooth out the layer lines, but also blurs the mini's details. Your details seem to have come out great, as they started as good, clean sculpts and that is not always the case with what we print!
I might try to turn off AA and image blur and run at .4 and another at .3 for small minis and compare. You might find the lower layer does not give a noticeable improvement given the longer print time and even the higher layer with the AA and blur gives a good enough print. Once you find that sweet spot, it is great.
. I messaged them as there’s is no phone number to call and they said they were shipping the rest. Couple days before I get a shipping notice,and then the printer shows up, no resin 
. Another exchange of Emails and now the resin is on back order for two weeks 
